EB Ruined My Greeks

[Sohwen]

I was under the impression that Koinon Hellenon represented a weak coalition of GREEKS...But why is it so Spartan oriented? Why would the Level 1 system of government for Athens be the Spartan Agoge Klerouchy?~:confused:

I love EB, and I appreciate the countless hours the modders have worked to bring it to us, so I hope I do not sound like a jerk.

[Brightblade]

yea let's make the greeks totally gimp, get wiped out in 2 turns, and ignore the fact that sparta always took hegemony during alliances with athens historically against exterior foes, then u can enjoy your greeks better!

[Sohwen]

As I understand it, Brightblade, some people have a problem with the Koinon Hellenon being too ahistorically strong in EB...Perhaps you've found the solution?

But my main question was: Why would the level 1 system of government of Athens be the Spartan Agoge Klerouchy? Did the Athenians adopt the Spartan agoge system?

[Ower]

for the KH, there is quite little diference between goverment 1 and 2,
1- is the spartan tipe, 2- is the "athenian" tipe

[Zim]

I don't think the type 1 government is supposed to be the "standard" govt. type for the KH. It's just meant to enable the recruiting of certain unique units and represent areas with some Spartan influence(Crete can build one, for instance, although I don't think they get any unique units out of it yet).

I think that Type 2 govts actually enable more units in most provinces where you have a choice, and offer better bonuses as well.

[hoom]

KH has Sparta as capital not Athens.
I believe it represents a historically short lasting, Sparta led confederation that included Athens so Sparta is capital & you can use the Spartan Agoge government.

With the Type 2 government, you can shift the dominant political type to Athenian & move capital there but the faction is intended to at least start out Sparta dominated.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Just as Zim45 said. For most other factions G1 is "homeland" while G2 "expansion, but this is NOT like this for KH.
For greeks G1 and G2 are equal and are just 2 alternatives greek city can follow.

[Foot]

I asked this question myself and the answer was quite simple and rather understandable. The gov1 for KH is the spartan agoge because of the way our gov system works. gov1 allows for the highest factional MIC level, which, given the militaristic history of the spartans, seemed most appropriate for them. In fact, the spartans in the koine are less influential than the other cities, as the gov2 rtepresents their style of government.

Basically it was a conceptual decision.

As for the strength, if the KH had stayed together it probably would have been quite strong, but internal bickering pushed it apart. We cannot represent that in RTW, so they stay together and continue to be powerful.

Foot

[Sohwen]

Thanks for responding, I understand now. I just thought system 1 was the standard government for your entire faction.

[Pelopidas]

Yes, it's important to remember that the Greeks were pretty strong.
Even the Romans weren't fool enought to fight all Greeks at a time...

The problem for the greeks was that for them, the best and greatest opponent was alweys the neighoubouring Greek cities...

The Chremonidan League was quite a power, it takes 10 years to the Makedon to beat them, by the siege of Athen, and with the backup of the Seleukids.
And...some Greeks leagues sided with the Makedonians.

I like Koinon Hellenon as they are in EB !

[Morte66]

Yes, it's important to remember that the Greeks were pretty strong.
Even the Romans weren't fool enought to fight all Greeks at a time...

The problem for the greeks was that for them, the best and greatest opponent was alweys the neighoubouring Greek cities...

Yeah. I was thinking this morning that whilst the Greeks (i.e. pagan greek-speaking peoples) were pretty respectable in war and commerce, and leaders in culture, they were dumb as rocks when it came to geopolitics. In all those hundreds of years from the beginnning of polis civilization to the Roman/Sassanid takeovers, they got together effectively for about ten years around Marathon/Salamis/Plataea and another dozen under Alexander. The rest of the time, they were more interested in fighting each other than their common enemies.

[Pelopidas]

They were never united under Alexander ^^
In 333, the Spartan king engage a fight against Alexander's regent.
And then, Sparta fought against a huge Makedon army + Greeks league, and was barely defeated.

And after all, Alexander was a Makedonian, not a Greek ( in the mind of this guys at this time...)

And during the Persian invasion, nearly half of the cities were on Xerxes side...

The greatest Greek unity achieved was, I think, the Chremonidan League, with Sparta, Athens and Rhodos in the same team...but such a power was too dangerous for the other Hellens, so they sided with Antigonos against them...

[Dooz]

Far be it from me to pass up a golden opportunity to shamelessly plug my AAR. It deals with the KH and the bickering and so on, so I think it makes sense to bring it up here. ~:) Relive what it would have been like had the Chremonidean League stayed in tact..... or will it? You'll only know if you tune in. ~;)

The link is in my sig, but hey, I'm a nice guy. I'll provide it locally as well. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1487260#post1487260



Now that that's done, I'll just say that it's good to know that's how the government system is designed as I can apply it appropriately to my story and continuing game as the Koinon Hellenon.

On a separate note, I just now finished watching "This Film Is Not Yet Rated", which is all about the secretive nature of the MPAA (film ratings board in America) and all this conspiracy type stuff, which isn't to say it's not real, just the overall vibe. And reading that Psycho V post just gave me this weird feeling about the secret EB stuff backstage. Erie. :creep:

Anyhoo.... I love you guys!... and erm, uh... Hellenes rock!.....

:burnout:

[hellenes]

They were never united under Alexander ^^
In 333, the Spartan king engage a fight against Alexander's regent.
And then, Sparta fought against a huge Makedon army + Greeks league, and was barely defeated.

And after all, Alexander was a Makedonian, not a Greek ( in the mind of this guys at this time...)

And during the Persian invasion, nearly half of the cities were on Xerxes side...

The greatest Greek unity achieved was, I think, the Chremonidan League, with Sparta, Athens and Rhodos in the same team...but such a power was too dangerous for the other Hellens, so they sided with Antigonos against them...

I dont want to get in this whole dreadful debate I would just suggest you to read some Isocrates and less Demosphenes....

[PSYCHO V]

I asked this question myself and the answer was quite simple and rather understandable. The gov1 for KH is the spartan agoge because of the way our gov system works. gov1 allows for the highest factional MIC level, which, given the militaristic history of the spartans, seemed most appropriate for them. In fact, the spartans in the koine are less influential than the other cities...

Foot


But the fact remains that the Spartans shouldn't really wield any influence in EB's time frame, they were a provincial back water. They played little / no part other than a handful of battles in a futile attempt to defend themselves....before being relegated to a Roman fun / theme park.

It's unfortunate that EB's Hellenophiles couldn't resist including 'Spartan' material that harked back to the 'glory days' hundreds of years prior. It’s just ahistorical bias. eg. The glorified Spatan mercenary that is one of the mod's most richly decorated and elite units. Cool yes... clever / accurate..no.

my2bob

[Thaatu]

It's unfortunate that EB's Hellenophiles couldn't resist including 'Spartan' material that harked back to the 'glory days' hundreds of years prior. It’s just ahistorical bias. eg. The glorified Spatan mercenary that is one of the mod's most richly decorated and elite units. Cool yes... clever / accurate..no.
To my understanding, that glorified Spartan mercenary unit is a model/texture only and is not included in the actual game, other than in a minimod. I'm not sure why anyone would complain about that. Besides, Sparta has the same premise as Epirus. If they had avoided complete downfall, who knows what might have happened. Maybe they would've risen again.

[Laman]

One thing that might lessen the confusion (or possibly cause some) would be to have instead of I and II have Ia and Ib for the KH. Of course then people might just probably ask, where is II, I have I (a & b), III and IV but no II?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The team members who specialize on the Greeks felt that as a unit who now primarily works as mercenaries, from Syracuase to southern Italy to Crete to Egypt, we felt the way the Spartans are depicted is accurate. I'm here telling everyone that we in no way are trying to recreate classical spartans with the unit. They are hellenistic spartans (they exist in 272 in Sparta and fighting on Crete, and specifically perform well in the siege of Sparta, the year our mod starts) who spend most of their time as mercenaries (they are doing it in 272 alongside Areus on Crete) or fighting for Sparta. They can only be created in one province, by one faction, at their highest MIC level, and they cost a lot to field, and they have 100 men less than even the simplest pike unit - in other words they are not some sort of crazy elite unit. I just used one unit of decent pike (pezhetairoi - nothing special) on flat terrain with no bonuses or upgrades and shredded a unit of them (I lost 13 men, they lost all). And the pez were 50% cheaper to recruit. Actually, I just tried this out and defeated them with a single unit of levy phalanx (the crappiest pike unit in the game) on a flat battlefield (just barely won it though). They stink actually. :laugh4:

I doubt anyone who has ever played outside of Makedonian or Epeirote factions have ever fought against the unit on a battlefield even - that's how rare they are in the game usually. Again, the Greek historians and unit people on the team were and are in support of the unit without exception. They have a little sculpting on their cuirass and a different colored (but no pattern) trim on their cloak, but what else is so special about them? Their pilos helmet is incredibly simple. Their greaves are simple. They have pteryges and a shield with a lambda. Big deal. The regular hoplites are just about as nice. That's them on my sig banner, but without the design on their cuirass.

[Geoffrey S]

Personally I'd have preferred to see the Greek Cities represented as strong rebels, considering their fractured nature and the fact that there is no really decent way of realistically representing the precarious coalition.

