Armour Upgrades Discovery

[JeffBag]

Over in the mod chat forums, nipinghan1984 has posted a semi-complete extract of the export_descr_unit of M2TW, and it seems that there are different values for different levels of armour upgrades. There are also two values of shield.

Taken from that page,
; stat_pri_armour Details of the man's defences
; m tat_armour factor
; m tat_defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)
; m tat_shield factor (only used for attacks from the front of left)
; m tat_sound type when hit = flesh, leather, or metal
; stat_armour_ex Details of the man's defences
; m tat_armour factor. 4 values. First for base value, then 3 upgrade levels
;
; it a
; i
defensive skill factor (not used when shot at)
; m tat_shield factors. First for melee, second for missile fire
;

Example of a unit, Mailed Knights

type
t
Mailed Knights
dictionary
; Mailed_Knights
; Mailed Knights
category
; cavalry
class
; heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy
; crusade_cavalry
soldier

Mailed_Knights, 32, 0, 1
mount

heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes
sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge, knight
formation
2, 4.4, 3, 6, 3, square, wedge
stat_health
1, 0
stat_pri

10, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
;stat_pri_ex
0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec

11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex
0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr
no
stat_pri_armour 5, 5, 4, metal
;stat_armour_ex 5, 7, 0, 0, 5, 4, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat
; 4
stat_ground
0, -2, -4, 0
stat_mental
9, low, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food
t60, 300
stat_cost
; 1, 680, 250, 120, 95, 680, 4, 170
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models Mailed_Knights, Mailed_Knights_ug1
ownership

england, scotland, france, hre, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily, slave, normans
era 0

y,england, scotland, france, hre, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily,
era 1
y,
england, scotland, france, hre, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, sicily,
era 2

ndscotland
;unit_info
10, 0, 14


I believe the Zeroes mean that you cannot upgrade it to second or third level.
After looking at this I did some tests with custom battles; very hard, on grassy plain.

Billmen with no armour upgrade vs Croat Axemen, Billmen with stats of 15-3 and Croat Axemen with stats of 15-7, and Billmen got spanked.

Billmen with 1 armour upgrade vs Croat Axemen, Billmen with supposed stats of 15-4 and Croat Axemen with 15-7, battle ended because Billmen ran, while Croat Axmen were wavering, both commanders dead. End result 75 billmen dead, 75 Croat Axemen dead.

If this really works, and the +1 armour in the stats is just a mistake, then leather tanners will be the best buildings in the game; 600 dollars for a massive +4 padded armour to all your crap units. Yet another example why the stat system in this game doesn't tell anything.

[BigTex]

Bless your heart. Off to mod chat.

I have to understand what is wrong with those darn 2hd axemen.

[Shahed]

That is GREAT ! If this is accurate then the screen is wrong which is GREAT !!! You 100% sure ?
In custom battle it also gives you +4 armor ? You'd have to test it in campaign I'd say.

If correct, you should post in the other thread as well, where there was an armor discussion taking place:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=72958&page=2

[BigTex]

Very good post. It seems that he only has up to the cavalry and ships unpacked though.

Interesting stat though, seems there are heavy, barded, mailed, and armoured mounts for heavy cavalry.

[Derfel von Saljeth]

So, if i understand what are you saying, militia pikemen with 3 armor upgrade actualy wear plate armor even if their stats say they have 3 armor value?
And unarmored troops with 1 upgrade will wear padded armor (4) and not just 1 armor value?

[Derfel von Saljeth]

ok i've understood :) So if JeffBag is right, we should report this as a bug cuz stats pannel don't show the real values of an upgraded unit

[jimmyM]

Do the battlemap graphics of a unit upgrade in-line with armour? couldn't remember if this was in, and so far haven't seen any evidence of it...

[dopp]

Then my suspicions were correct in that armorers are supposed to be giving more than just straight +1 upgrades.

Yes, the graphics are in-line with the armor upgrade. That's what was bugging me, because pikemen with heavy mail (steel breastplates) were listed as having 3 armor.

[Kobal2fr]

Hmmm doesn't a line starting with ; mean it's a commentary, or old code not longer used but kept just in case ?

[Quickening]

Eh could someone explain to me in laymans terms what the deal with the armour is? All of the above may as well be in Atlantean:laugh4:

[dopp]

Hmm then maybe it is broken after all, a new feature that they could not get to work properly. There also seem to be two new lines at the bottom describing the level of amorsmith required for upgrades. And why are the unit costs commented out as well? Is there a separate file for those now?

In fact, a lot of the code looks kind of funny. Many typos. Perhaps it was imperfectly extracted? The code for armor levels is not commented out for Druzhinas, nor is it for Katatanks.

[geala]

Hello, Quickening, this is a selftest for me wether I have understood it. (being a laymen, too).:laugh4:

If you upgrade an armour lets say from nothing to leather (padded cloth would be a better term) the description in the unit panel changes from "armour: 0" to "armour: 1". This is suspected to be buggy because padded armour normally gives +4 armour at least for the units which start with padded armour. So your upgrade should give also +4 to your troops starting with no armour but wearing padded armour after it.

Now it seems that not the real upgrade is buggy but only the description in the unit panel. If you upgrade an unit from no armour = description "armour 0" in the unit panel to padded armour = description "armour 1" in the unit panel your unit received the true "armour +4" bonus as intended. The description in the unit panel still shows "armour 1" instead of "armour: 4" but that then would be a minor bug.

[dopp]

But now it seems that the code was commented out and the game uses the old RTW +1 armor per upgrade level. A crying shame. And perhaps a major bug/balance issue.

[Maizel]

Im pretty sure someone will mod it in soon

[Lusted]

But now it seems that the code was commented out and the game uses the old RTW +1 armor per upgrade level. A crying shame. And perhaps a major bug/balance issue.

We don't know for sure yet until we get the unpacker.

[Derfel von Saljeth]

Maybe someone with a better contact with them should report this . They are still testing the patch, so it should be possible to fix it

[dopp]

I don't know if I would want the patch to be further delayed just to fix one bug that can be modded out easily. But I do hope it gets fixed eventually.

[Ragnor_Lodbrok]

Hmm, I tested a little:
dismounted English knights (armour unupgraded 8) vs. Janissary archers(missile 10) on Lombardia.
The archers killed exactly as much upgraded knights as unupgraded ones.
If I haven't made a terrible mistake, armour upgrades should only give +1 and no different attributes.

[JeffBag]

Dismounted English Knights are already very well armoured, and I think the next armour upgrade is really only +1. The most crucial issue is with those miltia upgrading from nothing to half plate, and the early units upgrading from nothing to padded, which supposedly gives +4. I merely highlighted the fact that CA has coded for the ability for different increases in armour values for different values of armour, wherether it works or not, we probably would not know unless we get some official word about this matter.

By the way, for Dopp, the value for Druzhina and Kataphracts is stated.
Druzhina - 5, 7, 0, 0, 6, 4, 4
Kataphract - 8, 9, 0, 0, 5, 3, 3
First value is base, second is first upgrade, third and fourth is the second and third upgrade respectively, which in both cases are unupgradeable. Fifth value is the defense value, and the last two are shield values, the sixth being melee shield value, and seventh being shield value against missile fire.

[Furious Mental]

This would be good if it is in or can be added.

[dopp]

No, I said the line is not commented out for those two units (it doesn't have ; in front of it).

[Derfel von Saljeth]

Maybe the text have been corrupted in the extraction?

look at the lines
stat_cost
; 1, 680, 250, 120, 95, 680, 4, 170

the ; shouldn't be the either i think...

[BigTex]

Maybe the text have been corrupted in the extraction?

look at the lines
stat_cost
; 1, 680, 250, 120, 95, 680, 4, 170

the ; shouldn't be the either i think...

The extract is a little screwy. Again he mentions that, it's mostly intact for what he has extracted though. The semi colon is probably just a mistake in the extraction, it's there for all lines. The top portion of the text file is were they explain some of the stats.

The armor for the upgrades seems to be in, but the old system only represents the bronzer silver and gold upgrades as only being 1. It would explain some of the strange abilities of massively upgraded militia's.

The shields are interesting, wonder if some of the pavasive crossbowmen are shielded against melee or not. This is good stuff indeed.

Entertaining though they still didn't bother to take the food resource out of the file.

[Shahed]

Hey please can someone in the know, report this ?
It may well be that we can get it fixed before the patch is released. That's easy to mod out so it's easy to fix as well. It should'nt theoretically delay the patch.

Also can anyone be kind enough to pop me a ink for the discussion everyone is referring to, please ?

I did'nt see any difference on the battle map between Turcomen without armor and with padded armor upgrade. I suspect this is true for most of the Muslim troops. It may be the graphical work was never assigned to some units (or factions) or that the work was not complete, if it was assigned. Will report back if I see anything new.

Would be great to hear some offcial comment. Maybe a dev blog post ? *hint* *hint*

Salute !

[dopp]

Entertaining though they still didn't bother to take the food resource out of the file.

The strange part is that the food resource is NOT commented out, but the unit cost and upkeep part is.

[Handel]

So please someone to explain for dummies - is the seventh armor building upgrade good for the general bodyguards only or there are more troops wich will profit from it?

[dopp]

It's the sixth level armorer I think, and it's only good for bodyguards. All other cavalry comes with either partial plate or advanced plate, AFAIK.

[Somebody Else]

So please someone to explain for dummies - is the seventh armor building upgrade good for the general bodyguards only or there are more troops wich will profit from it?

There are some others... merchant cav militia... forlorn hope... can't think of any others off the top of my head.

[econ21]

This thread seems to have refuted its premise and risks meandering off topic. Further discussion should be in Mod Chat or in more focussed new threads.