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How to get Sherwood archers as The English???
If u can get them at all in SP
How to get Sherwood archers as The English???
If u can get them at all in SP
The woodsman's guild allows them to be recruited. If you need info on getting one, check out Davebaby's Guide to Guilds in The Guild->New Members->M2TW Guides.
pike master
03-10-2007, 07:09
yu can only use them in mp if you are playing early or all eras.
One big gripe I have about Sherwood archers is that their upkeep/performance ratio is prohibitive. They're half the unit size of other archers, cost almost twice as much (3-4 times per archer) upkeep, and can't even set pikes in the beginning. Also, by the time you popped out enough archers to be offered a woodsman's guild, you probably have access to high-end archers which (in my opinion) are much better value. I can picture a few uses for them like guarding walls or tight battlegrounds, but I don't even bother with them anymore. /rant
I am pretty much in agreement, Dumas. I tried them a bit and wasn't impressed at their performance to cost ratio. I prefer retinue longbows with the upgrades the WG gives.
One big gripe I have about Sherwood archers is that their upkeep/performance ratio is prohibitive. They're half the unit size of other archers, cost almost twice as much (3-4 times per archer) upkeep, and can't even set pikes in the beginning. Also, by the time you popped out enough archers to be offered a woodsman's guild, you probably have access to high-end archers which (in my opinion) are much better value. I can picture a few uses for them like guarding walls or tight battlegrounds, but I don't even bother with them anymore. /rant
Sherwood archers aren't mean't to be used like longbows. They are like battlefeild assassins or Hashasim, but with longbows. The "can hide anywhere" ability, small unit size, 2HP, and lack of armour are the tells. They aren't mean't to stand in a battle line. They are mean't to ambush and zip around letting off a few arrows where the opportunity presents itself.
pike master
03-11-2007, 05:26
the best way to use them is as reserves behind your stakes. if used to attack or as flanking units they are at their best. in a spearhead attack they lead the way to carve a path while weaker units come up from behind to cover their rear and flanks.
these guys are not skirmishers they are crack melee units with bows.they have the 2 hit points the forlorn hope should have had imo.
As far as I know, Sherwood Archers can't "hide anywhere" but are "experts at hiding in the woods". And honestly, I can't say that I noticed much difference between their ability in hiding in the woods vs. any other unit hiding in the woods. I guess they can spearhead an attack, but wouldn't any calvary unit be preferable for that job considering the charge bonus? Or even any dismounted knight units--they'll tear through Sherwood Archers head to head, shield bug or not.
Okay, they may have circumstantial uses like hanging around the back and charging when needed. Personally for their price, I'd rather have another group or two of Retinue Longbowmen (average around 3x the number) in the back dealing multiples of Sherwood Archers' damage in the back, and able to hold their own when needed to charge.
Agree with people posting they are for ambushes and melee flanking - very good at both. I would further add that one great thing about half-sized 2HP units like Sherwood Archers (though the same is true of bodyguards and others too) is that they skill up so much faster than regular units. They have better ranged attack than any other English archer unit, which means they consistently get more kills. So while the unit may not get as many kills as the higher end archers, they definitely get more kills per man, which means better XP, and in the end they gain performance boosts much more quickly and thus fight even more effectively. The 2HP means they can see much more flanking action than normal archer units, and again contributes to higher XP - each man takes a hit without losing any fighting ability, and may live through considerably more battles as a result, gaining XP along the way. It also means that man himself has more experience in one battle, because he didn't die when he was hit, and thus instead piles up more kills (kills that a fresh soldier would get in a 1HP unit). The overall effect is that the unit should actually be better than a unit twice its size but 1HP, since a dead 2HP man equals 2 dead 1HP men (2 hits were scored by the enemy on the unit), but they have the added advantage that numerous guys with 1 hit against them will survive the battle, where those are losses in the 1HP unit.
So, it is easy to overlook, but the half-sized 2HP units actually have quite a lot of good edges over their 1HP counterparts, and this is especially the case where they have superior stats.
Foz,
But to train them and work them up to those exp levels, or even to use them, requires a lot of micromanaging. They aren't like horse archers in that respect, where (while micromanagin pays) you can target them and forget them for a while.
If you just use them as another archer unit, their combined firepower is about that of a retinue longbow unit. To shine they have to flank into a pinned unit (or rear attack one). And they are SO fragile, you have to micro manage them. If they are charged by cav or flanked in turn, say goodbye.
They are, to me, a gimmick unit. Fun to mess with when bored, but not terrible useful in the greater scheme. It's easier to kill generals with jav cav than try to do it with sherwood archers. At least jav cav can be ignored a few while handling some other things as they can do their attacks on skirmish. To flank with sherwoods you have to take them off skirmish and charge them into melee where they are prone to sudden death syndrome if the enemy reacts.
So, while they do have coolness points, that's not enough for me. Not until I discover a better use for them, if ever.
pike master
03-11-2007, 20:12
the trick is that one on one a lot of units will overwhelm them by numbers and wrapping despite their fighting ability. when you have a unit even peasants behind them to hold the flanks they are near unstoppable in an assault where you arnt taking on enemy cav such as a castle assault or forest combat.
a lot of that holds true for the forlorn hope which i still could swear before patch 1.1 they had 2 hit points but after the patch they only had 1. but i could have been mistaken.
I refer to these guys as a "boutique" unit. Just agreeing with what many posted already. Don't really know how useful these guys can get but it's not looking too promising for them to be a part of any of my future English armies.
Mega Dux Bob
03-12-2007, 17:30
a lot of that holds true for the forlorn hope which i still could swear before patch 1.1 they had 2 hit points but after the patch they only had 1. but i could have been mistaken.
Considering the forlorn hope is Renaissance equivalent of a Soviet penal battalion don't you think giving it an elite status is kind of silly? They were there to take the bullet for the vetern troops.
If you want to use Sherwood Archers try the quick battles; anytime the English army is chosen they almost inevitably have Sherwood archers. They just look damn lame; English longbowmen in white tights, just like 50's Hollywood saw them.
Tiberius maximus
03-12-2007, 18:59
me i use them on the wings of my archer lines to take out the cavalry wings of the opposing, since they are very effective vs. cav
Considering the forlorn hope is Renaissance equivalent of a Soviet penal battalion don't you think giving it an elite status is kind of silly? They were there to take the bullet for the vetern troops.
I only remember Forlorn Hope with 2 hitpoints, they could annihilate generals!
And a bullet sponge wouldn't be made of people who could use two-handed swords because that took quite a lot of experience as far as I know. So they basically are the veteran troops.
pike master
03-12-2007, 20:28
my impression was that they were a form of dirty dozen. in example war experienced criminals who were offered an opportunity to lead near suicidal assaults with an assurance of not getting beheaded or hanged. probably given a mercenaries pay as well for more incentive.
but i could be wrong. but it sounds good nonetheless.
Sentinel
03-12-2007, 23:55
I accepted the woodsman guild series at Caen in my English campaign. This eventually resulted in the HQ and I produced a few Sherwood archers.
They are good units, but have one major drawback, that they could only be retrained a Caen where they were produced. As the main battlefront moved slowly eastward it soon became impractical to return depleted units for retraining.
As the campaign progressed I used other castle settlement for archer production. I concentrated all my archer production in just a few settlements, but was never offered a second woodsmen guild.
Eventually I stopped producing Sherwood Archers in favour of Retinue Archers that could be retrained anywhere.
Good point, Sentinel. Replacements for special units that can't be built reasonably easily anywhere is a major deterent to their use. And I really hate to disband them because it takes forever to get them "home" for replacements if they have more than a little experience. That creates disincentive to put them into dangerous situations, which is exactly what makes special units worthwhile.
Sentinel
03-13-2007, 01:06
Another advantage of the Sherwood Archers is that their smaller unit size enables them to gain experience faster. Fewer men to divvy the kills.
This advantage is then lost by the fact it is so difficult to recoup any losses by retraining. You can only merger units back to full strength.
Hollerbach
03-13-2007, 03:31
I'm bemused by all this talk of moving units back to base to re-train. Why would anyone do this? In RTW it made sense, but not anymore. See This thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1461653#post1461653) for discussion of this.
TevashSzat
03-13-2007, 04:01
In theory, these 2 hp half strength elite units would be just as attractive to use as other normal number units. Take the general's bodyguard for expamle, it has half the number of men compared to normal unit size, but the 2 hp and its pretty awesome stats makes it easily comparable in usefullness and effectiveness to other similar heavy cavalry.
Nah, what makes general's bodyguards so attractive is the automatic replacements ~;)
Nah, what makes general's bodyguards so attractive is the automatic replacements ~;)
That and the fact that a unit of bodyguards tend to hit almost the same number of melee troops in a charge compared to a unit of other horsemen double the size, especially in an impromtu situations where the charge is not at the perfect angle.
pike master
03-13-2007, 06:02
now that would be a good idea. like say if you are in your own territory all your units slowly get replacements. that would be cool.:idea2:
HI, my first post here, hehe.
