View Full Version : You Shouldn't Nerf Macedon!
Grand Lord of Poop~
12-12-2006, 09:37
Well, from many of the pictures in the faction progression thread, it actually seems that the Macedonians are almost always losing or wiped out. But I have heard that you guys are going to nerf them even more in the upcoming versions!?:furious3:
In all my games so far, most factions for about 20 years so, makedon seems have been used to wipe the floor clean of greece. It seems to me that they should be restored to not quite a .74 level, but close to it, since both epirus and KH now seem to be able to expand well on their own. If anyone really needed nerfed, I would say its Seleukia. I think I've seen 2 games with them losing. Usually I seem them controlling large swathes of arabia, pushing across the suez and consuming Baktrian empire lands. I thought they were had to deal with a constant unstable east, along with civil wars and lots of dissent?
They do. After 265BC everything starts to build up when I play them. Parthia starts pumping out loads of cheap spearmen to annoy me in the NE, Baktria begins a full scale assault on the NE and NW, while Pontos and Haysydan start to gather their armies on the border for a huge attack.
Geoffrey S
12-12-2006, 13:12
At the time Macedon should be weak, they had just endured a rather crushing set of disasters at the hand of migrating Gauls.
What I'd say does need doing is a strengthening of rebels to the north of the peninsula and a general nerfing of the economics of the peninsula itself. Looking at the maps of expansion it seems that whichever faction dominates in the region, not just the Maks, becomes an unstoppable force heading to the north, which just isn't right.
Empedocles
12-12-2006, 13:15
In my carthage campaign (250bc) the greeks are still defending in mainland greece and have signed a ceasefire three turns ago with Macedonia.
Instead MAcedonia has crushed epiros and pushed it back to a single town near the danubio.
Macedonia has conquered all of Ylliria and are now at war with the romans up there.
I've conquered hispania and have taken tolosa, massilia and the capital of the Averni.
I'm planning to start a punic war against rome with the help of the aeudi.
Regards.
Diego, from Argentina
(I'll post pics when I get home)
Grand Lord of Poop~
12-12-2006, 15:18
yea, but still. even in 0.8 the Macedons are losing most of the time, and you guys are still going to make them weaker!? If you do that, macedon would almost be the weakest faction in the game and wouldn't stand a chance! (Well, of course it's a different story if the human plays it...) I have a suggestion: If you guys are going to make the peninsula factions weaker (as in Epeiros, KH, Maks, etc.) so they don't go uber; why not make all three factions weaker instead of just Macedon?
Krusader
12-12-2006, 15:29
yea, but still. even in 0.8 the Macedons are losing most of the time, and you guys are still going to make them weaker!? If you do that, macedon would almost be the weakest faction in the game and wouldn't stand a chance! (Well, of course it's a different story if the human plays it...) I have a suggestion: If you guys are going to make the peninsula factions weaker (as in Epeiros, KH, Maks, etc.) so they don't go uber; why not make all three factions weaker instead of just Macedon?
And go ahistorical? Atm, we are trying to find a good balance, so Makedonia should have a chance to survive. However in 272 BC, many people were wondering how long till the Antigonid dynasty would die out, as Pyrrhos was the strongest man in Greece at the time. In 272 BC, Antigonid Makedonia was in a crisis.
Zaknafien
12-12-2006, 15:31
Edit: oops, krusader beat me to it.
The long-stated goal of EB is to portray the starting conditions of 272 BCE as accurately as possible, and let the rise and fall of nations begin from there. If the Mak faction members tweak the starting position, it will be to make it more historically accurate, and they definately know what they are doing. I for one am looking forward to see where they go with it, and how the interesting situation of the Macedon King will be portrayed in future versions.
This is slightly off-topic, but do the Getai do anything in your campaigns? In my 2 campaigns they just stand next to their 1 city, and never move :dizzy2:
btw Macs have destroyed KH and Epeiros in my camps and then got into an attrition war with romans who are trying to wipe out entire Gaul (and quite successfully) :book:
What should be changed is the fact that any human player can take out macedonia in a few rounds with Epirus since using the elephants against Macedon citites which have only wooden walls allows to win a city per round.
Teleklos Archelaou
12-12-2006, 17:28
If Pyrrhus had not removed his armies from Macedon, and then taken them south to the Peloponnese, it would not have been that difficult to take the city of Pella. But he did pull back. It seems like that is exactly what is happening too with him in our AI turns - we can put him right next to Pella, but he still pulls back into Epeiros. Pretty accurate it seems! :grin:
One benefit for Macedon in the next build - they have a good army in Attica, which will often take Athens within the year I expect.
But back to the earlier point: if a human player is playing as Epeiros, and they want to press the Macedonians first, then they have a good chance of defeating them. That will remain. Especially if they use their unit of elephants to do all the dirty work for them (if you want a challenge, try not using them in siege battles - that's a little more accurate).
In my first EB game (vh/vh with getai, but then switched to m/m casse cuz EB is so much different than RTW), the maks were kicking ass.... they wiped out the epeirotes (w Roman help), conquered all continental koinon, annexed parts of Asia minor (beating the seleukids) and then turned against my lil' getai kingdom (tho we were allies)... I won most initial battles, but they kept coming and coming and coming and after losing 3 out of my 4 provs and with huge armies marching on my capital (sarmizegetusa) I had to surrender...
Well, I give in to temptation easily....:embarassed: :whip:
Anyway I think that Pella at least deserves some stone walls, it was the Macedonian capital for Christ's shake! And I read somewhere that when the Gauls arived they pillaged the countryside but couldn't take fortified cities like Pella.
-Praetor-
12-12-2006, 18:44
If Pyrrhus had not removed his armies from Macedon, and then taken them south to the Peloponnese, it would not have been that difficult to take the city of Pella. But he did pull back. It seems like that is exactly what is happening too with him in our AI turns - we can put him right next to Pella, but he still pulls back into Epeiros. Pretty accurate it seems!
LOL :grin: :grin: :grin:
Now, I would like to center the discussion on a different issue than the maks...
The problem here isn`t the overpowering of the Maks, Epeirotes or Hellenes, is the lack of a power that checks them on the north.
In like 29 or so posts of the "AI progression posts", I`ve encounteted this stats:
Total examples: 29
Getia with more than 2 provinces:___________7
Getia 2 provinces:________________________9
Getia 1 province (the one that it begins with):_9
Getia wiped out:__________________________4
Getia gets stagnated with one province 9 out of 29 times, that`s almost a third of the times. Equal number of times it expands only to a nearby province, and stagnate afterwards.
And of the times that it expands and owns more than 2 provinces, rarely it has more than 3 or 4, and never it becomes a regional power by conquering hellas. It never has gone souther than the provinces that lie next to the danube.
And the thing is, even though it expands in some times to more than 2 provinces, it never has the slightest chance in resisting the steamroll of whoever had conquered hellas. It`s like Getia is predestined to be wiped out every single time.
It lacks completely the power to resist a northern expansion coming from hellas, very different with what was historically.
Cheers!
PS: Ah, for Maks, the numbers are pretty divided, almost equally times being wiped out or en route to, and equal number of times mantaining at least their original holdings. Considering that in the area there are 3 very expansionistic powers, and that the Maks succeed in mantaining their holdings and/or conquering the area about half of the times, it looks pretty good to me. :shrug:
Teleklos Archelaou
12-12-2006, 18:57
The getai do have a better troop selection with those thracians and the tarabostes now. In 0.81, we have also worked on their starting unit situation. And given them a better population in their starting city. We'll see if that does anything to the AI progression.
-Praetor-
12-12-2006, 19:38
The getai look very good in fact, I`m looking forward to play with them after I finish some exams I have left.
But the problem (IMO) isn`t with the Getai (comprising roster, money, buildings, etc.) but with the rebel territories that are around them.
I`ve always asked myself why some rebel settlements, even though they start with 4 or 5 units, end producing full stacks for its defense, while others keep their armies with their 4 or 5 original units, without builing any others...
The thing is, if you want Getia to expand and to cause some troubles in the region and to affect their neighbours (maks and epeirotes), just like I want them to do, the rebel provinces to the north should be nerfed out, in order to encourage getai expansion in that area, and to give them the possibility to have a strong hinterland (or is it heartland?) in order to withstand the endless stacks of whoever conquers hellas, and eventually to conquer hellas by itself.
Cheers!
i haven't tested it enough to absolutely confirm it, but i think the skythian horse archer army that invades getia in the first 10 turns or so puts a big smack down on the getai. in earlier versions, HAs got trounced in autocalc, but the disparity is not so great any more, so I think that is setting the Getai back. has anyone else noticed this?
The Getai aren't as bad as Pontus - the rebel cities near them (barring Sinope) have huge garrisons (eg. tons of Gaesatae in Ancyra), while Pontus, even when having Sinope, doesn't stand a chance against them.
