Vassals

[Orda Khan]

Has anyone seen vassals in their campaign? I've not witnessed any faction become a vassal, not been able to impose this and have not had this demand from anyone. Just wondering

......Orda

[R'as al Ghul]

Yes, I've seen France being the vassal of Spain.
I've tried twice to impose it, to no avail and haven't had the demand from anyone.
I guess it can easily be overlooked? I don't check the diplomatic screen every turn and I don't think you get a message like "faction x became the vassal of faction y"? I wonder what the conditions are?

[Tran]

Early in my English campaign, France (after betraying the alliance with me and tried to besiege me) sent their princess and wanted me to became their vassal, twice, (if I remembered correctly)...my respond is of course...wipe them off the map :beam: Other than that I haven't seen any nation becoming vassal of others

[Husar]

I've seen it quite a few times and have been asked to become a vassal a lot and there is a diplomatic message.

[FactionHeir]

I posted some stuff in lengths about this before but too lazy to go find it now.

Lets just say that in order to make someone a successful vassal,you already have to be at war with them (to get the option)
In the diplomacy screen, they will only ever become your vassal if when you make the offer it is counted as balanced or demanding to begin with.
Also, there is an oddity with it where loading the game may bump it from balanced to very demanding (they will never agree unless you give them all your settlements)

[Lorenzo_H]

The Mongols keep asking me to become their vassal. Every time I just scream "NO" and then the diplomat annoys me by saying "don't worry, we can talk about this later" in his annoying Mongol accent!

[Lord_hazard]

Someone almost always demans be to become their vassal at the start of the campaignm, but the only time ive ever seen someone become a vassal is when denmark became a vassal to germany.

[dopp]

It does happen quite a bit in my games. Turks usually submit to Byzantium (or the other way round). France usually gives in to Milan and then Milan bows to England in late game. I think Poland and Hungary became vassals in my last game after Timurids swarmed over their empires.

To beat a faction into surrender, you need to border all their territories, outnumber them 4 times in total military strength and 3 times in local strength. The first condition can be horribly hard to achieve, especially if they have a crusade territory somewhere far away.

[Divine Wind]

Ive seen it a lot. Portugal and Spain, France and the HRE, Egpyt and Turkey, and a few more I cant remember. To enforce it myself you have to threaten enemy cities/castles with a large force inside the province.

[RabidGibbon]

In a Danish Campaign I was a vassal of the Holy Roman Empire, France, Hungary, The Holy Romn Empire again, The Mongols and then Hungary again.

Its quite an easy way to make money (Danish freedom generally costs around 10,000 florins). Never had anyone be my Vassal though.

[pevergreen]

One member got it, only cost him 175k! Bargain!

[grinningman]

Both times I've played as England France has asked me to become their vassal. The first time this happened, they agreed to trade me a couple of their regions if I became a vassal. I accepted, and then a few turns later attacked them with apparently little or no penalty. So it ended up being a cheap way to get a couple of regions for free.

Trading regions in diplomacy is not cool :-/

[crpcarrot]

in my first english campaign france demanded i become their vassal and i agred for a huge tribute for 10 years. theya greed. :D gave me time to build up enough strnght to beat them.

i've seen it a few times among the AI but doesnt seem to mean much since the protector doesnt seem to do any protecting.

[zstajerski]

I myself had a few vassals, but the funiest thin g i ever witnesed was,
The HRE has in one campain i played accepted SIMOULTAINEOSLY to be the vassal of i think denmark and venice :thumbsdown:

Although i think denmark and venice were alies then..

[Kraggenmor]

I get demands of vassalship frequently. I've seen an actual client kingdom relationship announced once. It may have happened more often and I just wasn't paying attention, I tend to whip through or completely ignore most of the diplomatic info messages from ending turns, since diplomacy really doesn't matter in this game. (IMO)

I've tried dozens of times to make a faction my vassal but have never succeeded. Even with them on the brink of elimination with the army in place ready to lay seige.

I know, I know, Offer them provinces, offer them money...

Done it. Never works. For me anyway.

[FactionHeir]

If you need to offer them provinces or a lot of money, then they will not accept to begin with unless you give them your empire.

If they are willing to accept, giving them map info + 4000-8000 flroins should be enough.

[LordKhaine]

I've seen AI factions turn other AI factions into vassals a lot. Been demanded I become a vassal once, though I've never got a vassal myself.

[Musashi]

I make other factions my vassals all the time. It's not hard.

In fact, I generally at the beginning of any campaign, pick one to three other factions that I intend to keep alive. I ally with them, make marriage alliances, etc. I never break an alliance with them, and if they attack me, I'll only beat them into submission, never destroy them.

Generally it's along historical alliance lines (Like if I'm Byzantium I'll keep the Rus and the Danes alive).

It's generally more trouble than exterminating them, but it's more fun.

[Orda Khan]

Interesting, Ive beaten many into a state where they are hanging on the brink. Whenever I offer a ceasefire and demand they become a vassal I am told it's very demanding. I thought it was quite compassionate myself but there you go. But if the so called protector does nothing to protect or interact it's a bit meaningless. I really thought we would get the chance to send armies to assist allies and vassals in joint field battles

.......Orda

[SnowlyWhite]

Just made HRE vassals as England; even gave them 5k for this(God knows why). Didn't even beat them too hard... took Hamburg to give it to the Danes(God knows why again) and trashed 3 stacks that were around in the process.

And now, for the sake of roleplaying, I'm tryin' to protect them(which is a pain in the since I have to run around their territories like no tommorow due to them being at war with 3 factions and me not having watchtowers over there and being to lazy to make spies...). Otherwise, I didn't get what are the benefices of this thing... I pushed the french around abit, but they didn't support, despite having perfect relations with them(and that's with patched diplo)... Shrug, anyway, it's possible, and even for reasonable cash.

Saw the ai making each other vassals a ton of times however... particularly the mongols seem to enjoy it when I"m not over there:p Guess in every game I was in the west they made the turks vassals.

Anyway, again, this is with patched diplo; without, even when I had 50+ provs. to their 1 and offered them hundreds of k, they kept refusing...

[dopp]

Interesting, Ive beaten many into a state where they are hanging on the brink. Whenever I offer a ceasefire and demand they become a vassal I am told it's very demanding. I thought it was quite compassionate myself but there you go. But if the so called protector does nothing to protect or interact it's a bit meaningless. I really thought we would get the chance to send armies to assist allies and vassals in joint field battles

.......Orda

You have to part with something in the order of 50k florins to get them to agree, plus return them a few territories. It's a major hassle for something so easily broken.

In RTW, I would maintain client kingdoms in the Middle East to save myself the agony of maintaining public order so far away. I love the new and more forgiving (as well as reasonable) public order system in M2TW, but now there's really no benefit to keeping protectorates around even for that purpose.

[Musashi]

Dopp: That's not true. I've gotten factions to agree to vassalage without offering them a cent.

Usually though, I give them back one of the territories I took from them.

Oftentimes a faction will agree to vassalage after just one single really severe beating in battle. But if not, all you have to do is reduce them to their final territory, surround them with 3x the troops they have left, and make your offer.

Also, on the subject of benefits... Oftentimes it makes more sense to turn an area into a client kingdom rather than conquer it outright. You get a substantial part of their income, and you don't have to deal with the expense of managing it yourself.

[TevashSzat]

There is a much higher chance of the ai agreeing to vassalage, if they offer a ceasefire. Once, i was the danes, delcared war on the polish and on the next turn, they offered a ceasfire, i wanted a vassalge and they agreed. A one turn war

[dopp]

Dopp: That's not true. I've gotten factions to agree to vassalage without offering them a cent.

So have I. However, money seems to help.

[Rhinehard von Dill]

I've seen the AI create vassalages with one another a few times. I am assuming its the message in the Diplomatic Information to the effect of so and so has absolved diplomatic soverignty, etc. I could never tell who was the vassal of who. Personally, I have never been successful with getting a faction to become one of my vassals. Once, I had Milan completely wiped out as the HRE except for one province which was Jerusalem. I had their port blockaded for some time and eventually sent 3 stacks to wipe them out at once. Even before I attacked, I offered them to become my vassal and they refused.

[zstajerski]

Also your general reputation helps a lot :)

[Orda Khan]

This is interesting....
Currently Poland has one region only and my army laying siege outnumbers them by far more than 3>1 and my general has 10 stars. I'd say it takes a very principled man to refuse a chance for his people to at least save their lives

.......Orda

[TevashSzat]

Hmm, maybe the Poles want to die fighting?

[Musashi]

Also your general reputation helps a lot :)
QFT. If your global reputation isn't reliable or trustworthy, you can forget about ever making another state a vassal (This makes sense, why would they trust you to honor your agreement if you have an untrustworthy reputation?)

[pevergreen]

Even with Shaba Wangy diplo mod, France hates england.

I got vasseled by france in exchange for Toulouse.
They attacked me next turn.

They offer Vassal to me same turn they attack me, i accept for another castle (Bourdearex(sp?)) Continues like this until they only have capital. Without me even fighting them!

[sapi]

QFT. If your global reputation isn't reliable or trustworthy, you can forget about ever making another state a vassal (This makes sense, why would they trust you to honor your agreement if you have an untrustworthy reputation?)
Considering that your reputation will drop regardless over the course of the game (i'm playing on M campaign map atm to stop the 'all out war' syndrome of VH, and when the spanish, with whom i had two marriage alliances, betrayed me, I lost reputation for smashing their field armies and destroying their empire).

One thing that is worth trying, considering that the AI seems to base demands around your treasury, is asking another faction to become your vassal when you're broke. Since you don't have much to pay them, they won't expect as much, or at least that's the theory.

Why france refuses to bow to me atm (when i offered them bordeaux, 30k in one turn and 10k/turn for 3) after i smashed their 3rd invading army in a decade is beyond me.

Then again, why england would randomly attack me with a full stack after i just got a bordering province with them is beyond me too (and i'm too lasy to invade the british isles :inquisitive: )

[Musashi]

Sapi: I always manage to have my reputation going up steadily over the course of the game. You must be doing something to bring it down.

[dopp]

Apart from the one-shot hits to rep from extermination, etc you increase rep by being allied with someone, and lose it by being at war. Since being at war is the default state in Total War, and alliances last all of three long seconds, rep tends to drop more than it rises.

[Horatius]

Having a permanent ambassador to the Holy See giving away 1000 Florins every turn and only ever expanding when you get Crusade triumphs is a pretty good source of reputation for you.

[Musashi]

Apart from the one-shot hits to rep from extermination, etc you increase rep by being allied with someone, and lose it by being at war. Since being at war is the default state in Total War, and alliances last all of three long seconds, rep tends to drop more than it rises.
Funny, I never seem to have trouble maintaining alliances. Your faction leader's chivalry seems to affect your reputation as well.

If you play the diplomacy game right you can easily be allied to more than half of the factions in the game at any given time.

In fact, I love the fact that I usually play up the chivalrous bit and gain high reputation, because then when someone attacks me my whole chain of allies declare war on them.

[Moah]

Funny, I never seem to have trouble maintaining alliances. Your faction leader's chivalry seems to affect your reputation as well.

If you play the diplomacy game right you can easily be allied to more than half of the factions in the game at any given time.

In fact, I love the fact that I usually play up the chivalrous bit and gain high reputation, because then when someone attacks me my whole chain of allies declare war on them.

Ah. That explains why I'm permanently at war with everyone. King Malcolm's 9 Command, 8 dread and 8 authority is great for slaughtering the enemy, but makes them too nervous to ally. Makes a lot of sense. (vh/vh)


I still resent the fact that reminding them you exist makes them attack. I had an alliance with france for 40 turns, then decided to improve relations by giving them money. Teh next turn they attacked. Exactly the same thing with HRE. The Russians sat quite happily miles away, with a few navies floating around. The turn after I formed trade alliance and diplomatic relations they declared war.

I've come to the conclusion that if you make an alliance with someone you shoudl then NEVER EVER talk to them again.

Except the Pope. You can trust the pope with a mere 200fl/turn tribute. And I don't even have a cardinal! We love the pope.

[sapi]

@moah - i've noticed the same thing.

Even a simple trade of map information (at 'generous' balance) has resulted in them saying 'we must break off the alliance' to me in the past

[TevashSzat]

Like musashi said, if you do it quick enough, you can quickly ally almost all of the european nations. At one point in a milan migration campaign, i was allied to venice, papal states, hre, sicily, spain, portugal, france, england, hungary, and the danes. Only the polish werent allied with me and that was because they were at war with the hungarians and i was their ally

[sapi]

Like musashi said, if you do it quick enough, you can quickly ally almost all of the european nations. At one point in a milan migration campaign, i was allied to venice, papal states, hre, sicily, spain, portugal, france, england, hungary, and the danes. Only the polish werent allied with me and that was because they were at war with the hungarians and i was their ally
Migration games are the best way to keep european alliances, as you're so far away it takes half the game for their diplomats to tell you they hate you :laugh4: