Fragile chariots

[Trithemius]

I was wondering if Casse chariots are getting a bit more resilient in the upcoming version? I find them extremely fragile, almost to the point of being useless, in the current build. Presumably the wealthy chariot-owning class should probably afford some kind of decent armour?

[Fondor_Yards]

Chariots were very fragile in meele. You can't use them like normal cavalry. Charge them through the enemy lines to lower morale and mess up their formation, then sit behind their lines as the infantry charges their disorangized ones. Then during the meele, charge them from behind and chances are they will rout.

[fallen851]

I'm not sure what the EB team is going to do about chariots, because CA created quite a problem with them, chariots are very overpowered in autocalc, but very underpowered in battle.

I've been testing 1.5 for quite some time now, and found a very good method for increasing the effectiveness of chariots in battle, while at the same time slightly reducing their power in autocalc. They aren't tanks in my balance, but they aren't useless like I've seen in Vanilla or .74 EB. I'll be rebalancing the entire EDU text when .8 comes out.

[Tyfus]

whats more important is that there should be a new skin for the chariots so even if they die quickley they'll look good doing it!

[Moros]

whats more important is that there should be a new skin for the chariots so even if they die quickley they'll look good doing it!
not up to date are we?
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/p/chariots.jpg

[Tyfus]

HELLA!!:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :dancinglock: :dancinglock: :cheerleader: :cheerleader: :jumping: :jumping:

Sorry I just had to have a little dance party

[Tyfus]

not up to date are we?

I knew about the pics I just wasn't sure they'd be implemented in .8

[Moros]

Normally they should. Tough nit 100% sure. But I thik they will.

[QwertyMIDX]

Chariots in EB will have a large number of javelins, so you'll be able to get more use of them, they'll be able to charge though lines and then give the enemy headaches from behind by both giving them morale problems and by peppering them with javelins.

[Joeokar]

Chariots in EB will have a large number of javelins, so you'll be able to get more use of them, they'll be able to charge though lines and then give the enemy headaches from behind by both giving them morale problems and by peppering them with javelins.
Interesting:balloon2:

[Trithemius]

Chariots were very fragile in meele. You can't use them like normal cavalry. Charge them through the enemy lines to lower morale and mess up their formation, then sit behind their lines as the infantry charges their disorangized ones. Then during the meele, charge them from behind and chances are they will rout.

They tend to be obliterated when I charge with them too. Perhaps I should be playing with smaller units, but even my tough and hale generals take some serious losses before getting to the other side of an enemy unit with the unit size setting I am using.

I understand that chariots are not especially good in prolonged melee, but neither are cavalry and cavalry do not have the absolute lack of armour that Casse chariots have.

[Trithemius]

not up to date are we?
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/p/chariots.jpg

The guys depicted in this image have more gear on than some of the Casse troops, but still seem to have less armour rating.

[Moros]

The chariots from 0.74 were nothing more then placeholders with no EB stats.
0.8 will have new ones with new stats, more javelins (like Qwerty said) and with this model+skin.

[Trithemius]

The chariots from 0.74 were nothing more then placeholders with no EB stats.
0.8 will have new ones with new stats, more javelins (like Qwerty said) and with this model+skin.

I guess that explains their craptitude then. I look forward to using decent chariots when 0.8 is out, but I think I will let my current Casse campaign lapse for now.

[econ21]

Maybe Qwerty can post some provisional Casse chariot stats? It seems sad that Trithemius cans his campaign, when he easily could edit the a txt file and get something workable.

[Moros]

Maybe Qwerty can post some provisional Casse chariot stats? It seems sad that Trithemius cans his campaign, when he easily could edit the a txt file and get something workable.
Yeah of course he can change them a bit. Tough I believe they aren't throwing javelins now, are they?
I bet Qwerty will respond with something.

[Imperator Silas]

Funny thing, I thought they were pretty tough in the original game:knight: ...

[soibean]

concerning chariots and siege battles
will/can anything be done with this unit when its inside a town?
they seemed completely useless when you were attacking a settlement.

[Simmons]

concerning chariots and siege battles
will/can anything be done with this unit when its inside a town?
they seemed completely useless when you were attacking a settlement.
I don't really know anything about chariot warfare other than they perform better on flat open ground so I can imagine them being pretty crap on the narrow streets of a city

But then I can also imagine clowns dancing on the moon. :clown:

[Trithemius]

Maybe Qwerty can post some provisional Casse chariot stats? It seems sad that Trithemius cans his campaign, when he easily could edit the a txt file and get something workable.

It's okay. I will gladly wait until the release. I am very eager to learn what the dynamic triggers for the Casse "reforms" are. :)

[Darkarbiter]

Historically (well the scythed ones at least) didnt they cut mens legs off or at least wond them badly. Now i know that the greeks wore shin guards but as far as i can tell from the models the barbarians dont seem to wear them. Therefore coming up against a celtic chariot when the only protection you have is your sheild should be very painfull. So therefore i think their attack should be raised a lot cos they did cause a lot of casualties (or at least if you cant walk thats not really going to bee too usefull while in a battle). Although most of their attacks would be damaging to the sides (where the scythes are) is this possible to code?

