View Full Version : Creative Assembly The plague is insane!
The plague is a disaster in this game, nothing like how it was in RTW. One city got the plague randomly, just as the spanish were invading. To refortify my positions along the border I started moving troops around and two other cities got it. Now I'm receiving losses of nearly 200+ troops per turn and thousands of citizens. The first battle I successfully defended against the Spanish, receiving heavy casualties. Now the spanish troops get the plague after coming in contact with my infected troops and start spreading it on their home front and along the country side.
In a nut shell the plague is everywhere and everyone is dieing. Has anyone else noticed the strong effects of the plague in M2TW vs. previous total war's? :skull:
Napoleon Blownapart
11-26-2006, 19:40
Yeah, the Black Death just hit my Spanish Empire. My treasury still hasn't recovered, as you can't tax dead people.
One of my agents came down with the plague in a Byzantium city. Needless to say, he isn't coming home. It is now turn 100 and that is the only plague I have seen so far.
In reality, the plague wiped out 1/3 of Europes population IIRC. So it should be very bad.....:no:
LegioScythia
11-26-2006, 19:52
Seems that the black plague is a lot more weaker to the east playing as the Turks i only encountered it in Constantinople and some more western Providences the effects are pretty devastating as well i had the plague spread all they way to America (which i conquered) and it almost eliminated all of my population . As the English the blow was so hard half of my family tree died out my priest ,bishops ,merchants ,spies, assassins weren't spared either . And my treasury drained out completely
Midnight
11-26-2006, 19:52
Wow - I've not had a campaign go long enough to get to the Black Death yet. When does it hit? Mid-1300s (which is what in regular turns? Around turn 135?)?
Wow - I've not had a campaign go long enough to get to the Black Death yet. When does it hit? Mid-1300s (which is what in regular turns? Around turn 135?)?
Mine hit around turn 100, but I think its random when it comes.
The Black Death is slightly seperate from the more local plagues. I'd had some minor plague problems with France, but nothing too bad. Then the Black Death event. Try having plague in EVERY SETTLEMENT AT ONCE. See how your economy does after that!
the plague locations and dates are listed in descr_events file.
Forward Observer
11-26-2006, 20:30
Actually the plague has helped me. I was bursting at the seems in all my regions causing rioting in several, putting my finances in shambles.
After a few turns the plague seemed to get my poplulation back under control, so it's wasn't all bad. :skull: The're just virtual peasants anyway--let them eat virtual cake--ha, ha!:whip:
Plague event is awesome. Just another curve ball from God. Gotta love it!
the plague locations and dates are listed in descr_events file.
Is that file random with every campaign?
Stolpmeister
11-26-2006, 22:41
I've had it hit around 135 both times I've played that far... that's year 1350... which is cool, since the real plague hit Europe around 1347. Playing as Spain and holding 40 territories, it killed off 45000 citizens and 1500 soldiers and 10 family members on one turn. That was at its peak, but it was always pretty bad. I also had the experience of gaining money from it, rather than losing, since it gets rid of all that squalor in cities that I had built up as economic powerhouses... no beggars in the streets when you can just take your dead neighbours house and job, I guess.
Thats a good point, but I wonder if there's another way to control squalor other than huge garrisons of troops or the plague? I've found it to be a major problem recently, with cities reaching 20 and 30 thousand citizens I'm having problems keeping them all under wraps. Maybe the plague hit just in time :)
ShadowStriker
11-26-2006, 23:03
I'm so stupid... Thye black death was nearly over and only London was affected, and without thinking clearly, I moved some troops from London to a couple other cities, the Black Death has started again! :oops:
i had the plague in a few random cities, not really hurting much in my english camp, then the black death hit. every single city i controlled, i went from about 30 000 florins a turn to -10 000. really hurt my income alot, i was at about -20 000, florins when it was finally swept from my cities and my incomes returned to normal. great event imo :D
Cheers Knoddy
I'm just reading the section on the black death in "Set in A Silver Sea" by Arthur Bryant. I quote "[The Black Deatb resulted in] a mortality rate higher than that expected today from Nuclear War".
Wow.
Jan Zamoyski
11-27-2006, 00:16
Is it possible to disable black death by editing event_descr file?
ouch well i just got the black death event warning in my byzantium campaign, and heres a screenie from about 2/3 turns latter lol, so hurty.
https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/knoddy/plauge.jpg
https://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/knoddy/plauge2.jpg
just have to hope i dont lose too many family members to it, fingers crossed lol.
Antagonist
11-27-2006, 01:54
I'm at Turn 140 in my longest campaign and I haven't seen it yet, seems like I have something unpleasant in store...
Antagonist
well the plague is finally being swept from my lands, huzzah, i still have a few settlements and family members but nowhere near the large scale of the black death. Total death toll:
approx 115 000 citizens of my many cities and castles.
5 family members which wasnt really a big hit seeing as i have 30 ish, but it did hurt cos several of them were very young promising generals.
to the person asking about editing the events file, i honestly dont know if this would work or not, I dont htink that would be it, cos i think u would still have to remove the trigger, but that said, if the descr file is the trigger to let the game know to do the event it may well work. GL, but imo leave it in, its frustrating but def adds to the immersion.
Cheers Knoddy
Is there anything that can be done to extinguish the plague faster?
Why would you want to edit it out. If its hurting you that much imagine what it does to the ai.
I had the Black Death event in my Russian campaign, about turn 140 or so (can't recall exactly). Had the miserable Yersinia in every one of my settlements, and I lost probably 10,000+ civilians per turn for half a dozen turns. It really squashed my cities. I was just about ready to build some huge stone walls in Kiev, and after the plague I had to wait for many years in order to be able to build them again, I lost so many people. I lost a couple family members, and had troop levels reduced to about half in most of my cities. All in all, it was sweet.
I shoulda screenied it...
In the event of a plague take your named characters out of the settlement at once and keep them separated in the countryside for the next turn. I found that there is a good chance they don't get affected on the first turn. You have to be careful though with the message after the next turn to see who is really affected and who is not.
i thought about that, but it seemed like soo much effort :P i just let it happen and enjoyed it alot even tho it pwnt me hard lol.
discovery1
11-27-2006, 06:16
Any one do some tests with using plague as a weapon? Say the plague breaks out in one of your cities. You have a spy that gets the plague. You send that spy to a rivals town. Said town is then infected. Repeat.
Is this an effective way of spreading the plague or is it just a pipe dream?
Any one do some tests with using plague as a weapon? Say the plague breaks out in one of your cities. You have a spy that gets the plague. You send that spy to a rivals town. Said town is then infected. Repeat.
Is this an effective way of spreading the plague or is it just a pipe dream?
You hit the nail on the head. Exactly what I'm in the process of doing now, sending lowly spys to enemy settlements. How evil I am :thrasher:
quite possible, but only uselful when u have the normal plague, when the black death rolls in, pretty much every settlement gets it, so its not that useful.
Beren Son Of Barahi
11-27-2006, 06:35
i found the best way to ride out the plague is to sack a city just as it hits, then cancel all your buildings, (the black death stops all your trade, thus your money)stop your building (expenditure) and you shouldn't be having -10k-20k turns... the plague is awsome, after the plague starts to wind down, start hitting the computer hard, they loose just of much as you.
The black death doesnt actually come around until pretty late in the game. After gunpowder, after the eyeglasses, after football is banned, after the first public clock. Infact, as time goes on messages come up pointing out how the plague keeps spreading.
If your only losing thousands, chances are your getting a normal plague.
In my English campaign I had only one province that had the black death (I stayed on the upper corner of the map) and I was still losing about 5000 peeps each turn.
And no, it isnt random, it hits certain places at certain times in every campaign.
And no, it isnt random, it hits certain places at certain times in every campaign.
The black death isn't random, regular plague is I think...
Yes, it's every bit as bad as it was in the history and then some. I had carved a large european empire as France, swallowing most of the milanese, Dane and HRE provinces (serves them well for keeping refusing my peace offers), and then managed to buy alliances with most of the remaining christian powers, thereby ushering an unprecedented era of peace and prosperity for christendom. I had built up an mazing economy and was raking in huge amounts from trade accross the mediterranean.
I was setting out on a glorious project to reconquer the holy lands from the Mongols, when all my plans were brought to a screeching halt by the Black Death. All trade ceased practically overnight, my economy went down the drain and then in the red at a frightening rate. I had to disband all armies that did not serve an immediate defensive purpose. Not a single settlement was spared, even the military outposts I had on the mediterranean islands. I reckon I lost almost 50% of my population : at the worst of it I had 60.000 people die in a single turn, and it lasted damn long!
Only 2 of my nobles survived the onslaught, but that's mostly due to a move I did right before it hit. I found most of my young nobles had gone soft from city life (and from having obscene amounts of gold lying in my treasury) and were picking up "crazy" or "corrupt" kind of traits. Probably every single one of my nobles had at least 1 mistress. So I decided "to hell with it" and put them all (13 nobles!) in a cog headed to mongol waters. I just spared my mad king and a couple ex-crusader generals. Also gifted away all my extra gold to the byzantines in an exchange for an alliance few staging posts for my aforementioned "reconquest" project. Black death couldnt have come at a worse time.
I still hurt just thinking about it, and my plans were set back by about 30 turns! ouch! If CA wanted to restitute the apocalyptic / "the end is nigh" feeling of the period, the job is almost too well done.
Also gifted away all my extra gold to the byzantines in an exchange for an alliance few staging posts for my aforementioned "reconquest" project. Black death couldnt have come at a worse time.
Good read, although how in the world did you ever get an AI power to sell regions to you? I sware the AI is hopelessly retarded in this game. I'll offer sh*t tons of money for an alliance and they'll refuse and then the next turn they will come and offer me an alliance for free. Same goes for offering money as a gift, I've had them deny a gift of over 10,000 florines. :inquisitive:
It takes a lot of money for them to sell a province. Try 50,000 to 100,000 florins a province. I've rarely amassed that much money, as by the time I'm making enough income to save up that much, I've got lots of provinces to needing new buildings. However, you can secure alliances and such with a payment thrown in. I managed to convince the Polish to marry their princess (a non-start princess who actually had 3 charm!) to my single faction heir, but it cost me a 6000 florin dowry (wasn't it the father of the BRIDE who paid the dowry?!?) and 500 per turn for 5 turns to secure the deal.
Thats the other thing I have a hard time understanding, merrying Princesses. It seems like every princess I run into has "0" charm rating. I don't think I've ever seen a non-start princess with more than 1 charm rating. Whats the point of merrying her? Besides, my ally factions seem incapable of letting me merry them, it always says "Very Demanding" when I try. Wouldn't it be good to merry your princess to my faction leader?
Concerning buying regions:
I've only every bought one region so far, and that was while I was playing a Venician campaign (fitting that the merchant civ buys their first conquest :laugh4: ). The major pain playing as Venice is that the HRE have Bolgna, splitting your empire in two if you take rebel Florence early on. Then they end up attacking you for sending various troops and generals between Florence and Venice (over their territory). So to remedy it once and for all I purchased the duchy of Bologna for 6000 florins on the first turn - that is 1000 florins per turn for 6 turns. Went down a treat, as I just had to stick a fort in the pass in the alps, and after booting Milan and Sicily off my peninsula, I now have "Fortress Italy", with forts blocking all points of access through the alps :2thumbsup:
Captainrave
11-28-2006, 01:00
In my campaign I have about 50 provinces as England when the black death struck...came at a bad time, being attacked by both the turks and mongols...Its nearly passed, but i think its killed about 300000-400000 people.
In my opinion plagues happen to frequently...usually have at least one province per turn plagued...I guess its because they are at the limit of the number of people they can hold resulting in lots of squalor.
IrishArmenian
11-28-2006, 01:21
In my Russian Campaign, Vilnius got hit by the plague, though most survived. I'm waiting for it to take hold on my Polish enemies, so that I may wait for them to die and as soon as the Plauge is gone, attack. I currently have 3 spies with the plague, running around and spreading it. One for Poland, one for Denmark and one for Hungary.
I currently have 3 spies with the plague, running around and spreading it. One for Poland, one for Denmark and one for Hungary.
I love the idea and currently plan on putting it into action. As I said I have the Spanish attacking me on the western front and relations dropping with the Hungarians in the East. I have a feeling I am going to get back stabbed by another nation before this is all over with, so I don't mind having a couple spys running around spreading the plague as I see fit. The could be the best weapon of all time!!
One question though, does the plague spread to cities just from having your spies running through the country side?
I finally encounter the Black Death. Man it is horrible, I lost 2 kings, a few cardinals and right now -19k in the hole, which means I cant repair or retrain anything.
What really sucks tho is Milan is coming out good as all the cardinal deaths helped them control the Papacy and they are my enemies. I would have had a good chance of winning last election if not for this.
But it does throw a challenge and sproughts rebellions and I am finally coming out of it but its gonna be a few turns before I see black in my treasury which is hurting my diplomatic ties.
Captain Fishpants
12-04-2006, 10:49
The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-Black-Central-Studies/dp/0743430352/sr=1-1/qid=1165225269/ref=sr_1_1/202-6430168-5707824?ie=UTF8&s=books
The plague spreads westwards over the course of several turns, but it also ends very fast (the end might be scripted). Mine lasted an average of 2 turns per settlement, which is around 5-6 turns total. Normal plagues last quite a bit longer. Quarantine all your cities and pray that AI spies don't wander around and spread it to settlements that have already recovered. I lost 30% of my population during that time, but all my characters and armies were in the field and thus spared.
Frankly saying I didnt notice this HORRIBLE BLACK PLAGUE.
No of course I noticed that somehow something bad going on. Generals dying armies melting and stuff. But it didnt ruin any of my war plans or my economy.
Playing on VH/VH.
I think one way to keep the plague from spreading is to keep spies stationed in each settlement. This keeps away enemy agents which reduces the spreading effect they cause.
With the regular plague I often spread it with spies, but the downside is that sometimes it backfires as I get the plague again after I got rid of it by quaranteening my settlements. One big no-no is fighting with AI armies in the area where you took the plague to. I once killed off one of my best generals when I sent him to fight the milanese and got back my own plague... :embarassed:
I have had the black death.
Man it was horrible.
It killed off almost all of my royal family, I had 3 left when the plague was over.
My economy went from a nice 20000/turn to a -50000/turn and it didn't take many turns before my treasury was empty and I was suddenly in debt thus impossible for me to retrain my troops.
After maybe 5 turns the worst part of the plague stopped(still had a few characters infected but the cities and castles were clean) and my economy kicked in again.
Also when the black death comes you get a video of it.
That's how you tell the difference between the regular plague and the real deal.
Guys how do u play?
Plague strikes at 1300++, at that time I have lots of provinces and income more than 100 000 per turn, I didnt really feel the plague.
In my games plague for AI much worse than for me.
My economy doing well, i never go to minus. Ppl dying yes, but its not really a problem. Army duying, but its allow to make more money per turn. Family dying this is bad, but Im making new generals from succesfull captains. Plague is nothing really.
The plague is not that terrible. It hit me in my two campaigns quite exactly in the year 1348 and sent economy downwards but without any real damage. It went away faster than it had come. I did not loose a single province. I was in depth for 5 or 6 turns but maybe AI was too. As HRE at that time I was in war with 4 factions, as Spain (current campaign) with 8 factions (and I wanted a more peacefully economy build-up game as Spain, buhuhuu) but that did not bother.
So I think it's a nice feature. And I got the feeling that after the plague more money comes in (?).
The Black Death is estimated to have caused the death of roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the population of Europe. In the aftermath there was a economical recovery of sorts, with people labour being more valued. There were basically more resources for everyone.
Another interesting side offect was a strong recovery of natural resources, namely flora and fauna, under pressure from the new populous burgs. This effect was so strong that some climate scholars point the reduction of human activity and forest depletion as a cause for a mini-ice age that struck europe the following years.
It took Europe 250 years to reach the population levels pre-epidemics.
Bongaroo
12-04-2006, 15:48
Playing as France: I had what we would consider modern day france and a few German provinces as well as Milan destroyed. My royal family had grown huge, I'm sure I had at least 20 nobles. After 6 turns of the Black Death I had 3 nobles left. It left me in shambles. I was barely able to hold my current provinces let alone mount an attack on anyone. This campaign is getting low on turns till the end and I'm thinking I'm going to have to start rampagining through Europe to get 45 provinces.
Black Death really had me sweating it out each time I hit the end turn button, fearing whose death's would be reported next.
What happened in Asia at the same time? Did any of the large Asian civilizations (China, Japan, India, Persia) face similar extinctions due to the Black Plague?
The Black Death is estimated to have caused the death of roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the population of Europe. In the aftermath there was a economical recovery of sorts, with people labour being more valued. There were basically more resources for everyone.
Another interesting side offect was a strong recovery of natural resources, namely flora and fauna, under pressure from the new populous burgs. This effect was so strong that some climate scholars point the reduction of human activity and forest depletion as a cause for a mini-ice age that struck europe the following years.
It took Europe 250 years to reach the population levels pre-epidemics.
The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-Black-Central-Studies/dp/0743430352/sr=1-1/qid=1165225269/ref=sr_1_1/202-6430168-5707824?ie=UTF8&s=books
Thanks. The reviews look terrible ( I don't give them much value most of the time anyway). I'll check that book out, sounds like a good read to me.
I'd also like to say thank you for this awesome game. It is amazing how far you guys have come since STW. The evolution of the series and the success of your work is stunning.
Congratulations !
What happened in Asia at the same time? Did any of the large Asian civilizations (China, Japan, India, Persia) face similar extinctions due to the Black Plague
EDIT: New map from wiki.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Bubonic_plague_map.PNG
About the Middle East....
Middle Eastern outbreak
The plague struck various countries in the Middle East during the pandemic, leading to serious depopulation and permanent change in both economic and social structures. The disease first entered the region from southern Russia. By autumn 1347, the plague reached Alexandria in Egypt, probably through the port's trade with Constantinople and ports on the Black Sea. During 1348, the disease travelled eastward to Gaza, and north along the eastern coast to cities in Lebanon, Syria and Palestine, including Asqalan, Acre, Jerusalem, Sidon, Damascus, Homs, and Aleppo. In 1348–49, the disease reached Antioch. The city's residents fled to the north, most of them dying during the journey, but the infection had been spread to the people of Asia Minor.
Mecca became infected in 1349. During the same year, records show the city of Mawsil (Mosul) suffered a massive epidemic, and the city of Baghdad experienced a second round of the disease. In 1351, Yemen experienced an outbreak of the plague. This coincided with the return of King Mujahid of Yemen from imprisonment in Cairo. His party may have brought the disease with them from Egypt.
and Asia...
Asian outbreak
The Central Asian scenario agrees with the first reports of outbreaks in China in the early 1330s. The plague struck the Chinese province of Hubei in 1334. During 1353–1354, more widespread disaster occurred. Chinese accounts of this wave of the disease record a spread to eight distinct areas: Hubei, Jiangxi, Shanxi, Hunan, Guangdong, Guangxi, Henan and Suiyuan (a historical Chinese province that now forms part of Hebei and Inner Mongolia), throughout the Mongol and Chinese empires. Historian William McNeill noted that voluminous Chinese records on disease and social disruption survive from this period, but no one has studied these sources in depth.
It is probable that the Mongols and merchant caravans inadvertently brought the plague from central Asia to the Middle East and Europe. The plague was reported in the trading cities of Constantinople and Trebizond in 1347. In that same year, the Genoese possession of Caffa, a great trade emporium on the Crimean peninsula, came under siege by an army of Mongol warriors under the command of Janibeg, backed by Venetian forces. After a protracted siege during which the Mongol army was reportedly withering from the disease, they might have decided to use the infected corpses as a biological weapon. The corpses were catapulted over the city walls, infecting the inhabitants.[3] The Genoese traders fled, transferring the plague via their ships into the south of Europe, from whence it rapidly spread. According to accounts, so many died in Caffa that the survivors had little time to bury them and bodies were stacked like cords of firewood against the city walls.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_death
It seems it reached the Middle East as well, but did it kill off as many as in Europe ?
How is the impact on the Middle East in game ?
And some people say games are not educational....
Darkmoor_Dragon
12-04-2006, 19:06
The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-Black-Central-Studies/dp/0743430352/sr=1-1/qid=1165225269/ref=sr_1_1/202-6430168-5707824?ie=UTF8&s=books
A book that is justifiably panned as being rather crap. (and it is: save your money {unlike me})
How is the impact on the Middle East in game ?
In my Moorish campaign, I took Arguin. Unfortunately it appears to have been suffering from the plague. As soon as I took it, my new governor and the imam with him both immediately contracted the plague and I noticed that the town also had the plague symbol. I didn't get a plague event notice, of course; because it apparently started when the town was still rebel. The next turn after taking the town, I did start getting the plague messages. When the plague finally subsided in the town, it was another turn before the plague left my general and imam. :skull:
The impact of the real Black Death in Europe cannot be underestimated - most of us will never see anything a tenth as bad, even as global warming bites. I suggest that if you're interested in seeing just how awful the plague was, and what the long term effects were, you could do a lot worse than read Norman Cantor's superb book, In the Wake of the Plague: The Black Death and the World It Made. You can find it here, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wake-Plague-Black-Central-Studies/dp/0743430352/sr=1-1/qid=1165225269/ref=sr_1_1/202-6430168-5707824?ie=UTF8&s=books
Bird Flu is very scary. Human mortality rates are around 50 percent. Let us just hope it quietly disappears rather than mutates the capability to spread easily among humans. :skull:
I was rich when the plague hit me. I had to stop production of buildings mostly when it hit me and stopped troop production completely. When the plague hit the western part of my Venetian empire, my eastern holdings were about to recover already. The plague was only 2-3 turns.
The worst part for me was that I was battling the Mongols at the time. The huge stack I had in Iconium had the plague still 4-5 turns after the plague left all my settlements. I had to watch that uberstack (all elite units) dwindle down between the Mongols and the plague. I tried separating the general but the captain got the plague, too. The feeder stack I used to replenish that huge stack all had the plague for that long. I hired mercenaries and they got the plague, too. I had to build completely new stacks to further my conquest.
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