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You have been warned. Cases like this one (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1368918.ece) really make me despair for my species. I guess I'm extra-sensitive since I have little lemurs. Ugh. First the Natascha Kapusch case, and now this? Not a good time to be a young lady in Austria.
February 12, 2007
Mother kept girls locked away from the world for seven years
Bojan Pancevski in Vienna
Three girls who were imprisoned by their mother in a house of indescribable filth for seven years may never recover from the ordeal, experts said last night.
The girls were shut away from the outside world, existing in almost complete darkness, playing only with mice and communicating in their own language.
When they were discovered, their home in a smart, upper middle-class suburb had no running water and was filled with waste and excrement a metre high. The floor was corroded by mice urine.
The case has stunned Austria, still reeling from the Natascha Kampusch kidnapping, and the authorities were struggling last night to explain how such a horror story could have gone unnoticed.
The girls’ ordeal was apparently sparked by their parents’ divorce, after which their mother, a 53-year-old lawyer, suffered a breakdown. But she won custody of the girls — then aged 7, 11 and 13 — and withdrew them from school, claiming that she would give them private tuition at home.
Her husband, a local judge in Linz, Upper Austria, named only as Andreas M, was not allowed to see them once, despite his claims for access reaching court nine times.
The girls, Viktoria, Katharina and Elisabeth, were rescued only when police broke into the house after a neighbour, who had reported his suspicions several times, threatened a local council official with a lawsuit.
Although that was in October 2005, and the three have been in a specialised therapy centre since, the scandal was only revealed at the weekend.
The mother is now being held in a special remand prison branch for the mentally unstable. She will appear in court in a few weeks on charges of grievous bodily harm and torture, and is facing between five months and five years in prison.
She had ensured that the blinds were constantly shut, and that all but one light bulb had been removed in the house. When they were released, the three victims had white skin and could not endure exposure to natural light.
Authorities are now under fire for failing to have intervened sooner, despite repeated complaints by neighbours in the well-to-do Poestlingberg.
The mother was said to have been summoned to court nine times during the seven years after complaints by the father and neighbours, but officials never found a reason to investigate the case more closely.
Waltraud Kubelka, a therapist who is now treating the three girls, said that their psycho-social and physical development was “catastrophic”.
“The oldest one is doing very badly and has no prospects of recovery. She was severely undernourished and practically anorexic after her release. The two younger ones will need years to come to terms with their horrific childhood.
“In the first weeks after their release they were hiding under a bench in the kitchen [in the therapy centre] because that was the darkest spot. They could not endure light . . . they had not felt sunlight or fresh air for years.”
It is believed that the children had contact only with their mother during the seven years of captivity and, as a consequence, developed an almost unintelligible language of their own, described as a “singing-like” form of German.
Even after a year of therapy the oldest daughter, Elisabeth, now 21, is said to be so disturbed that she stands only on one foot for long periods staring at the floor. She often bursts into tears.
She and her two sisters also reportedly finish all sentences with the word “but”.
But according to her carers, the youngest of the three, Viktoria, could soon be discharged from therapy to join her father, who now is in constant contact with his daughters.
A council official said that authorities had had no knowledge of the “truly catastrophic” conditions.
The mother’s legal training and knowledge of the law has reportedly enabled her to postpone the trial. The case will he heard in front of a court in Klagenfurt in the next weeks, as both she and her husband are well known in the legal community of Linz.
Natascha Kampusch was held for eight years by Wolf-gang Priklopil, before escaping. Priklopil snatched her on her way to school when she was ten and kept her captive in a subterranean dungeon under his house near Vienna for eight years.
Professor Max Friedrich, a child psychiatrist who treated Ms Kampusch, said that the two cases should not be compared.
“This is entirely different, when the mother herself is the captor. It is tragic that the one person that commands full trust is misguided in that way. I do not envy their therapists.”
You have been warned. Cases like this one (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1368918.ece) really make me despair for my species. I guess I'm extra-sensitive since I have little lemurs. Ugh. First the Natascha Kapusch case, and now this? Not a good time to be a young lady in Austria.
February 12, 2007
Mother kept girls locked away from the world for seven years
Bojan Pancevski in Vienna
Three girls who were imprisoned by their mother in a house of indescribable filth for seven years may never recover from the ordeal, experts said last night.
The girls were shut away from the outside world, existing in almost complete darkness, playing only with mice and communicating in their own language.
When they were discovered, their home in a smart, upper middle-class suburb had no running water and was filled with waste and excrement a metre high. The floor was corroded by mice urine.
The case has stunned Austria, still reeling from the Natascha Kampusch kidnapping, and the authorities were struggling last night to explain how such a horror story could have gone unnoticed.
The girls’ ordeal was apparently sparked by their parents’ divorce, after which their mother, a 53-year-old lawyer, suffered a breakdown. But she won custody of the girls — then aged 7, 11 and 13 — and withdrew them from school, claiming that she would give them private tuition at home.
Her husband, a local judge in Linz, Upper Austria, named only as Andreas M, was not allowed to see them once, despite his claims for access reaching court nine times.
The girls, Viktoria, Katharina and Elisabeth, were rescued only when police broke into the house after a neighbour, who had reported his suspicions several times, threatened a local council official with a lawsuit.
Although that was in October 2005, and the three have been in a specialised therapy centre since, the scandal was only revealed at the weekend.
The mother is now being held in a special remand prison branch for the mentally unstable. She will appear in court in a few weeks on charges of grievous bodily harm and torture, and is facing between five months and five years in prison.
She had ensured that the blinds were constantly shut, and that all but one light bulb had been removed in the house. When they were released, the three victims had white skin and could not endure exposure to natural light.
Authorities are now under fire for failing to have intervened sooner, despite repeated complaints by neighbours in the well-to-do Poestlingberg.
The mother was said to have been summoned to court nine times during the seven years after complaints by the father and neighbours, but officials never found a reason to investigate the case more closely.
Waltraud Kubelka, a therapist who is now treating the three girls, said that their psycho-social and physical development was “catastrophic”.
“The oldest one is doing very badly and has no prospects of recovery. She was severely undernourished and practically anorexic after her release. The two younger ones will need years to come to terms with their horrific childhood.
“In the first weeks after their release they were hiding under a bench in the kitchen [in the therapy centre] because that was the darkest spot. They could not endure light . . . they had not felt sunlight or fresh air for years.”
It is believed that the children had contact only with their mother during the seven years of captivity and, as a consequence, developed an almost unintelligible language of their own, described as a “singing-like” form of German.
Even after a year of therapy the oldest daughter, Elisabeth, now 21, is said to be so disturbed that she stands only on one foot for long periods staring at the floor. She often bursts into tears.
She and her two sisters also reportedly finish all sentences with the word “but”.
But according to her carers, the youngest of the three, Viktoria, could soon be discharged from therapy to join her father, who now is in constant contact with his daughters.
A council official said that authorities had had no knowledge of the “truly catastrophic” conditions.
The mother’s legal training and knowledge of the law has reportedly enabled her to postpone the trial. The case will he heard in front of a court in Klagenfurt in the next weeks, as both she and her husband are well known in the legal community of Linz.
Natascha Kampusch was held for eight years by Wolf-gang Priklopil, before escaping. Priklopil snatched her on her way to school when she was ten and kept her captive in a subterranean dungeon under his house near Vienna for eight years.
Professor Max Friedrich, a child psychiatrist who treated Ms Kampusch, said that the two cases should not be compared.
“This is entirely different, when the mother herself is the captor. It is tragic that the one person that commands full trust is misguided in that way. I do not envy their therapists.”
Gotta love divorce...and child custody laws. I don't care what excuse that mother can offer, she should be put down promptly.
:jawdrop: 'tis bad. I wonder what punishment she'll exactly get, and if those children will recover properly. The eldest especially has less chance, it seems.
On another note, I'm curious as to what "kind of language" they exactly spoke when they invented one themselves. Some kids who get abused, etc., might still speak their native language, but when it's so bad that they even have an own language...? Damn.
Crazed Rabbit
02-12-2007, 23:12
Oh Lord...
How terrible.
