Impossible to charge?

[Hurin_Rules]

I just started playing the game a few days ago, and while there have been some good moments, I've also had a lot of frustration. I'm not sure why virtually everything was given a late medieval look-- my mailed knights are from the 14th century even though it's only 1106 in game, for example-- and there are many other gripes. But the real gamebreaker for me is the charges.

Why can't anything charge in formation? Playing the tutorial, at the Battle of Hastings, the Anglo-Saxon reinforcements charged my infantry. Well, I say charged, but it was a Hollywood-Braveheart type charge much more than anything you'd expect from trained soldiers. That is to say, the Anglo-Saxons broke formation completely and charged, individually and pell-mell, at my unit-- the battle was a pure mob-action with isolated troops fighting as individuals. It seems the moment the enemy general said to charge, they forgot completely about formation and ran at top speed towards the enemy. My troops fared little better. WTF?

Things didn't get any better when I started a single-player campaign as England. Send in my infantry militia, but the entire right wing of one of my units charged while the other side of the same unit stood still watching... it was like one giant game of Red Rover.

The cavalry fared no better. I got one good charge for every 5 horrible ones. Once I told my general unit to charge a unit of infantry, and it finally managed to gallop in something resembling formation-- yaay, I thought, finally!-- but at the last minute they not only slowed down, but turned around like a school of fish and meandered about, doing absolutely nothing to the enemy.

This one is a real gamebreaker for me. I've tried both single-clicking and double clicking, but it seems nearly impossible to deliver a good charge. If this is CA's way of balancing cavalry charges, it's very, very weak, and exceptionally frustrating. I sure hope there's a fix coming...

[GotGame36]

Do you have the patched version?

They somewhat fixed the charge issue with the patch, not perfected but better.

[IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer]

The patch (mostly) fixed the issue of cavalry not charging with their lances out. It did not, however, do anything to fix the issue with infantry. I'm referring to when infantry "charge" at an enemy, but only 10 guys from the 120 man unit actually rush forward to fight, leaving the rest behind to play with their swords.

[Lusted]

I'm referring to when infantry "charge" at an enemy, but only 10 guys from the 120 man unit actually rush forward to fight, leaving the rest behind to play with their swords.

Thats quite easy to fix by lowering the charge distance, i'll be mentinionnig it to Pala.

[GotGame36]

Lower or raise the charge distance??

[GotGame36]

Reason......I noticed before patch charge distance for cavalry was 45 and post past is now 80

[General Zhukov]

Seeing more and more of these threads pop up, and contrasting their complaints with the experiences of various experienced players on the boards, and my experiences, it has gradually become clear that the Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

Edit: By "these threads" I mean ones talking about how hard it is to charge.

[Hurin_Rules]

Yes, I should have mentioned, I have patched to 1.1, and I'm still seeing this horrible charging going on.

This other thread [ https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77570 ] notes some problems with cavalry charging cavalry; perhaps this is part of the issue.

Either way, I can't believe the devs didn't notice this one... did they even play the game before they released it? This is brutal.

[Hurin_Rules]

Seeing more and more of these threads pop up, and contrasting their complaints with the experiences of various experienced players on the boards, and my experiences, it has gradually become clear that the Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair.

Ok GZ, then perhaps you can explain to us neophytes how you get your troops to charge in formation?

By the way, I've played every previous game in the TW series extensively, from Shogun to RTW. I've beated the game with 2 factions in Shogun, 7 factions in MTW and 4 in RTW. I would hardly describe myself as inexperienced.

[GotGame36]

I get the units to set-up facing the enemy....a medium distance away....then have them charge.......they will start to run and when they get into "charge" distance they start to charge themselves. Works 99% of the time.

1) AI units must not be moving for a better charge.
2) Terrain should be as flat as possible

[General Zhukov]

Ok GZ, then perhaps you can explain to us neophytes how you get your troops to charge in formation?

You mean cavalry, right? Because I don't care whether other units charge as a tight unit.

First, there should not be obstructions between you and the target. A tree, or a single rock, is sufficient to spoil the attempt. Second, only try charges on flat or downhill terrain. Third, ensure that your cavalry travel in as much of a straight line as possible en route to the target; moving targets can cause pathing and formation problems.

For charging, there are two options, as you know. Single-click, and double-click. Single-click works 80% of the time for me, with the other 20% failing from the "hero" phenomenon, where a few men run ahead and clash with the enemy, leading to a disruption of the overall charge. Eight out of ten success rate does not mean to me that there is a serious issue with this.

Due to seemingly higher predictability and success, I used single-click for a long time. Now, I am getting faster and smoother with the controls and find that double-click charges work just fine as well, at least post-patch. In fact, dashing charges seem to keep together better as they move, since there can be no running ahead with the unit already at top speed.

And by the way, this is my first TW game, and I have I'm sure less experience on these engines than many others here. But might that be a virtue in a sense? I took to the new game, units, and systems on their own terms, without comparing them to previous efforts and relying on other preconceived notions. Fresh eyes and all that.

[Ulstan]

You mean cavalry, right? Because I don't care whether other units charge as a tight unit.


Then why are you on this thread?

It's fine if you dont' care about shields working, infantry charging correctly, just smile and nod and refrain from butting in to the threads of people who do care.

Maybe this is an over-reaction to people criticzing the game. I get irked too when people say this is the worst game in the TW series and it's completely ruined it for them, etc. I tend to just ignore those threads.

I think it's a great game well worth the money, but we don't need to pretend that there is *nothing* wrong with it and jump all over anyone who brings forth bugs.

[PaulTa]

I remember a video that came out and made a big wave a while ago. It was this guy who filmed a bunch of cavalry charges into a sword unit, to show that the cavalry didn't charge properly into the flanks of the unit.

While watching the video, I remember seeing the cavalry always charge correctly. The cavalry unit was in good formation, facing the enemy unit, and charging, made contact with lances down, etc. His gripe wasn't that cavalry couldn't charge, just that they didn't do enough damage in the flanks.

So if this one guy can make a video where cavalry all charge without one hitch into an enemy formation, why is it that everyone who posts about these "crap cav charges" can't seem to get one good charge out of a hundred?


Well here are some problems. Your cavalry unit has to be facing the enemy before the charge is issued. The cavalry need to have a good unit cohesion before the charge. The charge should be over relatively flat terrain, with no trees or boulders in the way. There shouldn't be any other units in the way. There needs to be a certain distance for the cavalry to build up the trot and get into the charge.


Now personally, I've never had a problem with charges if I had at least three out of the five covered in the above. So the only conclusion I can draw is that people are playing this game hoping that cavalry charges are as terribly simple as they were in RTW. Unfortunately, things got a little more complex, and dare I say it, a bit more realistic.

[General Zhukov]

Then why are you on this thread?

It's fine if you dont' care about shields working, infantry charging correctly, just smile and nod and refrain from butting in to the threads of people who do care.

I think it's a great game well worth the money, but we don't need to pretend that there is *nothing* wrong with it and jump all over anyone who brings forth bugs.

This personal vendetta you've developed against me is becoming tiresome, Ulstan. I was working on a rebuttal to another attack on me in another thread when I spotted this one.

There is much smiling and shaking of the head I do in response to comments on these boards. Sometimes it is appropriate to come in and be the voice of restraint. Sometimes, someone has to be the one to say we should slow down before conclusions are jumped to. That can be annoying to many people. I'm going back to the other rebuttal now, and donning my Pavise shield just in case.

[Hurin_Rules]

You mean cavalry, right? Because I don't care whether other units charge as a tight unit.

Why not? Yes, I do care if infantry can't charge as a unit. They should be able to do this-- at least the better trained ones. They were able to do this in previous TW games. Yet in this one, I still constantly see the 'hero' phenomenon, and charges that would have made real medieval soldiers laugh... no, the problem is not just the cavalry charges. It's all charges.



And by the way, this is my first TW game, and I have I'm sure less experience on these engines than many others here. But might that be a virtue in a sense? I took to the new game, units, and systems on their own terms, without comparing them to previous efforts and relying on other preconceived notions. Fresh eyes and all that.

True. But perhaps you also haven't seen charges as they SHOULD work.

I'll try to get some screenshots later tonight...

[Ulstan]

So the only conclusion I can draw is that people are playing this game hoping that cavalry charges are as terribly simple as they were in RTW. Unfortunately, things got a little more complex, and dare I say it, a bit more realistic.


I'm not saying this describes Hurin, but I do like the fact that charges are harder to get off in M2TW. Cavalry, especially light cavalry, were far too powerful in RTW against even heavy armored infantrymen. I'm glad that, overall, cavalry is not as ridiculously deadly.

I'd be fine with the ultimate heavy cavalry being as powerful as it was in RTW, but not the light stuff :)

[Ulstan]

Sometimes, someone has to be the one to say we should slow down before conclusions are jumped to.

That's fine, but you didn't say "Slow down" you said "there is no problem. It's just you"

[General Zhukov]

Why not? Yes, I do care if infantry can't charge as a unit. They should be able to do this-- at least the better trained ones. They were able to do this in previous TW games. Yet in this one, I still constantly see the 'hero' phenomenon, and charges that would have made real medieval soldiers laugh... no, the problem is not just the cavalry charges. It's all charges.

Alright, let me condition my previous comment. I don't care if non-cavalry don't do formed charges, because those units get little to no benefit anyway from formed charges, in my experience. Do I care on a theoretical level if all units are doing what they are supposed to do? Yeah. But on a practical level, only cavalry get enough of a benefit from properly executed charges to be bothered about it.

[Carl]

One word of advise. try it on small unit sizes. It makes a MASSIVE diffrance, even compared to normal size as they can turn a lot more during the charge and still make it.

[PaulTa]

One word of advise. try it on small unit sizes. It makes a MASSIVE diffrance, even compared to normal size as they can turn a lot more during the charge and still make it.
That's a great point. I play on Normal unit sizes, so I don't have to worry about manuevering 60+ cavalry around a bunch of rocks and trees.

[Ulstan]

Aye. When posting about an anomly or bug, it is always wise to include the difficulty level and unit size you are seeing the problem on.

[Hurin_Rules]

Normal and Normal.

[Goofball]

First, there should not be obstructions between you and the target. A tree, or a single rock, is sufficient to spoil the attempt. Second, only try charges on flat or downhill terrain. Third, ensure that your cavalry travel in as much of a straight line as possible en route to the target; moving targets can cause pathing and formation problems.

And I guess what some of us are saying, and what you don't seem to grasp, is that cavalry charges should not be that difficult to pull off. Conditions should not have to be perfect. On a battlefield, conditions are never perfect.

I mean, come on...

"Right lads, 'at 'em! Tally-ho!"

"Um, sorry Sir Gawain, but there appears to be a slight upward hill between us and those filthy archers, not to mention a couple of small bushes and rocks. And the sneaky buggers are actually moving! The cheekiness of it!"

"Blimey! You're right, Sir Roger! Abort! Abort!"

[General Zhukov]

And I guess what some of us are saying, and what you don't seem to grasp, is that cavalry charges should not be that difficult to pull off...

Ironically, you seem to be the one who has problems grasping things, like the relatively simple maneuver of charging in this game. :laugh4:

[Slug For A Butt]

GZ No, you seem to be the one having difficulty grasping things, like why a cavalry charge requires miniscule micromanagement, most people are busy seeing what the rest of their army is doing.
I still maintain having cavalry on guard makes a huge difference, but you shouldn't have to do this.

[antisocialmunky]

I've seen this stuff too in RTW where about 20 guys peel off and run headlong into the enemy. The problem is specific to the engine and whatever they modified seems to have magnified this problem. From what I've read it seems ALOT more disruptive in MIITW. I haven't bought the game yet - not until atleast patch 1.2 - but has anyone tried ordering the infantry to run past the enemy unit until they're nearly touching and then charge them into the enemy? It seemed to work for RTW on certain units that would do that more frequently and the result was a little better than 20 guys running to their deaths.

BTW @Zhukov - Could you please stop speaking condescendingly to people? I really hope it's not your intent but it is getting annoying to read as I go through the recent bug threads. I'm not trying to be mean/flame or troll but the point still stands.

[General Zhukov]

GZ No, you seem to be the one having difficulty grasping things, like why a cavalry charge requires miniscule micromanagement, most people are busy seeing what the rest of their army is doing.

You and Goofball are a little off-topic. The OP wondered if it was impossible to charge. It is not. Moreover, using some basic generalship (you don't get to delegate authority and go watch a movie, sorry), I say again, basic generalship and common sense, charging can be a fun and useful addition to your commander's toolbox. Have confidence in yourself, and get ready for Success In War!

@antisocialmunky: I think you'll find that I don't get personal until someone else does. Plus I never get nasty. And by the way, did you like the content of any of those posts, or just felt like commenting on style?

[antisocialmunky]

You do make decent points, your style is stoic and obscenely poetic in one instance, but your tone leaves something to be desired.

Honestly, I find it annoying - and not the only one who does judging by people's posts - to be reading a borderline provacation such as:

"Seeing more and more of these threads pop up, and contrasting their complaints with the experiences of various experienced players on the boards, and my experiences, it has gradually become clear that the Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair."

or a blunt negative implication of someone's cognative ability:

"Ironically, you seem to be the one who has problems grasping things, like the relatively simple maneuver of charging in this game."

If you're going to publically dissent, veiled personal slights aren't the best way to get yourself taken seriously or liked. These are people and you have to take othere's feelings into account. You have value to add to discussions and it would be a shame to see those points lost through personal feelings.

Once against I'm not trying to be mean to you. But that being said, I'm not a mod and its not my job to tell people what to do and I shouldn't be cluttering up this thread with some sort of critique of another member. I'm just trying to be a good neighbor.

I won't distract anyone else with a continuation of something related to Zhukov.

[General Zhukov]

antisocialmunky, I thank you for that. You are certainly not an antisocial monkey in my book. I do want people to see that in the end all I want to do is help; a fact that can sometimes get lost. I will ponder your words. :bow:

[Slug For A Butt]

@ antisocialmunky, yes, thinly vieled slights and being condescending are GZ's favoured style of attack. I've noticed it too. But we all have our own ways, I'm a little too confrontational sometimes but I hope I don't offend anyone because it's just my way.

@GZ you are getting into semantics now, the OP wasn't saying it was impossible. He was making the point that it is dependant on too many factors and is maybe not appropriate for a real time battle. And I agree, there should be a little more leeway I think.

[Hurin_Rules]

GZ, while I respect your opinion, I do have to say you are somewhat sidetracking the thread with some borderline personal attacks. You have also mischaracterized the thread itself, viz., when you said:


You and Goofball are a little off-topic. The OP wondered if it was impossible to charge. It is not.

This is incorrect, even semantically speaking. While the thread title is 'impossible to charge?', the original post makes it clear that I was using this merely as a byline and in fact talking about charging 'in formation' and with effect.

I'm glad you're enjoying the game, but had you played the other games in the series you might be a bit more understanding with the problems we're having here. Charging was not such a problem in the earlier incarnations of TW.

Anyway, I'll try to put my cavalry in guard and charge, and then also click past the unit I'm charging at, to see if this helps.

Let me know if any of you figure out how to make charges more effective.

[napoleon526]

I just played a siege as the Scots. I busted a hole in the with culverins and marched my noble swordsmen through. I engaged the enemy in the city square, while bringing up a unit of Feudal knights. I sneaked the kinghts around the combat so that they were facing the rear of the enemy. They were lined up perfectly, with lances at the ready. I ordered the charge. The first rank of knights slowly trotted up into the ranks of the enemy...and stood there. :( :rage

[FrauGloer]

I just played a siege as the Scots. I busted a hole in the with culverins and marched my noble swordsmen through. I engaged the enemy in the city square, while bringing up a unit of Feudal knights. I sneaked the kinghts around the combat so that they were facing the rear of the enemy. They were lined up perfectly, with lances at the ready. I ordered the charge. The first rank of knights slowly trotted up into the ranks of the enemy...and stood there. :( :rage

Yeah, I've seen this. Pathfinding in general is plain bad inside cities, charging or not. What's most frustrating is that the AI can pull off perfect charges in cities even when their cavalry units (Generals most of the time) aren't in formation at all! :inquisitive:

To join in on the charge debate: I think the new charge system is both blessing and curse. In RTW, cavalry charges were over the top, and while they are still very powerful in M2TW, being harder to properly execute them gives them more of a balance. However, the micromanagement required to get the unit in formation and charge is just too complicated to be swiftly executed in a large battle with loads of units, unless you frequently use the "Pause" button. As this (to me at least) deducts from the real-time-feeling, I dislike pausing every few seconds to reorder my cavalry because they are too dumb to keep formation when trotting 30 feet.
What also bothers me is that, when they are formed up and ready to charge, my knights stop to lower their lances and then slowly begin to charge. The AI cavalry, on the other hand, does not stop to lower their lances and as a result is able to get more momentum out of the charge. I do know that this can be done manually by double-clicking when in charge range, but as I said, that's more micromanagement than is necessary.

[econ21]

GZ, while I respect your opinion, I do have to say you are somewhat sidetracking the thread with some borderline personal attacks.

There's some truth in that - I appreciate antisocialmonkey's intervention here.

On the substance of this thread, you are raising the same issue as a recent topic a couple of pages back. It may help:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76844

Personally, I don't mind that charges are harder to pull off - it strikes me as historically accurate. But I wish there was more clarity about the conditions that are necessary to get a good charge off. Players have identified a list of conditions that may help, but personally I am still vague over exactly which set is necessary and suffficient. If anyone wants to spell it out for me and there is a consensus on it, I will update the FAQ information on this.

[Lusted]

A good way to make charges easier to make, and happen more often is to change the stat_charge_distance for units. In my LTc mod i've got light cav set at 30, heavy cav at 25, infantry at 15 and pikemen at 10. This also helps remove the front line only charging issue.

[Orda Khan]

A good way to make charges easier to make, and happen more often is to change the stat_charge_distance for units. In my LTc mod i've got light cav set at 30, heavy cav at 25, infantry at 15 and pikemen at 10. This also helps remove the front line only charging issue.
Lusted,
Does this work effectively? The reason I ask is that a simple fix like this should surely have been spotted and implemented by CA

......Orda

[Lusted]

Lusted,
Does this work effectively? The reason I ask is that a simple fix like this should surely have been spotted and implemented by CA

Pretty effectively yes, or at least i've not had many problems with charging since implementing it. Im going to mention it to Pala the next time we have a convo.

[antisocialmunky]

Does it solve the reform issue of some units turning backwards?

[Lusted]

Does it solve the reform issue of some units turning backwards?

You mean some units turning backwards, pulling out and then charging again, or something else?

[General Zhukov]

Okay, can I get a do over then? Hopefully this post will result in more coming together and less gnashing of teeth.

Alright, first, it's clear to me that a single rock or bolder should not disrupt a charge. Actual soldiers would just skirt around it. But I don't think there's a fix for it. Unless CA tweaks the pathing issues next patch, we might have to deal with it. But we'll see.

Unlevel ground presents a bit of a problem for charging, at least for horses. Going uphill, gravity makes it harder for the horse to gather the momentum and speed needed for a devastating charge. So charging uphill shouldn't be impossible, but harder, by being more likely to become disordered. Going sideways on an incline makes it hard for the horses to maintain proper footing, and really difficult at fast speeds to stay close order and on target. Going downhill is kind of natural though, and actually builds more momemtum as gravity helps you. These factors apply to humans too, but to a lesser degree. So what does all the uneven ground stuff boil down to? That when not charging flat or downhill, the charge is more likely to become disordered and ulitmately less effective. Which is what I observe in game.

Again, I must recommend double click charges, because as the unit moves, stragglers are given the chance to catch back up to the line and much more often than not, a near-perfect formed charge will occur. Yes, units that are lagging will actually zoom forward to rejoin the formation. And as another member said, it is of course important to begin from an ordered state (though the unit will often sort out its formation anyway if it has time on the way to the target).

I hope that between (some) of my posts and the others, it is a little clearer what should be done to get better, more consistent charges. And of course there is good info in the major thread already linked to, named Getting Good Cavalry Charges. What I really wish is that people on the boards that I know know how to do charges would come in and contribute. But, they might have done so on the major thread on this topic and not want to repeat themselves. Or, they may not want to post in a "frustration" thread where they might draw fire for suggesting the game can work. The debate about how difficult it should be to do perfect charges is one that raises passions and will usually end in personal attacks. Those that find charging difficult tend to think it should be made simpler, while those that have a good grasp of it tend to think it should stay the way it is for "realism". I intended to just discuss how to do the charges as they do work, but foolishly allowed myself to get dragged into the opinion wars. Gonna' be more careful in the future.