Yes i can confirm in my game that pontus and Gatai arnt doing so swell, i took a 2/4 full stack of my macedonians and rolled through, they were attempting to take another town ( the one in the black sea, north of byzation (spelling) but i quickly put a stop to that :book: then after defeating their only standing army in the field i quickly took their capital..... little did i know they had another town that has a full stack in it lol! so ive held off taking their final city and removing them from the equation (as i did with the hellenens (LOL spelling) but now i control all of the balkan peninsula, soon ill be expanding farther north, just a bit..... ( i dont want to get too much into the steppe.... not yet :laugh4: then ill head west to take over Rome, Spain, and Gaul. Then off to Egypt! or maybe just asian minor, then arabia.... then egypt! i dont know :sweatdrop:
Armenia is worse, I've never seem them do anything in any screen shot They grab the town North West of their starting point and then sit around their capital. Seems like they want to take that town just North East (its like 4 squares away) but they don't have the smarts to walk down the river for the crossing point. That crossing point was closer to them in the last build so they had no problem. Probably a method to try to stop them from becoming a Steppe kingdom but instead just makes them stall completely.
nikolai1962
12-14-2006, 08:55
In 0.81, we have also worked on their starting unit situation. And given them a better population in their starting city
I think this is probably critical. Playing Getai I never build units in the start city as the pop is too low. I go for the scared mountain city first and then use that for my unit building. If a human player (me) never recruits there until the pop is much higher, then I'd guess the AI de-pops that city pretty fast. So if they fail to gain a new city early they probably stall completely, waiting x turns for the pop to grow large enough to build a new unit while the surrounding rebel city garrisons get bigger and bigger.
Placing their starting stacks closer to the sacred mountain city might help too as it takes a while to move to it. Or some starting movement traits for the initial generals maybe. The starting pop is key though imo.
I`ve always asked myself why some rebel settlements, even though they start with 4 or 5 units, end producing full stacks for its defense, while others keep their armies with their 4 or 5 original units, without builing any others...
The rebel AI will spend all it's available cash it seems on some kind of rota (possibly something quite simple like alphabetical order) so it will build a unit down its list of cities until it runs out of cash that turn. Never tested to see if there was some logic to it but there is definitely a consistent pattern for each build of the game i.e the pattern can change with very slight modding changes but for if unchanged then the cities that produce the most units seems consistent.
If you play the game with FOW off in a quiet spot and watch what happens you'll see which rebel cities produce the most units and can then adjust the starting position accordingly. It does effect things a lot as if a faction AI is a bit slow taking a city you've set up as an easy expansion target, that city might have twice the original garrison by the time the AI gets to it.
(edit: off-topic but i really like having a holy mountain)
In me games, the Getai problem, is the AI, they have full stack that stand at the one city, and send weak stacks to besiege rebels. But mostly of me games they conquere 1 or 2 rebels.
Tellos Athenaios
12-14-2006, 22:36
Armenia is worse, I've never seem them do anything in any screen shot They grab the town North West of their starting point and then sit around their capital. Seems like they want to take that town just North East (its like 4 squares away) but they don't have the smarts to walk down the river for the crossing point. That crossing point was closer to them in the last build so they had no problem. Probably a method to try to stop them from becoming a Steppe kingdom but instead just makes them stall completely.
Not just to keep them from completely mopping up the Sarmatae, but also to reflect that the Hai didn't have that much of an army at that time given the Seleukid mistrust towards them. - At least that's what I read somewhere here on this forum...
Tellos Athenaios
12-14-2006, 22:41
The rebel AI will spend all it's available cash it seems on some kind of rota (possibly something quite simple like alphabetical order) so it will build a unit down its list of cities until it runs out of cash that turn. Never tested to see if there was some logic to it but there is definitely a consistent pattern for each build of the game i.e the pattern can change with very slight modding changes but for if unchanged then the cities that produce the most units seems consistent.
From what I've experienced, it seems as if the Eleutheroi build up all their forces at their targeted border cities. Should you attack a rebel city and fail, then you'll see next turn an increase in the garissons in an area consisting of some cities around that particular city + the city itself. Just my 2 cents.
Samurai Waki
12-14-2006, 23:51
Getai have been quite a bit of Headway in my Sweboz campaign.:2thumbsup: They've taken almost all of the cities along the Thracian Coast, and are now moving into Illyria. Should be very interesting to see what happens when they come into a major terf war with the Maks (who also seem to be doing really well).
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