Mafia VI: Night of the Day of the Dawn of the Return of the Mafia [Concluded] [Archive] - Page 3

Pannonian

02-21-2007, 11:18

I wouldn't be so quick to give up. Though your posts remind me of when you were guilty in Graffiti that doesn't really prove much does it, and if anything your not a great lynch candidate at this early in the game.

Unvote:Xiahou
Vote:Pannonian

Your post about Faust is the reason I'm voting you. You'de kill a person you say you think is townie because they refuse to make a case against RR so you can vote him. That just doesn't sit well with me.

There are 2 parts to this accusation, and I'll answer each.

Why will I be voting for Faust? I'll be voting for Faust for the same reason I'm voting Sigurd - to force sensible discussion. In Sigurd's case you among others have repeatedly called on him to explain his votes, and each time he's answered with "LOL bandwagon" or something similar. Here's Andres making the point in post #438 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1434920&postcount=438), and here's me making the point in post #441 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1434991&postcount=441). Here's what I've written about Sigurd - "You've been gleefully opaque throughout this game, without even the semblance of explanation."

Later on, out of nowhere (Reenk was clear of votes at that point), Faust votes Reenk without any explanation in post #449 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435635&postcount=449). I ask him in post #451 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435687&postcount=451) to explain why he's voting Reenk, but all there is is post #452 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435692&postcount=452), where he replied to Reenk, saying "Or you could murder me". He then edits out this post. What to make of this?

One possibility is that Faust is the new detective, and he's investigated Reenk and found him guilty. So I press him to reveal any explanation he may have against Reenk, deliberately saying "explanation" rather than "information" to give him a townie cover story should he wish for it, and backing it up with the threat of the rope. Standard Mafia stuff. As pevergreen noted, "Editing like that can get you killed". Here's Faust's reply.

Post #455 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435733&postcount=455)

All I have to say at this point is that it looks as if we [reenk] are not playing the same game ~;)

Look at his reply. Is that the genuine reply of a townie (who's single ultimate goal I'll remind you, is to eliminate the mafia)? His reply doesn't even make sense. Looks like he forgot to act how an accused townie should act to a lone vote.

Remember there is a team of two mafia, it would be stupid for them to act the exact same way...

I'm also surprised that someone jumped to Reenk's defense so aggressively when he was not in any danger of being lynched. Are you that dumb?

Post #458 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435738&postcount=458)

I don't respond well to threats, sorry to disappoint.

Now this may be pointing towards Reenk having been investigated and found guilty, but it's not quite certain this is the point he's making, and it's certainly not enough to persuade others (though I'm inclined to believe it). So I press him some more, spelling it out in clearer terms what he should do and why, using Kommodus' example in M3 to explain why I'm "interested" in votes that come from nowhere.

Post #462

I don't know if I am dumb or not, but I do know when someone isn't explaining himself very well. What exactly do you mean by Reenk not making sense? Quote some examples, then explain how they do not make sense. Link to suspicious Reenk posts that made you vote for him. If Reenk is not in danger, why vote for him in the first place without even an explanation to try and convince others to turn him into a lynchee? We've seen that kind of tactic before in M3, when Kommodus deliberately evaded bandwagons to avoid drawing accusations.

Now I don't think you are mafia, since the descriptions suggested 2 mafiosi who were pretty interested in the game. However, if you are a detective who discovered Reenk to be scum, you're not helping matters by being opaque about this, and you'll probably be killed in the night before you reveal your role. And if you're still alive after tonight, I might be inclined to call for your lynching anyway as an unhelpful townie (at best). So give a better explanation of your vote and reasoning.

So I'm asking him to explain more clearly, I've explained why I've asked him in particular rather than anyone else, I've tried to gratify him by saying I don't think he's mafia, I've explained the options if he's a detective, and I ended it by saying there's a stick to back this all up if the carrot and kind words don't work. Doesn't seem all that unreasonable really, and what followed was some to-ing and fro-ing between me and Sasaki (you asked some questions too, but I didn't bother answering because Sasaki asked the same questions in more detail, and I'd answered him). In addition, Xiahou contributed by stating bluntly that Faust should reveal if he's a detective and Reenk's guilty, since it's accepted that a detective for a mafioso is considered a good exchange.

So on to the second part of the question, why would I be looking for an excuse to vote Reenk? Firstly, if you've read the above you'll have an idea. Also, I've been suspicious of Reenk in the past when he's been unusually quiet, as he was (so it seemed to me) in the early part of this game. First there was M5, when he piped up just when he was under pressure, and I let him go because he added detail to his vote as I requested - for that reason I don't want to let the pressure off him in this game, and let him hide in obscurity as he did in most of M5. Then there was Capo, where he was even more inactive, hiding his identity as Prole's Luca (the reason why I thought immediately of Prole in this game, even though she's not playing). Reenk is better than most at seemingly putting in the words to look like he's participating, while not actually saying very much, and that's why I want him active and under pressure as much as possible. If he's innocent he's clever enough to put forward a good argument against better candidates, while if he's guilty there'll be a better chance of him slipping up somewhere if he's constantly looking at the rope.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-21-2007, 14:21

Current Tally:

CountArach = 1 (Stig)

Kommodus = 1 (Crazed Rabbit)

Pannonian = 1 (Ichigo)

Reenk Roink = 1 (Faust|)

Sasaki Kojiro = 2 (Redleg, Reenk)

Sigurd Fafnesbane = 3 (Andres, Pannonian, Seamus)

Xiahou = 4 (Byz-K, Sasaki, Sigurd, Xiahou)

@ Xiahou:

I've been noticing a trend toward brutality in these games. There is a logic to it. Remember, Sasaki is correct when he notes that even in a successful townie defense, it is likely that 60% of the townies will die. Most townie wins are generated by evaluating the posting/voting record of the narrowed field at the beginning of the endgame. A little callousness toward this inevitable attrition is creeping into the Gameroom.

He would [I am supposing here] argue that picking you as his target du jour -- for whatever reason is twigging his senses -- and hounding you until you a) slipped up and proved to be mafia or b) died as the innocent who is feeding this round's attrition mill, is valuable for the town either way.

Essentially, once you have twigged Sasaki's radar, you are marked for death unless and until your innocence can be demonstrated in a near conclusive fashion.

Note: I am not sure that this does not ALSO lay the groundwork for mafia success. No mafia team has successfully used the lynching process as their primary tool -- but I think such a strategy is out there.

2nd Note: Xiahou, you are also correct that this could be Sasaki's means of covering up his work for the darkside in this game. Hasn't twigged me that way yet, but... "You plays the game, you takes your chances."

@ Pannonian:

Your posting style just made a radical change with your response to the vote against you. I reacted this way as a townie when I was accused by Myrddral following the General's famous "We're both double secret detectives" reveal. It got me lynched.

Now, to your credit, your style has been changing since the beginning of Capo, so this may just be part of your progression to a new level of play, but it is a departure from the previous record.

@ Kommo:

Mycroft, my lad, you are certainly taking your time. Surely this over-long round has upped the posting count enough for some eval?

Sigurd

02-21-2007, 14:55

It's me and you X... in a tie.

Unvote: Xiahou

Andres

02-21-2007, 15:26

Tally:

CountArach = 1 (Stig)

Kommodus = 1 (Crazed Rabbit)

Pannonian = 1 (Ichigo)

Reenk Roink = 1 (Faust|)

Sasaki Kojiro = 2 (Redleg, Reenk)

Sigurd Fafnesbane = 3 (Andres, Pannonian, Seamus)

Xiahou = 3 (Byz-K, Sasaki, Xiahou)

Hm, Sigurd creates a tie :inquisitive:

I'm pretty confused right now ~:confused:

A tie means no lynching, am I correct?

Sigurd

02-21-2007, 15:31

A tie means no lynching, am I correct?

Not in a two way tie... then it is revote :2thumbsup:.

Faust|

02-21-2007, 15:49

...
So I'm asking him to explain more clearly, I've explained why I've asked him in particular rather than anyone else, I've tried to gratify him by saying I don't think he's mafia, I've explained the options if he's a detective, and I ended it by saying there's a stick to back this all up if the carrot and kind words don't work. Doesn't seem all that unreasonable really, and what followed was some to-ing and fro-ing between me and Sasaki (you asked some questions too, but I didn't bother answering because Sasaki asked the same questions in more detail, and I'd answered him). In addition, Xiahou contributed by stating bluntly that Faust should reveal if he's a detective and Reenk's guilty, since it's accepted that a detective for a mafioso is considered a good exchange.

So on to the second part of the question, why would I be looking for an excuse to vote Reenk? Firstly, if you've read the above you'll have an idea. Also, I've been suspicious of Reenk in the past when he's been unusually quiet, as he was (so it seemed to me) in the early part of this game. First there was M5, when he piped up just when he was under pressure, and I let him go because he added detail to his vote as I requested - for that reason I don't want to let the pressure off him in this game, and let him hide in obscurity as he did in most of M5. Then there was Capo, where he was even more inactive, hiding his identity as Prole's Luca (the reason why I thought immediately of Prole in this game, even though she's not playing). Reenk is better than most at seemingly putting in the words to look like he's participating, while not actually saying very much, and that's why I want him active and under pressure as much as possible. If he's innocent he's clever enough to put forward a good argument against better candidates, while if he's guilty there'll be a better chance of him slipping up somewhere if he's constantly looking at the rope.

Your second paragraph above hits the nail on the head for me. This is what I was thinking before I voted, but I supposed that I had a unique opportunity to attack from a different angle, being a new player and just having been replaced into this game. In this particular situation, I supposed, the less I said, the more useful information (on anyone, not only Reenk) would be generated. Of course you will have to analyze on a higher level than the face-value of the respondents' statements, but there you go.

*edit*: Also the timing, in addition to the nature, of my vote seemed like it would be effective... I still can't believe I was pressured to explain all of this though.

Faust|

02-21-2007, 16:20

have to edit out, sorry again

Dutch_guy

02-21-2007, 16:46

It's me and you X... in a tie.

Unvote: Xiahou

This may be very noble, but what exactly does one wish to get out of this, other than the tie ?

:balloon2:

Sigurd

02-21-2007, 16:52

This may be very noble, but what exactly does one wish to get out of this, other than the tie ?

:balloon2:

Hmm... you're right.. we need a three way tie.

Vote: Sasaki

Pannonian

02-21-2007, 17:18

@ Pannonian:

Your posting style just made a radical change with your response to the vote against you. I reacted this way as a townie when I was accused by Myrddral following the General's famous "We're both double secret detectives" reveal. It got me lynched.

Now, to your credit, your style has been changing since the beginning of Capo, so this may just be part of your progression to a new level of play, but it is a departure from the previous record.

If you're talking about the essay writing, take a look at my accusation (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402103&postcount=1292) of Sasaki in Capo.

Redleg

02-21-2007, 17:25

Hmm... you're right.. we need a three way tie.

Vote: Sasaki

This makes me think that I might need to change my vote - explain why you believe a three way tie is necessary?

Updated voting list

CountArach = 1 (Stig)

Kommodus = 1 (Crazed Rabbit)

Pannonian = 1 (Ichigo)

Reenk Roink = 1 (Faust|)

Sasaki Kojiro = 3 (Redleg, Reenk, Sigurd)

Sigurd Fafnesbane = 3 (Andres, Pannonian, Seamus)

Xiahou = 3 (Byz-K, Sasaki, Xiahou)

Xiahou

02-21-2007, 17:41

Essentially, once you have twigged Sasaki's radar, you are marked for death unless and until your innocence can be demonstrated in a near conclusive fashion.I agree.

2nd Note: Xiahou, you are also correct that this could be Sasaki's means of covering up his work for the darkside in this game. Hasn't twigged me that way yet, but... "You plays the game, you takes your chances."
His attacks are wildly inconsistent. Would I have noticed if he hadn't started in on me? Perhaps not. I think his manner of playing when a townie is designed to give him cover when he gets a mafia role. If wild and inconsistent accusations are the norm for him, how can he ever be acting suspicious? Accusing one person of bandwagoning and scummy behavior because they vote based on previous discussion and "without reason", but another who does the same thing doesn't need a reason because it's obvious why they're voting based on previous discussion. The inconsistency that's so obvious there is apparently the norm for Sasaki. If he's mafia and chooses to railroad some and defend others for seemingly inconsistent reasoning, how are we then to call him out on it? You can't. :dizzy2:

I've come to the unfortunate conclusion that I need to be lynched. If I vote to save myself, I'm suspicious. If I convince others to save me, it'll be seen as just a clever ploy. If I live, we'll just see another round of debate largely consumed with back and forth about me. The only way anything I'll say will carry any weight is to be lynched- even then, it'll probably be claimed that I'm mafia and just sacrificed myself to mislead the town. But, at least then I will be off the table as a lynch candidate. There are plenty of suspicious people left, and right now, I'm a distraction.

Redleg

02-21-2007, 18:28

Well I am against the tie, and Sigurd's tactic seems kind of scummy to me.

Unvote:Sasaki
Vote:Sigurd

CountArach = 1 (Stig)

Kommodus = 1 (Crazed Rabbit)

Pannonian = 1 (Ichigo)

Reenk Roink = 1 (Faust|)

Sasaki Kojiro = 2 ( Reenk, Sigurd)

Sigurd Fafnesbane = 4 (Andres, Pannonian, Seamus, Redleg)

Xiahou = 3 (Byz-K, Sasaki, Xiahou)

Stig

02-21-2007, 18:32

I'm in favour of a tie, it gives us more discussion

Unvote: Count Arach
Vote: Xiahou

Xiahou

02-21-2007, 18:34

Well I am against the tie, and Sigurd's tactic seems kind of scummy to me.
I'm inclined to agree. :yes:

Pannonian

02-21-2007, 18:53

I'm in favour of a tie, it gives us more discussion

Unvote: Count Arach
Vote: Xiahou
Discussion has been extended by a day already, and Sigurd has made it clear he's not going to participate in any discussion. So any further extension is just going to be taking potshots at Xiahou. If you think Xiahou is guilty, make the case for his execution, but extending discussion for the sake of extending discussion doesn't really help. Unless you just want a tee off between those two without any other peripheral voting.

Sigurd

02-21-2007, 19:10

I guess Xiahou want's out..

Alright X I will help.

Unvote: Sasaki
Vote: Xiahou

Dutch_guy

02-21-2007, 19:23

I guess Xiahou want's out..

Alright X I will help.

Unvote: Sasaki
Vote: Xiahou

Hmm this gives the impression you fear that tie, because I daresay X actually wants to die if he can help it...

:balloon2:

Reenk Roink

02-21-2007, 19:30

Because I let him go early on in M5 when he was in trouble, and he reverted back to his strategy of staying away from attention and nearly brought the mafia to victory. Therefore I want him in the open as much as possible and talking, and as I've mentioned votes are the most effective way of forcing participation.

You'll never force me to act in the way you want! I'm a free soul! :angel:

By the way, I already said what I did was despicable in Mafia V (which is why you were immune from my retaliatory wrath), but I was Mafia, so... :shrug:

If you've investigated him, spill it. It's widely acknowledged that a detective is a good trade for a mafioso. If you haven't done so and aren't a detective, they you have some explaining to do.

He's a replacement, so most likely not anything. He probably voted for me because he saw my name in the "Regarding Atheism" thread.

It's not the time. I also don't see why you'd go for faust when Reenk hasn't discussed at all.

Please don't accuse me of not discussing when you have evaded my posts against you (see early in the thread) yourself.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-21-2007, 21:18

Xiahou

02-21-2007, 21:23

Pretty sad, really, to have a 11 of 24 not voting. That's more "no vote" than the two leaders combined. Even if we discount the slackers mentioned in General's promise to WOG another 4 (see replacement thread), the "no vote" types still exceed the lead vote recipient.
Someone should compile a list of chronic mafia slackers. Most of them probably just signup in the hopes that they'll be mafia and wander off if they don't get a role. If we keep a list, we'd know to immediately lynch any of them if they actually start voting in a game. :yes:

Seamus Fermanagh

02-21-2007, 21:49

I don't have such a list, but I do have my voting records on the ones I've been in -- as does Kommo I suspect -- so it's be little trouble to do just that. And we most certainly would. Talk about having a "tell."

Csargo

02-21-2007, 21:54

There are 2 parts to this accusation, and I'll answer each.

Why will I be voting for Faust? I'll be voting for Faust for the same reason I'm voting Sigurd - to force sensible discussion. In Sigurd's case you among others have repeatedly called on him to explain his votes, and each time he's answered with "LOL bandwagon" or something similar. Here's Andres making the point in post #438 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1434920&postcount=438), and here's me making the point in post #441 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1434991&postcount=441). Here's what I've written about Sigurd - "You've been gleefully opaque throughout this game, without even the semblance of explanation."

Later on, out of nowhere (Reenk was clear of votes at that point), Faust votes Reenk without any explanation in post #449 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435635&postcount=449). I ask him in post #451 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435687&postcount=451) to explain why he's voting Reenk, but all there is is post #452 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435692&postcount=452),]where he replied to Reenk, saying "Or you could murder me". He then edits out this post. What to make of this?

One possibility is that Faust is the new detective, and he's investigated Reenk and found him guilty. So I press him to reveal any explanation he may have against Reenk, deliberately saying "explanation" rather than "information" to give him a townie cover story should he wish for it, and backing it up with the threat of the rope. Standard Mafia stuff. As pevergreen noted, "Editing like that can get you killed". Here's Faust's reply.

And what has voting for Sigurd done? He's yet to say anything sensible even with the threat of being lynched. I think Sigurd has a good excuse since he's hosting a game, but after that if he still post's incoherently then I think he'll be a good lynch candidate. Until then I'll ignore Sigurd until his game is over.

Now onto Faust, to force sensible discussion?:laugh4: Just like you've forced Sigurd into sensible discussion. He's already said he doesn't respond well to threats.

I don't think threatening him will help anything. If he is the detective then he'll reveal when he's ready, but I don't think he's the detective.

GeneralHankerchief

02-21-2007, 22:27

FINAL WARNING to those who believe they are facing the Wrath of God - post now or forever be labelled as "lurker."

Kagemusha

02-22-2007, 00:15

Vote Sigurd.It seems you have been acting very strange lately.:inquisitive:

Pannonian

02-22-2007, 00:26

Current Tally:

Kommodus = 1 (Crazed Rabbit)

Pannonian = 1 (Ichigo)

Reenk Roink = 1 (Faust|)

Sasaki Kojiro = 1 (Reenk)

Sigurd Fafnesbane = 4 (Andres, Pannonian, Redleg, Seamus)

Xiahou = 5 (Byz-K, Sasaki, Sigurd, Stig, Xiahou)

Pretty sad, really, to have a 11 of 24 not voting. That's more "no vote" than the two leaders combined. Even if we discount the slackers mentioned in General's promise to WOG another 4 (see replacement thread), the "no vote" types still exceed the lead vote recipient.
The standard for most Mafia games seems to be around 2/3 voting in any particular round, with the non-voting lineup changing every round. It's been the case in the previous rounds of this game, and through most of Capo. This round has been particularly bad for whatever reason.

Pannonian

02-22-2007, 00:45

Your second paragraph above hits the nail on the head for me. This is what I was thinking before I voted, but I supposed that I had a unique opportunity to attack from a different angle, being a new player and just having been replaced into this game. In this particular situation, I supposed, the less I said, the more useful information (on anyone, not only Reenk) would be generated. Of course you will have to analyze on a higher level than the face-value of the respondents' statements, but there you go.