If you take a close look at all english archers you will notice that in melee they use different weapons. Retinue longbowmen is only the one useing sword. They got high melee attack but not with bonus vs armor. Other longbowmens including Sherwood archers useing little hammers in battle which got bonus vs armoured units. If i am not mistaken, Sherwood archers got melee attack 17 with v1, making them more dangerous unit than Forlorn Hope, and i guess more dangerous than Jannichar heavy Inf .hashishim or battlefield assasins dont get bonus vs armor.
The problem for me is that i got headquarters in Nottingham and minor guild in Caen , and cannot upgrade it to major on turn 160. trained millions of bows there and still.. I got master Horsebreeders guild with Academy trained Demi lancers and train lancers with silver shevron already, but cannot get master woodsman, which is strange.
Mega Dux Bob
03-13-2007, 20:57
I only remember Forlorn Hope with 2 hitpoints, they could annihilate generals!
And a bullet sponge wouldn't be made of people who could use two-handed swords because that took quite a lot of experience as far as I know. So they basically are the veteran troops.
They weren't using those two handed swords for hand to hand combat.
http://miniatures.de/html/int/nomenclature02.html
verlorne Haufe (G)
Forlorn Hope Literally a "lost bunch" of Imperial skirmishers, usually armed with two-handed swords and halberds, who ran ahead of the army to disrupt enemy pike blocks. Musketeers and arquebusiers were similarly employed. The task was very hazardous, and these troops were written off as casualties as soon as they were comitted to battle.
They were for breaking the enemy's pike shafts
Can one faction have both a master guild and a GM guild? Or does the latter count as the former also?
Can one faction have both a master guild and a GM guild? Or does the latter count as the former also?
That's my guess - probably counts as both, though I'm not certain. It would make sense though - if you were allowed to have both, you'd be stacking faction-wide bonuses most of the time, which I think is exactly why master is limited to one per faction already. HQ gives +2 to whatever globally instead of +1 like masters do, so it essentially is like having 2 master guilds, which seems like plenty benefit enough without throwing in the added ability to have another master guild on top of it. The notion seems further supported by the inability to attract said master guild while having a HQ of the same type - I too have tried this, to no avail. Looks like another good reason to diversify guild types.
As far as I know, you can have one Masters and one HQ per guild type, but not two of either. So even if you don't have a HQ of (for example) a Woodsman's guild, you cannot have two Masters Woodsman's guild.
nikolai1962
03-15-2007, 11:24
verlorne Haufe (G)
Forlorn Hope Literally a "lost bunch" of Imperial skirmishers, usually armed with two-handed swords and halberds, who ran ahead of the army to disrupt enemy pike blocks. Musketeers and arquebusiers were similarly employed. The task was very hazardous, and these troops were written off as casualties as soon as they were comitted to battle.
Interesting. Didn't know that.
The "forlorn hope" i'd read about in english military history was the name given to a group of volunteers who'd go first into the breach of a city assault. They were paid a very large bounty as the death rate was around 90%.
pike master
03-15-2007, 15:01
just because something has a copyright doesnt mean its entirely accurate. i dont think anyone but a suicide bomber or bonzai kamikaze would storm the enemy knowing they are going to die.
im sure the forlorn hope had some kind of incentive such as a being freed from a hanging or beheading if they led the assault. usually assaults are led by the elite units in an army and not the rabble.i hardly think criminals and misfits would have the comitment of a hospitaller knight to attack knowing you will certianly die.there had to be something in it for them.thats how the criminal mind works.
rabble was usually used by the mongols and timurids who would drive them like cattle into the enemy to cause confusion. or like the russians and chinese did in their wave assaults during the big one and the korean war.
DukeKent
03-15-2007, 20:56
As far as I know, you can have one Masters and one HQ per guild type, but not two of either. So even if you don't have a HQ of (for example) a Woodsman's guild, you cannot have two Masters Woodsman's guild.
You can have more than one masters guild due to conquest of a masters guild from another faction. I have had as many as 3 or 4 master thieves guilds at once.
That's true: Too bad it's next to useless. Spy's are the easiest units to level in this game and I'd prefer pretty much any other guild to Thieves guild. For some reason, AI only seem to build thieves guild (probably because it's the first offered) and rarely anything else.
TevashSzat
03-16-2007, 02:15
Yep, factions like Milan which have a strong financial base just start spamming assasins and spies everywhere mid game till they are killed. It is really bothersome since all of your generals must have really high security bonuses or they die
That's my guess - probably counts as both, though I'm not certain. It would make sense though - if you were allowed to have both, you'd be stacking faction-wide bonuses most of the time, which I think is exactly why master is limited to one per faction already. HQ gives +2 to whatever globally instead of +1 like masters do, so it essentially is like having 2 master guilds, which seems like plenty benefit enough without throwing in the added ability to have another master guild on top of it. The notion seems further supported by the inability to attract said master guild while having a HQ of the same type - I too have tried this, to no avail. Looks like another good reason to diversify guild types.You can have more than one MGs if you conquer settlements that already have one. I have 1 Assassin HQ and 2 MGs, 1 Thieves HQ and 2 MGs in my game (the AI loves these). With these guilds I can't tell whether the bonuses stack, though, since the spies and assassins can only get the traits once.
I believe only the English can get Woodman's Guild, so this probably won't work. Maybe you could lose/give the settlement with the guild, wait till you get a new offer + upgrade offer in a different settlement, then retake the original one, hoping that the AI didn't destroy it (which I believe only the Timurids do).
So, Sherwood archers restricted to be unique Nottingham unit lol. Too bad.
I accepted the woodsman guild series at Caen in my English campaign. This eventually resulted in the HQ and I produced a few Sherwood archers.
What was the starting experience for those Sherwoods when trained at Caen ?
In theory, these 2 hp half strength elite units would be just as attractive to use as other normal number units. Take the general's bodyguard for expamle, it has half the number of men compared to normal unit size, but the 2 hp and its pretty awesome stats makes it easily comparable in usefullness and effectiveness to other similar heavy cavalry.
This is a good point, and also the key is to train them up to gold level. I do the same with bodyguards. A new general goes straight to battle and keeps fighting until the first gold chevron and then 'the council' decides what to do with him, governor or commander as a career.
Whatever the career, this bodyguard unit can now be relied on to produce +-200 kills per battle.
The same is true for Sherwood Archers, I've managed to get 2 units up to 2 silver cherons, and they do no less than 120 kills per battle. You have to use them wisely but once they level up, like Berserkers in MTW/VI, they are incredibly fun to play and they are very reliable.
Actually in a siege they killed like 100 men each using arrows alone.
HI, my first post here, hehe.
If you take a close look at all english archers you will notice that in melee they use different weapons. Retinue longbowmen is only the one useing sword. They got high melee attack but not with bonus vs armor. Other longbowmens including Sherwood archers useing little hammers in battle which got bonus vs armoured units. If i am not mistaken, Sherwood archers got melee attack 17 with v1, making them more dangerous unit than Forlorn.
Actually this is NOT true for Sherwood Snipers. They use swords. I don't know what their secondary weapon attributes are i.e if they have armor piercing or not but they defintely use swords.
Can one faction have both a master guild and a GM guild? Or does the latter count as the former also?
According to Daveybaby's guide on guilds (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75649 (Daveybaby's guide on guilds)):
...one guild per settlement, and one master’s guild per faction... Also, there can be only one HQ for each guild in the game, so you will have to score points quickly to try to beat your opponents to the punch.
Naturally you can gain more by conquest.
Sentinel
04-17-2007, 01:54
Sinan
What was the starting experience for those Sherwoods when trained at Caen ?
I was offered the Woodmen's Guild about turn 32. By turn 61 this was upgraded to Mater Woodmen's Guild then by turn 72 to the Woodmen's guild HQ.
The Woodmen's Guild.
Should have given me +1 experience to all archer trained at Caen.
Actually gave me NO experience for any archer.
Master Woodmen's Guild
Should have given me +1 experience to all archer trained at Caen and a global +1 experience (including Caen). Total +2 for Caen and +1 elsewhere.
Actually gave me only +1 experience for any archer trained anywhere (including Sherwood archers).
Woodmen's Guild HQ.
Should have given me +1 experience to all archer trained at Caen and a global +2 experience (including Caen). Total +3 for Caen and +2 elsewhere.
Actually gave me only +2 experience for any archer trained anywhere (including Sherwood archers).
The local +1 experience for the settlement given the woodmen's guild series does not seem to be applied. This is a known bug that was reported prior to patch 1.1.
Ahh Thanks a lot. I was wondering if it is actually a bug. Now... how do I fix it. I'm having the same problem in my current English campaign, and I REALLY want my Sherwood Archers trained with +3 experience.
Sentinel
04-17-2007, 11:12
Sorry! but I have never seen a fix for this so can't help you. If you do find one let me know
Thanks. Will do.
Someone HEEEELLLLP.!!!
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