Faction Icons

[Karielle]

I was just wondering if anyone could enlighten me on the meaning and origins of the symbols in each faction's icon.. Been curious about that for a while. Is there somewhere I can go to find out, or could someone tell me offhand?

I'm interested in finding out that of Aedui's and Arverni's especially, since I'm playing the former at the moment, and am a bit puzzled about the symbols' significance. No background in history, nor any particular interest in it till I started, but you'll find a convert in me yet, EB. :2thumbsup:

[Anthony]

Aedui - Boars are common Celtic imagery for heroism, and wheels have religious intepretations

Arverni - Hammer and cup, the objects credited to Sucellos, who the Arverni used to 'replace' Cernunnos, the god of Gallic druids, with whom they had a falling out

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Some of the ones I know the most about or have read up on recently. Some of this might be good for an FAQ entry:

KH: Pegasos was chosen because of the extremely common use of it (and its instantaneous recognizability) on coinage from Greek cities across the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Runners up were profiles of Athena and thunderbolts of Zeus I believe (the thunderbolts were added later as the generic Greek rebel, and specific KH rebel sub faction, banners). The colors of black and orange represent the two main colors in the two major vase painting styles, and the shade of orange we use is close to a terracotta color. Icon by Parmenio.
https://img329.imageshack.us/img329/5237/pegasos6wkgs7.gif

Pontos: Among the symbols most commonly found on Pontic coinage were the crescent moon and the starburst joined together. It was an easy choice. A grazing stag or grazing Pegasos were possible maybe, but this was so common it made it easy (the grazing stag surrounded by ivy and grapes was added later as the rebel sub faction banner - for supporters of a pretender to the Royal throne). The colors of green and purple for it represent the green and purple that the ivy and grape (clusters) that surround many of their coins. Also it didn't hurt that we've seen photos of the royal tombs of the Pontic kings at Amaseia bathed in green and purple lights at night :grin:, and the color contrasts well with other nearby ones. Icon by Parmenio.
https://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5430/pontus6shield1284824ym1.jpg

Epeiros: Molossian Hound. No single image is a clear choice for them. Zeus Dodonaios was very common on coinage (it was added later as the general/captain banner for the faction) - more than anything else. Charging bulls, thunderbolt of Zeus, jugate heads of Zeus and Dione, the Dioscuri, a standing eagle, and Artemis were all considered. It came down to the hound vs. the charging bull, but the hound found on many coins is more immediately recognizable as Epeirote (the charging bull was later added as the rebel sub faction emblem). The darker green and grey colors represent the heavily wooded forests and mountains that their lands encompass, and contrasts well with other nearby faction colors. Icon by Dux Corvanus.
https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/2968/epeirossymbolhr2.gif

Baktria: Leopard with Ivy/Grapes. A number of possible choices existed. Thundering Zeus was a close alternate (it was later added as the general/captain banner for the faction), and other options were a griffin, an elephant's head, Herakles, a prancing horse. An elephant and the Dioscuri as hetairoi (both from their coins) were later used as the rebel sub faction icons. Their coins provide most of the information we know about ancient Baktria, so going with something from them was obvious. Dionysos was so popular there for a few reasons, including the myths about him conquering the area before "historical times", and Alexander's artistic associations with the god. Using a leopard, the animal of Dionysos, with the ivy and grapes beside it (a combination from a number of their coins) was an easy choice. The land was very rich in precious metals and precious stones as well, with large deposits of lapis lazuli. We chose the color of that particular stone as the background for the icon and the faction color, to represent the wealth and exotic nature of the kingdom. Icon by Dux Corvanus.
https://img329.imageshack.us/img329/2559/baktriasymbolbigac9.jpg


Sauromatae: Circular Draco. Along with options such as a sword thrust into the ground and tamgas (livestock brands at first, then evolved into symbols similar to heraldry), this was the clear winner. The symbol was based on this version of the Draco: http://img194.exs.cx/img194/7167/dragon11zm.th.jpg (http://img194.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img194&image=dragon11zm.jpg)
The contorted panther/wolf/monster that was considered also for the faction icon became later the rebel sub faction symbol for the Sauromatae. Icon by Parmenio.
http://img136.exs.cx/img136/5231/samartian6es.jpg

The Macedonian star or starburst was an easy choice. I do remember that we stayed away from any particular colors on purpose though - to keep the nasty modern arguments that seemed inevitable away from this discussion. Another royal symbol sometimes used was a goat, which was used in the rebel sub faction symbol in purple and gold carried by the general/captain as pretender to the Macedonian throne.