*edit*: Also the timing, in addition to the nature, of my vote seemed like it would be effective... I still can't believe I was pressured to explain all of this though.
You should make yourself aware of the various things people look for when they hunt for mafia. The FAQ (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=70374) contains a glossary, but I'll give you a gameplay-specific list.

1. Bandwagoning. Used extensively in Mafia I and II to hide in the crowd, until Kommodus used vote analysis to pick out a mafioso in Mafia II.
2. Anti-bandwagoning, or the odd vote. Aware that bandwagoning was seen with suspicion by wiser players, Kommodus the mafioso deliberately struck out for unexplored ground to avoid these suspicions in Mafia III.
3. Meatballing, or voting for someone for a frivolous reason. Named by the victim of one such accusation in Mafia II.
4. Editing a post without explanation. A dead mafioso in Capo di Tutti Capi posted to the public thread instead of sending a PM, and tried to cover his tracks by removing the incriminating text. Not soon enough, as a townie had seen what he had written, and his fellow mafioso was duly lynched.

In this round so far, you've been guilty of 2, 3 and 4, when in past games just one of these indiscretions was liable to lead to a lynching. The common solution in past games has been to ask for explanations and up the discussion level (mafia invariably win games where there is little discussion), hence my reaction to you. A common gambit, much used by Sasaki, is to put one or more votes on a likely suspect and ask him to explain himself under the threat of execution. This was what you objected to when you declared you don't respond to threats. This isn't some anti-terrorism campaign, this is a Mafia game.

GeneralHankerchief

02-22-2007, 00:58

Hmm, seems we have a tie vote.

All votes are thrown out and there will be a re-vote between Sigurd and Xiahou.

Voting will end in 24 hours.

Csargo

02-22-2007, 01:25

Vote:Sigurd

He told me in the chat the he doesn't have much time lately so that's the reason he has been posting the way he has. Considering it's between Sigurd and Xiahou I have to choose Sigurd because he isn't going to be of any help and Xiahou atleast has been atleast active and isn't randomingly voting.

Pannonian

02-22-2007, 01:26

Vote: Sigurd

pevergreen

02-22-2007, 01:40

Why?

Csargo

02-22-2007, 01:42

Vote: Sigurd

:laugh4:

Faust|

02-22-2007, 02:35

He's a replacement, so most likely not anything. He probably voted for me because he saw my name in the "Regarding Atheism" thread.

I swear, arrogance knows no limits.

Pannonian I get what you're trying to say to me all along, but aren't the mafia allowed to see those rules as well? :inquisitive:

"This was what you objected to when you declared you don't respond to threats. This isn't some anti-terrorism campaign, this is a Mafia game."

I addressed this in my explanation. Read again and then, well...

Kommodus

02-22-2007, 03:02

Vote: Sigurd

Because it looks to me like he's playing the "crazy townie" role again, and I think Xiahou is innocent. Sigurd's behavior has been strange throughout the game. My preliminary analysis, BTW, was inconclusive; I have some suspects, but I'll wait a bit before naming them.

Reenk Roink

02-22-2007, 03:33

I swear, arrogance knows no limits.

Why do you keep trying to baiting me? In this thread and the "Regarding Atheism" one.

I stated a theory why you have voted for me. All you have been able to do (except make fat jokes) is call me "arrogant". In the "Regarding Atheism" thread, I stated that your gave examples of potential infinites instead of actual infinites. You called me "condescending"...

These were not my intentions, and your perceptions are not my responsibility.

I did not call you condescending or arrogant when you said there was something wrong with my question...

Really, you gotta just get over it now...

Csargo

02-22-2007, 03:35

Why do you keep trying to baiting me? In this thread and the "Regarding Atheism" one.

I stated a theory why you have voted for me. All you have been able to do (except make fat jokes) is call me "arrogant". In the "Regarding Atheism" thread, I stated that your gave examples of potential infinites instead of actual infinites. You called me "condescending"...

These were not my intentions, and your perceptions are not my responsibility.

I did not call you condescending or arrogant when you said there was something wrong with my question...

Really, you gotta just get over it now...

hehehe:beam:

ChuggtheSquirrel

02-22-2007, 04:09

Don't know who to vote for... Who should I vote for? :huh:

Faust|

02-22-2007, 04:12

Why do you keep trying to baiting me? In this thread and the "Regarding Atheism" one.

Really, you gotta just get over it now...

I'm not baiting you, "Reenk"

Faust|

02-22-2007, 04:18

I hope you're not taking this personally man. Maybe we have some issues we can work out.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-22-2007, 04:22

Vote: Sigurd

Reasons as noted in previous round.

Faust -- Reenk:

We need to let you guys Holmgang....

Faust|

02-22-2007, 04:28

Vote: Sigurd

We need to let you guys Holmgang....

That would literally be the mistake of his life ~:doh:

CountArach

02-22-2007, 06:43

Whoever last updated the list forgot my vote for Xiahou...

Andres

02-22-2007, 09:11

Vote : Sigurd

For the same reasons I stated before (see posts #438 and #440).

HughTower

02-22-2007, 10:32

Don't know who to vote for... Who should I vote for? :huh:

So, there have been 547 posts devoted to the topic of who should we lynch, there's been well reasoned arguments, pedantic semantic debate, insults, tantrums, tears, laughter, & the whole pantechnicon of human emotion, yet, still,

You don't know for whom to vote? :wall:

In summary (& I'll try & keep this as objective as possible, despite having expressed my arguments on the matter at some length) then, the two bandwagons are on:

Xiahou - for posting out of character to previous games. This has been denied vigorously by the defendant, whose robust defense has led others to vote for him ......for defending robustly. He has since given up defending himself, voted to lynch himself as the only way left to prove his innocence (he feels) & help the town move on in its inquiries is through his death. He left this vote on till the end, even though by lifting it he could have secured his safety & lynch Sigurd. This last tactic saw an uplift in his fortunes with a few crucial votes swinging away from him & onto others.

Sigurd - for bandwagonning, poor reasoning (if any), & hindering the town in its investigations. He has done little to defend himself at any point, claims he has no time at the moment (yet enough to read the thread & vote & mod another game), took his vote off Xiahou in the last round to force a tie (allegedly) but then put it back on when it looked like he himself would be lynched. In contrast to Xiahou, it appears that this behaviour will prove to be his downfall.

pevergreen

02-22-2007, 10:47

Id like to make a note. Voting for oneself is:
1. A mafia tactic
2. a new player feeling s/he is out of their depth, thinking it would help.

Either way, getting rid of that person is good for the town.
I have convinced myself, and shown my arguments.

I do not give up what i believe in easily, and have stated that my votes in this game will not come unless there is a very good reason.

Vote: Xiahou

Sigurd

02-22-2007, 12:38

I guess someone did a mistake...

Tally:
Not voting: 9 (Chugg, Dutch, Fenring, Ignoramus, JimBob, Kommodus, Lord Motep, pever, Warluster)

Xiahou : 6 (ByzantineKnight, CountA, Sasaki, Sigurd, Stig, Xiahou)
Sigurd : 5 (Andres, Kage, Pannonian, Redleg, Seamus)
Kommodus: 1 (CR)
Reenk: 1 (Faust)
Pannoninan: 1 (Ichigo)
Sasaki: 1 (Reenk)

Apparently we should not have this revote...

But should the narrator not consider this, Vote:Sigurd

HughTower

02-22-2007, 13:08

Sigurd

02-22-2007, 14:16

But he won't, & you can pretend it was all a grand mistake. How Machiavellian!
It was not my mistake... and there is no pretending. A mistake is a mistake and I caught it. Should I not have brought this to GH's attention?

HughTower

02-22-2007, 16:28

It was not my mistake... and there is no pretending. A mistake is a mistake and I caught it. Should I not have brought this to GH's attention?

Of course you should bring it GH's attention. You're Mafia & you should want to stay alive. The re-vote looks like it might go against you so it is in your interests that this mistake is brought to light.

Just like when you put your vote back on Xiahou when it looked like you were to going to be lynched.........

Sigurd

02-22-2007, 16:35

You're Mafia
No you are were Mafia... and we lynched you.

Why should we listen to a lynched player? You have not been proven innocent.

Dutch_guy

02-22-2007, 16:37

Of course you should bring it GH's attention. You're Mafia & you should want to stay alive. The re-vote looks like it might go against you so it is in your interests that this mistake is brought to light.

If that mistake is truthfully a mistake, then I daresay bringing that to GH's attention would immediately brand him as a mafioso. If GH confirms this as a valid mistake, I'll vote Xiahou since it' d be quite unfair to lynch someone in a revote when he would have missed out on that revote had the count been correct.

:balloon2:

Andres

02-22-2007, 17:01

OOC:

I counted the votes manually:

Sasaki: 1 (Reenk)
Xiahou: 6 (Sasaki, CA, BK, Stig, Xiahou, Sigurd)
Sigurd: 5 (ATC, Pannonian, Seamus, Redleg, Kagemusha)
Kommodus : 1 (CR)
Reenk: 1 (Faust)
Pannonian : 1 (Ichigo)

Fair is fair and we do want a fair game where the rules are followed, do we?

I for sure don't want to play a game where we take advantage of a human mistake of the gamemaster, who can be excused since he seems to be very occupied with real life.

It would be like cheating. So gentlemen, I suggest we all shut up until GH posts his write-up and that we continue our discussions afterwards.

:bow:

EDIT: can somebody double check, just to make sure I counted correct?

HughTower

02-22-2007, 17:17

Why should we listen to a lynched player? You have not been proven innocent.

You've not been proven innocent either. My lynching is irrelevant. Why are you so concerned about my contribution to the thread?

The evidence against you is stacking up. This game you have been guilty of:

Bandwagonning
Deliberately illogical reasoning
Retaliation voting
Demonstrating a suspicious attachment to staying alive
Lurking for significant periods of the game
Questioning the need for open & honest debate

Dutch guy - I think we're arguing the same, but differently here. In short, if that vote tally is correct, then Xiahou should be lynched. I think it unlikely GH will decide otherwise without very good reason.

I do think (as you do, it appears) that Sigurd is showing an unhealthy devotion to staying alive, & that it does indeed 'brand him as a mafioso'.

EDIT: I posted at the same time as Andres, so I'm not ignoring his call for silence by posting. I will, however, now shut up.

Sasaki Kojiro

02-22-2007, 17:20

His behavior convinced me he was mafia in TGFII...turns out he was town. In my experience he's a lot more careful as mafia.

There's no hurry.

Sigurd

02-22-2007, 17:33

We shall continue this HughTower when GH has decided what to do...
My game is about to end and I will then have more time to "play"...

GeneralHankerchief

02-22-2007, 18:26

Ugh, this is what I get when I decide to follow a tally instead of make my own count.

I shall do a manual count now and report back here with the results.

GeneralHankerchief

02-22-2007, 18:40

Csargo

02-22-2007, 20:50

So, there have been 547 posts devoted to the topic of who should we lynch, there's been well reasoned arguments, pedantic semantic debate, insults, tantrums, tears, laughter, & the whole pantechnicon of human emotion, yet, still,

You don't know for whom to vote? :wall:

In summary (& I'll try & keep this as objective as possible, despite having expressed my arguments on the matter at some length) then, the two bandwagons are on:

Xiahou - for posting out of character to previous games. This has been denied vigorously by the defendant, whose robust defense has led others to vote for him ......for defending robustly. He has since given up defending himself, voted to lynch himself as the only way left to prove his innocence (he feels) & help the town move on in its inquiries is through his death. He left this vote on till the end, even though by lifting it he could have secured his safety & lynch Sigurd. This last tactic saw an uplift in his fortunes with a few crucial votes swinging away from him & onto others.

Sigurd - for bandwagonning, poor reasoning (if any), & hindering the town in its investigations. He has done little to defend himself at any point, claims he has no time at the moment (yet enough to read the thread & vote & mod another game), took his vote off Xiahou in the last round to force a tie (allegedly) but then put it back on when it looked like he himself would be lynched. In contrast to Xiahou, it appears that this behaviour will prove to be his downfall.

That's a very one sided summary.

Stig

02-22-2007, 20:54

Hughtower supports Xiahou as it seems, that means this is a good lynch.

Xiahou

02-22-2007, 21:08

I confirm Sigurd's and Andres' tally.

It seems as if the ongoing tally excluded CountArach's vote for Xiahou.

Xiahou has been lynched, I shall write a proper description when I come home.

Vote summary (only the Sigurd/Xiahou votes, I didn't bother counting the others):

Xiahou: 6 (Sasaki Kojiro, Stig, Sigurd Fafnesbane, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Xiahou)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 5 (AndresTheCunning, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh, Redleg, Kagemusha)

Sorry about that. :wall:
Now, what can we glean from this? Was I mafia? Why did people vote for me? Why did some unvote me?

Hughtower supports Xiahou as it seems, that means this is a good lynch.
That doesn't really make any sense- we can't both be mafia. Out of the two of us, at least 1 and possibly both are innocent.

Stig

02-22-2007, 21:23

That doesn't really make any sense- we can't both be mafia. Out of the two of us, at least 1 and possibly both are innocent.
And why is that?

GeneralHankerchief

02-22-2007, 23:03

During the voting phase, the skies grew progressively darker. This was particularly strange, since the weather forecast showed no sign of rain or even cloud cover anywhere near the Frontroom.

Chief of Police Beirut noticed this meteorological phenomenon, and therefore reluctantly called a re-vote between the two leading vote-getters, Sigurd Fafnesbane and Xiahou. "Be quick about it," he advised the townies.

Much to his relief (and somewhat embarassment), someone discovered that he had forgotten to count one vote for Xiahou, however, and Beirut (with a sigh of relief, this storm looked bad) quickly called an ending to the voting and instructed Xiahou to make his way to the execution platform where he would be torn apart by horses.

The animals, however, were thoroughly spooked at the eerie weather conditions and took forever to cooperate. Xiahou was the only one who had seemed grateful for this. By now the other townies had noticed the sky, which was about as black as the inside of a just-fired gun, and were thanking whatever god existed that the rain had not opened up on them yet.

Beirut even broke tradition and did not ask if Xiahou had any final words, absentmindedly checking to see if the ropes were secure. He fired his gun, the horses ran in opposite directions, and there was that terrible ripping sound. The rain had still not shown itself. Maybe, if it held off for a little longer, he would be able to spend the storm in his house, with a nice toasty fire and cup of hot chocolate, listening to some fine Pink Floyd.

However, at that moment, a flash of lightning could be seen in the sky. Five of them, to be exact. And at the next moment, five piles of ash were seen on the ground, notably where Ignoramus, Lord Motep of Kendermore, JimBob, Warluster, and Fenring were standing a second ago.

The townspeople observed this development and shrugged. Some weren't aware that those people were even present in the first place. They made their way home, the skies back to their cloudless blue state in seconds.

Here is the vote summary for Round 4:

Xiahou: 6 (Sasaki Kojiro, Stig, Sigurd Fafnesbane, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Xiahou) :skull:
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 5 (AndresTheCunning, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh, Redleg, Kagemusha)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Reenk Roink)
Reenk Roink: 1 (Faust|)
Kommodus: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
Pannonian: 1 (Ichigo)

Abstained: 4 (pevergreen, ChuggtheSquirrel, Dutch_guy)
Didn't vote: 6 (Ignoramus, JimBob, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Warluster, Fenring, Kommodus)

