Slavery - who is at fault

[rory_20_uk]

This year in the Uk there has been an outpouring of collective guilt and shame on the part of politicians and some clergy.

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

Some have gone further, blaming the development of Africa on the slave trade, and therefore on Europe.

So, where do you think the blame lies? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

[Pannonian]

People who have been dead for centuries.

[Crazed Rabbit]

With historical slavery (not modern human trafficking, which is not for the same purpose), it lies with those who captured people to sell for slaves, those who dealt in slaves, taking them from seller to buyer, those who bought slaves, and those who owned slaves.

But they're all dead now.

Crazed Rabbit

[Pindar]

This year in the Uk there has been an outpouring of collective guilt and shame on the part of politicians and some clergy.

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

Some have gone further, blaming the development of Africa on the slave trade, and therefore on Europe.

So, where do you think the blame lies? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

George Bush.

[Bijo]

This year in the Uk there has been an outpouring of collective guilt and shame on the part of politicians and some clergy.

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

Some have gone further, blaming the development of Africa on the slave trade, and therefore on Europe.

So, where do you think the blame lies? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:
I forgot when and where (I think some years ago) but I remember reading some article saying the underdevelopment of Africa hasn't only possibly to do with slave trade, but also with the climate preventing effective means of peasantry and then specialization, civilisation, and so on, or something along those lines, if you know what I mean.

But really, I don't know. It's not really about what we think, but about what is true and hopefully we can ascertain with certainty the truth.

That thing about white bad and black good, I dunno. I see it like this: there are humans and they are either good or evil, or somewhere in between, regardless of skin colour or other such ethnic factors.

[drone]

George Bush.
Oh sure, pick the obvious one! ~D

I blame the Romans.

[Samurai Waki]

It was those **** Egyptians. or maybe the Chinese? I'm not sure. But they're dead.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Seriously, none of you realise just what you're dealing with here, the forces we're up against.

It's the principality of Liechtenstein again.

And this time they mean business. Liechtenstein (http://www.un.org/WCAR/pressreleases/rd-d21.html) has decided to recognise its historical responsibilities. I suggest the UK follows suit and coughs up those reparations, or it'll find itself in trouble really soon. Nobody can withstand the wrath of the Alpine Principality.



ERNST WALCH, Minister for Foreign Affairs of Liechtenstein: Colonialism, slavery and the slave trade are dark chapters in the book of mankind's history. Those humiliating practices gave rise to a concept of superiority and inferiority among human beings, leading to the violation of human rights. Along with this, the one-sided exploitation of land and resources contributed to poverty, social injustice and underdevelopment of entire regions. We deeply regret those historical wrongs. We support all common efforts undertaken by the international community in that regard and have ratified, without reservations, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Who put them is slavery in thew foist place? Other tribes in Africa.Until they found they could sell then they would either keep them as slaves themselves or kill them. And why is it that slavery is only seen as a black thing. There were as many if not more white slaves throughout history than black ones.

[Adrian II]

I blame it on the bio-survival circuit, man. Like, aren't we all slaves to something? :hippie:

[Tuuvi]

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.
You're right on that one. It seems today that the tables have turned and now some (but not all of course) black people are racist against white people, but they are few in number.

I think it is best to stop thinking about slavery and stop playing the blame game. Slavery is over. There is still some racism left, but that is only in extreme groups and is not excepted by mainstream society.

[lancelot]

This whole hoo-ha about slavery is a frakkin joke!

I fail to see the point of applying modern day values to ancient customs- ok yes, slavery was terrible- we all get that, but this whole getting MPs to apologise farce, amongst other things is complete BS!

It also angers me that their is a euro-centric bias towards the slavery story, that subtle 'its all the european's fault' vibe that is currently floating around. Slavery was rife before europe came along and was certainly not confined to the whites and the christians...a fact that all too often gets played down IMHO.


I could be wrong here but I also get the implicit feeling that the slavery issue is another song in the 'this why africa is still such a mess today, lets blame everybody else' songbook.

[Meneldil]

Slavery was rife before europe came along and was certainly not confined to the whites and the christians...a fact that all too often gets played down IMHO.


Who the hell care ? You have region A that is underdevelopped and starving, and you have region B that is the wealthiest place in the world.
It occurs that region B at some point has enslaved people from region A
==> surely region A issues must be caused by region B.

It's way easier to blame someone else for your issues than to think "Well, we might have screwed something here"*.
Couple that with the masochist and PC tendancy we are currently facing in Europe, it results in PM apologizing for things that happened centuries ago, or even worse, Parliement trying to pass a law that would define Slavery as a Crim against Humanity.

Then, we have people in Europe who also blame their neighbours for their current issues. Like "Oh dude, those pesky turks invaded us 500 years ago, it's all their fault" or "We would be Europa 1st power without the Russians/Germans that colonized us a while back", or even 'Our country is collapsing because the US/China/the EU/whatever are/is backstabing us"

* Though I don't deny that Europe is responsible for a part of what is happening in Africa today.

[Marshal Murat]

I don't see the Parliaments of Norway, Sweden, or Denmark apologizing for enslaving my Irish and Scottish relatives!
I don't see the Italians apologizing for enslaving my great-great.....relatives from Gaul...


It's happened, and unless there is slavery occurring today, then it doesn't matter.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You have region A that is underdevelopped and starving, and you have region B that is the wealthiest place in the world.
It occurs that region B at some point has enslaved people from region A
==> surely region A issues must be caused by region B.


And people from region A were the ones that started enslaving people from region A. They also enslaved people from region B. Meanwhile people in region B enslaved people from region B and bought slaves from region A. There was a time when Africa was the richest region on earth and they had slaves. Africa is poor because its people are poorly educated. You cant blame Africas problems on the slave trade of 200 years ago. If that were the case Jews should be poor since at one time they were all slaves and lord knows thats not the case.

[Brenus]

I will make the same remark than the one I did in another intervention. Most of us are more than happy to commemorate victories or events in which “participants are all dead”. I didn’t read in the org. comments as “they are all dead” in the commemoration (the two) of Trafalgar… All the English were proud to have won this battle which saved them to speak French and the world in general (heard at the radio, I am not kidding…). So, when it suits us, WE won, when not “they are all dead”. Don’t you think there is a little bit of hypocrisy in here?:dizzy2:
I am not in favour of apologising for every thing, but I do thing a little bit of history could do good, even for the Africans themselves… And perhaps it will be the moment to tell that the Europeans were not the only slavers, but as well that slavery STILL exist and if your really believe it is a bad thing, what are we doing? :shame:
It exists in our streets, and in front of ours eyes, it is called prostitution. So let’s have a law, when somebody enslaves somebody else, sell her or him, he/her will be considered as a criminal against humanity and received automatically life sentence… That will be something.
All other things (apologises) are just BS. And that is an insult to the bull’s production which is very useful as fertiliser…:beam:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It exists in our streets, and in front of ours eyes, it is called prostitution

Thats not slavery and it should be legal.

[Brenus]

“That’s not slavery and it should be legal.” That is slavery if the girl or the man is forced to do it, marked and punished if/when he/she refused. That is slavery if they don’t get the money they earn in doing the job. When a 15 years old Ukrainian is put in the street and receives death menaces (and even against her own family) I can’t thing that is NOT slavery…
And yes, it should be legal: better controlled in sanitation meaning, taxes and policing.

[Incongruous]

Yeah, we brand and humiliate Prostitutes here.

[HoreTore]

The blame is on every single person who has been or are profiting from slaves. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Thats not slavery and it should be legal.

You have got to be kidding.

I suggest you look up people trafficking and the experiences of most of the sex workers across the world and then check the definition of slavery.

One of the biggest reasons why the "apology" issue is a problem is that slavery continues apace while we focus on a form of it that ended some time ago.

[Soulforged]

It exists...So true. And that's what is funny about this two threads about slavery, they talk about it in past tense. When slavery was not a crime, but even a need we cannot attribute any guilt to slavers. But right now the existent slavery is illegal, is the right kind of slavery that we should talk about, it's a crime wich is commited daily, perpetuated by employers, smugglers, authorities, it might be happening close to your home and you don't even realize it, believe me it happened to me.

[HoreTore]

I don't see the Parliaments of Norway, Sweden, or Denmark apologizing for enslaving my Irish and Scottish relatives!
I don't see the Italians apologizing for enslaving my great-great.....relatives from Gaul...


It's happened, and unless there is slavery occurring today, then it doesn't matter.

Bah! They got to see the amazing fjords, isn't that enough?!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That is slavery if the girl or the man is forced to do it

Thats not prostitution


You have got to be kidding

Ive never been more serious


I suggest you look up people trafficking and the experiences of most of the sex workers across the world and then check the definition of slavery.


The same friggin excuse the government uses for making drugs illegal. Its the laws that cause the problems by putting an obscene profit on suchthings that causes the crime element in these things.


One of the biggest reasons why the "apology" issue is a problem is that slavery continues apace while we focus on a form of it that ended some time ago.

I bet it is still most prevelant in Africa :whip: Again should Italians apologise to the rest of Europe and N Africa?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gah Double post

[Gawain of Orkeny]

wow triple post

[Marshal Murat]

Whoops!


The reason that Africa is poor is because the European colonizers did one of two things.
A)Dropped democracy on the people, when they weren't ready
B)Tried to begin democracy, but tribal divisions cut democracy apart.

[Slyspy]

Perhaps Gawain would prefer the word indentured rather than enslaved when talking about the sex trade?

I agree that protitution should be legal and, to get back on topic for a moment, that all the recent apologies for slavery in the past are utterly pointless.

[Yoyoma1910]

Don't forget:


C) Regularly assasinate elected leaders.

[HoreTore]

BTW, there are several other forms of slavery today than just the sex trade. You have the old agrarian slaves and "personal slaves"(servants, maids and such) as well. Not as common as the former though.

I have a neat report on the subject from Amnesty, unfortunately, it's in Norwegian....

[BDC]

I don't see why people try and apologise for their long dead ancestors. Especially as it was a long long time ago now, and a lot of these people apologizing will have had ancestors who were slaves too.

And let's not forget the European working class, who were little better than slaves either.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have a neat report on the subject from Amnesty, unfortunately, it's in Norwegian....That's a pity then. The .orgs working languages are English and French. :book:

Edit: Is that the report about the trafficking of female Norwegian sex slaves?
If so, how much are they? Is there like a telephone number in there?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Perhaps Gawain would prefer the word indentured rather than enslaved when talking about the sex trade

What has indentured or enslaved got to do with prostitution? Its kind of funny that we cant tell a woman she cant have an abortion because we cant tell her what to do with her body but shes not allowed to charge for someone to enjoy it. But she can give it away and thats fine. Besides it almost alweays costs you something to get laid one way or another so all women are prostitutes :beam: Its only the type of payment that need be decided.:laugh4:

[Louis VI the Fat]

besides it almost always costs you something to get laid one way or another I know. American girls are tough to crack. It costs me at least five minutes.

It's hard work too: bending forward towards her a little, gently stroking her neck, and simultaneously whispering two sentences in a french accent in her ear. :book:



* dreams on *

:shame:

[lancelot]

I actually think Gawain is right regard the legalisation of prostitution, like all things its dangerous because it is in the hands of criminals and scumbags, place it in the hands of the state and get some regulation going- I believe somewhere in the UK did actually do a trial experiment- although I dont know what became of it.

The same argument has been used for the drug issue many times in the past, but I digress, back to the topic at hand...

[Yoyoma1910]

Yes, American girls are pretty easy.


But the real answer to the question at hand, quite frankly is:



SUGAR



Sugar, and Europe's sudden addiction to it in the 1600s changed slavery from something relatively small and not nearly as destructive into a system that decimated two three continents (Africa, North America, and South America).

Furthermore, the dependence of modern societies on cash crops such as cotton, tea, and rubber aggravated the institution.



And no, it is not the African interpertation of democracy that devastated the continent. It is the fact that Africa was already devastated before it was demonstrated. And then, the use of democracy was manipulated to fulfill the needs of those who had claimed it would bring peace and modernization to the people. It was a U.S. assasination of DRC's first elected leader that placed Mobutu in power.

As well, while on paper slavery was disbanded in the 1800s, in reality it continued well into the 1900s. For instance, in the colony of the Congo Free State... also called the Belgian Congo. (An interesting book to read: King Leopold's Ghost).


Yes it's an institution as old as Prostitution or Art, however the European exploitation of it between the 1600s to late 1800s was ridiculous and unimaginably cruel.


And if you cannot see the corelation of slavery and prostitution, let me explain. Much of the world's prostitution is not some lady on a street corner offering her services to a Joe for 20 bucks. It is usually women or girls who have been kidnaped or manipulated into offering their services. Consider Cambodia for instance, where many children exist without real guidance due to the aftermath of the Camire Rouge. And now this nation has a ridiculously imense child prostitution issue, exploited regularly be pedophiles from around the world.

And all of this can be drawn back to the European neccesity to fufil its Goddamn sweet tooth.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

. It is usually women or girls who have been kidnaped or manipulated into offering their services.

Thats kidnapping not prostitution. Lets keep them seperate. If a woman wants to charge a guy for her services she should be allowed to. Thats prostitution. Not pimps and sex slaves. Thats another ball of wax. Again if prostitution werent illegal you wouldnt have all this crime assocciated with it.

[HoreTore]

That's a pity then. The .orgs working languages are English and French. :book:

Edit: Is that the report about the trafficking of female Norwegian sex slaves?
If so, how much are they? Is there like a telephone number in there?

Unfortunately, no... It's about slave labour unfortunately... But it shouldn't cost you much more than a beer or two. Always does the trick.

@ Gawain: Prostitution is legal here, but we still have a LOT of trafficking here. And yes, those women are slaves. They are held at gun point, and forced into prostitution. Sometimes they are kidnapped, but other times they are offered a cleaning job(or similar type job) in Norway. When they have been smuggled into the country, they are beaten and raped until they are they accept prostitution.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gawain: Prostitution is legal here,

So your government agrees with me


but we still have a LOT of trafficking here. And yes, those women are slaves. They are held at gun point, and forced into prostitution.

But the problem is not prostitution or prostitutions fault. Its slavery just like forced field labor. Thats the crime, not the woman selling her favors.

[John86]

Clearly republicans, they also caused AIDS, if you didnt know.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Clearly republicans, they also caused AIDS, if you didnt know.


Musta been them wascally Log Cabin Republicans :whip:

[ICantSpellDawg]

The Native Americans are responsible.

If they hadn't died in droves, the innocent money hungry evildoers would have had no market to buy or sell all of that Black Gold.

Or everyone involved with the kidnapping, transportation, selling, buying, using and abusing.

Europeans, Africans, Near Easterners, etc.
everyone except for east asians i guess. they are really guilt free in the African slave trade as a people.

[Yoyoma1910]

Well, the reason prostitution became illegal my native city, which is New Orleans, was because the U.S. Navy got more cases of Syphilis in our red light district than any other during WWI. Storyville, the birthplace of Jazz, was closed in 1917 by the Feds against strong protests from the local populous and government.

Also, I would like to point out that the kidnapping and trafficing of women for the purposes of prostitution is still prostitution.

[English assassin]

Back to the OP, I am responsible for slavery, as are my children and their as yet unborn children. And I should be made to pay. I heard it on the radio.

I am also responsible for the massacres in Rwanda, malaria, sickle cell anemia, and the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs.


I will make the same remark than the one I did in another intervention. Most of us are more than happy to commemorate victories or events in which “participants are all dead”. I didn’t read in the org. comments as “they are all dead” in the commemoration (the two) of Trafalgar… All the English were proud to have won this battle which saved them to speak French and the world in general (heard at the radio, I am not kidding…). So, when it suits us, WE won, when not “they are all dead”. Don’t you think there is a little bit of hypocrisy in here?

I don't think this argument quite works. I don't myself feel brave or admirable because of what the British did at Trafalgar. I admire the bravery of the sailors (on both sides I suppose one has to say :beam: ) their seamanship and the skill of the admiral and captains, (England only, sorry France and Spain) but I don't feel myself to be in any way a better person because of the battle.

So if you are asking me to agree that the slave trade was a terrible thing, and that even by the standards of the time the people who ran it must have been brutalised and unpleasant people, I agree. But that falls far short of saying that I personally (or my government on my behalf) should apologise. I don't think I actually CAN apologise for something I do not have responsibility for. I can say I am sorry it happened, but I can't say I am sorry I did it, which is surely the essence of an apology?

So it seems to me my attitude to historical events is consistent: I can form a view and say some are "good" and others "bad", but I don't take personal responsibility for them.

[Yoyoma1910]

The Native Americans are responsible.

If they hadn't died in droves, the innocent money hungry evildoers would have had no market to buy or sell all of that Black Gold.

Or everyone involved with the kidnapping, transportation, selling, buying, using and abusing.

Europeans, Africans, Near Easterners, etc.
everyone except for east asians i guess. they are really guilt free in the African slave trade as a people.


No, you're wrong. It is SO the fault of East asia.


If they hadn't chosen isolationist stances after the Mongolian empire, there would never have been a European advantage. It was the duty of nations like China and Japan to try and rule the world, and instead they just built walls around their societies to try and keep everyone else out. :wall:



How dare they! The evildoers!

[lancelot]

SUGAR

Sugar, and Europe's sudden addiction to it in the 1600s changed slavery from something relatively small and not nearly as destructive into a system that decimated two three continents (Africa, North America, and South America).

Furthermore, the dependence of modern societies on cash crops such as cotton, tea, and rubber aggravated the institution.

And no, it is not the African interpertation of democracy that devastated the continent. It is the fact that Africa was already devastated before it was demonstrated. And then, the use of democracy was manipulated to fulfill the needs of those who had claimed it would bring peace and modernization to the people. It was a U.S. assasination of DRC's first elected leader that placed Mobutu in power.

As well, while on paper slavery was disbanded in the 1800s, in reality it continued well into the 1900s. For instance, in the colony of the Congo Free State... also called the Belgian Congo. (An interesting book to read: King Leopold's Ghost).

And all of this can be drawn back to the European neccesity to fufil its Goddamn sweet tooth.

I think slavery can be traced back slightly further than the sugar rush in the colonial period.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Also, I would like to point out that the kidnapping and trafficing of women for the purposes of prostitution is still prostitution.


No its not. Again the crime here is kidnapping and trafficing of women for the purposes of prostitution . Is it any better if they were kiddnapped and used as field slaves? Should picking cotton be illegal? Its the part where their forced to do something against their will thats the crime.

[lars573]

No its not. Again the crime here is kidnapping and trafficing of women for the purposes of prostitution . Is it any better if they were kiddnapped and used as field slaves? Should picking cotton be illegal? Its the part where their forced to do something against their will thats the crime.
Then there's the whole lure young eastern european women to a western nation under false pretenses, and force them into stripping routine. That mean stripping should be illegal too?

[English assassin]

Then there's the whole lure young eastern european women to a western nation under false pretenses, and force them into stripping routine. That mean stripping should be illegal too?

Illegal bit highlighted for convenience.

[Yoyoma1910]

It is true, as I stated in the section you quoted, that slavery did exist before and after the age of the sugar trade. However, the plantation economy propelled the practice into an industrial nightmare.



The nature of African slavery varied from one area to another and changed over time, but most slaves had been captured in warfare. Others had been criminals or debtors, or were given away by their families as part of a dowry settlement. Like any system that gives some human beings total owner over others, slavery could be vicious...

In other ways, African slavery was more flexible and benign than the system Europeans would soon establish in the New World. Over a generation or two, slaves could often earn or be granted their freedom, and free people and slaves sometimes intermarried. Nonetheless, the fact that trading human beings existed in any form turned out to be catastrophic for Africa, for when Europeans showed up, ready to buy endless shiploads of slaves, they found African chiefs willing to sell. (Adam Hochschild, King Leopold's Ghostp.6-7)

So yes, once again, there was slavery in Africa from time immemorial. The degree and severity upon which the Europeans practiced the institution was ridiculous and uberevil. As Noel Deerr stated in his work The History of Sugar, "It will be no exaggeration to put the tale and toll of the Slave Trade as twenty million Africans, of which two-thirds are to be charged against sugar."

The agro-industrial nature of sugar allowed no down time for the land, as in traditional farming, nor for the people. Consider these numbers from Richard Dunn's work Sugar and Slaves: The Rise of the Planter Class in the English West Indies pp. 230, 312:

Between 1640-1650 Barbados Imported 18,700 slaves. Between 1651-1675 51,100. Now, in 1670 the total black population was 30,000 and in 1680 50,000. Between 1676 and 1700, 64,700 slaves were imported. And despite this immense increase in importation, the black population in 1713 was only 45,000.
Jamaica, between 1651-1700 imported around 85,100 slaves, and the population of black people in 1713 was 55,000.

The Leeward Islands (Antigua, Barbuda, Anguilla, Montserrat, St. Kitts-Nevis, and the British Virgin Ins lands) between 1640-1650 imported 2,000 slaves, 1651-1675 10,100, and from 1676-1700 32,000. The black population in 1670 was 3,00, in 1680, 9,00, and in 1713 30,000.

This displays an economy based on the increasing importation of masses and masses of cheap and highly expendable labor, the likes of which had not previously existed on this planet.



As for prostitution:


I've never know a "Happy Hooker," as I believe the term is. Henry Miller may have written about them. However, growing up in a region known for a) it's continued underground prostitution and b) its abject poverty allowed me to look at prostitution in a far more human perspective. Most of the ones I knew as neighbors were regularly beaten by their men, both customers and pimps. And when they didn't make enough money, they'd be walking the streets all night. As well most of them had diseases. It happens when your job is to sleep with anyone who can pay you. A lot of them were not first generation sex workers, either. They had been raised in the trade, and knew no other. It's an industry that is hard to get out of. Usually it takes a bit of time in Jail. Furthermore, as a friend of mine, who was once a transsexual prostitute and porn star could tell you, it promotes ignorance by allowing people to assume that their privates are all they will need to provide themselves a fulfilling life.

I don't like it. Perhaps government regulation is the key, but I doubt it. It still gives way and even promotes objectification of other human beings. For example, your comparing picking of a crop to the sex worker industry.

My advice to you, if really feel that it is the kind of industry you wish to promote, is that you become a prostitute yourself for a time period, perhaps in the Amsterdam economy where it is government regulated, and see what its like from that aspect.

I realize, as the Mayor of New Orleans said in 1917 when they shut down Storyville, "You can make it illegal, but you can't make it unpopular." However, you also cannot make it morally affordable. I do not damn anyone for their actions, and if it is what you feel you must do, go ahead. But if we are going to justify prostitution because of a society's desire to have pay-as-you-go-sex, why stop there. Why not allow murder? It's two people involved in a social activity. It involves an exchange of goods and sometimes services, such as a knife or bullet. And, judging by the numbers it damn sure is popular. True, it could get out of hand, but we could government regulate it. You know, you bring someone somewhere, pay a fee and are allowed to club them over the head with a claw hammer. You could even require that it be consensual on both sides.

[rory_20_uk]

Consenting murder? Euthinasia? I'm a proponent of it. I'd not personally use a claw hammer, but who am I to say?

Masses and masses of disposable people isn't new. The Romans were at it, and the Moguls probably did some with the people they didn't kill. Aztecs? They sacrificed who knows how many.

And why not whites? Well, they die in the heat, as often the garrisons did to the last man. Postings to the West Indies was known as almost a death sentence.

Why is it that selling sex is somehow different to what the rest of us do? I sell my time to the NHS. I alter what I say, how I dress and who I see for money. Same with anyone else with a job. So they choose to sell sex. Probably a way to get more money quicker than they could otherwise do. Choosing to do it is a lot difference than being forced into it - or any other job.

~:smoking:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Why is it that selling sex is somehow different to what the rest of us do? I sell my time to the NHS. I alter what I say, how I dress and who I see for money. Same with anyone else with a job. So they choose to sell sex. Probably a way to get more money quicker than they could otherwise do. Choosing to do it is a lot difference than being forced into it - or any other job.

You answered your own question. It is very rarely a free choice.

[Slyspy]

Gawain, you seem to be confused. We are talking about slavery for the sake of prostitution, not stating that all prostitution is slavery.

[KukriKhan]

Slavery. Fault. Prostitution. Apologies. Hmmm

A hypothetical, to (hopefully) illuminate:

If UK citizen Sammy Sleaze, in 1825 kidnapped (or lured) some women to labour as sex workers - that is, obtained and kept them by means of force - and he was therefore unfairly enriched from their cheap labour, and they were unfairly under-compensated for their labour...

And Sammy's descendents were therefore unfairly advantaged with educational opportunities and lifestyles, while the labourers' descendents remained unfairly disadvantaged in the same areas...

Do Sammy's living-today descendents owe anything to Polly Prostitute's descendents? In money? In expressions of regret? In apology? In anything?

Or do we just castigate Sammy, say he was wrong, and that subsequent generations' relative advantaged or disadvantaged positions are merely ' the way of history', the way the cookie crumbled?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Or do we just castigate Sammy, say he was wrong, and that subsequent generations' relative advantaged or disadvantaged positions are merely ' the way of history', the way the cookie crumbled?

In the UK, Sammy Sleaze is made head of fund-raising for New Labour and promoted to the House of Lords...

As many others have noted, the sins of the fathers cannot be visited upon the sons. At least I hope not, as my lifestyle today is largely due to the violence, rapine and extreme thuggery practised on the unwilling peasantry by my illustrious ancestors.

The same probably holds true to a greater or lesser extent to every human family on the planet.

[rory_20_uk]

You answered your own question. It is very rarely a free choice.

Rubbish. I have no free choice but to work. When I go to work I have little choice in how I conduct myself. If you state that my other choice is to be unemployed I don't view that as a valid choice at all.

And you're playing the man not the ball if your only argument against prostitution is that it is wrong as most women are forced into it - it is wrong that they are forced into it, but no more wrong than people are forced into picking cockles or flowers. Prostitutes might earn per hour what these others do per day.

~:smoking:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Rubbish. I have no free choice but to work. When I go to work I have little choice in how I conduct myself. If you state that my other choice is to be unemployed I don't view that as a valid choice at all.

And you're playing the man not the ball if your only argument against prostitution is that it is wrong as most women are forced into it - it is wrong that they are forced into it, but no more wrong than people are forced into picking cockles or flowers. Prostitutes might earn per hour what these others do per day.


I can't see where expressing my opinion "plays the man" - which is usually a phrase associated with making personal attacks.

You express a very hard view on how you define choice, with which I don't agree. Neither incidentally do most studies into the subject or any human rights agencies.

Nonetheless, it is possible to define choice in those harsh terms, so we will continue to disagree, methinks.

[rory_20_uk]

To clarify, I am against women (or men or children) being forced into becoming prostitutes. But to decry the industry as a whole based upon the fact that this happens is not justified. Some might find the benefits of high pay and flexible hours a good incentive. Don't porn stars make the same choice to perform sexual acts in exchange for money, and rarely is their industry attacked.

~:smoking:

[Blodrast]

I can't see where expressing my opinion "plays the man" - which is usually a phrase associated with making personal attacks.

You express a very hard view on how you define choice, with which I don't agree. Neither incidentally do most studies into the subject or any human rights agencies.

Nonetheless, it is possible to define choice in those harsh terms, so we will continue to disagree, methinks.

I'm afraid I agree with rory here, BG. No, we don't really have a choice but to work, in today's society (let's ignore people who can live comfortably without having to do anything for a living, they are a minority).
I have to work. I don't have a choice. Or, if you prefer, the only alternative choice is to starve to death.
But in that case, the women we're talking about also have a choice: they can choose to do what they're forced to do, or die. So if you want to look at "having a choice" from that perspective, it works both ways.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'm afraid I agree with rory here, BG. No, we don't really have a choice but to work, in today's society (let's ignore people who can live comfortably without having to do anything for a living, they are a minority).
I have to work. I don't have a choice. Or, if you prefer, the only alternative choice is to starve to death.
But in that case, the women we're talking about also have a choice: they can choose to do what they're forced to do, or die. So if you want to look at "having a choice" from that perspective, it works both ways.

Both rory and you make a perfectly arguable and valid point. The word "choice" certainly encompasses the point you're making.

I guess in the context of the thread, slaves also had that kind of choice. So they chose their enslavement too rather than die.

I still disagree that the harshness of the position actually gives any real choice at all, but then I'm a softie and believe human beings should have better options for the choice to be voluntary and meaningful. I know, I'm practically a hippie. :wink:

[JR-]

Whoops!


The reason that Africa is poor is because the European colonizers did one of two things.
A)Dropped democracy on the people, when they weren't ready
B)Tried to begin democracy, but tribal divisions cut democracy apart.

really, they are major reasons, nay the only reason, why africa is poor? lol

[JR-]

one is reminded by these excellent words:


Letter to the Times - Revel Barker, Malta - "Sir, Is any nation going to apologise for eating our missionaries?"

[rory_20_uk]

Prostitutes have choices above those of the slaves who were sent to the Caribbean. The slaves did have a be shipped or die choice. Sex workers have a more meaningful one to make.

~:smoking:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Again using the resoning of some around here cotton farming should be illegal because blacks will be enslaved to pick it. Its the fact that its illegal that makes many of these women turn to pimps . If your a slave you ca be forced to do almost anything your master wants. Should we make all these things illegal? No more butlers or cleaning people either. And say goodbye to all that Mexican labor. Finally a solution to the immigration problem:beam:

[Yoyoma1910]

I don't really view most forms of prostitution as a choice, so much as an economic necessity. I doubt anyone, even someone who "chooses" to become a prostitute really wants to let someone stick their syphilitic privates into one of three orifices in exchange for somewhere between $5 to $500... or more depending on appearance and circumstances.

But maybe you think otherwise. Maybe you see everything that happens as a choice made out of luxury and not necessity. You could have certainly chosen another career path, I assume. Why didn't you? Have you considered prostitution, since you are a proponent of it? Perhaps you like syphilitic appendages poking around in your nether regions? Maybe someone you know has 5 quid they could drop in your pocket.

And just like you cannot seperate racial discrimination from segregation, I do not believe you can seperate forced prostitution from prostitution. The theory that because it is "consentual" making it somehow justified and more acceptable is foolish. As long as it is accepted by people in any form, there will be a black market sex industry.

Consider, if you will, the mass issues India is currently having with its sex industry.

Edited to add this link concerning prostitution in India:

http://www.sanlaapindia.org/

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I don't really view most forms of prostitution as a choice, so much as an economic necessity

You mean like working.


doubt anyone, even someone who "chooses" to become a prostitute really wants to let someone stick their syphilitic privates into one of three orifices in exchange for somewhere between $5 to $500... or more depending on appearance and circumstances.


Then you dont know women or human nature. Damn I wish women would pay me for sexual favors. Id be a prostitute in a heartbeat.


You could have certainly chosen another career path, I assume. Why didn't you? Have you considered prostitution, since you are a proponent of it? Perhaps you like syphilitic appendages poking around in your nether regions? Maybe someone you know has 5 quid they could drop in your pocket.


I just covered that and why is it you think everyone has syphilitic appendages ?


And just like you cannot seperate racial discrimination from segregation,

You certainky can


I do not believe you can seperate forced prostitution from prostitution.

So then you cant seperate labor from forced labor and all labor is wrong. So go quit your job.

[rory_20_uk]

So... prostitution is an economic necessity. BUT if someone says they do their job for money you say then change jobs... Even though they've just said they need the money... :inquisitive:

Either £5 an hour to work a menial job, or £50 - generally tax free.

Have I considered prostitution? Well, I am very intelligent so that allows me to go into the more prestigious fields (I know -self denial. When has sorting out an abusive drunk been prestigious?) My appearance isn't amazing, and I'm not in great shape. My genitals are average (an in my job you get a large sample size to compare with), so in all I'm not likely to be successful.

And it appears that you are reflecting your feelings about the mechanics of prostitution onto everyone else.

I'm a "wage slave". I want a house, a family and a decent retirement. I could stop working, but I have rent to pay, food isn't free and if I'm not actively searching for work I get no money from the government.

~:smoking:

[Yoyoma1910]

Male prostitution does certainly exist, and in greater numbers than I can only guess you imagine. If you are unaware of this part of the industry, then I can only assume it is either because you have never been in a position where you had to know about it, or that you are not really that knowledgeable about the prostitution industry. Which would make sense.

If you really want women to pay you for sex, and you decide to, or perhaps because everything around you collapses (as often is the case) and by situations find yourself with few option except to undertake this as your work, they will. Mind you, it most likely won't be pleasant for you, as it is not for most prostitutes. You probably won't be having sex with the people you'd like to be with.

Women and men aren't as different as you imagine. Certainly the recent abuses by female public educators against their students should show you that. There is not some separate moral code that women and men really live by, only social codes, which are easily ignored.



And I'm very glad that you believe that Racial Discrimination can be separated from Segregation, because it shows why nations that were longterm proponents of slavery and racial inequality need to apologize, because it has bred an ignorance in their population that no laws or Supreme Court decisions can overturn. Lets forget everything that the U.S. did to keep down minorities, because, hey we're not those people. But we still are, aren't we? What's really changed in the hearts and minds or make up of the population? Nothing. Only the government waving its finger.

[Suraknar]

This year in the Uk there has been an outpouring of collective guilt and shame on the part of politicians and some clergy.

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

Some have gone further, blaming the development of Africa on the slave trade, and therefore on Europe.

So, where do you think the blame lies? :inquisitive:

~:smoking:

Greed.

[Suraknar]

Why Greed?

In all actuality...

The question is more complex than that, while Greed is the final result, it may not be the original factor, the answer therefore is a culmination of factors that leads to greed in a temporal evolution.

For an accurate answer to this question, we must examine the History of slavery all the way back to the first civilisations. And even then, it may root even farther back in to Pre-History.

There is nothing that says or denies for that matter, that as Hommo Sapiens expanded out of Africa and in to Europe that they did not enslave Neanderthals as they met them and during the rough 30,000 years of coexistance between the two Human Races.

Unfortunently, the lack of archeological evidence, limits us to studdy slavery from the advent of history onwards, so the question becomes what references if any do we have on slavery at the begining of the first civilisations?

Examining the evidence we find from that we can then form more informed opinions as to whom to blaim for it or why, but that changes with time.

Certaintly the people who did employ slavery back then are long dead.

Yet that does not excuse the fact that slavery continued, ignorance and lack of understanding steming from it is another factor, yet, this could probably be attributed to the ancient world, and the Dark ages.

Yet the more we approach modern times, ignorance loses its validity as a factor, and is overtaken by Greed...so, who is to blaim in modern times for any form of slavery? Greed, and the motivators of it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If you really want women to pay you for sex, and you decide to, or perhaps because everything around you collapses (as often is the case) and by situations find yourself with few option except to undertake this as your work, they will. Mind you, it most likely won't be pleasant for you, as it is not for most prostitutes. You probably won't be having sex with the people you'd like to be with.



Look unlike your profile I really am old. What woman is going to pay to have sex with a 60 year oldman? Besides prostitutes dont have to have sex with men they dont like. They can pick and choose just like other women. Some women actually enjoy being prostitutes. I know thats hard for you to fathom. Just as some are into masochism and bondage. What people want to do i their bedrooms is nobodies buissness but their own. I dont care if their getting paid for it as long as their ok with it.

[rory_20_uk]

Ignorance of what? Different values certainly. Slavery today still occurs in Africa as in many other parts of the world. It seems that Europe allowed this to flourish by providing a massive market for their wares.

~:smoking: