View Full Version : Racism in Sweden
Swedish link: http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=531981
What is this all about then? Well we have alot of racism in Sweden... In fact we have twenty times as many racist crimes than our neighbours in Denmark. This is something that newspapers allways write about.
But this article in DN (Dagens Nyheter), a large Swedish newspaper, bring racism in to new lights. It is not racist Swedes but racist immegrants in Malmö where allmost 50% of the population are immegrants.
Robbery is a common crime in Malmö. Statistics prove it and my family there confirms it. The remarkable about the 11 robbers which are being interviewed in this article is that they all only rob Swedes. They 'are at war with the Swedes'.
"A wonderfull feeling spreads in your body when you rob", one of them says. "You feel happy".
It goes on...
"Power for me is when Swedes lay down and kiss my feet" a youth says. "It is so easy to rob Swedes, so easy."
"The Swedes do nothing. They just give us their things. They are sissies."
Ok this makes me very sad. I can get beaten up and robbed just because I look like a Swede. This is pure racism but the politicians ignore it. It is us Swedes that are racists they teach us. Grr... :dizzy2: Everything has to be so PC these days. In Sweden you can barely speak about the failed immegrationpolitics because then you are labled as a racist.
In 2050 Swedes will be in minority. More crime, more violent immegrant gangs, more povertry. This country is about to die...
I wouldn't say that the country's about to die, but welcome to North American race relations.
Papewaio
03-26-2006, 21:02
So what do Swedes look like? Would I be able to pass as one?
Sure this isn't more of a socio-economic war then a racial one? I assume that rich immigrants aren't doing the mugging...
doc_bean
03-26-2006, 21:02
You really do sound like sissies...
All criminals should be threated equal, regardless of their etnic background.
And you shouldn't just give up your money, at least put up a fight...
You really do sound like sissies...
All criminals should be threated equal, regardless of their etnic background.
And you shouldn't just give up your money, at least put up a fight...
Excuse me but it is not that easy when they come five to one and all of them wear knifes! Resist and you risk to die...
doc_bean
03-26-2006, 21:13
Excuse me but it is not that easy when they come five to one and all of them wear knifes! Resist and you risk to die...
Ah sorry, from your quotes it sounded like it were single robbers, not group robbings. there indeed isn't much you can do then. :embarassed:
Have you (Sweden) considered camera security ? It would probably help identify the robbers and increase the safety.
So what do Swedes look like? Would I be able to pass as one?
Sure this isn't more of a socio-economic war then a racial one? I assume that rich immigrants aren't doing the mugging...
Exactly. What does a Swede look like?
I know a guy; He has very dark hair. One of these gangs came to him and the leader asked: "Are you swedish". "Yes", the poor guy answered and guess what happened... Well in a second he realized that he ought to have answered no.
Pure racism I say again. They call us "Svennar". All the time. It is a negative word on Swedes, just like n-iggers for black people. Politicians allways scream about the socio-economic shit. I am sure that that is a major factor but alot of poor Swedes and other poor westerners allmost never gang up and rob people... They are allways from Asia, Africa, South-America or maybee Balcan. Allways...
Doc_bean, I really agree that more cameras are needed. I don't know how that is going though...
YanTraken
03-26-2006, 21:38
HI there.
I`m not a racist,please remember that:
I like Swedes and the rest of scandinavians,and I wish them what good is.I see them as a peaceful nations(since XVII cent.;) which only want to live and grove better. A lot of immigrants had chosen scandinavia because they had such a vision.BUt as we all know some of them are ,or becomes criminals.Time of calm scandinavian societies has passed-and it`s sad.You are forced to reform Your police and judge system to make it more efficient.Unfortunately!
In my opinion because of such immigrant behavior Your immigrant law needs to be changed!Mabe there is a time when a nation has to say Stop?
I I am sure that that is a major factor but alot of poor Swedes and other poor westerners allmost never gang up and rob people... They are allways from Asia, Africa, South-America or maybee Balcan. Allways...
That might be because westerners dont normally need to mug people to provide for themselves + there families...:2thumbsup:
Crazed Rabbit
03-26-2006, 22:10
Sounds like you guys need some more of these:
http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/images/0250411.gif
The Mossberg 500, 18 and 1/2 inch barrel, 6 shell capacity.
Or, if you're walking in the city, a law that allows the concealed carrying of weapons:
https://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6259/cz75sp015re.jpg
The Ceska Zbrojovka (CZ) SP-01 9mm pistol.
Are people awakening to the fact that perhaps some immigrants don't want to integrate, they want to take over?
Crazed Rabbit
Xenophobe...
They only want to take over the local crime niches. The dull menial jobs are probably theirs already.
I will restrain myself from presenting examples of what I have experianced and heard. Mostly couse there are so many, and also, becouse some stories really doesnt make sense.
Now, the problem is that the politicans, being cowards, never talk of this as an major issue. They simple dont give a shit about people living in areas where they are to scared to be outdoors at night.
Before I was very open to more immigrants coming here, to have a rather "open arms" politic... screw that, I have had enough of people trying to beat me up. I know im being very radical, but I'm sick to death of it.
Im turning more and more into an isolationistic socialist every day. The problem is tho, that most immigrants do behave, they work, pay taxes etc, then there are "the scum of the earth"... who doesnt.
Another problem is the fact that right-wing extremist and fascist groups gain support and sympathy, their words sounds better and better as this just keeps on going.
In the end, its our politicians who have failed us, horribly.
i think its hard to blame politicians, without an "open arms" policy people would still try to illegally migrate, there are examples in UK where people have died trying...
the fascist groups are a problem as they never consider both sides of the problem, and so hardly represent the real points "against" illegal migration (as such)
i think its hard to blame politicians, without an "open arms" policy people would still try to illegally migrate, there are examples in UK where people have died trying...
Actually it is... It is working quite well in Denmark. I think the difference between Denmark and UK is that in Denmark you need to prove who you are at basically all corners. Banks, social, hospitals, libraries, even work... Anything where any service is needed. You can of course cheat it, but it is simply not worth the effort.
Now, the problem is that the politicans, being cowards, never talk of this as an major issue. They simple dont give a shit about people living in areas where they are to scared to be outdoors at night.
I'm sorry for that. We had it similar here in Denmark until 2001. I guess since you are a Swede you know what has happened since, not that I particularly like everything about it.
But the fact is that your politicians have been raving about what Denmark has done. I mean they have really been giving us a piece of their mind. Now they can't go back on that. You know how politicians are about being wrong about big, slow issues, they simply can't do that.
You need a new generation of politicians, but sadly I think they will get either kept down by the older generations (who will only let people of their own beliefs in), or get put into the cold by the Swedish media.
I think you have a party that is similar to Dansk Folkeparti (Danish Peoples Party), but it is never allowed by the media to get it's thoughts out to the public. Now, I don't like DF, bu I certainly prefer them over nazis (which you incidentally have a lot more of I'm sad to say) or the apologists of the far left (or one specific party in the center grrrr).
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 00:54
Now, I don't like DF, bu I certainly prefer them over nazis
And you prefer a Tuborg over a Carlsberg, it's the same deal.
Sasaki Kojiro
03-27-2006, 00:58
Sounds like Sweden could use legalized guns.
It's not a gun thread, man.
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 00:59
Sounds like Sweden could use legalized guns.
Yes, let's start a street war instead of solving the problem, jeez.
Strike For The South
03-27-2006, 01:03
So they rob yall just becuase your sweedish?
Papewaio
03-27-2006, 01:04
Sweet, lets throw gas on the bonfire so it minimises harm! :dizzy2:
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 01:21
That would solve the problem, though. As far as I can tell, Sweden is in a very good position to enforce registration and responsible ownership of guns for home protection. Look at the American statistics if you like, guns stop home invasions. With a good system in place to ensure it's difficult to sell guns illegally I think Sweden could have the best of both worlds.
I'm not trying to start a gun thread, but I think it's a shame you guys have such a knee-jerk reaction to such an obvious solution.
Well, apparently the problem isnt home invasion.
It's so funny, there's a problem, the average american answer is bomb it or give them guns. Terrorism is obviously founded at social issues (most of the times, naturally there is the few insane ones, but they are out of pedagogical (sp?) reach) as is with immigration the social problem - which you cannot sovle with arms, maybe if you started looking a bit harder you'd find the root of the problem, and you know, just like weed, if you cut away the plant it will still flower next spring, cut the root and it's gone for good.
Guns wont solve the problem, that's a fact.
Kagemusha
03-27-2006, 01:22
I think that the key problem is that the Swedish Immigration policy has been very liberal even on a Scandinavian scale. You just have simply too many immigrants that they wont assimilate in your culture anymore.Also the concentrating the housing of immigrants on certain areas have produced Ghettos. I think the main problem you face now is that these Gangstas you talk about are infact mostly Swedish citizens born in Sweden from immigrant parents.
Is this the case or am i shooting in the dark?
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 01:24
Also the concentrating the housing of immigrants on certain areas have produced Ghettos. I think the main problem you face now is that these Gangstas you talk about are infact mostly Swedish citizens born in Sweden from immigrant parents.
Is this the case or am i shooting in the dark?
This is completely true for Denmark, it's the so called second (or even third) generation who makes most of the trouble. Often because they are unemployed, alienated and feel useless for society. Social issues.
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 01:25
:no: Knee-Jerk rhetoric.
Instead of attacking my rhetoric, try to focus on my arguments.
:balloon2:
Louis VI the Fat
03-27-2006, 01:26
Radier is right, I can only confirm his experience. A large segment of criminals of west and north African decent do single out white victims. Molesting white women, beating up white guys gains you more 'respect' points in gangsta' circles.
Then there's the trio of Jews, gays and women. It's suicidal for them to walk in a muslim controlled part of France. Well, of those three, white women at least have the choice to walk around covered, heads down and showing submission to muslim men.
Before I was very open to more immigrants coming here, to have a rather "open arms" politic... screw that, I have had enough of people trying to beat me up. I know im being very radical, but I'm sick to death of it.
Im turning more and more into an isolationistic socialist every day. The problem is tho, that most immigrants do behave, they work, pay taxes etc, then there are "the scum of the earth"... who doesnt.It is a horrible feeling, isn't it? Only a few years ago, I would never have written what I wrote above. I wouldn't even have believed it.
It is a tragedy. For Europe. But also for the first generation immigrants, for (north-African) muslim parents who came here, have lead a decent live of hard work, and now see their sons run rampant. It is a tragedy for that majority of immigrants who just go about their own business and lead perfectly respectable lives.
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 01:34
What argument? All I saw was a rhetorical attack on the character of the american people.
My argument is that a gun will not help the current situation in Sweden, on the contrary. If guns get easily accesible it will be just like putting gas on a bonfire hoping to extinguish the flames, what happens is quite the opposite - exactly as Pape put it.
What makes you so sure a gun will scare off the muggers? You dont think they will be carrying one?
Kagemusha
03-27-2006, 01:38
This is completely true for Denmark, it's the so called second (or even third) generation who makes most of the trouble. Often because they are unemployed, alienated and feel useless for society. Social issues.
Yep.If thats the case the problem is more of a Social problem then immigration problem. In Finland the most problematic minority has been the "gypsies" or Romanic people as they are called here.But both the "Gypsies" and Finns have had their share on causing the problems. I think the best way to avoid this kind of problem is to spread out the housing of the Immigrants so they start to live inside the Nation and the Culture and not to make "cultural pockets",that isolates and alianates them from the majority.But if that doesnt help and they start to behave like Criminals there should be enough will to treat them like the criminals they are in that case.Belonging on a ethnic minority shouldnt provide an excuse of criminal behaviour to anyone.
Kagemusha
03-27-2006, 01:54
Did you even read my post before you came up with that argument? It would work if Sweden was prepared to enforce gun ownership restrictions, or even restrict them purely to house-holds, banning them from public use. Baby steps and all that.
Here in America, guns in homes do, in fact, stop home invasions. You see it on the news constantly, stuff like "Old granny shoots would-be burglar in the foot, cops apprehend the limping suspect three blocks away." There are no reliable statistics to suggest guns increase the crime rate.
I dont know how much weapons there are on private citizens in Sweden but i think what this thread is about is street crime not home invading.In Finland we have the third highest amount of private Firearms per citizen in the world after USA and Jemen.Exact number is 1.8million registered privately owned firearms on the population of about 5.2 million.
But then the street crime here are mostly assaults not robberys.If the Finns would be carriying their weapons around in public then the drunk fighting that is very common "sport" around here would turn into shootings so i think that its lot safer that people keep their guns at home on their Gun safes rather then carry them around.Getting stupid ideas.
Kagemusha
03-27-2006, 02:03
I think according to Radiers original post i it was more about street mugging and robberys,not so much about burglarys or home invasions. :book:
Kagemusha
03-27-2006, 02:20
In that case I still think Sweden's best bet is to legalize guns. But I think creating responsible concealed carry permits might be too big of a step for knee-jerk liberal sweden.
I dont think the Swedes have a gun "ban".The system is just different then in US.I dont know the Swedish legistlation well enough to be sure,but here in Finland all the guns are registred like cars for example. Before you purchase a gun,you have to get a permit to own one and things like criminal record prevent that.That way the police knows the guns that are lawfully purchased and if invidual is catched carrying an unregistred gun he will be picked up immediately.Here in order to carry around a concealed weapon you need to give up a very good reason for that.
Sasaki Kojiro
03-27-2006, 02:20
In that case I still think Sweden's best bet is to legalize guns. But I think creating responsible concealed carry permits might be too big of a step for knee-jerk liberal sweden.
I thought racism was the problem. Robbery would be the symptom.
Crazed Rabbit
03-27-2006, 03:49
Yes, let's start a street war instead of solving the problem, jeez.
What the heck else do you do when the other side invades? You cannot change these people's minds through 'toleration and diversity' conferences. Better a war where you fight back than have them slowly take over your country without even a struggle from those who live there.
I thought racism was the problem. Robbery would be the symptom.
Kill the robbers, and the problem solves itself.
Radier is right, I can only confirm his experience. A large segment of criminals of west and north African decent do single out white victims. Molesting white women, beating up white guys gains you more 'respect' points in gangsta' circles.
Then there's the trio of Jews, gays and women. It's suicidal for them to walk in a muslim controlled part of France. Well, of those three, white women at least have the choice to walk around covered, heads down and showing submission to muslim men.
We need more brave Frenchmen, like these fellows (http://labaf.blogspot.com/2006/02/la-baf-crash-la-manif-des-islamistes.html#baf-islamistes-english). Take it to them, and be armed and dangerous.
Crazed Rabbit
Sasaki Kojiro
03-27-2006, 04:12
Kill the robbers, and the problem solves itself.
:dizzy2:
No, no it doesn't. You can't possibly be serious. :help:
Papewaio
03-27-2006, 04:21
What the heck else do you do when the other side invades? You cannot change these people's minds through 'toleration and diversity' conferences. Better a war where you fight back than have them slowly take over your country without even a struggle from those who live there.
Carefully read the thread it seems the issue is not with the immigrants so much as their rascal children (who probably were born in Sweden).
Kill the robbers, and the problem solves itself.
Simple solutions rarely resolve complex problems. It might be carthartic, but hardly a solution to go around attacking people.
We need more brave Frenchmen, like these fellows (http://labaf.blogspot.com/2006/02/la-baf-crash-la-manif-des-islamistes.html#baf-islamistes-english). Take it to them, and be armed and dangerous.
Crazed Rabbit
Right vigilantism is such a way to go forward. I'm sure the EU wants to see crystal night all over again. What a wonderful step forward for humanity. :dizzy2:
AggonyDuck
03-27-2006, 08:16
The problem with the legalize guns solution is that instead of knife-armed thugs, we'd have gun-armed thugs. :no:
YanTraken
03-27-2006, 08:38
To legalize guns is worthless.It`ll make only another USA where almost anyone can have them.It wont increase safety.We all know cases where a child toke his fathers gun "to play"it.
As for children playing with their parents' guns? The situation is alot rarer than the anti-gun crowd would have you think. But if a parent is leaving his gun where a child can get to it, it's his own damn fault and not the state's.
By that logic, so is being robbed.
Crazed Rabbit
03-27-2006, 09:11
Carefully read the thread it seems the issue is not with the immigrants so much as their rascal children (who probably were born in Sweden).
Well, same idea-fight those who are attacking you. It was an analogy.
Right vigilantism is such a way to go forward. I'm sure the EU wants to see crystal night all over again. What a wonderful step forward for humanity. :dizzy2:
I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant there should be marches of people, or just smaller groups, who are targeted by the Muslims, through the Muslim neighberhoods. Totally peaceful and non-provocative, save to proclaim their right to exist. But they should be ready to deal with any trouble that might occur.
The arguments put forth by liberals afraid of guns are pathetic. You say that scandinavian companies have high rates of gun ownership, then somehow think that making it legal for people to carry concealed guns will mean more criminals carry guns? And wouldn't it be better for both sides to be armed with guns than to have good citizens be defenseless against knife-weilding gangs?
Crazed Rabbit
I guess multiculture is the same everywhere.
Ok this makes me very sad. I can get beaten up and robbed just because I look like a Swede. This is pure racism but the politicians ignore it.
Just like the multicult.
Tribesman
03-27-2006, 10:00
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Look at the state of vermont:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Once again Vermont tops the list in useless comparisons in gun nut weekly :no:
And despite the fact that it is not a gun topic and them people making it one have no knowledge of the gun legislation in the country concerned we get the same old, Vermont is better than DC because of its gun laws:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2:
And wouldn't it be better for both sides to be armed with guns than to have good citizens be defenseless against knife-weilding gangs?
:wall: :wall: :wall:
No , having gun toting gangs and citizens would not be better , what would be better would be getting rid of the criminals :idea2:
it seems the issue is not with the immigrants so much as their rascal children .....
the problem is more of a Social problem then immigration problem. ........
It is a tragedy. For Europe. But also for the first generation immigrants, for (north-African) muslim parents who came here, have lead a decent live of hard work, and now see their sons run rampant. It is a tragedy for that majority of immigrants who just go about their own business and lead perfectly respectable lives........
Often because they are unemployed, alienated and feel useless for society. Social issues.......
Also the concentrating the housing of immigrants on certain areas have produced Ghettos.
Wow thats amazing , look at the selection of posts that actually talk about the issue at hand:2thumbsup:
Kralizec
03-27-2006, 12:31
Congrats on another unfounded and warped liberal talking point. What's wrong with anyone having guns? It increases safety. Look at the state of vermont: The laxest gun laws in the nation, and one of the lowest crime rates. Then look at, say, Chicago, or New York City, or Washington DC, where there are strict anti-gun laws--they have the highest murder rates in the country.
Really? A rural, thinly populated and fairly wealthy area has less violent crime then thick urban concentrations? That boggles my mind.
Reenk Roink
03-27-2006, 12:48
I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant there should be marches of people, or just smaller groups, who are targeted by the Muslims, through the Muslim neighberhoods. Totally peaceful and non-provocative, save to proclaim their right to exist. But they should be ready to deal with any trouble that might occur.
Crazed Rabbit
So, essentially, what you're saying is that they should go on "peaceful" protests packing heat, preferably with one of the two firearms you showed us earlier, "to be ready with any trouble that might occur" which, if I am assessing the situation correctly, will occur and a knife wielding thug jumps out, all hell breaks loose.
I now understand why so many Swedes are dead set against that...
Call me old fashioned but won't a stronger police presence be enough...?
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 12:53
Call me old fashioned but won't a stronger police presence be enough...?
Actually, I don't think a stronger police presence would be the answer. Although, undoubdetly much more effecient than free guns for all. However, the Swedish welfare state is already hard pressed economically, and investments are made wiser elsewhere than in police.
The muggings take place in small alleys and deserted parking areas, those sort of places. The chance of more police detecting it would be very small, per centage wise.
Call me old fashioned but won't a stronger police presence be enough...?
Unfortunately no. Our police is at the moment very lazy and need to become more effective. Of course they get swamped with silly laws like the anti-piracy law where they are being pressured into arresting 12yo that download a Britney Spears album:inquisitive:
Also making guns legal would be a very stupid move.
Not only would it have no effect on the robbery thing but it would lead to a increase in the number of murders so no.
Anyway this is just another poor lower class kids attacking society thing because our goverment doesn't know when to stop. We need to stop and make sure that the people that are good people gets merged with our society while sending the bad ones back to where they came from.
The country can't handle anymore especially the big cities.
Rodion Romanovich
03-27-2006, 13:24
I feel like saying "what did I say?", but I won't. It's very simple - pursue the open arms policy too fiercely, and the end result is a counter-reaction of massive racism. The massive racism and apartheid can be worse than the open arms strategy in many ways, but people who exaggerate the open arms policy are as big society problems as dictators who carry out mass executions and persecution, at least from a consequence-based point of perspective. It's like a pendulum - if you don't want it in one direction, and push it over the equilibrium point, you'll give it potential energy that will start swinging it fiercely over to the other side. The more fiercely you remove it from the equilibrium in one direction, the more you contribute to how fiercely it moves in the other direction a little while later. And it's the sons and daughters of open arms policy people, that support apartheid leaders, and the sons of apartheid leaders that support open arms policy people. You can't swing the pendulum in one direction and expect it to remain there. The only thing a wise man can do, is to find out where the equilibrium point lies, and always push the pendulum towards it, and when it's nearing the equilibrium, brake it, and make it stop there. Only at the equilibrium point can it remain still. And often that point is acceptable to everyone.
The problem is, that even though we're now nearly at the maximum possible angle from the equilibrium, politicans are still trying to push us further away from the equilibrium. And the consequences will be that the pendulum will end up with such a huge angle from the equilibrium in the other direction, that a lot of people will later regret it.
So - look upon the people to carry out extreme moralism and political correctness as you would look upon those who are without moral. Look upon these politicans as if they would be of the same kind as the mass-murdering, racistical, persecuting politicans you'll see in half a century (or less?) if they aren't removed from power. Hopefully if you vote for extremists now they'll get a note of say 20-49% in the next vote count, and then the corrupt politicians will get scared and start repairing their politics before it's too late. If you keep voting for such corrupt parties, you'll instead in half a century from now have 70% votes for such extremist parties over and over again for a decade or more, or even a party that removes democracy to be able to carry out dirty actions in the inevitable fight - when the immigrants become majority dictatorship is a necessity to master them, just like Saddam Hussein was forced to use dictatorship to keep secular sunni culture and law in a country with a majority of shias.
Oh and by the way, if you or a friend gets beaten by someone who says: "A wonderfull feeling spreads in your body when you rob" or "Power for me is when Swedes lay down and kiss my feet" a youth says. "It is so easy to rob Swedes, so easy." or "The Swedes do nothing. They just give us their things. They are sissies.", then go to the police and if the police refuses to arrest them and they don't know who you are and where you live, just go burn down their house, beat their car with a baseball bat, and form a gang and find the guy alone, and beat him up with some long iron item. And do the same thing with the police officer who refused to arrest them. If someone says they're at war with you, they obviously are, and it's your right to fight back. If they've declared war, they've made a formal declaration that they consider any methods for hurting you allowed, and that they won't consider it a declaration of war or start of a new not yet existing conflict if you use any violence or any other methods you like back against them. Unfortunately, if they are from a country where it's their culture to use the entire family for revenge when something like that happens, you might after that be forced to prepare for a full-scale war against not only kill the guilty, but his entire family. Just wait for a declaration of war from the entire family, and then you are cleared to kill them all without being the person who started the conflict. Then you can live on with a pure conscience, and the police will have trouble putting you in jail for any of the crimes, because there would be so many protests against that.
Remember that if there is a God and he is just, the open arms and exaggerated moralist hypocritical people and the mass-murdering persecuting racist leaders burn together in the same room in hell. The equilibrium in the pendulum is to have open arms for people in much need, but still keeping guarantees that the immigrants never become a majority, and having proper integration of those that come. Then everybody wins.
Immigrants bring crime, so lets stop importing them. :book:
doc_bean
03-27-2006, 13:43
Guns for everyone just givr guns to the robbers too, it won't SOLVE anything. The only thing that could work is strict law enforcement and decent punishment.
I think a youth rehabilitation centre near the artic circle might do the trick...
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 15:25
Immigrants bring crime, so lets stop importing them. :book:
Oh? Because Norway had no crimes when there was no immigration. You cant equal immigrants with criminals, doing so is just wrong.
And you prefer a Tuborg over a Carlsberg, it's the same deal.
And you know that is BS you are spilling out there... You are just one of those 'holier than thou' people who can't look beyond your little coffeecup! It is so damn easy to sit back and proclaim the 'social' issue, as apparently that is the root of all evil in a very even society.
America (as in the US) has even more ghetto areas than we do. Some areas are troublesome others are not, but most are poor (ie social). Why is that? Well, some are quite simply more peaceful and more thankful.
Now I agree that something needs to be done on the social area, because it has very clearly failed. You won't get any arguments from me on that aspect.
But don't you agree that before we can deal with that we needd to stop it from just reemerging in another place. How do you deal with forestfires? You dig trenches before you try to put it out. If you don't then all the firefighters in the world won't be able to do more than slow down the fire.
The same applies here.
We have areas where people are insulated from the surrounding society. They have what they need there in their little imported world. Why should they be going out into the foreign and potential dangerous Danish/Swedish/whatever society? It has rules that they can't accept, norms they won't live with and people whom they look down on. Better to stay and import a new generation of people to keep the local society alive.
That needs to be stopped, at least until the issues with these ghettos can be solved. You can do all you want, but if they won't integrate, they never will. And in that case I think it is better that they do not pass this willingnessless on to future generations. Living and spending time next to Mjølnerparken I can tell you that it is not just the second generation that is the problem. The second generation of that area are barely teenagers by now. But the problems are been there since the late 90s when it could hardly have been them.
Not to forget the rather unfortunate 're-edcation' trips to the homelands... You can do all the social projects you want, but when people persist this way you have 0 chance of success.
It is indeed a sad fact that the ghettoareas are the ones that demands so much attention that all the productive people are ignored.
You might be surprised, but I don't judge people on their looks. My own GF is in fact a second generation immigrant, hailing from Brøndby. I spend a lot of time in that place and you quickly learn to single out the troublemakers from the people others would also be afraid of.
Add to that my year in Jamaica where I learned that looks can very much decieve. I had no trouble getting friends as I was not judgemental, I let people's behaviour determine if I wanted to be near them. That is the same now. I will not let looks determine how I feel about a person! That is totally unacceptable to me and my upbringing.
So don't be going into the usual racism rethoric people of your political stance are so fond of!
:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: well put
Oh? Because Norway had no crimes when there was no immigration. You cant equal immigrants with criminals, doing so is just wrong.
Agreed, but to ignore the facts of overrepresentation is almsot equally bad.
Oh? Because Norway had no crimes when there was no immigration. You cant equal immigrants with criminals, doing so is just wrong.
If only 1 in 500 immigrants were criminals, allowing them to enter would be the same as allowing criminals to enter.
Just because we already have "alot" of criminiality, doesn`t mean that we should get more. Who cares about avoiding 0,5% more criminality? :dizzy2:
Kagemusha
03-27-2006, 19:26
I wouldnt mind a law for immigrants that would result in deporting the invidual back to his country of origin if he commits serious crime in his new country.Am i racist to think like that?My belief is that if someone moves in another country he have to adapt in the ways of his new home country,ofcourse the invidual can be proud of his own culture but i think if he cant adapt in the culture or laws of his new homeland he or she should leave back where he came from or another country that has more similar culture then the country of his origin.
I wouldnt mind a law for immigrants that would result in deporting the invidual back to his country of origin if he commits serious crime in his new country.Am i racist to think like that?My belief is that if someone moves in another country he have to adapt in the ways of his new home country,ofcourse the invidual can be proud of his own culture but i think if he cant adapt in the culture or laws of his new homeland he or she should leave back where he came from or another country that has more similar culture then the country of his origin.
That`s the basically the view I have; but the goverment sucks at this. We send the good people out, and let the bad guys, heck, even islamists stay(well ok, we can`t send him back where he will be executed).
doc_bean
03-27-2006, 20:59
That`s the basically the view I have; but the goverment sucks at this. We send the good people out, and let the bad guys, heck, even islamists stay(well ok, we can`t send him back where he will be executed).
Uh, what's wrong with people practising Islam ?
Uh, what's wrong with people practising Islam ?
ditto
Reenk Roink
03-27-2006, 21:10
Uh, what's wrong with people practising Islam ?
It is backward and evil, just like Judaism 60 years ago...:book:
As for Sjakihata and TB666 and their concerns about the police (or lack thereof). I understand that the police may not be effective at this moment, but usually, in tough cities, the police also become tough. Touche this for the NYPD and LAPD. I still believe that a well maintained police force and laws are the best way to stop these thugs.
It is backward and evil, just like Judaism 60 years ago...:book:
.
its a huge generalization to say Islam is evil, people just use it to justify their evil, just like many do with christianity, judaism as just about every other religion...
Taffy_is_a_Taff
03-27-2006, 21:20
I think Islamist is a term that refers to Muslim fanatics rather than any old Muslim.
Edit: you can now recommence your shocked, horrified overreaction.
Louis VI the Fat
03-27-2006, 21:22
Uh, what's wrong with people practising Islam ?Nothing. Most practising muslims are perfectly decent people.
Islamicism on the other hand, or rather Islamofascism, like some ultra-orthodox Jewish sects or Christian-fundamentalism, is a dead-end alleyway into violence and disaster.
Edit: meh, Taffy beat me to it.
Edit: you can now recommence your shocked, horrified overreaction.
thank you :2thumbsup:
Crazed Rabbit
03-27-2006, 21:27
It appears the last four or so posts misunderstood what 'islamist' meant, and built off that assumption. And you know what they say about assuming.
'Islamist' is in reference, I think, to the fascist practicers of Islam who want to impose Sharia law (as an example) on other countries, i.e. the racist immigrants.
As for Sjakihata and TB666 and their concerns about the police (or lack thereof). I understand that the police may not be effective at this moment, but usually, in tough cities, the police also become tough. Touche this for the NYPD and LAPD. I still believe that a well maintained police force and laws are the best way to stop these thugs.
Police investigate crimes, they don't stop them. Nor will more police, who would not be allowed to get tough, solve the problem of the racist immigrants thinking of the native Swedes as 'weak'.
So, essentially, what you're saying is that they should go on "peaceful" protests packing heat, preferably with one of the two firearms you showed us earlier, "to be ready with any trouble that might occur" which, if I am assessing the situation correctly, will occur and a knife wielding thug jumps out, all hell breaks loose.
No, I want the native people, whose forefathers built their countries, founded their institutions, set up laws and customs, made its culture, to bend over and give it all up and live under sharia law because of some violent, racist, immigrants.
Seriously, I don't care which firearms they pack.
EDIT: Beat by Taffy and Louis VI the Fat.
Crazed Rabbit
doc_bean
03-27-2006, 21:28
Nothing. Most practising muslims are perfectly decent people.
Islamicism on the other hand, or rather Islamofascism, like some ultra-orthodox Jewish sects or Christian-fundamentalism, is a dead-end alleyway into violence and disaster.
Edit: meh, Taffy beat me to it.
never heard the terms 'Islamicism' or 'Islamists' before.
:oops:
Reenk Roink
03-27-2006, 21:34
its a huge generalization to say Islam is evil, people just use it to justify their evil, just like many do with christianity, judaism as just about every other religion...
Heh, I was being sarcastic.
'Islamist' is in reference, I think, to the fascist practicers of Islam who want to impose Sharia law (as an example) on other countries, i.e. the racist immigrants.
These people certainly do not seem religious to me. In fact, were they actively trying to "establish sharia law" in Sweden, wouldn't they want to be cautious about robbing and stealing, so they wont lose a hand? Also, I'm pretty sure Muhammad prohibited racism... Thugs ignoring most of their religious law doesn't seem to equate with Islamists...
No, I want the native people, whose forefathers built their countries, founded their institutions, set up laws and customs, made its culture, to bend over and give it all up and live under sharia law because of some violent, racist, immigrants.
Well, I don't really know who the true native people are. At least in America, the white man is not native. And as for equating the racist thugs with sharia law, see above...
Louis VI the Fat
03-27-2006, 21:40
never heard the terms 'Islamicism' or 'Islamists' before.
Islamisme
Islamisme of politieke islam is een politieke ideologie gebaseerd op een conservatieve, letterlijke (of 'literalistische') interpretatie van de Koran en de Hadieth. De ideologie komt voort uit het principe van tawhid, eenheid, en is daarmee tegen de scheiding van geloof en staat. De aanhangers van deze ideologie stellen dat Gods wetten boven de door de mens geschreven wetten gaan.Voilà. (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamisme) :jumping:
These people certainly do not seem religious to me. In fact, were they actively trying to "establish sharia law" in Sweden, wouldn't they want to be cautious about robbing and stealing, so they wont lose a hand? Also, I'm pretty sure Muhammad prohibited racism... Thugs ignoring most of their religious law doesn't seem to equate with Islamists...
Ok the original issue was about racism, immigrants or their children attacking Swedes in their homecountry for being ethnic Swedes.
But what Viking meant by saying
heck, even islamists stay
Is that his government will not kick out those who seek to subvert the society and install Sharia as the ruling law by any means. And there are those kind of people. And to be honest when you hear their rethoric you feel disgusted to have helped them.
Kralizec
03-27-2006, 21:43
never heard the terms 'Islamicism' or 'Islamists' before.
:oops:
I heard and read it a couple of times, but it doesn't seem to be a common term over here.
I heard and read it a couple of times, but it doesn't seem to be a common term over here.
I'm surprised... I hear it all the time here, or rather enough to know it well.
doc_bean
03-27-2006, 21:47
out those who seek to subvert the society and install Sharia as the ruling law by any means. And there are those kind of people. And to be honest when you hear their rethoric you feel disgusted to have helped them.
We've had a former(?) Hezbollah member leading his own political party (and they actually got votes !).:dizzy2:
I think he still lives in Belgium but I'm not sure he's still active in politics.
Kralizec
03-27-2006, 22:09
I'm surprised... I hear it all the time here, or rather enough to know it well.
Me too, but the term "radical muslim" is much more common here.
Ok the original issue was about racism, immigrants or their children attacking Swedes in their homecountry for being ethnic Swedes.
But what Viking meant by saying
heck, even islamists stay
Is that his government will not kick out those who seek to subvert the society and install Sharia as the ruling law by any means. And there are those kind of people. And to be honest when you hear their rethoric you feel disgusted to have helped them.
Danke.
I thought the word 'islamist' was well known in English as well, but that`s as mistaken one can be. :book:
Ironside
03-27-2006, 22:13
Although I'm sure as Portland grows, and gets more liberal, it'll wind up just like New York City, but one can hope.
Lots of ghettos in Portland and Eugine?
What the heck else do you do when the other side invades? You cannot change these people's minds through 'toleration and diversity' conferences. Better a war where you fight back than have them slowly take over your country without even a struggle from those who live there.
Curses! Our plot of European conquest is foiled. :sweatdrop:
Sjakihata
03-27-2006, 22:25
Curses! Our plot of European conquest is foiled. :sweatdrop:
Yous have been stopped at the Gates of Vienna before, I wonder, will Sweden hold this terrible and well planned invasion?
:laugh4:
Kralizec
03-27-2006, 22:34
The biggest problem in Oregon's ghettos is not violent crime, but drugs. Meth, particularly.
Did Oregon have a drug problem before meth became popular so suddenly? I saw a story on TV about the state of Montana and meth, and it said that the problem really came out of nowhere.
Yous have been stopped at the Gates of Vienna before, I wonder, will Sweden hold this terrible and well planned invasion?
:laugh4: But this time it is the enemy within. ~;)
And just you wait. When we brown guys become the majority, we intend to turn you all into blond shish-kebab. Then eat you…. with a slice of garlic bread. Delicious.
Derka, Derka! Jihad, Jihad! :charge:
Kralizec
03-27-2006, 22:48
Derka, Derka! Jihad, Jihad! :charge:
Awesome reference ~:thumb:
Did Oregon have a drug problem before meth became popular so suddenly? I saw a story on TV about the state of Montana and meth, and it said that the problem really came out of nowhere.
The west coast has had issues with meth since its creation.
There's also my own state to keep in mind. We have extremely lax gun laws, and even out urban centers (Portland and Eugene come to mind) have very low violent crime rates. The liberals here seem, for the most part, to understand the good that guns do our state.
Holy crap. YOU live in mini-Canada?
Crazed Rabbit
03-27-2006, 23:25
In fact, were they actively trying to "establish sharia law" in Sweden, wouldn't they want to be cautious about robbing and stealing, so they wont lose a hand? Also, I'm pretty sure Muhammad prohibited racism... Thugs ignoring most of their religious law doesn't seem to equate with Islamists...
Prepare yourself for a big surprise: The islamofacists are hypocrites. They justify it to themselves with the fact that they people they are robbing and stealing are not of their religion, but of the terrible west, so its okay.
Curses! Our plot of European conquest is foiled.
Huzzah! The rabbits win again! :knight:
Holy crap. YOU live in mini-Canada?
I thought the Puget Sound region in WA was mini-Canada.
Crazed Rabbit
I thought the Puget Sound region in WA was mini-Canada.
Colbert Report reference. Oregon is to California what Canada is to the USA. It just strikes me as odd that a self-proclaimed 'jingoist' (I don't even really know what that word means) came from the apparently most laid-back state in the Union.
Reenk Roink
03-28-2006, 02:32
Prepare yourself for a big surprise: The islamofacists are hypocrites. They justify it to themselves with the fact that they people they are robbing and stealing are not of their religion, but of the terrible west, so its okay.
I understand that and give exhibit number 1 as Osama. But these people are not religious from what is being told. This had as little to do with religion as it does with race (that they're North African, I know we are talking about thug racism). These are petty thugs that need to be taught a lesson. I suggest beatdowns followed with educational videos.
Colbert Report reference. Oregon is to California what Canada is to the USA. It just strikes me as odd that a self-proclaimed 'jingoist' (I don't even really know what that word means) came from the apparently most laid-back state in the Union.
A Jingoist is a ardent (some would say extreme) nationalist.
I understand that and give exhibit number 1 as Osama. But these people are not religious from what is being told. This had as little to do with religion as it does with race (that they're North African, I know we are talking about thug racism). These are petty thugs that need to be taught a lesson. I suggest beatdowns followed with educational videos.
You are mixing up stuff... The point made by Viking didn't include the criminals as in muggers. Well it did, but not in reference to the 'islamists'. He was just saying that he was disgusted that the islamists weren't kicked out when they clearly didn't like his country and tries to force their own values onto it. The points were only related in the fact that Viking wants both types out.
Viking, you are not mistaken. 'Islamist' is a fairly abundatly used word in english (spoken) medias. Look at those who are unfaimilar with it, most do not have english as their first language, thus we must assume they watch/read news in their native language, which can indeed have other names for islamists.
Reenk Roink
03-28-2006, 03:54
You are mixing up stuff... The point made by Viking didn't include the criminals as in muggers. Well it did, but not in reference to the 'islamists'. He was just saying that he was disgusted that the islamists weren't kicked out when they clearly didn't like his country and tries to force their own values onto it. The points were only related in the fact that Viking wants both types out.
Viking, you are not mistaken. 'Islamist' is a fairly abundatly used word in english (spoken) medias. Look at those who are unfaimilar with it, most do not have english as their first language, thus we must assume they watch/read news in their native language, which can indeed have other names for islamists.
Kraxis, I completely understand that there are these muggers, and then there are also the islamists in Europe. I was pointing out that these certain muggers were most likely not islamists as was stipulated...
Taffy_is_a_Taff
03-28-2006, 05:01
Look at those who are unfaimilar with it, most do not have english as their first language, thus we must assume they watch/read news in their native language, which can indeed have other names for islamists.
There are many names for them indeed.
Immigrants bring crime, so lets stop importing them. :book:
Yup. And to make it even worse the multicultists tells them they are really victims, it is social exclusion, language barrier, solar flares. I say they are just scum.
Yup. And to make it even worse the multicultists tells them they are really victims, it is social exclusion, language barrier, solar flares. I say they are just scum.
Far from all immigrants are scum.....but alot of them are, without giving any percentage.
A Jingoist is a ardent (some would say extreme) nationalist.
I just don't understand its etymology.
Fine replies guys. Interesting opinions.
Allthough I still feel the same about all this. I will vote, this year, on a party that I under other circumstances would have disliked. Sigh...
I have allways wondered about how you americans here feel about immegration. How does the 'steriotype' immegrant look like in US? Little off topic, but hey I'm curious.
yesdachi
03-28-2006, 19:20
"The Swedes do nothing. They just give us their things. They are sissies."
Perhaps the “Swedes” should stop being “sissies”. You’re not going to be able to quick-fix the years of out of control immigration but there are plenty of ways to protect yourself while encouraging the government to change the immigration laws and increase police presence and social programs in troubled areas.
Even without guns there are commonsense ways to stay safe. Don’t travel alone, take a self defense class, keychain pepper spray, etc. These robbers are bullies and need to be stood up to. Why are the “Swedes” allowing themselves to be such easy marks? I’m ok with guns but if you’re not what’s wrong with a couple shots of pepper spray? Fight back!
Edit: prepare for a bit of a rant.
Additionally, is it just me or is there a recent theme of immigrants harassing nationals and the nationals crying about it throughout Europe lately? I’ve always had this romanticized view of Europeans as being patriots who stand up against evil (probably from too many WWII movies) but all I ever hear about lately are weak politicians and citizens being pushed around by the children of immigrants. And why aren’t these immigrants teaching their kids to behave? GAH!
Blodrast
03-28-2006, 20:21
Just to make things a bit clearer, yesdachi, how useful do you think a self-defense class or a can of pepper-spray is against 3 or 4 people (even bare-handed ones, which is not necessarily the case with muggers) ?
Just to make things a bit clearer, yesdachi, how useful do you think a self-defense class or a can of pepper-spray is against 3 or 4 people (even bare-handed ones, which is not necessarily the case with muggers) ?
I know this wasn't directed at me, but the muggers are people too. Most will be pretty nervous when they're confronting some stranger and demanding their money. If things don't go well early, they're likely just to take off. It happened to my friend's father, who happens to be a Tae Kwon Do instructor; he attacked one his muggers and the others fled almost instantly.
I’m ok with guns but if you’re not what’s wrong with a couple shots of pepper spray? Fight back!
but all I ever hear about lately are weak politicians and citizens being pushed around by the children of immigrants. And why aren’t these immigrants teaching their kids to behave? GAH!
As Blodrast says fighting back against 3-4 people is only going to make things worse...
the children of immigrants are often poorer and therefore have to resort to muggery to earn money, this then expands into random violence etc. over time,
EDIT: There are just as many bad non-immagrant parents as bad immagrant parents :(
yesdachi
03-28-2006, 20:46
Just to make things a bit clearer, yesdachi, how useful do you think a self-defense class or a can of pepper-spray is against 3 or 4 people (even bare-handed ones, which is not necessarily the case with muggers) ?
Spray, run, and scream for help is a lot more appealing than giving up my valuables, getting beaten and then being forced to kiss my attackers feet.
If self defense and pepper spray is a bad idea what would you suggest??
Kagemusha
03-28-2006, 21:01
Spray, run, and scream for help is a lot more appealing than giving up my valuables, getting beaten and then being forced to kiss my attackers feet.
If self defense and pepper spray is a bad idea what would you suggest??
Im with Yesdachi on this.running is best martial around,but in some situations you just cant get away on a situation and then some legal self protecting weapon is good to have if you are outnumbered.Now this is my personal opinion and i dont recommended it to anybody.But i think in desperate situation is better to stand up for yourself and maybe get a very bad arse whopping,then kiss the ground before those who are trying to take your property and humiliate you.:bow:
Sjakihata
03-28-2006, 21:08
Spray, run, and scream for help is a lot more appealing than giving up my valuables, getting beaten and then being forced to kiss my attackers feet.
How much money do you carry around anyway? I've got MAX 10 bucks on me in notes or coins, im always using my visa card to pay, they can steal that sure, but it wont help them, cos I can ring it reported in no time.
.But i think in desperate situation is better to stand up for yourself and maybe get a very bad arse whopping,then kiss the ground before those who are trying to take your property and humiliate you.:bow:
i'd much rather be humiliated than get "a very bad arse whopping" but thats just me :2thumbsup:
its a difficult one, and if there was only 1 or 2 "muggers" i might prefer my chances running, but i still think any "weapon" would only inflame the situation....fighting back is surely the worst thing you can do in those situations....
Blodrast
03-28-2006, 23:36
I never claimed to have a solution, I was just trying to point out that what you suggested may not be one, either - at least not all the time.
It's prolly hard to generalize (as with all things), but it depends a lot on the situation: are you alone, or with a friend/small group; are you alone, or with your gf/wife/kid(s); is it a populated place/back alley with nobody around for a mile; is it 2 guys, or 10 guys; do they carry anything, or they at least seem to be bare-handed; do they just want your money, or do they actually want to hurt you (for whatever reason); are they drunk or not; and I'm sure we can all come up with others.
Obviously, you might have vastly different reactions in each combination of these circumstances.
I tend to agree more with GoreBag's point, that _sometimes_ they are just cowards, and if you show that it'll cost them dearly to get anything out of you, in most cases they'll just give up and leave you alone. But you better be sure...
And, of course, we should all try to keep things in perspective here: there's a huge difference between someone who's been practicing some form of martial arts for all his life, and someone who took an x-week self-defense course. I'd give a lot better odds to GoreBag's buddy's father, than to, for example, me ~D
Papewaio
03-29-2006, 00:59
Yup. And to make it even worse the multicultists tells them they are really victims, it is social exclusion, language barrier, solar flares. I say they are just scum.
Actually multiculturalists don't like racists. So I would say they would not approve of racially motivated attacks.
Also by taking the stance that they are just scum then you are reducing the situation to a simplistic issue. Most of the people I have meet who have reduced these issues to simplistic ones and have a violent solution for the 'scum' are no better if not worse then the ones they attack.
I say throw the book at the ones who have commited crimes. At the same point understanding the situation that has created them and doing something positive to reduce the numbers in the next generation. I do not think this is a genetically caused problem. I think it is a systemic problem that requires a system based solution.
It is like weeds in the field. You pull them out and them put in place a program to reduce the next generation. Even a rose is a weed in the wrong location.
I tend to agree more with GoreBag's point, that _sometimes_ they are just cowards, and if you show that it'll cost them dearly to get anything out of you, in most cases they'll just give up and leave you alone. But you better be sure...
And, of course, we should all try to keep things in perspective here: there's a huge difference between someone who's been practicing some form of martial arts for all his life, and someone who took an x-week self-defense course. I'd give a lot better odds to GoreBag's buddy's father, than to, for example, me ~D
There's also the matter of how white (or in this case, Swedish) you are. I've never been mugged, personally - I get overlooked because of the way I look. I've been around when other people were being mugged, swarmed, even, but I only got a glance and a respectful nod. Something tells me these guys, if they're anything like the ethnic gangs around here, don't bother much trying to lean on neo-nazis or some viking-looking dude down the street unless they have a pistol.
In any case, a little confidence is usually enough to deter things like this.
doc_bean
03-29-2006, 12:46
if they're anything like the ethnic gangs around here, don't bother much trying to lean on neo-nazis or some viking-looking dude down the street unless they have a pistol.
The neo-nazi's were/are the main target of 'ethnic' muggings and violence around here.
(serves them right !)
Bulawayo
03-29-2006, 16:19
This is very interesting. I believe the main topic mainly points to one particulary bad area in southern Sweden; Rosengård. I have never been there because it's very far from my home in Stockholm. I have never read anything positive about Rosengård. Youth gangs are harassing paramedics and firefighters, so they always have to call for police backup.
Sweden is however much bigger than that, and I have never experienced any problems at all with immigrants, but rather more positive. My wife who is currently studying SFI (svenska för invandrare/Swedish for immigrants) told me yesterday that the teacher had in class asked each and everyone about their opinions of the Swedes. The answers were mainly very negative, as very egoist, unpolite, alcoholics and drug addicts. When my wife told the class about her positive experiences with Swedes she was immediately questioned from some girls there that told her she couldn't say that. She got upset, told them (in Spanish) that those thoughts were just mental projections and asked why they were in Sweden if the Swedes are so bad.
Later at night I told her that many can indeed see Swedes that negative way, but also that it isn't true. The truth is that most Swedes are very scared of absolutely anything, and that it's very easy to misunderstand that. This I can also see in the interview with the kids that said that Swedes are sissies. It is true. Because of that too many Swedes are very reluctant to let in strangers/immigrants to work, personal relations, whatever. Too bad.
I am however very optimistic about the future as it's likely a process in where the public opinion will change with time, and I really hope that the Swedish attitude about being so scared will also change. I am working on it everyday. One must have great amounts of patience :2thumbsup:
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 19:03
Youth gangs are harassing paramedics and firefighters, so they always have to call for police backup.
why don't you just shoot the bastards? or rather...unleash some neo-nazi apes. They will exterminate each other...Even if one of the sides manages to survive, it will be too weakened to pose a threat...
Today a doctor was killed by an African immigrant ( http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=303127)(Norwegian link, sorry), and the islamist I referred to earlier in this thread is going to be on TV in a debate program, where he will be be able to spew out his insanity; as well as discussing it with muslims and christians. :dizzy2:
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 19:32
debate on what?
debate on what?
His own statements, I believe. :dizzy2:
(they`re about that islam is winning on all fronts, and that it is a war between "the West" and the muslim world because of that.)
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 19:44
Ah...I see...Ok then, let the wanker make his statements, then shoot him.
Ah...I see...Ok then, let the wanker make his statements, then shoot him.
No...the Norwegian state won`t allow that. Else he`d been send back to Iraq ages ago.
Public lynching then?
I don`t think so; but a prett funny case happened some time back, when an ethnical Pakistan(sp?) women lifted him. :laugh4:
https://img226.imageshack.us/img226/2737/mullakrekarliftup0gx.jpg
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 20:27
absolutely inacceptable comment (edited by Ser Clegane)
see original post (Ser Clegane)
I think you need to clarify what you mean by that.
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 20:31
what is it you don't understand?
Ser Clegane
03-29-2006, 20:42
what is it you don't understand?
It's indeed rather clear - I hope the same is true for the message you received.
I don't want to see anything like that again in the Backroom :stare:
I hoped I misunderstood, but I seems like I didn`t.
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 20:48
yea Viking....you're quite perceptive.
That was in answer to your previous post; but whatever.
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 21:00
which one mate?:juggle2:
The neo-nazi's were/are the main target of 'ethnic' muggings and violence around here.
(serves them right !)
How many violent crimes are committed against non-whites in your area?
which one mate?:juggle2:
*yawn*
Louis VI the Fat
03-29-2006, 21:35
Today a doctor was killed by an African immigrant ( http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=303127)He was killed by an Algerian asylum seeker. I have recently decided to just call a spade a spade.
While searching for an English link on the situation on France, I found this rather unsettling article from Australia. Welcome to French style race relations, Australia:
What sets the Middle Eastern gangs apart from all other gangs is their propensity to use violence at any time and for any reason. [...] And even more alarming is that the violence is directed mainly against young Australian men and women. There is a clear and definite link between violent attacks on our young men and women being racial as well as criminal. Quite often when taking statements from young men attacked by groups of Lebanese males around Darling Harbour, a common theme has been the racially motivated violence against the victims simply because they are Australian.
I wonder whether the inventors of the racial hatred laws introduced during the golden years of multiculturalism ever took into account that we, the silent majority, would be the target of racial violence and hatred. I don’t remember any charges being laid in conjunction with the gang rapes of south-western Sydney in 2001, where race was clearly an issue and race was used to humiliate the victims. But then, unbelievably, a publicly-funded document produced by the Anti-Discrimination Board called “The Race for Headlines” was circulated, and it sought not only to cover up race as a motive for the rapes, but to criticise any accurate media reporting on this matter as racially biased. It worries many operational police that organisations like the Anti-Discrimination Board, the Privacy Council and the Civil Liberties Council have become unaccountable and push agendas that don’t represent the values that this great country was built on.
MANY OF YOU would have heard of the horrific problems in France with the outbreak of unprecedented crimes amongst an estimated five million Muslim immigrants. Middle Eastern males now make up 45,000 of the 90,000 inmates in French prisons. There are no-go areas in Paris for police and citizens alike. The rule of law has broken down so badly that when police went to one of these areas recently to round up three Islamic terrorists, they went in armoured vehicles, with heavy weaponry and over 1000 armed officers, just to arrest a few suspects. Why did it need such numbers? Because the threat of terrorist reprisal was minimal compared to the anticipated revolt by thousands of Middle Eastern and North African residents who have no respect for the rule of law in France and consider intrusions by police and authority a declaration of war.
The problems in Paris in Muslim communities are being replicated here in Sydney at an alarming rate. Paris has seen an explosion of rapes committed by Middle Eastern males on French women in the past fifteen years. The rapes are almost identical to those in Sydney. They are not only committed for sexual gratification but also with deep racial undertones along with threats of violence and retribution. What is more alarming is the identical reaction by some sections of the media and criminologists in France of downplaying the significance of race as an issue and even ganging up on those people who try to draw attention to the widening gulf between Middle Eastern youth and the rest of French society.'Middle-Eastern' may be appropriate for Australia, but in a French context that should read 'from the Maghreb'. Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia.
Link (http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581)
He was killed by an Algerian asylum seeker. I have recently decided to just call a spade a spade.
It depends on how many details you want to tell about. A spade is still a tool.
The truth is that most Swedes are very scared of absolutely anything....
what the hell are you smoking? :dizzy2:
anyway, like you said, some immigrants call swedes rude, egoistic.... well then I say; "Go ram a stick up your ass you ignorant, ungratefull sh*t of a person!" back. Sweden has one of the worlds most generus social security systems, they should bow their heads in gratefullnes and say thanks and be happy we even take them in the first place... we can allways do like Finland.
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 22:15
Come on Louis...The article is biased my friend. Those weren't gang rapes...
I think it was love mate. Those women instantly fell in love with those peaceful, funny, good looking sensitive studs and felt the urge to procreate with all of them at once...And what? do you think that she made them a favour? Hah! You'd wish you infatuated bigot. They did her a favour...They renounced to their well deserved right to those heavenly virgins just to please a godforsaken depraved white girl...This is pure kindness, divine benevolence...God Is Great (Peace be upon Him)
I think the whites are just being jealous on these middle easterners and north africans.
Really...
Kagemusha
03-29-2006, 22:31
Come on Louis...The article is biased my friend. Those weren't gang rapes...
I think it was love mate. Those women instantly fell in love with those peaceful, funny, good looking sensitive studs and felt the urge to procreate with all of them at once...And what? do you think that she made them a favour? Hah! You'd wish you infatuated bigot. They did her a favour...They renounced to their well deserved right to those heavenly virgins just to please a godforsaken depraved white girl...This is pure kindness, divine benevolence...God Is Great (Peace be upon Him)
I think the whites are just being jealous on these middle easterners and north africans.
Really...
Why are you calling Lois as infatuated biggot? There is enough hate and frustration around the matter without someone throwing gasoline in the flames.:gah2:
Come on Louis...The article is biased my friend. Those weren't gang rapes...
I think it was love mate. Those women instantly fell in love with those peaceful, funny, good looking sensitive studs and felt the urge to procreate with all of them at once...And what? do you think that she made them a favour? Hah! You'd wish you infatuated bigot. They did her a favour...They renounced to their well deserved right to those heavenly virgins just to please a godforsaken depraved white girl...This is pure kindness, divine benevolence...God Is Great (Peace be upon Him)
I think the whites are just being jealous on these middle easterners and north africans.
Really...
*puts on his Sarcasm-Detection-Goggles* :inquisitive:
Come on Louis...The article is biased my friend. Those weren't gang rapes...
I think it was love mate. Those women instantly fell in love with those peaceful, funny, good looking sensitive studs and felt the urge to procreate with all of them at once...And what? do you think that she made them a favour? Hah! You'd wish you infatuated bigot. They did her a favour...They renounced to their well deserved right to those heavenly virgins just to please a godforsaken depraved white girl...This is pure kindness, divine benevolence...God Is Great (Peace be upon Him)
I think the whites are just being jealous on these middle easterners and north africans.
Really...
hang on, is that sarcastic?
Infatuated bigot --> just so i know, what does that mean (i take it's not a compliment)
Vladimir
03-29-2006, 22:38
He was killed by an Algerian asylum seeker. I have recently decided to just call a spade a spade.
While searching for an English link on the situation on France, I found this rather unsettling article from Australia. Welcome to French style race relations, Australia:
'Middle-Eastern' may be appropriate for Australia, but in a French context that should read 'from the Maghreb'. Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia.
Link (http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581)
If what's stated in this article is true I don't understand how a nation can stand by while their women are being targeted like this.
Harald Den BlåToth
03-29-2006, 22:53
hah!
Let's say that Louis is no more a bigot than those gang-rapes were consented acts of sexual fulfillment.
Damn...I can't belive I'm explaining this...
Louis is a smart lad and he knows that I was joking...
But I can't deny I'm mean (not with Louis though)...
I've been mean all day...
The Eclipse is to blame I think...
Louis VI the Fat
03-29-2006, 23:59
Don't worry - I detected the sarcasm ~;)
Louis VI the Fat
03-29-2006, 23:59
That article does have a one-sided perspective. But that doesn't make it untrue. The Quadrant seems like a serious enough magazine, and this article was written well before the riots last year in either France or Australia. It is a long read, but a good one. All of it sounded eerily familiar. From the portrait they paint of a generation of rampaging Arab immigrants to the blind eye of their PC apologists.
I too was once one of their apologists. No more. I can not not see what I see.
Is it a coincidence that dozens of immigrant communities do well in France - from the Cambodians to the Portugese, from the Chinese to the Indians? Millions of them have integrated and found that live in France is rather good. Yet somehow the North-Africans have created some sort of war-zones for themselves. Little pockets of Palestine ('Paristine') - forever at war with the country around them.
Is it a coincidence that the 'Asians' in Britain (mainly Pakistani's, mainly Muslims), and the Turks in Germany (Muslims again) are on the whole doing fine, really?
Is it a coincidence too that the countries in western-Europe that have the biggest immigrant problems are those countries where the predominant group of immigrants are Arabs, of overwhelmingly North-Africans decent?
Is it some nasty inherent fault of France when countries as different as France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Norway all seem to share the same problems with them?
I'm not interested in any race wars or any clash of cultures a la Samuel Huntington. But I'm not going to be a fool about it anymore either: the North-Africans are the problem, not us. And yes, the situation in Israel is pressing on them, and they feel insecure in the post 9/11 world, and they fall in between the cultures of their parents and their new homelands and all that. Which is all very well. But go see a shrink, don't gang-rape teenage girls.
Reenk Roink
03-30-2006, 00:13
That article does have a one-sided perspective. But that doesn't make it untrue. The Quadrant seems like a serious enough magazine, and this article was written well before the riots last year in either France or Australia. It is a long read, but a good one. All of it sounded eerily familiar. From the portrait they paint of a generation of rampaging Arab immigrants to the blind eye of their PC apologists.
I too was once one of their apologists. No more. I can not not see what I see.
Is it a coincidence that dozens of immigrant communities do well in France - from the Cambodians to the Portugese, from the Chinese to the Indians? Millions of them have integrated and found that live in France is rather good. Yet somehow the North-Africans have created some sort of war-zones for themselves. Little pockets of Palestine ('Paristine') - forever at war with the country around them.
Is it a coincidence that the 'Asians' in Britain (mainly Pakistani's, mainly Muslims), and the Turks in Germany (Muslims again) are on the whole doing fine, really?
Is it a coincidence too that the countries in western-Europe that have the biggest immigrant problems are those countries where the predominant group of immigrants are Arabs, of overwhelmingly North-Africans decent?
Is it some nasty inherent fault of France when countries as different as France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Norway all seem to share the same problems with them?
I'm not interested in any race wars or any clash of cultures a la Samuel Huntington. But I'm not going to be a fool about it anymore either: the North-Africans are the problem, not us. And yes, the situation in Israel is pressing on them, and they feel insecure in the post 9/11 world, and they fall in between the cultures of their parents and their new homelands and all that. Which is all very well. But go see a shrink, don't gang-rape teenage girls.
Don't some European nations like France and Denmark have a bit of institutionalized racism present?
I just cannot see this as a one sided, all their fault problem...
Harald Den BlåToth
03-30-2006, 00:13
http://www.ammoman.com/images/9MM-SUB147-2.jpg
cheaper!...and no side effects!
just 16 cents/ a piece!
Goofball
03-30-2006, 00:26
I am simply astounded that you could say this:
Congrats on another unfounded and warped liberal talking point.
followed immediately by this:
What's wrong with anyone having guns? It increases safety.
with a straight face, when just about everything you have said in this thread has been straight out of the NRA "Talking Point Handbook."
Go peddle gun-nut dogma somewhere else.
Harald Den BlåToth
03-30-2006, 00:43
Goofball! Have you ever tried one of these:
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german_aa/pics/gaaf10.jpg
?
When I grow up I'll buy one, put it in my backyard and shoot down muslim kamikaze planes...
Wish me luck brother! (peace be upon you)
Crazed Rabbit
03-30-2006, 00:45
I'm not interested in any race wars or any clash of cultures a la Samuel Huntington. But I'm not going to be a fool about it anymore either: the North-Africans are the problem, not us. And yes, the situation in Israel is pressing on them, and they feel insecure in the post 9/11 world, and they fall in between the cultures of their parents and their new homelands and all that. Which is all very well. But go see a shrink, don't gang-rape teenage girls.
I read the link about Australia, and you're saying France is worse? Oh dear.
Don't some European nations like France and Denmark have a bit of institutionalized racism present?
'Institutionalized racism'. Such a great term. You can use it to accuse groups of being racist even when you can't point out racist policies or people in those groups.
I just cannot see this as a one sided, all their fault problem..
Let's see, which side is commiting racially motivated crimes, many for the sake of attacking the native citizens? Which group attacks the medics and police when they drive through?
Enough of your whiny multiculturalism. Read the link Louis provided ( http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581 ) and think about what is really going on, not some leftist dillusion.
just 16 cents/ a piece!
You could probably get it even cheaper if you went with FMJ 9mm's in the head.
Crazed Rabbit
Harald Den BlåToth
03-30-2006, 00:54
yea...but it's risky...what if you kill an innocent bystander? Well...nobody's innocent...just for the sake of the argument.
Goofball
03-30-2006, 01:15
Goofball! Have you ever tried one of these:
http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/german_aa/pics/gaaf10.jpg
?
When I grow up I'll buy one, put it in my backyard and shoot down muslim kamikaze planes...
Wish me luck brother! (peace be upon you)
I have to ask, HDB: You aren't by any chance the love-child of Divinas Arma and Dev Dave, are you?
:idea2:
Let's see, which side is commiting racially motivated crimes, many for the sake of attacking the native citizens? Which group attacks the medics and police when they drive through?
Enough of your whiny multiculturalism. Read the link Louis provided ( http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archi...article_id=581 (http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/archive_details_list.php?article_id=581) ) and think about what is really going on, not some leftist dillusion.
The only delusion going on is the conservative one that says "If a few black guys are criminals, then logically all black guys are criminals."
Yes, one can say that some (or maybe even a majority) of North African immigrants are causing trouble in France. But it sounds like we are coming dangerously close to saying that that means that all North African immigrants are causing problems in France. Simply not true.
And I knew it would only be a matter of time before somebody blamed this on multiculturalism. It makes me laugh everytime somebody starts crying about how multiculturalism is forcing us good white folks to give up our own culture and submit that of swarthier types from the east.
That is not multiculturalism. In fact, by definition, that is not multiculturalism. If we all gave up our own culture in favor of another, then there would only one culture, which would give lie to the multi part of multiculturalism.
:wall:
True multiculturalism involves embracing the good aspects of other cultures and enriching your own life by experiencing them. It does not involve surrendering your own identity.
Go find another boogey-man to shoot at.
Harald Den BlåToth
03-30-2006, 01:25
I have to ask, HDB: You aren't by any chance the love-child of Divinas Arma and Dev Dave, are you?
huh?
True multiculturalism involves embracing the good aspects of other cultures and enriching your own life by experiencing them.
Isn't it obvious yet what a substantial enrichment to my previous monoculturalist tedious life this "peace be upon you" thing has brought?
I am a true multiculturalist. You're a demagogue.
Reenk Roink
03-30-2006, 01:40
'Institutionalized racism'. Such a great term. You can use it to accuse groups of being racist even when you can't point out racist policies or people in those groups.
I can't eh? Well for starters, in Denmark, immigrants (essentially Muslim/North African immigrants) have to be shipped back to be buried, but dogs have their own cemetery. Marriage laws are up preventing Danes from marrying immigrants until a certain age. And more measures and calls for "zero-Muslim" immigration are being heard. France has the infamous headscarf-ban. Most of it's immigrant population lives in ghettos. The quality of life for those people there rivals if not exceeds our own problems with latinos. There has got to be something spurring this kind of crime from these immigrant groups. My guess, poor economical situation at the forefront and a bit of racism (which only gets worse once a few crimes are committed). Unless you would like to believe that these North Africans simply have more violent tendencies due to their race or that their religious scriptures are radically different and more violent than Christian scripture.
And I see the same reaction from you types to our immigration problems. "The Mexicans bring in violence, crime, poverty, and their dreaded Spanish, and are eliminating our culture which doesn't have any of that" (perhaps they are right about the Spanish part). At least Div says most of the problem is economical.
Nobody here is denying that these racist crimes by the immigrants are troublesome...But people do deny their own part in the problem.
You think there hasn't been a racist cause? You think there hasn't been a racist reaction?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/06/wrace06.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/04/06/ixworld.html
The situation is becoming suspiciously reminiscent of one some 60-70 years ago. A group living in ghettos and poverty, did some bad things, became scapegoats quickly, some anti-___________ legislation was passed, and it just got worse...
Harald Den BlåToth
03-30-2006, 01:45
The dogs are danish I assume, aren't they?
Seems fair to me...
Papewaio
03-30-2006, 02:01
I wonder whether the inventors of the racial hatred laws introduced during the golden years of multiculturalism ever took into account that we, the silent majority, would be the target of racial violence and hatred. I don’t remember any charges being laid in conjunction with the gang rapes of south-western Sydney in 2001
Compared with what happened I would say that Quadrant is appearing biased:
The public uproar caused by the gang rapes led to the passage of new legislation through the Parliament of New South Wales, dramatically increasing the sentences for gang rapists by creating a new category of crime known as aggravated sexual assault in company [2]. Also in the course of one of the trials, the defendants refused counsel claiming that all lawyers were against Muslims. This led to the contentious prospect of the defendants being able to cross examine the witnesses themselves, a situation that was averted by further legislation being put through the New South Wales parliament [3].
The first court case heard under the new sentencing regime concerned the gang rapes of two young women in Ashfield on July 28, 2002 (see Ashfield gang rapes).
Bilal Skaf, ring leader of the three August 2000 rapes, was sentenced to a total of 55 years imprisonment. On September 16, 2005, the New South Wales Court of Criminal Appeal reduced Skaf's 55 year sentence to a maximum of 28 years, with parole available after 22 years. Bilal Skaf will now be eligible for release on February 11, 2023.
Bilal's younger brother, Mohammed Skaf, was jailed for 32 years for his role in the gang rapes but also had his sentence later reduced to 19 years with a non-parole period of 11 years.
Three other gang rapists - Belal Hajeid, Mohammed Sanoussi, and a man known only as H, also had their sentences reduced.
Sanoussi's brother Mahmoud Sanoussi and another man, Mahmoud Chami, both lost their appeals on their sentences.
Tayaab Sheikh, 18, was sentenced to 15 years imprisonment.
Mohammed Ghanem, 19, was the final person to be sentenced and was imprisoned for 40 years with a non-parole period of 26 years for two counts of rape.
Nine men in total were jailed over the 2000 rapes and received a total of 240 years.
Crazed Rabbit
03-30-2006, 08:10
The only delusion going on is the conservative one that says "If a few black guys are criminals, then logically all black guys are criminals."
Yes, one can say that some (or maybe even a majority) of North African immigrants are causing trouble in France. But it sounds like we are coming dangerously close to saying that that means that all North African immigrants are causing problems in France. Simply not true.
Come on now Goofball. You know better than that. I was responding to someone who said they couldn't place all the blame for the crimes of immigrants on the immigrants who committed those crimes. I was not calling all the immigrants criminals. Please kindly gather up your strawman.
That is not multiculturalism. In fact, by definition, that is not multiculturalism. If we all gave up our own culture in favor of another, then there would only one culture, which would give lie to the multi part of multiculturalism.
Like communism, the implementation differs from the theory.
yea...but it's risky...what if you kill an innocent bystander? Well...nobody's innocent...just for the sake of the argument.
I was assuming that it would be used for firing squads and the like. You are right that if you were to use a gun in public, hollowpoints are preferable to prevent overpenetration.
Reenk, please. What you list is the inevitable crys of racism after countries finally realise they should maybe put some limits on immigration.
Crazed Rabbit
doc_bean
03-30-2006, 18:21
How many violent crimes are committed against non-whites in your area?
I don't know.
You've got to put the whole thing in perpsective though. It used to be two froups of teenagers, the neo-nazi's and the immigrants, that would call eachother names, occasionally mug eachother and VERY occasionally beat eachother up. It seemed a bit like hooliganism to me at the time. There was no deep hatred, there were just two sides taking out their excess energy on eachother. I guess it must have been hard for the non-voilent immigrant kids, since they might have gotten caught up in this on occasion. But for the most part, it was pretty harmless imho.
But I don't like neo-nazi's.
doc_bean
03-30-2006, 18:29
Nevermind that the conditions of those Ghettos were in all likely-hood vastly better before the North African Hordes arrived..
:idea2:
Oh please, our trash is just as bad as theirs !
Strict law enforcement, regardless of race, and tougher sentences is what we need in Europe.
Kagemusha
03-30-2006, 18:38
Oh please, our trash is just as bad as theirs !
Strict law enforcement, regardless of race, and tougher sentences is what we need in Europe.
Amen.:bow:
Oh please, our trash is just as bad as theirs !
Strict law enforcement, regardless of race, and tougher sentences is what we need in Europe.
well put :2thumbsup:
yesdachi
03-30-2006, 21:15
Oh please, our trash is just as bad as theirs !
Strict law enforcement, regardless of race, and tougher sentences is what we need in Europe.
That and you should stop being such a bunch of sissies.:hide:
"The Swedes do nothing. They just give us their things. They are sissies."
That and you should stop being such a bunch of sissies.:hide:
much easier said than done :juggle2:
yesdachi
03-30-2006, 21:23
much easier said than done :juggle2:
I believe you said it.~D
it has to start somewhere ~:)
I believe you said it.~D
!
:oops:
Don Corleone
03-30-2006, 23:34
It is a tragedy. For Europe. But also for the first generation immigrants, for (north-African) muslim parents who came here, have lead a decent live of hard work, and now see their sons run rampant. It is a tragedy for that majority of immigrants who just go about their own business and lead perfectly respectable lives.
It's not a tragedy, it's a crime. The immigrants raised these monsters. How can you honestly say they're just there to peacefully co-exist, integrate and improve their lives when they fly their native flags, refuse to speak the local language and encourage their sons to rape/mug/pillage/riot? Why do I say they 'encourage'? If your parents aren't stopping your bad behavior, they're encouraging it.
I say if some kid is out rioting, mugging people, what have you eject the whole family. Send them all back where they came from and bar them from reentry. You'll see these problems evaporate. Immigrants? Yes. Reconquista cultural, as the Mexican gangsters in this country call it? Never...
Tribesman
03-31-2006, 00:44
say if some kid is out rioting, mugging people, what have you eject the whole family. Send them all back where they came from and bar them from reentry. You'll see these problems evaporate.
Sorry Don , that is rubbish , simplistic unworkable twaddle.
Don Corleone
03-31-2006, 00:47
say if some kid is out rioting, mugging people, what have you eject the whole family. Send them all back where they came from and bar them from reentry. You'll see these problems evaporate.
Sorry Don , that is rubbish , simplistic unworkable twaddle.
Only because you say it is.
If you want to let immigrants run rampant in Ireland, be my guest.
But I don't think anybody should be forced to allow immigrants to come into their country and wreak havok. If the immigrants are causing problems, and it would appear they are in Sweden, deport them. If their family is encouraging their bad behavior, and is complacent in their mayhem by providing them safe haven, deport them too.
Tribesman
03-31-2006, 00:59
Only because you say it is.
No Don , not because I say it is , because it is bollox .
If your little Jilly commits a crime when she grows up should you be put in prison as well ?
How do you send someone back where they come from if they live where they are from and are citizens of that place ?
How do you punish the brothers and sisters for their siblings crime ?
Soooo ....Sorry Don , that is rubbish , simplistic unworkable twaddle.
If you want to let immigrants run rampant in Ireland, be my guest.
I am quite happy with the usual method of punishing criminals and deporting those that are found deserving of deportation , where do you get your funny ideas from ????
But I don't think anybody should be forced to allow immigrants to come into their country and wreak havok.
Who is forcing anything ? the laws exist , apply them , don't come up with fanciful BS instead .
Goofball
03-31-2006, 01:01
I say if some kid is out rioting, mugging people, what have you eject the whole family. Send them all back where they came from and bar them from reentry. You'll see these problems evaporate.
So if your child gets caught stealing a car when she's 16, can we send both you and your wife to jail too?
(This question is posed purely in the hypothetical. I am certain that with parents such as yourself and Mrs. Corleone to raise her, the chances of your little girl ever becoming a car thief are roughly equal to my chances of being the GOP presidential candidate in 2008...)
~;)
Watchman
03-31-2006, 01:05
Right. Collective punishements leveled against select, minority, groups.
Now there's one fine formula there. :dizzy2:
:rtwno: Lions.
Don Corleone
03-31-2006, 01:09
So if your child gets caught stealing a car when she's 16, can we send both you and your wife to jail too?
(This question is posed purely in the hypothetical. I am certain that with parents such as yourself and Mrs. Corleone to raise her, the chances of your little girl ever becoming a car thief are roughly equal to my chances of being the GOP presidential candidate in 2008...)
~;)
Actually, in most states, I am legally liable for financial damages little Ms. Adorable could rack up.
Marriage laws are up preventing Danes from marrying immigrants until a certain age.
And that is racist because? :inquisitive:
If everybody are included then it is not racist but broad, the direct opposite of racist.
Besides, that law was made because too many girls and boys were being force-married with some cousin from back home they had never met. And when married they could just drag their spouse to Denmark and create a new generation of first timers in Denmark. The plan with the law was to remove these force-marriages, for the sake of the people involved and for the sake of the country as well.
The unfortunate effect is that many who are married in a normal way get caught. That is not good at all. Personally I'm not too sure about what to think about this.
And more measures and calls for "zero-Muslim" immigration are being heard.
Tell a Dane when that was and proposed by whom, I can dig out the parlamentary records if I get the time.
I think what you have heard is one of the rabbid politicians rave his usual semi-racist blabber. But hearings about 'zero-muslim immigation'? Please!
France has the infamous headscarf-ban.
Change name to 'religious symbol-ban', then we can talk. Muslims are not being singled out, they are just the ones who are the most obvious. But nuns were the first to suffer a similar law back in the late 1800s. Hardly racist by any standards, just pure secularism. Good or bad it is just not racist.
Most of it's immigrant population lives in ghettos.
Don't know about France, but that is certainly not the case here.
Most immigrants live among the locals, and they are usually more integrated, thus you don't see them. Or rather, they are not fun reporting about.
The big ghettoareas in Denmark amount to about 100,000 people. There are more than 250,000 muslims most of which are immigrants. Then add all the Asian immigrants, the 'local' immigrants (from Norway and England in particular [number one and number three repectively on the amount list])
There has got to be something spurring this kind of crime from these immigrant groups. My guess, poor economical situation at the forefront and a bit of racism (which only gets worse once a few crimes are committed). Unless you would like to believe that these North Africans simply have more violent tendencies due to their race or that their religious scriptures are radically different and more violent than Christian scripture.
Well, why do these people have more tendencies towards trouble? Other immigrants who are at least as 'odd' (compared to local culture and appearance) don't suffer the same tendencies.
Economy and education you say?
Well, the universities are screaming for more 2nd generation immigrants to enter. But they don't, and those that do drop out at a significantly higher rate (somewhere around 60%).
Often I hear arguments from these people: "I don't want to work in grocery store, I want a real job with possibilities." You know, like the rest of us to be fair. But it is a bit hard to get such jobs when you don't care to finish even High School. And no it is not because they can't afford it as school and university is for free and you get a small amount of money (enough to keep you alive and well if you have a dormroom) to keep you going while studying. It is simply pure will! They won't take the time to become something (of course those that finish actually do take their time).
Economy? It is hard to believe that too, though it might have some merit.
When compared to poor Danes they still do about double the trouble. Btw, I'm poor, poorer than most of these anyway. But I just manage my money in a more sensible way so I can afford some things I like and not get indepted. Perhaps it has to do with school once more? I don't know.
I don't presumre to know what the problem specifically is, but prior to the harder stance that is being taken now, when it was very un-PC to speak out in these matters, there hardly a difference. In fact crimerates have decreased somewhat (though I can't believe it is working already).
But we have tried one side of the matter, and it didn't work, in fact it only got worse up through the 90s (when that was in effect).
Goofball
03-31-2006, 01:12
Actually, in most states, I am legally liable for financial damages little Ms. Adorable could rack up.
Yes, but there is a vast legal difference between being financially liable and criminally liable.
Reenk Roink
03-31-2006, 02:00
Kraxis:
As for the laws themselves, it would be blatantly stupid to single out a certain group in the text of the law, but you can see the impetus of these laws was in response to the immigration, mainly of North African Muslims.
The calls for "zero-Muslim" immigration are right here:
Almost half of 18 to 30-year-old Dutch people now say they want zero Muslim immigration...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/06/wrace06.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/04/06/ixworld.html
(I know it says 'Dutch' so please do not think I was singling out Denmark in my tirade)
As for the scarf ban: 2 things
-It was an attempt to protect French secularism which is apparently a big part of French culture, but again, it's not the guys wearing a cross that was the impetus of the bill.
-Many of these women see the scarf as a religious obligation.
It is good to hear that a majority of immigrants are well integrated. However, there is still, in some peoples mind (usually the same who are frothing from the mouth on Mexican immigrants) that all of these people are the same, and there has been more than a couple of posts and posters who want to seem to think that way.
I'm not denying that the immigrants do not bring in problems. We have our own immigrant problems here. What I am quite upset at, is that some people like to take a few examples of immigrant crime, blame it all on the immigrants, use quite a broad brush in doing so, and etc...
To end, let me reiterate, that I am not calling the majority of any country or of its people 'racist' as they are quite the opposite. Many of the countries in question were beacons of tolerance. Indeed that would be as foolish as calling all the immigrants as such.
Incongruous
03-31-2006, 08:00
There is only one thing I hate about allowing immigrants into a certain country.
Its that no one ever allowed vote on it:shame:
Papewaio
03-31-2006, 08:33
Australia did in getting rid of its White Australia Policy.
Kraxis:
As for the laws themselves, it would be blatantly stupid to single out a certain group in the text of the law, but you can see the impetus of these laws was in response to the immigration, mainly of North African Muslims.
The calls for "zero-Muslim" immigration are right here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/06/wrace06.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/04/06/ixworld.html
(I know it says 'Dutch' so please do not think I was singling out Denmark in my tirade)
As for the scarf ban: 2 things
-It was an attempt to protect French secularism which is apparently a big part of French culture, but again, it's not the guys wearing a cross that was the impetus of the bill.
-Many of these women see the scarf as a religious obligation.
It is good to hear that a majority of immigrants are well integrated. However, there is still, in some peoples mind (usually the same who are frothing from the mouth on Mexican immigrants) that all of these people are the same, and there has been more than a couple of posts and posters who want to seem to think that way.
I'm not denying that the immigrants do not bring in problems. We have our own immigrant problems here. What I am quite upset at, is that some people like to take a few examples of immigrant crime, blame it all on the immigrants, use quite a broad brush in doing so, and etc...
To end, let me reiterate, that I am not calling the majority of any country or of its people 'racist' as they are quite the opposite. Many of the countries in question were beacons of tolerance. Indeed that would be as foolish as calling all the immigrants as such.
Fair enough, but you just made some very broad statements and only mentioned Denmark (until you made a specific point of France), what was I to believe?
The French ban has everything to do wit religious symbols, not the scarfs per se, do not think you can wear a cross visible as a religious symbol. As noted, the first law in this manner was relating to nuns in the 1800s. It was just this old law that was made up to date for the modern France. Something they should have done many years ago but forgot to do. Had they done that nobody would have said France was racist as 'that is just how it is'.
Is Turkey racist for having similar laws? Wait, they are mostly muslims so they can't be, can they? But the point is the same, secularism.
What I don't like is being labeled a racist for being concerned, or for wanting to set things straight before we let in huge numbers again. But the 'holier than thou' types scream racism anytime they can to keep people like me silent. And I won't stand for it, and apparently most of the population is tired of it too. It is about time that they (not the population) wake up and understand that we are not racists, we just don't want to keep a system around that lets foreigners come and take advantage of us while hating us at the same time, and on top of it get blamed for it.
When I hear them talk I hear this: "How dare you idiotic racist bigot complain when you are raped/taken advantage of/hated. You have created the problem, now suffer from it!" I'm tired of it.
What I don't like is being labeled a racist for being concerned, or for wanting to set things straight before we let in huge numbers again. But the 'holier than thou' types scream racism anytime they can to keep people like me silent. And I won't stand for it, and apparently most of the population is tired of it too. It is about time that they (not the population) wake up and understand that we are not racists, we just don't want to keep a system around that lets foreigners come and take advantage of us while hating us at the same time, and on top of it get blamed for it.
Well said, and it are the holier then thou types that are entirely to blaim for this multicultural catastrophy, immigrants believe they can get away with anything, and rightfully so. The cultivation of victimhood with non-assimilating and criminal foreigners and the pavlov reaction of criminalising critical thinkers(who for some reason just don't get that mass-immigration of illiterate people from third world countries is the best way to improve a society) has brought all this upon us.
Well said, and it are the holier then thou types that are entirely to blaim for this multicultural catastrophy, immigrants believe they can get away with anything, and rightfully so. The cultivation of victimhood with non-assimilating and criminal foreigners and the pavlov reaction of criminalising critical thinkers(who for some reason just don't get that mass-immigration of illiterate people from third world countries isn't the best way to improve a society) has brought all this upon us.
maybe we should start illegally migrating to third world countries to make it a bit fairer, i honestly think that even if immagrants knew that they could be punished for illegally migrating then they would still prefer it to staying in their own country...
I do agree that we dont make it clear enough to illegalls that they wont always be welcomed, and politicians are perhaps too tentative on the subject (dont want to be seen as predjudiced, or to take sides)
Kralizec
03-31-2006, 11:33
When I hear them talk I hear this: "How dare you idiotic racist bigot complain when you are raped/taken advantage of/hated. You have created the problem, now suffer from it!" I'm tired of it.
The problems are largely of our own making, for different reasons. The government of the Netherlands used to actively lure immigrant workers under the downright naive assumption that once they earned enough for a good pension, they'd remigrate back to their own country. Then the economy and labour market plumeted and they ended up poor and unemployed, and not welcome anymore.
France's immigration problems are largely caused by the aftermath of their miserable dealing with Algeria.
However, that only explains the cause of these problems and should not be used to apologize for the crimes committed by individuals.
Sjakihata
03-31-2006, 11:47
What I don't like is being labeled a racist for being concerned, or for wanting to set things straight before we let in huge numbers again. But the 'holier than thou' types scream racism anytime they can to keep people like me silent. And I won't stand for it, and apparently most of the population is tired of it too. It is about time that they (not the population) wake up and understand that we are not racists, we just don't want to keep a system around that lets foreigners come and take advantage of us while hating us at the same time, and on top of it get blamed for it.
I find it quite funny that you can speak for the entire population. Last time I checked roughly 15% voted for DF. And let me tell you, if Venstre + Konservative had any option to form a governmed with Radikale Venstre, for example, we would never see this huge tightening of our borders, why? Because it is NOT liberal policy, they only do it to give DF something, so that they will vote for the finance acts etc.
And it's quite funny that you generalize and say 'holier than thou' types, what do you mean with that? Are you one of those types, simply because you care for others? Are you now not allowed to look beyond little green denmark? Wake up, this isnt the age of nationstates, in the horizon is globalization, it's not gonna stay away because we lock our main gate.
The problems are largely of our own making, for different reasons. The government of the Netherlands used to actively lure immigrant workers under the downright naive assumption that once they earned enough for a good pension, they'd remigrate back to their own country. Then the economy and labour market plumeted and they ended up poor and unemployed, and not welcome anymore.
There is plenty of work, most just don't like working. I have been manager for a temp agency and they are horribly spoiled, always sick, always late, and late is good because at least that means they showed up. But indeed naive to think that they would be thrilled to go back to the desert after a life of luxory in the west, and allowing them to bring their entire village and put them at the governments tit the minute they left the plane didn't help either. But alas, that was then and now is now, the problems now are indifferent police and scared politicians. These little rascals don't rob and rape because they are poor or can't get a girl, they rob and rape because nobody does anything about it, and just mentionig these problems is a very dangerous hobby.
Kralizec
03-31-2006, 11:56
The original labour immigrants that came here were mostly decent and hardworking. It's their offspring that's causing the trouble you mentioned.
There is plenty of work, most just don't like working. I have been manager for a temp agency and they are horribly spoiled, always sick, always late, and late is good because at least that means they showed up. But indeed naive to think that they would be thrilled to go back to the desert after a life of luxory in the west, and allowing them to bring their entire village and put them at the governments tit the minute they left the plane didn't help either. But alas, that was then and now is now, the problems now are indifferent police and scared politicians. These little rascals don't rob and rape because they are poor or can't get a girl, they rob and rape because nobody does anything about it, and just mentionig these problems is a very dangerous hobby.
of course they rob and rape because they are poor, the robbery is to stay alive, and the rape comes of anger at living in substandard conditions, if someone did something about it, the robery would continue, but the rape might not...
EDIT: The children of immigrants find it much harder to fit in, as people are less welcoming now the problem involving immigrants has become apparent, so they then turn to crime, and the PR goes rapidly downhill...
"of course they rob and rape because they are poor, the robbery is to stay alive, and the rape comes of anger at living in substandard conditions, if someone did something about it, the robery would continue, but the rape might not...
EDIT: The children of immigrants find it much harder to fit in, as people are less welcoming now the problem involving immigrants has become apparent, so they then turn to crime, and the PR goes rapidly downhill..."
I hope you're not serious?
They "rob and rape because they're poor"?? I've seen poverty, my parents were brought up in abject poverty, so was my wife, but none of them were thieves or rapists.
Some immigrants fit in, others don't. Those that don't are simply refusing to integrate, or make any attempt to adapt to their adopted homeland.
of course they rob and rape because they are poor, the robbery is to stay alive, and the rape comes of anger at living in substandard conditions, if someone did something about it, the robery would continue, but the rape might not...
Lol to stay alive? Maybe they should sell their prada shoes and diesel jackets then. It comes from total disrespect for their host-countries, and I don't blaim them for that disrespect when the police 'force' is one big gay parade, and those that represent us are more concerned with the continuation of their political parties rather then having any use.
I hope you're not serious?
They "rob and rape because they're poor"?? I've seen poverty, my parents were brought up in abject poverty, so was my wife, but none of them were thieves or rapists.
i wasnt saying that asll immagrants rob and rape, and it would be interesting to see what percentage/number of the immagrants are causeing the problems....
Frag: (i dont know how to quote 2 different people) you have a good point about the prade shoes etc. (gah!)
its very hard for the police force to do anything, as if they are forceful twards immagrants the media show them (even if they are being fair) as racist/predjudiced, they are also seemingly disrespected by everyone (immagrants and natives),
I also agree that politicians are as usual useless, party comes before public :shame: :no:
Lmao, sweden is really solving things,
http://www.st.nu/nyheter/inrikes.php?action=visa_artikel&id=543956
only in swedish I'm afraid, but non-leftist students (of course nazi's) are denied to do exams on political subjects. Yay, stepherd wives +1, love the cult.
Vladimir
03-31-2006, 14:10
I hope you're not serious?
They "rob and rape because they're poor"?? I've seen poverty, my parents were brought up in abject poverty, so was my wife, but none of them were thieves or rapists.
Some immigrants fit in, others don't. Those that don't are simply refusing to integrate, or make any attempt to adapt to their adopted homeland.
Of course he's serious. Don't you remember the epidemic crime wave that swept the US during the great depression? Violence in the streets, rampant drug use ("Brother can you spare a dime bag?" etc), gang rapes, anti-war protests; it was a real mess then.
.
.
.
:oops: Sorry, talking about the '60's. Disregard.
doc_bean
03-31-2006, 15:18
The original labour immigrants that came here were mostly decent and hardworking. It's their offspring that's causing the trouble you mentioned.
To be honest a lot of problems have been created by 'us'. Immigrants were threated like second class citizens pretty much all of last century.
I've heard stories of student guidance councillors (PMS for anyone living in Belgium) talking young 'immigrants' (born here) out of higher education because 'no one would hire a Turkish engineer'. Muslims can make use of our Catholic school network 'in theory' (overall much better than the public schools), but they can't get Islam lessons, instead they have to suffer to Catholicism classes. My girlfriend still had to prove she had done her communion (or how do you call it in English, that rite when you're about 12) before she could enroll. I'm pretty sure that was forbidden at the time (about ten years ago) but that's pretty recent too. Formation of a separate network of muslim schools is actively opposed by politicians on all levels.
Now those politicians are wondering why immigrants don't integrate into all levels of society :dizzy2: .
Also, Belgians are still pretty damn racist. When immigrants moved into our (almost pure white) town, i've heard several people complaining about how the neighbourhood was turning into a ghetto. There was one immigrant family, in the next street...
Now I'm not saying WE are to blame for everything, and that immigrants committing crimes should be threated any differently from 'ordinary' people. But sometimes it does pay to look at the cause of these problems, instead of just throwing more money at integration programs, or trying to throw them out altogether.
doc_bean
03-31-2006, 15:30
of course they rob and rape because they are poor,
...That's silly.
Most robbers are teenagers acting tough, like teenagers are prone to do. Being dangerous is cool, remember ~:cool:.
Immigrant teen boys are already feared by most of the population, no wonder they try to assert their dominance. It's teenage instinct.
Not that I'm saying it's all good. I just think you have to give teenagers some slack. Some of my best friends have shoplifted, pickpocketed, stolen roadsigns or other public property, dealt drugs or (in one case) mugged someone. They all turned out to be good people. I don't believe you have to allow teens to do anything, or be too lenient on them, but come on, don't judge people on who they were as teenagers.
I do support tougher punishment for teenage criminals however, most people I know just did all that stuff because they knew they would get away with it.
Also, Belgians are still pretty damn racist. When immigrants moved into our (almost pure white) town, i've heard several people complaining about how the neighbourhood was turning into a ghetto. There was one immigrant family, in the next street...
And how is your town doing now? Just as nice as what used to be Molenbeek? There is a reason for people being racist, immigrants bring crime. Always, everywhere.
yesdachi
03-31-2006, 15:59
Yes, but there is a vast legal difference between being financially liable and criminally liable.
I am no legal eagle but I am pretty sure (at least in the US) that parents and guardians are legally responsible for some of the illegal actions of children in their care, especially if they are aware of the illegal actions. Truancy laws are the first to pop in mind but I know there are others that include underage drinking, drugs and guns. I doubt many are enforced very often but maybe they should be?!?
Here is a link (http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/reform/ch2_d.html) to an interesting site about juvenile justice reform initiatives in the states.
And a few exerts…
(The first one shows that a parent in CA can get up a year in jail if their kid is involved in a gang or riot.)
One of the oldest of such laws, an amended CDM statute from California, includes misdemeanor sanctions against parents who fail ". . . to exercise reasonable care, supervision, protection and control over their children."78 The California law was expanded in 1988 as a component of a larger, antigang initiative undertaken by the State. Violation of the provision brings a misdemeanor charge and may include a fine no greater than $2,500 and a 1-year prison term. In 1995, Arizona, Louisiana, and Wyoming enacted comparable laws creating a crime of "improper" or "negligent" parental supervision, with misdemeanor sanctions similar to the law in California.
…
Recent examples of self-reporting, however, offer a more promising evaluation of parental responsibility legislation. One well-publicized ordinance was adopted in Silverton, OR, in the fall of 1995, where parents are charged with the misdemeanor of "failing to supervise a minor" when a child under the age of 18 years violates any provision of the Silverton Municipal Code.87 Although the ordinance had only been in effect a short time, Silverton Mayor Ken Hector reported that the community of 6,400 had experienced a 44.5-percent reduction in juvenile crime and reduced levels of truancy. Further, school officials reported increases in the level of involvement of parents with their children.88
And how is your town doing now? Just as nice as what used to be Molenbeek? There is a reason for people being racist, immigrants bring crime. Always, everywhere.
that isnt true at all, many immagrants can be very nice people, and areas can benfit (obviously i dont know about Molenbeek's town) i live in london, in an area which is very multicultural and love it, where would i be without the corner shop, takeaways etc.
and i think assuming that immagrants bring crime is completely wrong, it increases race related crime, but in general simply greater numbers of people increases crime, so if there was a large influx of new residents from the host coutnry, crime would still rise (so it cant only be racist)
and i think assuming that immagrants bring crime is completely wrong, it increases race related crime, but in general simply greater numbers of people increases crime, so if there was a large influx of new residents from the host coutnry, crime would still rise (so it cant only be racist)
Going from this, could it be true that multiculture just don't work because you are actually deviding populations, and tell them where to go without exactly knowing what they have to become? Integrate into what exactly, since we don't even know ourselves? It's not the immigrants fault, it is the fault of those that believe that a multiculture can even exist.
of course multiculture can exist, but you will inevitably either have to
have to ALL adapt to the existign (host) coutnries culture/traditions etc.
or ALL input your own personal culture into the public culture...
sadly, this will never be possible, and the problem is that this almost never happens, and so there is inevitable friction, perhaps the best alternative is partial integration, i still htink that completely seperate cultures as a result of religous/cultural divides isnt the right way to do it (*as this exludes some people from the privaleges of living in a nice country by virtue of there religion/ethncicity, which is simply wrong)
EDIT: sorry about the typing, i just spilt coke on my keyboard
have to ALL adapt to the existign (host) coutnries culture/traditions etc.
That is called monoculture.
or ALL input your own personal culture into the public culture...
sadly, this will never be possible,
That is what I say, you agree more with me then you think, I may have a brown shirt here that is just your size ~;)
have to ALL adapt to the existign (host) coutnries culture/traditions etc.
That is called monoculture.
or ALL input your own personal culture into the public culture...
sadly, this will never be possible,
That is what I say, you agree more with me then you think, I may have a brown shirt here that is just your size ~;)
I think i agree that there is little of chance of a complete multiculture working, but i maintain that it will become possible, and that as an ideal it is well..ideal...
(is the shirt free)
and thanks for monoculture (i will add it to my {rapidly} growing list of definitions next to the computer :2thumbsup: )
yesdachi
03-31-2006, 16:44
and i think assuming that immagrants bring crime is completely wrong...
You may find this (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/sanandaji6.html) interesting then.
(I also linked it in the “Am I bovvered?” thread.)
I think i agree that there is little of chance of a complete multiculture working, but i maintain that it will become possible, and that as an ideal it is well..ideal...
(is the shirt free)
Being idealist isn't a virtue on it's own, especially when your ideals affect other peoples lives, but many lefties think it is, and when the shit hits the fan at least they can say they meant well and be morally superior. A merely 'we mean well' on it's own just isn't good enough, we need to be realistic when it comes to things like this. Shirt is free, but it does come with a daily march and complete loyalty to uberstormorger Fragony and maybe a few of your sisters to keep me happy :laugh4:
doc_bean
03-31-2006, 19:56
And how is your town doing now? Just as nice as what used to be Molenbeek? There is a reason for people being racist, immigrants bring crime. Always, everywhere.
Quite good. It's turning into suburbia though. I'll probably leave here, I prefer either the country or the city, but no immigrant related problems that I know of.
Watchman
03-31-2006, 22:04
And how is your town doing now? Just as nice as what used to be Molenbeek? There is a reason for people being racist, immigrants bring crime. Always, everywhere.Faulty reasoning. The correct formulation is disenfranchisement and alienation brings crime, as I have somewhat difficult time believing immigrants are for some reason sui generis compared to the native criminals. It is the disenfranchisement and/or alienation of the immigrants that bring crime, the same way that happens with native groups, not the immigration itself.
That extra causal step is pretty important.
Particularly as lack of trust in the willingness and ability of the institutions of the host society (regardless of the individual's background) to treat people fairly and equally, in particular in judicial matters, is thought to be among the most important factors that produce disregard of the community's nominal rules and norms and a willingness to abuse them to one's own benefit.
Or, put this way. If the individual perceives that the social institutions treat him basically fairly and equally to others, he is all other things being equal going to trust them more in part as he knows he can turn to them for justice if slighted. Figuratively speaking, this lets him "risk" trusting other people in general and not just his immediate reference group, and concretely speaking makes him more likely to "play by the rules" and respect the norms as he thinks those are actually upheld and enforced and apply to others too. However, if he perceives them treating himself or other basically unfairly -why and how and when isn't really important- this is no longer the case. The more unfairness and injustice he perceives, the less respect he will have to the nominal rules and norms as so far as he can tell those are not respected and upheld by others, in particular the social institutions that are supposed to protect him from possible wrongdoing by others, and instead unequally disadvantage and advantage particular groups. This incidentally also applies if the unfairness is to his personal advantage - this is after all essentially corruption. The less reason he has to trust the supposedly objective institutions and norms, the less he respects them, the more willing he is to "play foul", the more he suspects others of the same, the less he trusts others by default, the more he "turns inward" into a smaller reference group he thinks he can trust for some reason - family relations, shared ethnicity, membership in the same strongly normative group - and distrust those outside it...
The above is my nutshell explanation of the elementary theory of social trap, a concept of Social Sciences, so named because such a "malign circle" of distrust is difficult to break and prone to afflicting entire societies.
I don't think it's particularly difficult to see why immigrants are particularly prone to the phenomenom. This goes doubly for ones in societies whose level of "social trust" is already low, of which I think the USA with its only recently broken extensive tradition of endemic ethnic particularism in law enforcement (one of the opening scenes of the first Godfather movie, where an until then law-abiding and "generally trusting" Italian immigrant badly let down by the courts that allowed two young WASP types who assaulted his daughter to go free turns to Don Corleone in search of justice, is apparently a good illustration of the phenomenom; and how long ago was it that blacks got full and equal rights anyway...?) nevermind chronic, deep-seated and to some degree quite justified distrust of federal authorities and other citizens, is a sadly good example.
Second- and further-generation immigrants are particularly vulnerable, as unlike the first generation they lack immediate personal ties to another culture and country; so far as they are concerned they are born and bred full citizens of their countries, and if they feel this sense of belonging is spurned (because of ethnicity or whatever) they are going to be quite deeply offended and disappointed; moreover, they'll be left without any larger frame of reference to belong to (as they tend to not feel they have too much in common with their parents' culture), and such "castaway" youths and young men in particular have always and everywhere been a prime source of trouble.
The same incidentally often afflicts native youths as well, mainly on the grounds of social background and/or place of origin; the immigrants just have the added complication of ethnicity thrown in.
'Course, the alienation and resulting troblemaking of such groups is only going to make the society at large become even more hostile towards them, which near invariably tends to lead to mutual "taint by association" (à la "all immigrants/blacks/New Jersey folk are criminals/thieves/lazy social bums" sentiments and conversely "all whiteys/natives/Washingtonians are racist/in cahoots against us/exploitative rich gits"), which lead to further distrust and segregation if only through the mechanics of self-fulfilling prophecy...
There's good reasons why they call it the "social trap."
Illegal immigrants, who tend to have perfectly good reasons to regard the authorities as their enemies in the first place, and both out of sheer common sense and practical experience (as the "snakeheads" and organizations that smuggle many if not most of them tend not be excessively nice people), nevermind now that the natives who hire them are skirting the law by default and quite often downright exploit them, are obviously almost certain not to have much in the way of common ground with the laws and norms of the surrounding society which to boot tends to actively resent them on general principles. And they just wanted to better their lot in life and get ahead in the world...
***
Curio detail: around the time the part of he city I live in was built and we bought the apartement, a large number of Somalian refugees arrived in Finland. Probably the majority ended up staying for good, and quite a few seem to have settled down in my neighbourhood.
Can't say I've noticed high crime rates or something, and the three times I've been attacked on the street the aggressors were native Finns (and drunk). The little kids of the next block over, whose playground happens to be in good view of my window, also seem to be getting along right fine regardless of skin color.
So nyah.
Louis VI the Fat
04-01-2006, 03:43
The above is my nutshell explanation of the elementary theory of social trap, a concept of Social Sciences, so named because such a "malign circle" of distrust is difficult to break and prone to afflicting entire societies.
I don't think it's particularly difficult to see why immigrants are particularly prone to the phenomenom. This goes doubly for ones in societies whose level of "social trust" is already low, of which I think the USA [...] is a sadly good example.That is a very informative post, Watchman.
I do have some criticisms.
It doesn't explain why it is that precisely in the European countries with the highest levels of social trust the biggest problems with racially motivated minority crime exists. The commonly accepted world champions of social trust, equal opportunity and social-economic equality are the Nordic countries and the Netherlands. Contrary to the social trap theory of disenfranchisement and alienation, they are in the forefront of increasing racial tension in Europe.
Nor does it explain why the country that is traditionally cited as the other extremity of social trust in the western world, the US, that 'first world nation with thirld world income inequality', experiences less alienation amongst ethnic lines than northwest Europe.
The social trap theory is an excellent one, but it is not the end all of all social explanations for differing crime rates amongst different groups. I think the aspect of culture needs a more prominent place in social sciences. People are not mechanical, blank creatures undergoing social processes in almost industrial fashion.
They undergo these processes with expectations, abilities, outlooks and social values. In short, with cultural values. Which are in turn subject to, and shaped by, these social mechanisms. In a very intricate process, making it extremely difficult to tell what aspects of behaviour is best described by social mechanisms or by cultural values.
Cultures are different, both geographically and historically. Contemporary Swedish culture isn't even remotely comparable to Swedish culture from even half a century ago. If we could make a Swede with the cultural expectations of fifty years ago undergo the same social mechanisms as a present-day Swede, the results would be vastly different. Cultures also vary geographically. If we make a Swede and a Somali undergo the same social mechanisms, the results would be vastly different again.
Accepting that cultures are different, we must also accept that there are different cultural driven responses to a process of disenfranchisement and alienation. Responses that also affect crime rates resulting from this alienation.
Ironside
04-01-2006, 10:52
Nor does it explain why the country that is traditionally cited as the other extremity of social trust in the western world, the US, that 'first world nation with thirld world income inequality', experiences less alienation amongst ethnic lines than northwest Europe.
I'm not so sure about that. Remember that, as in the US the largest problems is asociated with ghettos.
doc_bean
04-01-2006, 12:55
It doesn't explain why it is that precisely in the European countries with the highest levels of social trust the biggest problems with racially motivated minority crime exists. The commonly accepted world champions of social trust, equal opportunity and social-economic equality are the Nordic countries and the Netherlands. Contrary to the social trap theory of disenfranchisement and alienation, they are in the forefront of increasing racial tension in Europe.
My, still very primitive, theory is that the social network causes a two-fold problem in Europe:
1) the nanny state treats immigrants as second class citizens, I've already explained before how government services created to support students have actively discouraged young immigrants from following the more intellectually challenging' courses. I wouldn't be surprised if the agencies responsible for helping people get jobs also give immigrants second rate jobs, or forces them to follow courses/programs far under their capability.
2) Limited capitalism. Rich people get treated nicely, whatever their race. They can provide their children with the means to pursue a successful career and are generally well integrated, simply because the rest of society bends itself to the needs of the rich (they go where the money is). Starting a business in most of Europe is pretty hard compared to the US (a few notable exceptions), taxes are very high, making it less attractive to try and gather much money in the first place (social services provides anyway).
I think the first point is probably the most important one, 'we' have treated immigrants as second-rate citizens that need our help. They want to prove that they're just as good, or better, than us and don't need our help. This frustration can lead to violence in those who don't yet know how to control their emotions (aka teenagers).
The same thing happened in the US, they were trying to keep 'the black man' down. I suspected things have sorted themselves out by now (for the most part, their will always be idiots). After this has happened once, it's probably easier for it to happen again (acception of hispanics for example).
Fragony you can read swedish??
Oh, and some days ago a school here stated that all students that sympatised with 'racist opinions' (wathever that might be) should automaticly get the lowest grade possible in certain subjects.
It doesn't matter how good and how hard you work in school if your political incorrect point of view is known by the teachers...
:laugh4:
You are free too think what you want but you are not allowed to say it loud. I don't know if I live i Sweden or DDR.
And a question for fellow europeans. Are you allowed to sing your national hymn when the school ends in spring?
In some schools here you can't because it is considered racist...
And you know those classphotos they take. You can't have a t-shirt saying "I love Sweden". It's true. :laugh4:
Btw, only two or three days ago a girl was raped in Rosengård, one of the worst gettos in Sweden. A time ago a team of reporters went there to show us Swedes the 'myth' about alot of the inhabitants there are criminals.
Guess what happens: The girl who is filming is kicked down and the camera is stolen by immegrants. Haha...
Tribesman
04-01-2006, 16:14
Wow Radier, that is really stunning , someone got raped and someone got mugged ....in a bad part of town ...hold the front page:dizzy2:
Lets see , this week there has been a rape , a shooting , 4 stabbings , god knows how many muggings and someone burnt alive ....it must be the immigrants and the ghetto , well ...apart from the fact that it was locals :shrug:
Oh, and some days ago a school here stated that all students that sympatised with 'racist opinions' (wathever that might be) should automaticly get the lowest grade possible in certain subjects.
It doesn't matter how good and how hard you work in school if your political incorrect point of view is known by the teachers...
:laugh4:
Yeah I read about that and what is good is that pretty much all are against what they did and is in clear violating against freedom of opinion in schools.
Btw, only two or three days ago a girl was raped in Rosengård, one of the worst gettos in Sweden.
Eeehhmm so ??
There are girls getting raped all the time in our country.
Hell they just caught a guy that raped several women and guess where he is from ??
And the answer is, he is swedish.
A time ago a team of reporters went there to show us Swedes the 'myth' about alot of the inhabitants there are criminals.
Guess what happens: The girl who is filming is kicked down and the camera is stolen by immegrants. Haha...
It was a episode of "efterlyst" they were doing and where filming a spot where a crime had happened which is funny because the scene became a scene of crime again :laugh4:
Yes TB666 women are raped all the time. What do the government do:
*They have very short jail sentences. Some times the rapist goes free.
*They don't send the criminal immegrants out.
Hagamannen was swedish, and that is why they published the name and face so quickly :sweatdrop: . When a guy named muhammed rapes they never publish that.
But anyway I want a very hard sentence on this Hagamannen.
But you can't deny that most rapes are comitted by immegrants.
But you can't deny that most rapes are comitted by immegrants.
I can and I will until you prove with actual statistics.
Truth is that we don't know.
Nazis says it is and I don't trust them and neither should anyone.
I can and I will until you prove with actual statistics.
Truth is that we don't know.
Nazis says it is and I don't trust them and neither should anyone.
What about reality? What about knowing people who allmost have been raped by arabs? ( I know about three of them) In allmost every 'efterlyst' there are rapes by immegrants.
http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&name=1brottslsveutland.pdf&url=/dynamaster/file_archive/051214/e7dae113eb493479665ffe649e0edf57/1brottslsveutland.pdf
Look at page 37 escpecially and you clearly see the overrepresentation of crimes comitted by immegrants.
Despite the known facts, let's be resonable. We all know what kind of people that rapes. Did you see that report from Oslo last year. I think the over-representation of rapes comitted by non-europeans streched over 1000 %. I will find that article....
The majority of crimes are commited by immigrants, no idea to deny that, since its the police's own numbers. They Should know.
I read it all in a book, few years ago, and I doubt the numbers have changed much.
Do I have a link? No. Should you trust me? I dont care.
http://aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,726204,00.html
Remember that article from left-winged Aftonbladet?
Even they admit 50% of the rapes are comitted by immegrants or children to immegrants.
I promise 90% of all Swedes do understand that the majority of all crimes are comitted by immegrants but few dare say it loud. I have been exposed to crime by two arab guys. I have friends who also have been. Where are the swedish gangs that beat people up and rob them?? I have never seen such a gang, only immegrant gangs.
Ah wathever... Everyone will realise this in 50 years when Sweden is a country of crime and low moral. :no:
Strike For The South
04-01-2006, 17:20
Sweden and the other nordic countries need to go back to being bad-ass. With horns beards and 8 foot axes.
http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&name=1brottslsveutland.pdf&url=/dynamaster/file_archive/051214/e7dae113eb493479665ffe649e0edf57/1brottslsveutland.pdf
Thank you :bow:
Interesting numbers in that research.
Alright I admit that majority of the rapes are done by immigrants even tho it is only 0.22% of the total number of immigrants.
Would never have guessed that danes,norweigan and finns are the second largest group that commit crimes:dizzy2: .
And that swedes are the ones commiting most of the violent crimes.
That only 12.4% of all immigrants commit crime was a surprise tho.
I expected it to be higher considering nazis love to go out and claim that over 50% commit crimes.
Of course this means that 87.6% of lawbiding people are being lumped together with these messly 12.4% which is sad to see :no: .
Louis VI the Fat
04-01-2006, 17:44
The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in West European nations is so extremely high that it is difficult to view these rapes as merely random acts (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/08/rape-nothing-to-do-with-islam.html) of individuals.
Oslo rape statistics shock
Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin. Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo's Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising - the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments. While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases
The situation in Denmark is the same.A view from a Danish cultural psychologist. In Danish (http://www.sharia.dk/Skribenter/damgaard/voldtaegt.html)
Er det etnisk krig, frustreret seksualitet eller blot et sammenfald af omstændigheder?
Watchman
04-01-2006, 17:48
You know strike, we were actually at our most badass during the Early Modern pike-and-shot period. Sweden owned half Northern Europe back then and whupped all comers on the field.
Gå på! :charge:
Yeah, I know the rough framework of the theory I posted leaves much to be desired, but come on now - it's an awfully complicated one which takes acclaimed professors entire books to thoroughly formulate and explain. Nevermind now the national differences... I've my limitations, and mainly sought to present the basic frame of analytical thinking.
Here's a few rhetorical questions concerning the postulated high crime rate of the immigrants.
First, how well is that related to equivalent rates of natives in similar social circumstances ? Obviously the disenfranchised and alienated are more likely to commit crimes regardless of ethnic background or whatever - how does the degree of such negative factors among the immigrants compare to the natives ? Or, bluntly, how does their proportional crime rate relate to that of the natives in similar circumstances ?
Second, have you considered the disparity between "willingness to report crime" and "actual rate of crime" ? For example, Finnish authorities flatly estimate they never hear about at least three-quarter of the rapes committed in the country, partly as in the majority of the cases the offender is at least peripherally known to the victim. It is sometimes pessimistically observed that the home is one of the most singularly dangerous environments in Finland, particularly to women - quite possibly the better part of serious violence happens "within four walls." "Street rapes" are by far the minority of sexual assaults, but are disproportionately represented among those that reach the consciousness of the authorities and the public; particularly if committed by obvious "foreigners," which duly get lambasted in the headlines of the ever-opportunistic yellow press.
Thank you :bow:
Interesting numbers in that research.
Alright I admit that majority of the rapes are done by immigrants even tho it is only 0.22% of the total number of immigrants.
Would never have guessed that danes,norweigan and finns are the second largest group that commit crimes:dizzy2: .
And that swedes are the ones commiting most of the violent crimes.
That only 12.4% of all immigrants commit crime was a surprise tho.
I expected it to be higher considering nazis love to go out and claim that over 50% commit crimes.
Of course this means that 87.6% of lawbiding people are being lumped together with these messly 12.4% which is sad to see :no: .
That 12.4 % (I thought this was a high number because people use to say only a small percentage of them are criminals) of immegrants are suspected for crime means over 100 000 persons. :no: It is horrible that hardworking honest immegrants shall be lumped together with these, I agree.
I think a solution is to send every criminal immegrant out. Sure, it may not be fair in all cases, but the status of being an immegrant would be raised high above what the situation is now.
People would have possitive and not negative steriotypes of immegrants. Sadly, the only parties that actually will send the criminal ones out are SD and naziparties.
Edit: Swedes, danes, norwegians and finns do alot of crimes because we are the largest groups of people here. Quite logical.
But if you look at overrepresentation Africans are worst and Swedes, Americans and other anglo-saxon descendants behave best.
But as I said, nationality ought not count. Whereever you come from you shall be kicked out if you comit crimes.
I think a solution is to send every criminal immegrant out.
It seems that they do this sometimes but not always.
Can't remember when but there was one case that sparked a big debate about this and huge number of people did support it.
Louis VI the Fat
04-01-2006, 18:16
Second, have you considered the disparity between "willingness to report crime" and "actual rate of crime" ? For example, Finnish authorities flatly estimate they never hear about at least three-quarter of the rapes committed in the country, partly as in the majority of the cases the offender is at least peripherally known to the victim. It is sometimes pessimistically observed that the home is one of the most singularly dangerous environments in Finland, particularly to women - quite possibly the better part of serious violence happens "within four walls." "Street rapes" are by far the minority of sexual assaults, but are disproportionately represented among those that reach the consciousness of the authorities and the public; particularly if committed by obvious "foreigners," which duly get lambasted in the headlines of the ever-opportunistic yellow press.Aye, good points.
Of course, amidst all this talk about Europeans as victims of immigrant crime, we have forgotten the main victims: immigrants themselves. Most immigrant crime that is reported, considers an immigrant perpetrator and a white victim. But, alas, I fear that that mainly reflects how much crime amongst immigrants themselves remains hidden.
Consider this story by a young, French immigrant Muslim woman. The story from the inside.
Link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/13/60minutes/main617270.shtml)
"I was gang raped by three people I knew, and I couldn't say anything, because in my culture, your family is dishonored if you lose your virginity."
“There was a trial in Lille where a 13-year-old girl was gang raped by 80 men. Sometimes, it’s 80, or 50 or 10. It’s absolutely terrible,” says Bellil. “In the case of Argenteuil, it was horrible. A young woman was raped in a school. Of course, everybody knew, but they're so afraid of these young men that they prefer to close their eyes. That's the price of peace in the ghettos.”
When the verdicts came down in this case, the courthouse turned into a madhouse. Eighteen teenagers were convicted of raping a 15-year-old girl over a two-month period. But what really shocked France was how the mothers of those boys reacted.
“You call this justice, seven years in prison for some oral sex,” says one mother. “It's the girl who should be behind bars.”
But nothing prepared France for what happened to a 17-year-old French Muslim girl named Sohane Benziane. Her case really woke up the country to the nightmare that has been festering so long in these projects.
Sohane was burned alive in the basement of an apartment complex by a gang leader who had told her that he didn't want to see her on his turf. After her murder, her sister, Kahina, dedicated a memorial at the site of her killing.
And just in case there was any doubt about where loyalties lie in these projects, when the young man accused of killing Sohane returned with police to show how he had doused her with gasoline, the highrise he had controlled broke out in cries of support.
That just infuriated Samira Bellil enough to help lead a national movement against this violence. “Before, they would rape us. Now, they're burning us alive. Sohane can't speak anymore, so I'm gonna do the talking,” says Bellil.
“Ni putes ni soumises" is a provocative slogan that, roughly translated, means “We're neither whores nor doormats.” It's a movement that sprang out of the ghettos, made up of mostly immigrant women who are now fighting back against the gang rapes and violence that plague their neighborhoods.
Watchman
04-01-2006, 18:21
Ouch. Yeah, the Frech ghettoes tend to be regarded as real hellholes even up here. Total worst-case "social trap" scenario by all accounts.
Strike For The South
04-01-2006, 18:33
Wow. I thought America was bad but wow. We dont have mass gang rapes or this # of ethnic crimes. Why dont yall do something? Im mean are yall gonna sit back and take it. Where are all the vikings?
Watchman
04-01-2006, 18:38
:rtwno:
strike... if you don't have any idea of what you're talking about, spare the mutual embarassement and don't, okay ?
:shame:
Strike For The South
04-01-2006, 18:49
thats not what I meant. I mean here is my question. Has this been a festering problem? Has this started to happen recently? Are people still in denil and dont think its happening. Im just trying to get the storty brotha.:book:
Proletariat
04-01-2006, 18:52
:rtwno:
strike... if you don't have any idea of what you're talking about, spare the mutual embarassement and don't, okay ?
:shame:
That's a pretty reasonable response.
:dizzy2:
Watchman
04-01-2006, 19:09
Given that he was confusing the Swedish and French issues, quite.
To answer the rather better formulated question, it is my impression the French ghettoes aren't exactly anything new but have developed over several decades; Louis can probably provide details. As tends to be the case with blighted "ethnic" suburbs, they've tended to go "under the radar" until things have gotten really serious.
As for Sweden, I'm under the impression the troubles are a quite recent phenomenom - last decade or so or thereabouts. Given that everyone's been going increasingly to Hell during the same period, I'm not all that surprised.
Proletariat
04-01-2006, 19:15
Fuhget it.
I find it quite funny that you can speak for the entire population. Last time I checked roughly 15% voted for DF. And let me tell you, if Venstre + Konservative had any option to form a governmed with Radikale Venstre, for example, we would never see this huge tightening of our borders, why? Because it is NOT liberal policy, they only do it to give DF something, so that they will vote for the finance acts etc.
And it's quite funny that you generalize and say 'holier than thou' types, what do you mean with that? Are you one of those types, simply because you care for others? Are you now not allowed to look beyond little green denmark? Wake up, this isnt the age of nationstates, in the horizon is globalization, it's not gonna stay away because we lock our main gate.
Venstre and Konservative will form up with Det Radikale Vesntre? Yes, that is a pretty sensible thing.... If Det Radikale Venstre would come down from their selfloathing high horse in these matters. Remember they have said themselves that they won't support what the government has done ever. Clearly the dividing line is in this loaded issue.
Liberal issue? The true Liberals never had to contend with this, so it can't ever be a Liberal politcy since no preceedence for it exists. Btw, K is not Liberal, they are conservative and these kind of things are very much for them. Their main virtue is that of personal responseability. So when people do something wrong K want to do something about it.
Why do you think VK has won the last two elections? Economics? No way, people don't trust politicians in these matters, that they have since proven they would do it has only helped in that (the support is now more firm).
No Venstre gained the support it needed because it said it would firm up on the issue we are discussing here. Who did it? Not DF. They were just happy to see it happen, but if you have noticed they do not think enough has been done.
I do not generalize about the 'holier than thou' people. They are not that many really, but they are very visible as they are in general quite well educated. But what is wrong with them is simply that to them there is only one truth. When somebody don't behave like they want them to, they go all militaristic on them. Exibit 1: Marianne Jelved!
She does not hold back on spewing out attacks that have not real basis other than her being mad that she isn't in power like she used to. And I understand her. After so many years where your party is the deciding factor for governments, after holdingthe power to topple or keep the governement, it is understandable that she is furious. But right now there is no alternative to her in opposition (Socialdemokratiet? Not now), so of course her support is on the the rise.
You are of course allowed to look beyond our borders. In fact it is important to do so. But not when "there is something rotten in the state of Denmark". We need to clear up the mess of former governments, left-wing and right-wing alike. It can't help that we try to put out the fire without first cutting off the fuel. Later we can open it up again.
thats not what I meant. I mean here is my question. Has this been a festering problem? Has this started to happen recently? Are people still in denil and dont think its happening. Im just trying to get the storty brotha.:book:
This shit started wih the massive immegration. 50 years ago you could leave your bag on the street and no one would take it.
People was honest. And no Swede had never never heard of group rapes before the immegration.
I wouldn't say people are doing nothing. More and more are leaning to right-winged/nationalistic parties. I am one of them.
Our nationalist-party got 1.5% the last election (an increase with 400%). The election this year will take them to a new high...
I wouldn't say people are doing nothing. More and more are leaning to right-winged/nationalistic parties. I am one of them.
Our nationalist-party got 1.5% the last election (an increase with 400%). The election this year will take them to a new high...
and that counts as doing something? :laugh4:
politics honestly solves very little, especially if the problem has already developed so much...
and that counts as doing something? :laugh4:
politics honestly solves very little, especially if the problem has already developed so much...
What do you want me to do? :sweatdrop: Become a new 'Laseman' (he shot alot of foreigners in Stockholm). The only thing you can do is to vote and defend your near and dear. :2thumbsup:
william the bastard
04-01-2006, 20:34
Louis where are you read or hear that. I am leaving near Lille and never heard about this. I aminterresting to know your sources.
here was a trial in Lille where a 13-year-old girl was gang raped by 80 men. Sometimes, it’s 80, or 50 or 10. It’s absolutely terrible,” says Bellil. “In the case of Argenteuil, it was horrible. A young woman was raped in a school. Of course, everybody knew, but they're so afraid of these young men that they prefer to close their eyes. That's the price of peace in the ghettos.”
What do you want me to do? :sweatdrop: Become a new 'Laseman' (he shot alot of foreigners in Stockholm). The only thing you can do is to vote and defend your near and dear. :2thumbsup:
well answered :2thumbsup:
Louis VI the Fat
04-01-2006, 21:21
Louis where are you read or hear that. I am leaving near Lille and never heard about this. I aminterresting to know your sources.I provided a link with my post, I quoted from an article about Samira Bellil.
She wrote the great book 'Dans l'enfer des tournantes'. Unfortunately, this brave woman died last year. Link. (http://www.assembleecitoyenne.ouvaton.org/SPIP-v1-8b2/article.php3?id_article=81)
Here is a French link (http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/silenceselectif/bid18.htm) on that gang rape in particular.
Viol collectif de Roubaix - Violée 86 fois à 13 ans - Janvier 2002
Au printemps 2001, une pré-adolescente alors agée de douze ans devient la cible des agressions sexuelles d’une bande de jeunes. Elle a le profil type de la victime des tournantes: Elle est issue d’un milieu modeste, particulièrement vulnérable et habite dans un quartier immigré de la communauté urbaine de Lille.Try these newspaper articles:
23 janvier 2002 - La voix du Nord - "Viol à répétition sur une adolescente de 13 ans"
24 janvier 2002 – Le Figaro – "Une collégienne de 13 ans martyrisée par une bande" par Jean Valbay
16 février 2002 - Le Monde - Neuf mineurs mis en examen pour viols sur une collégienne de 13 ans.
Oh, and did I already mention that girl that was gang-raped in broad daylight by seven arab men in the train in Lille?
Viol Collectif du Train Dunkerque Lille - 31 mai 2001
Trois jours s'écoulent à peine après que le Figaro ait signalé le Viol collectif d'Aix en Provence que c'est au tour du quotidien la Voix du Nord de signaler qu'un autre viol collectif a eut lieu, cette fois-ci en plein jour et dans un train. Le 24 mai 2001, une bande de sept jeunes montent dans le train Dunkerque-Lille à l'arrêt de la gare de Bailleul. Ces jeunes, selon la Voix du Nord, habitent à Lille sud, un quartier difficile où vivent énormément de maghrébins et où, depuis, a été ouvert le premier lycée musulman de France. Trés vite, ils vont intimider les quelques passagers qui se trouvent dans le wagon, puis les jeunes brutes vont remarquer une étudiante qu'ils vont violer pendant la demie heure de trajet qui mène à Lille. Les médias parleront par la suite de l'indifférence de 200 passagers du Lille Dunkerque. En réalité, il n'y avait dans le Wagon que 5 ou 6 personnes, (moins que d'agresseurs) selon le témoignage de la victime, diffusé par Associated Press sur Yahoo News.
Une fois encore, le viol du Dunkerque-Lille marque une montée dans la violence. 7 ans plus tôt, comme dans le cas du viol de la cité des Eiders, les violeurs entrainaient leurs victime dans une cave. En 1999, comme à Grigny, les viols collectifs étaient devenus une attraction dans la cité. Désormais, on se sert: on se promène dans un centre commercial, on repère une femme vulnérable et on la viole, comme dans le cas d'Aix-en-Provence. Ou bien on prend le train et on viole une passagère entre deux arrêts, histoire de passer le temps...
doc_bean
04-02-2006, 00:01
So...why don't ya' all just arrest those rapist and throw away the keys ?
Hell is full of people who stood by and did nothing when others were hurt, or so some religious people dare claim, it seems France is too.
Seriously people, we're to blame as much as the immigrants (as a whole) for what is happening. I'll repeat myself, a tough approach towards crime regardless of racial of religious bias is what's needed in Europe. No more 'he had a bad childhood' BS, you do the crime, you do the time. And while we're at it, let's increase the time. You get three years for raping over a dozen children here, if you're unlucky. How do we expect to keep the freaks in check with laughable punishments like that ?
