Imperial Diet II

[Ituralde]

Hear, Hear!

I absolutely have to agree with the representative of Count Manford! Chancellor von Kassel has been successful in all his promises.

It's also good to hear of the Emperor's plans for his Chancellorship. I believe his plans to be wise, although an expedition to free Constantinople can be a risky undertaking, for little gain.

I'm much more concerned with our posessions in Outremere and if we truly try to establish a seperate kingdom there with Crusading Counts from all Houses then we should instead focus our energies on conquering the proposed settlements. Maybe we should even attempt to call a second Crusade to reinforce our posessions and lead the decisive push against those settlements. Surely each House wants to be represented in the founding of such a glorious new kingdom under the rule of the Emperor!

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: It is unlikely that the Pope would sanction a crusade so soon after the one to Jerusalem, but if the opportunity should arise towards the end of the Kaiser's Chancellorship, I am sure he would seize it. The timing may well coincide with a move against Damascus.

On another matter, I have received a communication from the Kaiser on the allocation of newly conquered settlements:




In accordance with the draft Charter for Outremer, Adana and Acre will formally remain Imperial territories, but be governed by Bavaria and Swabia respectively.

Breslau is assigned to Franconia and Ragusa to Austria.

I have deliberated hard over the assignment of Marseilles. I recognise that France falls within the natural sphere of influence of Swabia and acknowledge that Swabia has shown some restraint in halting its "rebellion".

However, I cannot ignore that rebellion or be seen to condone it. I therefore assign the settlement to Bavaria, in recognition of Gerhard Steffen's initiative in taking the city by a coup de main and above all in gratitude to the Duke of Bavaria's outstanding accomplishments as our Chancellor.

I anticipate that this last decision may cause some dissension within Swabian ranks, but I can assure members of that House that as a former Swabian myself, I feel no prejudice against them. I am willing to start our relationship from a clean slate and work with them to expand their holdings. I warn them, however, that any further "rebellion" will be just as unproductive as the last.

Henry

[Warluster]

prinz Jobst stands,and whispers

Hm... I certianly don't like this term of 'rebellion'

Jobst speaks louder, but in a controlled tone

Good speeches Duke Von Kassel and kaiser Henry, many things have been made clear.

I have had a thought, but since Ulrich just reached the Holy Land, and either Adana or Acre is now Swabian, maybe Ulrich would wish to govern the Swabian one? It would mean he can't govern Metz anymore, which could be given to Duke Friedrich?

Jobst sits

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: My Prince, Acre has been informally assigned to Swabia but with Hans as the governor. It was Hans who took the settlement and the Kaiser has faith in the ability of his eldest son to help prepare Outremer for the trials to come.

As Steward, I believe Friedrich governs Staufen, the capital of Swabia, just as he would if confirmed as the Duke.

That leaves Metz available to either Ulrich or Elberhard. As Steward, Friedrich has the power to appoint either man as Count of Metz. Both are destined to serve in Outremer, but this is not an obstacle to governing a settlement in the homeland - most crusaders govern estates back home.

My Prince, your mention of Ulrich does raise the issue of the leadership of Swabia, which the Kaiser wished the Diet to formally decide this session. He proposes the following clarifying Charter Amendment:

Charter Amendment 8.1
Clause 1:
Amend 1.4 by adding: If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor can build what he likes. The Chancellor may upgrade a settlement at any time (ie upgrade the walls regardless of a build queue), unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the governor.
Clause 2:
Amend 4.7 by adding: If a Duke resigns, the Kaiser appoints a successor.

Assuming that Charter Amendment 8.1 passes, the Kaiser will appoint a Duke of Swabia. He wishes to consult the House of Swabia on this appointment. If members could contact him privately on who they wish to be the new Duke, their views would be considered when making the appointment.

Charter Amendment 8.1 requires two seconders. Also, if anyone else has some clarifying amendments to the Charter that they would like included together with the two existing clauses, please propose them and they can be bundled together.

[Northnovas]

The count of Zagreb stands to address the Diet...

Mr. Speaker I would like second CA 8.1.
The 1.4 makes sense having been in that position. The Chancellor is on top of these matters and could expedite an expansion because of the opportunities that arise and knowing what is in the treasury.
Clause 2 4.7 would also make sense having this matter before the house in recent memory and it should be the responsibility of the Kaiser to decide such an honourable position.

[FactionHeir]

The servant reads a message from his Count:

My noble lords, the Count of Bern wishes to express his support for CA 8.1 which the Emperor in his wisdom proposed.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

I must wish my Duke, Otto von Kassel, a sincere "well done." In his time he has managed to reverse many previous wrongs. I wish Kaiser Henry the same successes in his Chancellorship.

In addition, I second Charter Amendment 8.1.

[TinCow]

*The Bavarian lawyer stands once again.*

My lords, I have received word from the Count of Nuremburg and I am here to communicate his wishes for this session of the Diet.

*The lawyer unrolls a parchment and begins to read.*

Electors, we live now in a Reich that none of us has ever known. We are truly the Holy Roman Empire now in deed as well as name. We are the Pope's most favored nation, we control the ancient and holy city of Rome, and we are the Christian Guardians of the Papal seat in Jerusalem. Yet, there is still a blot on our Christian souls.

We fight and bleed for the Glory of God. We have defeated Muhammadan Jihads and are restoring the Word of Christ to the East. Yet to this day we remain political allies of the Moorish infidels! These beasts, these demons, who have subjugated and slaughtered the Iberian Christians, they are our formal political allies! How can we claim to be a holy Christian nation when we commit such diplomatic atrocities? There is only one way to purge ourselves of this shameful stain: we must throw down this alliance and let all know that we will not give aid and comfort to infidels. Therefore I propose the following Edict:

Edict 8.2: The Chancellor must end the alliance with the Moors. The Chancellor may not seek an alliance with any Muslim nation for any reason.

I note with pleasure the Kaiser's plans for an independent domain in the East. It is right and fair that these lands be kept out of the formal control of the Ducal Houses. The Lands of Christ are not prizes to be squabbled over by future generations of noblemen who may have less pure aspirations than our current crop of pious Romans.

However, I am displeased with clause 8 of the Kaiser's proposed Amendment. This clause specifically allocates certain territories to each House. While is this right and proper under the current circumstances, it does not allow for change and thus I cannot support it. What if, many years from now, a certain House falls under the sway of Demonic forces? From their right of command in the East, they could inflict great damage on the Papal Seat and the rejuvenated Christian Kingdoms. Therefore I urge the Kaiser to reword clause 8 to allow for a change in the Household assignment of provinces should he or a future Kaiser deem it necessary. I see no problems with the current allocation of Holy provinces to the Houses, but when making such significant changes to the Imperial Charter, it is important to consider future circumstances, no matter how unlikely.

On a final note, I have been greatly vexed by the amount of heresy that exists in the region. In my time in Adana, I have received reports that nearly 40 percent of the peasantry of this province is under the sway of heretic priests who openly conduct Devil worship. The problem is equally bad in the province to the west, where rumor has it that the local Devil worshipers have risen up against the Turks and thrown out their Muhammadan masters. As much as I hate Muslim sacrilege, they at least have the good sense to recognize the good works of Christ's teachings. The pagan idolaters who plague these lands are far, far worse. I urge the Kaiser to do all in his power to immediately combat the spread of this perfidious disease of the soul.

*The Bavarian lawyer finishes reading the scroll and looks up.*

I believe my Lord would also wish to second Charter Amendment 8.1. Accordingly, I hereby do so in his name.

[Ignoramus]

Lothar von Aachen, a retainer of Herr Ulrich, stands and addresses the Diet.

Mein lord, Ulrich Hummel, wishes me to convey his thoughts to the Diet.

I have heard that the Kaiser intends to create a kingdom in the Outremer, yet he intends to keep it under Imperial control. The Holy Land is not a personal possession of the Kaiser. Nein, indeed, those who have won those lands for themselves ought to govern them for the Church. Have not we sacrificed our lands, wealth, and honours in Europe? Should we not, therefore be free from Imperial control? Therefore, I draft an edict to grant those their due rights.

Charter Ammendment 8.2
The lands in the Levant shall be assigned by the Council of Crusaders. The King of the Outremer shall also be elected by the Crusaders. The Diet shall still discuss matters concerning the Holy Land, but the Council of Crusaders can put forward more than the maximum number of edicts, providing they concern the Holy Land.

I also applaud Count Mandorf's proposed edict. He is truly a pious man, and is concerned not only for things temporal, but also for things spiritual. Therefore, I second Edict 8.2.

Ulrich Hummel.

Lothar bows and sits down.

[Northnovas]

The Count of Zagreb stand to address the members...

I would like to second Edict 8.2 the Moors have been useful fighting a common enemy the French but I feel their is no need to be allied with them any further. The new lands will take some time to convert and feel that we maybe be battling non christian faiths for sometime. It would only make sense to refrain from such alliances and to use our resources for alliance with other Christian neighbours.

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: On the basis of responses recieved, if Charter Amendment 8.1 passes, then the Kaiser will appoint Friedrich Scherer as Duke of Swabia. Regardless, Friedrich as Steward is currently responsible for providing the standing orders for the Household Army of Swabia.

The Kaiser would be grateful if all governors could provide build queues for their settlements.

[Ituralde]

I thank our wise Emperor for granting us Ragusa. This will help secure our Southeastern border even more against Venetian aggressions.

Before I comment upon the other Edicts and Ammendments passed so far, let me put into formal wording my ideas about a Crusade I had earlier.

Edict 8.3:
As soon as possible a second Crusade to the Holy Lands should be called by Emperor Henry. The target would depend on the current situation but should be one of the places mentioned in the Emperors draft for the Kingdom of Outremere.
At least one Franconian and Austrian general should participate so that each House will be represented in this new Kingdom.

I believe this will not only serve to give the required push forward to securing more lands, but by that time reinforcements for our possessions might already be needed. This Edict will serve both purposes.

I agree with the proposals made by this body so far and support them. The one thing I can not agree to yet is Ulrich Hummel's proposed Ammendment. I can not pass judgement on it yet, because I am afraid there are not enough informations contained in it. Maybe Ulrich Hummel would care to elaborate on his ideas. Who will make up this Council of Crusaders he speaks of? What will happen if the original members of the Council decease, who will follow them and by what right? What falls under their influence, and how much influence will be left to the Diet and the Emperor concerning the goings in Outremere?
These are all viable questions that need to answered, before such an Ammendment can be seconded.

Furthermore I have to disagree with Mandorfs fears of Houses being too involved in the drafted Charter. It clearly says that the only independent military presence will be the King and his Army. The Crusading Counts will not be permitted to lead their own private wars. I agree that arrangements for the future should be made, but the presumptions made by Emperor Henry are much more to my liking than those of Count Mandorf. If a House should really become posessed by deamons and bring turmoil upon the Empire, we have several legislative steps, namely an Emergency Diet and the Edicts and Ammendments proposed there, to keep the situation under control, once it arises. I don't think a preemptive damnation of all Houses should be necessary.

[FactionHeir]

Servant:

Consider your edict seconded, my Duke

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: A list of edicts and their first two seconders has been posted at the entrance to the Diet:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1461425&postcount=1

[TinCow]

OOC: Edict 8.2 was also seconded by Ulrich Hümmel (Ignoramus)

[OverKnight]

Gunther speaks:

My lord will second edict 8.3.

However, my lord would remind the Diet that any Catholic nation in good standing can join a Crusade. We still have have ex-Crusader armies from Scotland and England in our territory. Fortunately, neither nation is at war with us, but imagine if France marched a Crusader Army through our territory and we ecountered a similar situation with them.

[TevashSzat]

I am sorry for my absence these past few days for I was extremely busy with many matters and could not spend too much time within the Diet. It does seem that I will become the new Duke of the House of Swabia. I hope to further increase both the power of the Empire and the House.

From the look of things, a lot has happened the time that I was away and I shall be quick to get informed on what has happened during my absence.

[AussieGiant]

My Lord, gentlemen of the Diet.

Firstly my I congratulate two of our finest;

Otto von Kassel for his excellent management of the Reich and his amazing series of positive achievements.

Kaiser Henry for his excellent outline of how the Reich should conduct itself in the Holy Land and in general. I personally don't care for the concepts outlined by Lord Himmel. We are creating a "middle" strata of management that is going to complicate things in my opinion. In my opinion and as is usually the case, the Kaiser has thought this through. His outline is comprehensive enough and holds enough informantion to govern the region effectively AND provide flexibility and interest for all the Houses.

Lord Mandorf raises some points, and they should be considered. Still as Duke Leopold states, the Reich has more than enough "checks and balances" in place, AND they have been tested.

I will consider at this time what edicts I would like to put forward.

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: On the matter of the allocation of settlements in Outremer, I would make a couple of observations to Lord Mandorf.

First, it has been the practice of the Reich that allocations of settlements to Houses are permanent. Even if a settlement falls to an enemy, it is returned to the House that owned it. What is being proposed in Outremer is no more than a continuation of this practice. The reason for this practice is to give Houses a degree of autonomy and avoid giving the Kaiser excessive leverage. Speaking purely hypothetically, and not based on recent history at all, one could say that the possibility of rogue Kaiser is at least as likely as that of a rogue Duke.

Second, the settlements in Outremer will formally remain Imperial provinces, even though administered by the relevant House. The Crusader Counts who govern the provinces will be selected by the King of Outremer, who in turn is picked by the Kaiser at each full Diet session. Therefore the Kaiser does retain some indirect influence over how these settlements are governed.

In practical terms, the Kaiser hopes that the equal and fair partition of Outremer between the Houses will ensure their continued support for our presence there. Far from home, the crusaders remain vulnerable and will rely on future Diets and Chancellors to ensure that their defence is well resourced. The Kaiser believes that this is most likely if each House has a stake in this defence.

[OverKnight]

Gunther speaks:

After all this discussion of rogue nobles, my master has decided to propose a Charter Amendment that had been discussed in back channels (OOC thread) many years ago.

CA 8.3: In addition to the Kaiser, an Emergency Session of the Diet may be called by the Prinz, or if three of the four House leaders (Dukes or Stewards) agree to do so.

Please be aware that Duke Otto is not casting any doubts on Kaiser Henry, in fact my lord fully supports the Emperor and his agenda. However his personal experience in some past matters has led him to believe this might be a wise precaution to take.

[TinCow]

*The Bavarian lawyer, never lost for words, rises once again.*

I see wisdom in the words of the Diet Speaker. Indeed there is more precedent for a morally corrupt Kaiser than for an entire House fallen to the Devil. I will inform my Lord of this line of reasoning and I am sure he will agree that the Kaiser is right in these regards.

There is also much wisdom in Charter Amendment 8.3. Indeed, the reluctance of a corrupt Kaiser to call an Emergency Session caused much angst in this Diet in years past. By allowing a majority of the Dukes to call an Emergency Diet Session if they deem it necessary, we would be ensuring that no one man can pervert God's law in the Reich ever again. I do not believe this would be dangerously erode the Kaiser's powers either, as the simple ability to call an Emergency Session does not guarantee the passage of any legislation during that Session. This is prudent legislation and I hereby second it in the name of Lord Mandorf of Nuremburg.

[FactionHeir]

Servant:

Consider your amendment seconded by my master, Duke of Bavaria.
It will certainly prevent any future emperor from being immune to prosecution during their term as chancellor and ruin us all.

[Kagemusha]

representative of Count Von Mahren

Dear Electors.I have received an letter from my lord considering and edict proposal:

"Gentlemen.As im now departed from the Crusade.My oath for my now late Duke Von Saxony, about not entering the diet when crusading has been fullfilled and i will soon be present in the diet once more. I think that Franconia has deserved the honour to take Krakowa from Polish. Taking of this city would secure the Reichs eastern flank concerning Franconia and Austria for once and for all. Electors should conisder the misery of the Franconian people when Polish raiding parties are all the time destroying their harvest´s and pillaging their towns and villages.By taking of Krakow this can be stopped.

So i hereby propose Edict. 8.4 Franconia is allowed to capture the city of Krakow.Unless Pope directs and ultimatum for the Reich for the cessation of hostilities with Poland.

Count
Jonas Von Mahren

[GeneralHankerchief]

Conrad Salier:

As much as it pains me to do so, I cannot support the proposed Charter Amendment 8.3.

Kaiser Heinrich is one man, my friends. Was one man. His corpse is now rotting, and has been so for a long while. He can do no more harm. Do you not trust the current Kaiser, Henry, do do the right thing? Has his term so far not been just? Do you not think him wise enough to choose the appropriate successors?

Yes, the power of the office has been transgressed. But we should punish the transgressor, not the office itself.

I also second Edict 8.4.

[Dutch_guy]

A Franconian servant enters


Günther von Kastillien shall also second von Mahren's edict 8.4, the Polish threat should be neutralized before the Russians decide to enter the fray.

The servant bows and leaves the Diet.

:balloon2:

[Warluster]

Prinz Jobst stands

I shall fourth Edict 8.4

I also second CA 8.3

I have not a lot to say for now, but am in full support of Franconia taking Krakow.

Prinz Jobst sits and leans over to Friedrich and whispers to him, then sits up

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: The list of edicts and amendments has been updated at the front of the Diet. (There was some confusion over edict numbering, but I trust the scribes have rectified that.)

The deadline for edicts is 2pm Thursday UK time. I believe some Houses have draft further Edicts in preparation - I urge them to submit them in a timely fashion.

[TevashSzat]

Fellow electors, after reviewing the current status of the House of Swabia, I have some announcements to make.

First, I wish to promote Ulrich to the title of the Count of Metz. He has served Swabia well and I do not hesitate rewarding those who deserve praise.

Secondly, I wish to propose Edict 8.5: The Swabian House army will be allowed to take one French settlement after the Pope has rescinded his threat of excommunication. However, should the French invade Swabia with an army greater than 1000 able bodied men or an army lead by a respected commander, the Swabian army shall destroy said army and then counterinvade French territories

I am a religious man and do not wish for the Empire to be excommunicated again yet the French are not good Catholics either. I shall abide by the Pope's wishes, but should the French test my patience, I will not stand by and let them pillage our lands and kill our people without revenge.

I heartily support Edict: 8.3 for every member of the Empire should have the right to increase their holdings fairly and defend themselves from unnecessary aggression should it be needed. Amendment 8.3 however, I cannot support. Kaiser Henry has been a great and wise ruler. I do not think that he will ignore serious situations and fail to call for an Emergency Session of the Diet. I myself would stand to gain a great deal of power should this Amendment pass, but should it do so, Emergency Sessions may be recklessly called which will slow down any current plans as we spend many days or weeks discussing what we will do.

[AussieGiant]

My Lord,

The House of Austria is in the process of finalising some legislation. It will be submitted before the deadline.

While I understand Lord Scherer's frustration, any undefined legislation that involves invading a foreign country in Europe can not be supported due to the threat of excommunication. I therefore could not support Edict 8.5

[FactionHeir]

Servant
My master's support for CA 8.3 is not borne out of animosity towards the current emperor Henry, long may he live, but as a backup plan for the future, when an emperor is less objective or becomes deranged. It is better to have this amendment in place now, than regret not having it later.

[Warluster]

I wish to second Edict 8.5

THat is all.

[Ituralde]

Let me just put forward those Edicts that I haves discussed within the House of Austria and there were seconded by the Count of Venice and the Count of Zagreb respectively.

Edict 8.6

During the next Chancellors term a group of merchants and priests shall be dispatched to at least one of the following places, preferrably both:
- The far reaches south of the great Saharan desert.
- The Nile upward in the south of Egypt.
A group should consist of at least three merchants and priests each.

Edict 8.7

The Chancellor shall try to find peace with the Venetians as soon as possible. A moderate amount of florins may be used to persuade them. Should the Venetians decline, subsequent raids towards their holdings in Durazzo and Thessalonica, resulting in possible razing or extermination of those cities, shall teach them the error of their ways.

Furthermore I will second Edict 8.5. This is the proper form to ask for French territories and as such I will support it. No one should have to suffer at the hands of their enemies without a chance to strike back!

[FactionHeir]

Servant

My master wishes to second edict 8.6

[AussieGiant]

My Lords,

I will second edicts 8.6 and 8.7..

[AussieGiant]

Standing again

I'd like to point out gentlemen that more than a few edicts do not mention excommunication as a valid cessation point.

I hope all members of the Diet and those in the Holy Land, will make the assumption that we will not plunge this Reich back into being excommunicated at the expense of regional attacks on our enemies!!?

[econ21]

Diet Speaker: This full session of the 8th Diet is now concluded. There will be a 24 hours period of voting on the edicts and amendments. Normal discussion may continue.

[TinCow]

*The Bavarian lawyer stands.*

The Count of Venice is right to be concerned about excommunication. I would like to remind all members of this Diet that the enacted Charter Amendment 6.7 specifically requires a 2/3 majority vote of the Diet before any decision that can lead to excommunication can be made. This Amendment specifically supersedes the Household Armies amendment and the right of the Chancellor or Dukes to declare war on enemies within their lands. Therefore anyone who undertakes an act which results in excommunication without first receiving the consent of 2/3 of this Diet will surely be subject to the fullest prosecution of the law by this very Diet. I believe this, combined with the Reich's sincere desire to remain in communion with the Church, will be more than enough to prevent any such thing form occurring again.

[AussieGiant]

The Count of Venice stands with a rue smile on his face

I just love the way lawyers communicate. It's so precise...and direct.

Looking in the Bavarian lawyers direction

You seem to know your topic my good sir. Could I tempt to you join my legal team, with of course the most appropriate and hefty increase in pay? Or do I have to make you an offer you can't refuse?

[Stuperman]

Gerhard steffen breaks his relitive silence to speak to the lawyer from his camp.

So should the french invade while the papal order stands, are we to just give them our land? or do they want our women too?

OOC: suposed to be sarcastic

[AussieGiant]

Without standing the Count of Venice immediately replies

What you do my good sir is anything you wish...that doesn't break and edict or get this Reich excommunicated!!

[FactionHeir]

Servant

I believe the pope cares little what occurs in our own lands, more about what we do in other nations' lands.

OOC: You can have a threat of excomm and you can still happily bash any froeign army in your own territory without getting excommed (papal standing will still suffer though)

[econ21]

The Diet Speaker looks at the record of the Diet deliberations. There is a page and a bit left at the end of volume, but what the heck, blow the expense. He closes the book and calls for a fresh one.