View Full Version : What happened to spears?
Sheogorath
11-13-2006, 17:29
It seems like spearmen have become nearly useless. They have almost no effect on cavalry except a very slightly higher kill rate. Of course, that doesnt matter because the cavalry will usually kill/route ALL of them, making them near-useless for classical tasks for spearmen, EX: Lining up in front of a gate and not letting those dirty smelly (nationality) through.
In this game it seems like anything which attacks spearmen, even braced spearmen in defence mode, gets a huge advantage.
I miss the days when I could rely on a single unit of Triarii and two Hastati to hold back (literaly!) an entire Carthagenian army. I tried that once in this game and my poor spears lasted about thirty seconds. Or the even older days (sort of :P) when a single unit of spearmen held back a vast Papal army at the gates of Rome.
So, anybody have advice on defending towns? My strategy has always been a defensive-type unit across the streets and, in general, it worked quite well. Now it seems that Ill get steamrolled if I dont do something different. The question is, what? Previously the defender always had an advantage in their chokepoint control, now it seems that particular ability has vanished, and leaving garrisons in all my towns and cities large enough to defeat an attacking army on the field would quickly bog down my production, no?
To defend a town i would recommend Dismounted Knights veterans. They have high stats and can last long enough for reinforcements to arrive from any other part of the city.
Horatius
11-13-2006, 17:53
Did you try using the walls or ambushes?
What I do when not using the walls is ambush.
I have a weak and usually weak unit like spearmen stay a bit behind an intersection and when they get attacked I have my much stronger units attack the flanks of the attackers.
I tend to do that ambush more often then not so far because the lag makes defence of the wall take eternity to do, if they fix the lag with a patch though I will just defend the walls.
I have noticed a similar thing in my campaign, but I do not think it has anything to do with spears. The only spear units I have access to (playing as England, about 70 turns in) are poor quality spear militia and levy spears. These guys have pretty low stats and I suspect that is why they are being destroyed. I have had some rather unpleasant encounters with Flemish Pikes and some Scottish pike-ish unit whose name I cannot recall. In comparison, I picked up some Crusader Sergeants along the road to Antioch and they are extremely good, with a high defense rating. Unfortunately I cannot recruit them normally.
Yes, there may be a SP balance issue with spears - at least for the English. (Maybe some other factions have decent well armoured spears?) Looking at the stats, it is hard to see why you would not just go with armoured swordsmen or dismounted feudal knights. They cost only fractionally less in upkeep (the purchase cost is much higher, but that is less important apart from in MP). And while they don't have spears, their much higher defence probably means they probably can cope with cav more or less as well. Plus they can slice through most infantry and are ideal for defending towns.
I guess the English spears are just supposed to represent low grade "fodder" troops that you have to use in the early game and can get free in cities. It would be nice to have some dismounted armoured knights with anti-cav spears/lances, however. I'll swear I saw something like that in one old screenshot. I believe that was mainly how the English used their dismounted knights - as an anti-cav shield for their archers, often with cut down lances as "spears".
One historical tactic that belatedly occurred to me was using the English archer's stakes and then putting swords behind them. Would only work on the defensive though. And would the AI be crazy enough to charge them?
Sheogorath
11-13-2006, 20:18
Didnt some early preview mention that English archers special ability would be setting up stakes? That would be awsome >_>
Well, I killed the Scots prior to their developing any serious military in my English campaign. Italian Spear Militia seem a bit tougher, but they still dont stand a chance against a well organized knight charge, and foot knights cut them into tiny chunks in a matter of seconds.
Ill test some spear units in various battles when I get home, maybe do a report on which ones are good at what :P
AussieGiant
11-13-2006, 20:45
Hi Econ and Sheogorath,
I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.
The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:
Armoured Sergeants:
Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.
and these fella's:
Dismounted English Knights
English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.
As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!
Throumbaris
11-13-2006, 20:58
Hi Econ and Sheogorath,
I can tell you from looking at the unit line ups that the English were always going to be lacking in the spear department. Basically the English spear units are just that...Fodder. You will have to look at other options for this faction.
The only unit that sticks out as really anti cavalry and "spearish" (new work that!!) is:
Armoured Sergeants:
Armoured Sergeants are professional warriors, drawn from the lower classes. They have some skill in combat and are well equipped with long spears, large shields and mail armour. They're very solid defensive units, able to resist attacks from both foot and horse, so long as they are well supported. If necessary they can form a defensive circle.
and these fella's:
Dismounted English Knights
English knights often chose to fight dismounted. With their fearsome poleaxes, they can crush enemy infantry and fend off any horseman.
