Cretan archers and rhodian slingers in EB? [Archive]

Harniac

07-28-2006, 14:03

Hi all,

First of all, to those who made it: thanks for an awesome mod! I'm actually using it as educational material since I'm attending a class in ancient history right now.

Now to my question. I'm a few years into my first game as the Ptolemaioi. I have done two things worth mentioning; first I conquered Antiocheia, and then Kyrene since I read on this forum that I automatically go to war with the Karthadastim if they beat me to it.

Now I'm at a crossroads strategically, with two options:

1. Either postpone a few building projects and some recruiting to build a level 4 MIC in Antiocheia. This would give me a much needed shock infantry - Ethiopian axemen.

2. Or gather what's left of my army in Kyrene, recruit a lot of mercenaries, and head to Crete ASAP.

My reasoning for the second option is of course Cretan Archers. However, I'm not sure how these are represented in EB. Can someone tell me more about them? Are they mercenaries in EB too? Expensive ones? Can they be recruited anywhere else but in Crete? Will they be worth the huge investment I have to do in hiring a bunch of mercenaries to get them?

And while I'm at it: What about the Rhodian Slingers? How are they represented and where do I recruit them (besides Rhodes)?

I just love cretans and rhodians... Can't live without them. But I have to ask, are they as overpowered in EB as they were in vanilla?

Thanks!

/Martin

Ludens

07-28-2006, 14:11

I have bad news for you: neither is available in the current build of EB. Nor are Balearic slingers. I hope they will be added in the next build.

Welcome to the Org, BTW ~:wave: .

Harniac

07-28-2006, 14:16

I have bad news for you: neither is available in the current build of EB. Nor are Balearic slingers. I hope they will be added in the next build.

Ok! No problem, I can live with that. Then Ethiopians it is (I hope they´re available).

Welcome to the Org, BTW ~:wave: .

Thanks! Seems like a cozy enough place.

Ludens

07-28-2006, 14:19

Ok! No problem, I can live with that. Then Ethiopians it is (I hope they´re available).
Yes, they are. You do need to have a type III government and a level 4 MIC. You can find more information in the temporary recruitment guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=61708).

O'ETAIPOS

07-28-2006, 15:44

Cretan Archers are ready and will be in 0.8

edyzmedieval

07-28-2006, 15:47

And trust me, they are more shocking than the Ethiopian Axemen. ~D

Teleklos Archelaou

07-28-2006, 19:36

I believe SW did the cretan archers for us (which may or may not be in their final state though), and Aymar has done the balaeric slingers for us now too. They will hopefully both be in the big unit update we are expecting very soon on our internal build.

Markus_Aurelius

07-28-2006, 23:42

i hope you throw in the spartans as well

Harniac

07-29-2006, 08:27

Yes, they are. You do need to have a type III government and a level 4 MIC. You can find more information in the temporary recruitment guide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=61708).

Thanks Ludens - that's where i found them, so I know all about the type 3. Nice to hear that they're ready and waiting for me! :2thumbsup: Just 10 more turns...

PseRamesses

07-29-2006, 08:31

Cretan Archers are ready and will be in 0.8
Fantastic news! Finally I can counter all the tremendous archers in the east.

Musopticon?

07-29-2006, 16:46

I do hope they are about as good as eastern archers and not better. I mean, talking about overkill.

PseRamesses

07-30-2006, 08:59

I do hope they are about as good as eastern archers and not better. I mean, talking about overkill.
Agree, any portable missile weapon shouldn´t have more than a missile hit value of 10 during this timeperiod. What I do find unrealistic though is that you can have 60 archers firing arrows, short range, into a group of unshielded soldiers and only kill about 20 per volley. That´s a hit ratio of only33%. What I DO like is that some troops, like many phalanxes in phalanx-mode, are virtually impervious to missiles

Teleklos Archelaou

07-31-2006, 00:55

I totally write off archers when shooting at the front of troops except for a few. Here are the only ways I use archers in EB:

-if the men I'm firing at arer Drapanai, HA, other archers/slingers/akontistai (basically, folks with no shields/armor, or HA who I absolutely must try to kill at range).
-if there is a battle where I've saved my archers - and then wait for a good time to use fire arrows to turn the tide and cause panic (especially helpful in bridge battles).
-if there is a tower or ram heading to the walls then I try to set it on fire with them
-sometimes they can be effective when I've used them to flank and they hit the backs of a unit with arrows or even charging (but flanking with them is very dangerous, since cav and better light infantry will chew them up)

Of course the Eranshr Asabara I use a little differently since they have the nice spears too.

orwell

07-31-2006, 07:33

I tend, or used to, use archers to mow down a lot of barbarian troops since you can place them behind your phalanx line/out of the way, where with slingers you need them in front to be able to kill effectively without killing your troops in the process.

Sdragon

07-31-2006, 15:20

With slingers you just leave them at the back and make sure there is a reasonable gap between them and your front line and it just goes over. You just have to learn when to stop shooting, as the enemy gets closer. They don’t get to shoot as much but the damage they do is greater than any archer unit I've seen. It's why I stopped using archers except in places where I can't make slingers.

PseRamesses

07-31-2006, 16:45

Sdragon & Orwell:
Try using concentrated mass firing with your archers/ slingers. Group them together, select them and right click choosen target. They will now fire all at once. Stop. Select new target etc etc. They´ll cut down unguarded troops like akonstai like wheat on harvest day. 6 missile units will cut down 40-80 soldiers in just one volley.
Sometimes my missiles get unsynced and fires slightly after eachother. Then I order them to stop, wait 5 sec then mass-fire continues in sync. :juggle2:

I also put my missiles on the flanks guarded with spears and cav´s. I always order them to fire diagonally. So my left flank missiles fires to the enemies left flank (my right). this way more missiles will hit the enemy units flank/ side.:dizzy2:

On an approaching enemy I only fire at their cavs.:sweatdrop:

Routing troops are especially wounerable to arrows in their buttocks.:laugh4:

On bridgebattles always place missiles to your left. This way they will fire into the sword side of shielded troops.:book:

Sdragon

07-31-2006, 17:23

Yes but why use archers over slingers? Slingers shoot further, hurt more and have what must be over double the ammunition. I see the sense in Eastern archers but the Western ones suck utterly unless you’re in Gaul territory for example where there are no slingers for hire.

PseRamesses

07-31-2006, 17:42

Fondor_Yards

07-31-2006, 17:47

You can get greek slingers in Massilia, in my Averni campain I gave up on the whimpy celtic archers and only used those babies. The Sphendonitai are the only slingers worth getting. Komatai Sphendonitai don't get ap *plus Komatai Agrianai are sooooo much better*, and Accensi only have an attack of 1 so even with ap they don't kill much. And slingers only have double the ammo amount of the basic archers, the elite ones have much more. Plus archers can use fire arrows, which open up a whole new bag of tricks.

Conqueror

07-31-2006, 17:48

Yes but why use archers over slingers?

Slingers = teh ugly.
Archers = teh pretty.

Musopticon?

08-01-2006, 14:39

And archers have Teh Proton Missile!

Harniac

08-01-2006, 14:48

Cretan Archers are ready and will be in 0.8

Will they be mercenaries or regular (type 3-4?) recruits? Or both?

QwertyMIDX

08-03-2006, 20:49

Well slingers were more commonly used in the west than archers, so things are going well.

Avicenna

08-04-2006, 02:57

And archers have Teh Proton Missile!

I second that!

Anyway, after my experience in vanilla with slingers causing FF when behind friendly lines, I've just abandoned them. Archers are cheaper anyhow, and have nice hats.

Musopticon?

08-04-2006, 08:01

I second that!

Anyway, after my experience in vanilla with slingers causing FF when behind friendly lines, I've just abandoned them. Archers are cheaper anyhow, and have nice hats.

:laugh4:

Seriously though, celtic archers and eastern archers are actually useful, but I don't understand why anyone would use hellenic toxotai. Well, if you just need firearrows, then I guess I see the point, but otherwise they're just cheap garrison troops and wall defenders.

Trithemius

08-07-2006, 02:40

:laugh4:

Seriously though, celtic archers and eastern archers are actually useful, but I don't understand why anyone would use hellenic toxotai. Well, if you just need firearrows, then I guess I see the point, but otherwise they're just cheap garrison troops and wall defenders.

That's why I build 'em! :)

Musopticon?

08-07-2006, 11:29

I kinda self-defeated my argument there, didn't I?

Conqueror

08-09-2006, 17:47

Any chance to hear what factions will be able to recruit these archer and slinger units? If say Carthaginians grab Crete can they recruit the archers with appropiate government type? Also will Makedonia have more cavalry units in 0.8? Right now they have only the expensive (and limited in recruitment areas) Thessalians and Hetairoi. Is there some reason why they can't recruit the basic Hippeis unit in hellenic lands?

Fondor_Yards

08-09-2006, 18:00

From the Diadochoi preview. Also with macedonia money should be a problem, greece is very rich.
Thrakioi Prodromoi
http://www.krusader.be/eb/thrak-prodromoi.jpg

In the Thraikian and Makedonian armies, these medium cavalry are a common sight. The reason for this is that they are excellent medium cavalry, capable of skirmishing, charging, and fighting fairly well in melee. They are armored with good quality linen, bronze helms, and the distinctive Thraikian shields that mark their country of origin. They are an extremely versatile cavalry force that can be given the moniker ‘jack of all trades and master of none’. They are great all-round cavalry, but will not fare well against heavier cavalry or spear or pike armed infantry. They are drawn from the lower Thraikian nobility and many have settled in Makedonia, lured by land grants and higher pay.

