View Full Version : And so Venice is no more an Island?
PROMETHEUS
10-13-2006, 10:03
I am fairly Disappointed by this .... Really disappointed Venice is just another continental city as many others wich is totally historically wrong....
http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/article/738/738809/medieval-ii-total-war-20061012065924292.jpg
Bob the Insane
10-13-2006, 10:10
Well, it is not entirely ordinary as it can only be approached by that bridge which should make defending it a snap.
Can you use a seaborne invasion to go directly into battle or do you need to land first? If you need to land that means no seaborne attacks and only one approach route that is easily defended plus a max of one enemy stake in any siege...
Not historical certainly, but it is not an averagely located settlement in the game either...
PROMETHEUS
10-13-2006, 10:39
Here is a Geographical Satellite map of the location , as you can see the place where Venice is put is wrong , plus the Po river is much down not goes with Venice , Venice is an Island and not a part of the Po Delta....
you just need to make Venice island two squared one free one with city , u place the port on the mainland may be or a close siland this will allow naval invasions but not bridge battles wich are unhistorical....
https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1112/1ps7.jpg
Wandarah
10-13-2006, 10:39
Venice is an Island in the game, what the? It does have a bridge however.
It would be slightly annoying playing as Venice if you had to shuttle everything over on a boat or something, wouldnt it?
Still, one easily defendable approach is a massive advantage.
And why are people still surprised that the game isnt totally historically accurate?
Prince of the Poodles
10-13-2006, 10:45
From what I can see, it is not a continental city at all... :inquisitive:
Anyway, arent there far more important things to worry about?
I would be much more concerned as to whether the AI will properly man and defend Venice in a siege situation rather than if it is perfectly positioned on the map.
If I slog my way through the Venetian holdings and beat them back to their home city, only to engage in an "Epic Siege" against a unit of archers and a general, Venice being an exact replica of the real city wont make it any less disappointing. :shrug:
The community should get together and make a bitch list of all the problems and various issues that people bring up, and prioritize them! I definitely wouldnt want the developers spending any last minutes they have to work on the finished product worrying about whether Venice is perfectly positioned on the map! (although i doubt they are)
Bob the Insane
10-13-2006, 10:47
It would be slightly annoying playing as Venice if you had to shuttle everything over on a boat or something, wouldnt it?
Personally I do not think it would be annoying... :2thumbsup:
But I do wonder if the AI could cope with the city setup like that...
Wandarah
10-13-2006, 10:54
You dont?! Hell man, I'm taking you out one night. You'd be great with the ladies I reckon.
Wandy - 'Sup ho!'
Lady - '*slap*'
Wandy - 'Hey dont do that in front of my brother'
Lady - 'Whos he?'
Wandy - 'That dude over there, picking the toothpick up, putting it down again and drooling'
Lady - 'Aw, you're so nice taking him out like this! Let me get you a drink'
Wandy - 'Hoo hah!'
Bob the Insane
10-13-2006, 11:05
Wandarah - dude, you are on a forum discussing a game based on medieval warefare and empire building... Deny it all you like but deep down you know your as big a geek as the rest of us... :2thumbsup: :laugh4: :laugh4:
MTW had an answer for such islands as venice that are so very close to the mainland as to make using fleets rather unecessary and tiresome. It was basically called the 'landbridge', and was just a link between the island and the land. Due to the design of the RTW map this sort of abstraction won't really work, so to get around this it appears that the developer have compromised by keeping it on land but surrouding it with a river. Not historically accurate, but unless fleets are used there would be no other alternative.
Bob the Insane
10-13-2006, 11:29
It was basically called the 'landbridge',
You do know that M2TW will feature land bridges don't you?
And for to OP's issue I do not thing a landbridge would be any different to the actual bridge they have here. I beleive the whole point is that from a historical perspective the city itself should be practically immune to land based attack...
Well in the earlier screenshots Venice was on a bigger island connected with a landbridge.
However that version of Venice would have been easy to capture.
This version is so much harder.
Wandarah
10-13-2006, 11:50
Wandarah - dude, you are on a forum discussing a game based on medieval warefare and empire building... Deny it all you like but deep down you know your as big a geek as the rest of us... :2thumbsup: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Hey, once I saw a girl. She didnt even snort and look away!
PROMETHEUS
10-13-2006, 12:08
I think the previous would have been better .... I think CA decided to make it on land becouse in their opinions "Hey conquering with a battlebridge Venice is COOL"..... then no more the Island as should be ....
https://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6241/1ef6.jpg
Prom, that earlier pic would have made a siege of Venice be a city in the middle of a big island = more inland than a bridge battle city.
Sounds much harder to capture this way.
You do know that M2TW will feature land bridges don't you?
I wasn't aware. If this is the case then venice should deifnitely be an island connected via a landbridge or a real island.
And for to OP's issue I do not thing a landbridge would be any different to the actual bridge they have here.
A landbridge constitutes a sea borne invasion without needing ships. The river is not the same, as this will involve a bridge battle.
I beleive the whole point is that from a historical perspective the city itself should be practically immune to land based attack...
A good point and I'm inclined to agree.
King Henry V
10-13-2006, 15:45
Historically, the only way Venice could have been captured was by blockading it (there were no city walls and the islands were heavily built on with no way anyone could land their soliders) and thus starving it into submission, which is what the Genoese tried to do in the 13th century. Therefore, any interesting feature would be to make the building of city walls in Venice impossible, have the city stand on only one square of land (like those cities in Civilization which could only be taken with Marines and such) and thus have Venice fall after blockading for x turns.
Transforming Venice into a part of the mainland as opposed to making it a tiny island makes perfect sense when you consider how the AI might deal with it. As I recall RTW's AI was never particularly bright when it came to amphibious invasions so whether this has been improved in MTW2 or not CA probably thought it best to help level the playing field a bit by making Venice somewhat of an easier target for enemy nations.
Furthermore now that Venice is part of the mainland the AI controlling that faction might be more inclined to behave more sensibly. If Venice itself comes under siege a Venetian army in the area would have a much easier time marching back home to assist as opposed to having to rely on a dodgy naval AI which might place a friendly fleet well out of range and unable to carry out the necessary transport mission.
PROMETHEUS
10-13-2006, 16:20
Transforming Venice into a part of the mainland as opposed to making it a tiny island makes perfect sense when you consider how the AI might deal with it. As I recall RTW's AI was never particularly bright when it came to amphibious invasions so whether this has been improved in MTW2 or not CA probably thought it best to help level the playing field a bit by making Venice somewhat of an easier target for enemy nations.
Furthermore now that Venice is part of the mainland the AI controlling that faction might be more inclined to behave more sensibly. If Venice itself comes under siege a Venetian army in the area would have a much easier time marching back home to assist as opposed to having to rely on a dodgy naval AI which might place a friendly fleet well out of range and unable to carry out the necessary transport mission.
= total upversion of what Venice in History ..... a Naval power protended toward the sea and colonies overseas instead on mainland ...
= total upversion of what Venice in History ..... a Naval power protended toward the sea and colonies overseas instead on mainland ...
I completely agree but we must be practical about this. I am willing to bet CA must have seen something during their early testing sessions which brought about the change. Remember how miserably Carthage and the Britons managed their overseas provinces in RTW? Mods such as Rome Total Realism were forced to compensate for the AI's incompetency by creating numerous land bridges to help level the playing field. This lesson was not lost on CA as they have incorporated numerous land bridges into MTW2 (many of which mirror those in the RTR mod).
Placing Venice on an island would clearly put the AI in a tizzy. Placing a land bridge linking the mainland to Venice's tiny island would not offer any defensive advantages to the defenders. The simplest solution is to place Venice on the mainland, surround it with rivers and offer only a single bridgehead for access. Who knows? In addition to the usual obstacles that confront any attacking army on a bridge crossing battle the terrain on that particular river tile might be particularly hazardous to armies attacking from the west.
Anyway this certainly doesn't make me feel very optimistic about the strategic AI.
King Henry V
10-13-2006, 18:12
Transforming Venice into a part of the mainland as opposed to making it a tiny island makes perfect sense when you consider how the AI might deal with it. As I recall RTW's AI was never particularly bright when it came to amphibious invasions so whether this has been improved in MTW2 or not CA probably thought it best to help level the playing field a bit by making Venice somewhat of an easier target for enemy nations.
Furthermore now that Venice is part of the mainland the AI controlling that faction might be more inclined to behave more sensibly. If Venice itself comes under siege a Venetian army in the area would have a much easier time marching back home to assist as opposed to having to rely on a dodgy naval AI which might place a friendly fleet well out of range and unable to carry out the necessary transport mission.
Of course this would be a feature only a perfect world where the Artificial Intelligence was actually intelligent. I completely agree that until we have reached that level of technology, all allowances must be made for an idiotic AI in games.
Sun of Chersonesos
10-13-2006, 18:16
From what I can see, it is not a continental city at all... :inquisitive:
Anyway, arent there far more important things to worry about?
I would be much more concerned as to whether the AI will properly man and defend Venice in a siege situation rather than if it is perfectly positioned on the map.
If I slog my way through the Venetian holdings and beat them back to their home city, only to engage in an "Epic Siege" against a unit of archers and a general, Venice being an exact replica of the real city wont make it any less disappointing. :shrug:
The community should get together and make a bitch list of all the problems and various issues that people bring up, and prioritize them! I definitely wouldnt want the developers spending any last minutes they have to work on the finished product worrying about whether Venice is perfectly positioned on the map! (although i doubt they are)
I agree completely, whats the matter with you people! worrying wether venice is historically accurate and wether it is positioned perfectly. Even if venice didn't have a bridge i wouldn't be really disappointed. Venice is one city out of god knows how many are on the whole campaign map
Also, do you know that a person from the CA could be watching this but not posting. That person will think that they need to tell everyone in the CA to review the positionning on venice. They dont have long left to finish this game we dont want to bring up un-necessary issues which tamper in the areas of developement that are more crucial to the game
Sun
Guillaume le Batard
10-13-2006, 19:02
I agree completely, whats the matter with you people! worrying wether venice is historically accurate and wether it is positioned perfectly. Even if venice didn't have a bridge i wouldn't be really disappointed. Venice is one city out of god knows how many are on the whole campaign map
Also, do you know that a person from the CA could be watching this but not posting. That person will think that they need to tell everyone in the CA to review the positionning on venice. They dont have long left to finish this game we dont want to bring up un-necessary issues which tamper in the areas of developement that are more crucial to the game
Sun
Chersonesos, this thread is addressing a lot more than whether the positioning of Venice is historically accurate. People are also discussing the issue landbridge v. open water as it impacts the AI's ability to maneuvre on the map, and therefore, gameplay in general.
If the people at CA considered every debate, whinge, and discussion on these forums seriously, they would probably have gone mad by now. Seriously! I'm fairly confident that our discussion is not going to de-rail the games release at this point. :dizzy2:
Guillaume
screwtype
10-13-2006, 19:05
Really disappointed Venice is just another continental city
Actually, it isn't. These days it's also a CPU - in fact I've got one sitting right here in my PC! ~D
A couple of things I'd like to point out about this newer pic compared to the earlier 2 square island, re-iterating my earlier post but adding what I just noticed:
1: The earlier pic shows venice on a 2 square island, the siege for this in RTW engine would be a city in the middle of a big island with sea only off map so it might as well be in the middle of the land.
If this works the way I think it does, an assault could only be done from over the bridge and would start with a bridge crossing with the far end defended by the city walls!
ie almost impossible to achieve without serious artillery superiority and I expect very very hard even then if the AI knows how to handle free militia garrison properly.
Its worth noting that RTR tried to do something similar for Tyre but with a land bridge in their version 6 but it caused a CTD so they had to revert to an inland Tyre.
ie net effect is that Venice becomes an almost unassailable island as it should be. If it were a 2 square island it would be easy pickings.
2: The older pic shows an RTW style seperate port for the province but the new pic shows no sign of a seperate port (vs. Bologna that does have a seperate port) which leads me to believe that coastal cities can now have the port function as part of the city itself! This is a very good thing :2thumbsup:
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