[Trithemius]

Historically (well the scythed ones at least) didnt they cut mens legs off or at least wond them badly. Now i know that the greeks wore shin guards but as far as i can tell from the models the barbarians dont seem to wear them. Therefore coming up against a celtic chariot when the only protection you have is your sheild should be very painfull. So therefore i think their attack should be raised a lot cos they did cause a lot of casualties (or at least if you cant walk thats not really going to bee too usefull while in a battle). Although most of their attacks would be damaging to the sides (where the scythes are) is this possible to code?

Were Celtic chariots scythed? :/

[Darkarbiter]

not sure but i know the selecud ones were and they are just as bad

[Trithemius]

not sure but i know the selecud ones were and they are just as bad

Thanks for playing!

[Orb]

Soibean, I think that chariots were essentially useless in towns. I'm not an expert, but I can't see any way that a chariot would fight in a siege effectively.

[Trithemius]

Soibean, I think that chariots were essentially useless in towns. I'm not an expert, but I can't see any way that a chariot would fight in a siege effectively.

I have used them to interdict enemy sallying parties in the same way that you would use cavalry, but given the fragility of Casse chariots I have been extremely unwilling to have them race around towns. I sometimes wheel them up behind my mobs of infantry in order to bolster their morale, but this is strictly a non-combat support role.

[Fondor_Yards]

Were Celtic chariots scythed? :/

As far as I know, no. I remeber one member saying celtic chariots normaly did not have blades on the side, but a few midland Britian ones did. Don't quote me on that.

Edit: Well if you look at the SS, their chariot's don't have them. So I'm going to say no they won't have scythes on them.

[Trithemius]

As far as I know, no. I remeber one member saying celtic chariots normaly did not have blades on the side, but a few midland Britian ones did. Don't quote me on that.

Edit: Well if you look at the SS, their chariot's don't have them. So I'm going to say no they won't have scythes on them.

Yeah, sorry about that; I was being sardonic at Darkarbiter. Thanks for your research on the matter though. :)

[QwertyMIDX]

Maybe Qwerty can post some provisional Casse chariot stats? It seems sad that Trithemius cans his campaign, when he easily could edit the a txt file and get something workable.

If you really want I can whip something up, but because they lack javs right now the stats will be pretty off-base.

[Mithradates]

I cant remember but i always had a bug with chariots im not sure if its in EB or not, but whenever u retrained them instead of 2 men chariots u got 3 men ones and lost the additional chariot in effect weakening them further.

[fallen851]

If you really want I can whip something up, but because they lack javs right now the stats will be pretty off-base.

I am assuming you check balancing in autocalc as well, how do they fair in autocalc? If I remember right, chariots were very powerful in autocalc, but terrible in battles...

[QwertyMIDX]

When I actually do stats that aren't temporary I do. I do lean towards making the correct in battle even if it throws off auto-calc a bit though.

[Corinthian Hoplite]

Historically (well the scythed ones at least) didnt they cut mens legs off or at least wond them badly. Now i know that the greeks wore shin guards but as far as i can tell from the models the barbarians dont seem to wear them. Therefore coming up against a celtic chariot when the only protection you have is your sheild should be very painfull. So therefore i think their attack should be raised a lot cos they did cause a lot of casualties (or at least if you cant walk thats not really going to bee too usefull while in a battle). Although most of their attacks would be damaging to the sides (where the scythes are) is this possible to code?
You got the point, scythed chariots weren't powerful beacause of their crews but because of the blades that sliced the enemies-in rome that only happens when fighting cavalry, why? Infantrymen have legs too...don't they?-People may say that they have shields, yeah, they have, but that shouldn't make them invulnerable against the scythes, or instead: "they can dodge", ok, try to dodge a rolling blade coming against you at horse speed while you're stuck in a formation with your buddies and then tell me if you can dodge that. The problem is that even if you change their attack and charge to the max (63) and give them armour piercing ability they remain useless against infantry. So, unfortunately it's a game and not unit stats problem.

Any comments?

[Trithemius]

Any comments?

Casse chariots are not "expendables" like Scythed Chariots. My understanding is that Scythed Chariots are supposed to be used to disrupt enemy formations so that your ordered lines can crash into the enemies disordered lines.

[Simmons]

Any comments?Also there are several example's of armies forming "lanes" in both Greek and Roman warfare so getting out of the way is possible it just takes a high level of discipline unfortunately RTW does not model this.

[fallen851]

When I actually do stats that aren't temporary I do. I do lean towards making the correct in battle even if it throws off auto-calc a bit though.

What about my original question so how are the chariots in autocalc now?

[QwertyMIDX]

I didn't do anything to the chariot stats in .74, whatever they're stated as is left over from the person doing stats before me.

[Corinthian Hoplite]

Casse chariots are not "expendables" like Scythed Chariots. My understanding is that Scythed Chariots are supposed to be used to disrupt enemy formations so that your ordered lines can crash into the enemies disordered lines.
I've never understood why in rome tw that doesen't make a lot of difference-units don't even get demoralised by being charged when disordered (they should get at least "shaken")


Also there are several example's of armies forming "lanes" in both Greek and Roman warfare so getting out of the way is possible it just takes a high level of discipline unfortunately RTW does not model this.
What are lanes?
If you're referring to separated lines with one or two men wide then why couldn't the chariots just turn and slice the lines though?

Thanks for answering my pm Fallen :)