Chavez Plans 'Collective Property', even New York Times Criticizes Hugo

[Crazed Rabbit]

Our lovable demagogue from South America just keeps making things worse, in wholly predictable fashion. Price controls have, as any econ 101 student could tell you, resulted in shortages. Naturally, Chavez's solution is even more controls.

Even the NYT is a critic of Chavez now:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/23/opinion/23fri2.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fEditorials&oref=slogin

President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela had an especially good time baiting President Bush during their recent competing tours of Latin America. But demagoguery and showmanship will do nothing to solve Venezuela’s 20 percent inflation rate — now the highest in Latin America — and growing food shortages that are punishing the poor whose interests Mr. Chávez so loudly declaims.

Venezuela’s biggest problem is that there is no one to question Mr. Chávez’s increasingly erratic decisions. The National Assembly has given him the power to rule by decree for 18 months. So instead of seriously addressing Venezuela’s serious problems, the showman has settled for more showmanship.

As Simon Romero reported in The Times, Venezuela’s currency, the bolívar, has lost about a fifth of its value since January. The government has now announced it will introduce a new “bolívar fuerte,” or strong bolívar — worth 1,000 old bolívar, or roughly 25 American cents. It is also reintroducing a coin known as the locha — to be worth one-eighth of a bolívar fuerte — which last circulated in the 1970s.

Mr. Chávez appears to be counting on a psychological boost from a currency with three fewer zeros and a coin that evokes financially happier days. But by drawing attention to the bolívar’s recent weakness and — even worse — to the government’s capricious response, the maneuvers could further undermine confidence, rather than raise it.

Government spending — fueled by the nation’s oil wealth — rose an extraordinary 48 percent last year, and is one of the main forces driving inflation. Private-sector investment, meanwhile, has weakened since Mr. Chávez decided to nationalize utility companies earlier this year.

Price controls intended to help the poor buy food and hold down rising prices have led to a scarcity of staples like beef, chicken and milk. Threats to nationalize grocery stores and jail their owners — whom Mr. Chávez accuses of hoarding — have only made the situation worse.

Venezuela still has billions of dollars in foreign currency reserves. And Mr. Chávez has used some of the oil wealth to push social programs — including for literacy and health clinics — to improve the lives of Venezuela’s poor. But we fear that any good is quickly being undone by the old strongman formula of cronyism, corruption and incompetence.

I'm actually a bit surprised; Hugo is a celebrity among most leftists in the US.

Here's the link to his collective farm plans (which always turn out well):
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/25/america/LA-GEN-Venezuela-Chavez.php


CARACAS, Venezuela: President Hugo Chavez announced Sunday that his government's sweeping reforms toward socialism will include the creation of "collective property."

Vowing to undermine capitalism's continued influence in Venezuela during his television and radio program "Hello President," Chavez said state-financed cooperatives would operate under a new concept in which workers would share profits.

"It's property that belongs to everyone and it's going to benefit everyone," said Chavez, a close ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro whom opponents accuse of leading Venezuela toward Cuba-style communism.

Chavez — a leftist former paratrooper popularly known as "El Comandante" — said his government fully respects private property, but pledged to replace capitalist ideals with socialist principles on cooperatives such as cattle ranches and farms.

"It cannot be production to generate profits for one person or a small group of people that become rich exploiting peons who end up becoming slaves, living in poverty and misery their entire lives," he said.
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The legal framework for collective property will be established under a forthcoming constitutional reform proposed by Chavez. The Venezuelan leader has appointed a committee to prepare a blueprint for the pending reforms, which will be put to a vote in a referendum.

Chavez, who hosted Sunday's program from a ranch in Venezuela's sun-baked plains, said his government would move to expropriate large ranches and farms spanning more than 300,000 hectares (740,000 acres) and redistribute lands deemed "idle" to the poor under a nationwide agrarian reform.

Since the reform began five years ago, officials have redistributed over 1.9 million hectares (4.6 million acres) of land that had been classified as unproductive or lacked property documents dating back to 1847, according to a recent government census.

Critics say reform has failed to revive Venezuela's agriculture industry, which does not produce enough food to satisfy domestic demand. The government has been forced to import food amid shortages of staples such as meats, milk and sugar.