Strike For The South
04-02-2006, 00:07
So...why don't ya' all just arrest those rapist and throw away the keys ?
Hell is full of people who stood by and did nothing when others were hurt, or so some religious people dare claim, it seems France is too.
Seriously people, we're to blame as much as the immigrants (as a whole) for what is happening. I'll repeat myself, a tough approach towards crime regardless of racial of religious bias is what's needed in Europe. No more 'he had a bad childhood' BS, you do the crime, you do the time. And while we're at it, let's increase the time. You get three years for raping over a dozen children here, if you're unlucky. How do we expect to keep the freaks in check with laughable punishments like that ?
SHUT UP YOU AMERICAN THIS IS WHY YOURE SOCITEY IS BACKWARDS WE EUROPEANS ARE SO MUCH MORE INTELLGNT. JAIL TIME PFFT THAT JUST SHOWS HOW STUPID AMERICANS ACTULLY ARE! IM SO GLAD I LIVE IN EUROPE /has sezuire
You make allot of sense brotha:2thumbsup:
EDIT: didnt read the spoiler :P
Reenk Roink
04-02-2006, 00:17
Yeah, punish them...harshly. :yes:
Countries with this problem need a stronger police presence, need to catch these criminals, and punish them. I think that was my first post in this thread...:idea2:
here was a trial in Lille where a 13-year-old girl was gang raped by 80 men.
Whoa. Most people can't plan a gang bang that big..
SHUT UP YOU AMERICAN THIS IS WHY YOURE SOCITEY IS BACKWARDS WE EUROPEANS ARE SO MUCH MORE INTELLGNT. JAIL TIME PFFT THAT JUST SHOWS HOW STUPID AMERICANS ACTULLY ARE! IM SO GLAD I LIVE IN EUROPE /has sezuire
You make allot of sense brotha:2thumbsup:
Heh :laugh4: . Yes some people over here are stupid.
If you say you shall put the criminals in jail for a long time, people respond "Look at USA! They got long jailtimes but alot more criminals than us!!11".
I bet you would be very surprised if you came here and spoke to the avarage anti-american.
Hell I have even heard people blaming US for the tsunamiwaves. It was something about you took oil and creating holes under the soil surface...
The worst part is that they where serious.
its very easy to have a country to blame everything on :idea2:
Watchman
04-02-2006, 16:36
People like easy, stupid explanations and scapegoats here too, I'm afraid.
Harsh penalties, incidentally, aren't worth a jack by themselves as a crime preventive. The US is actually a pretty brilliant concrete example. What's needed is law enforcement sufficiently effective to ansure large enough part of offenders are caught and duly prosecuted to begin with; that's a way more effective deterrent. It's apparently generally thought to be a fairly relaible sign of a fundamentally dysfunctional law enforcement system if relatively few offenders are caught, but those that are receive very severe punishements.
Plus "harsher sentences" is a populist knee-jerk reaction that crops up on almost regular basis everywhere. The authorities generally ignore it, as "hanging men for stealing caps" (à la early 1800s British court practice...) is a kinda sucky standard and the figurative logical end result of heeding that demand.
'Course, it also helps rather a lot if the social conditions make crime undesirable in the first place.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
04-02-2006, 17:01
harsh measures do work, maybe not as a deterrent, but chop the hand of a thief and he won't steal again, chop the cock off a rapist and he won't rape again, execute a murderer and he won't murder again.
Just saying, the U.S.'s harsh punishments really aren't all that harsh compared to those mentioned above. Maybe they could be harsher?
:laugh4:
Watchman
04-02-2006, 17:06
Well, the Sharia *is* literally Medieval legislation...
Doesn't men's sex drive (and for that matter ability) die if you just chop off their nuts though ? I'm pretty sure that's how it was done with most eunuchs in history.
Taffy_is_a_Taff
04-02-2006, 17:20
choppy choppy is the way to be.:2thumbsup:
Reenk Roink
04-02-2006, 17:31
Now, since Sveden (I love spelling it that way :2thumbsup:) has a Christian background, sharia would be quite misplaced there. Better to go with Mosaic law.
:rolleyes:
Lets be serious here...
Getting tough on crime does work, believe it or not...
Of course, this needs to be combined with a stronger police presence and also, attempts to root out the causes of crime.
As for the third, poverty has been mentioned, but I am also going to throw in idleness in the mix. My locale is the perfect example of that. I live in quite an affulent suburb in Oakland County, the third wealthiest in the US. Yet, amazingly, we have crime too. Aside from freakish incidents on blue moons (a woman who happened to be my former 4th grade teacher hacked her husband up: http://www.theoaklandpress.com/stories/120104/loc_20041201016.shtml) very little goes on here. But the small crimes: vandalism, jaywalking, fights, and petty theft, are all committed by kids who come from upper middle class families, but have nothing to do except for set up "gangs" (quite funny, because of how soft they are).
It seems that these immigrant rapists have nothing better to do than get into gangs to feel hard@$$ and pick on women. They are unemployed, but it seems like they don't want to work. A far cry from their hardworking parents...
doc_bean
04-02-2006, 17:38
People like easy, stupid explanations and scapegoats here too, I'm afraid.
Harsh penalties, incidentally, aren't worth a jack by themselves as a crime preventive. The US is actually a pretty brilliant concrete example. What's needed is law enforcement sufficiently effective to ansure large enough part of offenders are caught and duly prosecuted to begin with;
I mentioned the need for 'better' law enforcement before the need for harsher punishments, I believe.
Plus "harsher sentences" is a populist knee-jerk reaction that crops up on almost regular basis everywhere. The authorities generally ignore it, as "hanging men for stealing caps" (à la early 1800s British court practice...) is a kinda sucky standard and the figurative logical end result of heeding that demand.
Pedophiles get months here, not years, if you have a sentence that is less than three months you don't have to go to jail at all (for some reason no one can really comprehend, other than that we don't have enough room in our jails and that the government doesn't want to invest in new ones). Shoplifters generally aren't prosecuted, murder MIGHT get you three years...
It's not a populist reaction I'm having here. We don't discourage crime enough. I knew a guy going through an ugly divorce that was advised by a bunch of his friends to just kill his wife. He might have to go to jail for a few years (although, temp insanity...) but he would have been better off. There is something wrong with society if murder becomes a viable option of solving your problems, even if you get caught.
Watchman
04-02-2006, 17:48
I'll be taking that with a spoonful of salt, but assuming you're not exaggerating (and I must say I've poor experiences of people's judgement in these matters in general) I must admit that seems a bit bugged.
Could also be an attitude problem though. Aversion to murder shouldn't be dependent upon the sentence it brings but a moral impulse, shouldn't it ?
doc_bean
04-02-2006, 18:56
I'll be taking that with a spoonful of salt, but assuming you're not exaggerating (and I must say I've poor experiences of people's judgement in these matters in general) I must admit that seems a bit bugged.
I swear I just googled 'pedophile sentence' (in dutch) and looked for pages in Belgium: the first article I found was this (in Dutch) Typical... (http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.aspx?ArticleID=GDQE6T1A) in short: a pedophile is sueing for damages because one of his victims wrote a book mentioning him and he lost his job. The interesting part of the article (translated and condesend) : 144 victims were identiofied but there was only enough evidence to prosecute him for 24 cases. He didn't get a sentence in his first trial (don't know the legal term in English), in appeal he got 6 months non-effective.
:help:
EDIT: if you're looking for articles to prove me wrong, please keep in mind that most criminals get released after having served 1/3 of their actual sentence, so if someone can get a maximum of 7 years (like an author of childrens novels who came into the news last year, accused of raping 25 little boys) it really means he's going to get 2.5. Minus what he did pre-trial (I even think this counts double, I'm not sure though)
EDIT2: he got six years, and it's 2/3 of the sentence for second time offenders, sinc ehe was already sentenced for similar facts in the seventies he might get four whole years...
Could also be an attitude problem though. Aversion to murder shouldn't be dependent upon the sentence it brings but a moral impulse, shouldn't it ?
Of course, but doesn't it work both ways ? If crime isn't punished, doesn't it become (morally) acceptable ? The severity of a sentence surely is a measure of how 'bad' society thinks the crime is, at least in the mind of the average person. Aren't weak sentences saying 'It is understandable' ? And isn't making things like murder understandable a fundamental first step towards making them acceptable ?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for shooting every common criminal, I'm just asking for punishment in relation to the crime. A victims life is often ruined (with pedophilia or rape, definitely ruined with murder.. ), is it fair that criminal only gets a few months ? A pedophile can rape hundreds of kids, during many many years, yet he is not even taken out of common society ? Where is the logic in that ? How is this helping society, how is this protecting the people from dangerous, immoral individuals ?
Watchman
04-02-2006, 19:17
By what I know of it the relationship is a bit more complex, but to a degree you are correct; if the general view is that crimes aren't punished (ie. the authorities aren't doing their job properly) the respect to laws tends to go down which tends to lead to more crime tends to lead to even less regard for the rules and so on, and when people feel they cannot anymore trust on the deterrent effect of wrongdoing being punished they will become increasingly hesitant to trust other people in general. And when people don't trust each other anymore the society stops working well in many other ways.
So, certainly, that's a problem. It's a problem if people widely believe the laws don't do their job or aren't properly enforced; it's worse still if that's the truth (although in these matters the perception of reality has by far more influence than the fact of it)...
thats not what I meant. I mean here is my question. Has this been a festering problem? Has this started to happen recently? Are people still in denil and dont think its happening. Im just trying to get the storty brotha.:book:
Nah it has always been there, but it is becomming such a big issue that even the most radical carrotmuncher can no longer pretend it isn't happening. If you dared question the multicultists they destroyed you, bye bye job/carreer/legs. A good example is Janmaat, a right-wing politician that has been dragged to courts for saying things that are pretty common to say nowadays. An assasination-attempt (his wife lost both her legs) wasn't even investigated by the police. Desperate denial with force.
Kralizec
04-03-2006, 14:18
A lot of the stuff Janmaat said was downright racist, Fragony. Pim Fortuyn explicitly said he didn't want to be associated with him.
Other then that, I agree. For a long time it was 'not done' to question the multicultural society, but we're past that now, and there's no use in beating a dead horse.
Tribesman
04-03-2006, 14:28
A good example is Janmaat, a right-wing politician that has been dragged to courts for saying things that are pretty common to say nowadays. An assasination-attempt (his wife lost both her legs) wasn't even investigated by the police. Desperate denial with force.
A prime example of bull excrement there , what a surprise :dizzy2:
A gathering of various Dutch fascists and German neo-nazis ends up getting attacked by anti fascist groups and a woman ends up having a leg amputated due to complications arising from a bone fracture .
But of course don't let facts get in the way , it was clearly an assasination attempt and clearly the police didn't investigate it :no:
Would you like to tell us some of the common things that this fascist piece of excrement says that are quite common nowadays Frag ?
Would you like to start with his comments on the Jews , the blacks ,the asians , the muslims, the South Americans ?????
Nazi scum , its a pity the head wasn't amputated , as obviously racist gobshites don't have anything worthwhile in their heads so they wouldn't really miss it would they .
A good example is Janmaat, a right-wing politician that has been dragged to courts for saying things that are pretty common to say nowadays. An assasination-attempt (his wife lost both her legs) wasn't even investigated by the police. Desperate denial with force.
A prime example of bull excrement there , what a surprise :dizzy2:
A gathering of various Dutch fascists and German neo-nazis ends up getting attacked by anti fascist groups and a woman ends up having a leg amputated due to complications arising from a bone fracture .
But of course don't let facts get in the way , it was clearly an assasination attempt and clearly the police didn't investigate it :no:
Would you like to tell us some of the common things that this fascist piece of excrement says that are quite common nowadays Frag ?
Would you like to start with his comments on the Jews , the blacks ,the asians , the muslims, the South Americans ?????
Nazi scum , its a pity the head wasn't amputated , as obviously racist gobshites don't have anything worthwhile in their heads so they wouldn't really miss it would they .
Ya that is how it happened, there was a firebomb thrown in his office, and his wife lost both her legs. That wasn't enough though, after that he couldn't even get a permit to build her an elevator so she could get to the second floor. And no clash between groups, the 'antifacists' did terrorise a few meeting though.
Would you like to tell us some of the common things that this fascist piece of excrement says that are quite common nowadays Frag ?
Close the borders, kick out illegals, crime among immigrants being higher, that sort of stuff. There have even been proposals to clear his name because this is all part of the political debate nowadays.
Would you like to start with his comments on the Jews , the blacks ,the asians , the muslims, the South Americans ?????
Apparantly you know more then me. Nothing of that as far as I know.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Janmaat
edit: assasination attempt was at a hotel, not his office, my bad.
Tribesman
04-03-2006, 18:07
Apparantly you know more then me. Nothing of that as far as I know.
Really ?? then what were all his convictions for ?
Close the borders, kick out illegals, crime among immigrants being higher, that sort of stuff. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Come off it Frag , either you know full well that he said a lot more than that , or you don't really know about your extreme right wing nutjobs .
There have even been proposals to clear his name because this is all part of the political debate nowadays.
Bollox , there may be some idiots making proposals but there is no way they can overturn his convictions, so they can't clear his name can they , but then again he probably would have been proud of his name as a hate filled racist bigot wouldn't he .
Really ?? then what were all his convictions for ?
For this remark 'full is full', can't make it any better for you. Ask a fellow dutchie for comfirmation. Untill he died he tried to clear his name at european court, because Fortuyn and Bolkenstein said the same things without being prosecuted.
Come off it Frag , either you know full well that he said a lot more than that , or you don't really know about your extreme right wing nutjobs .
I think you have someone else in mind, but I have no idea who that could be. He wasn't that extreme really. It just wasn't the time to make such remarks.
Bollox , there may be some idiots making proposals but there is no way they can overturn his convictions, so they can't clear his name can they , but then again he probably would have been proud of his name as a hate filled racist bigot wouldn't he
Well if he was he probably wouldn't have bothered. Sorry, you got it wrong.
Tribesman
04-03-2006, 22:49
For this remark 'full is full'
Wow you can get convicted in a court for saying "full is full" !!!!!!!!
Blimey that has to be one for the record books .
So young Mr. fragony , when did you develop this strange taste for embellishment of the truth ?
He wasn't that extreme really. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: who are you trying to kid ?:inquisitive:
Kralizec
04-03-2006, 22:59
EDIT: nevermind
I'll find some Janmaat quotes to put things in a more accurate perspective.
Wow you can get convicted in a court for saying "full is full" !!!!!!!!
Blimey that has to be one for the record books .
That I agree with. Also: 'own people first', should have added that. I know wikimedia isn't the best source but I edited a link in the post above.
'Zijn verkiezingsleuzen 'Vol = Vol' en 'Eigen Volk Eerst' leidden tot veroordelingen wegens discriminatie'
Tribesman
04-04-2006, 08:18
I know wikimedia isn't the best source but I edited a link in the post above.
Well in that case visit some fascist websites , or some anti-fascist ones , that way you can get lots of information on Hanmaat from both sides .
Could you just clarify one point for me Frag ? when the police catch someone in the act of firebombing somewhere you don't like then you call it a malicious prosecution over nothing , when the police fail to catch someone firebombing somewhere you do like then you call it not even investigated .
Could you explain the reasoning in that ? there must be some reasoning involved , it must make some sort of sense .
So can you explain it in simple words as it seems to make no sense at all .
Well in that case visit some fascist websites , or some anti-fascist ones , that way you can get lots of information on Hanmaat from both sides .
I don't think these sites will be unbiased, and I don't like their company.
Could you just clarify one point for me Frag ? when the police catch someone in the act of firebombing somewhere you don't like then you call it a malicious prosecution over nothing,
That bombing never took place, he saw the mosk was guarded and drove back. Friends had informed the police that he wanted to, *beng* 3 years in jail. I can rape a whole kindergarten and get less. So malicious prosecution over nothing indeed.
, when the police fail to catch someone firebombing somewhere you do like then you call it not even investigated .
Because it wasn't.
Could you explain the reasoning in that ? there must be some reasoning involved , it must make some sort of sense .
If you can make sense of it you are a better man then me.
Tribesman
04-04-2006, 08:48
I don't think these sites will be unbiased,
Thats the idea Frag , you get the views and quotes on him from people who agree with him and people who disagree with him , its called balance:idea2:
That bombing never took place,
Irrelevant , he conspired to commit a crime , he made incendiary devices with the intention of committing a crime , he went out equipped to commit a crime ,he tried to commit a crime .All of which are convictable offences .
Because it wasn't.
Bollox .Why do you feel the need to lie ?:no:
doc_bean
04-04-2006, 09:46
'Eigen Volk Eerst'
What, are 'fascist' party has been using that slogan since as long as I can remember, I hope they sued for plagarism !
:laugh4:
Kralizec
04-04-2006, 11:20
"he can't occupy any important office, because he is of jewish descent."
(Janmaat speaking about former minister Hirsch Ballin)
I also found several sources that say he was against black players playin in the national soccer team. Unfortunately I couldn't find a literal quote.
The reason why Janmaat quotes are so rare is of course the fact that he was largely ignored.
Oh and Fragony, why is it that both the SP in the 80'ties and Bolkestein made similar criticism, both WAY before Fortuyn entered national politics, and were not prosecuted?
Tribesman
04-04-2006, 17:02
Kralizecc , the difference is some people can make comments about immigration without resorting to hate speech and racial discrimination and some cannot .
That is why some people are prosecuted and some are not .
Thats the idea Frag , you get the views and quotes on him from people who agree with him and people who disagree with him , its called balance:idea2:
Radical lefties and neo nazi's, no thanks.
Irrelevant , he conspired to commit a crime , he made incendiary devices with the intention of committing a crime , he went out equipped to commit a crime ,he tried to commit a crime .All of which are convictable offences .
Would be if Samir A wasn't released, because he only intended to blow stuff up. Exactly the same thing but different treatment. And, there were also a few churches torched back then, no arrests whatsoever, was of course a reaction. One of those churches is where I live, and the police knows who did it. And even if it could be punnished, 3 years is way out of proportion, you get less for beating someone to death.
Bollox .Why do you feel the need to lie ?:no:
I don't.
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