Historically, Thraikian light cavalry was some of the best in the ancient world. They proved their worth in battle after battle, whether in Makedonian or Hellene service, or the service of their own kings. Their tactical versatility made them a light cavalry equivalent to the Romaioi legions, well able to perform any battle role and to adapt quickly to any circumstance.

iberus_generalis

08-10-2006, 01:08

why ppl tend to choose between the two? my armies always have 3 units of slingers and 3 of archers...the best of both worlds..the overkill of slingers..the precision and fire arrows of archers...=) sometimes my infatary doesn't eve have to fight...cuz the enemy routs do to heavy casualties...=)

Musopticon?

08-10-2006, 01:54

I try to be sensible with my army compositions, you know, EB being a mod that focuses on historical realism and all.

Simmons

08-10-2006, 03:10

I try to be sensible with my army compositions, you know, EB being a mod that focuses on historical realism and all.
and whats not sensible about that Musopticon?? Those units are cheap and readily available

Fondor_Yards

08-10-2006, 03:46

Well in a historicaly accuarte greek or macedonian army, 3 archers and 3 slingers would be way too much. More like 1 archer and 1 slinger.

Musopticon?

08-10-2006, 09:29

Well, yeah.

Sure that much ranged units are powerful, but that's partly because the enemy has the intelligence of a well-fed pastoral sheep.

Then again, my hordes of cannonfodder aren't historical either...

iberus_generalis

08-10-2006, 09:38

i tried being historical, and although i won battles or they became very dull or i took some medium to heavy casualties...so i grew smarter...got ranged units to protect everyone from the distance...

Avicenna

08-11-2006, 03:52

PseRamesses

08-11-2006, 13:52

Ranged units are hardly overpowered. My toxotai barely manage to scrape 50 kills (large units) even when experienced and using up their whole quiver against some pretty much non-armoured Thanvabara (archers).
Agree totally. The problem is all other shielded units abilities to protect themselves in this game. The testudo formation provides good protection and a phalanx in p-mode too but otherwise most shielded units are too easy to kill. The main focus should be to make a realistic end result. Your example states that your toxotai "only" killed 50 which is actually quite good. Not if you make a mathexample of it like: 60 archers times 50 volleys equals 3000 arrows fired and only 50 kills etc. Since you can´t order most other units into a shieldwall, testudo or phalanx formatio your kill ratio is actually realistic.

Fondor_Yards

08-11-2006, 17:10

Ranged units are hardly overpowered. My toxotai barely manage to scrape 50 kills (large units) even when experienced and using up their whole quiver against some pretty much non-armoured Thanvabara (archers).

That's because Toxotai are the worse archers in the game. Even the celtic archers are better. Plus, I don't know what shielded and armoured units your shooting at PseRamesses, but the only kills I get vs heaviled armoured troops is from behind.

Tyfus

08-11-2006, 21:19

I use achers in my Casse campaign very effectively as part of a home guard force to kill all the really annoying rebels that pop up. My force is made of malagaeros and archers.
I shoot the rebels with fire arrows from far away which makes them pretty scared, then I get close and have the guy-rows fire at will with their javlins which usually does heavy damage, then if they haven't already run from fear of the fire arrows and loss of men then i warcry and charge. They usually dont hold for more then a few seconds and at most I lose 3-5 men. if I added chariots for flanking it could be even more devestating.

never underestimate the power of fear.

in this case archers are pretty useful and effective. my question though is do units get scared if they're being attacked by fire arrows even if they don't lose to many men? like firing at a well armoured phalanx unit? would they still become scared even if not too many of them get killed?

Fondor_Yards

08-12-2006, 03:03

Would you like being hit with flaming darts, scale armour or not? Pretty sure they still are. When shooting at urbans with fire in 1.5 they get the "scared by fire" thingie in their describtion. But it probably does a lot more to reduce morale is they are dieing from it.

PseRamesses

08-12-2006, 07:42

Plus, I don't know what shielded and armoured units your shooting at PseRamesses, but the only kills I get vs heaviled armoured troops is from behind.
If you read my post I never mention armoured units at all and there´s plenty of units with shield that you CAN reduce with missiles since the shield is not used in front or above the unit as arrow coverage. Most spearmen are voulnerable for arrows like the pantadapoi etc.

Fondor_Yards

08-12-2006, 18:08

If you read my post I never mention armoured units at all and there´s plenty of units with shield that you CAN reduce with missiles since the shield is not used in front or above the unit as arrow coverage. Most spearmen are voulnerable for arrows like the pantadapoi etc.

Well most enemies that toxotai will face have some sort of armour if they also have a shield. Other then the mostly useless levies, eastern infantry, and some barbarian infantry, most shielded enemies have an armour rating of at least 6. And if your fighting pantadapoi/eastern infantry, you might as well use eastern archers.

Joeokar

08-12-2006, 19:50