"If Mr. Chavez really wants to help Venezuela's poor farmers, he must offer them technical assistance and sufficient financing because land doesn't become productive without investment," said opposition leader Alfonzo Marquina. "We're only seeing increasing shortages and more expensive products."

I won't say 'I told you so'...yet.

Crazed Rabbit

[Marshal Murat]

Well, I think I understand Hugo's position.

[Ice]

The guy is an idiot to put in simply. All this sounds like is the road to totalitarian failed socialism.

The "land reform" he is talking about is doomed to fail. I believe Zimbabwe tried that before.

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

The guy is an idiot to put in simply. All this sounds like is the road to totalitarian failed socialism.

The "land reform" he is talking about is doomed to fail. I believe Zimbabwe tried that before.

I think he is using the idea that come out of Argentina, where closed down factories were taking over by the workers and made into worker co-ops with full profit sharing.

read more about it here (long read) link to story/ (http://newint.org/features/2004/06/01/factory-occupations/)

[Lemur]

President for life ... collectivization ... price controls ... abolishing the profit motive ... haven't we been down this road before? Multiple times? Why does anyone suppose it will work now?

Wow. Just wow.

[Beren Son Of Barahi]

President for life ... collectivization ... price controls ... abolishing the profit motive ... haven't we been down this road before? Multiple times? Why does anyone suppose it will work now?

Wow. Just wow.

i never said it was a good idea...simply that he is stealing something that seems to resonate with the populations of south America...

[Ice]

President for life ... collectivization ... price controls ... abolishing the profit motive ... haven't we been down this road before? Multiple times? Why does anyone suppose it will work now?

Wow. Just wow.

Oh, I know. Amazing how people can praise this man. Even more amazing is how educated people can.

This will fall apart, like most of the others that have gone down this road.

[Ice]

I think he is using the idea that come out of Argentina, where closed down factories were taking over by the workers and made into worker co-ops with full profit sharing.

read more about it here (long read) link to story/ (http://newint.org/features/2004/06/01/factory-occupations/)

Could you summarize the article for me? Not to sound lazy, but I just read a large volume of articles on trade for my macroeconomics class, and I really don't feel like reading all that.

[BDC]

Chavez is giving London cheap petrol in return for 'help' from London planners. So expect Venezuela to soon be full of really badly designed sink estates which everyone avoids. Maybe the evil capitalist shop keepers can be imprisoned in them.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The intent is noble, but (as noted above) the method is fatally flawed.

There is a lot of knowledge, skill, and capital outlay involved in modern farming. Plow it -- seed it -- fertilize it is NOT the sum total of what needs to be done. While taking away the land of the padrones may have an emotional appeal and provide the necessary arable land to increase farming yields, it will not provide the capital needed or the knowledge and skill to put it together effectively.

He may be trying to emulate Argentina's successes -- does anybody know if they're gonna get the Prez again or his distaff this time? --with this program, but it doesn't "gel" in the same way as a worker-owned manufacturing set-up might.

Instead of infusing the bulk of government funding into infrastructure and education, the government is reaching out to control more. Such bureaucratization lends itself to ineffeciencies -- and this would be exacerbated by any corruption and cronyism (if such are problems for Venez. as they are in Mexico or Iraq).

[Tribesman]

At last a decent Chavez thread , well done Rabbit you managed it finally .

[Goofball]

*cuts and pastes own post from previous Chavez thread*

Chavez is an idiot.

[Xiahou]

*cuts and pastes own post from previous Chavez thread*

Chavez is an idiot.
Seconded. :bow:
I might add to that "power-hungry tyrant" too though, but that doesn't make "idiot" any less true...

No matter how many times it fails, this class-warfare, populist claptrap still sells though doesn't it?

[Adrian II]

God, why do I have to do all the work around here?

That NYT article is a compilation of guesswork and sheer nonsense, too much for me to even bother with.

Venezuelan inflation for instance has never been as low as under Chavez. It's up from 16 percent last year. Before Chavez, Venezuelan inflation was never below 30%. In 1994 it was 70,8%, in 1996 it was 103,2%. Get the picture?

As for the state of the economy, why don't you just read the material of the Venezuelan Central Bank for yourself. Darn it, do some research for a change, stimulate your brain.


According to preliminary estimations, gross domestic product (GDP) at constant prices registered a variation of 11.8% in the fourth quarter of 2006, as compared to the same period last year. This result, along with increases of 9.8%, 9.4% and 10.1% in the first three quarters, determines an annual increase of 10.3% and reaffirms the sustained, significant and wide-spread growth process of the different economic sectors and activities observed for thirteen consecutive quarters, where the average growth is 12.9%.

The dynamism of the economic activity during the fourth quarter of 2006 was again driven by the increase in consumption, investment, credit to productive sectors and a higher level of government expenditures to support social programs.

From an institutional point of view, the significant GDP growth in the quarter was mainly due to the surge of 14.0% in private sector activity, while the public sector grew 2.3%.

ECONOMIC ACTIVITIES

The positive performance of the economic activity in the fourth quarter was due to the booming of non petroleum activity which grew by 13.1%; whereas, gross value added (GVA) of petroleum activity decreased by -3.7%.

Petroleum activity:

Public petroleum activity increased by 0.5% in the fourth quarter, fuelled by an increase in the gross value added of crude production. Private petroleum activity, on the contrary, decreased 17.8% mainly due to preventive maintenance works in the industrial plants of some companies that process crude from Faja del Orinoco (Orinoco Oil Belt).

Non petroleum activity:

Growth in the non petroleum activity was significant, harmonious and wide-spread, especially in the manufacturing industry 12.4%, commerce 22.7 % construction 30.5%, communications 20.9% and general government services 3.6 %. This performance is associated to an increase in the employed capacity of the corporations and to a higher domestic aggregate demand, which is supported by the sustained trend towards economy monetization, employment recovery, minimum wage increase and intensification of government social programs.

Link (http://www.bcv.org.ve/EnglishVersion/c4/index.asp?secc=pressreleases&Codigo=5461&Operacion=2&Sec=False)

The problem is that the true issues are masked by this economic success, and Chavez is falling for his own illusion.

Chavez rule by decree is not my main worry. It is a fully constitutional power which was granted to President Andres Perez in 1974, to President Jaime Lusinchi in 1984 and to President Velasquez in 1993. The Assembly can undo any of his decrees if they want to.

Not even the scrapping of the term limit worries me, as such. What worries me is the underlying weakness of Venezuelan democracy, the lack of a viable parliamentary opposition. There is none, period. The only serious opposition is a bunch of oil millionaires, landed fascists and sick puppy generals who are hiding behind commercial radio stations.

I have said it before: the deeper problem is the lack of political organisation in Venezuela, the result of a long and, alas, not atypical evolution since Bolivarean times. It spells disaster for the long term, whether Chavez stays in power or is 'relieved' by some Washington-approved gorilla.

Chavez coalition alone consists of 26 parties, which he is now trying to unify into one Socialist Party. His heavy-handed approach is wrong and self-defeating because it causes his electorate to crumble, even among the poorest who adore his (effective) social programs. The result will be more fall-out, more confrontation, more caciquismo instead of democracy. :no:

[BDC]

What worries me is the underlying weakness of Venezuelan democracy, the lack of a viable parliamentary opposition. There is none, period.

Everyone can see the impact that has had in Britain for the last few parliaments, and we are a very long established democracy, with no chance of anyone actually seizing power.

[Goofball]

God, why do I have to do all the work around here?

That NYT article is a compilation of guesswork and sheer nonsense, too much for me to even bother with.

Venezuelan inflation for instance has never been as low as under Chavez. It's up from 16 percent last year. Before Chavez, Venezuelan inflation was never below 30%. In 1994 it was 70,8%, in 1996 it was 103,2%. Get the picture?

As for the state of the economy, why don't you just read the material of the Venezuelan Central Bank for yourself. Darn it, do some research for a change, stimulate your brain.


According to preliminary estimations, gross domestic product (GDP) at constant prices registered a variation of 11.8% in the fourth quarter of 2006, as compared to the same period last year. This result, along with increases of 9.8%, 9.4% and 10.1% in the first three quarters, determines an annual increase of 10.3% and reaffirms the sustained, significant and wide-spread growth process of the different economic sectors and activities observed for thirteen consecutive quarters, where the average growth is 12.9%.

The dynamism of the economic activity during the fourth quarter of 2006 was again driven by the increase in consumption, investment, credit to productive sectors and a higher level of government expenditures to support social programs.

From an institutional point of view, the significant GDP growth in the quarter was mainly due to the surge of 14.0% in private sector activity, while the public sector grew 2.3%.

ECONOMIC ACTIVITIES

The positive performance of the economic activity in the fourth quarter was due to the booming of non petroleum activity which grew by 13.1%; whereas, gross value added (GVA) of petroleum activity decreased by -3.7%.

Petroleum activity:

Public petroleum activity increased by 0.5% in the fourth quarter, fuelled by an increase in the gross value added of crude production. Private petroleum activity, on the contrary, decreased 17.8% mainly due to preventive maintenance works in the industrial plants of some companies that process crude from Faja del Orinoco (Orinoco Oil Belt).

Non petroleum activity:

Growth in the non petroleum activity was significant, harmonious and wide-spread, especially in the manufacturing industry 12.4%, commerce 22.7 % construction 30.5%, communications 20.9% and general government services 3.6 %. This performance is associated to an increase in the employed capacity of the corporations and to a higher domestic aggregate demand, which is supported by the sustained trend towards economy monetization, employment recovery, minimum wage increase and intensification of government social programs.

Link (http://www.bcv.org.ve/EnglishVersion/c4/index.asp?secc=pressreleases&Codigo=5461&Operacion=2&Sec=False)


The problem is that the true issues are masked by this economic success, and Chavez is falling for his own illusion.

Chavez rule by decree is not my main worry. It is a fully constitutional power which was granted to President Andres Perez in 1974, to President Jaime Lusinchi in 1984 and to President Velasquez in 1993. The Assembly can undo any of his decrees if they want to.

Not even the scrapping of the term limit worries me, as such. What worries me is the underlying weakness of Venezuelan democracy, the lack of a viable parliamentary opposition. There is none, period. The only serious opposition is a bunch of oil millionaires, landed fascists and sick puppy generals who are hiding behind commercial radio stations.

I have said it before: the deeper problem is the lack of political organisation in Venezuela, the result of a long and, alas, not atypical evolution since Bolivarean times. It spells disaster for the long term, whether Chavez stays in power or is 'relieved' by some Washington-approved gorilla.

Chavez coalition alone consists of 26 parties, which he is now trying to unify into one Socialist Party. His heavy-handed approach is wrong and self-defeating because it causes his electorate to crumble, even among the poorest who adore his (effective) social programs. The result will be more fall-out, more confrontation, more caciquismo instead of democracy. :no:

Like I said, Chavez is an idiot.

[Adrian II]

Like I said, Chavez is an idiot.Quite. But my point was that he is not the only one. ~;)

[Crazed Rabbit]

At last a decent Chavez thread , well done Rabbit you managed it finally .

Well, I'm so glad that you approve. I thought of you when I wrote it, and yearned ever so much that you would be happy with it. Now I see that you are, and nothing could bring me greater joy.

Seriously, tribesy, you need an intervention for trolling. I'm going to run out quick and gather some of your friends and we'll all come back and together convince you that there's more to forums than trolling. Hold on, it shouldn't take very long.

*a while later* Alright, the whole gathering friends part may take a bit...longer...than expected, due to...unforeseen difficulties...

Anyways, hang in there. We'll help you yet.


As for the state of the economy, why don't you just read the material of the Venezuelan Central Bank for yourself. Darn it, do some research for a change, stimulate your brain.
I'm sorry, I don't get dispatches from them free every weekday. :rolleyes:

And I'm not even going to bring up the whole Kansas 'creationism is taught in schools!!!!111one!11! OMG!' thread. Well, not anymore. At least in this post.

Crazed Rabbit

[Goofball]

Quite. But my point was that he is not the only one. ~;)

Brevity is the soul of wit.

~:flirt:

[Tribesman]

Well, I'm so glad that you approve. I thought of you when I wrote it, and yearned ever so much that you would be happy with it. Now I see that you are, and nothing could bring me greater joy.