As far as I can tell they are your advanced anti cav / spear units. Give em a try and let me know!!
Unfortunately england cant recruit Armoured Sergeants or any sergeants at all. As for the dismounted knights, well they basically chop up anything. I have to disagree that the levy spearmen are useless, they are cheap and with full armour upgrade they can take almost anything. I would love to see some sort of good spear unit for the english though.
Even well armoured spearmen are useless.
Made test battle on flat ground between peasant archer unit and Italian milita spearmen unit with max armour upgrade.
Archers killed one third of spearmen shooting directly at them.
This was unlike even in RTW when shooting directly at well armoured infantry wouldn't cause much casualties.
Dr_Who_Regen#4
11-13-2006, 21:35
I think we also need a test of a cavalry unit charging the infantry, not how many an archer unit can take out...
Throumbaris
11-13-2006, 21:41
Yes tests arent real examples of battles in the campaign.
The reason spear men are so poor is because of their low defence stats. There are no heavy spearmen anymore (as in MTW there were Chivalric Sergeants and Order foot soldiers to name a few). The best spear units are the pikemen (most factions dont get these), sergeants are poor as well (Italian spear militia have higher def stats) and armoured sergeants are only marginally better. What is needed is a unit of Heavy spearmen avaliable to all Catholic factions and the Byzantines. Why did they not include any decent spearmen? There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
I think we also need a test of a cavalry unit charging the infantry, not how many an archer unit can take out...
Made test with mailed knights vs Italian militia spear having max armour upgrade.
The ground was flat and spearmens were on defensive stance. On the direct charge knights swept through the spearmen line leaving only 8 to run away. Must say that only 20 knights were alive. Massacre was very fast.
The reason spear men are so poor is because of their low defence stats. There are no heavy spearmen anymore (as in MTW there were Chivalric Sergeants and Order foot soldiers to name a few). The best spear units are the pikemen (most factions dont get these), sergeants are poor as well (Italian spear militia have higher def stats) and armoured sergeants are only marginally better. What is needed is a unit of Heavy spearmen avaliable to all Catholic factions and the Byzantines. Why did they not include any decent spearmen? There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
I don't think that game lacks heavy spearmen. The same Italian milita with max armour upgrade has full mail coat with plate armour details.
Spendius
11-14-2006, 11:38
What would be interesting would be peasant archers vs spearmen on hand to hand: on my campaign battles even that would be difficult for the spearmen...
Otherwise a knights charge againts pikemen in defensive stance.
Maybe I'll give it a shot sometimes
Freedom Onanist
11-14-2006, 11:48
There is also a lack of swordsmen, the only sword foot unit you get until late on are dismounted knights.
Well, you do get armoured swordsmen as England and they are pretty tough.
I've found spearmen fairly useful for soaking up charges, they're cheap, easy to replace (pick em up from citys) and can hold a line long enough for my real army to perform a flank attack.
All in all I use em as I did in MTW and it seems to work fine.
AussieGiant
11-14-2006, 12:22
Unfortunately england cant recruit Armoured Sergeants or any sergeants at all. As for the dismounted knights, well they basically chop up anything. I have to disagree that the levy spearmen are useless, they are cheap and with full armour upgrade they can take almost anything. I would love to see some sort of good spear unit for the english though.
Hi Throumbaris,
Why can't you recruit Armoured Sergents? They are in the unit list for the English. Are you sure?
I also agree with you about the flexibility of the weaopn and armour options. These maybe the solution.
Please keep in mind though that the English were not really a spear oriented army. It's just a weakness of the faction I suggest.
I don't think the English get armoured spears in the campaign.
BTW, regarding my early comment on swords vs knights. I was besieging a castle last night and a defending unit of French knights (a general's unit with 2 HP) sallied out to charge my swordsmen pushing a siege tower. It was ugly but I am not convinced my spears would have done significantly better. It's a kind of mutual assured destruction. I guess the English just have to accept this kind of attrition.
AussieGiant
11-14-2006, 12:32
"I don't think the English get armoured spears in the campaign."
Really!!?? They are listed in the English unit section. Is this a mistake by IGN econ?
I vaguely recall someone saying armoured spears were available to the English in MP.
What i deslike more about these "new spear" units is that they dont act like spearmans! Im talking about units like Pikemans, not the spearmans using small sticks and a shield. They seen to like more of their second weapon: swords.
For example, do you see they marching like those old phalanx keeping their spears down? NO! They raise their pikes even when they march.
Sometimes i feel like their pikes are just for show...
Forgive me if im wrong, cuz my game didnt arriived yet and till now im just playing the demo over and over again.
AussieGiant
11-14-2006, 12:41
The English unit is called "Armoured Sargents".
There is no mention of spears in their title but their discription reveals that they are armed with spears.
That is the unit I'm talking about.
Another question econ...I assume you have used Dismounted English Knights. Did they have polearms?? By the way econ...I'm asking enough questions of you to wonder if I am becoming annoying. Let me know if I am, and I'll ease up.
I looked at the building browers last night, and I think for the English there's no armoured sergeant - the "ultimate" English non-knightly infantry unit I think you can recruit in the campaign is the armoured billman. I suspect the IGN faction list was for MP, not SP.
I have not got dismounted English knights, but from the building browser, they do have polearms yes.
For example, do you see they marching like those old phalanx keeping their spears down? NO! They raise their pikes even when they march.
That's accurate, the phalanx formation was incredibly overpwoered because it meant units were basically invincivble from the fornt, even when moving.
I think the main problem wasn't the invicivibility from the front it was the mobility, Phalanxes could spin on a dime with spears down in RTW. Nothing like charging into the rear of a phalanx only to have it spin round (spears going through bodys) and slaughter your unit.
I miss the days when I could rely on a single unit of Triarii and two Hastati to hold back (literaly!) an entire Carthagenian army. I tried that once in this game and my poor spears lasted about thirty seconds. Or the even older days (sort of :P) when a single unit of spearmen held back a vast Papal army at the gates of Rome.
Welcome to Medieval buddy ~;) . That's why many of us oldies hated Rome. Although the spears have been downgraded too far. Needs to be a more moderate value.
AussieGiant
11-14-2006, 13:26
I looked at the building browers last night, and I think for the English there's no armoured sergeant - the "ultimate" English non-knightly infantry unit I think you can recruit in the campaign is the armoured billman. I suspect the IGN faction list was for MP, not SP.
I have not got dismounted English knights, but from the building browser, they do have polearms yes.
Well b****er me with a pitch fork!! My main fighting unit has just been taken away!! They were giong to be my backbone unit against all those French horsies on the continent!!!
Good to hear about the polearms on the Dismounted English Knights Econ.
It looks like the those Heavy Billmen need to be upgrade to the eye balls for the mid to late game!!
Billmen are disapointing so far.
Billmen remind me of town militia in MTW. Good attack, especially against armour, but poor defence and no anti-cav property. Good for charging into the flanks or rear of already engaged enemies.
AussieGiant
11-14-2006, 14:13
Are we talking heavy billman here econ?
Have they lost their anti cavalry bonuses?
No but there defense, even with armour isn't high enough. If they don't break the unit in the charge they get mopped up.
Milita Billmen are useless as Fudal Footknights can do the same thing but have way more utility. Hell Levy spearmen seem just as useful at flank charging cav, but at least they can absorb a charge.
chunkynut
11-14-2006, 14:47
There are no Armoured Sargents in the english grand campaign but the billmen are the 'more' effective anti-cav unit over the levy/militia spears. However with no shield they suffer on the defense score which is why an armour upgrade is necessary or you'll suffer large attrition rates.
And yes longbowmen have wooden stacks but are only deployable in the deployment stage as their special ability (when the battle starts its fire arrows). I'd recommend putting longbows to the front, deploying the stakes , start the battle then push the spears/dis knights behind the stakes and pull the longbows behind the foot soldiers. BE VERY CAREFUL CHARGING CAVALRY THROUGH THE STAKES IN ANY DIRECTION - MASSIVE CASUALTIES!!
Big King Sanctaphrax
11-14-2006, 14:55
I do find it disapointing that Bill units don't have an anti-cav bonus. They used to absolutely slaughter stationary cavalry in MTW, which seemed correct to me, but they just aren't as lethal in the sequel. I feel the English have gotten a short shrift in this game somewhat, as Billmen aren't especially good, their cavalry is poor compared to the French, they get no real late period infantry, and Dismounted English Knights are very expensive. To add insult to injury, the best ranged unit is actually Scots Guard.
Regarding Dismounted English Knights, they have polearms, but are NOT designed to receive cavalry charges. They have a very high attack rating and armor piercing, but only medium armor (less than other Dismounted Knights) and they do not wield their polearms like spears. A unit of Dismounted English Knights on the unpleasant end of a cavalry charge will fare worse than their more primitive Knightly peers or other spear units. Dismounted English Knights are meant to massacre heavy infantry and cavalry that have already been pinned by other units.
The English do indeed have a problem taking an initial cavalry charge. The problem seems to be that they have very few units with a high defence value, and one of those (armoured swordsmen) seem to get mauled against cavalry anyway. Foot knights seem to be the way forward, but even they will take a fair few casualties.
On the plus note, you can funnel an enemy wherever you want using the longbowmen's stakes. The AI pointblank refuses to go near them in a head-on charge, with any unit, so you can force them to engage your infantry where you want. The longbowmen you get later are also fairly effective melee infantry if need be too.
nameless
11-14-2006, 17:40
Is it a mistake that the Armoured Sargeants are only available to the English in the MP?
The English infantry are good for offensive capabilities but in the initial and defensive stage they fare rather poorly. You may have to use fodder to hold off the initial cavalry charge before charging the heavy infantry in.
AussieGiant
11-14-2006, 17:41
Thanks for all the imput guy's.
Seems disappointing. I wuold have thought Billman would be quite good as a unique unit for the english.
It sounds like they are support troops at best for the better knight units and are best used as flankers.
I would have thought with this description they would be as advertised:
"The pinnacle of English commoner infantry, The Heavy Billman is equally comfortable in attack and defense. Wielding the billhook allows Heavy Billmen to hack, stab and chop if needed and being encased in anything from half to three quarter plate armour means they can shrug off considerable damage."
Maybe game balancing patching will happen.
Mechstra
11-14-2006, 19:03
I actually find that England's levy spearmen prove a good addition to any army. They take fairly heavy casualties, sure, but they can withstand a cavalry charge, unlike armoured swordsmen, dismounted knights or heavy billmen, and are very easily retrained. With heavy mail or the like, they're able to withstand a decent amount of punishment, and they make good wall defenders, even against dismounted knights.
Tell me they haven't nerfed Billmen from MTW?! They were what made the English good, apart from LB'S! Gah.
Mechstra
11-14-2006, 19:12
Billmen slaughter already-engaged troops, as they have a very high attack. They just have pitiful defence, so they can't be used as line troops. Levy spearmen suffice for that.
AussieGiant
11-14-2006, 21:28
So they are a flanking unit made for shock not staying power.
Kind of goes against the whole "Half to 3/4 Plate and can with stand some punishment" line!!
Mechstra
11-14-2006, 21:33
Heavy Billmen are different - they have defence as high as Levy Spearmen from the off, but normal Billmen have only 3 defence, despite high attack. You still don't want to let heavy billmen get charged by cavalry, because they can't stand a charge, but they'll slaughter even the most heavily armed unit at rest.
Sir Robin
11-14-2006, 22:36
Can't you do a quick edit to the unit files so Armored Sergeants (Sp?) are available and Billmen are up to snuff?
Or are those in .pak files in M2TW? Think I heard something about that somewhere.
The historian
11-14-2006, 22:42
I've only started playing for 3 days played with the venetians turn 70 and the italian spearmiltia are pretty decent i mean true if the cav charge well they're mince meat but that does not happen easily i mean the ai rarely charges without my archers firing witch kind of brakes up the charge,what i mean is if you use cavalry right they are wonderful but that is more or less ideal conditions i mean i charged some 184 norman footknights with 3 units of cavalry militai (96 men)witch i would say is medium- heavy cav since i charged on a flat portion no rocks no trees no breakup of formation i killed 120 in 2 sec lost 1 cav and the rest ran
Another charge with 228 feudal knights versus norman foot knights((aprox.340) up the hill and through a forest result my feudal knights lose 50% fight on and then retreat in disorder they lose 20% so it's all in the charge versus spearmen as well i killed countless cav from bodyguards to feudal knights with my italian militia mostly by not letting em charge since the ai does it well so charge the cav with your spearmen and they are preety done.
I realiza some people might be frustarated ythat the ai sis slightly better and the game in battles harder but i think it's better and more realisitic.
Darkmoor_Dragon
11-14-2006, 22:57
For the GC/SP (h/vh settings)
I find the English levy spearmen VERY effective at holding off cavalry - useless against most foot, but perfectly adequate against cavalry (so long as you deploy them in depth).
I use them for meeting cavalry charges in many situations (unless i have defensive positioned longbow spikes). The Schiltron also works wonders at each end of a longbow line and a schiltron inside a gate, with spears either side for support stops mounted troops dead.
All the english billmen except the heavies have pitiful defence values due to them having no armour. I suspect the intent, which works, is that they are NOT to be cavalry stoppers, Stop the Cavalry with deep spears and then rip-em apart with billmen from the flanks.
Billmen simply cannot stand up in a slug-fest nor have any chance of stopping a charge themselves.
Same "ambush/flanking" system inside towns, DONT use them on the walls, they're as bad as peasants (indeed they have the same defensive stats as thats really what they are - peasant with billhooks)
I suspect that there is deliberate intent on CA's part to keep them factionally weak in that area (the English) as the new longbow squads are so brutal and without really top flight spear units your best fighting option is always to try to lure the enemy onto the longbow spikes... which is somewhat historical and a very nice methodology for the english faction (imo). (Spikes are always better than spear units and it seems the AI knows this!)
I've seen on other forums people suggesting that the defensive stats on the billmen are a bug - I'm not convinced by that as indicated above: English spears are, at best and when used cautiously, efficient for the price.
Overall though (for the English) their effectiveness against horse mounted troops is much lower than RTW units and you have to adjust plans accordingly - you cant really "rely" on them to hold critical positions (against cavalry) unless they have support and most any medium to heavy foot unit will chew them up without too much concern.
The key though - DEEP formation, if the (working for the AI) cavalry charge bonus causes the horse to break to the rear of the spear unit a rout is almost instantaneous: if the formation is deep enough to withstand the initial charge then the remaining spearmen can actually chew the horsie-boys up rather well.
So lines of spearmen 4 deep? Forget it; narrow front, 8 deep (or use schiltron if the situation allows it: the AI seems to avoid schiltrons)
how do you use the stakes? i always put my anticavalry and longbowmen together but my longbowman barely used on taking over cities.
Stakes are used on the defense mostly or at least in a field battle. I dont even moter setting them up for sieges.
While i agree that the billmen defense/survival rate is pitful and they are useless to defend walls, i seriosuly disagree that English are hampered with lack of cavalry stopping power.
Levy or milita spearmen setup en masse can counter cavalry pretty good and if you need a stronger defensive spears, hire some merc spearmen units which are plentful in france. They are a bit tougher than levy spearmen and can survive charges better. Also crusader sergeants could be used as heavy spear units.
Personally i think supported levies are good enough to keep infantry occupied and stop cav charges while bill men charge them from the flank.
Daveybaby
11-15-2006, 11:21
Billmen arent a defensive unit - theyre an attacking one. They were in MTW1 as well, but they had very good defense back then as well, and so they were, IMHO, a bit too uber. So i'm kinda glad their defensive ability has been nerfed in M2. Theyre back to what they should be - a cheap and effective attacking unit - the english equivalent to all of those norse axemen.
Havent used the armoured billmen yet though... will have to see what they can do.
Longbowmen's stakes in the ground are a great addition to the game - they provide amazingly good protection against cav charges - total and utter slaughter. But there is a significant risk when using them, they provide no additional defense against footsoldiers that i have noticed, and they stop you from being able to mount a cav charge of your own at the back of the footsoldiers that are attacking you. An interesting dilemma. Great stuff!
You have to be VERY careful who you tell your cav to attack if you've planted stakes. If the targetted unit goes anywhere near those stakes when youre not looking the next thing you know your 40 heavy knights are down to 4 or 5 men. Ouch! In fact, this is the only way i know how effective those stakes are - the AI cavalry (wisely) avoids them like the plague, so the only units i've seen killed by them have been my own :beam:
As for english spearmen, i've found them to be pretty effective against cav, as long as theyre facing the right way and are set to guard mode. Obviously theyre not going to stand up to a dismounted knight attack, and why should they? This isnt RTW, thank god.
England aren't Nerfed as Longbows (moreso the higher level ones like yeomans) are very decent H2H units, butchering spear units with ease and holding there own vs footknights.
Oh and they shoot pointy things with great efficency too.
Ludivico Sforza
11-15-2006, 13:10
Pikemen do need to be fixed, they just don't appear to be using their pikes as they should.
Also, is there any good reason why the English can't recruit pikes, other than Flemish mercenaries?
chunkynut
11-15-2006, 17:37
I'm still interested in the Armoured Sargents being in MP and not SP is this the case and is it an error?
Mechstra
11-15-2006, 20:13
I'm still interested in the Armoured Sargents being in MP and not SP is this the case and is it an error?
It is the case, although I don't know why. It doesn't seem to be an error, to be honest.
chunkynut
11-16-2006, 13:05
I used some Flemish Pikemen mercs last night and found them to be very effective against infantry as well.
2 units in very deep (10 - 15) formations next to each other took on a dis knight/generals bodyguard/peasants in front of their castle gate (i was attacking).
Apart from that it was a bloody fantastic battle, they sallied as i started my assualt on the ram and nearly destroyed that unit, only problem was that they used the general (he didn't die then tho). Once I had taken the walls (damn fierce fighting) they retreated to the inner fortress walls (but my cav was already running amok inside the walls so not many made it :) ). Won the day but at quite a loss, mostly infantry (and then mostly mercs :) ).
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