MTW: Morale and Religious Buildings

[Bremen]

I looked around the forums for a definitive answer on this question, but haven't found it (I'm sure it here somewhere.) I did some experimenting on the issue of religious buildings and morale and found then using the F1 key on the battle map and following to be true:

Church only: +2 morale on battlefield
Church+Monastery: +2 morale
Monastery only (destroyed church): +2 morale
Church+Monastery+Reliquary: +4 morale
Church+Monastery+Reliquary+Cathedral: +6 morale
Church+Cathedral: +6 morale
Cathedral only (destroyed church): +6 morale

According to the guides, its Church +1, Monastery +1, Reliquary +2, and Cathedral +3. So it seems to me that you take the highest level of building you've got and multiply it by 2. Thus, there is no added benefit from a monastery until you build a reliquary because the monastery bonus is at the same level as the church. If you have a cathedral, adding a monastery or reliquary will add nothing either.

Is this right? Any other nuances?

[Ludens]

Interesting. I always thought it was straightforwardly what the building scroll said. Exactly how did you do your tests?

Edit: welcome to the Org, BTW ~:wave: .

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, Bremen! ~:wave:

I hadn't noticed that either. Like Ludens, I just went by what the scrolls said.

[Bremen]

I always went by the scrolls as well. In one battle, however, I had some vikings that had been built in a province with a church and others whom I had built in a province with a church and a monastery, but I noticed that everyone had the same morale. This lead me to do some research.:book: I've concluded that the scrolls are misleading, but if you interpret them correctly, they make sense.

I looked around the forums here and at monastery.com, but there was nothing definitive, and a lot that seems to be incorrect (or that just refers to another version of the game - I'm playing MTW: VI patched, on hard or expert) There are several threads that mention that you need to multiply the religious building morale bonus by 2. This is correct, but has been misinterpreted by many posters.

To perform my tests, I built a new stack of units in a province with different building combinations and recorded the names of the leaders of each unit. (Experiments were done on hard, which gives no morale bonus to player or computer, according to religious guide.) To expedite the process, I used the .worksundays. cheat code. Then I dropped the armies onto an enemy province and looked at the F1 stats for each unit. I tried this with leading generals who had no command and others with many stars. I attacked lightly held rebel provinces, and another faction's major army. I've tried it with vikings, +1 valor vikings from Norway, archers, feudal sergeants, and royal knights, all in different provinces. I've experimented with the 6 "natural" combinations of religious buildings (i.e. what you would actually build) as well as "unnatural" combinations which would require destruction (e.g. building a church and a cathedral, then destroying the church) Always the same results.

My conclusions::idea2:
The religious building morale bonus is similar to the armorer or weapons upgrade. There are three levels of buildings:
+1 Buildings: Church and Monastery
+2 Buildings: Reliquary
+3 Buildings: Cathedral

Your troops get one and only one morale bonus, from the highest building in the province. Bonus are not cumulative (just as armor and weapons upgrades are not cumulative.) This is why a church+monastery offers no advantage over just a church; they are both the same level building and you only get one bonus. So you would only build a monastery if you were planning to directly follow it with a reliquary. Think of it as a 14-turn build to get extra morale. It's not very good compared to the cathedral, but you only get one cathedral in MTW:VI patched.

Now to get to the battlefield stats as shown on the F1 report, you need to multiply the +1, +2, or +3 above by 2. Why? I have no idea, but others have noticed this quirk as well. Remember how valor increases morale by 2? I assume the program treats the increase in morale from buildings in a similar manner.

The results for normal combinations:
No Buildings: 0
Church: +2
Church+Monastery: +2
Church+Monastery+Reliquary: +4
Church+Monastery+Reliquary+Cathedral: +6
Church+Cathedral: +6

So the most you can get is +6 and only if you have a cathedral. Note that you can upgrade morale by retraining a unit in a province with a higher building, even if the unit is at full strength, just as you can upgrade valor of a unit by retraining a new unit in a province with a unit-valor bonus (e.g. vikings in norway)

There is only one exception. If you only have a reliquary (i.e. the monastery and church are destroyed) you get no bonus at all. No idea why, but this is really just of theoretical interest.

I see this thread hasn't been read very much. If any of you senior folk think this is helpful, maybe you could move it to the MTW forum? I'd be interested to see if anyone agrees with this or has any evidence to the contrary.

[Bremen]

:oops: - In the post above I said I checked on monastery.com for more info - I meant totalwar.com. I went a little fast through the spellcheck and this got changed.

[Peasant Phill]

You're right, this thread would've been read more in the main hall. Pity you're still a junior member but as far as senior members goes, Ludens and Martok are both very respected. You're research will reach our little community well enough.

[Ludens]

I see this thread hasn't been read very much. If any of you senior folk think this is helpful, maybe you could move it to the MTW forum? I'd be interested to see if anyone agrees with this or has any evidence to the contrary.
Don't worry about the low number of readers: it is usual for M:TW threads in the Entrance Hall. I second the request that this be moved to the Main Hall.

Anyway, you explanation makes sense so that's probably how it works. There have been earlier reports about the inconsistency of morale bonuses.

[Martok]

You're right, this thread would've been read more in the main hall. Pity you're still a junior member but as far as senior members goes, Ludens and Martok are both very respected. You're research will reach our little community well enough.

Unfortunately I'm unable to shift threads either, but I'm definitely for having this one moved to the Main Hall. I have a feeling a lot of MTW players aren't aware of the combined morale effect from churches/monastaries, and that most of us (like Ludens and myself) have just assumed that the information on the scrolls was correct. Fortunately, quite a few MTW people visit the forums here in the Entrance Hall, so hopefully the word should spread before too long.

(Oh, and I don't know about me being a respected member--unlike Ludens--but thanks for your kind words, Peasant Phill. I'm just another fan who loves Medieval Total War, nothing more. ~;p )

[bretwalda]

Very good observations, indeed! I would be curious if there is info or test on the moral effect of muslim buildings.

They have fewer buildings but I believe they are exactly as effective coming from what I read above? I think most muslim units tend to have higher morale without modifiers - however I am far from sure. I play XL mod that can also have several changes on stats.

[bamff]

Hmmm....how did I miss this one? Just call me "Bamff the Myopic"...

Great work Bremen, hats off to you for this research project. I had been labouring under false assumptions as well.....but this will all end with my next campaign as I put your research to good use...

On behalf of all of us here, thanks again for your work! :2thumbsup:

[Mithrandir]

Moved to the wonderful Main Hall as requested ~D.

-Mithrandir.

[Sensei Warrior]

Yup very good work. If your good at battles you should check out the thread about King succession within a battle. That thread is called Succession during battle by Sirron in the MTW/Main Hall forum. If your feeling your oats, you could test that one too and let us know. :2thumbsup: Keep up the good work.