Well wabbit if you read all the previous Chavez topics where you rant about nothing of significance you will see that I mention certain subjects every time .
It took you a long time to get around to them :yes:


As for the state of the economy, why don't you just read the material of the Venezuelan Central Bank for yourself. Darn it, do some research for a change, stimulate your brain.
Don't be silly Adrian he couldn't even find the world bank website for the poverty figures, the Venezuelan central bank for economy figures would be way beyond his ken .:thumbsdown:

[Crazed Rabbit]

There, there, tribesy. Your affliction tears me up, it does. We'll get that intervention for trolling together quick as can be, as I can see you need it. It seem trolling for you is just your soul crying out for help and forgiveness. :sweatdrop:

I just need to nip off and find a few fellows who'd be willing to help you beat this disease. Shouldn't take...too...long.

Crazed Rabbit

[Husar]

Do I see personal attacks and kindergarten bahaviour?:inquisitive:

Why can't you just get along?

I love Tribesman as much as I love that Rabbit, so please try to love each other as well, lot's of kisses,

Husar.:juggle2:

[Kanamori]

:gathering:

[TevashSzat]

It should be noted that Bush is partly to blame for all of the anti US feelings in South America. When he first came into office, he planned all sorts of things that would help the poeple of Latin America, but after 9/11, he sorta forgot about Latin America and started going to war and the rest everyone knows...

[discovery1]

It should be noted that Bush is partly to blame for all of the anti US feelings in South America. When he first came into office, he planned all sorts of things that would help the poeple of Latin America, but after 9/11, he sorta forgot about Latin America and started going to war and the rest everyone knows...

Sure, and all those years of us supporting harsh dictators has nothing to do with that.....

[Marshal Murat]

Nothing like kicking out a Guatemalan president to start the decade...
Or was that Costa Rica?
Iran?

Socialism is the opposite of American capitalism, so it must be better, right?
It's to bad that the U.S. government is run by the military-industrial complex.

Chavez is doing his darnedest to get America out of South America so he can exert his socialist influence. However, his antics have caused the big-players to really reconsider supporting him. If he were more analytical and intelligent, he could get far.
While it's easy to blame America, I would remind everyone that the Philippines gave up Spanish dictatorship for American imperialism.

[Del Arroyo]

While it's easy to blame America, I would remind everyone that the Philippines gave up Spanish dictatorship for American imperialism.

Well they didn't exactly have a lot of choice in that, did they?

[Adrian II]

If he were more analytical and intelligent, he could get far.He has gone through a remarkable change from just another putschist military officer to a politician in his own right who was elected and re-elected time and again with a wide margin in regular elections. And he has been amazingly effective, following his program to the letter and creating a promising dynamic. Food consumption has been rising for years now and it is up by another 10% this year. That's where the so-called shortages come from: the poor finally have the means to feed themselves, they can send their kids to school and cooperative efforts to improve their situation are encouraged and financially rewarded instead of trampled by riot police and death squads.

I know some here don't give a hoot about the fate of Venezuela and that's fine, but don't pretend you do merely in order to bash Chavez. It won't wash. It's just funny to see some members go 'tsk, tsk' about bad Hugo whilst giving the impression, to put it mildly, that they couldn't find Venezuela on a map or point out Hugo in a picture if he wore a tutu and pink polka dots.

[Tribesman]

Oh well back to the original comments .

Price controls have, as any econ 101 student could tell you, resulted in shortages.
Thats bollox isn't it :yes: price controls exist in almost every aspect of every economy .
The shortages in this case are mainly the result of problems with the established buyers and hauage contractors(which stangely often happen to be one and the same) , the reason Chavez is an idiot over this is because he didn't address it even though he had already encountered the problem over the coffee industry .


Here's the link to his collective farm plans (which always turn out well):

And your point is ????? Since they don't always turn out bad you have no point .

from the article
Critics say reform has failed to revive Venezuela's agriculture industry, which does not produce enough food to satisfy domestic demand. The government has been forced to import food amid shortages of staples such as meats, milk and sugar.
errrrrrrrr.......government imports food ...shock.... scandal ......then again which governments do not import food:dizzy2:


"If Mr. Chavez really wants to help Venezuela's poor farmers, he must offer them technical assistance and sufficient financing because land doesn't become productive without investment," said opposition leader Alfonzo Marquina.
Ah the real problem , at least they managed to tag it on in the last paragraph
The assistance , education and financing are a long term thing , Chavez is trying to push things through while the planned developments in those fields are still only just getting under way . Not a very clever thing to do .

So finally....
I won't say 'I told you so'...yet.
.....thats a good idea since you havn't really said anything apart from two very questionable statements .
Its sad really rabbit , you take an issue where you can really go to town on Chavez policies , yet manage to make a complete bollox of it .:shrug:

[Spino]

President for life ... collectivization ... price controls ... abolishing the profit motive ... haven't we been down this road before? Multiple times? Why does anyone suppose it will work now?

Wow. Just wow.

Fool the sheeple into thinking you're a good shepard and they will bleat a path to your door... :idea: :thumbsup:


Wait... do lemurs even have doors?!? :huh2: :inquisitive:

[Soulforged]

[...] What worries me is the underlying weakness of Venezuelan democracy, the lack of a viable parliamentary opposition. There is none, period. The only serious opposition is a bunch of oil millionaires, landed fascists and sick puppy generals who are hiding behind commercial radio stations. There's groups of journalists also against his policies, principally against his military program, wich they see as a fachade for communist discipline, propaganda and as an instrument to overshadow the real political issues. However you don't have to forget that a "bunch of oil millionaires " isn't exactly weak, after all we're talking about money here, aren't we...

[Adrian II]

There's groups of journalists also against his policies, principally against his military program, wich they see as a fachade for communist discipline, propaganda and as an instrument to overshadow the real political issues. However you don't have to forget that a "bunch of oil millionaires " isn't exactly weak, after all we're talking about money here, aren't we...I believe there is also more and more fall-out within his own movement. If he does not heed the warning signs, all he will be left with is his followig within the armed forces.

And I do not confuse the parliamentary opposition, which is very weak, with the extraparliamentary opposition. The media clique are counting on their wing of the army to do the dirty work one day.

Meh. I have a bad feeling. :no:

What is your view, as a well-informed Latin American?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Oh well back to the original comments
:thrasher:Trollin' ain't easy but it's necessary, huh tribesy?


Thats bollox isn't it :yes: price controls exist in almost every aspect of every economy .
Lol - 'Look, I'm tribesy, I make up crazy things to justify my basic opposition to everything anyone states!'


And your point is ????? Since they don't always turn out bad you have no point .

LOL, I'd like to see that in a court case. 'Your honor, a huge majority of our cars may have burst into flame and killed their occupants, but not all did, so the prosecution has no point.' :clown: :laugh4: :idea2: ~:wacko: :laugh4: ~:wacko: :laugh4:


from the articleerrrrrrrrr.......government imports food ...shock.... scandal ......then again which governments do not import food~:wacko:
Trading food to eat something different is different from importing so as to not starve to death. 'watch out! Another poor generalization that threatens to shatter any logic is headed our way!'


Its sad really rabbit , you take an issue where you can really go to town on Chavez policies , yet manage to make a complete bollox of it .:shrug:


At last a decent Chavez thread , well done Rabbit you managed it finally .

So in which quote are you lying?
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

But seriously peoples, who wants to help me with this intervention thing? It's for a good cause.

Crazed Rabbit

[Tribesman]

What a muppet , you finally manage to raise a subject where there are plenty of opertunities to validly lay into the regime you despise , as opposed to the multitude of other Chavez topics where you position has become untenable after even the briefest examination , yet you manage to make a complete balls of it by demonstrating that you have absolutely no knowledge on the subject at all .
Another case of yourself reading an article critical of Chavez and jumping in with a big " me too" . yet giving it no thought whatsoever .
And yet again once your ignorance on the topic becomes obvious you attempt to turn it into nothing but a slagging match to disguise your failings .


Trollin' ain't easy but it's necessary, huh tribesy?

~:rolleyes: So wabbit given the complete absence of anything in any of your posts (apart from the nonsense in the first and this little gem of excrement...Trading food to eat something different is different from importing so as to not starve to death:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: )that is even remotely related to the subject who is the troll ?

[Banquo's Ghost]

OK gentlemen, personal attacks are simply not on, however much you love each other.

This thread is going to take a nap.

:closed: