red hair in the illiad

[Julian the apostate]

menelaus had red hair? did mycenes have hair colors as such and also do any of the islands actually match up in the ionic sea and such

[IrishArmenian]

Well, Menelaus could be that very small percentile of people who had ancestors from the Norse lands who traveled down to the area and assimilated into the culture, still holding on to one of their genes.

[Watchman]

I seem to recall having seen offhand mentions of the Thracians having relatively commonly been described as red-haired...

[Marshal Murat]

1.He could have Norse heritage
2.The Iiliad was created by the Celts, who used their history to create this epic, and that Menelaus, who has red hair, is actually a Celtic prince.
Check it out.

[Watchman]

Stupid question, but since when was Norse pedigree associated with red hair anyway...?

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

Can you point us to the passage in question?

[Del Arroyo]

I seem to recall Menelaus being mentioned as having red hair.

The entire Iliad is available online. If somebody wanted to they could check.

As far as the Iliad being made up by the Celts-- how fascinating! Because of course, it makes perfect sense-- what better way to glorify their history and culture, than to write a literary epic which only a handful of deluded crockpots would believe was actually written by them!!

:inquisitive:

[Justiciar]

Thracian genes makes vastly more sense.

Could also be that in said early period in history there hadn't been quite so much intermarrying with darker haired, swarthier people, meaning that Red or Blonde hair wouldn't have been unheard of in the region. Think of northern europe today and it's steadily shrinking portion of blondes and red heads. Just a wild stab in the dark! At any rate, red hair must have been rare, otherwise it wouldn't have merrited mention.

[Marshal Murat]

http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/

I like the idea, just because it makes more sense than the idea of the Greeks using chariots in a very Celtic style then reverting back to other styles.
Especially if you compare the the Iliad to Celts in Britain, and their tactics.

[Del Arroyo]

http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/

I like the idea, just because it makes more sense than the idea of the Greeks using chariots in a very Celtic style then reverting back to other styles.
Especially if you compare the the Iliad to Celts in Britain, and their tactics.

I must concede that the theory, as presented on the site you linked, does make some sense. It basically says that peoples from the North were moving into the Mediterranean around these times, which IS true, and that they took the oral history with them and it got adapted to their new language and new region.

Still, I'm not convinced. I would like to hear an opposing argument.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

The Iiliad was created by the Celts

Homer was a celt?

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

As far as the Iliad being made up by the Celts-- how fascinating! Because of course, it makes perfect sense-- what better way to glorify their history and culture, than to write a literary epic which only a handful of deluded crockpots would believe was actually written by them!!


Making up for Julius Caesar :2thumbsup:

[Watchman]

I like the idea, just because it makes more sense than the idea of the Greeks using chariots in a very Celtic style then reverting back to other styles.
Especially if you compare the the Iliad to Celts in Britain, and their tactics.The Iliad was compiled centuries after the Mycenean chariot warfare had been abandoned, so the descriptions on exactly how they went about using those noisy things are understandably a little confused. The Dorics, having cast to ruin the arostocratic charioteers and their civilization, obviously had never seen any reason to preserve the know-how. Surviving pictorial sources suggest the Myceneans used the "light" pattern of chariot very popular in the Chariot Age Middle East though, which was chiefly a mobile archery platform. The bit about Odysseus' strong bow is pretty interesting in that regard.

The Celtic tradition of chariot warfare had rather little in common with the by then long defunct two main schools of Late Bronze Age chariotry, although a descendant of the Hittites' "heavy shock" approach was used by the Assyrians until their end, by some accounts by the Carthaginians as a terror weapon until they turned to elephants, and by the Indian armies Alexander fought.

[Julian the apostate]

thank you for the link.
a shame i'd have to spend money as i'm broke

[KARTLOS]

in classical times a larger percentage of the poulation was fair headed. blondes were much more common as were red heads.

the ethnic composition of people described as greek has changed alot since then for many reasons. modern greeks are not really an exclusive ethnic group, in comparison for example to norwegians. Being greek more signifies a common cultural heritage rather than distinctive genetics.

[Watchman]

Well, the Greek peninsula is kind of in media res and duly pretty much everyone and their dog went there at one point or another. Fennoscandia is kind of a cold and hostile backwater on the edge of nowhere, so the incoming traffic was naturally rather puny in comparision.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

in classical times a larger percentage of the poulation was fair headed. blondes were much more common as were red heads.


And your sources for this statement are?

[KARTLOS]

And your sources for this statement are?

it is just quite a common observation that many of the ancient greeks were described as being blonde, freckly etc.

obviously there still remains some fair greeks but it is certainly not common.

do you need a source for the fact that the ethnic make- up of the greeks has changed massively since classical times?

Interestingly a number of egpytian pharoes mummies have been found to have
blonde and red hair. I believe Ramsess II was a red head!

[KARTLOS]

here is a link on rameses red headed ness:

http://www.north-of-africa.com/article.php3?id_article=210

[Spino]

I think there is a faulty assumption at work in this thread which takes the position that the genes responsible for red hair originated with Celtic & other northern European peoples. True, there is an undeniable concentration of red haired people in Central and Northern Europe but the gene flow pattern might actually be the other way around, with red hair originating in N. Africa and/or Central Asia and slowly working its way into N. Europe where the gene was allowed to flourish in smaller, isolated populations.

There is also the possibility that the mutation which brought about red hair spontaneously appeared in two or more 'unrelated' populations but I don't know if I would put too much money on that one.

I love the idea that Ramses actually was a wavy haired, red head of the swarthy persuasion. Not only does it blast the sub-Saharan revisionist theory out of the water but it lends itself to forcing Hollyweird to seriously rethink its casting decisions... :egypt:

[Vladimir]

There was an image I saw some time ago of one of Saddam Hussein's former generals. This man had light skin and red hair. His age may have affected his coloration but it was remarked that he was of Assyrian origin. Also aryans are from Iran and region correct?

[KARTLOS]

I think there is a faulty assumption at work in this thread which takes the position that the genes responsible for red hair originated with Celtic & other northern European peoples. True, there is an undeniable concentration of red haired people in Central and Northern Europe but the gene flow pattern might actually be the other way around, with red hair originating in N. Africa and/or Central Asia and slowly working its way into N. Europe where the gene was allowed to flourish in smaller, isolated populations.

There is also the possibility that the mutation which brought about red hair spontaneously appeared in two or more 'unrelated' populations but I don't know if I would put too much money on that one.

I love the idea that Ramses actually was a wavy haired, red head of the swarthy persuasion. Not only does it blast the sub-Saharan revisionist theory out of the water but it lends itself to forcing Hollyweird to seriously rethink its casting decisions... :egypt:

you cant really get swarthy red heads. the genes which produce red hair also result in fair skin. Freckles are almost inevitable!

The ancient pharoes would therefore most likely not looked much like modern egyptains, and instead were fairly eurpoean in appearence. (that is kingdom began to fall into terminal decline in the third intemdiate period and there was a nubian dynatsty)

[KARTLOS]

I think there is a faulty assumption at work in this thread which takes the position that the genes responsible for red hair originated with Celtic & other northern European peoples. True, there is an undeniable concentration of red haired people in Central and Northern Europe but the gene flow pattern might actually be the other way around, with red hair originating in N. Africa and/or Central Asia and slowly working its way into N. Europe where the gene was allowed to flourish in smaller, isolated populations.

There is also the possibility that the mutation which brought about red hair spontaneously appeared in two or more 'unrelated' populations but I don't know if I would put too much money on that one.

:

you are correct that the gentic mutations which produce red hair might have arisen sperately in several locations. such mutations will be occuring right now anywhere in the world. however there a re two factors which favour the survival of red-headedness in northern europe.

firstly - the genes for dark hair are dominant over those which produce red har, which in turn are dominant over the genes for blondeness. Therefore mutations which result in red har are much more likley to be noticed in a population in which blondeness is common.

secondly as i mentioned previoulsy red hair is intimately connected to skin colour . There is obviously going to be a selective pressure against red hair in sunnier locations.

interstingly there are some berber tribes in the atlas mountain in north africa with large percentages of blonde and red haired individuals.

[Oleander Ardens]

The bit about Odysseus' strong bow .. a watchful watchman. Long life the Hornaboga :beam:

Cheers
OA

[KARTLOS]

There was an image I saw some time ago of one of Saddam Hussein's former generals. This man had light skin and red hair. His age may have affected his coloration but it was remarked that he was of Assyrian origin. Also aryans are from Iran and region correct?

iran actually means land of the aryans.

there are in fact considerable number of blode and fair headed people in iran. the sarmatians and alans were and iranic-speaking people and are described as being blonde and fair by contemporary accounts. in fact blond/red hair and fair skin can be seen throughout central asia in iranic speaking populations eg kurdistan afghanistan etc


however the nazi notion of aryans being a blonde maste race is completely discredited now. i.e there is no evidence that the modern population of germany is closesly related genetically to indo-iranian "aryans".

[Marshal Murat]

Unfortunately for Ramses II, the hairstyles were bald with a wig of hair.

[Watchman]

interstingly there are some berber tribes in the atlas mountain in north africa with large percentages of blonde and red haired individuals.Isn't that usually attributed to the Vandals ?

[Orb]

Alexeios (I) of the Byzantine empire is said (by his daughter) to have had bright red hair.

[Vladimir]

Isn't that usually attributed to the Vandals ?

After all this time those regions must be prety isolated.

[Watchman]

That much the better for keeping alive recessive genetic features then. Happens a lot with isolated populations.

[KARTLOS]

Isn't that usually attributed to the Vandals ?


no and it is not logical either. the vandals did not subjugate the atlas mountains, they conquered the cities. they probably had very little genetic impact on the berber populations.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

I don't think Greeks had red hair. Most of them had it because of Celtic influence.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

Don't pull that whole, different than classical times card. I'm 80% Greek (20% Russian, which I used to think was half of me :inquisitive:), no red hair.

[KARTLOS]

Don't pull that whole, different than classical times card. I'm 80% Greek (20% Russian, which I used to think was half of me :inquisitive:), no red hair.


so becuase you dont have red hair - no ancient greeks did?

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

so becuase you dont have red hair - no ancient greeks did?

It means that it's highly improbable that Greeks have had red hair.

[KARTLOS]

It means that it's highly improbable that Greeks have had red hair.

do you honestly believe that or are you joking?

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

do you honestly believe that or are you joking?

I believe that, the only way I think Greeks had red hair was Celtic influence.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

do you honestly believe that or are you joking?


And as you have to had said to me once,


i can only asume this is because you find the idea uncomfortable.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

In the 4th Century AD, the Jewish physician Adamantios, described what he called the "true Greek" – or where the “Hellenic race has been kept pure” as follows:


"Wherever the Hellenic and Ionic race has been kept pure, we see proper tall men of fairly broad and straight build, neatly made, of fairly light skin and blond"

[KARTLOS]

It means that it's highly improbable that Greeks have had red hair.

your logic is fairly shocking

just because you dont have red hair and are of greek descent no ancient greeks could have had red hair??

nobody is suggesting that all greeks were red heads, so why is it impossible for you to believe that one or two were??

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

your logic is fairly shocking

just because you dont have red hair and are of greek descent no ancient greeks could have had red hair??

nobody is suggesting that all greeks were red heads, so why is it impossible for you to believe that one or two were??

Hmmmmmmmm, maybe because I haven't seen one piece of viable evidence suggesting that Greeks had red hair.

[KARTLOS]

In the 4th Century AD, the Jewish physician Adamantios, described what he called the "true Greek" – or where the “Hellenic race has been kept pure” as follows:


this quote provides suport for my proposistion that the ethnic composistion of "greeks" has changed considerably since classical times

i.e that for example blondeness was clearlly more common then

[Red Peasant]

In the 4th Century AD, the Jewish physician Adamantios, described what he called the "true Greek" – or where the “Hellenic race has been kept pure” as follows:

Hmm, C4 AD is over 1,500 years after Mycenaean times. A lot can happen in that amount of time. Red hair is described in the Iliad, written about C8 BC, and Homer didn't seem to have a problem with it. What's the problem? Maybe it was a metaphor, or a certain shade of brunette that 'looks' red. That's how modern Greeks normally explain away these inconvenient details. Quite amusing really. Personally, I think the red hair meant Menelaus was from Liverpool; the Mycenaeans were Scousers! :laugh4:

[Kagemusha]

According to Wiki: "Red is an uncommon hair color among humans, found mainly in Northern and Western European populations (and descendants of these populations), although it occurs in low frequencies throughout other parts of Europe and Asia."

So i think its possible that some Greeks could have had red hair without any more complicated theories.
Here is the full article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

[Del Arroyo]

GAH!! If they can have blond hair, they can have red hair. Red hair is a hybrid of blondness.

GAH!

[Basileus]

While red hair is very rare in Greece you will find some people that have it, 2 cousins of mine have dark redish hair. In fact ive seen Turks/Lebanese/Iraqis etc with redish hair.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

Here is something to read on the subject...

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/composites/
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/hellenes/

[Orda Khan]

There is every possibility that different hair colours existed. The description 'red' is automatically associated with 'ginger' these days, however it could just as easily have been used to describe shades of brown. Many tribes around the Altai were described as having red hair and green eyes, most notably Chingis Khan and his immediate family. The Chinese were describing brown. I know some Scandinavians who are dark haired, so nations cannot be lumped into a category such as hair colour, populations moved too much

........Orda



edit: typo

[KARTLOS]

Here is something to read on the subject...

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/composites/
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/hellenes/

he seems to use fairly old sources from the 60's and 70's. classing people as nordic, alpinid etc is fairly outdated now

[Watchman]

I know some Scandinavians who are dark haired, so nations cannot be lumped into a category such as hair colour, populations moved to much

........OrdaJust by eyeballing the crowds here, I'd say most Scandinavians are dark-haired. Or some shade of brown anyway. Blond hair is a recessive trait after all.

[KARTLOS]

Just by eyeballing the crowds here, I'd say most Scandinavians are dark-haired. Or some shade of brown anyway. Blond hair is a recessive trait after all.

finland is not a good example of a scandinavian country in terms of ethnicity, hence the fact that the majority of the population speak a language completely unrelated to sweish/norwegian/danish.

[Watchman]

Well, duh. Not that language was too good a mark of ethnicity though, some of our south-western coastal areas are almost entirely Swedish-speaking, as are many of the islands. Simple migration across the Baltic has done its part in that over the millenia as well of course, but trading and cultural links doubtless even more.

I've been to Scandianvia proper though. Can't exactly say a wide proliferation of blondes made a strong impression - it's not all that common over there either, just relatively more common than in most other places.

[Kagemusha]

Well again we are at square one. If we are talking genetics then we should talk about genetics.If about ethnicity then about ethnicity. If we are talking about the genetic inheritance of population of Finland then genetically closest populations according to reacent studies are Germans and Dutch. So i dont see a point what does the language of Finnish population which is a Finno Ugrig one has to do with their genetics, which determines things like haircolour.
There is simply no such a homogenetic groups of people in novadays Europe left that could be stereotyped so grously.
You can divide people easily becouse of their language,but from Genetics its lot harder.Becouse of a simple reason that homogenetic "Nations" doesnt exist anymore and im not quite sure when ever there even have been something which could have been called that since human populations need genetic mixing.

[KARTLOS]

since human populations need genetic mixing.

im sorry but that is simply not true (im speaking as a phd biologist)

[Kagemusha]

im sorry but that is simply not true (im speaking as a phd biologist)

So inbreeding doesnt have negative effects on human populations? Care to show some proof?

Here is an article about effects of inbreeding:

http://www.as.wvu.edu/~kgarbutt/QuantGen/Gen535_2_2004/Inbreeding_Humans.htm

And one about Mithocondrial DNA studies and how that proofs that the talk about European "races" does really belong into world of 30`s.

http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_wtd020876.html

[KARTLOS]

So inbreeding doesnt have negative effects on human populations? Care to show some proof?

Here is an article about effects of inbreeding:

http://www.as.wvu.edu/~kgarbutt/QuantGen/Gen535_2_2004/Inbreeding_Humans.htm

And one about Mithocondrial DNA studies and how that proofs that the talk about European "races" does really belong into world of 30`s.

http://genome.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_wtd020876.html

look i agree with the majority of your previous post and of course inbreeding has a negative effect.

i perhaps misunderstood the first comment i responded to and read into it too much. when you said human "populations need genetic mixing" i understood you to be suggesting that large scale mixing was necessary.

the truth is that a population does not need to be massive to avoid interbreeding. the genetic problems associated in interbreeding tend to occur when the gene pool is severely restricted by nature such as on an island, or by human choice as in the case of european royal families and eurpoean jews of a few hundered years ago. it would be hard to suggest that the population of any modern european state is in need of genetic mixing from an outside source. (with the exception of perhaps iceland).

[Watchman]

IIRC Finland is actually a pretty popular place among heredity researchers. Many regions were for a long time rather isolated with little population movement in and out so there's a lot of peculiar minor hereditary diseases going around, and on top of that fairly accurate and well-preserved Church records on births, marriages and so on stretch back to around Late Middle Ages. Detailed and massive databases on population health going back at least fifty years don't hurt either.

'Course, as the country is no longer an agrarian backwood the geneticists are now in a bit of a hurry to gather the data before them backwater peculiarities disappear from the gene pool the normal way.

[KARTLOS]

just a quick note on dna ancestry studies - it is a fairly recent field and each new study tends to contradict the last. there are some general trends - for example most eveidence points towards an african origin for homo sapiens. ( even then there is not much consensus on the dates)

therefore it is best to take all such studies with a degree of caution as it is always gonig to be difficult to extrapolate past events from modern dna evidence.

[Avicenna]

Ah, why am I not surprised to see that it is Hannibal speaking?

Anyway, back to the point. If what he said were true, then Peter Crouch is obviously not English. Why? Because I know for a fact that there is at least one person not 6'7" in England, with Churchill being 5'6". Therefore if the statement is true, one of them must not be English, and all English males up to 3200 years before now must have been of an identical height and hair colour.

Oh, and by the way, just as an example, there was a Scandinavian known as Erik the RED due to his hair colour. Using Hannibal's logic I therefore must deduce that all Scandinavians must have red hair, wear wigs or dye their hair.

EDIT: oh, and by the way, it is impossible to be 20% Russian. You can be close, but not 20%.

[Watchman]

A fairly famous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_the_Red) Scandinavian to boot. :medievalcheers:

[KARTLOS]

Ah, why am I not surprised to see that it is Hannibal speaking?

Anyway, back to the point. If what he said were true, then Peter Crouch is obviously not English. Why? Because I know for a fact that there is at least one person not 6'7" in England, with Churchill being 5'6". Therefore if the statement is true, one of them must not be English, and all English males up to 3200 years before now must have been of an identical height and hair colour.

Oh, and by the way, just as an example, there was a Scandinavian known as Erik the RED due to his hair colour. Using Hannibal's logic I therefore must deduce that all Scandinavians must have red hair, wear wigs or dye their hair.

EDIT: oh, and by the way, it is impossible to be 20% Russian. You can be close, but not 20%.

who is hannibal? has someone changed their name

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

EDIT: oh, and by the way, it is impossible to be 20% Russian. You can be close, but not 20%.

It was an estimate, really.

[Patriarch of Constantinople]

Oh, and by the way, just as an example, there was a Scandinavian known as Erik the RED due to his hair colour. Using Hannibal's logic I therefore must deduce that all Scandinavians must have red hair, wear wigs or dye their hair.


Well could it be possible he could have had ancestors of Celtic or other red headed origin?

[Marshal Murat]

My Post-Celtic Heritage-Immigration that wiped out Myceanan civilization?
Homer=Celt?

Questions, question, and more questions.

[Czar Alexsandr]

For what it's worth the ancient greeks had contacts with a lot of people. Such as Troy being in modren Turkey for example. But I seem to remember a historic account of a persian scholar who travled to Khazar. He discribed the people there to be light skinned and a mix of blond and red haired. Also.. I believe the Egyptians also had some contact with the Kazars and had also noted that the people had red hair. (red was the color of Set. The devil, this made the Khazars a bit more mystical to them.)

[Watchman]

Khazars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar)...? :inquisitive:


Well could it be possible he could have had ancestors of Celtic or other red headed origin?Of course. By ship Scandinavia is pretty close to the Celtic Fringe of the British Isles. I don't quite see why it would somehow be necessary though.