(for my records: Kommodus missed the main session but voted in the run-off)

~~~~~~~~~
Still alive: (18)
Kagemusha
Sasaki Kojiro
Stig
Ichigo
Pannonian
Crazed Rabbit
Redleg
Reenk Roink
pevergreen
CountArach
ByzantineKnight
AndresTheCunning
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Seamus Fermanagh
Dutch_guy
Faust| (replaces Destroyer of Hope who suicided)
ChuggtheSquirrel
Kommodus

Wrath of God:
Ignoramus
Lord Motep of Kendermore
Warluster
JimBob
Fenring

Killed:
UltraWar
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot
Zalmoxis
Orb
Rythmic
sapi
Sir Boo
Sir Moody

Executed:
HughTower
discovery1
Caius Flaminius
Xiahou

Stig

02-22-2007, 23:08

WoG way to go, atlast less lurkers

Sasaki Kojiro

02-22-2007, 23:40

Yikes, we're down to 18 already.

Csargo

02-22-2007, 23:49

Losing 6 in one round that's bad. :sweatdrop:

Motep

02-23-2007, 01:25

Typical...just hours before I get on...You kill me. Just peachy...

ChuggtheSquirrel

02-23-2007, 04:14

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 05:13

Im just failing to see how three seperate vote counts can miss me?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1437599&postcount=556

Sasaki Kojiro

02-23-2007, 05:27

Im just failing to see how three seperate vote counts can miss me?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1437599&postcount=556

There's no vote in that post :inquisitive:

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 05:46

edited out :laugh4:

Not its not suspicious, look at the discussion down below

Pannonian

02-23-2007, 06:02

GH, please WoG pevergreen for posting screenshots. From post #1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1421397&postcount=1).

- No screenshots. Of anything.

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 06:05

Fair enough.

WoG me.

Csargo

02-23-2007, 06:11

GH, please WoG pevergreen for posting screenshots. From post #1 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1421397&postcount=1).

OOOOOOOOOH I'm so voting you next round.

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 06:16

He can hold the rules up if he wants. Not much use WoG a townie though.

I posted that screenie to prove i voted. Apparently Sasaki couldnt see my vote. Can you see it in the screenshot?

Csargo

02-23-2007, 06:23

He can hold the rules up if he wants. Not much use WoG a townie though.

I posted that screenie to prove i voted. Apparently Sasaki couldnt see my vote. Can you see it in the screenshot?

Well that's why I'm voting him a screenshot of a post doesn't hurt anything, and well for breaking the rules all I can say is let GH decide it's his game. Plus that's one less voting period we have to find the mafia.

Pannonian

02-23-2007, 06:24

OOOOOOOOOH I'm so voting you next round.
Considering what pevergreen did in this game was what he did in Capo to spoil it, I think I'm justified in pointing it out. Pevergreen was warned by Seamus in Capo for privately sending game-spoiling information, then I committed suicide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1419121&postcount=2589) (as a townie) to avoid further prejudicing the game when he posted a reference to this in the public thread. A stickied thread was created to debate the ethics of Mafia-play raised by Capo, and GH specifically amended his rules to include the above. Pevergreen has had ample warning that screenshots are not allowed, and I'm not going to suicide myself a second time just because he won't observe the rules.

FWIW, pevergreen's screenshot was of his vote in post #556 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1437599&postcount=556).

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 06:25

And I am aware now (forgot) that posting of screenshots is not allowed, and am happy to let GH WoG me for breaking a rule.

Csargo

02-23-2007, 06:27

Considering what pevergreen did in this game was what he did in Capo to spoil it, I think I'm justified in pointing it out. Pevergreen was warned by Seamus in Capo for privately sending game-spoiling information, then I committed suicide (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1419121&postcount=2589) (as a townie) to avoid further prejudicing the game when he posted a reference to this in the public thread. A stickied thread was created to debate the ethics of Mafia-play raised by Capo, and GH specifically amended his rules to include the above. Pevergreen has had ample warning that screenshots are not allowed, and I'm not going to suicide myself a second time just because he won't observe the rules.

FWIW, pevergreen's screenshot was of his vote in post #556 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1437599&postcount=556).

How does it hurt the game other than breaking the rule?

Pannonian

02-23-2007, 06:28

And I am aware now (forgot) that posting of screenshots is not allowed, and am happy to let GH WoG me for breaking a rule.
If you want out of the game, commit suicide in the night phase (as I did in Capo). But whatever you do, please delete that damn screenshot as it's stretching the page and I don't like scrollbars at the bottom of my browser.

Sasaki Kojiro

02-23-2007, 06:29

I still don't get the reasoning behind not allowing screenshots of posts that are in the fricken thread at all.

I was joking about not seeing your vote.

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 06:34

My mistake for not understanding your humour.

SS removed for ease of browsing.

Pannonian

02-23-2007, 06:36

How does it hurt the game other than breaking the rule?
Were you affected by his breaking the rule in Capo? I was. I was extremely interested in that game before he PMed the screenshot to The Stranger and seriously annoyed Seamus, then posted a reference in the public thread which spoiled the game for me. Not only me either, as Louis VI also considered suicide because of the game-spoiling information. I sent a couple of very annoyed PMs to pevergreen, quoted in that Capo post I linked to. For other players I would advise them to remove the screenshot before GH took action, but pevergreen doesn't deserve latitude for this type of offence. Why didn't he just link to the post as I did?

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 06:38

Sasaki Kojiro

02-23-2007, 06:40

I posted screenshots of posts from the thread in capo...

what's the big deal?

Csargo

02-23-2007, 06:43

Were you affected by his breaking the rule in Capo? I was. I was extremely interested in that game before he PMed the screenshot to The Stranger and seriously annoyed Seamus, then posted a reference in the public thread which spoiled the game for me. Not only me either, as Louis VI also considered suicide because of the game-spoiling information. I sent a couple of very annoyed PMs to pevergreen, quoted in that Capo post I linked to. For other players I would advise them to remove the screenshot before GH took action, but pevergreen doesn't deserve latitude for this type of offence. Why didn't he just link to the post as I did?

Truthfully I didn't notice it since I suicided for personaly reason's which I regret now, but still I could understand him taking a screenshot of a PM saying he was mafia or the detective I would hope he would get WoG'd for that. The fact of the matter is his screenshot in no way hinders the progress of this game any which was my orignal question which you avioded answering for some reason.

Pannonian

02-23-2007, 06:46

What you left out of the post https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1419121&postcount=2589 is that i then apologised many times to you and seamus for my actions, edited my post and then proceeded to ban myself from the org for at least a week.

The pevergreen affair
or Why I committed suicide

I was explaining my actions, which were widely misunderstood as a desire to prove my towniness, when it was just me being PO'd at having my game spoiled. The post did not try to explain the actions of anyone else. Why would I explain the actions of anyone else? If they wanted it explained, I'm sure they can do a better job of it than me.

Pannonian

02-23-2007, 06:51

Truthfully I didn't notice it since I suicided for personaly reason's which I regret now, but still I could understand him taking a screenshot of a PM saying he was mafia or the detective I would hope he would get WoG'd for that. The fact of the matter is his screenshot in no way hinders the progress of this game any which was my orignal question which you avioded answering for some reason.
If the question is why I want pevergreen wogged for a screenshot that doesn't affect the game, it's because I am personally annoyed by his breaking the same rule that caused me to suicide in Capo. Does this make sense to you? It makes sense to me. It should also make sense to Seamus and Sasaki, who as host and Wolf were also personally affected by pevergreen's indiscretions in Capo.

Sasaki Kojiro

02-23-2007, 06:53

I think we should let past grievances drop.

ByzantineKnight

02-23-2007, 07:02

I think we should let past grievances drop.

Seconded

Csargo

02-23-2007, 07:26

Andres

02-23-2007, 09:43

I didn't realise it was a screenshot, until Sasaki's comment made it clear that it was pevergreen's post before he edited it.

If you interprete the rules strictly, pevergreen should be WoG'ed. Pevergreen participated in Capo, so he was well aware what effect the posting of a screenshot would have.

On the other hand, it is a screenie from a post made in the thread. Anybody could have seen it. The non-edited post was only seen by those who were online and looking at the tread at that time. Now we have all seen the original post.

It's a difficult one: 1) strictly interpreting the rules, it is a violation and pevergreen should be WoG'ed 2) it is a post from the thread, so technically everyone could have seen the non-edited post. So the screenshot revealed by pevergreen is just revealing information that is inherently public. He didn't reveal some secret, it was a post from the thread.

But, the final decision is for GH. It's up to him to decide if he's going to be strict or not.

Being strict has the advantage of being clear. It gives certainty. Violate the rule = WoG, no discussion, no excuses. Not being strict allows to insert common sense in judgments, but can also lead to people feeling treated unfair: "I got WoG'ed and he didn't get WoG'ed for the same violation. It's not fair!". :juggle:

Anyway, pevergreen deserves a good whipping :whip:

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 10:08

Owww Stop whipping me! :pain: :laugh4:

HughTower

02-23-2007, 11:24

That doesn't really make any sense- we [Hughtower & Xiahou] can't both be mafia. Out of the two of us, at least 1 and possibly both are innocent.

To which Stig replied,

And why is that?

In answer to his question,

Rules:

- This is mafia at its most vanilla. Two mafiosi, one Detective. The mafia get to kill two people a night no matter how many of them are alive, and the Detective gets to investigate one person a night.

And to use his own words,

I'm not intending to imply insult or judgment here but I am curious to know in order to be able to respond to your posts in an appropriate manner, so please forgive what appears to be, but in fact is not intended as, an insulting question: Are you stupid? - Helm :laugh4: :laugh4:

Sorry. I'm not very good at seeing the arguments in non-mini mafia games. :embarassed:

Don't be embarassed or sorry, I was shouting for effect more than anything. My point really is that your involvement in discussion(as a townie) is crucial, even if you just summarise what others have said. It doesn't have to be right, it just has to present a PoV.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-23-2007, 14:23

What you left out of the post https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1419121&postcount=2589 is that i then apologised many times to you and seamus for my actions, edited my post and then proceeded to ban myself from the org for at least a week.

He did apologize and did make himself scarce for a bit. I thought this sufficient "punishment," and will gladly invite Pev' to play in the next rendition.

My screenshot rule for that version WILL permit screenies of previous posts within the thread -- it's public record at that point, as our noble moderator notes -- but will prohibit most of the other uses.

Pev', you really do need to keep the game rules clearly in focus for each game. This mis-cue is, of course, irrelevant in content but you don't want to get sloppy and damage someone's enjoyment of the game.

Now, to get back to business:

For those who haven't thought through the mathematics of a General's classic before, I present the following reminder.

18 remain. Assuming no dead mafia , that means:

18 - 2 = 16
16 - 1 = 15

15 - 2 = 13
13 - 1 = 12

12 - 2 = 10
10 - 1 = 9

9 - 2 = 7
7 - 1 = 6 (mafia win as 3-3 tie leaves them unlynchable).

That means that we MUST kill at least one mafioso in the next 4 votes (or have killed one already) or the game is lost.

Carefully analyze their votes, their posts, their style -- we are into the mid-game and must produce results for a townie victory in the endgame.

HughTower

02-23-2007, 15:00

For those who haven't thought through the mathematics of a General's classic before, I present the following reminder.

18 remain. Assuming no dead mafia , that means:

18 - 2 = 16
16 - 1 = 15

15 - 2 = 13
13 - 1 = 12

12 - 2 = 10
10 - 1 = 9

9 - 2 = 7
7 - 1 = 6 (mafia win as 3-3 tie leaves them unlynchable).

That means that we MUST kill at least one mafioso in the next 4 votes (or have killed one already) or the game is lost.

Carefully analyze their votes, their posts, their style -- we are into the mid-game and must produce results for a townie victory in the endgame.

Seamus - I have two issues (& am willing to stand corrected) with this reasoning.

There are 2 mafiosi in this game, so surely there is 2-2 tie at 4 people left (e.g. 5 votes time).
If we don't lynch, then we have a maximum of 7 votes surely.

Am I wrong?

Faust|

02-23-2007, 17:28

If the question is why I want pevergreen wogged for a screenshot that doesn't affect the game, it's because I am personally annoyed by his breaking the same rule that caused me to suicide in Capo. Does this make sense to you? It makes sense to me. It should also make sense to Seamus and Sasaki, who as host and Wolf were also personally affected by pevergreen's indiscretions in Capo.

This is twice that you've taken a solitary, unyielding, and some would say almost frivolous by-the-books stand (the first was in response to my unconventional vote). You must realize that by doing so you've defined yourself to us very specifically. The first time, you also took it upon yourself to delineate exactly how one should and should not go about hunting mafia. The extremity of these comments is obviously not very necessary even once... and you've commented like this frequently. Just noting this here.

Pannonian

02-23-2007, 17:42

This is twice that you've taken a solitary, unyielding, and some would say almost frivolous by-the-books stand (the first was in response to my unconventional vote). You must realize that by doing so you've defined yourself to us very specifically. The first time, you also took it upon yourself to delineate exactly how one should and should not go about hunting mafia. The extremity of these comments is obviously not very necessary even once... and you've commented like this frequently. Just noting this here.
You should have seen what I did in Capo, if you think this is a solitary, unyielding and almost frivolous by-the-books stand. Or Mafia III for that matter. In M3 I was wrong about Uesugi, but my style led to my murder in both M3 and M5 (thank you Kommodus and Reenk). However, in Capo I was right about pevergreen and Sasaki, in much the same style, perhaps advanced a tad due to my increased experience with links and spoilers (which neatened up the post, allowing me to make more complex arguments).

As for the delineation of how to go about hunting mafia - my tips were just common sense, taken for granted by most of the players here. Try this glossary (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=70374), or my numerous posts on the subject in Capo (or M3 for that matter), which explore the subject in even more detail.

GeneralHankerchief

02-23-2007, 22:15

pevergreen - to answer your original question, your vote was not included in the tally because it was part of the run-off vote, which was null after I realized that there had been a miscount.

As far as the screenshot, I realize that it does little harm and has little, if any impact on the game, but rules are rules. Sorry, my friend.

Kills will be up shortly.

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 22:18

As far as the screenshot, I realize that it does little harm and has little, if any impact on the game, but rules are rules. Sorry, my friend.

No harm done, I congratulate you on your firm stance in this matter. ~:cheers:

Good Luck Town.

Reenk Roink

02-23-2007, 22:32

We all make mistakes, and pevergreen gets my nod for his integrity. :bow: See you in the next game man.

Let's give Dr. Zoidberg some food! :laugh4:

pevergreen

02-23-2007, 23:24

Whats this? Two meals in one week!

Help Friends, a hamster tricked me!

I have a degree in muderonomy AND murderology.

GeneralHankerchief

02-24-2007, 00:11

Day breaks in the Frontroom. All is quiet. The usual rising noises that pevergreen made were nowhere to be heard. He had gone to bed and simply never woke up.

In another house the TV was on. And its owner was plotting. That owner, who happened to be the mafioso, grinned. So far, everything was going to plan. With every death, a new name had surfaced, leading him closer and closer to his goal. It was very near now. A few innocent villagers had died, but it was collateral damage. They were insignificant in this deadly treasure hunt.

The mafioso, bored with what he was currently watching, grabbed the remote and switched the channel repeatedly. He flicked until the Animal Planet was on, and put the remote down. That was a great channel.

Meanwhile, on the floor directly in front of the mafioso, ChuggtheSquirrel was finally showing some signs of awakening. It was really about time. When the mafioso noticed this, he sighed and put Animal Planet on mute. Chugg watched with panic as the mafioso put on his black leather gloves and attached a silencer to his gun. The look turned to amazement when the mafioso took his hood, thus revealing himself for the first time to Chugg.

However, amazement quickly turned back to panic when he saw the mafioso opening a familiar black suitcase, which displayed a varied array of syringes. The mafioso, noticing Chugg's look of horror, grinned.

"Yes, they're beautiful, aren't they?"

Chugg could say nothing (his mouth being taped shut), only able to watch as the mafioso filled one of the syringes with a greenish substance.

"Don't worry my friend, this is only a rather strong truth serum. I know you're not stupid and you know what I want, but I am unsure if you will tell me willingly. So this is a back-up plan."

Chugg immediately started bobbing his head to the left and right furiously. Obviously he was trying to deny everything; to buy him time. The mafioso, however, ignored this. Saying nothing, he injected the truth serum into the helpless Chugg and ripped the tape from his mouth.

"Now Chugg," he said after Chugg was finished yelping, "I need locations, dates, and most of all... names." He said the last bit with an evil grin. Chugg, under the control of the truth serum, couldn't stop himself as he spilled his guts to his captor.

"Thank you Chugg, you've been very helpful," said the mafioso, dusting off his suit. "That wasn't that hard, was it?" Chugg, drugged out, could do little as the mafioso shot him square between the eyes.

Around that same time, a man walked into the local tavern. He was a pale man with thin lips, and was wearing an Italian suit. He put on a good face of alarm for the bartender, who was happy to have a paying customer.

"Did you hear that gunshot? I think I saw a guy running outside! Do you have a phone on you?"

"Hold back, son. I didn't hear anything, so are you sure you ain't just being paranoid? Maybe there was a silencer on the thing."

The mafioso shook his head. He had definitely heard a shot.

"Okay, if you're sure, then I'll get Beirut myself. Stay here." He left the tavern, leaving the mafioso alone with his target.

"Hello Faust|, he said, mind if I sit with you?"

Faust nodded, and the mafioso took the stool to Faust's left. He tried a stab at conversation.

"You look nervous, my friend. Care for some more wine? It'll be on me." Faust nodded absentmindedly, and the mafioso got up, walked around to the other side of the bar and poured some for Faust, depositing some money into the bartender's cash register. After about a minute of silence, the mafioso's phone rang.

"Hello? ...yes, everything is going all right here. I'm almost done here... yes. Okay." He hung up, returning to Faust.

"Well Faust, I'm surprised that you haven't recognized me." Faust stared. He had never seen this man before in his life.

"Now, come on, you don't remember that brothel, back in those days, in Las Vegas?" the pale mafioso asked. Finally, there was some realization on Faust's face. He stuttered.

"N-no, that's impossible... it can't be y-you!"

"Oh, but it is."

"B-but, you d-died! Those f-female secret agents! They choked you with their breasts!"

The mafioso laughed. "Take a good look at me, my friend. Do I look dead? Let me tell you the real story. It shouldn't surprise you that those agents got rather... excited when they were on me." The mafioso paused, grinning at this particular recollection. "You shouldn't have left the room so fast. We had a rather interesting... conversation afterwards." He started to laugh now. "But we both know what needs to be done right now. You are too much of a danger for our cause."

Faust just stared, totally bewildered. "What cause? I don't know anything about a cause. There was never a cause!" The mafioso stopped smiling at this.

"You know very well we are talking about a particular object." Faust stiffened. This was not going well. It got much worse as the mafioso took out his gun and fired a bullet that landed between Faust's eyes. As blood seeped out of the corpse's body, the mafioso laughed again.

"Too bad there's nobody here to serve me. I here the meatballs here are excellent." He made his way out of the tavern shortly before the bartender and the Chief of Police returned.

Later that day, a particularly angry Chief of Police Beirut gathered the remaining villagers in the town square and was about to make an announcement, having just finished yelling at the bartender for being so stupid.

"Gentlemen," he began, "it is of the utmost importance that you execute the right person. So please be correct. The condemned this time will be executed by poison. This is a slow-acting poison that causes excruciating pain, so please make sure that the recepient deserves what he is getting."

~~~~~~~~~~~

Still alive: (15)
Kagemusha
Sasaki Kojiro
Stig
Ichigo
Pannonian
Crazed Rabbit
Redleg
Reenk Roink
CountArach
ByzantineKnight
AndresTheCunning
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Seamus Fermanagh
Dutch_guy
Kommodus

Wrath of God:
Ignoramus
Lord Motep of Kendermore
Warluster
JimBob
Fenring
pevergreen

Killed:
UltraWar
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot
Zalmoxis
Orb
Rythmic
sapi
Sir Boo
Sir Moody
ChuggtheSquirrel
Faust| (replaces Destroyer of Hope who suicided)

Executed:
HughTower
discovery1
Caius Flaminius
Xiahou

Stig

02-24-2007, 00:37

Vote: Sigurd
Xiahou last night, Sigurd this one, if you want a reason read all the post on earlier pages.

Pannonian

02-24-2007, 01:26

Vote: Crazed Rabbit
Lurking for almost the entire game, popping up only to vote and avoid WoG, then disappearing again. Can you explain your behaviour?

ByzantineKnight

02-24-2007, 02:19

Nooooo Chugg!!

Vote: Sigurd

For reasons posted above.

CountArach

02-24-2007, 02:38

Vote: Pannonian

Seems far too eager to lynch Crazed Rabbit.

Redleg

02-24-2007, 03:27

I am more inclined to lynch Sigurd at this time because of the previous discussion in the thread. So

Vote:Sigurd

Csargo

02-24-2007, 03:40

Nooooo Chugg!!

Vote: Sigurd

For reasons posted above.

I wouldn't put it past you to kill your own brother.

ByzantineKnight

02-24-2007, 04:11

I wouldn't put it past you to kill your own brother.

Why would I?

Csargo

02-24-2007, 04:12

Why would I?

Why not?

pevergreen

02-24-2007, 04:18

That seems to be BZK's response in every game

How would I/Why would I?

ChuggtheSquirrel

02-24-2007, 04:59

I died. Ouch.

Oh, what's with all these killing me by these Nut Seller/Tvs with Animal Planet on? Not that I actually mind. :laugh4:

Seamus Fermanagh

02-24-2007, 05:08

Did we get a note from the General as to why Dutch is AWOL on votes?

No vote from me, yet. In order of concern, I'd like feedback from:

Rabbit: Guerilla voting/posting.

Kommo: Not providing quality info, despite 4.35 rounds of voting.

Redleg: A tad quiet by his normal standards.

Reenk: All Sasaki -- all the time. Either reveal and give us the evidence for a lynch, or provide a compelling case. So far, no soap -- and I am always suspicious of Sasaki.

Pannonian

02-24-2007, 05:10

Vote: Pannonian

Seems far too eager to lynch Crazed Rabbit.
What do you mean?

Csargo

02-24-2007, 05:13

I'm going with Pannonian. His defense when threatened seems strange from my point of view.

Vote:Pannonian.

Redleg

02-24-2007, 05:18

Redleg: A tad quiet by his normal standards.

.

Yes indeed, A house to sell, preparing to move to Kansas City, transition to a new job with the railroad. So don't count on much activity on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. Working two jobs for a week. New Hire Orientation for the BNSF Railroad in the day, working the production supervision job for swing shift, and attempting to get 4 to 5 hours of sleep to start the cycle over again. So A quick read, and a quick vote.

About 4 hours of internet time each of those days, during the production job time.

So I don't mind being lynched - but it would be a wasted one at this time. Completely pro-townie this game, just not enough time to get involved in the game like some of the others.

Kommodus

02-24-2007, 05:22

Hm, well, I'm suspicious of several people at this point. But for now:

Vote: Pannonian

Simply because his posting habits are way off norm.

However, this will require further examination. Sorry for not providing more useful information, guys. I returned from my latest trip with a nasty cold, and it's a whole lotta no fun. :sick2:

Pannonian

02-24-2007, 05:54

I'm going with Pannonian. His defense when threatened seems strange from my point of view.

Vote:Pannonian.
Because I asked for more detail so I would know what I need to explain? CA's accusation was based on me being too eager to lynch Crazed Rabbit, when my vote seemed (to me) not much more than exploratory, prompting Rabbit to explain his posting record of 3 votes so far, just one more than the absentees who've been wogged. If you're interested in checking them out, they're #13 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1421443&postcount=13) where he says he wants to play, #82 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1425916&postcount=82) where he voted Redleg, and #443 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435130&postcount=443) where he votes Kommodus.

FWIW, here are the voting records so far. Xiahou's execution got special treatment from GH, which may or may not mean anything. GH has been known to put clues into his descriptions in the past, such as contempt from Beirut when the lynchee is mafia (M2 or 3), or a quizzical look concerning non-revealment if the lynchee is a detective (M5).

R1 vote, post #154 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1427103&postcount=154)

HughTower: 5 (Sigurd Fafnesbane, Kagemusha, Xiahou, Seamus Fermanagh, Ichigo)
Sasaki Kojiro: 4 (Redleg, Stig, sapi, Reenk Roink)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 3 (HughTower, Orb, AndresTheCunning)
Reenk Roink: 3 (discovery1, Destroyer of Hope, Pannonian)
pevergreen: 3 (ByzantineKnight, Sir Moody, Caius Flaminius)
Redleg: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
AndresTheCunning: 1 (Kommodus)
Orb: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Abstain: 6 (Zalmoxis, Dutch_guy, CountArach, Rythmic, ChuggTheSquirrel, pevergreen)

Didn't vote: 6 (Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Sir Boo, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster)

R2 vote, post #263 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1430604&postcount=263)

discovery1: 5 (Sigurd Fafnesbane, Destroyer of Hope, Sir Moody, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh)
Ichigo: 2 (Redleg, Xiahou)
pevergreen: 2 (AndresTheCunning, Stig)
Destroyer of Hope: 1 (discovery1)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Reenk Roink)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 1 (Kommodus)
Redleg: 1 (Ichigo)
Xiahou: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Abstained: 7 (Dutch_guy, pevergreen, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Rythmic, Sir Boo, Caius Flaminius)

Didn't vote: 9 (Kagemusha, Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Crazed Rabbit, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster, sapi, ChuggtheSquirrel)

R3 vote, post #374 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1433042&postcount=374)

Caius Flaminius: 5 (Pannonian, Stig, CountArach, Ichigo, Sir Moody)
Sasaki Kojiro: 2 (Xiahou, Reenk Roink)
Stig: 1 (Caius Flaminius)
Xiahou: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Ichigo: 1 (Redleg)
Crazed Rabbit: 1 (Kagemusha)
Abstained: 3 (Kommodus, pevergreen, ByzantineKnight)

Didn't vote: 13 (Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Sir Boo, Crazed Rabbit, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster, AndresTheCunning, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Seamus Fermanagh, Dutch_guy, Destroyer of Hope)

R4 vote, post #573 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1438451&postcount=573)

Xiahou: 6 (Sasaki Kojiro, Stig, Sigurd Fafnesbane, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Xiahou)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 5 (AndresTheCunning, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh, Redleg, Kagemusha)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Reenk Roink)
Reenk Roink: 1 (Faust|)
Kommodus: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
Pannonian: 1 (Ichigo)
Abstained: 4 (pevergreen, ChuggtheSquirrel, Dutch_guy)

Didn't vote: 6 (Ignoramus, JimBob, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Warluster, Fenring, Kommodus)
(for my records: Kommodus missed the main session but voted in the run-off)

Csargo

02-24-2007, 06:42

Because I asked for more detail so I would know what I need to explain? CA's accusation was based on me being too eager to lynch Crazed Rabbit, when my vote seemed (to me) not much more than exploratory, prompting Rabbit to explain his posting record of 3 votes so far, just one more than the absentees who've been wogged. If you're interested in checking them out, they're #13 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1421443&postcount=13) where he says he wants to play, #82 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1425916&postcount=82) where he voted Redleg, and #443 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1435130&postcount=443) where he votes Kommodus.

FWIW, here are the voting records so far. Xiahou's execution got special treatment from GH, which may or may not mean anything. GH has been known to put clues into his descriptions in the past, such as contempt from Beirut when the lynchee is mafia (M2 or 3), or a quizzical look concerning non-revealment if the lynchee is a detective (M5).

R1 vote, post #154 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1427103&postcount=154)

HughTower: 5 (Sigurd Fafnesbane, Kagemusha, Xiahou, Seamus Fermanagh, Ichigo)
Sasaki Kojiro: 4 (Redleg, Stig, sapi, Reenk Roink)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 3 (HughTower, Orb, AndresTheCunning)
Reenk Roink: 3 (discovery1, Destroyer of Hope, Pannonian)
pevergreen: 3 (ByzantineKnight, Sir Moody, Caius Flaminius)
Redleg: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
AndresTheCunning: 1 (Kommodus)
Orb: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Abstain: 6 (Zalmoxis, Dutch_guy, CountArach, Rythmic, ChuggTheSquirrel, pevergreen)

Didn't vote: 6 (Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Sir Boo, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster)

R2 vote, post #263 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1430604&postcount=263)

discovery1: 5 (Sigurd Fafnesbane, Destroyer of Hope, Sir Moody, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh)
Ichigo: 2 (Redleg, Xiahou)
pevergreen: 2 (AndresTheCunning, Stig)
Destroyer of Hope: 1 (discovery1)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Reenk Roink)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 1 (Kommodus)
Redleg: 1 (Ichigo)
Xiahou: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Abstained: 7 (Dutch_guy, pevergreen, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Rythmic, Sir Boo, Caius Flaminius)

Didn't vote: 9 (Kagemusha, Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Crazed Rabbit, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster, sapi, ChuggtheSquirrel)

R3 vote, post #374 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1433042&postcount=374)

Caius Flaminius: 5 (Pannonian, Stig, CountArach, Ichigo, Sir Moody)
Sasaki Kojiro: 2 (Xiahou, Reenk Roink)
Stig: 1 (Caius Flaminius)
Xiahou: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Ichigo: 1 (Redleg)
Crazed Rabbit: 1 (Kagemusha)
Abstained: 3 (Kommodus, pevergreen, ByzantineKnight)

Didn't vote: 13 (Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Sir Boo, Crazed Rabbit, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster, AndresTheCunning, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Seamus Fermanagh, Dutch_guy, Destroyer of Hope)

R4 vote, post #573 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1438451&postcount=573)

Xiahou: 6 (Sasaki Kojiro, Stig, Sigurd Fafnesbane, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Xiahou)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 5 (AndresTheCunning, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh, Redleg, Kagemusha)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Reenk Roink)
Reenk Roink: 1 (Faust|)
Kommodus: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
Pannonian: 1 (Ichigo)
Abstained: 4 (pevergreen, ChuggtheSquirrel, Dutch_guy)

Didn't vote: 6 (Ignoramus, JimBob, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Warluster, Fenring, Kommodus)
(for my records: Kommodus missed the main session but voted in the run-off)

I think that proves my point clearly.

Csargo

02-24-2007, 06:57

Sasaki has suspiciously been absent from the thread.

CountArach

02-24-2007, 07:07

He hasn't been in any of the threads though really.

Csargo

02-24-2007, 07:10

He hasn't been in any of the threads though really.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1440212&postcount=143 :sweatdrop:

CountArach

02-24-2007, 07:49

Hmmm... 2.5 hours ago eh? This is... unlike Sasaki....

HughTower

02-24-2007, 11:01

I think that proves my point clearly.

Which is what exactly, Miss Marple? That he defends himself vigorously & logically?

He acted the same way when accused in CdiT & in no way is out of character.

Why is it that you want to lynch someone that is so clearly analytical & logical? Are you frightened that he might turn his attention on to you? Why don't give Sigurd a nudge, who both spilled the beans on the miscount in order to protect himself from the lynch & then also swapped his vote around to make sure he came on the winning side?

Stig

02-24-2007, 11:14

There's little you can say from the votes:

When Sigurd voted he voted for the one that would be lynched
Reenk has always been voting Sasaki
Dutch and Chugg haven't voted for someone yet. (there could be more that have done this tho)

Dutch_guy

02-24-2007, 12:53

Did we get a note from the General as to why Dutch is AWOL on votes?

Well, posting but not voting is simply abstaining, in my book at least. Were I to write vote abstain under each post, I'd be in the same situation. That said, I simply don't find the arguments against, say, Sigurd to be compelling enough (for me, at least) to warrant a vote. Now Pannonian does make a good case for himself, which Ichigo finds enough to warrant his vote. Personally I haven't come to any such conclusions yet.

EDIT: added Seamus' name to the quote

:balloon2:

Pannonian

02-24-2007, 13:31

Well, posting but not voting is simply abstaining, in my book at least. Were I to write vote abstain under each post, I'd be in the same situation. That said, I simply don't find the arguments against, say, Sigurd to be compelling enough (for me, at least) to warrant a vote. Now Pannonian does make a good case for himself, which Ichigo finds enough to warrant his vote. Personally I haven't come to any such conclusions yet.

Let's just hope someone else will drive the discussion after I'm executed. Having seen several games die a death because of player inactivity, it annoyed me to see new Mafia games popping up constantly even as their hosts were still supposedly committed to a major game. It reached a peak with the 3rd round, when 13 out of 27 players still alive didn't vote or even make a post, and a number of those who did vote did so with a terse "I agree with Pannonian" comment. IIRC my activity picked up after that round, as I tried to gee up the players and at least make a good game of this - Capo players will know I did the same in that game too. If that gets me lynched, I hope the game doesn't stagnate as it's threatened to do.

As I've said so many times in the past, starting with Mafia III, get the lurkers talking. Whoever wins, at least make this a good, active game.

Andres

02-24-2007, 17:35

Well, for the reasons I stated before:

Vote : Sigurd.

Sasaki is indeed absent for his habit. On the other hand, the same can be said for others (Redleg and Kommodus, who offered real life as an excuse).

It also seems a bit odd to me that Sasaki never questioned Sigurd's behaviour and that he tries to lure the attention away from Sigurd towards other possible lynch candidates. I would like to hear some explanation about that. But for now, I stick to Sigurd for the reasons already mentioned in posts 438 and 440 (page 15 of the thread).

As for Pannonian, him being upset about pevergreens' screenshot is no different than his anger about a similar incident during CDTC, so I think it's a matter of principle for him: he doesn't want to play a game were people don't follow the rules. I still have my questions about his 'silly' mistake at the very beginning of the game by voting Prole, who doesn't even participate, which could have been an attempt to simulate his innocence. But I think Sigurd is a better candidate to lynch for now.

Kommodus

02-24-2007, 18:57

Sigurd

02-24-2007, 19:34

vote: Pannonian

I am a believer in Kommodus' results. He names me in the list and it is understandable considering my recent ‘role playing’.

I was swamped in my game, but didn’t want to get WoG’d from this game, so I played the little crazy townie. It was such fun in God Father II.

I am aware that Kommodus’ methods unearth players with roles. It could be that pannonian is the detective. I believe the risk is imminent whether Kommodus is Mafia or not. For now Kommodus has Pannonian on the top of his list. Andres second.
Last time (Mafia V) his method caught Reenk.. Reenk claimed to be detective and Kommodus believed him (as we all did). This was false.. Reenk was one of the Mafiosi.
Based on this I now vote Pannonian. Should the detective still be alive I suggest investigating the names on Kommodus’ list starting with either me or Kommodus.

Kagemusha

02-24-2007, 19:39

Vote Kommodus. I think that the town so blindly trusting him could be a mistake.

Pannonian

02-24-2007, 20:23

Kommodus

02-24-2007, 20:49

Kommodus, did you pay much attention to Capo? For instance, have you seen this (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1402103&postcount=1292)? As for my frequent posting - I've already explained it. I don't really want a GH game to go down the drain as it looked like doing, as I've seen so many other games do, so I took it upon myself to drive the discussion. If that's suspicious, so be it. I'm not going to shift my vote from Rabbit, whom I voted for to try and goad him into posting.

Pannonian, I'm not talking about individual posts, but about overall statistics. You're right - I didn't pay that much attention during Capo (RL and all that) but I've still got the whole thread plotted out numerically. The fact remains that you're off-norm, in more ways than one.

That said, you almost convince me to change my vote to Andres. I don't necessarily think that a mafioso would place himself as much in the spotlight as you have, except in self-defense. I'll have to review your posts once again. If you're innocent and I'm wrong (which is very possible), I apologize, and if you're lynched I hope you don't take it too hard and keep contributing to the discussion.

Re: Kage, I really don't want people blindly trusting me. We're still in mid-game, and my results certainly aren't authoritative. For all I know, there might be a mafioso who's not even on my list. :dizzy2:

Csargo

02-24-2007, 21:46

Which is what exactly, Miss Marple? That he defends himself vigorously & logically?

He acted the same way when accused in CdiT & in no way is out of character.

Why is it that you want to lynch someone that is so clearly analytical & logical? Are you frightened that he might turn his attention on to you? Why don't give Sigurd a nudge, who both spilled the beans on the miscount in order to protect himself from the lynch & then also swapped his vote around to make sure he came on the winning side?

To me it seems as if his posting style changes dramatically when he's attacked from what I've seen.

That point is worthless, so being analytical and logical makes him automatically innocent in your mind? Sorry but not in mine. No, he can if he wants not that he'll find anything but alright. No reason too he's already become way more rational then he was before like I said he would once his game ended, and also I would have done the same thing in his situation.

Csargo

02-24-2007, 22:26

Still no word from Sasaki. This is getting rather suspicious.

Kommodus

02-24-2007, 22:44

Pannonian

02-25-2007, 00:21

Unvote: Pannonian
Vote: AndresTheCunning

I'm still pretty suspicious of P... he has said a couple of things that don't quite sit well with me... but right now Andres does look like the slightly stronger suspect. I've still got my eye on Pannonian, if he manages to survive this round.
Why don't you detail what these suspicious things are, and I'll explain them as best I can? For instance, The Stranger accused me of all manner of things in Capo without providing source or detail for any of them. After a few tussles, I got tired of defending myself without having the substance of these accusations made known to me. As it turned out, all the accusations stemmed from Sasaki lying to pevergreen about me, pevergreen swallowing it all and passing it on to The Stranger, without my knowing of it at any stage.

On that occasion, I managed to clear myself by luck, disproving by my actions the very crime I was being accused of, which I didn't even know about at the time. This can't always be the case, and my MO has always been to bring things out into the open for discussion, first in Mafia III (where you murdered me for that reason), Mafia V (where Reenk murdered me for that reason), and even more extravagantly in Capo. The Capo where I first experimented with the complex posts and arguments that so arouses your suspicion now.

On the second part of your focus on my posting pattern, take a look at the round where I pursued The Stranger. I posted pretty frequently during that period too, IIRC even more so than here. Why didn't you notice it? Probably because there were a large number of other regular posters in that game, whereas here I'm the only one willing to put in some effort. In Capo it was because I had already decided to commit suicide the following night, and I was playing out the round to the best of my ability, while here it's because I'm disappointed by the mass lurking in this game, and I want to push discussion along.

So there's my explanation for what accusations you've graced to air publicly. You're surprised by my longer posts because you didn't notice I started doing so in Capo. You're surprised by my frequency of posting because I did the same in Capo, but there were more players participating in the discussion in that game and thus it was less noticeable. Now if you'll tell me what those other suspicions are, I'll explain them as well.

Pannonian

02-25-2007, 00:29

No posts this round -
Sasaki Kojiro (he's been on today)
Crazed Rabbit (IIRC I saw him in the Backroom earlier)
Reenk Roink (last activity an hour ago)

Edit: Rabbit's post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1440059&postcount=21) in the Backroom.

Csargo

02-25-2007, 01:02

Unvote:Pannonian
Vote:Sasaki

I think Pannonian has explained why I was suspicious of him so I'll let him off the hook.

Strangely absent from the thread I want an explanation.

Kommodus

02-25-2007, 01:29

Why don't you detail what these suspicious things are, and I'll explain them as best I can?

Alright. Two main ones:

1. You seem particularly keen on proving your points, and your innocence, based on anecdotes from past games. That wouldn't be suspicious by itself, except that it's reminiscent of tactics other mafiosi, including me, have used - using specific examples from the past to try to prove a present point. Everyone does it, but you've done it a lot in this game, and it just doesn't sit very well with me.

2. On multiple occasions you've gone after people for not being helpful. I'm not completely comfortable with this tactic. It's one thing to lodge a pressure vote to try to get a lurker to talk; it's another thing to vote for someone who's probably innocent simply because you don't like their logic. I'd rather us go for mafia than unhelpful villagers.

So there's my explanation for what accusations you've graced to air publicly. You're surprised by my longer posts because you didn't notice I started doing so in Capo. You're surprised by my frequency of posting because I did the same in Capo, but there were more players participating in the discussion in that game and thus it was less noticeable.

Pannonian - bro - I wasn't totally aloof during Capo. (I was actually working behind the scenes a fair amount, even though I wasn't posting much or following the thread very closely.) Besides, it's irrelevant - my mafia-hunting program, Holmes, downloads and parses entire threads for me! I've got your posting frequency and length from Capo catalogued and analyzed in a database.

And... er... I'm afraid I must make a self-correction, now that I check my stats a second time. Your main discrepancy, P, is not your post length or frequency - those seem pretty consistent. (Highlighted because I want everyone to see that.) The number that twigged my radar onto you was actually the speed at which you've been jumping into the discussion at the start of each turn (see, I check quite a few metrics). Sorry about that - I mis-remembered my observations. :shame:

Anyway, I actually buy your explanation for now - hence my vote change. I hope other people see this and follow suit. In spite of everything, my gut tells me your behavior at this time doesn't really fit that of a mafioso after all.

Kagemusha

02-25-2007, 01:30

Re: Kage, I really don't want people blindly trusting me. We're still in mid-game, and my results certainly aren't authoritative. For all I know, there might be a mafioso who's not even on my list. :dizzy2:

Yep.Like you for example.:inquisitive:

Pannonian

02-25-2007, 01:46

I'd like to raise a name for discussion - Reenk. Faust voted Reenk out of the blue last round, and I went after him, looking for a more detailed explanation, hoping perhaps he was a detective who had investigated him and found him guilty, but not revealing because he was unaware of the convention that a mafioso for a detective is a good exchange. Whatever the case, Faust was murdered that night, and Reenk has gone missing the next day, despite having found time for other activities on the Org. Was this a case of killing the suspected detective, then lying low the following day to avoid drawing attention to the previous day's vote? I remember Sigurd describing it as an effective tactic in that live Mafia he played in.

Kommodus, can you run your program for specified periods in the game? Eg. in round x, between post #a and post #b, what was the pattern for player z?

GeneralHankerchief

02-25-2007, 02:11

Voting over.

I am unsure of when I can post the execution so consider the night phase started. PMs would be appreciated.

Reenk Roink

02-25-2007, 04:02

I'd like to raise a name for discussion - Reenk. Faust voted Reenk out of the blue last round, and I went after him, looking for a more detailed explanation, hoping perhaps he was a detective who had investigated him and found him guilty, but not revealing because he was unaware of the convention that a mafioso for a detective is a good exchange. Whatever the case, Faust was murdered that night, and Reenk has gone missing the next day, despite having found time for other activities on the Org. Was this a case of killing the suspected detective, then lying low the following day to avoid drawing attention to the previous day's vote? I remember Sigurd describing it as an effective tactic in that live Mafia he played in.

Yup, you got it... :rolleyes:

I chose not to vote this round and I'm not going to vote unless my vote can actually get Sasaki Kojiro killed or a breakthrough occurs.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-25-2007, 04:30

Rapidity of entry into the discussion?

Kommo, I am impressed.

Post count & length are obvious points of reference -- all of us do them informally at least -- but that's an interesting datum.

Not sure I controlled for that when I played a mafioso.

This one is twisting me. All of your listed ones were mine as well -- though I'd add Reenk as a low prob and put Andres lower down the threat list than you.

I'd love some of the raw take as support when you post your lists. Are you doing your own interp or sorting it in SD terms first?

Csargo

02-25-2007, 04:41

Alright Sasaki just jumped to the top of my suspect list. He's viewed the thread more than once and has yet to grace us with his opnion.

GeneralHankerchief

02-25-2007, 05:54

Fifteen villagers left? FIFTEEN??!?! And then after tonight's execution it would go down to *gah-gasp* FOURTEEN??!?! This situation was not looking bright. The birds trilling their sweet songs and the colorful flowers drinking in the golden sun back before this situation had started were all dead. The mafia did not only kill people with the arrival of their pestilence.

The people, the remaining villagers of the Frontroom, had more important things to do than water the plants or make sure the birds were fed. No, they had to defend theirselves, their homes. The primal fear that they might die and the desire to prevent that from happening had long taken over and overruled any other instinct or urge.

They were gathered in the town square, once again, to exercise the traditional ritual of justice by democracy. The police force being overworked and, to a degree, incompetant, it was up to the townies to make sure that the mafia were eradicated.

How were they doing? So far, it was difficult to tell. All the townspeople knew was that every day they kept reporting back here, with Chief of Police Beirut (looking grimmer every day) reading the names of the two people who had died in the latest attack.

Once again, they had arrived at the final part of this ritual - the execution itself. This part always began the same way - with the Chief of Police making his final announcement.

"Gentlemen," he began, "you have hereby found Sigurd Fafnesbane guilty of repeated murder. Sigurd, have you any last words?"

Sigurd, an honorable warrior of Odin, shook his head. He would not endanger his chances of going to Valhalla with petty begging that would not work anyway. He did not even fuel himself with Beserkr rage and kill the townies that had voted for him, even though he was imbued with the power to do so.

Once Sigurd had made his way to the platform and completed his non-speech, Beirut concluded the ritual by feeding the condemned with the poison. Immediately, Sigurd fell onto the ground twitching, but no sound of pain escaped his lips.

Would the poor townspeople of the Frontroom (who now numbered fourteen, not counting the mafia members that may still be in their midst) have to go through with this ancient ritual again tomorrow? Only time would tell.

Here is the voting summary for Round 5:

Sigurd Fafnesbane: 4 (Stig, ByzantineKnight, Redleg, AndresTheCunning) :skull:
Crazed Rabbit: 2 (Pannonian, CountArach)
Pannonian: 1 (Sigurd Fafnesbane)
Kommodus: 1 (Kagemusha)
AndresTheCunning: 1 (Kommodus)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Ichigo)

Abstained: 2 (Seamus Fermanagh, Dutch_guy)
Didn't vote: 2 (Crazed Rabbit, Reenk Roink)

~~~~~~~~~~~

Still alive: (14)
Kagemusha
Sasaki Kojiro
Stig
Ichigo
Pannonian
Crazed Rabbit
Redleg
Reenk Roink
CountArach
ByzantineKnight
AndresTheCunning
Seamus Fermanagh
Dutch_guy
Kommodus

Wrath of God:
Ignoramus
Lord Motep of Kendermore
Warluster
JimBob
Fenring
pevergreen

Killed:
UltraWar
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot
Zalmoxis
Orb
Rythmic
sapi
Sir Boo
Sir Moody
ChuggtheSquirrel
Faust| (replaces Destroyer of Hope who suicided)

Executed:
HughTower
discovery1
Caius Flaminius
Xiahou
Sigurd Fafnesbane

Faust|

02-25-2007, 06:20

Whatever the case, Faust was murdered that night, and Reenk has gone missing the next day, despite having found time for other activities on the Org. Was this a case of killing the suspected detective, then lying low the following day to avoid drawing attention to the previous day's vote? I remember Sigurd describing it as an effective tactic in that live Mafia he played in.

I don't know if Reenk is a mafioso, but I was probably murdered because I was so obviously a townie :oops:. (Actually, you had no small hand in my portrayal as such :beam: ). I don't think the mafia would want to murder suspected mafia at this point if they can avoid it.

ByzantineKnight

02-25-2007, 06:25

That seems to be BZK's response in every game

How would I/Why would I?

Is there a problem with that?

And almost everytime I've said that, I've given reasons why I couldnt have done it. I say almost because it is impossible to prove I didnt do it...

Andres

02-25-2007, 14:18

For the record, my top suspects currently are:

Pannonian: As I said before, his posting habits are pretty far off norm - his posts are more frequent and longer, and he's jumping in more quickly. This suggests a role. He's given an explanation (trying to give the game some life) which may very well be legit.

AndresTheCunning: His posting habits also look rather different from Midgard Saga, when he was innocent. They're a lot closer to Capo, when he was a wise guy with a murderous streak (correct me if I'm wrong here). His posting is disturbingly regular, and he seems to be waiting longer than usual to jump in. These are things I look for in a mafioso.

A little less suspicious, but still people I'm watching out for, include:

CountArach: Originally he claimed to be having trouble keeping up with the game, but lately he's been voting based on logic that doesn't look much like him. I was suspicious of him early when his behavior looked slightly off norm numerically; however, it's not off by much.

Crazed Rabbit: His activity level is way down; he's doing just enough to avoid the wrath of GH. I don't think he'd actually behave this way if he were mafia, but still... Also, I know he's the ongoing story-teller type.

Sigurd Fafnesbane: His bizarre behavior has been well-noted. I think he'd act differently if he were mafia, but it's possible he's using that to fool us. Someone to watch out for.

Sasaki Kojiro: Always someone to watch. His behavior is very difficult to read, and he's good at staying consistent. Holmes hasn't turned up much on him, but that doesn't make him innocent...

A nice list.

I can understand why I am on it. My posting style here indeed differs from that in the Midgard Saga. But have you noticed where my posting style in Midgard got me? I was innocent, I claimed my innocence over and over and... it got me lynched and I was totally ignored later on in the game because everybody taught I was guilty ~:angry:

As for Capo, I posted alot more there than I do here I think, but that can be easily explained: much more participants, much more discussion, much more time on my hands in that period. My posting ratio posts by ATC/posts in total might be the same or even higher in this one, I don't know, I don't count it and make statistics about it, so I might be wrong :laugh4:

Kommodus, imo, the time on which players participate in the discussion shouldn't be used as a parameter in your system. It can be explained by other factors, i.e. different timezones + real life.

IIRC, weren't you the one who invented this system of analyzing number of posts, lenght of posts, vote behaviour etc. just to deceive that same system in aonother game where you were mafia? So allow me to put some questionmarks next to your results and counting systems. I think some scepticism towards the "system Kommodus" and the results it delivers is a healthy attitude.

Anyway, until now, Sigurd stays my main suspect. It also catches my eye how all of the sudden you pop up followed by Sigurd who jumps on your "über-system" (which has been deceived before, so it's not perfect), claiming to believe in it + starting to act "normal". It just seems a bit odd to me. On the other hand, the way how Sasaki was backing up Sigurd in the lynching round preceding the last one seems more suspicious to me (but he didn't back him up now..., Gah! Why are these games always so confusing).

Lucjan

02-25-2007, 17:41

Ah why not, I'll try this thing I've heard so much about. In.

GeneralHankerchief

02-25-2007, 19:17

Sorry Lucjan, you're a bit late. Perhaps you could sign up for another game that is still accepting people.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-25-2007, 19:20

Ah why not, I'll try this thing I've heard so much about. In.

NOT! :smartass:

Glad to have you in the Gameroom, sir, but this thread is mid-game and you may only join if you have been added in as a replacement . The game host has not advised us to expect you to join.

We most certainly want you playing in other threads, however, as [S]fresh meat new ideas and input are always enjoyable.

Welcome!

GeneralHankerchief

02-25-2007, 19:57

Actually, I do have one more person on the chopping block WoG-wise, so if he keeps up his posting behavior (or lack thereof) then you're in.

Kommodus

02-25-2007, 20:13

I can understand why I am on it. My posting style here indeed differs from that in the Midgard Saga. But have you noticed where my posting style in Midgard got me? I was innocent, I claimed my innocence over and over and... it got me lynched and I was totally ignored later on in the game because everybody taught I was guilty ~:angry:

And you certainly don't want to be lynched in this game, do you...?

As for Capo, I posted alot more there than I do here I think, but that can be easily explained: much more participants, much more discussion, much more time on my hands in that period.

Er... no. You are posting almost as frequently here as you were in Capo. And that's less frequently than you did during Midgard Saga.

Kommodus, imo, the time on which players participate in the discussion shouldn't be used as a parameter in your system. It can be explained by other factors, i.e. different timezones + real life.

Yeah, I know - it's only one of the many metrics I use. It can be difficult to figure out which metrics are relevant in any given situation. But what I'm looking for with participation timing is someone who is paying closer attention to the thread and/or putting more thought into their posts than usual. The timezone thing is irrelevant.

IIRC, weren't you the one who invented this system of analyzing number of posts, lenght of posts, vote behaviour etc. just to deceive that same system in aonother game where you were mafia?

No, you misread the history. When I'm guilty I claim to be using my system(s) to help the town, but I don't invent entire new systems for that purpose. I invent new systems for the purpose of catching mafia.

So allow me to put some questionmarks next to your results and counting systems. I think some scepticism towards the "system Kommodus" and the results it delivers is a healthy attitude.

In this you are completely correct.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-25-2007, 21:44

No, you misread the history. When I'm guilty I claim to be using my system(s) to help the town, but I don't invent entire new systems for that purpose. I invent new systems for the purpose of catching mafia.

In this you are completely correct.

Kommodus:

So far, your list of potential suspects -- aside from your more developed eval of Andres -- has a sparseness similar to the effort you posted in Graffiti. Obviously, that does not inspire supreme confidence in me. Could you flesh out things a notch more -- and feel free to note some of the scores versus baseline scores stuff. You won't damage my lobes, promise.

HughTower

02-25-2007, 21:53

2. On multiple occasions you've gone after people for not being helpful. I'm not completely comfortable with this tactic. It's one thing to lodge a pressure vote to try to get a lurker to talk; it's another thing to vote for someone who's probably innocent simply because you don't like their logic. I'd rather us go for mafia than unhelpful villagers.

Kommodus - maybe then you can explain your reasoning a little on this. I have yet to be answered clearly on this.

Sasaki & Seamus both said something similar when I accused Sigurd & Ichigo in earlier rounds of being 'unhelpful' by bandwagoning, retaliating, vote-hopping etc. Sigurd & Ichigo have also admitted these accusations to some extent.

If you know someone to be a villager, then yes, I agree, they should not be lynched however unhelpful they are. But if you don't know this fact, then surely they are prime candidates for lynching? This is the point that I, Xiahou, Andres, Pannionian, & Redleg (to a smaller extent) have been trying to make all along, and it's got most of us killed or close to being killed for it.

An unhelpful player is, at best, a hindrance, &, at worst, a mafioso. Do you know that Sigurd & Ichigo are villagers? Your number crunching works on the principle of changed habits - the perfect camouflage then is to not change one's habits. Which is what my 2 suspects are more than capable & experienced enough to do.

Csargo

02-25-2007, 22:07

An unhelpful player is, at best, a hindrance, &, at worst, a mafioso. Do you know that Sigurd & Ichigo are villagers? Your number crunching works on the principle of changed habits - the perfect camouflage then is to not change one's habits. Which is what my 2 suspects are more than capable & experienced enough to do.

It's almost impossible for someone to completely keep the same style they have in the games where they are innocent. That's why Kommodus's system has worked well in the past with analyzing posting frequency, post length, etc.

HughTower

02-25-2007, 22:21

It's almost impossible for someone to completely keep the same style they have in the games where they are innocent. That's why Kommodus's system has worked well in the past with analyzing posting frequency, post length, etc.

Actually I don't think it would be that hard. Kommodus' methods may have worked when they were brand new, but people are more aware of it now.

Also, I think your frequent but concise posting, combined with opaque reasoning,
is the Mafia game equivalent of a poker face. Sigurd can play the 'crazy townie', tell everyone he's playing the crazy townie, & could equally mask his true nature.

Those of us who are wordier & more logical will find it harder to deceive.

Csargo

02-25-2007, 22:40

Actually I don't think it would be that hard. Kommodus' methods may have worked when they were brand new, but people are more aware of it now.

Also, I think your frequent but concise posting, combined with opaque reasoning,
is the Mafia game equivalent of a poker face. Sigurd can play the 'crazy townie', tell everyone he's playing the crazy townie, & could equally mask his true nature.

Those of us who are wordier & more logical will find it harder to deceive.

:laugh4: Just because people are aware of it doesn't mean they can make the exact same posting style they have when there innocent. Just because they're aware of the system doesn't mean they can completely fool it.

Your entitled to your opnion, but even I the great and experienced I didn't even have the same posting style when I was guilty, GFII anyone?

Pannonian

02-25-2007, 23:23

Alright. Two main ones:

1. You seem particularly keen on proving your points, and your innocence, based on anecdotes from past games. That wouldn't be suspicious by itself, except that it's reminiscent of tactics other mafiosi, including me, have used - using specific examples from the past to try to prove a present point. Everyone does it, but you've done it a lot in this game, and it just doesn't sit very well with me.

The obvious answer is that I draw more from the past because there is more of a past to draw from. Look at Capo, and you'll find I referred a lot to examples from past games in that one. Look at Mafia V, and there were a few references to the past (which probably prompted you to vote for me before I was murdered the following night). Then look at Mafia III, my first game, where my observations were entirely theoretical.

2. On multiple occasions you've gone after people for not being helpful. I'm not completely comfortable with this tactic. It's one thing to lodge a pressure vote to try to get a lurker to talk; it's another thing to vote for someone who's probably innocent simply because you don't like their logic. I'd rather us go for mafia than unhelpful villagers.

What multiple occasions are these? I've already explained the situation with Faust. That's the only occasion where I pursued someone whom I was sure was pro-town, and I've already explained why I did so, and Faust AFAIK is satisfied with the explanation. So tell me what those other occasions were, and I'll take another look at them.

And... er... I'm afraid I must make a self-correction, now that I check my stats a second time. Your main discrepancy, P, is not your post length or frequency - those seem pretty consistent. (Highlighted because I want everyone to see that.) The number that twigged my radar onto you was actually the speed at which you've been jumping into the discussion at the start of each turn (see, I check quite a few metrics). Sorry about that - I mis-remembered my observations. :shame:

I was interested in this accusation that I was jumping into the thread too early to be normal, and was therefore likely to be hiding a role. So I went through the thread myself to look at these things he talked about. Dates are in dd/m, hh:mm form.

Note: Even if you're not interested in this particular argument, some of the details may be useful for easier reference.

R.1
Murder post #63, posted 13/2, 00:09
My first subsequent post #78, 13/2, 03:52
Lynch post #154 (HughTower)

R.2
Murder post #181, 15/2, 14:04
My first subsequent post #200, 15/2, 22:08
Lynch post #263 (discovery1)

R.3
Murder post #300, 17/2, 20:58
My first subsequent post #302, 17/2, 22:00
Lynch post #374

R.4
Murder post ##418, 20/2, 03:35
My first subsequent post #424, 20/2, 04:12
Lynch post #573

R.5
Murder post #613, 23/2, 23:11
My first subsequent post #615, 24/2, 00:26

Which pretty much fits what I remembered. I raised some questions about Caius Flaminius in the interim period after round 2, and was further pointed in that direction by HughTower. Once the killings had been posted, and Caius wasn't one of them, I had an argument ready to post. Then followed a slow round, where there was little debate and half the players absent. I noted after that round that, while it may have been gratifying to have 4 other players (Stig, CountArach, Ichigo, Sir Moody) following me without debate, it wasn't good for the town, and it certainly wasn't good for the game. So afterward I made an extra effort to start discussion early, and to keep it going. Discussion is good for the town, and more importantly, it's good for the game.

GeneralHankerchief

02-25-2007, 23:54

Okay, the previous execution (see page 22) is finally up.

Csargo

02-26-2007, 00:01

Okay, the previous execution (see page 22) is finally up.

You forgot to move Sigurd from alive to executed. ~;)

GeneralHankerchief

02-26-2007, 00:27

Thanks, fixed. :yes:

Crazed Rabbit

02-26-2007, 03:29

Sorry for not voting. I was skiing all yesterday at a ski resort 2 1/2 hours away, didn't really have time to do anything besides collapse when I got back.

Right now I am inclined towards trusting Kommodus, when comparing his behavior to that of M3. Sasaki - well let's not forget rule #1 (his sig line).

Pannonian is behaving oddly, also.

There may be clues in GH's post:

"Gentlemen," he began, "you have hereby found Sigurd Fafnesbane guilty of repeated murder. Sigurd, have you any last words?"

Sigurd, an honorable warrior of Odin, shook his head. He would not endanger his chances of going to Valhalla with petty begging that would not work anyway. He did not even fuel himself with Beserkr rage and kill the townies that had voted for him, even though he was imbued with the power to do so.

Once Sigurd had made his way to the platform and completed his non-speech, Beirut concluded the ritual by feeding the condemned with the poison. Immediately, Sigurd fell onto the ground twitching, but no sound of pain escaped his lips.

Would the poor townspeople of the Frontroom (who now numbered fourteen, not counting the mafia members that may still be in their midst) have to go through with this ancient ritual again tomorrow? Only time would tell.

Does that sound like a mafia member? A 'noble' mafioso, or someone who is innocent?

Pannanion and CountArach both vote me - a lurker not really gathering suspicion. If they got their way, that means the towns wastes a lynch and leaves more suspicious people for later lynching, and the mafia doesn't have to spend half a night killing me.

Crazed Rabbit

GeneralHankerchief

02-26-2007, 04:22

Day breaks in the Frontroom. All is quiet. Like many villagers, Seamus Fermanagh had been up all night, although his forced insomnia had a purpose aside from defending himself from any possible attack. He was actually trying to find the scourge of the town.

He had been at his computer for the past several hours, inputting all the data of who was killed, etc. But most importantly, he had a list of names on that computer. A list of suspects. He had put a large amount of work into that list and was quite confident with his results, but the problem would be keeping it out of the mafia's hands.

Another thing stored on that computer, equally (if not more) important, was some data that he knew the mafia would kill for. It was this reason why he had moved his trusty handgun to his work room from its usual hiding spot where it was difficult for anyone to access, especially in a time of need.

An alert Seamus heard a doorknob being turned. Someone was trying to enter his house via the front door! He was expecting nobody, so that left only one real possible outcome.

He could hear loud footsteps nearing his location. This mafioso obviously was concerned about speed over secrecy. However, he was slightly too late, and when he entered the work room he found Seamus, his target, pointing a handgun at him.

He smiled. Jackpot.

"It ends here, mafioso," he said triumphantly. "You'll never get it - it would be foolish to think you would."

However, the mafioso smiled at this, which unnerved Seamus. "Seamus, Seamus, Seamus," he said, almost in the tone one takes when chiding a child, "We've known each other for quite a long time now, and you know as well as I do that I'm no fool."

Seamus said nothing. Obviously this mafioso was bluffing. He hoped.

"You don't think that gun is actually loaded, do you? I made sure of that when I broke into your house (secretly, of course) while you were out working earlier. I couldn't take what I needed, since your computer was pretty well-encrypted, but now you've been so kind to just access what I need for me." During this last speech, Seamus started to sweat more and more. At the last "me," he erupted.

"ENOUGH," he yelled, "Stop bluffing!"

He fired his gun.

Click.

Damn.

The mafioso chuckled. "Well, you've outlived your usefulness to me, Seamus," he said bemusedly. "I can't have you running around telling everyone who I am, now can I?" He said this while fixing a silencer on his own gun.

Seamus, in a last desperate attempt, reached for a button on his laptop that would shut everything down. However, the mafioso was too quick, and Seamus was dead before he could do anything.

The mafioso walked over to the laptop, eyeing the names listed. Taking the laptop (still on) with his left arm, he pulled out a cell phone with his right and proceeded to dial a number.

"Yes, everything's going to plan. Let's pay Redleg a visit. You know why."

Meanwhile, the pale mafioso was sitting in his home, reading the newspaper about the previous night's lynching. The paper had given Sigurd a nice obit and everything. Shame, really. However, he couldn't finish the article as his phone rang.

"...okay, I'll pay him a visit."

Thirty minutes later, Redleg woke up. He felt rather dizzy, so it took a little while before he realized that the buzzing sound was his doorbell ringing. He stumbled towards his front door, still half-dreaming. He had been paid a visit by that familiar nightmare, the one that had been haunting him for years. Although he had quit the Marine Corps ages ago, the spirits of those dead children still haunted him.

Finally, he reached the door, absentmindedly opening it. Mistake. If he was fully aware of what he was doing he never would have done that.

"Cable guy," said the pale man at the door, "There was a call about your television a while ago. I'm here to fix it."

Redleg wasn't buying it. "I didn't call for any cable guy," he protested. "I don't even have cable, I cancelled my subscription a while ago." The mafioso just grinned.

"Come on Redleg, don't act stupid. You know who I am."

Redleg took another look at the pale man, now fully awake. His eyes widened. "B-but... what? It's y-YOU? How is it possible?"

The mafioso chuckled. "Heh, you were stupid to believe that I couldn't swim. Well, I got news for you - you were fooled. I am an excellent swimmer, I just faked it. But enough about water. Let's get down to business. You made a big mistake working together with Seamus. Oh, you Marines always like messing around with stuff which is above your heads. So foolish, so unnecessary, so... deadly."

Redleg was panicking now. "I swear, Seamus hasn't told me anything about it yet, he doesn't trust me enough! I swear!" Redleg was pretty spooked at this point. No, "spooked" doesn't cut it. "Terrified" is a better choice.

The mafioso let this sink in for a minute. "Good point, I daresay Seamus wouldn't be so trusting..."

Redleg was getting a bit of his color in his face back, this was going fairly well. "So, let's just call it a day then, I'd never tell anyone about this, I won't reveal your identity. On my word," he added subtlely.

That last bit caught the mafioso's attention. "You'd never reveal me, eh ? On your word? Nice try sucker, but the last time I trusted someone on his word was when my boss promised me a raise, which he never give me. I had to kill him, you know." The mafioso said this with a slight smile.

Redleg quickly lost the little color he had regained in his face. He was even paler than his soon-to-be killer. The mafioso continued, not really caring about Red's facial condition.

"So, no. I'm afraid we can't come to an arrangement. Pity." A trigger was pulled, and the number of living villagers in the Frontroom decreased by one. The living pale man went home.

Later that day, Chief of Police Beirut gathered the remaining (and there were few) villagers to the town center in order to make an announcement.

"Gentlemen," he began, "by continuing to choose wrongly you seal your own fate. If you wish to break this trend of going home only to come back tomorrow, I suggest you choose properly this time." With this ominous words, voting began once again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Still alive: (12)
Kagemusha
Sasaki Kojiro
Stig
Ichigo
Pannonian
Crazed Rabbit
Reenk Roink
CountArach
ByzantineKnight
AndresTheCunning
Dutch_guy
Kommodus

Wrath of God:
Ignoramus
Lord Motep of Kendermore
Warluster
JimBob
Fenring
pevergreen

Killed:
UltraWar
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot
Zalmoxis
Orb
Rythmic
sapi
Sir Boo
Sir Moody
ChuggtheSquirrel
Faust| (replaces Destroyer of Hope who suicided)
Seamus Fermanagh
Redleg

Executed:
HughTower
discovery1
Caius Flaminius
Xiahou
Sigurd Fafnesbane

Redleg

02-26-2007, 04:49

Thanks for killing me Sasaki. Going to have a very busy day tomorrow and I don't have time to really watch and read this thread.

Csargo

02-26-2007, 08:08

I'm going with Kage. Vote:Kagemusha

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1426606&postcount=131

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1432144&postcount=342

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1437130#post1437130

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1440749&postcount=642

All of his votes are one liners not really adding anything. He has lurked pretty much this entire game, and I'll be the first to ask him why?

Xiahou

02-26-2007, 09:05

I'm glad that Seamus is cleared- his comments will be much more valuable now that he's confirmed innocent.

Suspicious people? Right now, CR would be near the top of my list. Still nothing resembling a denial of being mafia and he's been lurking heavily. Additionally, Kommodus' seem... I dont know.. half-hearted? Of course, Sasaki is highly suspicious as well.

Andres

02-26-2007, 09:36

And you certainly don't want to be lynched in this game, do you...?

And a mafioso would certainly like to see a townie lynched. Less killing for him to do.

Er... no. You are posting almost as frequently here as you were in Capo. And that's less frequently than you did during Midgard Saga.

Well, a change in posting style can be explained by several other elements, e.g. getting more experience in mafia games (learning from the past, which I should, because I didn't particularly well in previous mafia games :shame:), real life issues (I haven't been home much in the last week-ends + recently I had to work a few times out of office, which is rather unusual for me), etc.

Yeah, I know - it's only one of the many metrics I use. It can be difficult to figure out which metrics are relevant in any given situation. But what I'm looking for with participation timing is someone who is paying closer attention to the thread and/or putting more thought into their posts than usual. The timezone thing is irrelevant.

Ok, thanks for elaborating.

No, you misread the history. When I'm guilty I claim to be using my system(s) to help the town, but I don't invent entire new systems for that purpose. I invent new systems for the purpose of catching mafia.

Off course, it can also be a change of tactics, not? Besides, other, more experienced players noticed you were posting alot less now than in other games. Off course, this can be explained by real life. But now you pop up with a lengthy list of suspects, trying to convince the town. Weren't you detected by your own system? Did your system notice something different regarding your posting style and behaviour in this particular game? An honest answer please ~;)

But for now, I noticed that Sasaki is posting alot less than usual. It's not 'normal' for him at all. So, Sasaki, what are you up to? You backed up Sigurd and casted enough accusations towards Xiahou to get him lynched. Afterwards you let Sigurd down by not posting anything in favour of him anymore and he got lynched...

Are you a mafioso enjoying to see how the town has lynched two of their own (Xiahou and Sigurd)?

Vote: Sasaki Kojiro

You have been at the Org frequently the last couple of days, so I would like to know why you suddenly switched to lurking in this game.

Kagemusha

02-26-2007, 09:57

Stig

02-26-2007, 10:16

CountArach

02-26-2007, 10:19

Vote: Sasaki

He's been quiet... too quiet...

Dutch_guy

02-26-2007, 11:50

Vote: Sasaki

He's been quiet... too quiet...

Well, maybe a bit indeed. Although he still accounts for a little over 10 percent of the totall amount of posts, which I think is quite normal for him.

:balloon2:

Pannonian

02-26-2007, 12:12

Vote: Crazed Rabbit

Look at his vote count for why. Why hasn't he been wogged?

HughTower

02-26-2007, 13:03

Pannanion and CountArach both vote me - a lurker not really gathering suspicion. If they got their way, that means the towns wastes a lynch and leaves more suspicious people for later lynching, and the mafia doesn't have to spend half a night killing me.

Lurkers gather suspicion by just lurking. Of the (3 incl. this one) games played, I've seen Prole, Reenk (CdiT), & AtPG (Midgard) all lurk with conspicuous success.

I find it strange that you question this. You were voted to draw you out of the shadows (which incidentally it has done), & you chose to defend yourself by casting a shadow over your accusers, rather than the explanatory mea culpa defence that was required.

Reenk, Kagemusha &, to a lesser extent, Stig, have similarly suspicious posting & voting patterns.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-26-2007, 16:31

Another mafia death. So far, I have survived exactly one game (requiring the status of a god to do so) and in that game I helped lead the town's self destruction with efficiency and dispatch. :shame:

Nevertheless, I am so constituted that I can't help analyzing, so here goes:

Posting Activity Level = (# posts) [posts/page {40 ea.}]

AndresTheCunning = (22) [1.22]

ByzantineKnight = (18) [1.0]

CountArach = (19) [1.06]

Crazed Rabbit = (4) [0.22]

Dutch_guy = (13) [0.72]

Ichigo = (85) [4.72]

Kagemusha = (9) [0.5]

Kommodus = (13) [0.72]

Pannonian = (58) [3.22]

Sasaki Kojiro = (66) [3.67]

Stig = (34) [1.89]

Reenk Roink = (17) [0.94]

For comparison, using M5, Midgard, & Graffiti, the

Average Mafioso/Jotun = [1.89]

Average Det/Doc/God = [1.08]

Average "Vanilla" townie = [1.11]

NOTES

All townies seem to be about the same, but mafiosi seem to be about 70% more active than the average townie - in part because they survive longer into the game.

Big Time Lurks...[0.5] and under... who do not end up dead or wogged by the mid-game usually DO HAVE ACTIVE ROLES. However, I see no trend for good/bad in this -- seems about evenly split.

Sasaki and Ichigo usually have double the total number of posts of any other participant, usually with Sasaki having the higher count by a margin of less than 20.

Stig

02-26-2007, 16:33

Stig = (34) [1.89]
Average Mafioso/Jotun = [1.89]
**** :hide:

Reenk Roink

02-26-2007, 17:14

I'm going for Reenk, the only person he has been voting for is Sasaki ... ofcourse he might be right that Sasaki is mafia, but he could be mafia himself too.

It could even be a trick with them both being mafia, I think both are easely able to do that.

Vote: Reenk Roink

Of course, I could be a human, but also a super intelligent dog, perhaps a giant half dog-half human! :idea:

Many people have voted for Sasaki Kojiro. Here's another one:

Vote: Sasaki Kojiro

Pannonian

02-26-2007, 18:43

Kommodus, you've already posted your analyses of me, Andres, CountArach, Crazed Rabbit and Sasaki. Would it be unreasonable to ask you for your analyses of the remaining players? I'm particularly interested in Reenk and yourself. Reenk because he's consistently targeted a single player in the game and lurked a bit, much like his pattern in M5 where he was scum. You because you've already noted that we shouldn't just take your word for granted, so giving your own analysis of yourself would let us see if you're missing anything out. I'd also like the other 4 players named, if they want to spare the time, to explain Kommodus' analyses of them.

Kommodus

02-26-2007, 20:38

Ungh. We villagers don't seem to be doing very well. I'll work on the requested analysis later on this evening, but I'm afraid that once again I don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to it... I'm sorry if this seems half-hearted. In all honesty, it is. :shame:

Reenk Roink

02-26-2007, 20:52

Csargo

02-26-2007, 21:02

Pannonian

02-26-2007, 21:39

I missed one round of voting in this game, though I did post that round. Hardly qualifies as "lurking". In Mafia V, I never targeted a single player. I was on another player each round. Please, when you're going to draw suspicion on people, come with real facts...
There is the possibility, which you've denied, of staying out of the way after the person who voted you was killed - that was what Sigurd did with effect in the live Mafia game he played, the reasoning being to let things quieten down before making an appearance again. About targeting a single person - I recall voting for you in round 1 of M5 specifically because you kept abstaining courteously (in a continuation from your other games), a convenient way of minimising your footprint. I noted that wasn't much different from the Disco vote, except for the better disguise. I'll admit that is by no means conclusive evidence, which is why I want an analysis from Kommodus - Sasaki and Rabbit are much more obvious candidates, which anyone with half a brain can investigate for himself.

My only reservation about Rabbit is that GH hinted he was on the verge of being wogged last night, when Lucjan said he wanted to join the game. Does this mean he is not mafia? Based on normal mafia activity, but his behaviour can also be explained as an experienced player holding his nerve in a deliberate lurking strategy (like AtPG in Midgard), while doing the bare minimum to avoid GH's wrath. At the very least, I'd like his name to be considered and discussed, preferably with Rabbit himself joining the discussion.

Crazed Rabbit

02-26-2007, 22:56

It seems Reenk has been after Sasaki for quite a while, and now others are joining in.

Truth be told, it's always really difficult to tell the innocence of Sasaki.

Right now I'm mostly suspicious of CountArach, Sasaki, and Andres.

I'm going to Vote:CountArach because of his voting patterns and a feeling I have about him.

As for my lower than normal activity - I had two exams last week and I've got another on Thursday. Career fair tomorrow - I'm going for a sweet summer internship. So I'm a bit busy.

CR

GeneralHankerchief

02-26-2007, 23:16

As a heads-up to everyone, this session will be extra long, ending on Tuesday sometime around 4:00 PM GMT-5.

Csargo

02-27-2007, 00:37

I guess since Sasaki decided to stop posting he's of no great help to us anymore it would seem. I won't vote him though cause I don't think he's guilty.

CountArach

02-27-2007, 06:15

I'm going to Vote:CountArach because of his voting patterns and a feeling I have about him.

Hmmm, voting people on a "feeling" just doesn't seem right to me.

Csargo

02-27-2007, 06:36

Hmmm, voting people on a "feeling" just doesn't seem right to me.

And your reasoning was so much better I presume?

Kommodus

02-27-2007, 06:37

Ok, here are the results of a hasty analysis for all remaining players.

Kagemusha

Activity level down. Post length averages about 150 characters; normally above 300. Averaging 2592 minutes between posts, which is well above normal. Activity level was also low in Mafia I when guilty, but relevance of that game is questionable.

Sasaki Kojiro

Difficult player for Holmes to read. Activity levels have varied throughout his many games; this time everything looked normal until his recent absence. Has been jumping in a little quicker than usual – average delay is 90 minutes, when it is normally over 200 minutes.

Stig

Not many games to compare. Activity levels similar to Midgard Saga; posting is a bit less frequent (average 611 minutes between posts compared to 350 previously). Post length also down a bit; 165 character average compared to about 200 baseline.

Ichigo

Statistics look very normal. Post length, as usual, averages about 200 characters. Posting interval varies but looks very close to baseline. His activity level normally appears to drop when guilty.

Pannonian

Average post length close to baseline of about 600 characters; up only slightly. Average posting interval also close to recent baseline (from Capo), which is 300-400 minutes. Jumps in much more quickly than usual – posting delay is 141 minutes compared to a baseline of 600-800 minutes. Has explained this to my satisfaction.

Crazed Rabbit

Activity level down considerably. Average post length slightly higher than usual, but not enough to raise suspicions. Statistics look very close to those set in Interficio, except for posting interval, which is very high. Semi-lurking, which is unusual. Explanation desired.

Reenk Roink

Activity level close to baseline set in games when innocent. His activity level normally goes up notably when guilty. Has never been one of my top suspects in this game.

CountArach

Post length down (90 characters compared to baseline of 126-215 in previous games). Somewhat less frequent posting also – average interval is 1122 minutes compared to 500-700 in previous games. I was suspicious of him near the beginning of the game for some reason.

ByzantineKnight

Behavior varies from game to game, but nothing jumps out numerically. Mostly short, relatively infrequent posts; comparative activity level up slightly (as compared with other players). No real indication of guilt.

AndresTheCunning

Only a few games to compare. In Capo, average post length was 722 characters, average interval was 648 minutes, average delay was 1048 minutes. In Midgard Saga, average post length was 569 characters, average interval was 321 minutes, average delay was 533 minutes. Current activity level much closer to Capo, with an average post length of 937 characters, an average interval of 994 minutes, and an average delay of 1084 minutes. Activity suggests less frequent but more well-thought-out posts. Very likely to have a role.

Dutch_guy

Statistics look very normal. Activity level typically low, both in post length and frequency. If he’s guilty he’s doing a tremendous job of looking normal.

Kommodus

Posting frequency notably lower, while average post length is a bit higher (940 characters) than normal (500-900 characters). Activity level was up in Graffiti Mafia when guilty. Has claimed RL to explain absence.

Ugh, I really need to go to bed.

Vote: AndresTheCunning

Csargo

02-27-2007, 06:53

I think it would be a good time for the detective to reveal if he is still alive. As for now Kage explained his votes as RL, and if he's lieing well then shame on him. I'll go with Kommo on this one. Andres does seem to be acting differently from Midgard iirc.

Unvote:Kage
Vote:Andres

Also I think BK needs to speak up.

CountArach

02-27-2007, 07:39

I'll go with Kommodus on this one as well. He seems to know what he is doing.

Unvote: Sasaki
Vote: AndrestheCunning

Andres

02-27-2007, 09:39

Not again :wall:

Only a few games to compare. In Capo, average post length was 722 characters, average interval was 648 minutes, average delay was 1048 minutes. In Midgard Saga, average post length was 569 characters, average interval was 321 minutes, average delay was 533 minutes. Current activity level much closer to Capo, with an average post length of 937 characters, an average interval of 994 minutes, and an average delay of 1084 minutes. Activity suggests less frequent but more well-thought-out posts. Very likely to have a role.

So, you only have two games to compare to. Not very much to go on, eh? I post less frequent indeed. On purpose. Why? Because I hated the high amount of posts in the last two big mafia games. I am well aware I was one of the causes of that. So I try to post less. Add to that I have been absent several times, like I stated before. So, less opportunities to log in and post. That's another reason why I have less posts, but with more text. Check the Midgard Saga: I got lynched without posting once to defend myself because of real life.

And now I get this? Making well thought posts makes one look more suspicious :inquisitive: ? Would you prefer me to make some short, rubbish posts, where I vote for someone without giving any good reason? That would make me look less guilty?

Sorry Kommodus. This just seems very weird. I don't believe in your system. You deceived it once yourself + if I understood one of Seamus last posts correctly, it also failed at least once in a previous game. Whether you are guilty yourself or, without realising it, you are offering the mafia a nice opportunity to get a townie lynched, hiding behind your system.

Well, there are no role pm's in this game, so I can only question your system, point out the dangers of it and declare that I am innocent. Check the thread. I've made well thought posts (but apparently, that seems to be suspicious ~:confused: ), trying to detect who acts suspicious and voting accordingly. I am not the detective, so there's not much to reveal to 'prove' my innocence.

Now, for instance, I don't like how CA voted. He accepts the system without critisizing or asking questons, putting a third vote on an innocent townie:

I'll go with Kommodus on this one as well. He seems to know what he is doing.

Just popping up and voting for someone who is likely to get lynched, not giving any good reasons of his own :inquisitive: :stupido2: Ah, but I see, he didn't make a well thought post. So he must be innocent !

But for now, I'll stick to my vote for Sasaki however, since I want him to talk in the thread. I want useful townies to participate.

Stig

02-27-2007, 10:13

You can't compare with 2 games, and you can't compare post length and interval, how about being busier now then back then.

Unvote: Reenk Roink
Vote: Kommodus

ByzantineKnight

02-27-2007, 10:41

No one seems guilty except Sasaki (as usual)...

Vote: Abstain

Andres

02-27-2007, 14:45

No one seems guilty except Sasaki (as usual)...

Vote: Abstain

And why don't you vote for someone who looks guilty in your opinion? :inquisitive:

Stig

Not many games to compare. Activity levels similar to Midgard Saga; posting is a bit less frequent (average 611 minutes between posts compared to 350 previously). Post length also down a bit; 165 character average compared to about 200 baseline.

Stig was Jotun in Midgard :inquisitive:

So, Sasaki gets some townies lynched. Now he seems to withdraw from the thread, starting to lurk and you, Kommodus, pop up with a lenghty list of suspects and the towns' attention is drawn away from Sasaki's sudden silence (which is odd, since he doesn't restrict himself from posting in other threads). And Sasaki is difficult to analyse by your new system. How convenient.

On a side note, since your system has already failed once and you have used it once to deceive the town and obtain a mafia victory, I think it is reasonable to question it. So, do you have other reasons to suspect the main suspects on your list, besides the results of your program?

Stig

02-27-2007, 15:20

Let Kommo also compare me here with how I did in Capo till I got killed untill you say something about me.

And I think Andres has a very valid point here:

So, Sasaki gets some townies lynched. Now he seems to withdraw from the thread, starting to lurk and you, Kommodus, pop up with a lenghty list of suspects and the towns' attention is drawn away from Sasaki's sudden silence (which is odd, since he doesn't restrict himself from posting in other threads). And Sasaki is difficult to analyse by your new system. How convenient.

But I'm keeping it at Kommo for now, but if Sasaki posts in other threads again, but ignores this I will change my vote.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-27-2007, 15:25

Well, to be fair to Kommo, Sasaki is the best at behaving the same regardless of role. He typically posts more than anyone else on the thread by a large margin (except for ichigo). Kommo's system is designed to twig on discrepancies in style.

The limitations are that a style change is often, but not always, a sign of an active role. Sometimes its just a player taking his game to a new level or a relatively new player still developing their style.

Sasaki's absence in this thread is unusual (is he pissed off at the gameroom?).

Kommo's analysis, at least with this last post, is trending more toward the substantive of a townie Kommodus and away from the "keep it nebulous" version he used when in a scum role.

Kommodus

02-27-2007, 16:47

Andres, you are taking this whole thing far too seriously (and personally). I've admitted over and over again that my system is not foolproof, that it can be deceived, etc. But you are attacking my conclusions based on faulty logic of your own... :inquisitive:

So, you only have two games to compare to. Not very much to go on, eh?

No, but ya gotta start somewhere...

I post less frequent indeed. On purpose. Why? Because I hated the high amount of posts in the last two big mafia games. I am well aware I was one of the causes of that. So I try to post less. Add to that I have been absent several times, like I stated before. So, less opportunities to log in and post. That's another reason why I have less posts, but with more text. Check the Midgard Saga: I got lynched without posting once to defend myself because of real life.

Everyone will have an explanation for changes in their posting style. Some explanations will be valid; others not so much. You've been twigged by my system because your style has changed; simple as that.

And now I get this? Making well thought posts makes one look more suspicious :inquisitive: ? Would you prefer me to make some short, rubbish posts, where I vote for someone without giving any good reason? That would make me look less guilty?

Sigh... Andres, there are psychological factors to consider here. The fact that you are suspicious has nothing to do directly with the fact that you are making well-thought-out posts, as you keep asserting. Is this a misunderstanding on your part, or are you trying to obfuscate?

Your behavior suggests that you are taking the game more seriously and putting more thought into it than usual. That's why you look guilty - because that's what a mafioso would do. Don't patronize me; I've been playing this game for a long time and I have some idea of what to look for.

Sorry Kommodus. This just seems very weird. I don't believe in your system. You deceived it once yourself + if I understood one of Seamus last posts correctly, it also failed at least once in a previous game.

Well, my system has failed before, but it's been right 3/4 times. And I haven't deceived Holmes before - the system I deceived was my first one, which was far more simplistic.

Now once again, I might be wrong. There's a fair chance of it, in fact - I really don't have a good feeling about this game; I think the mafia are doing a very good job of staying hidden. And if you are, in fact, an innocent player who's been twigged by my system, I understand why you don't believe in it. But you are IMO the best candidate for lynching at this point.

You're right - CountArach is suspicious for his own reasons. So are lots of other players, including me. But I'm not hiding behind my system - I'm using the best tools at my disposal to investigate. Everyone else should do the same.

Kommodus

02-27-2007, 16:54

Kommo's analysis, at least with this last post, is trending more toward the substantive of a townie Kommodus and away from the "keep it nebulous" version he used when in a scum role.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Check out my behavior in Mafia IV and Mafia V. It doesn't get much more nebulous than that - I never posted any sort of substantive analysis in either game! Graffiti Mafia was the first game in which I made any sort of pretense at such a thing!

Andres

02-27-2007, 17:21

Andres, you are taking this whole thing far too seriously (and personally). I've admitted over and over again that my system is not foolproof, that it can be deceived, etc.

You did so indeed :bow:

But it's very frustrating to get lynched when you are innocent

*Sigh*

These games carry me away sometimes, making me post in a style you won't see elsewhere from me at the Org. Maybe I take these games too serious in general :shame:

If one or several of my posts insulted you or the effort you put in developping your program 'holmes', I hereby apologize. :sorry:

Sasaki's absence in this thread is unusual (is he pissed off at the gameroom?)

Now, as for Sasaki, if he would be pissed of at the gameroom and doesn't want to post anymore in a big mafia game, he would have informed GH about that decision and he would have asked to WoG him or to write up his suicide in game.

C'mon Sasaki, talk :whip:

Pannonian

02-27-2007, 18:22

I'll even the scores to give time for Andres and Sasaki to argue their cases.

Unvote: Crazed Rabbit
Vote: Sasaki Kojiro

Tally as of post #713

Sasaki (3) - Andres #681, Reenk #690, Pannonian #713
CountArach (1) - Rabbit #696
Andres (3) - Kommodus #701, Ichigo #702, CountArach #703
Kommodus (1) - Stig #705

Abstain (3) - Kagemusha #682, Dutch Guy #685, ByzKnight #706
Not voted (1) - Sasaki

Stig

02-27-2007, 18:55

Sorry Pan, but I'm going to untie it, Sasaki posted here in the Gameroom an hour ago, but ignored this thread.

Unvote: Kommodus
Vote: Sasaki

Dutch_guy

02-27-2007, 19:44

Sorry Pan, but I'm going to untie it, Sasaki posted here in the Gameroom an hour ago, but ignored this thread.

And he posted in the watchtower and backroom a mere thirty minutes ago, yet again ignoring this thread - even though his life is in the balance.

What's going on here, not like Sasaki at all - both with role and role-less. :dizzy2:

:balloon2:

Kommodus

02-27-2007, 19:46

You did so indeed :bow:

But it's very frustrating to get lynched when you are innocent

*Sigh*

These games carry me away sometimes, making me post in a style you won't see elsewhere from me at the Org. Maybe I take these games too serious in general :shame:

If one or several of my posts insulted you or the effort you put in developping your program 'holmes', I hereby apologize. :sorry:

Ok, no worries then, bro. I know it can be frustrating to get lynched as an innocent townsperson. It's happened to me on quite a few occasions! :sweatdrop: And I freely admit that I don't exactly have a great feeling about my analysis or my earlier list of suspects. At this point anyone could be mafia.

Anyway, Sasaki's continued absence certainly is puzzling. I don't know what to make of it - it's definitely not like him. :inquisitive:

Seamus Fermanagh

02-27-2007, 20:56

Grist for the mill:

Votes lodged against subsequent murderees (innocents):

Crazed Rabbit: Redleg (R1)

Ichigo: Redleg (R2)

Sasaki Kojiro: Orb (R1)

Remember, round one is the only round where mafia sorta feel safe.

Xiahou

02-27-2007, 21:24

I think CR is the clearest choice at the moment.

Csargo

02-27-2007, 21:38

Sorry Pan, but I'm going to untie it, Sasaki posted here in the Gameroom an hour ago, but ignored this thread.

Unvote: Kommodus
Vote: Sasaki

I think Sasaki's pissed, and the reason why is the way RR says his method's hurt the town at least that's my opnion it could be something else though. Hopefully Pannonian will come back and unvote Sasaki so we can have a tie.

Andres seems to be trying to pawn suspicion off on other players.

GeneralHankerchief

02-27-2007, 22:19

Voting over.

Stand by for the execution.

GeneralHankerchief

02-27-2007, 22:46

For the past day or two, the Frontroom had been rather silent. The most obvious explanation was less villagers to make noise, but there was still a particular voice, always forceful and loud, that had not been heard. Observant villagers noticed this and voiced their concerns.

The Mouth o' the Frontroom, Sasaki Kojiro, had gone mute.

There was no explanation for this. Villagers had prodded him, begged him, bribed him, and even threatened him if he didn't say something, anything. But still Sasaki The Unflappable remained silent.

The villagers were lost without their leader, although it was an unspoken thing that nobody really admitted to. But his style of accusations, his dress (he wore this strange hood that obscured his face), and his frequency of entering the conversation made this inevitable. So it was only natural when he became silent that the lost villagers assumed the worst and turned on him.

He had plenty of chances to pipe in, but this vow of silence he had mysteriously taken prevented him from doing so, and thus he stayed, a silent observer. He said nothing as Chief of Police Beirut read the tally, said nothing as he was brought up to the execution platform, and said nothing when Beirut offered him the chance to.

After drinking the poison (in silence), he collapsed onto the ground, twitching. Only right before the poison extinguised his life did something pass through his lips - a scream of pure agony.

Here is the vote summary for Round 6:

Sasaki Kojiro: 4 (AndresTheCunning, Reenk Roink, Pannonian, Stig) :skull:
AndresTheCunning: 3 (Kommodus, Ichigo, CountArach)
CountArach: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)

Abstained: 3 (Kagemusha, Dutch_guy, ByzantineKnight)
Didn't vote: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Still alive: (11)
Kagemusha
Stig
Ichigo
Pannonian
Crazed Rabbit
Reenk Roink
CountArach
ByzantineKnight
AndresTheCunning
Dutch_guy
Kommodus

Wrath of God:
Ignoramus
Lord Motep of Kendermore
Warluster
JimBob
Fenring
pevergreen

Killed:
UltraWar
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot
Zalmoxis
Orb
Rythmic
sapi
Sir Boo
Sir Moody
ChuggtheSquirrel
Faust| (replaces Destroyer of Hope who suicided)
Seamus Fermanagh
Redleg

Executed:
HughTower
discovery1
Caius Flaminius
Xiahou
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Sasaki Kojiro

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There may be a small change in voting procedure next round; I am still unsure. Keep posted.

ByzantineKnight

02-28-2007, 06:03

And why don't you vote for someone who looks guilty in your opinion? :inquisitive:

Because Sasaki is a bad idea for a lynch...

Andres

02-28-2007, 09:14

I think Sasaki's pissed, and the reason why is the way RR says his method's hurt the town at least that's my opnion it could be something else though. Hopefully Pannonian will come back and unvote Sasaki so we can have a tie.

If he would be pissed, wouldn't he have asked to get WoG'ed or notified GH his suicide? Whatever his reasons, we'll hear them after the game is ended.

Andres seems to be trying to pawn suspicion off on other players.

The same can be said about Kommodus, not?

Besides, I know that I am an innocent townie, so I think it's quite normal I will look for suspects who are not me, isn't it?

I think I can rightfully ask myself the question why Sasaki disappears from the thread and Kommodus pops up with a lengthy list of suspects...

But we'll see when the night is over. No need to get the mafia hints on who will probably get lynched.

Seamus Fermanagh

02-28-2007, 14:13

I think I can rightfully ask myself the question why Sasaki disappears from the thread and Kommodus pops up with a lengthy list of suspects...

:shocked2: :jawdrop:

Maybe they are the same person....after all, I've never seen them together at the same time...

Oh no....~:eek: :surrender:

:laugh4:

I think Sasaki was a bad lynch here -- though probably inevitable in context.

Suddenly shifting your posting behavior in that fashion is bound to draw attention and make you lynch bait. Therefore it seems unlikely as a mafia strategy.

I guess it was inevitable, however, because Sasaki is a bright chap and capable of using the above as the "reverse" reason for doing it -- WIFOM style. With that possibility, it's too easy a choice just to round up the quiet Sasaki as a "loose end."

On the whole, however, I suspect that we have NOT lynched a possible mafioso, and that this most recent vote is simply an effort at marking time while another pair of you join me.

Stig

02-28-2007, 14:37

Kagemusha
Stig
Ichigo
Pannonian
Crazed Rabbit
Reenk Roink
CountArach
ByzantineKnight
AndresTheCunning
Dutch_guy
Kommodus

Our remaining players. Kage, Dutch and BK abstained last voting round. I think that by now you should have some suspicions. If you don't have any your either not paying attention or you're a very cautious mafia, trying not to bandwagon, ever.

Now for Dutch:
He does say Sasaki looks suspicious, he does say enough to vote out people, but still he doesn't vote for people. Dutch has also been abstaining in earlier voting rounds.
Kage:
I can't find his vote, strange, but he only posted once this voting round
BK:
Said Sasaki was suspicious, but didn't vote for him as he thought it to be a bad lynch, next to that he would be almost last to vote for Sasaki, so he might have been afraid of bandwagonning.

Now for the remaining players:
Kommo:
Seems townish, but at the same time he can be faking some of the results of his research to hide his real identity.
Andres:
Seems townish, posts different from other games, but has been lynched twice while being completely innocent.
Ichigo:
Doesn't seem to suspicious, but then he's Ichigo.
Pannonian:
Seems innocent to me
CR:
where has he gone? Lurks a bit, minorly suspicious imo
Reenk Roink:
Has always been voting for Sasaki, he could be the detective, he could be Reenk and try one of his tricks again, minorly suspicious as well
Count Arach:
He could be both, some think he's suspicious, but all that could be against him are his posting methods.
Stig:
That's me, all I think that is against me is that I post the same as in Midgard, where I was succesfull, but then I posted like this till I got killed in Capo.

Anyway, Reenk, CR, Dutch and BK are on my list.

Dutch_guy

02-28-2007, 15:38

I guess it was inevitable, however, because Sasaki is a bright chap and capable of using the above as the "reverse" reason for doing it -- WIFOM style. With that possibility, it's too easy a choice just to round up the quiet Sasaki as a "loose end."

True, but then again it is hard to explain why he wouldn't stop posting in other threads. Personally I can't explain his actions, as he knew that the chance that he'd get lynched is way greater than him being kept alive. After such a sudden style change.

Stig, I merely stated I found Sasaki's behaviour unexplainable. Check the post I made yesterday at 19:44.

And yes, I, like any other player, do have my suspicions. Kommodus' list is never a thing which I have trusted, simply because it has been effectively used as a mafioso ploy, and because he's the sole user who can use it. However, his statistics are and have been an impressive job. So I do tend to give them the time I find it deserves.

CrazedR's unexpected style change is strange, just as Sasaki's. And the fact that Pannonian is thought by pretty much all of us to be innocent worries me a bit too, if he were to be a mafioso we wouldn't know. Heck, he'd have no problem in killing us all off, simply because we have all followed him like sheep on more than one occasion. However, I'm not voting for one of the above because I can't find anything conclusive in their actions, which would warrant a vote.

:balloon2:

Csargo

02-28-2007, 20:57

If he would be pissed, wouldn't he have asked to get WoG'ed or notified GH his suicide? Whatever his reasons, we'll hear them after the game is ended.

Why would he do that if he could just get you all to waste a lynch? If I was pissed from something I wouldn't kill myself, I would try to get lynched. I don't know about that last statement.

The same can be said about Kommodus, not?

Besides, I know that I am an innocent townie, so I think it's quite normal I will look for suspects who are not me, isn't it?

I think I can rightfully ask myself the question why Sasaki disappears from the thread and Kommodus pops up with a lengthy list of suspects...

But we'll see when the night is over. No need to get the mafia hints on who will probably get lynched.

I don't think so. Kommodus was asked by Pannonian for a list of the rest of the players in the game, and how he analyzed them.

You may know that, but the rest of us can't just assume that your innocent because you say you are.

Pannonian asked him for that list like I said.

I agree.

Andres

02-28-2007, 21:30

Why would he do that if he could just get you all to waste a lynch? If I was pissed from something I wouldn't kill myself, I would try to get lynched. I don't know about that last statement.

Well, like I said, we'll hear his explanation after the game has ended, I suppose.

I don't think so. Kommodus was asked by Pannonian for a list of the rest of the players in the game, and how he analyzed them.

You may know that, but the rest of us can't just assume that your innocent because you say you are.

Pannonian asked him for that list like I said.

I agree.

I was talking about the first list, which he posted here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1440706&postcount=640). A list of six players when there are only 15 people left qualifies as a "lengthy" list imho.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough :bow:

Csargo

02-28-2007, 21:47

Well, like I said, we'll hear his explanation after the game has ended, I suppose.

I was talking about the first list, which he posted here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1440706&postcount=640). A list of six players when there are only 15 people left qualifies as a "lengthy" list imho.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough :bow:

Not really. He posted who he was suspicious of. He didn't get voted, then start trying to show faults in other peoples statements right after.

Dutch: Don't you think it's a little late in the game for you to still not be voting?

Pannonian

02-28-2007, 22:33

A whizz that has been increasingly evident, in this game above all others I've participated in, is the citing of "real life problems" to excuse lack of regular play. There is no way of checking the veracity of such a claim, there is no way of interrogating such players because they're not around to be questioned, and killing off such players can be (and often is) argued as a waste of time, resulting in their survival into the endgame. I kept out of Mafia IV because I knew I wasn't going to be around for the middle to end game, and generally I don't sign up unless I'm certain I can devote some time to it. Several players signed up for this game, then cited problems they must have been aware of (eg. Crazed Rabbit and his exams) as why they can't post more. Bah!

Dutch Guy and his permanent abstain isn't much better than the Disco vote or Reenk's courteous abstain, or Rabbit's confinement to the Backroom, either. Damn you all and your efforts at staying in character, play the damn game! There is simply no excuse for a townie to stay in character and lurk at this stage of the game - normalised stats no longer matter with this few people, and even if you survive the lynch you'll be part of a town loss in a couple of rounds as the mafia kill you all. So come out with your opinions, and let us lynch the ones that still try to remain "normal".

Game so far.

R.1 kills #63
UltraWar
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot

R.1 vote #154
HughTower: 5 (Sigurd Fafnesbane, Kagemusha, Xiahou, Seamus Fermanagh, Ichigo)
Sasaki Kojiro: 4 (Redleg, Stig, sapi, Reenk Roink)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 3 (HughTower, Orb, AndresTheCunning)
Reenk Roink: 3 (discovery1, Destroyer of Hope, Pannonian)
pevergreen: 3 (ByzantineKnight, Sir Moody, Caius Flaminius)
Redleg: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
AndresTheCunning: 1 (Kommodus)
Orb: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Abstain: 6 (Zalmoxis, Dutch_guy, CountArach, Rythmic, ChuggTheSquirrel, pevergreen)
Didn't vote: 6 (Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Sir Boo, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster)

R.2 kills #181
Orb
Zalmoxis

R.2 vote #263
discovery1: 5 (Sigurd Fafnesbane, Destroyer of Hope, Sir Moody, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh)
Ichigo: 2 (Redleg, Xiahou)
pevergreen: 2 (AndresTheCunning, Stig)
Destroyer of Hope: 1 (discovery1)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Reenk Roink)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 1 (Kommodus)
Redleg: 1 (Ichigo)
Xiahou: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Abstained: 7 (Dutch_guy, pevergreen, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Rythmic, Sir Boo, Caius Flaminius)
Didn't vote: 9 (Kagemusha, Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Crazed Rabbit, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster, sapi, ChuggtheSquirrel)

R.3 kills #300
Rythmic
sapi

R.3 vote #374
Caius Flaminius: 5 (Pannonian, Stig, CountArach, Ichigo, Sir Moody)
Sasaki Kojiro: 2 (Xiahou, Reenk Roink)
Stig: 1 (Caius Flaminius)
Xiahou: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)
Ichigo: 1 (Redleg)
Crazed Rabbit: 1 (Kagemusha)
Abstained: 3 (Kommodus, pevergreen, ByzantineKnight)
Didn't vote: 13 (Fenring, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Sir Boo, Crazed Rabbit, JimBob, Ignoramus, Warluster, AndresTheCunning, Sigurd Fafnesbane, Seamus Fermanagh, Dutch_guy, Destroyer of Hope)

R.4 kills #418
Sir Moody
Sir Boo

R.4 #573
Xiahou: 6 (Sasaki Kojiro, Stig, Sigurd Fafnesbane, CountArach, ByzantineKnight, Xiahou)
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 5 (AndresTheCunning, Pannonian, Seamus Fermanagh, Redleg, Kagemusha)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Reenk Roink)
Reenk Roink: 1 (Faust|)
Kommodus: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
Pannonian: 1 (Ichigo)
Abstained: 4 (pevergreen, ChuggtheSquirrel, Dutch_guy)
Didn't vote: 6 (Ignoramus, JimBob, Lord Motep of Kendermore, Warluster, Fenring, Kommodus)
(for my records: Kommodus missed the main session but voted in the run-off)

R.5 kills #613
Faust
ChuggtheSquirrel

R.5 vote #658
Sigurd Fafnesbane: 4 (Stig, ByzantineKnight, Redleg, AndresTheCunning)
Crazed Rabbit: 2 (Pannonian, CountArach)
Pannonian: 1 (Sigurd Fafnesbane)
Kommodus: 1 (Kagemusha)
AndresTheCunning: 1 (Kommodus)
Sasaki Kojiro: 1 (Ichigo)
Abstained: 2 (Seamus Fermanagh, Dutch_guy)
Didn't vote: 2 (Crazed Rabbit, Reenk Roink)

R.6 kills #677
Redleg
Seamus Fermanagh

R.6 vote #721
Sasaki Kojiro: 4 (AndresTheCunning, Reenk Roink, Pannonian, Stig)
AndresTheCunning: 3 (Kommodus, Ichigo, CountArach)
CountArach: 1 (Crazed Rabbit)
Abstained: 3 (Kagemusha, Dutch_guy, ByzantineKnight)
Didn't vote: 1 (Sasaki Kojiro)

Sasaki Kojiro

02-28-2007, 23:10

Hello. 'tis exam week so I havn't been able to read. Thought it would be amusing to stop posting and see what happened. Did a quick reread, Pannonian is scum.

First round he was content to let things slide by. Last round: the same. Other rounds he is very active though. Inconsistent. If he were mafia he would try to emulate his townie behavior as best he could, however he is somewhat off. He is much less on target this game. At times he is all "discussion discussion discussion!" and at others doesn't care. His posting on caius got him lynched on a very weak case which he pushed eagerly. He has several times protested the caius lynch which is quite scummy. His insistance on pevergreen being WoG'd seems like he wanted another townie out of the way. He way overreacted to Faust's vote on Reenk. He has also constantly threatened to try and get reenk lynched but never has. If there are still two scum left I think it's pann and reenk.

I shan't be around to argue about it unfortunatly.

Stig

02-28-2007, 23:14

You haven't read and read that Pann is scum ... well done

And if you weren't fed up with us, and still wanted a townie win, why didn't you say that you would be gone?

btw ~:cheers: after your exams

Faust|

02-28-2007, 23:45

If there are still two scum left I think it's pann and reenk.

They're two strong suspects for me. If you read Reenk's defenses of himself, all of them have been bluster. There's no need for so much attitude if you're a townie. Either:

1) he's mafia and is trying to milk this strategy where he can appear to defend himself yet commit to no opinions. This role is not too far off from normal... I would say it's an exagerated Reenk though.

or

2) he's a townie and trying to build up a consistent character for future games.

Stig

02-28-2007, 23:53

Faust you don't know Reenk (hell I don't even know him well enough) he's full of tricks. In one game he only replied in smilies, in Midgard he claimed to be a Loki, it took long for us to believe him. Reenk mostlikely is playing, tho he's always a suspect.

GeneralHankerchief

03-01-2007, 00:11

Day breaks in the Frontroom. All is quiet. Nobody wanted to do anything that was too out of the ordinary now. It was crunch time.

Reenk Roink was sitting calmly in his living room, reading some obscure book regarding atheism. Perhaps, if he died like this, it wouldn't be so bad. He was at peace with his quiet, tranquil little world.

RRRRRRRRRRR

Said world was disrupted by the sound of a motor. Angrily, Reenk looked outside his window. Someone was mowing his lawn! Reenk threw open the window and started to yell at this unwanted landscaper.

"What the heck are you doing?! I don't want my lawn mown!"

The man mowing the lawn couldn't hear any of this, so Reenk finally threw a rock at him, which finally got his attention. The man turned the mower off and addressed Reenk.

"Hey man, what's going on? We had great fun at that disco last night, huh? That party was awesome." Reenk was totally perplexed at this. What party? Why would a party be held in these times?

"I don't know you. There wasn't any party. What's this all about?"

The man mowing the lawn smiled innocently. "Now come on Reenk, let's be a nice guy and talk about this inside."

This was odd. Usually Reenk was the one who had confused the others. He was uncomfortable when the positions were reversed. "Uhm, sure. Come on in then. Can I offer you a drink?"

The mafioso laughed. "No thank you. I'm just looking for something. That book on atheism you are reading, I believe. You have others like that, do you not? More... interesting ones?"

There was no way anyone could be more confused than Reenk at that very moment. "Uh, sorry my friend, but-"

He was interrupted by the sound of the mafioso taking out a gun, adjusting the silencer, and pointing it at his face, all in one fluid motion. Instantly his confusion turned to fear.

"You know very well which book I'm talking about. It's the same one you bought at the University of Michigan bookstore, exactly one year ago today. Come on, let's have it." Reenk, petrified, quickly tossed the mafioso the desired book and began the begging.

"There! Here's the book, please don't kill me! I can explain anything, just don't kill me! I'm still useful!"

The mafioso just smiled. "Sorry Reenk, but everything I need to know is in that book." A bullet between the eyes ended the conversation, and the mafioso took out his cell phone.

"My work is done here. Are you doing okay? Everything goes according to plan? Okay then. Bye."

At that same instant, Pannonian was doing what he thought all the villagers should have done a long time ago. He had spent the night loading his truck with food, water, and most importantly, his valuable history books. He was heading out. These crazy villagers had resorted to the (obviously flawed) form of vigilante justice, and it clearly wasn't working. Worse yet, they had fingered him as the guilty party! No, he was getting out of here while he still could.

"It's a death trap, it's a suicide rap..."

Those Bruce Springsteen lyrics had never been more prophetic. Pannonian started humming the rest of the song as he was making his way out of the city limits when suddenly another car came out onto the road. It was driving quickly, and had a blue flashing light. A cop car. Reluctantly, Pannonian pulled over. A speeding ticket would be the least of his worries.

Out of the car stepped a pale man in shiny sunglasses. This was odd, because the only cop in the Frontroom was the Chief of Police. Had he already left the Frontroom?

"License and registration, please."

Pannonian reluctantly pulled out his papers. This was taking far too long. The cop wasn't even paying attention now, he seemed to be taking a call on his phone.

"Everything is okay as usual, don't worry. I'll take care of it." Finally, the call concluded and he made his way back to Pannonian, who handed over the papers.

"What's the matter, did I go too fast?" The cop shook his head.

"Don't worry about it, just stay calm my friend. This will be over soon enough." A frazzled Pannonian shot back. "Look man, I respect the uniform and all but I have to leave this madhouse as soon as I can!" Meanwhile, the pale man pocketed Pannonian's documents.

"Yes yes, this won't take a moment. Can you open your trunk please?" After Pannonian's protests, he repeated the request, although this time it wasn't phrased as a question. Reluctantly, Pannonian opened the trunk, still protesting. "Do I look like some drug dealer to you?"

The mafioso ignored Pannonian and stared into the trunk. "Ah, just as I thought. There it is." Pannonian got really angry at this point.

"Don't ignore me!" he screamed. The mafioso finally heeded him some attention. "Of course I won't. Now, what was this you were saying about being a drug dealer? That might check out with the force. Come on Pann, you don't recognize me? Your memory isn't that bad, is it?"

He took off his sunglasses and Pannonian finally caught on. "This can't be," he murmured.

"Yes it can. I know those wild animals that you sent after me were fast, but so was I. Let's just say that I broke some records that evening." The mafioso smiled at this recollection. Meanwhile, Pannonian was extremely frightened. The mafioso continued.

"Well, it was a nice chat, and I have what I came for." He paused a second, to hear the final lyric of the song that was playing on the radio.

"Baby we were born to run..."

"Let's see if that's true. Are you faster than my bullet?" Pannonian bolted, but it didn't take very long to find out that the answer to the question was "no."

Later that day, Chief of Police Beirut gathered the villagers (which were making themselves scarce) in the town center to make an announcement.

"Gentlemen," he began, "drastic times call for drastic measures. Obviously the mafia have not been eradicated yet. So, I am hereby banning all abstain votes. You must vote for an actual person from now on."

A few quieter villagers groaned.

Beirut now took out a familiar-looking axe. "Also, the next person you sentence to be executed will have an old-style death. Just me, him, and the chopping block. Get voting!"

~~~~~~~~~~
Still alive: (9)
Kagemusha
Stig
Ichigo
Crazed Rabbit
CountArach
ByzantineKnight
AndresTheCunning
Dutch_guy
Kommodus

Wrath of God:
Ignoramus
Lord Motep of Kendermore
Warluster
JimBob
Fenring
pevergreen

Killed:
UltraWar
Omanes Alexandrapolites the Idiot
Zalmoxis
Orb
Rythmic
sapi
Sir Boo
Sir Moody
ChuggtheSquirrel
Faust| (replaces Destroyer of Hope who suicided)
Seamus Fermanagh
Redleg
Reenk Roink
Pannonian

Executed:
HughTower
discovery1
Caius Flaminius
Xiahou
Sigurd Fafnesbane
Sasaki Kojiro

~~~~~~~~

Nine left. Abstains will be counted as "no vote"s from now on.

Stig

03-01-2007, 00:21

Great they killed the two of which Sasaki said they were suspicious ... shall we say that Sasaki didn't communicate well with his remaining mafia friend ... or that it was just a coincidence.

Dutch Guy made himself suspicious with his continous Abstaining imo. So I'm going to vote for him:

Vote: Dutch Guy

Dutch_guy

03-01-2007, 00:28

So, I am hereby banning all abstain votes. You must vote for an actual person from now on."

Well then, it seems things need to change...

Dutch Guy made himself suspicious with his continous Abstaining imo. So I'm going to vote for him

Pretty convenient excuse though, so I'm suspicious because I abstain, and not for what I post ? Strange, especially knowing my abstaining is not going to happen anymore, since it's not allowed from now on. Seems to me you're in quite a hurry to get a vote in, and didn't put a lot of thought in the actual reason.

:balloon2:

Sasaki Kojiro

03-01-2007, 00:37

:laugh4:

There's a reason I decided to stop participating last round :laugh4:

<--thinks he'll refrain from further speculation till friday

Kommodus

03-01-2007, 00:50

Vote: AndresTheCunning

Can't say I blame people for not trusting me, especially after I was wrong about Pannonian. Still, I think this is the right choice.

Kommodus

03-01-2007, 00:52

:laugh4:

There's a reason I decided to stop participating last round :laugh4:

<--thinks he'll refrain from further speculation till friday

:dizzy2:

How about a little more information? You edited that post after initially saying "they fell for it." What did you mean by that?

Sasaki Kojiro

03-01-2007, 00:57

:dizzy2:

How about a little more information? You edited that post after initially saying "they fell for it." What did you mean by that?

Attempting to salvage my hurt ego :sweatdrop:

That's what I get for skimming :smash:

Kagemusha

03-01-2007, 01:00

Vote Kommodus. I think you are scum with your continuos mantra ,about people not trusting you.Im happy that you accept that some of us dont trust on your innocence on this game.:inquisitive:

Reenk Roink

03-01-2007, 01:16

Boy, you guys who were pointing the finger at me were either really lost or deliciously guilty. :rolleyes:

If anyone was wondering what "game" I was playing this round it is being a good but hard nosed villager trying to help the town. I was hoping for a detective reveal or some mistake, but since we had very little to go on, Sasaki Kojiro was my target. Sasaki Kojrio was an excellent lynch. He is extremely suspicious all the time until proven innocent, and given his recent cryptic messages, all the more reason not to trust him.

Now, the fact that the detective has not revealed yet is worrying. He is most likely dead, killed early on a la Banquo's Ghost. If you are alive now detective, reveal. Innocents are as valuable as Mafia people in this late stage.

Now to the Mafia themselves. First of all, what a sad kill you guys gave me. With quotes like: "reading some obscure book regarding atheism" and similar vagueness, it is quite obvious that you are not well read at all. When I was Mafia, I brought up books like The Analyst: A Discourse Addressed to an Infidel Mathematician Wherein it is Examined Whether the Object, Principles, and Inferences of the Modern Analysis are more Distinctly Conceived, or More Evidently Deduced, than Religious Mysteries and Points of Faith. and followed a nice theme with my kills, creating a nice aura around the game itself. Same with Seamus Fermanagh.

Oh, and don't try to pass your poor show on GeneralHankerchief, because he writes the kills based on the PM's, and I can imagine him reading your pitiful PM now:

gee-H

plees kill ReN aX wit a gun /

LOl

pS; make dat uh micheen gun

Anyway, I think the Mafia will win this game, but let's make something clear: the Mafia didn't win it. The town lost it. The performances of losing Mafia teams like in Mafia II, III, and IV were brilliant, and it was due to strong town play that they got defeated. You on the other hand haven't done anything to deserve victory. Kagemusha won it in Mafia I. Sigurd Fafnesbane won it in Gotta Have More Mafia. Their performances were great. Yours were not...

Pannonian

03-01-2007, 02:14

Anyway, I think the Mafia will win this game, but let's make something clear: the Mafia didn't win it. The town lost it. The performances of losing Mafia teams like in Mafia II, III, and IV were brilliant, and it was due to strong town play that they got defeated. You on the other hand haven't done anything to deserve victory. Kagemusha won it in Mafia I. Sigurd Fafnesbane won it in Gotta Have More Mafia. Their performances were great. Yours were not...
The town needed to throw a good amount of mud arond at a good variety of people, thrown by a good number of people, in order to push discussion. Instead, I was the main driver and target for most of the middle game, as people either didn't bother or were scared of attracting attention. If the town is going to continue in this way, good luck in finding the remaining mafia.

After the effort I've put into this, I think I'll take a break from these games until either the next installment of Capo or Mafia. I just hope the next one I play in will actually have some active play for a change.

Sasaki Kojiro

03-01-2007, 02:18

I think we're hitting the limits of the 24 hour day mafia games here. 750 posts is nigh on impossible to reread carefully, and some of the people still living have less than 10 posts. ~:handball: I used to like this format but the week long days are just so much easier to manage.

I'd say stig or CountArach for today.

meh.

<--has writers block

ByzantineKnight

03-01-2007, 02:23

Our remaining players. Kage, Dutch and BK abstained last voting round. I think that by now you should have some suspicions. If you don't have any your either not paying attention or you're a very cautious mafia, trying not to bandwagon, ever.

BK:
Said Sasaki was suspicious, but didn't vote for him as he thought it to be a bad lynch, next to that he would be almost last to vote for Sasaki, so he might have been afraid of bandwagonning.

Yes, I abstained, because I "thought Sasaki was a bad lynch".

Whenever I play mafia e.g. CTDC and 3 Sons of Algamar, I almost never abstain, and I always do my best to get the other player lynched, going random with my votes...

I am kinda lurking in this game because I can only devote all my attention to one game at a time, soon to be this one as soon as I die in Monks and Masons...

And unless I'm innocent I never mind bandwagoning...

Sasaki Kojiro

03-01-2007, 02:25

The town needed to throw a good amount of mud arond at a good variety of people, thrown by a good number of people, in order to push discussion. Instead, I was the main driver and target for most of the middle game, as people either didn't bother or were scared of attracting attention. If the town is going to continue in this way, good luck in finding the remaining mafia.

After the effort I've put into this, I think I'll take a break from these games until either the next installment of Capo or Mafia. I just hope the next one I play in will actually have some active play for a change.

What we really lack are game playing standards. Since everyone knows the voting will be over quickly, we can't enforce good townie behavior. On mafiascum there's time day 1 to go through and punish people for bad logic and bandwagon votes and lurking. Most of the posts have substance and are worthwhile. A majority is required for lynch so the voting record is actually usefull. Here we let people get away with posting a few one liners. It's fun when you're scum but a bit depressing when you're town.

We also really need a better search function. I can't summon the energy to reread the thread 9 times to get a read on the people left alive.

Pannonian

03-01-2007, 02:45

What we really lack are game playing standards. Since everyone knows the voting will be over quickly, we can't enforce good townie behavior. On mafiascum there's time day 1 to go through and punish people for bad logic and bandwagon votes and lurking. Most of the posts have substance and are worthwhile. A majority is required for lynch so the voting record is actually usefull. Here we let people get away with posting a few one liners. It's fun when you're scum but a bit depressing when you're town.

One way of helping this would be to restrict the number of games going on at the same time. I was extremely PO'ed when Warluster started a new game when he was still committed to this, after not posting for the whole game. I had previously only played in the biggies, so I was used to a good level of discussion. Mental Institution was my first experience of what happens when people don't bother, and it wasn't pleasant, making me want to make a success of this game, whoever wins. So far, only Kommodus has bothered to make the effort, with the others just coasting along expecting a probably dead detective to put them on the road to safety. Even disregarding my role as townie, it's disappointing.

We also really need a better search function. I can't summon the energy to reread the thread 9 times to get a read on the people left alive.
I noticed it doesn't show all the posts by a poster in the required subforum or thread, making it less than useful. The 2 minute wait between searches doesn't help either, although that may be necessary to stop the whole forum from falling down. A useful search function doesn't need fancy touches - a guarantee it will find all the posts of that description in a thread will suffice.