[keravnos]

But then you wouldn't have been able to play them, would you?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's difficult, but within five years of the mod's start we have very clear evidence of the signing an alliance with each other and with the direct help of the Ptolemaic kingdom - trying to unite to drive out the Macedonians and liberate Greece from their presence for the last fifty years. Who knows if any of these smaller factions could have held together over a long period of success though - it doesn't seem likely from our start date. Pontos is just barely being "born" (an assassin's knife could have ended that faction), and the pahlava are nomads in 272 mostly, and baktria is a semiautonomous (or for the most part autonomous) satrapy in 272. Epeiros won't last a few more decades, and takes its biggest blow before the starting year is out. There are some arguments that Armenia should just be a satrapy of the seleukids also. Why not just reduce it to one roman faction, one carthie faction, the seleukid empire, the ptolemaic kingdom, a small mak kingdom (honestly in early 272 the maks didn't look like they'd be the ones coming out on top in Greece either), and whatever in the way of celts people would want. Why include the too fractured sarmatians, the too quarrelsome greeks, the too young pontics, the unindependent armenians or baktrians, the too distant sakae, an unimportant british isles tribe, the small nomad bunch of pahlava, a second celtic tribe in gaul, an arabian tribe no one needs?

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

The man makes quite a point...

BTW, how did you guys pick an exact start date? Was the current one particularly eventful, or the start of something?

[PSYCHO V]

The Greek historians and unit people on the team were and are in support of the unit without exception.

:shrug:
You know that’s not true. There were several of us not happy with the inclusion of this unit / as depicted (albeit altered to tone down the ornateness for the realists).



Why not just reduce it to one roman faction, one carthie faction, the seleukid empire, the ptolemaic kingdom, a small mak kingdom…

Why include the too fractured sarmatians, .. the too young pontics, the unindependent armenians or baktrians, the too distant sakae, an unimportant british isles tribe, the small nomad bunch of pahlava, a second celtic tribe in gaul, an arabian tribe no one needs?

From the sublime to the ridiculous. This only belies positional bias.



The man makes quite a point...

~:) Yup, according to some, when it comes to the ancient world, the Hellenes are all and everything. Without them depicted in glory, everything else is meaningless.




my2bob
:ahh:

[Geoffrey S]

It's difficult, but within five years of the mod's start we have very clear evidence of the signing an alliance with each other and with the direct help of the Ptolemaic kingdom - trying to unite to drive out the Macedonians and liberate Greece from their presence for the last fifty years. Who knows if any of these smaller factions could have held together over a long period of success though - it doesn't seem likely from our start date. Pontos is just barely being "born" (an assassin's knife could have ended that faction), and the pahlava are nomads in 272 mostly, and baktria is a semiautonomous (or for the most part autonomous) satrapy in 272. Epeiros won't last a few more decades, and takes its biggest blow before the starting year is out. There are some arguments that Armenia should just be a satrapy of the seleukids also. Why not just reduce it to one roman faction, one carthie faction, the seleukid empire, the ptolemaic kingdom, a small mak kingdom (honestly in early 272 the maks didn't look like they'd be the ones coming out on top in Greece either), and whatever in the way of celts people would want. Why include the too fractured sarmatians, the too quarrelsome greeks, the too young pontics, the unindependent armenians or baktrians, the too distant sakae, an unimportant british isles tribe, the small nomad bunch of pahlava, a second celtic tribe in gaul, an arabian tribe no one needs?
That's one way of putting it. The other factions yoyu mentioned either were at the time unified powers in their regions, or became such; the Koinon, as depicted, were neither.

But then you wouldn't have been able to play them, would you?
This is not a reason to include them.

[oudysseos]

TA, I understand that you/ye might be exasperated by now to have always to be explaining your choices and decisions. Still, I have some very serious concerns about the KH that some other people seem to share. EB is a realism mod, and while I would never expect a perfectly accurate model of the world in 272 bc, and would never criticize you for not achieving perfect accuracy, it is still legitimate to ask if the KH is the best, most accurate depiction of the Greeks within the limits of what the RTW game can be modded to do. I am sorry, but I do not necessarily think that that is the case.
I know that you were trying to point out that many of the other factions in EB are in the same boat as the KH, but I think that there is a difference between Baktria and Haydasan on the one hand and EB's KH on the other. That difference is best expressed as applying a thought-experiment: can you reasonably imagine, without too much stretching of historical possibilities, such a faction achieving the goals set out for them under the 'victory' conditions? Could history really have happened that way? I can answer that question positively for Baktria, but not for the Koinon Hellenon. I just can't bring myself to believe that Sparta, Athens and Rhodes, given the conditons in EB, could ever have held together for long, much less pursued an aggressive foreign policy.

I do not expect, and am not asking, you to change anything at this point. Personally, I think that the Greeks should be represented in the game by a non-playable emerging faction of the Achaean League that pops out ca. 252 BC or so (I may have the exact date wrong), or by an Aitolian league faction with only Thermon as their starting point. Maybe an eventual mini-mod? In the meantime, I just don't play the Greeks.

[RabbitDynamite]

Yup, according to some, when it comes to the ancient world, the Hellenes are all and everything. Without them depicted in glory, everything else is meaningless.


Don't you think you're embellishing the opposition's viewpoint just a teensy-weensy bit? I'd hardly call the Hellenic starting position, with 3 cities, one of which is too far from the mainland to do anything other than fill the coffers, and under serious pressure from the Maks, with piss-poor cavalry and infantry that will get it's ass kicked against phalanxes with without some clever leadership is "glorious". You seem to have the specific goal of insisting that the EB portrayal of the Greeks is utterly idiotic and anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest in a hellenphille moron. At this point, both of us are using tasty, tasty strawmen, so to make things a little clearer - how would you have the Greek factions portrayed?

[Foot]

I have to admit that I'm disappointed in Psycho. I always held the utmost respect for him whilst he worked on the mod (though we never really crossed paths), but this ad hominen/strawman attack on important members of the EB team and EB in general is uncalled for and upsetting. He paints a picture of the EB team that is skewed to some awful angle, and as a worker on the inside I cannot conceive how he could have got that impression.

If we want to talk about a thought experiment, lets go: Hayasdan could certainly not fulfill its goals to reform the Persian Empire in its own image and extend it west to the shores of Anatolia, it was only the charismatic and intelligent form of Tigran II the Great and the combined events of the Seleucids falling, Parthia seiged in the east and the Romans knocking at the door that allowed Tigran to even escape from the Caucasus range. Lets get rid of them, shall we?

If RTW could allow us to reasonably show the strife inside a faction and the possiblity of breaking up, then we would certainly add it in to represent KH more firmly, but as far as we know we cannot (which is a shame).

Foot

[Juvenal]

First of all, let me congratulate the EB team on reducing the Spartan Hoplites to a believable unit (remember Vanilla's 2 hitpoint monsters in evening gowns?).

Despite TA's protestations, Spartan Hoplites are not "crap". One Spartan may not be able to reliably flank one Pezhetairoi, but I would bet money on winning 2 against 2, or even 2 against 4 (against the AI). Spartiates are also strong on walls.

On reflection I think it was wrong to give KH generals Spartiate bodyguards, they should instead be a buffed-up traditional hoplite.

If the KH ever became a grand alliance uniting all the Greeks, I think it would have become progressively less Spartan (after all, no one was going to volunteer to become a Helot).

[Foot]

On reflection I think it was wrong to give KH generals Spartiate bodyguards, they should instead be a buffed-up traditional hoplite.

If the KH ever became a grand alliance uniting all the Greeks, I think it would have become progressively less Spartan (after all, no one was going to volunteer to become a Helot).

I wouldn't worry about that, the spartan bodyguard is only temporary. The proper bodyguard will be in the next build.

Foot

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I remember when we were discussing the Spartans, the only complaints were that the armour was too ornate. I don't remember a single member suggesting they shouldn't be in.

As to the historicity of KH, we have to have Athens and Sparta as cities and we can't reasonably leave the Greeks out entirely. This is probably the only era in which the Greeks could be united at all, what with the larger City States having finally absorbed some of the smaller.

To give you some perspective, 30 cities were represented at Platea and two turned up late (so they claimed), that leaves roughly 1,000 that either sided with the Persians or sat the whole thing out.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Simply put, you were not one of the Hellenic historians, mate. First class, top of the line Celtic historian and artist, yes. I will say it again that not a one of the Hellenic historians objected, nor do they now - these accusations are simply not correct. Repeatedly it was shown that they existed, and were imporant *in 272* no less, and that this is a very appropriate way to depict them, as mercs who still accompanied the Spartan king.

Oudysseos, there are no emerging factions in RTW 1.5. If there was no KH faction at all, the region would hardly be accurate; the Maks would win over southern Greece every time. The Achaean League would not even hold a city on our map, and the Aitolian League would only hold Thermon and was doing nothing to stop the Maks from moving into southern Greece at this time. They would be a faction with one province, dead in the water, surrounded on all sides by Maks and Epeiros and it would make no sense to have other greek provinces across the Mediterranean rebel to the Aitolian League if someone failed to hold on to them (but it does work perfectly as the KH). The Aitolian League was also not expansionistic outside of a ring of a few pixels (on the map) around their borders, so having an empire as the Aitolian League, stretching across Greece and anywhere else would be much less accurate. Requiring that they definitely would have stayed together historically to be a faction is just too much - Baktria fractured over and over but we can't depict that in RTW 1.5. Makedonia did it right before our game started - Pyrrhos technically is king of Makedonia in 272. Could he have held together an empire across Greece himself even? I would say certainly not. Would one of the Celtic factions have been able to hold all of the British Isles very long? Doubtful. What about one of the Gallic ones? For a hundred years, expanding out in different directions? No way. Could Carthage have held together an empire much larger than the one they did historically? I doubt that too. The Seleukids lost time and time again sections of their empire to rebellions, and Pontos could have done no better. None of them would. We'd love to have 50 factions with a system that could make rebellions create new emerging factions. We'd LOVE it! Believe me. But it can't happen in our game. So we have factions that work differently than others - Baktria being a big one, Parthia will be very different in the next build, Pontos has to rely on mercs and local recruitment more than anyone else as is correct, the KH and Sarmatians are groups of poleis and tribes that certainly might not have held together as depicted. It really does make it more interesting than having a few superpowers to play with alone. Just roleplay more with the KH. I've had campaigns with them where I got a Cretan family member right after taking Crete - I kept my Spartans in the Peloponnese, except when they were on campaign, but they always returned, and had a Corinthian in Corinth with my Athenians in Athens. They can be played ahistorically, without much concern for any of that, or they can be played in a way that is very reasonable, like I explained. Arguing to remove the faction or that folks would have had their druthers with the faction differently will not change the faction's makeup when we have so much information about the Chremonidean war at hand.

The Spartans as bodyguards are only a temporary solution and we have said that over and over, as Foot notes.

Phil, yeah, Psycho did object to them being in the game at all, repeatedly, despite the facts posted on the Spartans at this time. I remember. He was not an Hellenic historian. That's what it came down to.

[spirit_of_rob]

The Spartans as bodyguards are only a temporary solution and we have said that over and over, as Foot notes.


And i did a damn good job on the proper ones even though i say so myself :laugh4:

[Redmeth]

I have to say I have only respect for all of you, your knowledge is truly vast and to translate into a game is a great accomplishment, but this a game nonetheless.
A game means freedom, so you give each faction their bread, butter and knives meaning the provinces, generals and the unit roster and all the great faction specific traits and after that everyone can do as they please, the player will rule over an utopic past, conquering and ruling without all the dirty things that make reality so not like a game all the strife and rebellions and petty quarrels. Playing my campaign with the Sarmatians and trying to meet their goals makes it pretty clear that a nomadic tribe couldn't be able to hold almost all the east but still if their leader was sitting behind a computer with a mouse in hand, who knows? Imagine a Roman Empire without the mad emperors and the military disasters and the economic decline maybe they would have held their empire until this very day...
History is in the books and games are mostly fantasy but EB is as historical as a game gets. So don't forget to imagine and have fun.
And the AI of course screws most of this up but until they will rise like in Terminator, that's all we have.
This sounds kinda cheesy though... My rant i mean.

[mAIOR]

I'm actualy quite fond of the Greeks in EB I just love to play with them. As Teleklos said, it's impossible to make the factions behave like they did historicaly or have much diference in behavior for that matter. Think of this as an alternate timeline where Greeks didn't stab each others on the back all the time :) . Also, my only complaint would be the Spartan hoplites as bodyguards but if it's already taken care of it's fine by me :) I'm eager to see EB2 cause then, Spartan hoplites can be really, really limited as the recruitment sistem allows so.
Oh, I really love the stats of the Spartans as they are now. Don't you dare change them :p I always tought that they were still very talented troops seing as their training didn't change.

Cheers...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

And i did a damn good job on the proper ones even though i say so myself :laugh4:
Indeed - and I can't wait to see them, and your other new ones, in the build as soon as possible! We do have some awesome model and texture artists, guys, but we are not so adept at unit implementation. It is something we have trouble with quite honestly, especially while our best man is on a work trip abroad for a few months (but getting home very soon). Other folks who could do it on the team but choose to not be involved don't get much consideration in my account.

[Pelopidas]

The only "Greek" ( by " Greek " I mean of southern Hellas...) author I read who really considered Makedonian as Greeks was...Plutarch.
Two hundred years after their assimilation into the Roman world, when there was the dream of a united Greece from the dawn of time, and when scholars said that Herodot was a biaised pro-barbarian.

Then, the Chremonidan league as it is in EB seems really a good choice.

What is certain is, if they were able to utterly crush Macedonia, they wouldn't have created an empire, but could have been the catalysor of " free polis " in the Greek world, just as they are with the rebellion of hellenistic towns in Eb.

If it bother you, play it roleplay, with Spartan at Lacedemon, only living it to fight, and all this, and don't invade your neighbours...until they get a rebellious hellenic town, and install only client state in the non-hellenic conquests.

For Sparta being a low-power at this time, it could be discussed... they were alone when they challenged Antipatros, Alexander's regent, in 333.
They were alone, with only a small financial help from Egypt, when they fought the Aetolian league + the Achean League + Macedonia, under the reign of king Kleomenos III at the end of the IIIrd century...and in both cause where only defeated after a difficult struggle, by ennemies far more numerous than them.
And about their league with Athen against Antigonos, Athens was besieged, Lacedemone wasn't bothered.

So, of course, Sparta was far away from a power like Egypt, and wasn't even near Macedonia, but as a regional power, Sparta, Athens, and most of all, Rhodos, were all still of great influence.

Even in 195/194, the Achean league needed the help of a few Roman legions to crush Sparta...

[antiochus epiphanes]

i personally thought EB focused alot on the steppes and celts more then anything else, thank god for that cause the mod would suck without sarmatians,saka,hayasdan, and pahlava.









yeah i said it, celts and greeks can go to hell:clown: :laugh4: jk

[Imperator]

So we can agree on a few things:

1) In EB, Type I and Type II are basically both Type I. One is "Spartan-y" and one is more general, democratic Greek-ey. So EB isn't depicting the KH as a Spartan empire, but you can't think of its MIC like you would any other faction. Just like the Saka or Saraumatae, the KH are a federation, not unified, ergo their MIC is different. Let's not forget to answer the original question.

2) I think Psycho is overreacting. The Spartans were undoubtably a power at the time, enough of one to challange the Achaean's, Macedonians, and even the Romans (I just read it in Polybius). They were used as medium-high end mercenaries, but were scarce. It has been shown by team members that they are NOT an uber-powerful or excessively nice unit.

phew! Hopefully that answers the original question of the thread, and I hope the debate can settle.

[Urnamma]

Psycho, this is ridiculous.

EB has given more attention to the Celts than any other single ethnic group.

Virtually every single celtic subgroup is represented or planned to be represented, and fully half the units to go into the next version are celtic of one form or another, or Rhaetian, or something else.

You need to calm down and stop being a troll. I remember many a discussion in which you wanded celts to get +3 experience from the top temples, among other things.

Look in the mirror before you accuse anyone here of bias. Spartans were certainly still around in 270 B.C.

Makedonians are indeed... Makedonian. If we want to ethnically typify them, then Graeco-Thracian/Illyrian would probably be the best typology.

As someone has noticed, EB -is- a little biased toward non-greco-roman factions. I for one am proud of that fact, because we try to give them equal representation.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Some time ago I also was against KH as faction but after thinking I came to a conclusion it is the good choice. the faction there is needed and, while Achaeans may be better choice, they are just to small at the starting time, they cant make a faction.

The big problem with greece at this time was overall decline of martial culture, normal to pepole who become more "civilised" that is when they have nothing to gain in war and they may loose a lot.

BDW this may be a good place to say that I thought about making mini mod for EB concentrated on Greece area (in the same timeframe as EB). The problem is that EB member (me including) have so may other things to do... The biggest first project would be a map. If somebody will be interrested in helping I may start thread in Unoficial modding projects with proposed map outline and factions.

[RabbitDynamite]

To get away from all the negative vibes going on here - is anyone licking their lips at all this talk of units in the next build? Seeing as the EB team usually seem to keep their cards close to their chest and all.

EDIT: and to touch on something already bought up here - are the Hetairoi as the bodyguard of the diadochi factions temporary like the Spartan KH bodyguard?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We don't have a lot of skinners and modellers working right now, but the ones who are are doing a terrific job. We have promises that a couple of big names are going to be active again really soon, but I simply don't know. From my point of view I'm just thankful for the guys who stick with us and keep churning new units out. There's not much more you can do in a volunteer mod. Now that you mention it though, we should show you guys some new units before much longer.

[keravnos]

I don't think that EB is Greekophile, or Celtophile or Pahlaviphile or Hayasdanphile or Qarthadastimphile or whatever else.

KH was something quite unique, and as such deserves to be modded.

It is all those things combined, and also has the best Romani of all mods.

However, please understand our position. Not everything can be modded in. CA has done some design choices, which limit our own way around them. But before someone goes on a anti-CA sprint, bear the No.1 thing in mind. It is THEIR game we are modding, THEIR own game, which is MUCH MORE MODDABLE than it could have been (talking about RTW here). This is a volunteer effort to get as much possible out of RTW as possible. Not a business venture to bankrupt CA. CA has been kind enough with us, and DESERVE RESPECT. I will be buying any "total war" game they ever release, if only for the enjoyment a mod of their game has given this Baktrio-phile.

Psycho is entitled to his own opinion, of course. Other members of the mod have answered him far better than I could. I can tell you, this, though. This is a very exciting period for the Celts. VERY exciting!

[Krusader]

Hmm....think our fans could need some "easter eggs" to find...

[The_Mark]

Find Waldo, perhaps?

[adishee]

BDW this may be a good place to say that I thought about making mini mod for EB concentrated on Greece area (in the same timeframe as EB). The problem is that EB member (me including) have so may other things to do... The biggest first project would be a map. If somebody will be interrested in helping I may start thread in Unoficial modding projects with proposed map outline and factions.

This would be so great under EB direction, especially since Hegemonia is never going to come out.

[snevets]

This would be so great under EB direction, especially since Hegemonia is never going to come out.

Dude not cool.

[Foot]

We don't have a lot of skinners and modellers working right now, but the ones who are are doing a terrific job. We have promises that a couple of big names are going to be active again really soon, but I simply don't know. From my point of view I'm just thankful for the guys who stick with us and keep churning new units out. There's not much more you can do in a volunteer mod. Now that you mention it though, we should show you guys some new units before much longer.

Its my opinion that those who are still churning out units are as big as those who are currently on a break. Stefan and Rob both deserve the respect of more famous modellers, their latest work has been incredible. I can't wait for our next release!

Foot

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Oh, I totally agree. The ones who are active now are superb, and stefan particulary has gone from not skinning at all to some incredible units very quickly (you other guys have been doing it a bit longer :grin:). But everyone knows who Aymar and Spartan Warrior are too, and you can't argue with what they've done so far. It's an embarassment of riches if we could just get all gears moving at the same time. :laugh4: I still like to poke and prod the guys who aren't moving right now with pointy sticks as often as possible too though. That's sort of my "thang".

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Well one thing is clear after reading someone's complain here...he knows how to choose his user name...:clown: ~:joker: :elephant:

[PSYCHO V]

Well one thing is clear after reading someone's complain here...he knows how to choose his user name...:clown: ~:joker: :elephant:

Lol ...wow that’s original. Haven’t heard that one in the past 8 years in this community. ~:rolleyes: ~:)



I have to admit that I'm disappointed in Psycho. This ad hominen/strawman attack on important members of the EB team is uncalled for and upsetting. .

I have to admit I’m more than disappointed in you mate. To date, I have not singled out any individual by name for personal attack, merely positions undertaken. I suggest you revisit the meaning of ad hominen/strawman and take another look at your own post.

If you guys want to drag all this out into the public, so be it.



He paints a picture of the EB team that is skewed to some awful angle, and as a worker on the inside I cannot conceive how he could have got that impression.

As a former “worker on the inside” I suggest you’ll need to stick around and little longer and find yourself disagreeing with someone. And as far ‘painting’ anything, the actions of the team speak for themselves to those objective enough.



..stop being a troll..

:tomato2: Expected ~:)



Psycho is entitled to his own opinion..

Thanks. I only wish others shared your position. Any questioning of decisions that happen to be made by certain individuals / about Hellenes and your actions are paramount to heresy. The individual derided / posts deleted … point in case in this very thread.



Psycho, this is ridiculous...

Yes it is Matt



The Greek historians and unit people on the team were and are in support of the unit without exception.

….Simply put, you were not one of the Hellenic historians, mate… these accusations are simply not correct.

So what you are saying is that because I didn’t agree with you I was no longer entitled to be regarded as one of the “unit people on the team”?



First class, top of the line Celtic historian and artist, yes.

Nominal expediency. Obviously not “first class” enough to be constantly undermined / ignored on issues pertaining to all things Celtic.



I remember when we were discussing the Spartans, the only complaints were that the armour was too ornate. I don't remember a single member suggesting they shouldn't be in..


Phil, yeah, Psycho did object to them being in the game at all, repeatedly, despite the facts posted on the Spartans at this time..

Yup, but tell the full story there buddy. Years ago, when we thought we were more restricted in unit numbers than what we turned out to be, I argued that the spaced could be better served with other units.

Recently the debate was on the depiction… which started off with gold coloured helmet, greaves and engraved Cuirass. Concessions were made but the engraved cuirass stayed due it looking cool. And yes facts were posted … ie ‘a’ similar cuirass has been discovered but according to most commentary, it was likely used by a king or someone of extreme wealth and probably not by any Spartan.



..I remember. He was not an Hellenic historian. That's what it came down to.


First of all, let me congratulate the EB team on reducing the Spartan Hoplites to a believable unit..

Yes it was a hard fought battle instigated by the un-initiated Non-“ Hellenic historians”.



... the mod would suck without sarmatians,saka,hayasdan, and pahlava..

Yup, absolutely.



I don't think that EB is Greekophile, or Celtophile or Pahlaviphile or Hayasdanphile or Qarthadastimphile or whatever else. .

The game / mod no ..thanks in part to the bravery of objective dissenters… a tribute to many in the EB team.



EB has given more attention to the Celts than any other single ethnic group..

I’d dispute that but what has it got to do with anything here?

Did I claim that the Celts haven’t had enough attention! NO! Your just giving voice to your pre-conceived bias / opinions of my person and motivations. You (amongst others) have done so for years now. Every time I would make a dissenting comment I’d receive these ridiculous personal accusations that had nothing to do with the debate. Get over it.


Look in the mirror before you accuse anyone here of bias.

Indeed ~:)



I remember many a discussion in which you wanded (sic) celts to get +3 experience from the top temples, among other things.

Matt, please don’t you start misrepresenting past events too. I drew those temple charts up in early 2005, long before any other faction had anything similar in place. There was no point of reference.
Obviously when things progressed a change was needed and I as Faction Co-ordinator for the Celts needed to know the rationale behind those changes. I thought we came to an amicable conclusion. Are you now stating otherwise?



…and fully half the units to go into the next version are celtic of one form or another, or Rhaetian, or something else….

Interesting. Not one unit that I was ever made aware of and not one piece of the work I had been waiting for over 12 months to be implemented. Strange that ..considering I was supposedly a “top of the line Celtic historian and artist” and Celtic faction Co-ordinator to boot.

Things that make you go doh…. :shrug:


my2bob
(I hate to have to state this but if this is deleted, I'll just have to post it again)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

What does all of this prove ? You want to damn the whole mod because a unit (that clearly exists in 272, for a faction you did not advise) is in the game when you don't think it should be? Well, if that's it, then what's the big deal?

[PSYCHO V]

You want to damn the whole mod because a unit?

Have a flair for over dramatising don't we.
Nope, not at all. Just stating an opinion that happens to be regarded 'heretical' by some.



What does all of this prove ??

Well for one thing, it elucidates some of the reasons we have parted company.

my2bob

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, not everyone can agree on everything on the team. That's why there are lots of polls on issues that affect everyone (like where that freed up culture group went) but not so much on issues within a single faction where the FC's and historians for the faction have more say. It's unfortunate a few people didn't like the Spartans' inclusion, but the end results were pretty satisfying to the team as a whole and to the Greek FC's and historians in particular.

[Thaatu]

Psycho V, if the experts and their numbers are against you then what makes you think you are absolutely right? Have you considered the fact that you just might be wrong in your theory? Of course absolute facts are difficult and/or impossible to establish conserning history, so compromises must be made.

[Sohwen]

How come Athenai can't make triremes? I know that they had them. Or did they somehow lose that capability by 272?

Actually I've never liked the Spartans... Yes, they were great warriors, but what else? What did they leave behind, and what did they achieve in the long run? All their martial prowess didn't help them in the end.

[Kull]

I think it's worth noting that behind-the-scenes spirited debates are more the rule than the exception on the EB Team. Usually it stays pretty civil, but from time to time everybody says things I'm sure they regret in hindsight. But that's not typical. The important thing for fans to know is that we have many people who care passionately about the peoples and cultures of this era, and the rigorous internal debate results in a product that the team as a whole is quite proud of.

As to the subject of the "historicity" of the KH faction. It's been kind of beaten to death, but we are hampered by the hardcoding of RTW, and there will always be engine-forced compromises as a result. And when that occurs, you as the player have the ability to take the tools we've provided you and role-play something which IS historical....or at least is plausible in an alternate history sort of way.

In that vein, don't think of KH as a single unitary empire. For the most part you can meet the game winning goals by focusing on restoring freedom to all the Greek colonies of the Mediterranean. And if desired, you can even add your own built-in dynamic by roleplaying the Type 1 vs Type 2 as if it were a pair of competing Greek Leagues, perhaps even going so far as to use only certain unit Types with the armies of one as opposed to the other. So do your research and dig up the actual mother city-colony relationships and apportion the freeing of them to the "correct" internal league.

Truly, the possibilities are only as limited as your imagination. :2thumbsup:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

And it's only going to get so much better in our next release too I might add Kull. Especially for players who like to use conquered provinces as allies. It's going to get a lot more realistic. :grin:

[Swebozbozboz]

And it's only going to get so much better in our next release too I might add Kull. Especially for players who like to use conquered provinces as allies. It's going to get a lot more realistic. :grin:


Oh, oh, oh, OH! Quit teasing us TA! You're killin' me! :yes:

[Ower]

And it's only going to get so much better in our next release too I might add Kull. Especially for players who like to use conquered provinces as allies. It's going to get a lot more realistic. :grin:

That means, I'm going to have a long KH campain in the next build :2thumbsup:

[Sohwen]

No teasing! My imagination's already run wild with that tidbit...Sounds fun...:couch:

[PSYCHO V]

Psycho V, if the experts and their numbers are against you then what makes you think you are absolutely right? Have you considered the fact that you just might be wrong in your theory? Of course absolute facts are difficult and/or impossible to establish conserning history, so compromises must be made.

Firstly, the “experts” and “numbers” are not always in agreement. Power brokers in EB have had a long history of deferring to either, depending on what outcome they wished. If the ‘numbers’, the democratic process rains supreme ..if the ‘experts’, the masses don’t really know what they are talking about anyway so..etc. Only when there is little contention or dissenters are silenced (posts literally deleted in some cases), do the aforementioned enjoy the support of both.

Secondly, I never assume I’m “absolutely right”.. I’ve been wrong far too many times that it’s embarassing. And yes I do consider facts and haven’t just sat down one day and thought … “Geez I think I believe history was like this today”.

Facts are facts … but regardless of the scientific discipline there is always differing opinion on the interpretation of those facts. Archaeology, History and Anthropology suffer acutely from this due to the very nature of the disciplines’ interpretative analysis / process. This is even more the case when one deals with ancient history and the many and varied holes in the material record and thus our knowledge / understanding. Most of our understanding of ancient history is guess work.. the applied science of the “most likely” outcome / situation.

This “most likely” outcome is at the heart of the debate here and the cause of much angst in EB. For example; the Spartan unit. The so-called “experts” gave evidence of what appeared to be an ornately engraved cuirass. They then extrapolated that data to come up with a Spartan unit that not only had an engraved cuirass that appeared to be gold, but engraved helmet and greaves of gold as well. Now the argument was that it was ‘possible’, given the equipment is known to have existed or (in the case of the helmet and greaves) 'possibly' existed ..and they were going to be a mercenary unit and thus not likely to be too impoverished but it didn’t sit right with many in EB.

Was it “most likely” that a unit of Spartans looked like the depiction presented us? I and many others argued no… despite being derided by the ‘experts’.
It is highly unlikely that any mercenary could have ever afforded the attire that many kings themselves prided themselves on. Add to this the underlying socio-economic conditions these mercenaries hailed from in Sparta and the decline of their society, average remuneration of mercenaries in the period, etc etc.

It was argued that one can’t just take one piece of material evidence and then extrapolate that to a larger demographic / population without supporting evidence. It would be the equivalent of claiming every combatant in Medieval Europe wore plate armour.
I made exactly the same argument about a glorified unit of Celts called the Bodubatae (Raven Helms). And before my detractors go crazy on this, yes..this was one of my own inventions / one of many quasi historical suggestions to CA whilst they were still developing RTW and planning on having generic fantasy / Conan styled units. I deliberately tried to appeal to their sense of 'coolness' to improve a very bad situation. Whilst the unit wasn't adopted, we were fortunate that many ideas were eg. Reworking of the barb units, implementation of Harii / ‘Night Raiders’ etc etc

..but I digress... The Bodubatae (Raven Helms).
Sure we had evidence of the elaborate helmet, but conventional analysis / common sense tells us that such an ornate piece of equipment would have “most likely” been the reserve of the rich and powerful. After much debate and ridicule the unit was thankfully scrapped and the helmet only ended up making an appearance on the Arverni lesser general. People wanted it because they thought it looked cool, but far from the “most likely” situation, it would have been a gross distortion of historical reality if not outright fantasy. I’ve also tried to have all the metal rims removed from Celtic units bar a few notable exceptions, limit the numbers of units wearing chain mail, simplify the elaborate plans for Gallic Oppida, etc etc. Similarly, I have consistently campaigned to tone down (contrary to the beliefs of many eg Urnamma previously) many other overly generous / glorified depictions in EB, my only success usually being branded a trouble maker.

Everyone claims that they wish EB to be the most historically accurate depiction of the ancient world but many will willingly overlook the “most likely” rule and support / solicit grandiose depictions if and when it suits their personal tastes / fancies. If it looks cool, an ‘expert’ wants it and it could possibly, under the most generous / extreme cases, have happened in some alternate universe, it’s in.

Thankfully, enough noise (and a few resignations if my memory serves me correctly) was made about the Spartan unit that it has been re-worked and toned down. I still think having whole Spartan units with engraved cruirass’ is bs imho… but that’s just my “trolling, ridiculous and disappointing” opinion I guess. :shrug:


My2bob
:book:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Why worry about the way the WIP version of the Spartans we had earlier - the first submission by the artist? They are what they are now and the team is happy with it - Hellenic FC's and historians as well as the team as a whole. We never released previous incarnations of this unit as a part of the mod. The system worked when they were too elaborate initially and we cleaned them up. They have an engraved cuirass now still though - is that the extent of why this was brought up or is there more?

As for what they really looked like - nobody knows. It probably wasn't our first WIP, it probably isn't the one we have now, it probably isn't the way Caius depicts his, it probably isn't the way any of us show them. We just don't know. I'll stand behind our depiction as being quite reasonable though, as much as any other for this time period, when all the information about them at this time is marshalled together (and I do mean information about them within half a century on either side of our mod's starting date). Ancient Sparta is my field of study, even though I'm no military historian. If being a Philhellene means I'm labelled as being too close to the material or too sympathetic and biased, then I don't know what to do about it personally. Can't win for losing.

[Thaatu]

I apologise for not knowing the facts, but while you say the majority was against the Spartan unit and a few pseudo-experts overruled you, the rest of the team (TA, Keravnos, Urnamma, Foot, Kull) says that at least the majority of the experts were for the unit. No-one at the moment has come out to support your story. I'm not saying you're lying, but it seems you're letting your emotions get the best of you. Using phrases like "power brokers" or "dissenters are silenced" only serve to stamp you as a conspiracy theorist.

Second, I'm sure it took a lot of time and research to reach your original conclusions about the Spartan unit, but the problem in scientific community is not about coming up with a theory overnight. It is about building a theory over the span of many years and not letting go of it once it is proven false. This of course does not literally reflect on this situation, for these things are hard to prove or falsify, but it might give people something to think.

Lastly, making a mod is a team effort, and as in every other team effort, everyone has to make compromises or at least be willing to. But again, I know nothing about nothing so I guess I can't say very much. I just hope it works out in the end.

[Sheep]

Wow, it's just like when mom used to yell at dad at the dinner table...

*uncomfortable silence*

[HFox]

You're all feckin worng....

...we all know they are naked apart from a titanium cod piece, have five hit points and use the pictish voice mod.....

:)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Don't ruin it for everyone HFox. We've got to save something special for EB2 after all. :grin:

[Kull]

Wow, it's just like when mom used to yell at dad at the dinner table...

*uncomfortable silence*

"Sheep! Eat your peas!"

[Sheep]

*shovels peas in his mouth and stares at table*

Memmmmmooooooorieeeesssss....

[PSYCHO V]

*shovels peas in his mouth and stares at table*
Memmmmmooooooorieeeesssss....

:laugh4: Just wait until we get to the “You don’t love me anymore” part!
Get your front row tickets now!



… making a mod is a team effort, and as in every other team effort, everyone has to make compromises or at least be willing to.

Yes you would think so wouldn’t you but unfortunately, not everyone agrees with us.



I apologise for not knowing the facts, but …

but… ~:)



.. you're letting your emotions get the best of you. Using phrases like "power brokers" or "dissenters are silenced" only serve to stamp you as a conspiracy theorist.

Obviously my very long explanation / response wasn't to your liking...great! You should have told me your questions were rhetorical.
Now I have to endure the ignorant (self cofessed) musings of a fan boy. Oh the irony! :laugh4: Dam Thaatu, where were you two years ago when EB needed you? :shrug:



But again, I know nothing about nothing so I guess I can't say very much. I just hope it works out in the end.

~;p Well you obviously believe you know enough to be able to postulate / pass judgement on someone else's input / “conspiracy theories”, etc. As far as working out… Que Sera Sera



Why worry about the way the WIP version of the Spartans we had earlier - the first submission by the artist?

Merely drawing attention to the previous position of the said experts. The aforementioned / artist stated that the first submission was on strict instruction from the Hellenic FC's / historians. Now I know full well that artists can take a lot of ‘artist’ liberty in the discharging of those instructions, the point worth noting is that the impetus for change came from those supposedly un-qualified in the area.



We just don't know. I'll stand behind our depiction as being quite reasonable though, as much as any other for this time period, when all the information about them at this time is marshalled together (and I do mean information about them within half a century on either side of our mod's starting date)..

Yup, acknowledged. “Reasonable” …ok, under certain hypothetical conditions. The problem with “reasonable” is that it is highly relative / subjective and prone to under - over stating / exaggeration beyond the merits of what would be the “most likely” scenario.. depending on any given point of view. This is why I have argued the “most likely” line. For a product that pride’s itself on historical accuracy, “reasonable” doesn’t really gell with the core tenets / vision of the project nor offer the same degree of qualitative analysis that the “most likely” scenario does by it’s very nature.

One of the major things that has annoyed me during my tenure with EB (aside from the way you guys treat each other), is the expedient liberties taken in the name of “reasonable coolness”.



Ancient Sparta is my field of study, even though I'm no military historian. If being a Philhellene means I'm labelled as being too close to the material or too sympathetic and biased, then I don't know what to do about it personally. Can't win for losing.

Dave, to my knowledge, no one has questioned your knowledge in this area, which I might add is superb. Your knowledge and credentials are not under scrutiny here.
Having said that however, you can be the brightest / most qualified spark on the planet, yet will nonetheless be human and susceptible to error. It’s an issue many intellesia have problems acknowledging.

Nor should you feel the need to do the martyr routine. Again I’m somewhat bemused by the over dramatisation.
My comments have been directed at a group position / modes operandi. Not everyone in this said group share the same degree of culpability. Some are nominal participants, others relatively innocent.. blindly going along with whatever their mates dictate, usually ignorant of the details and responding in a knee jerk fashion completely out of proportion and context with the debate.

I am trying to avoid the personal mud slinging / so-called ad homenim (ok Thaatu may be a recent exception :saint:) that I am so readily accused of. Instead, using the group nomenclature to try and disarm people’s egos and foster a bit of self reflective analysis. So far, no so good.



They are what they are now and the team is happy with it - Hellenic FC's and historians as well as the team as a whole. .

Team as a whole …you mean those that are left. When left standing alone I guess one could at least take solace by bursting into song, “I did it my way”.



They have an engraved cuirass now still though - is that the extent of why this was brought up or is there more?

My grievances?… merely the tip of the ice berg my friend.


Burn the Heretic!!! :charge:

~:doh: ..sorry ~:)

My2bob
Dave

[O'ETAIPOS]

Well decline of Spartans in hellenistic period comes, in a big part from concentration of land in hands of the few. This means they were not able to field an Army, yet unit of Spartiates would obviously look impresive, as anyone with this status was at this point Very Rich.

[Watchman]

A local variation of the Thorakitai (or whateveritnowwasthesedays) Hoplitai phenomenom, in other words. Sorta like how the Massiloi Hoplitai are a local derivation of the standard Hoplitai ? Makes sense to me as a regional curio if nothing else.

[Cronos Impera]

This thread gives me headaches. Look Sir My2bob, your campaign is wasting energy (yours and everybody's)....valuable energy that could be used for more creative pursues.....like fishing, cooking, gaestate wrestling and origami.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Psycho, first of all I would like to thank you for whatever you did in the past for EB. I don't know you and I don't know what your contribution was but in any case, thanks because I love EB and I feel grateful towards all those that have contributed to make it what it is.

Now that said, I would like to know what is your motivation now??? Why do you come here and express your evident bitterness about the work of a team you DO NOT belong to anymore and a project you obviously don't care about any longer. If you did care, your posts would have a very different tone.

I mean come on man, get over it....if you don't like EB because there are Aliens with laser guns invading Rome, cool that is your right...go look for a mod that you like and play it or better yet make one of your own. But please stop attacking the EB team on a personal level just because you parted ways in the past and obviously you have not forgotten it.

Please understand that it DOESN'T matter anymore if you were right and they were wrong...you are not part of EB anymore and your post is not motivated by a desire to improve anything. If you think I'm wrong about this, please explain me what is the pourpose (a reasonable and positive one) of coming here and posting like this???? Is it about vengeance? well cool we get it...the EB team did something wrong (in your view)...so now what?, let's make them look bad? is that your altruistic approach on this?. Understand that by doing this you are not lessening them but yourself. Please don't degrade yourself.

Thanks.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

But compromises *were* made on the unit - that's the whole point. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case isn't looking at the unit that remains:
-ornamentation on the helmet was removed
-ornamentation on the greaves were removed
-decorations on the cape were removed
-the blue (expensive) and yellow dyes on a little bit of cloth at the shoulders were removed
-all the decoration on the sheath was taken off
-the cuirass engraving itself was toned down
-the wrist guards were removed
-the pteryges were made more in line with other greek units
-the tunic border was simplified from two levels with patterns to one smaller level with simpler pattern

Why so much anger against this unit as it remains and the process that got it this way? It was maybe the most arguing over a unit we've ever had, but anyone can see how much we simplified it from the initial submission, and I'm very happy with the results of all that arguing - it was definitely too much for me also when it first was released and I said so, but I think this is just right (except the Lambda still needs simplifying, but we all agree on that - just haven't gotten around to doing it).

We definitely have at least one other person who doesn't like the unit still though, and I very much respect him saying so, but he still is on the team, working on other things. It's one rarely seen unit after all. But overall I would call .960 (which is the number of members who are pleased or think it's ok as the unit is now) a pretty good batting average. If you call that "blindly following" then so be it - it's a easy way to rationalize not agreeing with a vote.

I don't know what else to do but keep working, and keep pushing everyone else to keep working. That's what we're doing, and I will definitely say that there is no slacking of pace or problem here. Any member can voice their opinion of how things are going also. We do miss your working on celtic units, very much, but other people have to step in and do the best they can now and they are. That's about it.

[Thaatu]

Hmm... I'm not sure why you're calling me a fanboy...


but… ~:)
It's not really fair to take, even a single word, out of context.

...but while you say the majority was against the Spartan unit and a few pseudo-experts overruled you, the rest of the team (TA, Keravnos, Urnamma, Foot, Kull) says that at least the majority of the experts were for the unit. No-one at the moment has come out to support your story. I'm not saying you're lying, but it seems you're letting your emotions get the best of you.
All this can be found from this thread. I was only stating the obvious and was trying to make you understand why an outsider (like me) might have trouble believing you over five other people.

Obviously my very long explanation / response wasn't to your liking...great! You should have told me your questions were rhetorical.
Your explonation was fine, I just wished you left out those phrases that show your emotions a little too clearly about the matter.

Well you obviously believe you know enough to be able to postulate / pass judgement on someone else's input / “conspiracy theories”, etc. As far as working out… Que Sera Sera
I believe I know about basic human psychology enough to analyse emotions of a writer from nine paragraphs. That's my whole point. I don't want flamewars and I just tried to advice you not to let your emotions take over.

Now I know you're attacking me, but I don't mind. I can't see why you consider me as an "enemy". For that I apologise again, this time for hurting your feelings, which was not my intent. If you feel like throwing mud at me, I won't throw it back.

[Urnamma]

Dave, I understand that you're hurt and angry. Why are you being so incredibly visceral though? I mean, there is source documentation for each piece of armor on that Spartan (as it is now), and as Teleklos has been saying, the original unit was too flashy by far. It was toned down, repeatedly.

Do you think we haven't been fair to Celts, or Germans? You had a massive input in those areas, and what's more, I took every bit of your word with the Germans, even doing quite a bit of personal research on the subject, something that was certainly virgin territory for me (researching Celts and Germans).

I respect and love the commitment you had to EB and that you have to the Celtic peoples. I can't help but feel this is a deeper vendetta though. The pure emotional anger that you are expressing is so... visceral.

I really want your personal input here, because this whole thing is not only unsavory, but wholly unnecessary, as many non-members have pointed out.

The whole 'those that are left' comment is just out of the ballpark. We have more team members than ever, and many of the original guys are still around, what's more. Stormy, Myself (if I may include myself in that group), Aymar, Khelvan, and many, many others still give constructive comment or help with development as much as their personal circumstances allow. We've had our disagreements, quite a few off them in fact, and downright arguments. But, for the most part, this team is very much like a big family. I suppose my reason for saying all this is that I still consider you a part of that family, and it really does concern everyone involved here that you're so angry.

I am on MSN all the time. If you want to discuss it with me, my door is always open for you. This thread though, I am tempted to close it, with profuse apologies to the man who began it, whose concerns were not adequately addressed because of your crusade.

But.. What do the other non-members think? Is this 'debate' past any point of usefulness? Do we want to have a war of sources? I can readily provide all of you with specific page numbers and articles as well as specific finds from which this unit is based. Would that settle the argument, or do we need something more?

This whole team has created this mod for our personal enjoyment to some degree, but always with history as the watchword. I want to ask all of you, myself, to come forward with any concerns you might have with accuracy of our units. We do make mistakes, and we've never said otherwise.

There has been a distinct and acknowledged misstep in not including many of your fine skins for the Germans, but due to absences of those working on that particular facet of the mod, I think it was one that we are just going to have to say :oops: and try to fix it for v1.0.

As I said before, Dave, my door is open to you now and always if you'd like to talk about this, but airing all this anger in as much 'public' as the internet can provide doesn't help anyone, and merely, as Cronos has stated, takes much needed energy and expends it on a struggle that must be, from your tone, at least as much personally directed against the team as against source material or construction process for individual units.

In any case, I've taken up too much of my and all of your time, and I must get back to my studies.

[Artificer]

But.. What do the other non-members think? Is this 'debate' past any point of usefulness? Do we want to have a war of sources? I can readily provide all of you with specific page numbers and articles as well as specific finds from which this unit is based. Would that settle the argument, or do we need something more?


I would like to see the sources used, not to further this argument, but simply to get a grasp of the source material used by the Europa Barbarorum team on this matter. It's always neat to get a peek into the behind the scenes work of any given project, especially one as interesting as this. :2thumbsup:

Artificer

[PSYCHO V]

Hmm..


This thread gives me headaches. Look Sir My2bob, your campaign is wasting energy (yours and everybody's)....valuable energy that could be used for more creative pursues.....like fishing, cooking….

No one’s forcing you to read this Cron. If you have cooking to do, by all means go do it. Wouldn’t want to be responsible for you starving to death in addition to that already incurred ~:)



..I would like to thank you for whatever you did in the past for EB. I don't know you and I don't know what your contribution was but in any case, thanks because I love EB and I feel grateful towards all those that have contributed to make it what it is..

Ta. I have never been a glory seeker. You won’t ever see me posting my work to gain awards or titles, to promote myself. I have always put the mod (EB) first. My satisfaction was knowing that all you guys would enjoy a game that is not only professional looking, ground breaking in gameplay and fun but is as historically accurate as humanly possible - Satisfaction that I contributed to these ends. Hence 70% + of my work in EB does not even bare my mark /name nor any credit given to me. Data, Models and Skins completely reworked / made anew bear the names of others due to me wishing to honour their contribution and my desire to remain sensitive to their feelings. I had always thought of the collective good of the team and mod as a whole. If things needed changing, updating, re-doing, etc, individuals were always consulted and permission gained.



I would like to know what is your motivation now???

Same as always, because I care



I mean come on man, get over it....if you don't like EB because there are Aliens with laser guns invading Rome, cool that is your right...go look for a mod that you like and play it or better yet make one of your own. .

That’s a bit rich.. Have you invested three years and several hundred, if not thousands of hours in this project? And if I wanted my own mod, don’t you think I would have done so by now eg. Promethius. I stayed with EB because of a personal commitment to the objectives / upcomes of the project and community as a whole.



..stop attacking the EB team on a personal level just because you parted ways in the past and obviously you have not forgotten it. .

The parting is only recent and for the record, the guys still ‘in the mod’ are no more ‘EB’ than those that are no longer very active (Khelvan, Aymar, Ranika, etc etc) or like myself, left. EB is not an exclusive men’s club. EB is a community collective that has collaborated to make one of the community’s most kick ass mod. It is a team effort and I (like others) will (with or without current membership) always be regarded a contributor.



Why do you come here and express your evident bitterness about the work of a team you DO NOT belong to anymore and a project you obviously don't care about any longer. If you did your posts would have a very different tone. .

lol ...Like I need to defend my actions to you ~:flirt:

However, for the benefit of those that need this publically re-enforced…
I would have preferred this to be handled within EB but the powers that be would not allow it. I have endure years of being derided, belittled and undermined by those that should have been mature enough to known better, but I did so willingly. I did so for EB and ultimately for the community. Unfortunately things had recently taken a turn for the worse and I was no longer able to endure it any longer. Many many hours of work have been flushed down the toilet, old friends turned into demagogues, etc etc ad naseum. I have tried to raise these concerns internally but have been ignored or (more recently) deleted outright… giving me no right of reply. ..Until now …despite the odd deletion.



Understand that by doing this you are not lessening them but yourself. Please don't degrade yourself. .

Think what you may. I have never concerned myself with popularity contests. I call a spade a spade and if that’s not PC enough for some sensitve souls, tough titties! ~:)



I believe I know about basic human psychology enough to analyse emotions of a writer from nine paragraphs. That's my whole point. .

But how can you stand in judgement of the outcomes of those emotions if you are ignorant of the causes / context?
To spell this out for you, imagine a case where an individual (A) has acquired a black eye from another individual (B). Now by your rationale, if ‘B’ (‘the belligerent aggressor’), tries to publicly explain the situation / motives, they are dismissed as an overly emotional conspiracy theorist… a crazy.
However if you add context; that B caught A raping B’s own six year old daughter, the matter seems to make a little more sense and B no longer appears quite as crazy , overly emotional.



If you feel like throwing mud at me, I won't throw it back.

I think you’ve probably thrown enough for the time being.



I was only stating the obvious and was trying to make you understand why an outsider (like me) might have trouble believing you over five other people. .

Maybe next time, before jumping to conclusions and casting dispersions whilst “not knowing the facts”, you could stop and reflect for a moment. It's All I ask.



I can't see why you consider me as an "enemy". .

Sorry to disappoint you but I don’t.



I apologise again.

Thank you. Me too.



But compromises *were* made on the unit - that's the whole point. Anyone who doesn't think that is the case isn't looking at the unit that remains:
-ornamentation on the helmet was removed
-ornamentation on the greaves were removed
-decorations on the cape were removed
-the blue (expensive) and yellow dyes on a little bit of cloth at the shoulders were removed
-all the decoration on the sheath was taken off
-the cuirass engraving itself was toned down
-the wrist guards were removed
-the pteryges were made more in line with other greek units
-the tunic border was simplified from two levels with patterns to one smaller level with simpler pattern.

Yes but you’ve missed the point Dave. Contrary to what you keep inferring, ie. the ‘experts’ / historians are all happy with it as if this depiction was of their choosing, it wasn’t the case. The ‘experts’ were dragged kicking and screaming to make compromises because the unwashed, uneducated ‘barbarian’ plebs said “hang on, that’s just bullshit”. Its sad but people had to resign before some could concede (though never overtly) they were wrong / had exaggerated the “reasonable-ness” of the depiction. The point, the so-called ‘experts’ aren’t infallible.



Why so much anger against this unit as it remains and the process that got it this way?

Again you’ve still missed the point. It’s not the unit, nor each issue in isolation. It’s the attitudes and processes.



If you call that "blindly following" then so be it - it's a easy way to rationalize not agreeing with a vote.

Don’t make me laugh.You only defer to the ‘democractic’ process / “vote” out of positional expediency.

As evidenced in this very thread. If it’s anything to do with the Hellenes, you’ll go on and on about the qualifications / knowledge / supremacy of the Hellene FC / ‘experts’. If it has nothing to do with them, to hell with what the other FC / ‘experts’ think… bring on the “vote”, knowing full well that these other FC / ‘experts’ are in the minority.



Any member can voice their opinion of how things are going also.

~:) Oh they can try, they just need to be prepared for the response :tomato2:



We do miss your working on celtic units, very much, but other people have to step in and do the best they can now and they are. That's about it.

A shame you obviously didn’t appreciate my work / ideas / opinions enough when I still wished to actively contribute. And that’s only part of it :shrug:



Do you think we haven't been fair to Celts, or Germans? .

Matee ..for the nth time NO!! It’s got nothing to do with the Celts, Germans or Callithumpians for that matter. But rather the attitudes and actions of my colleagues and ‘friends’.



This thread ..I am tempted to close it, with profuse apologies to the man who began it, whose concerns were not adequately addressed because of your crusade..

Crusade? Rather condescending and inflammatory don’t you think there Matt, considering the local environ and the fact you admit you don’t understand the context?
So again others can raise concerns about EB but not I? Doesn’t normally surprise me but from you?



I want to ask all of you, myself, to come forward with any concerns you might have with accuracy of our units. We do make mistakes, and we've never said otherwise..

Ah.. still hope for EB :applause:



Dave, I understand that you're hurt and angry. Why ..? … I really want your personal input here… I am on MSN all the time. If you want to discuss it with me, my door is always open for you…I respect and love the commitment you had to EB and that you have to the Celtic peoples… .

Cheers mate. Ok fair enough, I’ll try and catch up with you sometime this weekend



my2bob

[Thaatu]

But how can you stand in judgement of the outcomes of those emotions if you are ignorant of the causes / context?
To spell this out for you, imagine a case where an individual (A) has acquired a black eye from another individual (B). Now by your rationale, if ‘B’ (‘the belligerent aggressor’), tries to publicly explain the situation / motives, they are dismissed as an overly emotional conspiracy theorist… a crazy.
However if you add context; that B caught A raping B’s own six year old daughter, the matter seems to make a little more sense and B no longer appears quite as crazy , overly emotional.
But there is no point for you being emotional about this. Again, what I'm trying to say is the better you control your feelings the better chances you'll have getting your message across. This is a public forum, so the facts are accessable only to a minority of the readers.


I think you’ve probably thrown enough for the time being.
You have seriously misinterpreted what I have said. Please, if you would just go through any of my posts you would see that they contain no personal attacks or insults. All I have accused you for is that you are a human being.

[Ludens]

But.. What do the other non-members think? Is this 'debate' past any point of usefulness? Do we want to have a war of sources? I can readily provide all of you with specific page numbers and articles as well as specific finds from which this unit is based. Would that settle the argument, or do we need something more?
This thread should be closed in my opinion. Psycho has had a chance to respond, and there is no point to continuing this discussion in public.

[Watchman]

I know watching it gives me the same kind of uncomfortable, embarassed feeling as listening to couples sorting out their differences in public.

[Revenant]

I know watching it gives me the same kind of uncomfortable, embarassed feeling as listening to couples sorting out their differences in public.


exactly

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Indeed it is apparent to me now that no amount of explaining about this one unit or how it got to look how it looks now or even how almost (but not quite) everyone on the team agrees with it (especially the Hellenic FC's and historians) will satisfy the complaints coming from him. I really can't understand what I posted in post 75 above about the unit can be dissected and disagreed with like it was. This one stinking unit was too fancy, we all argued over it, it got fixed and most all of us are happy with it, but he isn't still. That seriously was like a year ago too. There's nothing else to say that I can think of now and I'm positive nothing I can say will matter to him.

I've not said anything anywhere near as bad to you Psycho as you are making me out to be, but you make me out to be some kind of... whatever man - you'll just rip that apart too. I'm out of this thread; there's plenty more stuff that will actually help the mod that needs doing.

[SaFe]

You had a massive input in those areas, and what's more, I took every bit of your word with the Germans

Sadly thats right,

one reason why some of us (Stefan, Uwe and me) lost the will, patience and fortitude to work further on the germanic faction.

Nobody could ever say, that Psycho's input was not important, but i think his knowledge about celts sometimes "shadows" any neutral view on other cultures.

BUT - i still disagree with many of Psycho's decissions, nonetheless i try to help Jasper, the new germanic faction coordinator with my knowledge as i fell in love with the idea of EB a few years ago:embarassed:

Conclusion - let's get over it and enjoy the wonderful work the team has done - some of us will never agree in all aspects of the mod, but let's be honest: Without the mod we would still have to play with screeching women and a ahistorical egypt. At least we all could agree here:-)

[Domitius Ulpianus]

I know watching it gives me the same kind of uncomfortable, embarassed feeling as listening to couples sorting out their differences in public.


The analogy is just perfect. Specially because one side is raising the voice and putting a good show....just to get attention...I had a girlfriend once that loved to do these "scenes" in public... I always ignored her during those episodes...because for me that's blackmailing....but of course that is just me and my ex....

BTW, about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domitius Ulpianus
"Understand that by doing this you are not lessening them but yourself. Please don't degrade yourself."

Originally Posted by Psycho
"Think what you may. I have never concerned myself with popularity contests. I call a spade a spade and if that’s not PC enough for some sensitve souls, tough titties!"

Obviously you missed the point Psycho, I was talking about integrity, not popularity....but I do understand it is hard for some to recognize the difference.

Peace.

[Imperator]

It seems like the argument isn't about this specific unit as much as it is about the process used to make it.

Psycho claims that this unit is an example of how the EB system can be abused or bullied into neglecting history, and he complains that he feels that the team is not as democratic or fair as it should be. There's no reason to bite his head off. How many people are there that feel like that? It may be that Psycho is in a minority and feels ripped off because he was treated unfairly, or he thought he was.

Therefore, the best way (it seems) to resolve the issue would be for a much more open exchange. Psycho might want to put a few suggestions up (not necessarily here, but somewhere) to help fix what he percieves as a problem with EB. Arguing about whether injuries were dealt or whether X is Y or Y is X is often fruitless. Psycho and several team members are at an impasse; let them discuss what they should do, rather than what they did.

There is no reason to assume Psycho is wrong, nor is there reason to assume he's right. So why not offer some suggestions- how do you think the EB team could deal with its problems? If you have some suggestions, and express them in a moderately civil way- I'm sure they would be considered. But if you elaborate only on a problem and never a solution, you tend to hurt feelings and start conflict.


...just some advice from an observer.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Oh it is very clear to me that his post was never really about the unit....and frankly I don't think it is about the "undemocratic" ways of EB team.

When you start an argument by turning on the fan and bringing a ton of crap you don't have a rational point to make...

Again, just my :2cents: ,me too, I'm just an observer.

BTW, I am publicly stating my views and opinions on this thread that really doesn't concern me directly, because someone else decided to make this discussion public.

Oh, one last thing I am sorry for implying that Psycho choosed a good user name, that was clearly innapropiate, but at the time I didn't think all the discussion was for real and that this was just another random/WTF kind of post. My bad.

[antiochus epiphanes]

the interactions between man and man are confusing and futile. close the thread, its just going off a rabbit trail that this pscyho has hijacked.....

[Gabeed]

So, uh . ..I'm a rather new EB convert (played RTR up to about a week ago), and I'd just like to say that me reading this soap opera of a thread starting from talking about KH to bitter dispute over the spartan unit was the most entertaining 40 minutes of my spring break.
I know I'm no expert of this time period compared to many on this forum (First Crusade is my specialty, actually), but I'd just like to say that the Spartans, and indeed many more units in EB, seem much more realistic than in any other mod I've tried (3 hp RTR spartans . ..bah). Maybe there is still a good amount of work to be done to perfect the Spartans, and this mod in general, but it is the best I've seen so far, and I really appreciate the work you guys have put into it.

[Boyar Son]

So, uh . ..I'm a rather new EB convert (played RTR up to about a week ago), and I'd just like to say that me reading this soap opera of a thread starting from talking about KH to bitter dispute over the spartan unit was the most entertaining 40 minutes of my spring break...


You havent seen anything yet!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yes but you’ve missed the point Dave. Contrary to what you keep inferring, ie. the ‘experts’ / historians are all happy with it as if this depiction was of their choosing, it wasn’t the case. The ‘experts’ were dragged kicking and screaming to make compromises because the unwashed, uneducated ‘barbarian’ plebs said “hang on, that’s just bullshit”. Its sad but people had to resign before some could concede (though never overtly) they were wrong / had exaggerated the “reasonable-ness” of the depiction. The point, the so-called ‘experts’ aren’t infallible.

Sorry, gotta post again. Although I did not initially work with the artist (as in, before the first WIP image was posted), as one of the "experts" on the faction, I have now taken a look back at my comments (almost a year ago exactly), and need to say a few things here. My first reaction and first glance post was complimenting the artist (if you've got any sense, you *always* do that first), and told him that I loved it (after all, it was a beautiful and glorious work of art). I did say though that the cloak looked too flashy for sure and the first thing we should do was tone it down. My second post, on the next day, after looking at it in more detail, was longer and here is all of it (unedited) that spoke to the unit.



Was the standard soldier equipped in such a way as our screenshot shows? I don't know, and no one else knows for sure, but I'll say that I think probably not. Some individual ones might have been, serving in southern italy, egypt, crete, etc., could lead to this especially with their track record over the past century in dealing with Persians and other eastern monarchs and with their current king. But it does seem to ask too much to expect them all to look this way. If we had unlimited skinners and unit space, I'd suggest having something like this but maybe toned down just a bit as the starting spartiates, and then possibly with a reformer who comes along later remove these and have instead a much less elaborate spartiate unit that is actually stronger. Let's please work together and come up with something that is appropriate for 272 and not on either extreme. Refusing to make any changes or threatening to reskin it entirely for optional download would both be too extreme I think.

I'm personally willing to probably let it go a little more towards elaborateness than "Spartanness" though, for two reasons - 1. to somewhat contradict the standard 479 BC ideas of Spartans that most people have and that by this time that are outdated, and 2. to allow the most elite unit in this faction to be a little more graphically interesting for the players. That doesn't mean ahistorical, but if we are thinking about the range of what they actually looked like then maybe going a little more to luxuriousness than one strictly in the middle of that range would look like. But what are the offending details here anyway? The greaves' ornamentation? Do we have any sources? The breastplate, the breastplate's carving, the detail of the breastplate's mouldings? The helmet is even less fancy than some of the ones Matt showed me from this time period, and it seems like more restraint was placed there than I expected. The sword hilt? Let's see it in an in-game photo and then offer up our suggestions.

In the end I really hope we can present a fairly united front to the public on this unit. Some people will have a cemented 479BC spartan in their heads and won't budge and will complain. Some people really don't like very plain spartans either and are going to complain. Let's be patient with it and work together.
Too bad I was being so unreasonable and so unwilling to listen to other points of view. :laugh4: This clearly sets out how I deal with almost everything in the mod too - and if anyone thinks it is not so, feel free to say so here. I try to limit the third, fourth, fifth, etc. criticism of units so that we can keep pushing forward and our artists don't get exasperated. I try to complement everyone who does real work as much as possible. I pick up every bit of slack I can and keep up good humor and use happy and laughing smilies enough to make it embarrassing. Take the middle road. Go out of your way to find new buildings for factions that don't have enough. Help write descriptions for most of Sabaean buildings. Take the initiative and push for new Carthaginian monuments and every unique building in "barbarian" lands that has been submitted (save one bathtub-sized one). Your comments on my dealing with this hurts me very much, and you are relentless in depicting me as some sort of monster (and you'll quote this and say I'm exaggerating here too, keeping up the act). Ask any member we have ever had here mate. You alone have this attitude/opinion from anything at all that I have seen.

My third post on the matter:

Matt already explained that this is not gold but bronze and brass. And the idea that Sparta is a spent force in 270 and thus they can't field a force so luxuriously endowed is exactly what I tried to explain is just wrong. Even though they were much stronger militarily and politically at an earlier period, in this period they may have been weaker (not "spent" though) but were given over much more to luxury (which this king was said to have brought to sparta) than in earlier times. It's exactly the opposite. The unit will be simplified - if people aren't happy with the changes, then take it from there, but let aymar or agart tone it down and put it in the game first.

Why should anyone bother writing anything about any context for the unit historically... The bold is added now - but that's exactly what we did. At first glance it was so beautiful, and everyone said so, but we (yes, I did say "we", though some members had stronger feelings than others) quickly started talking about ways to simplify it, and that's what we ultimately did.

Oh yeah, the person who objected the most is still on the team also, and I respect him a great deal (even more so in the last day because he told us to bring a particular person onto the team two weeks ago, and we only just now are doing it - but he was right for sure when he first said it). No one quit over that unit. It's been a year after all.

edit: Oh, that bold "and put it in the game first" was *definitely* not referring to submitting it officially - just getting a shot of it in RTW and not just as a render in the modelling program.

[Boyar Son]

http://www.rahoi.com/2006/03/may-i-take-your-order.php

I hope you guys see this...

And instead of spartan agoe at Athens, how 'bout just putting that type 2 in (the one with there name). If this doesnt make sense just ignore:sweatdrop:

EDIT: Oh Sh!t I never knew how to post a hyperlink but I did....

[Kull]

After careful deliberations in the Star Chamber, my I********i brethren have dictated that this thread be silenced since it has clearly run it's course.