Ever got a vassal?

[Ripipip]

I was playing denmark and had already destroyed England when i faced Scottland. They were my allies and patheticly weak when they turned against me :inquisitive: . Anyway, i killed all their units with one army and took all their settlements except for Dublin where the faction leader was. Scottlands only unit. I gathered a huge army outside and then i took my diplomat and asked them if they wanted to be my vassals. They refused. Then i offered them every region in the brittish islands and a few in france but they still refused to be my vassals for all those 15 provinces or so.. :no: . I mean, why have the vassal function if it is impossible to get one!? Big surprise for their lonely king when i killed him a few seconds after and scottland was destroyed. Idiot. So honestly, any1 EVER managed to get a vassal?

[sapi]

I have, but only when things didn't degenarate to the 'fight to the death mentality', and i had to pay a hell of a lot for it.

iirc it was after smashing their only field army and paying them about 150k (as england to the hre)

[Basileus]

Ive always found this option flawed so i never use it my self, you dont get any good benefits from it either as far as i gather so pointless.

[TevashSzat]

I got one really easily. I was Denmark and number 1 overall and I attacked Poland with a full stack besieging Thorn. They were like 14th or 15th overall so they didn't attack me at all even though they had a city near it and asked for a ceasefire. I asked them to become my vassal and to my surprise it was a balanced offer and they accepted.

[Nutranurse]

Were you using any AI mods?

[Faenaris]

I had 1 vasal pre-patch and 2 vassals after patch. I now use Shawa Wangy's diplomacy mod and it improves diplomacy on the whole. Vassals are a bit easier to get: In my Portugal Campaign, I managed to smash the Spaniards out the Iberian Peninsula and they were down to 1 castle in Bourdeaux. I smashed their last field army, parked my army next to the city (but not besieged it) and then asked for vasalisation. I gave them 25.000 florins to sweeten the deal, but they accepted. They broke away after 15 turns when I tried to buy their last city.

[TevashSzat]

i wasn't using any mods and only had the patch installed.

[Musashi]

If the enemy sends an emissary to YOU to ask for a ceasefire, you can almost always negotiate for them to become a vassal.

If you send the emissary to them, be prepared to pay through the nose.

Also you have to have a good global reputation (Reliable at least, but much better if you have Trustworthy or Very Trustworthy) or it won't happen. If you don't have a good global reputation the AI won't send you emissaries because it doesn't believe you will keep a ceasefire agreement.

[LavaLampMaster]

I could never figure out what vassalage does. what, exactly, does it do?

[Blademun]

Vassalage does only one thing for you, it adds to your Territory count. All the Territroys controlled by a Vassal count toward the # of Regions you need to win the game. I won my HRE game by taking Iberia, then a Diplomat from the moors came to me offering a ceasefire. On a whim, I renegotiated for them to be my vassals. They agreed and Next thing I know I won. Note: this was on H/H difficulty.

Of course, technically you also get the benefit of a military alliance/trade/and movement access. Not much, but unlike other alliances, vassalage is one the AI never breaks on their own.


Also, when playing Hungary, Byzantine constantly asks me to become their vassal after attacking me. I swallowed my pride and accepted, and to my suprise, nothing happened. THey never bothered me again, it was the most convenient thing that ever happened. I took over the rest of the balakans, and then Italy. I completely outgrew Byzantium; one day my great armies show up on the doorstep of every one of their cities. Next Turn: No more Byzantium. :laugh4:

[sapi]

Yep - vassalage doesn't work as it should.

It's supposed to be that:
- you can't break the vassalage
- you can't declare war/make peace with anyone
- you have to pay the other faction when you get too rich

...but it doesn't work :(

[Musashi]

I get tons of money when I have a big vassal state, so it seems it IS working.

[pevergreen]

I became a vassal for fun, used to add_money 40000 cheat, next turn, no money.

[sapi]

The money's the only part that works ;)

[TevashSzat]

The unable to break of your alliance if you are the vassal definately doesn't work. In my campaign once i got the Polish as my vassals, I attacked HRE. The polish were allied with the HRE so they break off their vassalage....just two turns after they became vassals.

[Musashi]

Why shouldn't they be able to break their vassalage? That would be unrealistic.

[dopp]

Conditions for vassalage, based on the vanilla diplomacy settings:

1. Be at war with them.

2. Border all their lands. If they happen to have a crusader region tucked away somewhere, then too bad; they feel safe enough to defy you. Wipe them out for their foolishness.

3. Have 3 times their frontline military strength.

4. Have 4 times their free military strength.

5. Have a higher production rating than them. If you're the type that maintains small, elite armies and builds units infrequently, then they may think you are weak. Build stuff the turn before you ask them to raise the rating and impress them with your awesome industrial might.

6. NOT be their "shadow faction". Short campaigns usually require your faction to eliminate one or two others to win. Those factions will never accept ceasefire or vassalage and will fight to the death.

Vassalage is actually a little fragile because the vassal maintains its old alliances. The relationship will often break when you go to war with one of its allies as it (rather obviously) chooses to support the other side.

[hundurinn]

I was able to get the French to accept vassalage but they immediately broke it the same turn. I guess it will never work.:wall:

[sapi]

Why shouldn't they be able to break their vassalage? That would be unrealistic.
Vassalage = full occupation. There's no way you'd let them make their own decisions.

[baron_Leo]

Vassalage = full occupation. There's no way you'd let them make their own decisions.


Yeah but, vassals should be able for example to revolt against their heirs...as it did happen often in history

[Mooks]

So sad, I had high hopes CA would improve on this :no:

On the plus side though, if you are in a war with a faction that is very far away, or has a huge cultural diffrence, making them your vassal will make it so you dont have to garrison their cities - or finish them off. The term "Buffer states" comes to mind.

[Lord_Tamerial]

Funny I thought that getting vassal state were to easy. A couple of Florins here and there a couple of threats and almost total occupation, and they accept. It is fun for a while but all they do is stand around, thinking that i should protect them. It is just like a protectorate in RTW, but easier to get in M2. It is no different than an ally.

[sapi]

Yeah but, vassals should be able for example to revolt against their heirs...as it did happen often in history
My point is that if you're a vassal, any revolt you tried would end in the destruction of your entire faction (through use of the occupation troops)

[Musashi]

That's not true... Vassals were rarely heavily occupied. Part of the point of a vassalage is that the vassal is required to maintain an army for your use... And part of the reason people agree to them is that they are allowed to remain largely autonomous.

What you're talking about is more on the order of the destruction of the faction, something only an idiot would agree to.

[sapi]

I'm talking 'vassalage' in the terms of what happened to japan and germany after ww2 (and to some extent germany after ww1 with the rhineland) - the country is allowed to exist but must relinquish all control over its destiny and submit to a military occupation.

Basically, an admission of defeat without being totally destroyed.

[gingergenius]

Yes.

As the English I had long since driven the Russians out of their traditional territory, and though I was still at war with them, there had been about 50 years of stalemate with them in Yerevan, Trebizond and Edessa.

The only other surviving faction was the Egyptians. Long previously, I had paid them a large sum of money over 3 turns in order that they might make peace - not because I was losing but because I felt like a break from war. The turn after my money finished and Egyptian fleets began blockading my ports, so I vowed to wipe them off the map. At the same time, they were allied to the Russians.

I had captured all of Egypt except Antioch and Jerusalem, and I spotted a Russian princess. I married her and there was an Anglo-Russian alliance -unfortunately this meant a ceasefire with the Egyptians. I quickly continued with my oath to destroy them and Russia broke off the alliance. After a few more turns giving them money (I wanted to be friends with someone having been at war with various factions non stop for 300 years) they asked for all their traditional land back or they would attack. I moved in and besieged all their cities. Another princess pops up and I married her. By this time the Egyptians were destroyed, and the Russians had moved into Mosul and Baghdad. Again, they threatened to attack if I didn't give Russia back to them. The next war lost them Yerevan, Trebizond, Edessa and Mosul, before I spotted another princess and married her. A turn later they agreed to become my vassal.

As my vassal I saw no benefit to England - the Russians were still lippy, and it was as if they had become my ally - no different. After a few turns, I got bored and conquered Baghdad, wiping them off the map too.

All in all, them being my vassals was a waste of time.

[Musashi]

I'm talking 'vassalage' in the terms of what happened to japan and germany after ww2 (and to some extent germany after ww1 with the rhineland) - the country is allowed to exist but must relinquish all control over its destiny and submit to a military occupation.

Basically, an admission of defeat without being totally destroyed.
Yeah, that's not how vassalage worked in the medieval period, not usually anyway.

Generally one king or lord would agree to be the vassal of the other. He retains his title and authority, but he takes on the responsibilities of a vassal... Just like any of the other king's dukes, this king is expected to provide armies for the sovereign state in time of war, and pay taxes to the sovereign state.

The point for the winner is that they don't have to go to the expense of finishing the conquest, or garrisoning the conquered province... And the vassal state doesn't have to suffer being fully annexed and occupied.

[TevashSzat]

The vassal however agreed to the terms of the vassalage and if they break it even if you attacked one of their allies, they should at least lose reputation.

[baron_Leo]

Yeah, that's not how vassalage worked in the medieval period, not usually anyway.

Generally one king or lord would agree to be the vassal of the other. He retains his title and authority, but he takes on the responsibilities of a vassal... Just like any of the other king's dukes, this king is expected to provide armies for the sovereign state in time of war, and pay taxes to the sovereign state.

The point for the winner is that they don't have to go to the expense of finishing the conquest, or garrisoning the conquered province... And the vassal state doesn't have to suffer being fully annexed and occupied.

Your totally right. And this also means, that the vassal does not lose all of his armies, maybe there is a limitation to their troops. But it would be ahistorical to deny the possibility of breaking free from the heir. As Musashi says look to the vassal nations as they were dukes or other nobles, who were under the king. The King had a closed corona (crown) and all his vassals an open one. They rode to battle under their own flag, but had to be loyal to the ruler. Often vassalage was a really good deal for the vassal (like Hungary-Croatia).

[Musashi]

To be honest, the only problem I have with the vassalage system as it stands, is that one of your allies can attack your vassal without it being considered a breach of your alliance with them.

Historically, if you attacked someone's vassal, you were attacking them.

And in game terms it means that if you choose to defend your vassal, you'll be considered to be breaking your alliance with the attacker, and YOUR reputation will suffer, when in fact it should be improved by coming to the aid of your vassal, as that was the duty of a chivalrous sovereign, and other nobles would see that as both fitting and noble, admirable even.

[Vlad Tzepes]

Both in MTW2 and in RTW, vassalage (and protectorate) surely don't work as history determined. But, hey, it's just a game.

On the other hand, in-game vassalage has a funny logic that I, at least, have trouble getting used to it.

I got my first MTW2 vassal yesterday, playing my French campaign. HRE, allied with me, suddenly attacked and put under siege one of my cities. They used for that a tiny stack. As I sallied out, HRE retreated, with no casualties (in fact, they lost 1 soldier, I don't now exactly how, probably due to a heart attack on the battlefield or playing dead or something...).

Next turn, one of their diplomats proposed ceasefire and I responded with an offer to make them vassals.

They were so glad to accept...

Notes: France was really big at that time, HRE only had 5 provinces. France and HRE were allied since the beginning of the campaign. After getting HRE as vassals, they withdrew all stacks form my territory. And, as HRE are broke, I don't get any money from them, as supposed to.

[dopp]

The diplomacy code prevents others from attacking your vassal/protectorate if you are a trusted ally. Unfortunately, Kobal2fr discovered that the trusted ally setting has been disabled in the vanilla file, hence the AI considers your vassals legitimate targets regardless of whether you are allied to them or not. Mods like Ultimate AI and Shaba Wanga's Diplomacy v1.5 re-enables the setting, allowing you to have reliable allies that won't attack you or your vassals if they are happy with you.