[abou]

Epeirote Pezhetairoi feature a charging bull on their shield, don't they, TA?

The anchor for Arche Seleukeia was prominently displayed on a number of Seleukid coins and was attributed to Seleukos I, but I can't remember why. I know that the anchor also showed up on some Parthian coins (eg in one of the loading screen) and I can't help but feel that it was used to legitimate Parhtian over Greek subjects.

Actually, what would probably make a very cool Seleukid rebel banners would be the horned horse of Seleukos and Apollo on the Omphalos.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Since rebellions in Seleucid territory are generally old Persian provinces, we use old Persian banners for their rebels.

[The Persian Cataphract]

http://img169.exs.cx/img169/5200/parthia6bg.jpg

The Pahlavân faction icon: This one is a bit special. For the Pahlavâ there was a wide selection of different heraldic motifs one could have used. This includes the famous Derafsh-î Kâviyânî, the mythical beast Sen-Mûrv, the sun and crescent (Symbol of Mithras and the Sûrên-Pahlav clan) as well as the Zoroastrian angel Frâvahâr. However as can be seen the choice is a winged lion, a mythical beast. It is based on the golden roundel found in Ecbatânâ, and the background is depending on which version (One of them is made like plain purple piece of textile, presumably silk) of a honeycomb'esque purple pattern, presumably an expensive textile such as silk.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

The Macedonian star or starburst was an easy choice. I do remember that we stayed away from any particular colors on purpose though - to keep the nasty modern arguments that seemed inevitable away from this discussion. Another royal symbol sometimes used was a goat, which was used in the rebel sub faction symbol in purple and gold carried by the general/captain as pretender to the Macedonian throne.
The Makedonian Star is the Sun of Vergina. They discovered it in the seventies at an archeological site called Vergina.



The anchor for Arche Seleukeia was prominently displayed on a number of Seleukid coins and was attributed to Seleukos I, but I can't remember why.
Ahh, I always wondered what it is! Does someone know the reason why they used an anchor?


Btw, all the faction Icons are... beautyful. That sounds like dull fanboy-behaviour but it is true. I wonder where the EB-team takes the time spent on all that recherche. Are there historians amongst you?

[Foot]

Btw, all the faction Icons are... beautyful. That sounds like dull fanboy-behaviour but it is true. I wonder where the EB-team takes the time spent on all that recherche. Are there historians amongst you?

Most of us are historians-turned-coders, rather than the other way round.

Foot

[Eduorius]

Ahh, I always wondered what it is! Does someone know the reason why they used an anchor?


Ok according to the story that a friend that knows more of the Seleucids than me... the anchor is like also the symbol of Apollo.

The mother of Seleukos had a dream with Apollo and when she woke up she got this ring with the anchor symbol.

When Seleukos was born, he also had this mark on his body, but his mother never told him until he marched with Alexander to the Persian expedition.

[the_handsome_viking]

Is the Arverni center object crossed by the two hammers a drum or a cauldron?

And if so is the cauldron a symbol of immortality within the Celtic world?

[Anthony]

Is the Arverni center object crossed by the two hammers a drum or a cauldron?

And if so is the cauldron a symbol of immortality within the Celtic world?

As above:

Arverni - Hammer and cup, the objects credited to Sucellos, who the Arverni used to 'replace' Cernunnos, the god of Gallic druids, with whom they had a falling out


This was answered; Sucellos, in imagery, has a hammer and a cup.

[Karielle]

Interesting stuff, prompted me to go do some reading up myself..

I love the amount of effort put into creating so much depth and immersion, and though oft-repeated, I must add my voice to the masses - thank you all for the excellent work, EB team! :applause:

[antiochus epiphanes]

i read somewhere that seleukos carried a trinket anchor around with him, hence the anchor symbol on seleucid coins.
can someone tell me thats true? ive no idea

[abou]

Like Edourius mentioned, it originates from the story of Seleukos being the son Apollo.

Apparently his mother had a dream of being united with Apollo, in which Apollo told her to give a signet ring with anchor symbol to her resulting son. When she woke she found the ring in the bed. When Seleukos was born there was a birthmark in the shape of an anchor on his thigh. Seleukos was told all of this by his mother before he left for Persia.

Seleukos also had incredible strength and size of frame. So great that he was able to wrestle a bull that had gotten loose during a sacrifice on Alexander's campaign. Because he had subdued the bull much of his imagery contains bull's horns, which is comparable to Alexander's ram horns.

These stories seem to have begun with Antiochus I in order to cement the dynasty and to give a divine origin to it. It certainly helps to explain how a man could basically reconquer Alexander's empire and would have done so if not for an assassin's blade.

[Boyar Son]

But lemme get this straight, the Makedonian icon is based on the modern flag?

[Foot]

But lemme get this straight, the Makedonian icon is based on the modern flag?

??? where did you get that info. It was a royal symbol for the kings of pella, as Teleklos states above.

Foot

[Antagonist]

http://img149.exs.cx/img149/388/britons6aw.jpg

So what about this swirly blue fellow, the symbol for the Casse? I gather that such motifs are not uncommonly found in designs throughout the British Isles (and elsewhere) but is anything known of their meaning or particular significance?

Antagonist

[Boyar Son]

??? where did you get that info. It was a royal symbol for the kings of pella, as Teleklos states above.

Foot

Ah thx, but has anyone talked about carthage? and any real reason why the Romans used the eagle?

[abou]

The eagle played an important part in Roman religion. The most obvious is the bird's use in augury, but also in that it is the animal and a symbol of Iuppiter. And, of course, by the time of Marius there was only the legionary eagle whereas before it could have been the legionary boar, wolf, etc.

[The Celt]

As above:

Arverni - Hammer and cup, the objects credited to Sucellos, who the Arverni used to 'replace' Cernunnos, the god of Gallic druids, with whom they had a falling out


This was answered; Sucellos, in imagery, has a hammer and a cup.
BTW Anthony I was thinking of asking you if perhaps the Holy Grail everybody was searching for in the medieval ages was actually a Catholic carry-over from the Celtic Pagan past. It would explain why nobody in Judea or the Levant had ever heard of it before the Crusades.:juggle2:

[Anthony]

It's a theory, but unprovable. It certainly has Celtic elements, but it certainly wasn't simply all lifted from Celtic myth; there are, aside from blatant references to Christianity, many symbolic Christian aspects and attitudes within it that wouldn't make sense in context of a Celtic pagan myth.

[The Celt]

It's a theory, but unprovable. It certainly has Celtic elements, but it certainly wasn't simply all lifted from Celtic myth; there are, aside from blatant references to Christianity, many symbolic Christian aspects and attitudes within it that wouldn't make sense in context of a Celtic pagan myth.
Yeah thats kinda were I got lost. It could just be a coincidence. Especially since the Celtic religion has a lot in common with Indian Hinduism yet we certainly know for sure that those cultures never had any contact what-so-ever with each other that we know of!:dizzy2:

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

What does the Sweboz-Symbol mean? Is it a reference to the Klingon Empire?~;)

[Anthony]

Yeah thats kinda were I got lost. It could just be a coincidence. Especially since the Celtic religion has a lot in common with Indian Hinduism yet we certainly know for sure that those cultures never had any contact what-so-ever with each other that we know of!:dizzy2:

Actually, we don't know that either. The language of India has relations to Celtic languages, though both have an Indo-Euro root. However, we do know eastern fire cults did make their way into western Europe at various times, and we also know Celts got at least as far as India working as mercenaries, and the proto-Celts emerged from the Caucasus mountains, and spread in both directions (those that went west became Celts). They'd have been quite close to the well-spring of Indian religion; trading groups could probably make exchanges from that region with the Indians. It may be coincidence, but it is possible also some may have been very early cultural exchange before the proto-Celts settled in the west to form the early Hallstatt culture and become actual Celts.

[The Celt]

Actually, we don't know that either. The language of India has relations to Celtic languages, though both have an Indo-Euro root. However, we do know eastern fire cults did make their way into western Europe at various times, and we also know Celts got at least as far as India working as mercenaries, and the proto-Celts emerged from the Caucasus mountains, and spread in both directions (those that went west became Celts). They'd have been quite close to the well-spring of Indian religion; trading groups could probably make exchanges from that region with the Indians. It may be coincidence, but it is possible also some may have been very early cultural exchange before the proto-Celts settled in the west to form the early Hallstatt culture and become actual Celts.
Cool! Never been so glad to be wrong before!:book:

[Nabaati]

The language of India has relations to Celtic languages, though both have an Indo-Euro root.

I just want to clarify that the indic languages (and I'm not talking about dravidian or any other non-ie languages) and celtic languages are both indo-european languages.


and the proto-Celts emerged from the Caucasus mountains, and spread in both directions (those that went west became Celts).

I don't believe that this is commonly held anymore. Wikipedia has an interesting section on celtic origins.

[CaesarAugustus]

What about the Saka and Getai faction symbols? I can't really even tell what they're supposed to be, but they look cool.

[Anthony]

I just want to clarify that the indic languages (and I'm not talking about dravidian or any other non-ie languages) and celtic languages are both indo-european languages.



I don't believe that this is commonly held anymore. Wikipedia has an interesting section on celtic origins.

That's why I said they have an indo-euro root; sorry if it was worded awkwardly. It is to note though that Celtic and Indic languages are closer to eachother than some other Indo-Euro languages relatively closer to India, though that's probably more coincidence. And the latter is still somewhat commonly held. The bronze axe people originated in the Caucasus mountains, and then went west, we know they did. They met with the beakers. The theory goes their culture syncretized, and they eventually discovered iron working, and became Celts. There's been no changes to necessarily disprove it as a viable theory. Wikipedia has a terrible article on the Celts that is plagued by vastly out-dated information, as are most of their articles on Celts. And their article on Carthage was a travesty too, but some one fixed that up pretty well, though it still has some bad issues (like the 'Punic Armed Forces' section). I don't trust wikipedia much.

[Maeran]

http://img149.exs.cx/img149/388/britons6aw.jpg

So what about this swirly blue fellow, the symbol for the Casse? I gather that such motifs are not uncommonly found in designs throughout the British Isles (and elsewhere) but is anything known of their meaning or particular significance?

Antagonist


They appear in megalithic tombs all along the western seaboard of Europe. There aren't just 'swirls,' but spiral based patterns are certainly very common, particularly in the British Isles.

I personally think that these designs are far older than the celtic culture in the area, but I suppose you could imagine some of them being later carvings.

I have heard the suggestion that they might symbolise the sun or moon, and another that they resemble Australian aboriginal spirit maps.

I don't know what significance they had for their neolithic and bronze age creators, or their iron age celtic successors- but they really feel like an ancient British motif.

Better than the Herne Giant anyway as that has doubtful provenance. Designs like the white horse of Uffington have been found on coins from just before the Roman invasion (although that horse may be later itself), so that's an alternative.

Other common symbols were probably of profound importance to the people, but too widespread for a faction symbol, such as wheels, boar and horned men.

[Anthony]

The type of symbol does show up on Celtic era art and objects. It predates Celts but locals seem to have adopted it, and it shows up reasonably often enough on iron age British objects.

[Nabaati]

[I'm not going to talk about faction icons, so if you're looking for that, move to the next post]


And the latter is still somewhat commonly held. The bronze axe people originated in the Caucasus mountains, and then went west, we know they did. They met with the beakers. The theory goes their culture syncretized, and they eventually discovered iron working, and became Celts. There's been no changes to necessarily disprove it as a viable theory.

As this is not my field and I don't remember where I read about celtic origins, I will defer to your wisdom.


It is to note though that Celtic and Indic languages are closer to eachother than some other Indo-Euro languages relatively closer to India, though that's probably more coincidence.

I want to head off any conspiracy nuts here. I can't speak about the phonology or syntax of either language, but certainly they are phonetically very different in the same way that Hausa is very different from Arabic. I would most assuredly say that Celtic should not be considered western Sanskrit. Again, I just want to head off any conspiracy nuts.


Wikipedia has a terrible article on the Celts that is plagued by vastly out-dated information, as are most of their articles on Celts. And their article on Carthage was a travesty too, but some one fixed that up pretty well, though it still has some bad issues (like the 'Punic Armed Forces' section). I don't trust wikipedia much.

People seem to love to disparage wikipedia around here, but in general, for what I need it for, I think wikipedia is great. I find its main problem is well-meaning (I hope) people reading one book, deciding they are an expert, and writing as if that one book represented the consensus of the field. That and not citing. Anyhow, may I humbly suggest that if you do find factual error, that you do everyone a favor and edit the page.

[Watchman]

Outta curiosity, in the museum I work in certain types of bronze axe-heads are specifically termed "celts" in the English portion of the info text. IIRC it was mentioned they were thought to have come from the southeast (ie. around southern Russia or thereabout) - any connection with the proto-Celts perhaps C?