Dispatches: Undercover Mosque

[ZombieFriedNuts]

the only link at the moment
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_method=full&objectid=18442715&siteid=94762-name_page.html

It was on 8:00 Channel 4 today it’s quite a scary depiction of radical Islam clerics in Britain.
They want to make Britain an Islamic (I was going to say republic but they don’t believe in that what is it called when religious leaders run a country.) and force everyone to be Islamic, they are really quite deluded.
Did anyone else see it

[Marshal Murat]

Theocracy is one republic led by religious leaders, kind like Iran (but not)

[Strike For The South]

And yall do nothing? Pathetic

[Redleg]

And yall do nothing? Pathetic

Kind of like what we in the United States do with the Mexican group that advocates the return of California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, and parts of Nevada, Utah and Colorado to Mexico.

Ignore it and grant the illegals ammensty.

[Strike For The South]

Kind of like what we in the United States do with the Mexican group that advocates the return of California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, and parts of Nevada, Utah and Colorado to Mexico.

Ignore it and grant the illegals ammensty.

Well its a problem with the entire western world really. These people are happy to use what we have given them agianst us. Something is being lost in translation

[KukriKhan]

Isn't the Mirror kind of the UK equivalent of the Nat'l Enquirer? Celeb stories, Poli scandals, sex romps and UFO sightings? If they've got undercover reporters monitoring mosques, I'd presume the gov't does too. That's not exactly "doing nothing".

On the other hand, once you subtract the undercover guys, I wonder how many actual devotees are attending services. Imams might be disappointed to learn they're preaching to the papers and the gov't and 10 old men.

[Tribesman]

From the article....
IN a dilapidated mosque, half a dozen awestruck young men listen to a preacher spell out his vision for Britain.

.....He certainly knows how to draw a big crowd .
:help: :help: :help: the muslims are coming to get you:hide:

[Watchman]

Well, lunatic fringe is lunatic fringe.

[Del Arroyo]

Yeah, except that the Islamic lunatic fringe has shown a consistent tendency towards aggressive, suicidal violence resulting in mass death of innocents.

[Watchman]

That much the better the loons are the fringe then.

[Strike For The South]

That much the better the loons are the fringe then.

How long will they be the fringe? We all saw what happend in France last year. When push comes to shoe 90% of the muslims will side with each other. Thats when the **** will hit the fan. Thats when the Inams will seize the moment. Its the same here with the illegal immagrants. We need to truly intergrate these people or kick them out. We cant keep turing a blind eye and acting like our diversty programs fix these suituations.

[Watchman]

And "integrate" means exactly what here ?

[Strike For The South]

And "integrate" means exactly what here ?

into western socitey. Womens rights and tolerance would be a start.

[Watchman]

That's not "exactly". That's the vague part.

[Pannonian]

How long will they be the fringe? We all saw what happend in France last year. When push comes to shoe 90% of the muslims will side with each other. Thats when the **** will hit the fan. Thats when the Inams will seize the moment. Its the same here with the illegal immagrants. We need to truly intergrate these people or kick them out. We cant keep turing a blind eye and acting like our diversty programs fix these suituations.
You'll probably find that we've got a firm eye on these loons. The thing about lunatic preachers is you know where they are. Keep track of his audiences, and you've got a decent database of potential firecrackers. Drive him away, and they go underground. We are currently working on integration as well, but from past experience it'll take around 10 years for the effects to show. It's not a case of one or the other - we're doing both.

[Strike For The South]

That's not "exactly". That's the vague part.

Well we cant keep the current status quo can we? Id start by dismantiling everything that sperartes along racil lines. No more Affirmitve Action no more black history month. Nothing that can be used as a flash point to create divison. Now this creates a whole nother slew of problems. So I really dont know what to do

[Watchman]

Now this creates a whole nother slew of problems. So I really dont know what to doPrecisely.

[Mooks]

Umm...If I was the goverment agent responsible for watching these wackos. Id make up some bull**** excuse to kick them out of the country.


I thought black history month was a joke...It's not serios is it?

[Strike For The South]

Umm...If I was the goverment agent responsible for watching these wackos. Id make up some bull**** excuse to kick them out of the country.


I thought black history month was a joke...It's not serios is it?

it is

[yesdachi]

How far do these people have to go before they are treasonous or at least guilty of sedition? Why not just put these troublemakers in the clink and remove them from causing dissent. There are some quotes in that article that sound like they are reason enough to bring up charges. Is it different because they are clerics? Or is the gov just allowing it to happen because any direct move would cause too many negative ramifications?

[Ignoramus]

Muslims do not intergrate that is a fact. You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but it does it exist.

Muslims concentrate themselves in one area, refuse to intergrate, gain a majority in the local council, and Islamisize everything. Recently here in Australia one of our local fast-food chains changed all their food to be halal complient. That offends me. As a Christian, I should not be forced to eat food that has been prepared in a Muslim way.

As you can also see from the outrage at the Pope's recent comments. All he did was quote a 14th century Byzantine emperor, and the Muslims go beserk. Come to think of it, they complain that we are vilifying them when we quote certain passages from the Koran that bid them to slay all the infidel.

They do not intergrate, they are violent(Islam is a violent religion, for all those who say that Islam is peaceful, go read the Koran and you'll see what a nice peaceful religion it is), and they are slowly taking over Western countries.

The sooner these people are kicked out of our countries, the better.

[PanzerJaeger]

My work is being done for me. :laugh4:

Its good to see some people have opened their eyes...



We need to truly intergrate these people or kick them out.

:yes:

[GoreBag]

Muslims concentrate themselves in one area, refuse to intergrate, gain a majority in the local council, and Islamisize everything. Recently here in Australia one of our local fast-food chains changed all their food to be halal complient. That offends me. As a Christian, I should not be forced to eat food that has been prepared in a Muslim way.

As a non-Christian, should I have to abide by laws funded upon Judeo-Christian values?

[lars573]

Muslims do not intergrate that is a fact. You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but it does it exist.

Muslims concentrate themselves in one area, refuse to intergrate, gain a majority in the local council, and Islamisize everything. Recently here in Australia one of our local fast-food chains changed all their food to be halal complient. That offends me. As a Christian, I should not be forced to eat food that has been prepared in a Muslim way.

As you can also see from the outrage at the Pope's recent comments. All he did was quote a 14th century Byzantine emperor, and the Muslims go beserk. Come to think of it, they complain that we are vilifying them when we quote certain passages from the Koran that bid them to slay all the infidel.

They do not intergrate, they are violent(Islam is a violent religion, for all those who say that Islam is peaceful, go read the Koran and you'll see what a nice peaceful religion it is), and they are slowly taking over Western countries.

The sooner these people are kicked out of our countries, the better.
I could do the same for the "peaceful" religion of Christianity. The judeo-christian god was originally an ill tempered war god don't forget.

[Navaros]

What's wrong with an Islamic Republic of Britain, that would be totally awesome.

I wish good luck to the Muslims who strive for that goal. Even if they don't meet it, at least they are standing up for morality and trying to do something good for society.

Certainly is a lot more respectable of a goal to turn Britain to Islam than it is to try to shove the infidel institution of democracy down the throats of Muslim nations (ie: War on Iraq).

[Brenus]

“What's wrong with an Islamic Republic of Britain,” : REPUBLIC.
Joke apart, France had a lost past with Muslim and still wait for the Islamist wave to come. The last Riots were not Islamist, excepted in media.
The loyalty of the Muslims to France was largely illustrated in all French Battle Fields with the Tiraillleurs, Tabors, Goumiers, Spahis and Chasseurs d’Afrique fighting along side the purely French units.

[Watchman]

Muslims do not intergrate that is a fact. You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but it does it exist.

Muslims concentrate themselves in one area, refuse to intergrate, gain a majority in the local council, and Islamisize everything. Recently here in Australia one of our local fast-food chains changed all their food to be halal complient. That offends me. As a Christian, I should not be forced to eat food that has been prepared in a Muslim way.

As you can also see from the outrage at the Pope's recent comments. All he did was quote a 14th century Byzantine emperor, and the Muslims go beserk. Come to think of it, they complain that we are vilifying them when we quote certain passages from the Koran that bid them to slay all the infidel.

They do not intergrate, they are violent(Islam is a violent religion, for all those who say that Islam is peaceful, go read the Koran and you'll see what a nice peaceful religion it is), and they are slowly taking over Western countries.

The sooner these people are kicked out of our countries, the better.I see a lot of venom, but not a shred of suggested solution that didn't boil down to naked xenophobia.

You make baby Jesus cry, you know that ?

[King Henry V]

Well we are yet to hear your great solution to the problem, Watchman.

[BDC]

Hating other people who are different is exactly what the Nazis did.

The xxx are coming! They will get you! Shoot them all!

[caravel]

Regardless of the attendance figures at the mosques, it does only take a few of these "zealots" to blow themselves up on a tube train after all. Numbers don't even come into it. Despite this it is a minority thing, and the Dispatches program really did make a lot of effort to blow everything out of proportion. The whole thing smacked of an undercover NF meeting, and this is because these people are nasty little extremist toe rags. Islam is the cover story they use to gain support from the impressionable youth. In reality they're simply racists and west haters.

Muslims do not intergrate that is a fact. You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but it does it exist.
They don't integrate. I've lived among them for many years. As to why they don't integrate I'm not sure. I'm not even sure as to why they need to integrate either. Sikhs and Hindus don't integrate much either, come to think of it neither do christians. They all seem to stick to their own communities. I work with a bigoted christian woman that considers herself far superior to her co-workers, and doesn't socialise with non christians.

Muslims concentrate themselves in one area, refuse to intergrate, gain a majority in the local council, and Islamisize everything. Recently here in Australia one of our local fast-food chains changed all their food to be halal complient. That offends me. As a Christian, I should not be forced to eat food that has been prepared in a Muslim way.
I suppose if they make up the majority in a certain district then they will probably vote for someone that represents their interests, i.e. another muslim. In the UK everyone notices those news stories about corrupt muslim MPs never mind the fact that they're all corrupt anyway, regardless of colour or creed.

As you can also see from the outrage at the Pope's recent comments. All he did was quote a 14th century Byzantine emperor, and the Muslims go beserk. Come to think of it, they complain that we are vilifying them when we quote certain passages from the Koran that bid them to slay all the infidel.
Yes but that wasn't every muslim in the world was it? It was a minority again, a minority that the media love to film and photograph and show you again and again burning effigies or calling for jihads.

They do not intergrate, they are violent(Islam is a violent religion, for all those who say that Islam is peaceful, go read the Koran and you'll see what a nice peaceful religion it is), and they are slowly taking over Western countries.
Read the bible and see much the same thing. Religion on the whole is a cancer on society. The biggest problem is interpretation.

The sooner these people are kicked out of our countries, the better.
I would prefer to export some chavs. :whip:

[English assassin]

On the other hand, once you subtract the undercover guys, I wonder how many actual devotees are attending services. Imams might be disappointed to learn they're preaching to the papers and the gov't and 10 old men.

:yes: IIRC a significant part of the Communist Party of Great Britain's funding and active members came from MI5.


Regardless of the attendance figures at the mosques, it does only take a few of these "zealots" to blow themselves up on a tube train after all. Numbers don't even come into it. Despite this it is a minority thing, and the Dispatches program really did make a lot of effort to blow everything out of proportion. The whole thing smacked of an undercover NF meeting, and this is because these people are nasty little extremist toe rags.

And without any disrespect to those who were killed or their relatives, it has to be said that blowing the tubes up did nothing whatsoever. Being blown up is a (minor) risk of modern life. Someone or other is ALWAYS blowing London up. :juggle2: I'm more worried about lunatic drivers.

The NF analogy is a good one. I couldn't care less about the NF either. I guess the difference is, when they screened that documentary on the BNP, there wasn't much danger that I as an ordinary member of the anglo saxon persuasion would have been looked at suspiciously in the street the next day. Whereas here we all are getting agitated about "muslims". I dare say a lot of ordinary muslims are having watercooler discussions today with their white colleagues in which they are having to explain that the people on the telly didn't represent mainstream muslim opinion.

Funny how I never have to repudiate the BNP.

Think about it chaps.

[Banquo's Ghost]

And without any disrespect to those who were killed or their relatives, it has to be said that blowing the tubes up did nothing whatsoever. Being blown up is a (minor) risk of modern life. Someone or other is ALWAYS blowing London up. :juggle2: I'm more worried about lunatic drivers.

The NF analogy is a good one. I couldn't care less about the NF either. I guess the difference is, when they screened that documentary on the BNP, there wasn't much danger that I as an ordinary member of the anglo saxon persuasion would have been looked at suspiciously in the street the next day. Whereas here we all are getting agitated about "muslims". I dare say a lot of ordinary muslims are having watercooler discussions today with their white colleagues in which they are having to explain that the people on the telly didn't represent mainstream muslim opinion.

Funny how I never have to repudiate the BNP.

Think about it chaps.

I'm afraid I am going to have to ban you from the Backroom for the wilful spouting of outrageous good sense and intelligent reflection.

What are you trying to do, put me out of business?

:wink3: :2thumbsup:

[Watchman]

Well we are yet to hear your great solution to the problem, Watchman.Never claimed I had one. But I'm not the one advocating the deportation of those nasty foreigners and their Godless habits either, now am I ?

No solution beats a patently wrong one any day.

[English assassin]

I'm afraid I am going to have to ban you from the Backroom for the wilful spouting of outrageous good sense and intelligent reflection.

What are you trying to do, put me out of business?

So anyway, should all guns be banned, or only those belonging to creationists? :hide:

[Banquo's Ghost]

So anyway, should all guns be banned, or only those belonging to creationists? :hide:

:jumping:

OK, you can stay.

It's now Kukri's watch...:bounce:

[Dâriûsh]

From the article:


Women, too, are inferior in Abu Usamah's eyes. He tells his audience: "Allah has created the woman - even if she gets a PhD - deficient. Her intellect is incomplete, deficient. She may be suffering from hormones that will make her emotional. It takes two witnesses of a woman to equal the one witness of the man."

A great big load of manure from this baboon. You would be tempted to laugh at him if it wasn’t for the fact that he has an audience. Demagogues like this (convert) lunatic thrive on audiences of likeminded fools, even if it’s a small audience. And the best demagogues, of course, are trained and financed by the most staunch and noble ally in the war on terror.


I’m not surprised though. When you pander to the lowest common denominator you’re bound to get a following.


Oh, and I love this one:


Muslims do not intergrate that is a fact. You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but it does it exist.

---

They do not intergrate, they are violent(Islam is a violent religion, for all those who say that Islam is peaceful, go read the Koran and you'll see what a nice peaceful religion it is), and they are slowly taking over Western countries. ~:rolleyes: I eat pork, and I have a mild temper.

I do, however, still get turned away at night clubs, because I’m “one of them”. A shame, as I do enjoy integrating with the clubbing community.


The sooner these people are kicked out of our countries, the better. If you narrowed it down to the demagogues with Saudi dollars, I’m all for it.

[ZombieFriedNuts]

Isn't the Mirror kind of the UK equivalent of the Nat'l Enquirer? Celeb stories, Poli scandals, sex romps and UFO sightings? If they've got undercover reporters monitoring mosques, I'd presume the gov't does too. That's not exactly "doing nothing".

Yes its exactly like that but it was the only link at the time there is probably a better one by now.
It was the tv program I was wandering about the clerics, they talking about who wear taking about hitting 10 year old girls for not wearing the hijab (head to tow in black), saying paedophilia is ok because the prophet mohammed married a 10 year old girl, blowing up Indian business killing Jews and all other non-Muslims, they where also taking about brainwashing at one point.
And thanks for that Marshal Murat I thought it was something like that but it wouldn’t be a republic they don’t believe in that sort of nonsense apparently,

[King Henry V]

No solution beats a patently wrong one any day.
That would depend on the consequences of a lack of a solution.

[Watchman]

The Patently Wrong one would turn out worse per definition.

[Kralizec]

Well Banquo, I hope it's now apparent why I said in another thread why Saudi-financed mosques are "mildly discomforting".

I don't mind the mainstay of the muslim population, if they accept the law and mastered the language of the land it's good enough for me. When individuals start preaching garbage like in the article mentioned, it's open season. Deport them whenever legally possible.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well Banquo, I hope it's now apparent why I said in another thread why Saudi-financed mosques are "mildly discomforting".

I don't mind the mainstay of the muslim population, if they accept the law and mastered the language of the land it's good enough for me. When individuals start preaching garbage like in the article mentioned, it's open season. Deport if legally possible, imprison otherwise.

There's rabble rousing nutters all over the place. I don't see why the few Muslim ones deserve to be singled out for "special treatment".

Personally, I'd like to see all the racist bigots newly grouped in the European Parliament (as I posted in another thread) put in a deep dark mine and concreted over.

However, because I value freedom of speech, diversity and the rule of law more, I recognise that I have to put up with their views.

When any of these people break the law and are properly convicted in a court of law, then one can impose punishment, ideally stringent. Whilst they are merely a bunch of fools embarrassing themselves and the three half-wits that turn up to listen, I'm not worried, let alone discomforted. As others have noted nine-tenths of their audience are probably spooks or journalists.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It occurs to me that the main test of integration is whether you identify more with where you "come from" or where you are.

The "Cricket Test" while often held up as a xenophobic upper-class piece of drival is actually a pretty clever way of expressing it. If you are of Indian decent but were born in this country shouldn't you support the team that were born in the same country, at least when they play each other?

As to an "Islamic Republic" in Britain, it won't ever happen, there's already a backlash and multi-culturalism has been binned. Long before any minoriety group become truely significant the British will drive them out, litterally.

Right now the English, including myself, are willing to put up with quite a lot but any remotely serious rumblings of an Islamic state would put a lot of us, probably myself included, on the litteral warpath.

I will fight tooth and nail to protect my way of life, but I'd much rather not have to.

A new religious war in Europe is becomming one of my reccuring nightmares.

[Adrian II]

We all saw what happened in France last year.We saw Muslim leaders and youths siding with the French government against home-grown terrorism, Iraqi kidnappers and anti-Israeli hate propaganda from Syria. Is that what you mean?

Probably not.

I guess it depends on what tv channel 'we all' tune in to. :inquisitive:

[Tribesman]

The "Cricket Test" while often held up as a xenophobic upper-class piece of drival is actually a pretty clever way of expressing it. If you are of Indian decent but were born in this country shouldn't you support the team that were born in the same country, at least when they play each other?

no that test fails miserably because England are crap at cricket .:laugh4:
How many of the plastics down the pub do you see shouting for Ireland against England in the Rugby ?

[King Henry V]

The Patently Wrong one would turn out worse per definition.
If severe civil disturbance were to occur, then I fail to see how the deportation of seditious members of a group would be a worse alternative.

[Strike For The South]

We saw Muslim leaders and youths siding with the French government against home-grown terrorism, Iraqi kidnappers and anti-Israeli hate propaganda from Syria. Is that what you mean?

Probably not.

I guess it depends on what tv channel 'we all' tune in to. :inquisitive:

That story didnt reach us across the pond

[Kralizec]

There's rabble rousing nutters all over the place. I don't see why the few Muslim ones deserve to be singled out for "special treatment".

Personally, I'd like to see all the racist bigots newly grouped in the European Parliament (as I posted in another thread) put in a deep dark mine and concreted over.

However, because I value freedom of speech, diversity and the rule of law more, I recognise that I have to put up with their views.

When any of these people break the law and are properly convicted in a court of law, then one can impose punishment, ideally stringent. Whilst they are merely a bunch of fools embarrassing themselves and the three half-wits that turn up to listen, I'm not worried, let alone discomforted. As others have noted nine-tenths of their audience are probably spooks or journalists.

I don't think that outside funding (including from S.A.) should be refused to mosques or islamic organisations at all times, however the source would have to be reviewed.

I too, recognise the value of free speech - if one was to say he would like to see Sharia law implemented in my country, that's part of his right. However if he says that muslims should implement it by overthrowing the existing laws and state...

Muslims must grow in strength... then take over.

This quote is however vague, possibly on purpose. (and it's of course possible that Bobby deliberately replaced part of the text with those dots to suggest) he could argue in court that he meant that a majority of muslims should be converted and then implement their ideas via democracy. Not much room for a criminal charge here.
Still, it's mildly discomforting.

[Blodrast]

Wasn't there an anti-hate speech law passed in the UK like, last year or so ? :inquisitive:
I can't remember precisely, but I was pretty sure it was at least proposed... didn't it pass ?

[Kralizec]

I think it was revised not to long ago, and a government spokesman said they might do it again because some BNP chiefs weren't found guilty in trial :inquisitive:

[Samurai Waki]

Edit: Douple Post.

[Samurai Waki]

Personally I'm far more afraid of the Neo-Nazi's, the Christian Fundamentalists, and the Klu Klux Klan than I am of the Muslims, who seem rather complacent and don't want to be hassled by the government. They keep a low profile, in hopes that eventually people will forget about them, but in fact it just seems to make people more suspicious. Islam needs to open up a little bit and be less reserved, if you show someone a monster really isn't hiding in the closet, people will tend to believe you.

I've been called a Kek and a Dirty Jew by a few people before... and I'm German-Irish Catholic. :laugh4:

[Crazed Rabbit]

A depressing - though not too surprising - investigation into what is being preached at the major mosques of Britain:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24018_Dispatches-_Undercover_Mosque&only

Part I 7:35-
"By the age of ten it becomes an obligation of us to force her to wear the hijab. And if she doesn't wear hijab we hit her"

I'm sure that doesn't mean any women in Britain are actually being forced to wear it, that it is 'their own choice' to completely cover themselves and we're all just intolerant racists if we say it shouldn't be worn in western society :rolleyes:

CR

[Tribesman]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Wow Rabbit , you managed to miss a whole two page topic on this.
A depressing - though not too surprising - occurance~;)

[Crazed Rabbit]

I wanted to start a new thread with the actual video, thank you very much.

Anyone - perhaps those who insist all Muslims are peaceful and don't want to bother us - want to comment on this? (And not some useless drivel, unrelated to the topic or actual discussion, like what tribesy posted (A depressing - though not at all surprising - occurance ~;p))

The preachers in this video want to make England into an Islamic state, to prosecute unbelievers and wage jihad on others. What is Britain going to do?

CR

[Scurvy]

I wanted to start a new thread with the actual video, thank you very much.

Anyone - perhaps those who insist all Muslims are peaceful and don't want to bother us - want to comment on this?


I couldnt get the vid to work, but i dont think anyone would claim "all muslims" are peaceful, its only a very small minority in question

--> prob best to stick to original thread....

:2thumbsup:

[Watchman]

Anyone - perhaps those who insist all Muslims are peaceful and don't want to bother us - want to comment on this?I prefer to leave the crude generalizations to your side, sir. ~;p

Besides, a certain quota of jerks is a statistical inevitability.

...this thread is redunant, you know ?

[Watchman]

If severe civil disturbance were to occur, then I fail to see how the deportation of seditious members of a group would be a worse alternative.You may have noted the original post I was referring to did not have the conditional you put in.

[GoreBag]

That story didnt reach us across the pond

HAHA! And that's where 'we all' live!

[Mooks]

Seems you guys have a cancer in your country.

[PanzerJaeger]

It is a particularly sad satiation when the enemy can prosper and become more powerful within your own borders and the leadership is too weak to do anything about it. :no:

[Navaros]

"Tolerance" is not an Islamic concept, nor should it be.

[English assassin]

"Tolerance" is not an Islamic concept, nor should it be.

Wow, Nav, you are an expert on the Qur'an and Hadith as well as the Bible, eh?



It occurs to me that the main test of integration is whether you identify more with where you "come from" or where you are.

Pah. You know, maybe we really do need a debate on integration and identity in this country. Intergration into what, I would like to know? As I once (rather amusingly, I thought at the time) remarked at a candidate selection event, the trouble with "British values" is they are never the values of any Briton I know. (Not entirely surprisingly I wasn't selected, oh, this flippancy is a curse I can tell you. I think they chose a skinhead who had a bull terrier in a union jack waistcoat.)

How do you identity yourself? Depending on the circumstances I might identify as a father, a wage slave/member of the oppressing capitalist classes (according to taste), biker, person with an interest in classical history, person from Kent (Hurrah), Englishman, and maybe even British (those last three certainly in that order). And so on. And that is someone borne and bred here who gets misty eyed at the sight of a Spitfire. (Aircraft. Although also the beer.)

Am I integrated?


It is a particularly sad satiation when the enemy can prosper and become more powerful within your own borders and the leadership is too weak to do anything about it

:wall:

[rory_20_uk]

Whilst I agree that specifying a list of criteria is not sensible, there are some "minimum requirements" that could be found.


Not wanting to destroy the UK
Understanding of English
Pride in / desire to be part of adopted country
No customs / beliefs that prevent interaction in society or prevent others from interacting.


There. Not that tough. Of course some are therefore more likely to be accepted than others, but where does it say that we have to alter everything to suit everyone else? And there are probably many that I've missed off, but they can be added. And yes, there are many in this country who might have been born here that don't fit the criteria. Well, they are free to leave and renounce themselves as subjects as soon as they want.

So I'm afraid preaching terrorism for any reason against the UK isn't allowed. Nor is female mutilation, or going along the street wearing a bone through one's nose and a pipe in the place of trousers. Bilingual is fine, as is tri or whatever. But a basic grasp of english is required - and that means the ability to express complex thoughts, not at the level of understanding 5 words.

Activities that are acceptable at home are not neccecarily allowed here. Preventing one's partner from doing what they want is unlawful. People should be aware of this, and not come if they can not abide their partner's having equal rights.

~:smoking:

[caravel]

Well I for one am most certainly not integrated. I can't wait to get out of the place. I am totally sick of this government and how this country has turned out.

Integration is a totally flawed idea. I'm not sure who though that one up at all. The more diverse the culture the less likely they are to integrate to any level. If for example a man travels into the UK from a country where he had 6 wives aged between 8 and 30, he will only be able to bring "one of" his wives, as the home office states. Is he "integrating" or being forced to integrate? If the, adult, wife that he does bring is then treated as a second class citizen, then clearly he's not "integrating". How does the government cause him to "integrate"? If he pretends to be "integrating" but isn't, what do they do then?

It's ridiculous really. These people have their own customs, beliefs and languages. All of this integration rubbish that is being spouted by blair and his cronies is unworkable. Either minorities are accepted as they are or not accepted at all. Among themselves they will always speak in their own language. When I walk into a shop I hear the woman saying to the man something in urdu or another indian language. These people always have a "grave" expression. This is simply a cultural thing. When they are doing business they look grave, I'm not sure why, but I've noticed it a lot. They could be saying, if I was extremely paranoid:

"oh ******, another infidel, not to worry the jihad will sort him out soon, give him the most rotten spuds we have and shortchange the ********"

Or more likely

"you serve this gentleman, I need to order the potatoes"

I have lost count of the number of people that are offended by immigrants or second/third generation immigrants, from asia in particular, speaking in a foreign language. I have seen people on public transport visibly annoyed. On the flip side I have seen interested glances at people speaking in e.g. german, french or italian. They are not met with any hostility or annoyance. Likewise I have never been given any funny looks for speaking spanish in public, which I do frequently when with my wife.

This is all about conditioning, and people will react to what they see as an asian (in their eyes possibly an asylum seeker living in a ghetto, freeloading off the state and going to extremist mosques to in his spare time) who is speaking in their own language and obviously not "integrating" at all and doesn't want to, more so than a European that they assume to be a tourist or someone that works and can probably also speak fluent english anyway. The tourist is probably a traveller or has a good job, anyway they're to be admired.

I'm afraid that the media is doing a great job demonising these people.

[Scurvy]

I'm afraid that the media is doing a great job demonising these people.

:yes:

[caravel]

To be honest the dispatches program was more like "extremisms naughtiest blunders" than an NF meeting. I imagine that an NF meeting would be slightly, just slightly, more sinister.

[King Henry V]

Wow, Nav, you are an expert on the Qur'an and Hadith as well as the Bible, eh?

Gaging from Navaros' opinions on other threads, I believe he is Muslim rather than Christian.

[Samurai Waki]

I really, truthfully, and honestly think Navaros is grabbing sticks out of thin air.

Pop-Up books generally don't tell the whole story. And ones Opinion shouldn't be based off them.

[Vladimir]

I'm afraid that the media is doing a great job demonising these people.

It's hard to see why one of the leftmost television stations, those who embrace "tolerance" and "diversity", would try to demonize them. Maybe the story's real. :idea2:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think the radicals are there and loud, I don't think they constitute a majoriety but I also think they aren't integrating.

As a Christian I find Navros' beliefs inconsitant, hypocritic, shallaw and quite frankly down right insulting.

[Lemur]

There's a 6-part expose on radial preachers in Britain. First on can be viewed here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&eurl=). I find the video far more impressive than the article.

[Tribesman]

Gaging from Navaros' opinions on other threads, I believe he is Muslim rather than Christian.

If he is then he is of the Wahhabi flavour.......Tolerance" is not an Islamic concept, nor should it be. :no:
Islam like Christianity comes in many flavours .


It's hard to see why one of the leftmost television stations, those who embrace "tolerance" and "diversity", would try to demonize them. Maybe the story's real.
The story is real , there are nuts out there , it has done many programs on nuts , be they racist nuts , "religeous" nuts , seperatist nuts or animal rights nuts .
Is it hard to see why a broadcaster who embraces "tolerance and diversity" makes programs about nuts who oppose tolerance ?


Seems you guys have a cancer in your country.
Look on the bright side , several of the recorded statements by the convert fruitcake in the program violate laws they have in Britain , they can jail him and then deport him , or just deport him . Back to America :beam:

[Slyspy]

Whilst I agree that specifying a list of criteria is not sensible, there are some "minimum requirements" that could be found.


Not wanting to destroy the UK
Understanding of English
Pride in / desire to be part of adopted country
No customs / beliefs that prevent interaction in society or prevent others from interacting.



I know Englishmen who only meet one of those criteria.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That would be 1, correct, or 2?

That's another problem we need to address, a lot of it comes from the drive for multiculturalism and us integrating with them.

[rory_20_uk]

English people that can't make those 4 criteria are free to leave. Obviously they're not happy to be here, so why stay?

~:smoking:

[BDC]

English people that can't make those 4 criteria are free to leave. Obviously they're not happy to be here, so why stay?

~:smoking:
Who would want them?

[rory_20_uk]

Very good point. In the EU they can go anywhere they want and set up shop. If their ideal is a country where they get more money for doing nothing I hear that Denmark has the highest average taxes in the world, so they could start off by going there.

~:smoking:

[Watchman]

Moving isn't free you know. Even inside the same city. It puzzles me the "why don't you leave then?" crowd, of whatever persuasion, so readily forgets this detail.

The Swedes probably have the best social security system around BTW. But it's not unconditional either.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No, moving isn't free but just because someone feels they made a mistake in coming here/it wasn't what they expected doesn't mean that we should bend over backwards to accomidate them.

[Watchman]

Did you ever, anyway ?

[Geoffrey S]

That would be 1, correct, or 2?
3

It is a particularly sad satiation when the enemy can prosper and become more powerful within your own borders and the leadership is too weak to do anything about it.
...to which I present this...

Right now the English, including myself, are willing to put up with quite a lot but any remotely serious rumblings of an Islamic state would put a lot of us, probably myself included, on the litteral warpath.

I will fight tooth and nail to protect my way of life, but I'd much rather not have to.
Think about it. There are problems, there are tensions, but there isn't the remotest chance that our way of life is threatened. Most people are bright enough to realise that the troublesome elements are a minority and are to be found on all sides of politics. And if things do get out of hand, the minority can be handled.

This doesn't apply only to immigrants, but also to the more reactionary aspects in a country.

What is an issue is the lack of serious dialogue. Ignoring minority groups is bad, actively attacking minorities is counterproductive; if anything the opening of a dialogue with the more extreme sides of left-wing and enviromental politics, and the resulting assimilation into normal political practices in the '70s and '80s, should be a model situation for the assimilation of minorities into the politlcal mainstream.

[Fragony]

Aren't these guys peaches, shame about the multicultists drive to please them. Just kick these foamboys out of the country and close these mosks, how hard can it be. Well actually it's very hard with all these usefull idiots protecting them, live the dream.

[Watchman]

...and close these mosks, how hard can it be....and we have a winner for the Dunce Hat.
:dunce:
Did you know, few things crystallize group and cultural identities previously vague and diffuse enough to have little practical meaning as rapidly as someone else starting to restrict them ? A couple of empires tore themselves apart that way about a century back you know, and they weren't the first ones.

Nobody's really going to care about a couple of spooky preachers, but you start messing with the actual buildings and symbols of worship in a climate like the current one and you'll do much of those zealots' work for them. Pretty much quaranteed, but if they mail you thank-you packages I'd advise against opening them.

[Fragony]

Yeah we might just push the fundies away. Exactly what is there to diffuse, absolutily nothing. If such a thing as moderate islam existed, the muslims would thank us for closing down hatebarracks.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Did you ever, anyway ?

Schools where you learn the Koran instead of English?

Look how long it took to get Abu Hamza prosecuted. The English are utterly terrified of being called racists, well the politicians are.

Geoff: You know people actually plotting to destroy the UK?

[rory_20_uk]

Irrigardless of what problems are currently in the UK, restricting entrance to those who are likely to be a problem will lessen the risk in the future. And this comment applies to all genders, colours and creeds. I'm much happier with moderate Muslims than clinic-bombing Christians.

~:smoking:

[Geoffrey S]

Geoff: You know people actually plotting to destroy the UK?
Yes. A minimal fringe, one which can be damaging but is still manageable without hysterics and certainly not one which should dominate our views of the minority as a whole.

As you said, were such people to become a real threat to the UK, or pretty much any other western country, there is no way the general population would give them even a chance of success.

[Tribesman]

If such a thing as moderate islam existed
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Fragony you never fail to let yourself down do you :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
So of the 10 major branches of Islam (or some of the minor ones) none are of the moderate flavour in your "all Muslims are extremist fundamentalists" mind .:dizzy2:


Irrigardless of what problems are currently in the UK, restricting entrance to those who are likely to be a problem will lessen the risk in the future. And this comment applies to all genders, colours and creeds. I'm much happier with moderate Muslims than clinic-bombing Christians.

Yep , but how do you restrict entrance for those that are British(in your case) ?
Unhappy youngsters with a chip on their shoulders about their country , politicians , religeon , ethnicity ...flow to extremism , be it religeous , ethnic or political extremism .
Can you spot the poster in this topic who is a prime example of embracing extremism because he doesn't like the way his country is being run ?

[Fragony]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Fragony you never fail to let yourself down do you :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
So of the 10 major branches of Islam (or some of the minor ones) none are of the moderate flavour in your "all Muslims are extremist fundamentalists" mind .:dizzy2:

Moderate muslims yes, moderate islam no. A moderate muslim is someone who doesn't follow islam to the letter no?

[Tribesman]

Moderate muslims yes, moderate islam no. A moderate muslim is someone who doesn't follow islam to the letter no?

Nope . Islam like Christianity or Judaism comes in many flavours .

Like Christianity or Judaism each flavour has distinct interpretations of what following scripture to the letter is and which letter means what .

[Fragony]

to the letter

indeed, to the letter. I'd rather learn about it from people that know what they are talking about by the way, like arabist prof. dr. J.J.G. Jansen or Afshin Ellian. All versions include the jihad, and yes jihad is actually war against the infidels, despite all the wooliness about personal growth and other nonsense.

edit, interesting article for your enjoyment

http://www.humanistischverbond.nl/opinie/constandselezing2006.html

Imho relevant for this thread.

[Ignoramus]

The Koran says kill the infidel. Now, tell me how else can this be interpreted other than: Kill all the people who are not Muslims. Hardly a nice tolerant and peaceful religion eh?

Oh, and I fear that you can't battle the Islamic minorities. In France, there are 6 million Muslims; approximately 10% of the population. When you consider the havoc, chaos, and destruction that one million Muslim youths did in over 200 French cities, I think you can hardly ignore them.

The fact is, they are out-growing the non-Muslims by immigration. The birth rate in Scotland is 1.1%. Now tell me how that can compete with all these foreign immigrants.

I really hate how Western cultures are losing their identity. Where will the Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Norman culture be in 50 years time? Where will the French culture be? We will all be islamised and Arabised before we know it.

[BDC]

The Koran says kill the infidel. Now, tell me how else can this be interpreted other than: Kill all the people who are not Muslims. Hardly a nice tolerant and peaceful religion eh?

Oh, and I fear that you can't battle the Islamic minorities. In France, there are 6 million Muslims; approximately 10% of the population. When you consider the havoc, chaos, and destruction that one million Muslim youths did in over 200 French cities, I think you can hardly ignore them.

The fact is, they are out-growing the non-Muslims by immigration. The birth rate in Scotland is 1.1%. Now tell me how that can compete with all these foreign immigrants.

I really hate how Western cultures are losing their identity. Where will the Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Norman culture be in 50 years time? Where will the French culture be? We will all be islamised and Arabised before we know it.
You scare me. That's just racist, xenophobic nonsense.

[Tribesman]

indeed, to the letter. I'd rather learn about it from people that know what they are talking about by the way, like arabist prof. dr. J.J.G. Jansen
Ah I see , so he wouldn't talk about different wings of Islam , especially those who will focus their interpretations of small details that fit their particular religeo/politco ideology instead of following the broader tradition of interpretation of their scripture .



J. Jansen - I follow more or less the Fundamentalism Project in Chicago. It accepted the term to indicate those wings of Islamic movements that are ready to use force to reach their aims. Not all terrorists are fundamentalists, not all fundamentalists are terrorists. As a rule, fundamentalists have selected a small number of points from their much broader tradition.


So you were saying something Frag were you , or is it the sound of silence echoing through the void .

You really must try harder , posting links in Dutch will not make it harder to rip your claims apart , you should know that by now :whip:


The Koran says kill the infidel. Now, tell me how else can this be interpreted other than: Kill all the people who are not Muslims. Hardly a nice tolerant and peaceful religion eh?

And the bible says kill them all without mercy , so your point is completely invalid .
So ignoramus (very apt) since the Qur'an says respect and be friends with those peoples who rightously follow the Torah or Bible then where is your out of context assumption ?
Dangling in the wind I believe is an appropriate term .
You have managed to do exactly what the fundamentalist nutters do , take a passage with no referance to the context or other passages on the subject and say "this is the truth to the letter" .:no:
Rather silly of you .:thumbsdown:

[Fragony]

So you were saying something Frag were you , or is it the sound of silence echoing through the void .

You really must try harder , posting links in Dutch will not make it harder to rip your claims apart , you should know that by now :whip:


Hmmm, usually a lot of noise before the inevitable silence when I post links, have yet to see you rip any of my points apart, ever, I just see the excessive smiley-usage that goes so well with whiskey. This article isn't relevant for any claim I made but it does contribute to the topic, and since you understand dutch it would be cruel to deny you a different point of view when it's so easily provided, just a click away.

[Tribesman]

Hmmm, usually a lot of noise before the inevitable silence when I post links, have yet to see you rip any of my points apart, ever, I just see the excessive smiley-usage that goes so well with whiskey.
Ah I see .
So when you name someone who is an expert on the subject and whose views you believe back up your thoughts .
Then that expert is quoted not backing up your views you strangely do not consider it a demonstration that you are clearly shown to be talking rubbish .

Interesting concept you have there Frag .
Have you invented a new name for that concept ?
Bollox might be an appropriate name for it :yes:

[Fragony]

Bollox might be an appropriate name for it :yes:

That one was sadly allready taken.

oh and,


This article isn't relevant for any claim I made but it does contribute to the topic

Seems obvious enough to me.

[Scurvy]

The Koran says kill the infidel. Now, tell me how else can this be interpreted other than: Kill all the people who are not Muslims. Hardly a nice tolerant and peaceful religion eh?

Islam is a fundamentally peaceful religion, like all religions some of the holy text can be interpeted, or in the case of the Koran even give conflicting messages (as does the bible)


Oh, and I fear that you can't battle the Islamic minorities. In France, there are 6 million Muslims; approximately 10% of the population. When you consider the havoc, chaos, and destruction that one million Muslim youths did in over 200 French cities, I think you can hardly ignore them.

The fact is, they are out-growing the non-Muslims by immigration. The birth rate in Scotland is 1.1%. Now tell me how that can compete with all these foreign immigrants.

basically what BDC said, the riots in france were not entirely caused by muslims, and it certainly wasnt only muslim youths who did the damage (although i know very little about all that) The bit abaout Scotland is crazy, especially as the as there is a very small muslim group in Scotland who are incredibly peaceful etc...



I really hate how Western cultures are losing their identity. Where will the Anglo-Saxon/Anglo-Norman culture be in 50 years time? Where will the French culture be? We will all be islamised and Arabised before we know it.

whats so important about culture? "losing identity" --> if that counts as the colour of your skin and the religious practice you follow, or even the food you eat, then surely having more different types of food to eat, having more openess and understanding of other religions is a good thing.

I also don't belive we will become Arabised.. the process works both ways, and the majority of muslims who migrate become slightly westernised, its a compromise..


Moderate muslims yes, moderate islam no. A moderate muslim is someone who doesn't follow islam to the letter no?

so you can have moderate christians, but not moderate christianity? :2thumbsup:

[Blodrast]

whats so important about culture?

You're joking, right ? I think you need to think about that one a bit more.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Islam is a fundamentally peaceful religion, like all religions some of the holy text can be interpeted, or in the case of the Koran even give conflicting messages (as does the bible)

This I dissagree with Islam is not a peaceful religion, it is a practical one. The basic message is:

Try to get along but if you can't and you're going to fight a war then don't do it by halves.

Which seems perfectly reasonable, really, the same applies to the Tirah.


so you can have moderate christians, but not moderate christianity? :2thumbsup:

Homosexuality is right out as far as the Bible is concerned. If the Bible defines Christianity then your statement is correct.

[Randarkmaan]

Wow, it's an interesting phenemenon that whenever something that has anything to do with Islam is brought up some chap comes over and sort of calls out for the "elimination of all infidels". And also I happen to find Navaros's statements to be less disturbing (actually a lot less disturbing) than the neo-crusaders who use much the same thinking as the participants of the German crusade: "Why should we travel thousands of miles to fight the infidels in the holy land when there already are infidels (jews) a few miles from where they lived" Then they went out and killed, converted and drove many infidels from their homes.
I have to agree with many others here (Banquo, English Assassin, Tribesman and others) that the number of Muslims in Western countries who are accessible to these... preachers probably is very small, well at least concerning those I have met, who don't seem to harbor any such thoughts and except having darker skin and hair are not very different from us (for better or for worse). Which also reminds me that during christmas we had an "Advent calendar" (we basically buy a bunch of stuff and put it and a box and then we have a lottery each day to see who gets something) and one of the guys who were in charge of this was a muslim, how you wish to interpret that I don't know, but it seems he was not bothered by doing something associated with Christianity.


I also don't belive we will become Arabised.. the process works both ways, and the majority of muslims who migrate become slightly westernised, its a compromise..

I believe you there, and I've seen it at work, as many others of you probably have, for an example hearing immigrants use Norwegian (or English or Dutch, depending on where they live of couse) expressions ("faen altså") when speaking Turkish (or Arabic or Urdu, whatever)

Anyway, I think that what should be a top priority is to find some sort of way to make Immigrants and ... "natives" (? don't know what to call it as a general terms) get along. Which could be through rather subtle things like the teaching of history or other things, making the history taught at school more international for an example. And not use the religion subject to basically work our way through the bible as we did some times, which is a reason for me knowing the basics of it even though I am not a Christian nor having ever read it, the other were not dealt with nearly as much. Though this may be different in many schools and countries and vary with your teacher.

[Pannonian]

Islam is a fundamentally peaceful religion, like all religions some of the holy text can be interpeted, or in the case of the Koran even give conflicting messages (as does the bible)

One wonders if there was the same rhetoric about the clash of civilisations regarding the Chinese around the time of the Boxer rebellion. If that episode is any guide, there will always be reaction against imperialism, and that reaction will often take on the garb of traditionalism, as opposed to the modernity that sees their country exploited by the west. Step back a little, give them time and space to adjust, free of obvious western intrusions, and they will find their own way to the modern world as China has. That's why neoconservatism is so idiotic, aiming to do all the wrong things.

At home, on a fundamental level we should demand that non-natives (the term describing everyone who do not themselves feel fully British) should respect the traditional host-guest relationship. The guest is accorded certain benefits, such as the ability (not right) to be themselves, and respect as individuals and as a group from the host, but the host has the ultimate say on what is acceptable. If the guest argues with this last point, they can go and find themselves another country to live in. That should be the overall drive of policy.

On a lower level, we should allow these lunatic preachers to remain, but keep tabs on their audiences. In the current climate, there may be troublemakers whatever we do, so these clerics help to concentrate them and let us know where we can find them. That's if they can find an audience. If not, they'll be alienating the majority of Muslims while we conspicuously keep our hands clean. We win either way, and if we need to, existing laws will allow us to deport them on charges of inciting violence (which there'll be plenty of evidence for, thanks to our surveillance). There is no need to take radical action right now, which will most likely be counter-productive.

[Duke of Gloucester]

At home, on a fundamental level we should demand that non-natives (the term describing everyone who do not themselves feel fully British) should respect the traditional host-guest relationship.

Very interesting phrase. If I, as an immigrant, or descended from immigrants don't feel fully British, whose fault is that? Is it mine for not wanting to integrate, or has this feeling grown because I have faced abuse, discrimination and intolerance?

The "cricket test" is a good measure of how at ease a society is with recent arrivals and how happy they are, but its main flaw is that it seeks to apportion blame. If new arrivals and their descendants don't support the host nation in sport, it might indicate problems and tensions but it won't tell you why those problems have arisen.

btw I am only a non-native according to Pannonian's definition in that I don't feel fully British. 15 out of 16 of my Great Grandparents were born in the UK, but I still don't feel myself to be fully British.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's a two way street and I'm not saying we shouldn't be sensetive to immigrants. Ultimately though we were here first and we still ofrm the majoriety. As such we should have a far greater in what goes on.

For example, if a Muslim comes into my house I won't show him the soles of my shoes out of respect, on the other hand if that Muslim wants to smoke, something far more acceptable outside the West, he'll have to go outside just like anyone else.

What does bother me a little is that apparently ethnic minorieies now make up over 9% of the total population, whereas at the last census they made up less than 8%. Britain cannot sustain that level of immigration without serious consequences.

At this point I would be in favour of closing borders completely for four years until we can get a grip on the current situation, clear the backlog and deport those who need deporting.

[Pannonian]

Very interesting phrase. If I, as an immigrant, or descended from immigrants don't feel fully British, whose fault is that? Is it mine for not wanting to integrate, or has this feeling grown because I have faced abuse, discrimination and intolerance?

The "cricket test" is a good measure of how at ease a society is with recent arrivals and how happy they are, but its main flaw is that it seeks to apportion blame. If new arrivals and their descendants don't support the host nation in sport, it might indicate problems and tensions but it won't tell you why those problems have arisen.

btw I am only a non-native according to Pannonian's definition in that I don't feel fully British. 15 out of 16 of my Great Grandparents were born in the UK, but I still don't feel myself to be fully British.
If you want to know, I am even less qualified to be British than you are, and thus am even more aware of the host-guest relationship. If the host has discharged his duties adequately, which Britain has, mostly, the guest should not abuse the host's generosity and patience. Britain doesn't make many demands of its immigrant population, mainly that they should observe its laws and pay their taxes. If even this is too much for them, then the guests are unwelcome here.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Immigrants are not treated as well as you think. They are subject to abuse and discrimination. They are treated as a group and accused of taking jobs, houses and healthcare and other services. Is it, then, any wonder that they don't some don't "integrate" but harbour resentment against the host nation. The surprising thing is how well the majority fit in and do far more to be a part of society than just obey the law and pay their taxes.

[Tribesman]

Immigrants are not treated as well as you think. They are subject to abuse and discrimination. They are treated as a group and accused of taking jobs, houses and healthcare and other services. Is it, then, any wonder that they don't some don't "integrate" but harbour resentment against the host nation. The surprising thing is how well the majority fit in and do far more to be a part of society than just obey the law and pay their taxes.

Good Duke , very good .
Now would you like to extend that further to take in the problems relating to this documentary regarding some of the 2nd/3rd or even 4th generation of immigrant descendants who even though they are born there and their parents did all the right things to fit in can sometimes develop the attitude that they are still "damn immigrants taking jobs and benefits off of the good ol natives" and respond as such .

[Fragony]

Sounds absolutily terrible, poor guys, no wonder they want to kill Brits. Now can we please stop making up excuses we would never allow for ourselves? Wasn't the BNP a party for the socalled lower classes, feel free to excuse them with the same enthousiasm.

[Pannonian]

Good Duke , very good .
Now would you like to extend that further to take in the problems relating to this documentary regarding some of the 2nd/3rd or even 4th generation of immigrant descendants who even though they are born there and their parents did all the right things to fit in can sometimes develop the attitude that they are still "damn immigrants taking jobs and benefits off of the good ol natives" and respond as such .
You'll probably find that this kind of attitude is most common in the areas where there is least everyday contact with actual immigrants. In the metropolitan areas, WASPs often identify more with brown people from the same city than with fellow WASPs from another part of the country.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Good Duke , very good .
Now would you like to extend that further to take in the problems relating to this documentary regarding some of the 2nd/3rd or even 4th generation of immigrant descendants who even though they are born there and their parents did all the right things to fit in can sometimes develop the attitude that they are still "damn immigrants taking jobs and benefits off of the good ol natives" and respond as such .

I am not sure I can. This is partly because I was not talking about the programme, rather the idea that immigrants and their descendants should fit in, and if they don't it is their fault. Another problem is that I can't understand what you are saying. Is it the 2nd/3rd generation who think the are "damn immigrants .... " or do they perceive that attitude from others? If I had seen the programme I might know precisely what you mean.


Sounds absolutily terrible, poor guys, no wonder they want to kill Brits. Now can we please stop making up excuses we would never allow for ourselves? Wasn't the BNP a party for the socalled lower classes, feel free to excuse them with the same enthousiasm.

My "excuse" was for not fitting in. There is, of course, no excuse for sectarian murder.


You'll probably find that this kind of attitude is most common in the areas where there is least everyday contact with actual immigrants. In the metropolitan areas, WASPs often identify more with brown people from the same city than with fellow WASPs from another part of the country.

Not my experience in Bradford.

[InsaneApache]

But Bradford is a special case. It's not so much multi-cultural as bi-cultural.

The different populations tend to, by and large, stick to their own ethnic/religious groups.

That being said, I do a lot of business with various ethnicities, Sikh, Hindu, Jews and Moslems and I only know which religion they are if I ask (which I don't) or if they tell me (which they sometimes do).

I've had some belting (homemade) curries from several of my suppliers. :2thumbsup:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think we need to admit that immigrants do take jobs, simply because they will work for less. Plumbing is a lot less profitable now than it was before Poland joined the EU. Ultimately the problem is with the employers who depand lower prices, but maybe also the immigrants for undercutting the locals when they could actually charge more and get away with it quite happily.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think we need to admit that immigrants do take jobs, simply because they will work for less. Plumbing is a lot less profitable now than it was before Poland joined the EU. Ultimately the problem is with the employers who depand lower prices, but maybe also the immigrants for undercutting the locals when they could actually charge more and get away with it quite happily.

Rather misleading, don't you think?

The UK has a minimum wage. Immigrants can't "work for less" unless they are being exploited by employers. This is illegal and should be treated as such. It isn't the immigrants' fault.

In a fair choice between applicants for low paid jobs, responsible employers often do choose immigrants over residents - why? - because the immigrants are invariably harder-working and better qualified. Are you arguing that employers should employ the feckless and illiterate just because they are local?

Plumbing is less profitable because supply has caught up with demand. Back in the day when plumbers were scarce, they could command high prices, and often delivered shoddy work. Ever try and get a plumber in the late 90's?

Now the country has lots of well-qualified, courteous, hard-working plumbers who charge a reasonable amount and are likely to be available right now when the central heating needs fixing, not some time in late August. Competition has benefitted everyone.

Undercutting competitors is a perfectly normal business practice. The consumer wants lower prices and better quality. This is called a market. It has invariably been seen as a good thing in comparison to a command economy where the state tells you what you must pay and to whom.

[Tribesman]

Another problem is that I can't understand what you are saying. Is it the 2nd/3rd generation who think the are "damn immigrants .... " or do they perceive that attitude from others? If I had seen the programme I might know precisely what you mean.

OK lets try an example .
There is this woman that drinks down my local , she is often in there on a Friday after work with her kids while I am in there with mine .
On the walk up to the bus after the pub sometimes she and her kids get verbal racial abuse .
On most occasions a good verbal ******* in their native tongue(which strangly enough most of the racist idiots cannot even speak themselves) shuts them up , occasionally it is neccasary to introduce their heads to the pavement .
Now then , do you think that that her kids (3rd generation Irish of part Indian descent) will develop some sort of resentment towards a society when gobshites shout "**** off home you Paki (the idiots cannot even get that right) ******** " at them in the street ?
To expand it further I wonder if her father got the same treatment when he was working in India , or for a really funny one I wonder where the idiots tell her brother who emigrated to London to bugger off back to when he encounters them over there ?

The point is that racial hatred and discrimination can breed resentment , that resentment can breed hatred .
That hatred can be harvested by exremists . Those extremists attract more racial hatred which in turn breeds more resentment ........
A seemingly unending cycle .
Its about time them human being thingies actually try using their brains for once to attempt to break the cycle .

[Fragony]

Good job at introducing their heads to the pavement then. I dunno, maybe there just is a lot more racism in Brittain. I have never seen or heard anything like that. Still problems with immigrants though.

[King Henry V]

I find it hardly to believe that Islam is a religion of peace when ten years after the death of its founder, it had already conquered Suryia, Palestine, Egypt, Persia, Mesopotamia and Armenia, and after which it would make some of the most aggressive expansions in human history, reaching as far as Tours in 732 and the Indus in 750.
Some like to say that Jihad is not so much a concept of expansion against infidel countries, but a more defensive approach. As this is formulated by more modern Muslims, I believe this is more an attempt to soften this particular aspect of Islam, and besides, this has not been the definition for the past 1400 years.

[Duke of Gloucester]

OK lets try an example .
There is this woman that drinks down my local , she is often in there on a Friday after work with her kids while I am in there with mine .
On the walk up to the bus after the pub sometimes she and her kids get verbal racial abuse .
On most occasions a good verbal ******* in their native tongue(which strangly enough most of the racist idiots cannot even speak themselves) shuts them up , occasionally it is neccasary to introduce their heads to the pavement .
Now then , do you think that that her kids (3rd generation Irish of part Indian descent) will develop some sort of resentment towards a society when gobshites shout "**** off home you Paki (the idiots cannot even get that right) ******** " at them in the street ?
To expand it further I wonder if her father got the same treatment when he was working in India , or for a really funny one I wonder where the idiots tell her brother who emigrated to London to bugger off back to when he encounters them over there ?

The point is that racial hatred and discrimination can breed resentment , that resentment can breed hatred .
That hatred can be harvested by exremists . Those extremists attract more racial hatred which in turn breeds more resentment ........
A seemingly unending cycle .
Its about time them human being thingies actually try using their brains for once to attempt to break the cycle .

I think you are making the same point I am.


But Bradford is a special case. It's not so much multi-cultural as bi-cultural.

The different populations tend to, by and large, stick to their own ethnic/religious groups.


Different from what Panonnian is used to perhaps, but not unique.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I find it hardly to believe that Islam is a religion of peace when ten years after the death of its founder, it had already conquered Suryia, Palestine, Egypt, Persia, Mesopotamia and Armenia, and after which it would make some of the most aggressive expansions in human history, reaching as far as Tours in 732 and the Indus in 750.
Some like to say that Jihad is not so much a concept of expansion against infidel countries, but a more defensive approach. As this is formulated by more modern Muslims, I believe this is more an attempt to soften this particular aspect of Islam, and besides, this has not been the definition for the past 1400 years.


But as has been repeated ad nauseam, this political activity is not any more of a characteristic of Islam the religion than the same brutal expansionism is a characteristic of Christianity. Heck, even Buddhists have been known to go empire building with fire and the sword.

You might just as well claim that all Christians are bloodthirsty warmongers because of the actions of the Crusades through to George W Bush. It's nonsense, and you know it.

~:rolleyes:

[InsaneApache]

You might just as well claim that all Christians are bloodthirsty warmongers because of the actions of the Crusades through to George W Bush. It's nonsense, and you know it.

oh, I dunno......:juggle2:

[King Henry V]

However, for the first centuries of Christianity, it was a presecuted and underground religion and still followed the original teachings of Christ. It was only much later that it undertook campaigns to ectend its realm, such as with Charlemagne's conquest of pagan Saxony. However, with Islam, this expansionism was seen a mere ten years after the death of its founder, when is contempory followers were still alive.

[Banquo's Ghost]

However, for the first centuries of Christianity, it was a presecuted and underground religion and still followed the original teachings of Christ. It was only much later that it undertook campaigns to ectend its realm, such as with Charlemagne's conquest of pagan Saxony. However, with Islam, this expansionism was seen a mere ten years after the death of its founder, when is contempory followers were still alive.

Ah, so it's purely a matter of timing?

Immediate bloodthirsty expansion = religion of war.
Delayed bloodthirsty expansion = religion of peace.

~:rolleyes:

Look, it's very simple. Islam is no more warlike than any other religion. Wise and spiritual people can find solace and guidance for their lives of peace and kindness in all the religious books and myths. Hate-crazed lunatics and marginalised eejits can find justification for their evil acts in the same books, often wielding the very same words. In neither case is the book or religion good or evil, but the people using it.

To paraphrase: Faith doesn't kill people, people kill people.

Islam isn't the problem - the cause of hate and marginalisation is. People who feel themselves powerless often turn to gods and their more populist representatives. And not only gods - witness how marginalised peoples turned to Hitler not so long ago, who provided them with just the same hatred and easy solutions tacked on to a dogma.

[King Henry V]

Generally, the closer in time one is to the founding of a religion, the closer its followers are to its original message. I'm not saying that Christianity is a religion of peace, however, what I do say is that Islam is a more belligerent religion than others.
As far as I know in the teachings of Christ, there is no provision for war based on religious reasons. In the teachings of Mohammed, there is.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Rather misleading, don't you think?

The UK has a minimum wage. Immigrants can't "work for less" unless they are being exploited by employers. This is illegal and should be treated as such. It isn't the immigrants' fault.

Well for starters some immigrants will work for below the minimum wage quite happily, if they know it is below minumum wage, and I'm not saying they always do as many don't have great English and it's probably still better than back home, but if they do aren't they then committing a crime.


In a fair choice between applicants for low paid jobs, responsible employers often do choose immigrants over residents - why? - because the immigrants are invariably harder-working and better qualified. Are you arguing that employers should employ the feckless and illiterate just because they are local?

No, you should choose the immigrant, but if you didn't have an immigrant then you'd chose a local. So now you have a local without a job because an immigrant has a job.


Plumbing is less profitable because supply has caught up with demand. Back in the day when plumbers were scarce, they could command high prices, and often delivered shoddy work. Ever try and get a plumber in the late 90's?

My dad is a plumber, and a chippy, a brickie and a car mechanic, if he can't fix it it isn't broken. My mum is an accountant, you wouldn't believe the money we've saved over the last decade. The reason my father is all these things is because getting someone else to do it wasn't worth it.

[qutoe]Now the country has lots of well-qualified, courteous, hard-working plumbers who charge a reasonable amount and are likely to be available right now when the central heating needs fixing, not some time in late August. Competition has benefitted everyone.


No, it's great. It's just a same the English have gotten so bad at competing. However, if plumbing was very profitable and now is not so profitable it's very hard for people to go back to that, they have houses, cars, loans etc.

[quote]Undercutting competitors is a perfectly normal business practice. The consumer wants lower prices and better quality. This is called a market. It has invariably been seen as a good thing in comparison to a command economy where the state tells you what you must pay and to whom.

Oh, I agree, but as I said, our economy can't take the change and even the conciencious workers can't compete.

If I said you had to take a 50% or even 25% pay cut wouldn't it cause you problems?

I'm not blaming immigrants but they are taking jobs that would otherwise go to natives, it's a simple fact and we need to face up to it and find a way for local buisnesses to be able to compete. Persuading Poles to take a pay rise would help to do that.

[InsaneApache]

:bow:

[Scurvy]

As far as I know in the teachings of Christ, there is no provision for war based on religious reasons.

:laugh4:

--> the crusades?

[caravel]

While I agree with Wigferth Ironwall in essence I have to say that the old "they took our jobs!" line seems rather hollow at times. There are masses of people claiming benefit in this country, there are teenage girls that go out and get "in the family way", so as to be able to secure these benefits for the next 16 years at least, there are others that have "bad backs" and are also claiming indefinitely. There are the "stressed" ones, also claiming. Next up are the blingers in the boy racer cars, screeching into the job centre car park, signing the paper, back into the blingmobile complete with italicised number plate, spoiler kit, and blacked out windows, wheelspinning away to the off license, and finally back to bed. They have absolutely no intention of working. Daz, Baz or Shaz or whatever their names may be, no doubt regard themselves as being among the jobless due to a few Somalians or Polish having stolen their chosen vocations from them, and not because of the fact that they simply cannot unglue their backsides from the mattresses before 2pm.

[Tribesman]

--> the crusades?

yeah and God is with us and all that , not actually teachings of Christ but churches backing of politics or nationalism and interpreting scripture purely to fit their purposes .
The problem isn't Christianity or Islam , it is silly peoples intepretations and applications of it .

[Redleg]

The problem isn't Christianity or Islam , it is silly peoples intepretations and applications of it .

I might have to go get my head checked. I actually agree with Tribes on this.

:2thumbsup:

[rory_20_uk]

yeah and God is with us and all that , not actually teachings of Christ but churches backing of politics or nationalism and interpreting scripture purely to fit their purposes .
The problem isn't Christianity or Islam , it is silly peoples interpretations and applications of it.

Having articles of faith that have large passages dealing with killing nonbelievers is hardly going to help matters.

~:smoking:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'd like to agree with Tribesman, really, I would.

But I agree more with Rory. Islam may be, by and large, a peaceful and acceptable religion but it makes specific provision for making Holy War, which the New Testemant does not.

[Pannonian]

I'd like to agree with Tribesman, really, I would.

But I agree more with Rory. Islam may be, by and large, a peaceful and acceptable religion but it makes specific provision for making Holy War, which the New Testemant does not.
Doesn't it also make specific provision for civilised war, for government of a kingdom/empire, etc? The NT is mostly about personal advancement, and much of it is inapplicable to real life (try turning your other cheek until both have been slapped raw). Islam is a religion firmly rooted in the real world, and deals with real world issues. Look at their provisions for war, and you'll find they're closer to our way of thinking than the wishy-washiness of the NT.

[lancelot]

What's wrong with an Islamic Republic of Britain, that would be totally awesome.

I wish good luck to the Muslims who strive for that goal. Even if they don't meet it, at least they are standing up for morality and trying to do something good for society.

Certainly is a lot more respectable of a goal to turn Britain to Islam than it is to try to shove the infidel institution of democracy down the throats of Muslim nations (ie: War on Iraq).


Erm...what?

Islamic Republic.....'infidel institution of democracy' :juggle2:

[InsaneApache]

We tried being a republic once, we didn't like it much. :laugh4:

[Scurvy]

We tried being a republic once, we didn't like it much.

:yes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Doesn't it also make specific provision for civilised war, for government of a kingdom/empire, etc? The NT is mostly about personal advancement, and much of it is inapplicable to real life (try turning your other cheek until both have been slapped raw). Islam is a religion firmly rooted in the real world, and deals with real world issues. Look at their provisions for war, and you'll find they're closer to our way of thinking than the wishy-washiness of the NT.

Oh granted, there's that whole bit about non-combatants and not salting the earth. What I'm saying is you cannot say it is a peaceful religion, because it just isn't.

Doesn't make it bad at all. As a religion Islam is probably the best out-of-the-box one there is.

I just happen to believe in the Christ and if he happens to make things slightly less clear I'll deal with those issues as they come up.