Crazed Rabbit
rory_20_uk
02-12-2007, 23:21
Equality of genders, eh? Father repeatedly wants to see his own kids, and he can't. Sounds like an upper middle class person.
Mother of course gets custody an no one would dare interfere with her wishes... :thumbsdown:
If she's mentally ill without insight then I'd spare her execution. Else we could all do with the extra oxygen.
~:smoking:
Big King Sanctaphrax
02-12-2007, 23:31
She will appear in court in a few weeks on charges of grievous bodily harm and torture, and is facing between five months and five years in prison.
If they're actually trying her as a sane adult, this seems like a crazily short sentence.
Don Corleone
02-12-2007, 23:32
This is a horrible, horrible tale. I feel terribly for these 3 children. :shame:
Truely messed up. I feel really sorry for those girls. :shame:
Geoffrey S
02-12-2007, 23:41
This is too horrific for words. Three lives utterly destroyed, this article made me feel physically sick.
Equality of genders, eh? Father repeatedly wants to see his own kids, and he can't. Sounds like an upper middle class person.
Mother of course gets custody an no one would dare interfere with her wishes... :thumbsdown:
If she's mentally ill without insight then I'd spare her execution. Else we could all do with the extra oxygen.
~:smoking:
There must have been signs of her mental state. Giving her rights was absurd.
As for her execution, you can not decide to let go when you have people dependent on you. She sounds like a sadistic...I'm not sure if I'd be allowed to say the word...
She should definately get it in my opinion.
Oh my...
This has left me speechless.
:jawdrop:
Gregoshi
02-13-2007, 00:08
I am so shocked on several levels that I don't even know what to say to this nightmare.
SwordsMaster
02-13-2007, 00:25
Somehow Navaros isn't here to argue God's cause...
Damn. People kill people. She should be put down.
It is even worse when it is people like lawyers, doctors, and other responsible professions who do this kind of madness. They are the ones people depend on.
I can't even imagine this woman sleeping soundly at night....
ajaxfetish
02-13-2007, 00:30
This sounds like a case of horrific action by an individual (the mother) combined with a societal failure of inaction and unthinking trust in traditional processes (giving the children entirely to their mother and ignoring all the warnings from the father and neighbors). The first, while more shocking than the second, is something we can do little about, at least in a preventative sense. The second may need some rethinking on our part.
:shame: Hopefully we can find ways to make such tragedies less likely to happen, hopefully the girls are able to achieve some sort of rewarding life from this point forward, and thank God they are back with a parent who, as far as we can know, loves and cares deeply for them.
Ajax
Hosakawa Tito
02-13-2007, 00:37
Claiming temporary insanity shouldn't fly in this case. As a lawyer, she knew how to manipulate the system to avoid timely judicial review, denying her husband his parental rights, and prolonging the abuse of these children. She can't credibly claim that her mental state caused her not to know her actions were wrong, not when she was obviously trying to hide this. The State system failed these children and their father. This case had better generate some change in the laws. She deserves a life sentence for what she has done. The enablers deserve to be fired and banned from any employment in their field ever again.
IrishArmenian
02-13-2007, 01:00
People still can disgust me and horrify me: I'm not such a calloused ass after all.
I joke but I am speechless for something with real meaning.
Crazed Rabbit
02-13-2007, 01:08
Equality of genders, eh? Father repeatedly wants to see his own kids, and he can't. Sounds like an upper middle class person.
Mother of course gets custody an no one would dare interfere with her wishes... :thumbsdown:
Sadly, this seems to be the case. In seven years, he didn't get to see his children.
I think an appropriate punishment would be making her spend the rest of her days as she made her kids live - though I'd imagine there's some laws against that.
Crazed Rabbit
DemonArchangel
02-13-2007, 01:39
And we got rid of public flogging WHY?
InsaneApache
02-13-2007, 01:54
Dumbfounded.
I will say this though. If I was their father......[I dare not say the rest.]
Papewaio
02-13-2007, 02:06
Whats the British term? At Her Majesties Pleasure?
Very sad for the children.
AntiochusIII
02-13-2007, 02:23
It takes a lot to subdue a thirteen years old and abuse her continuously to the point of losing language and even severe disorders in all her abilities to survive. The mother must have been so assertive and abusive to the point of extremity: no mercy for her is warranted whatsoever. She is by all accounts a danger to society; smart enough to be a lawyer, disturbed, twisted enough to destroy the lives of her own children and use her vocation to prevent any attempt from the father to even communicate with his daughter and perhaps ensure a more acceptable existence for his own offsprings.
The blame lies almost entirely on her shoulders. Even if those children were to be thrown right into the middle of a 19th century Paris they'd have a better chance of growing up surviving and functioning on their own.
But to discard the authorities from blame is to make another mistake. Child custody laws and cases are far, far too biased for the women to the point of absurdity. Fathers often have to pay more than half their paycheck to the women with limited-to-no opportunity to communicate with their own offsprings. And the authorities' inaction despite continuous protests from various parties has been one of the main reasons that the catastrophe has been prolonged to such an irrevocable point.
Three lives destroyed there out of sheer neglect. I hope there will be repercussions and force for reform after this, and that some here in the USA take the case into consideration: with our own divorce rates (what an absurdity: it makes me rather sick whenever I hear a teenage girl talking about marriage, in fact, when I think that probably more than half of them, if committed, would soon enter divorce...) the probability for these kinds of cases increase dramatically.
Even then, I must say I'm interested in the scientific aspect of how the children managed to create their own language, the process they somehow learned it, and if the mother actually knows the language or not, etc. In fact, if I am to make a blind jump -- and it is a blind jump; I never heard the "form of singing-like German" in question -- I'd suspect it's even influenced by the sound of mice, which makes it even more horrific.
I'd hate to be a father.
I hope this women gets life in prison at the very least. She deserves execution for what she did to these three girls. I can't even pretend to imagine what that was like.
...was filled with waste and excrement a metre high.
That's...that's a lot of poop.
Kongamato
02-13-2007, 09:09
By coincidence, a TV program on "wild children" was just on. It showed the case of Genie, a girl who was given similar treatment. I also saw a program on her in a High School psychology class. Apparently, if language is not learned at a young enough age, development becomes very limited and the child cannot hope to progress past a certain point.
Alexander the Pretty Good
02-13-2007, 09:50
I'm most surprised that the neighbor had to threaten legal action to get them to check out the place. Around here in the US, I thought they'd normally respond faster to such suspicions, and have a friendly look around at least.
Is there something in the water in Austria? Nuts.
While still quite shocking, the case of Natasha Kampusch sounds almost like a fairy-tale in comparison to this. It's so disgusting, I have problems not to think of any physical harm done to that "mother"...:no:
What the hell is wrong with people...
I have two girls...
I don't know.. If I were in that father's shoes; No way I would have let this go on for SEVEN years.
If I even suspected some harm being done to my girls, those doors would have been broken down in a heart beat.
SEVEN years!!!! Come on Austria, wake up!!!
English assassin
02-13-2007, 11:19
One of the things that most depresses me about these sorts of stories is how many more similar stories there may be that never come to light. If not now, then in past years. There's a lot of misery in the world.
Also, I really don't understand how these sorts of things are still possible? I can live, I suppose, with social services not being able to spot many forms of abuse, at least for a period, but really, what was it about this case that made it so hard to pick up?
It seems to me than many of our systems are profoundly misdesigned, or misapplied, and spend most of their time endlessly investigating (you might go so far as harassing people for pretty minor transgressions, where the really huge cases simply go unchecked.
And then in the past there is the fact that it would have been much harder to do this, since neighbours, family, and that whole community thing would have been a check. The state does seem to be a poor substitute. Damn, at this rate I'm going to turn into a social conservative.
I wish I wouldve followed your advice and not read this thread.
Don Corleone
02-13-2007, 15:15
Nothing compares to the tragedy of what happened to these three little girls, granted.
But there will be some that claim this is the reason why social services must be even more intrusive in each and every home.
Social services had the tools at their disposal, ALREADY. They CHOSE not to act. I think the local social services director should be brought up on charges. The mother is clearly deranged and needs to be in a padded cell, shot up with thorazine. It's the local bureaucrats that were so criminally negligent and indifferent to the plight of these children that I'd like to get my hands on....
And the father. Sigurd makes a good point. If the courts had barred his visitation rights, he should have fought for a neutral 3rd party to go check in on the girls. Were I him, I would take my life in as painful a fashion as I could think, like crawling feet-first into a woodchipper.
Dutch_guy
02-13-2007, 16:07
I wish I wouldve followed your advice and not read this thread.
Yes indeed, same here :embarassed:
:balloon2:
I wish I wouldve followed your advice and not read this thread.
Yes indeed, same here :embarassed:
I did not pick the title at random. Maybe I should have been more explicit, something along the lines of, "Warning: You Will Hate Humanity More If You Read This Thread," or something like that.
Sorry for the supreme downer, but I was so upset when I read the article, I couldn't keep it to myself.
Best punishment for the mother would be to have her vocal cords removed and then be placed in the complete care of the children for the rest of her life.
English assassin
02-13-2007, 17:01
I think the local social services director should be brought up on charges
Yes, it would be nice if the UK crowd who are so hot for personal criminal liability for company directors also advocated criminal liability for social services directors when this sort of thing happens.
As Voltaire put it, pour encourager les autres.
Never going to happen though.
Seven years is damned long. She will get punished, but that shouldn't be all.
This case should be a serious warning, and it shows that, imo, there must be more authoritarian (of some form) control, social control. Or to even root out the causes to prevent these things from occurring.
It just tires me when I read something horrible in the newspaper, or even online such as here, or on TV, about an occurred socially irresponsible act which could've been prevented if there was more and better social control in the first place. Bottom line solution for those who are in control, I think: prevent these things from taking place, and take care of the root of problems (- humans); make sure people from the moment they are born grow and behave properly - everybody. A sanction in the end when the deed has been done, will not help much, besides instilling fear into others to not commit socially irresponsible acts. But that's basically based on, at least seems to me, legal emotional vengeance.
It might seem "childish" for an authority to treat its citizens this way, like children(?), but if we don't act to take care of it, these sorts of things, socially irresponsible acts, will keep happening.
ajaxfetish
02-13-2007, 19:36
make sure people from the moment they are born grow and behave properly - everybody.
First of all, I don't think that's possible. Second, I don't think governments in general have shown by their track record that they'd be up to the task even if it was possible. Making people behave properly is traditionally in the realm of organized religion, so this sounds more like an argument for theocracy than anything.
Ajax
Rameusb5
02-13-2007, 19:56
This story is just awful. It is always so depressing to be reminded of how people can treat each other. And her own kids too.
Unfortunately, there's really nothing to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Imagine the same situation except the father left (and didn't want contact with the children) and the neighbors didn't notice or care.
They never would have found the girls.
It makes me want to vomit to think about how many cases are going on like this RIGHT NOW and yet we haven't discovered them yet.
As much as I'm against the death penalty, this is one case where the perpetrators need to die. Or at least suffer the exact same treatment that they doled out, even if it IS illegal.
InsaneApache
02-13-2007, 20:57
This case should be a serious warning, and it shows that, imo, there must be more authoritarian (of some form) control, social control. Or to even root out the causes to prevent these things from occurring.
Good grief. Do you really believe this claptrap? It's social control that handed this woman the opportunity to do this.
ShadeHonestus
02-14-2007, 09:21
George W. Bush is to blame somehow, someway...just waiting for the reason to be pointed out by Hillary.
Spetulhu
02-14-2007, 10:42
This case should be a serious warning, and it shows that, imo, there must be more authoritarian (of some form) control, social control. Or to even root out the causes to prevent these things from occurring.
Good grief. Do you really believe this claptrap? It's social control that handed this woman the opportunity to do this.
It's social control out of control. The authorities are there but those with the right knowledge (law) and right qualifications (being female) can easily get the social workers on their side. Just say the right things and don't turn up drunk when meeting them.
How is it possible that a man must take his claim to see his children into court so many times? We believe the woman by default if she says he shouldn't get to see the kids. How is it possible that a neighbor must threaten legal action before someone checks on the kids? Lawyer mom used her knowledge to deflect every question before that. How is it possible the police never went to check on the kids? They called the social workers who said everything is fine, dad's just a psycho.
This mother is a psychopath, pure and simple. Husband leaves her so she takes the children and locks them in a room? She needs to be locked in a mental ward, with life in prison if she ever gets released from psych. :furious3:
Adrian II
02-14-2007, 18:06
George W. Bush is to blame somehow, someway...just waiting for the reason to be pointed out by Hillary.I always thought gays, liberals and Democrats were to blame for this sort of thing, even if it happened in far-away Austria.
Seriously, there is no system that will prevent this sort of abuse, nor is there any system that we can justifiably blame for it. It has always been with us in all sorts of forms and guises. An authoritarian approach would not end it, but merely institutionalise the abuse in a new guise. There are indications that education and improved social conditions will eradicate the most blatant forms of abuse in a society, but that is as far as it goes. Whenever people have power over other people, this sort of thing is bound to happen now and again.
A multiple related response post, if you people don't mind :)
___
@Ajax
Yeah, you're probably right about that, and I also think it wouldn't be possible. Still, we could hope for it, or something at all that would properly deal with it :) ...which leads me to...
@InsaneApache
I know what you're saying.
I'm no historian, or "qualified" being, but it seems that the separation of Church and State demoralized people. I'm not really religious, and the Church hasn't really been such a good honest entity either throughout history, manipulating people in bad ways as well as good ways, but I DO think some parts of religion are good to follow. For instance: certain virtues, "rules of living," etc... which leads me to my response below...
It's social control out of control. The authorities are there but those with the right knowledge (law) and right qualifications (being female) can easily get the social workers on their side. Just say the right things and don't turn up drunk when meeting them.
@Spetulhu
...So perhaps the Church must have bigger influence like they used to, or some form of it? Maybe the Church should control social control? I don't know, I'm just brainstorming :P
-edit- Just read Adrian's post.
Possibly right, but what if with some kind of authoritarian approach we would change people's morals, and future generations would not be bothered with these issues of control, power, etc.? Man, I'm just thinking... if we can achieve something like that, truly good moralistic societies, then do you think our base human instincts would still come back?
Ah, my wish is far-fetched :no:
Adrian II
02-14-2007, 21:25
-edit- Just read Adrian's post.
Possibly right, but what if with some kind of authoritarian approach we would change people's morals, and future generations would not be bothered with these issues of control, power, etc.? Man, I'm just thinking... if we can achieve something like that, truly good moralistic societies, then do you think our base human instincts would still come back?
Ah, my wish is far-fetched :no:Worse, I believe it is wrong. No offense, it is just that I am an old cynic with jaded tastes and I do not believe in silver bullets for human problems anymore.
In essence, my point is this: all forms of social control are vehicles for these same base human instincts. Therefore, no single institution should be too powerful. Institutions should hold each other in check and be accountable to public control.
You see, the moment you establish some sort of strict supervision of parents, it is the supervisors who will be abusing some of the kids instead of the parents or guardians. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for all strict regimes. The present balance in Western society between parental responsibility, state regulation and social institutions (school, Church, neighbourhood), however tenuous, is your best bet when it comes to preventing abuse. And it is never foolproof.
I am against Church supervision. The Catholic Church does not have a good track record when it comes to protecting minors from sexual abuse, nor do some Protestant denominations. You don't want paedophile priests or rogue Televangelists looking after your kids. The state, too, has always failed as a guardian of children as well, be it in democratic, Soviet or religious garb.
As for all the calls for the death penalty and related punishments above, I have heard them all before. I loathe the illusion they feed on, i.e. the illusion that somehow evil can be fully eradicated from society. Such cures are always worse than the ailment.
I am also against the death penalty for a variety of reasons. Suffice it to say here that if most people are afraid of the death penalty, the perpetrators of such horrid acts as described in the title post are almost always beyond that. The Jeffrey Dahmers of this world are not afraid of the electric chair, if anything the knowledge of their eventual execution makes them more reckless and resolute. Death may reward peoples' wish for revenge, but it will never, ever solve the issue.
ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
02-14-2007, 21:31
If they're actually trying her as a sane adult, this seems like a crazily short sentence.
5 months to years??........ Should be 50 years, or even the death setance,not 5........
Other then that, speechless. just ticks me off how people like this get away with it, ruin their kids lifves, and only get a easy jail setance..
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-14-2007, 22:49
I was shaking so much from rage and sadness that I had to wait a long time before typing this.
What has happened here disgusts me. I cannot believe that this was allowed to happen.
On the sentencing, why can the mother only recieve between five months and five years? She made her children live in these conditions for seven years, and the worst she'll get will be a relatively luxurious prison cell.
If I had my way, however, I'd also lock her in prison.
In a cell with 1.5m length and width.
Spetulhu
02-15-2007, 02:15
@Spetulhu
...So perhaps the Church must have bigger influence like they used to, or some form of it? Maybe the Church should control social control? I don't know, I'm just brainstorming :P
Well, if there was mandatory church attendance you'd have to let your children out for the duration.
But otherwise it would just exchange one control for another. Say the right things and you can still manipulate it. Godless social workers try to break the harmony of you home! Shutting daddy out might be harder in a religious system, but one can always tell the priests that psycho dad is an atheist. That should help them see that the father isn't fit to raise his kids.
Adrian II
02-15-2007, 12:12
But otherwise it would just exchange one control for another. Say the right things and you can still manipulate it.Exactly. But in many cases you don't need to manipulate them; the supervising institution will attract some really nasty, manipulative people all by itself.
I believe that all positions of power attract a quota of psycho's, sadists and losers who seek revenge for their empty or failed lives, in particular if these positions are more or less inconspicuous. The second and third echelons, so to speak. In a democratic society they are usually kept in check by public opinion and by the counterbalance of rival institutions. Nonetheless, even in a democracy you have your sadistic drill sergeant or prison guard, your repressed cleric, your manipulative social worker, teacher or civil servant.
I see the point(s) you guys make, and it is a point probably very true (damn, I could've brought it up myself, too, as the cynic I am, but was too overwhelmed by positivity for a moment there :P).
I believe that all positions of power attract a quota of psycho's, sadists and losers who seek revenge for their empty or failed lives, in particular if these positions are more or less inconspicuous.
Good point. That is one of the reasons I really think people must be changed. There must be a way, some way, to harmonize and unite. To not only economically prosper, but also have good morality, values, etc. Then if everybody has no failure, has enough and good wisdom, virtues, successful lives, etc., there is no reason to abuse power, to have vengeance, and all of these other horrific acts, including the abuse of children mainly discussed in this thread.
Sometimes I'm just ashamed I'm human :P
Adrian II
02-15-2007, 18:51
Good point. That is one of the reasons I really think people must be changed.Thank you for the compliment, but if I may be so bold: your idea is just about the most dangerous concept in the history of politics. In the political sense -- the sense that people must be changed in order to conform to the ideals of institutions -- this is a recipe for disaster. Ideally it should be the other way around: we need institutions that meet, check or mitigate the imperfections of man. We must seek to improve these, increase out knowledge of what makes them work best. That is all we can do.
Of course all voluntary initiatives, meant to improve social conditions or peoples' moral awareness, are perfectly alright and need to be encouraged, particularly if the leaders of the initiative lead by example.
That is why, as an atheist, I always donate liberally to the Salvation Army ~D
Banquo's Ghost
02-15-2007, 19:14
This thread is the only place I could think to place yet another awful example of human depravity. Again, might be better not to read on.
Toddler fights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6366255.stm).
Shock at women goading toddlers
Footage of four women goading toddlers to fight has "stunned" police and social services in Devon.
The seven-minute footage, filmed at a house by one woman, was shown in a case at Plymouth Magistrates' Court.
In the clip, a boy wearing a nappy was called a "wimp" for not hitting a girl back after she struck him in the face.
Four women admitted child cruelty charges and were released on bail on Wednesday. Det Sgt Andy Kings said the police had been "stunned" by the case.
"This was a multi-agency operation with the police and social services working together and every professional that has seen this has been shocked and stunned," he said.
"Locally this is something that is new to us, but we are aware that similar incidents have occurred elsewhere in the country and it is something people need to be aware of."
The film was found by social services.
The boy, aged two, is seen crying after being punched in the face by the three-year-old girl and is told by one of the four women in the room "not to be a wimp or a faggot" and to hit her back.
The four women, all from the same family, are heard laughing as the toddlers are urged to keep on fighting.
'Taunted'
When the boy tries to get away and climb into an armchair, the women shout at the girl to punch him again.
She does and the boy is urged to fight back, but says: "No, I don't want to."
The girl leaves the room, and when she comes back the two are taunted and told to fight again.
The court heard that when interviewed by police, one of the women said: "I didn't see any harm in toughening them up. I done the same with my own children."
One of the women pleaded guilty to causing or procuring the children to be ill treated in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering of injury.
The other three pleaded guilty to jointly inciting the ill treatment of children.
Sentencing was adjourned until 16 March for reports.
:no:
This thread is the only place I could think to place yet another awful example of human depravity. Again, might be better not to read on.
Toddler fights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6366255.stm).
Shock at women goading toddlers
Footage of four women goading toddlers to fight has "stunned" police and social services in Devon.
The seven-minute footage, filmed at a house by one woman, was shown in a case at Plymouth Magistrates' Court.
In the clip, a boy wearing a nappy was called a "wimp" for not hitting a girl back after she struck him in the face.
Four women admitted child cruelty charges and were released on bail on Wednesday. Det Sgt Andy Kings said the police had been "stunned" by the case.
"This was a multi-agency operation with the police and social services working together and every professional that has seen this has been shocked and stunned," he said.
"Locally this is something that is new to us, but we are aware that similar incidents have occurred elsewhere in the country and it is something people need to be aware of."
The film was found by social services.
The boy, aged two, is seen crying after being punched in the face by the three-year-old girl and is told by one of the four women in the room "not to be a wimp or a faggot" and to hit her back.
The four women, all from the same family, are heard laughing as the toddlers are urged to keep on fighting.
'Taunted'
When the boy tries to get away and climb into an armchair, the women shout at the girl to punch him again.
She does and the boy is urged to fight back, but says: "No, I don't want to."
The girl leaves the room, and when she comes back the two are taunted and told to fight again.
The court heard that when interviewed by police, one of the women said: "I didn't see any harm in toughening them up. I done the same with my own children."
One of the women pleaded guilty to causing or procuring the children to be ill treated in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering of injury.
The other three pleaded guilty to jointly inciting the ill treatment of children.
Sentencing was adjourned until 16 March for reports.
:no:
Chavs in training...
This thread is the only place I could think to place yet another awful example of human depravity. Again, might be better not to read on.
Toddler fights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6366255.stm).
Shock at women goading toddlers
Footage of four women goading toddlers to fight has "stunned" police and social services in Devon.
The seven-minute footage, filmed at a house by one woman, was shown in a case at Plymouth Magistrates' Court.
In the clip, a boy wearing a nappy was called a "wimp" for not hitting a girl back after she struck him in the face.
Four women admitted child cruelty charges and were released on bail on Wednesday. Det Sgt Andy Kings said the police had been "stunned" by the case.
"This was a multi-agency operation with the police and social services working together and every professional that has seen this has been shocked and stunned," he said.
"Locally this is something that is new to us, but we are aware that similar incidents have occurred elsewhere in the country and it is something people need to be aware of."
The film was found by social services.
The boy, aged two, is seen crying after being punched in the face by the three-year-old girl and is told by one of the four women in the room "not to be a wimp or a faggot" and to hit her back.
The four women, all from the same family, are heard laughing as the toddlers are urged to keep on fighting.
'Taunted'
When the boy tries to get away and climb into an armchair, the women shout at the girl to punch him again.
She does and the boy is urged to fight back, but says: "No, I don't want to."
The girl leaves the room, and when she comes back the two are taunted and told to fight again.
The court heard that when interviewed by police, one of the women said: "I didn't see any harm in toughening them up. I done the same with my own children."
One of the women pleaded guilty to causing or procuring the children to be ill treated in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering of injury.
The other three pleaded guilty to jointly inciting the ill treatment of children.
Sentencing was adjourned until 16 March for reports.
:no:
I just choked on my food laughing.
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