Slavery - who is at fault

[rory_20_uk]

This year in the Uk there has been an outpouring of collective guilt and shame on the part of politicians and some clergy.

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

Some have gone further, blaming the development of Africa on the slave trade, and therefore on Europe.

So, where do you think the blame lies?

[Pannonian]

People who have been dead for centuries.

[Crazed Rabbit]

With historical slavery (not modern human trafficking, which is not for the same purpose), it lies with those who captured people to sell for slaves, those who dealt in slaves, taking them from seller to buyer, those who bought slaves, and those who owned slaves.

But they're all dead now.

Crazed Rabbit

[Pindar]

This year in the Uk there has been an outpouring of collective guilt and shame on the part of politicians and some clergy.

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

Some have gone further, blaming the development of Africa on the slave trade, and therefore on Europe.

So, where do you think the blame lies?

George Bush.

[Bijo]

This year in the Uk there has been an outpouring of collective guilt and shame on the part of politicians and some clergy.

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

Some have gone further, blaming the development of Africa on the slave trade, and therefore on Europe.

So, where do you think the blame lies?

I forgot when and where (I think some years ago) but I remember reading some article saying the underdevelopment of Africa hasn't only possibly to do with slave trade, but also with the climate preventing effective means of peasantry and then specialization, civilisation, and so on, or something along those lines, if you know what I mean.

But really, I don't know. It's not really about what we think, but about what is true and hopefully we can ascertain with certainty the truth.

That thing about white bad and black good, I dunno. I see it like this: there are humans and they are either good or evil, or somewhere in between, regardless of skin colour or other such ethnic factors.

[drone]

George Bush.

Oh sure, pick the obvious one!

I blame the Romans.

[Samurai Waki]

It was those **** Egyptians. or maybe the Chinese? I'm not sure. But they're dead.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Seriously, none of you realise just what you're dealing with here, the forces we're up against.

It's the principality of Liechtenstein again.

And this time they mean business. Liechtenstein has decided to recognise its historical responsibilities. I suggest the UK follows suit and coughs up those reparations, or it'll find itself in trouble really soon. Nobody can withstand the wrath of the Alpine Principality.

ERNST WALCH, Minister for Foreign Affairs of Liechtenstein: Colonialism, slavery and the slave trade are dark chapters in the book of mankind's history. Those humiliating practices gave rise to a concept of superiority and inferiority among human beings, leading to the violation of human rights. Along with this, the one-sided exploitation of land and resources contributed to poverty, social injustice and underdevelopment of entire regions. We deeply regret those historical wrongs. We support all common efforts undertaken by the international community in that regard and have ratified, without reservations, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Who put them is slavery in thew foist place? Other tribes in Africa.Until they found they could sell then they would either keep them as slaves themselves or kill them. And why is it that slavery is only seen as a black thing. There were as many if not more white slaves throughout history than black ones.

[Adrian II]

I blame it on the bio-survival circuit, man. Like, aren't we all slaves to something?

[Tuuvi]

Personally I feel that this cartoonish white = bad, black = good way of viewing matters is unproductive.

You're right on that one. It seems today that the tables have turned and now some (but not all of course) black people are racist against white people, but they are few in number.

I think it is best to stop thinking about slavery and stop playing the blame game. Slavery is over. There is still some racism left, but that is only in extreme groups and is not excepted by mainstream society.

[lancelot]

This whole hoo-ha about slavery is a frakkin joke!

I fail to see the point of applying modern day values to ancient customs- ok yes, slavery was terrible- we all get that, but this whole getting MPs to apologise farce, amongst other things is complete BS!

It also angers me that their is a euro-centric bias towards the slavery story, that subtle 'its all the european's fault' vibe that is currently floating around. Slavery was rife before europe came along and was certainly not confined to the whites and the christians...a fact that all too often gets played down IMHO.


I could be wrong here but I also get the implicit feeling that the slavery issue is another song in the 'this why africa is still such a mess today, lets blame everybody else' songbook.

[Meneldil]

Slavery was rife before europe came along and was certainly not confined to the whites and the christians...a fact that all too often gets played down IMHO.

Who the hell care ? You have region A that is underdevelopped and starving, and you have region B that is the wealthiest place in the world.
It occurs that region B at some point has enslaved people from region A
==> surely region A issues must be caused by region B.

It's way easier to blame someone else for your issues than to think "Well, we might have screwed something here"*.
Couple that with the masochist and PC tendancy we are currently facing in Europe, it results in PM apologizing for things that happened centuries ago, or even worse, Parliement trying to pass a law that would define Slavery as a Crim against Humanity.

Then, we have people in Europe who also blame their neighbours for their current issues. Like "Oh dude, those pesky turks invaded us 500 years ago, it's all their fault" or "We would be Europa 1st power without the Russians/Germans that colonized us a while back", or even 'Our country is collapsing because the US/China/the EU/whatever are/is backstabing us"

* Though I don't deny that Europe is responsible for a part of what is happening in Africa today.

[Marshal Murat]

I don't see the Parliaments of Norway, Sweden, or Denmark apologizing for enslaving my Irish and Scottish relatives!
I don't see the Italians apologizing for enslaving my great-great.....relatives from Gaul...


It's happened, and unless there is slavery occurring today, then it doesn't matter.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You have region A that is underdevelopped and starving, and you have region B that is the wealthiest place in the world.
It occurs that region B at some point has enslaved people from region A
==> surely region A issues must be caused by region B.

And people from region A were the ones that started enslaving people from region A. They also enslaved people from region B. Meanwhile people in region B enslaved people from region B and bought slaves from region A. There was a time when Africa was the richest region on earth and they had slaves. Africa is poor because its people are poorly educated. You cant blame Africas problems on the slave trade of 200 years ago. If that were the case Jews should be poor since at one time they were all slaves and lord knows thats not the case.

[Brenus]

I will make the same remark than the one I did in another intervention. Most of us are more than happy to commemorate victories or events in which “participants are all dead”. I didn’t read in the org. comments as “they are all dead” in the commemoration (the two) of Trafalgar… All the English were proud to have won this battle which saved them to speak French and the world in general (heard at the radio, I am not kidding…). So, when it suits us, WE won, when not “they are all dead”. Don’t you think there is a little bit of hypocrisy in here?
I am not in favour of apologising for every thing, but I do thing a little bit of history could do good, even for the Africans themselves… And perhaps it will be the moment to tell that the Europeans were not the only slavers, but as well that slavery STILL exist and if your really believe it is a bad thing, what are we doing?
It exists in our streets, and in front of ours eyes, it is called prostitution. So let’s have a law, when somebody enslaves somebody else, sell her or him, he/her will be considered as a criminal against humanity and received automatically life sentence… That will be something.
All other things (apologises) are just BS. And that is an insult to the bull’s production which is very useful as fertiliser…

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It exists in our streets, and in front of ours eyes, it is called prostitution

Thats not slavery and it should be legal.

[Brenus]

“That’s not slavery and it should be legal.” That is slavery if the girl or the man is forced to do it, marked and punished if/when he/she refused. That is slavery if they don’t get the money they earn in doing the job. When a 15 years old Ukrainian is put in the street and receives death menaces (and even against her own family) I can’t thing that is NOT slavery…
And yes, it should be legal: better controlled in sanitation meaning, taxes and policing.

[Incongruous]

Yeah, we brand and humiliate Prostitutes here.

[HoreTore]

The blame is on every single person who has been or are profiting from slaves. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Thats not slavery and it should be legal.

You have got to be kidding.

I suggest you look up people trafficking and the experiences of most of the sex workers across the world and then check the definition of slavery.

One of the biggest reasons why the "apology" issue is a problem is that slavery continues apace while we focus on a form of it that ended some time ago.

[Soulforged]

It exists...

So true. And that's what is funny about this two threads about slavery, they talk about it in past tense. When slavery was not a crime, but even a need we cannot attribute any guilt to slavers. But right now the existent slavery is illegal, is the right kind of slavery that we should talk about, it's a crime wich is commited daily, perpetuated by employers, smugglers, authorities, it might be happening close to your home and you don't even realize it, believe me it happened to me.

[HoreTore]

I don't see the Parliaments of Norway, Sweden, or Denmark apologizing for enslaving my Irish and Scottish relatives!
I don't see the Italians apologizing for enslaving my great-great.....relatives from Gaul...


It's happened, and unless there is slavery occurring today, then it doesn't matter.

Bah! They got to see the amazing fjords, isn't that enough?!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That is slavery if the girl or the man is forced to do it

Thats not prostitution

You have got to be kidding

Ive never been more serious

I suggest you look up people trafficking and the experiences of most of the sex workers across the world and then check the definition of slavery.

The same friggin excuse the government uses for making drugs illegal. Its the laws that cause the problems by putting an obscene profit on suchthings that causes the crime element in these things.

One of the biggest reasons why the "apology" issue is a problem is that slavery continues apace while we focus on a form of it that ended some time ago.

I bet it is still most prevelant in Africa Again should Italians apologise to the rest of Europe and N Africa?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Gah Double post

[Gawain of Orkeny]

wow triple post

[Marshal Murat]

Whoops!


The reason that Africa is poor is because the European colonizers did one of two things.
A)Dropped democracy on the people, when they weren't ready
B)Tried to begin democracy, but tribal divisions cut democracy apart.

[Slyspy]

Perhaps Gawain would prefer the word indentured rather than enslaved when talking about the sex trade?

I agree that protitution should be legal and, to get back on topic for a moment, that all the recent apologies for slavery in the past are utterly pointless.

[Yoyoma1910]

Don't forget:


C) Regularly assasinate elected leaders.

[HoreTore]

BTW, there are several other forms of slavery today than just the sex trade. You have the old agrarian slaves and "personal slaves"(servants, maids and such) as well. Not as common as the former though.

I have a neat report on the subject from Amnesty, unfortunately, it's in Norwegian....