Fallout 3 discussion [Archive]

econ21

04-24-2007, 22:26

I'd appreciate it if people would warn me if they aren't likely to work on a modern PC, ...

I play those games on a modern computer - I've not found a problem. There was an issue about FO2 having the kids taken out, breaking some quests(there was a panic about being able to shoot kids - not that you ever have a reason to do so in the game). There's a user made patch to put them back in. I think I've had to download and use that.

The games have aged very well IMO - I find the graphics and gameplay etc perfectly acceptable.

...or if those who know my gaming tastes think I'm not going to like them.

I suspect you'll like it. The closest comparator for me is the BG series. It is the same basic idea: create a massive gameworld, populate it with interesting sidequests, have a slow burning epic main plot. Obviously, the setting's different: it is darker in tone, perhaps similar to PST in that respect. I found it more compelling and immersive than BG. The character creation system (SPECIAL) is perhaps the best of any role-playing game I've played. The combat is less tactical - and much less frequent - than BG but provides such a visceral pleasure when it occurs that it left me wanting more.

In that case I'll be able to cancel the order with nothing lost.

Don't do that - best fiver you could spend on a gaming, IMO.

Be sure to play FO first, then FO2. FOT is a whole other thing - a squad level tactical combat game. It's ok, but Jagged Aliiance 2 does the same thing much better and above all, it always hurts that it is not FO3.

Rilder

04-24-2007, 23:04

Ladies and gentlemen,

FALLOUT 3 !!! (http://fallout.bethsoft.com/)

I think I'm gonna faint. :dizzy2:

Why does the guy on the right look like Hitler?

Fragony

04-25-2007, 10:18

The spoken dialogue in Oblivion is a joke. Three voice actors a believable world do not make. Pretty graphics a deep game do not make.

There is a lot wrong with Oblivion, mostly a lack of personality, but it does more right then it does wrong. Compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall it sure is an improvement, it's just not very compelling

Master_Thief

04-25-2007, 13:24

TinCow

04-25-2007, 13:28

Spino

04-25-2007, 15:25

<Cue intro video>

Maaaaayyyyyyybeeeeeeee you'll think of me
When you are aall aloooooone...

:thumbsup:

Frankly I don't see why so many people have it in for Oblivion. I understand why the voice acting is irritating, but really its still a massive leap in the right direction. Hopefully fallout 3 will be take all of the best innovations of TES and then improve the bits that didn't work so well. I've never played any of the previous fallout games, but this has got me very interested.

Well so long as games allow you to read subtitles in addition to the spoken dialogue I have no problem with it. The idea that a fully fleshed out 3D world has to grind to a halt just so you can read a slew of text in a window puts a serious damper on a game's immersiveness. I thought Morrowind was terrible in that regard and I'm so glad they changed things for Oblivion.

Bioware's Mass Effect looks to put a brand new spin on dialogue trees, you can actually participate in the middle of a conversation between two npcs. They even allow players to participate in cutscenes so they keep the flow of interaction going. That's much better than the usual fare where you butt in and chat npcs up or have to sit through a non-interactive cutscene. I can't wait for the eventual port to PCs.

Spino

04-25-2007, 15:58

Frankly I don't see why so many people have it in for Oblivion. I understand why the voice acting is irritating, but really its still a massive leap in the right direction. Hopefully fallout 3 will be take all of the best innovations of TES and then improve the bits that didn't work so well. I've never played any of the previous fallout games, but this has got me very interested.

I think most rpg fans that had it out for Oblivion were very frustrated with the fps style gameplay. Hardcore RPGers and FPSers are two entirely different beasts. It's one thing to require you to engage a monster letting your skills and stats do the work while you sit back and watch (unless you're a caster), another thing entirely to expect you to engage in half fast melee combat that consists entirely of silly swings, thrusts and blocks, none of which look or feel particularly 'real'.

Personally I could take either Blizzard's approach to combat in WoW or Bioware's approach in KOTOR.

In WoW all that is required of the player is placement, leaving you free to pick and choose which attacks or spells; basically you're alleviated of the minutae of melee combat and are free to pursue your favorite tactics. It's not completely static but even with melee characters running around like mad casters can still kick ass. Critics of this gameplay design prefer to call it 'button mashing' but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

KOTOR's system might work really well for FO3 and keep hardcore rpg'ers happy while entertaining the fps or console crowd; realtime fps movement up until the point where combat is initiated and then a turn based system takes over.

LeftEyeNine

04-25-2007, 16:48

One of my friends at Bethesda is annoyed with the voice-acting requirement as well, but apparently it's mandated by the publisher. From now on, all dialog must be voiced in all games, so I would expect the same in Fallout 3. He said that in Oblivion, they tried to expand the lore that was lost by doing this by increasing the number of in-game books. Perhaps something similar will be done for Fallout.

What goes around in Fallout forums is that Fallout fans (I can count myself one) want voice-acting rather than reading.

Above this, I'd never buy a Fallout without Ron Perlman's intro speech.

War...War never changes. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AihKA_AgMok)

Man, nothing can be more spectacular. That's a masterpiece.

LeftEyeNine

04-25-2007, 19:53

As much as it seems this thread is turning off topic, I just can't help associating my favorite game with Satchmo, after all it was how I had met my "grandpa".

A Kiss To Build A Dream On (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_5jYrZ0dMc) from Stockholm 1962. Music can't be any better. It couldn't be any better choice for such a game as Fallout.

frogbeastegg

04-25-2007, 20:03

I play those games on a modern computer - I've not found a problem. [...] I suspect you'll like it.
I shall let the order stand. Thanks :bow:

LeftEyeNine

04-25-2007, 21:08

I shall let the order stand. Thanks :bow:

Another one smells the dust. :balloon2:

econ21

04-25-2007, 21:30

I think most rpg fans that had it out for Oblivion were very frustrated with the fps style gameplay. Hardcore RPGers and FPSers are two entirely different beasts. It's one thing to require you to engage a monster letting your skills and stats do the work while you sit back and watch (unless you're a caster), another thing entirely to expect you to engage in half fast melee combat that consists entirely of silly swings, thrusts and blocks, none of which look or feel particularly 'real'.

But did that change between Morrowind and Oblivion? I thought that series had always been a bit "action" oriented, so that the player's manual dexterity mattered unlike the Kotor/NWN type game where it was just the character's stats. I think the particular dislike expressed for Oblivion comes from disaffected Morrowind fans who have a number of grievances, notably the scaling of monsters and loot to your level. (I disagree with them on that, but then I was never a Morrowind fan).

I am definitely an RPG fan and am pretty useless at FPS games, but I thought Oblivion pulled off the combat really well. To me, it does look and feel 'real'. It is less hectic and feels more authentic than the comparable combat in Morrowind and, dare I say it, Mount and Blade. (Mount & Blade does some things very well - the archery and the riding - but suffers when you melee more than one enemy at a time and their frenzied attacks mean you are almost inevitably overpowered, being constantly knocked back.)

Whacker

04-26-2007, 01:53

But did that change between Morrowind and Oblivion? I thought that series had always been a bit "action" oriented, so that the player's manual dexterity mattered unlike the Kotor/NWN type game where it was just the character's stats. I think the particular dislike expressed for Oblivion comes from disaffected Morrowind fans who have a number of grievances, notably the scaling of monsters and loot to your level. (I disagree with them on that, but then I was never a Morrowind fan).

Disclaimer: I came to the TES series with Morrowind, after it had been through a few patches.

Personally, I saw a pretty significant shift in gameplay from Morrowind to Oblivion. Stats/traits/whatever meant far less in Oblivion than Morrowind, and the game felt much, much more shallow, repetitive, and meaningless. There were a number of things that killed Oblivion for me, almost too numerous to mention. Some of them are the monster/loot scaling which I abhor, lack of immersion/story/branching dialogues, lack of mutually exclusive quests/missions, the complete voice acting that was terribly implemented and extremely game limiting, "Radiant AI" which was decidedly obnoxious and unimpressive, extremely repetitive scenery and landscapes, utterly nerfed magicka, silly influence games, horribly broken stock interface (thank god for mods), etc etc etc...

Honestly I went through a phase where I liked it from the start, slowly got displeased with it, then went to hating it, now I can accept and play it again. Why? Because I realized it's not an RPG, or even a so-called "action RPG". It's a FPS with swords and magic. Bethesda in their arrogance repeatedly tried to market it as a real modern cRPG, "pushing the boundaries of role-playing", soil erosion etc, and all that nonsense and hype. They utterly failed at making a real cRPG, but they did make a fun FPS if you look at it that way. For those who say it is an RPG, I can make any dumb shooter and slap a few stats on it, a bad story and call it an RPG, but at the end of the day it's not. The term "RPG" is one of those that's been sorely abused and misused over the past few years by the gaming industry.

I am definitely an RPG fan and am pretty useless at FPS games, but I thought Oblivion pulled off the combat really well. To me, it does look and feel 'real'. It is less hectic and feels more authentic than the comparable combat in Morrowind and, dare I say it, Mount and Blade. (Mount & Blade does some things very well - the archery and the riding - but suffers when you melee more than one enemy at a time and their frenzied attacks mean you are almost inevitably overpowered, being constantly knocked back.)

I partially agree with this and disagree. Agree in that I did honestly like the combat system for the most part from Morrowind. There is SOME element to play skill and "twitch" gaming. The problem I have with it is that it really does remove the whole RPG aspect from the equation, and stats literally mean almost nothing. A low level player with horribly crappy equipment and extremely low skills/attribs can waste a pretty high level NPC with great gear and much higher stats, just because they are good at twitch style gaming. I went through the whole Arena at level 3 hardly breaking a sweat against the NPCs who were level scaled higher than me (ugh) with much better weapons. In Morrowind stats meant much much more, and you could get into deep poop real quick if you tackled something too hard off the bat. In Oblivion I never once had to worry about it, because I am pretty durn good at twitch style gaming, and because of how the system works I could kill stuff at will, and escape easily if I got in over my head. Morrowind I couldn't do that at all until much higher clvls, but then again one should be a god at later points in the game.

Cheers
:balloon2:

Whacker

04-26-2007, 02:15

Note - these are my personal opinions only.

Hmmm... I shall remain heavily skeptical about FO3 for the time being, given the new developer and the Fallout universe. I am not one of those "NMA freaks", but I do wholeheartedly agree with a number of their boilerplate statements. Fallout 1 and 2 are/were two of the best cRPGs we've ever had. Tactics was ok, I enjoyed it. I never played BoS but from what I've read and seen, I doubt I'd like it.

- cRPG. Fallout represents the very best of turn based computer RPGs. I do NOT want real time combat, it MUST be turn-based.

- SPECIAL. Morrowind/Oblivion style stats and skill increasing will absolutely not do here whatsoever.

- I do NOT want "Oblivion with guns". I do not want first person perspective at all. Don't really want behind locked 3rd person camera at all either. Isometric isn't required, in fact I could do away with this, as long as it's some kind of top down/non fixed camera. This ties in with turn-based.

- Branching dialogues/mutually exclusive decisions,quests/consequences. Sure there were kids in FO1/2, and you could certainly kill them if you wanted to be a sadistic bastard, BUT you had to accept the consequences. Your decisions and actions meant and had noticable effects in the game "universe", and you had to think careful about what you did. Also, there was not always a clear cut "good/neutral/evil" take on everything. Sometimes you had to do "evil" things to achieve a "good" end to tasks. Sometimes taking a neutral stance would end up having very negative ramifications down the road. For example, if you optimized the power plant at Gecko, Vault City would come in and take over, killing most of the ghouls. Something seeminly good or innocent had very bad results at the end.

Given Beth's comments in the distant and recent past, I'm rather worried. Beth has not had a very good history at all of listening to it's fans, as the Morrowind/Oblivion shift clearly shows. The fact that this is also being co-developed for the console worries me, as games like this do tend to get "dumbed down". I don't mean that last statement as a troll, but it is in some ways reality, if you look at cascading effects. Consoles as a rule must have a much simpler interface for the gamepads, this in turn will often eliminate many possiblities that can only be accomplished using a keyboard/mouse. Also, devs sometimes do a horribly crappy job with the interfaces between the platforms. Look at Oblivion out of the box (which the devs admitted was horrible on the PC) and Deus Ex 2.

As someone pointed out in a really good blog post, Fallout is one of those things that has become "larger than itself". The old guard and old fan-base are inextricably linked to the franchise, and they're angry at what's been done with it so far. Beth has a real pickle on their hands, because they could ignore that sizeable old guard, but they run the risk of tanking sales because of that, that even their hardcore fanboys won't be able to save them from. The fact that they "ignored" their fanbase that had survived the switch from Daggerfall to Morrowind when they released Oblivion also does not bode well in my view. Someone made a comment that I think has some honest truth in it, which is that Beth aimed (and succeeded) in making a "deep" FPS. I can't really elaborate on this without sounding a bit condescending so I'll stop, I hope people understood the intent of what I am repeating here.

Hopefully we will see some real information and news soon. Beth's silence so far hasn't done much to alay the fears, if anything it's probably added more fuel to the fire if the Beth FO3 forums are any indication.

Cheers all
:balloon2:

Lehesu

04-26-2007, 04:24

I have to agree with Whacker's sentiments towards the handlign of Oblvion. Again, I too entered TES with Morrowind, which I cherish to this day.

Xiahou

04-26-2007, 05:11

I hope for the best, but realistically, Fallout3 has such huge expectations that it will be nearly impossible to meet them. Still, I hope....

Whacker

04-26-2007, 07:01

I hope for the best, but realistically, Fallout3 has such huge expectations that it will be nearly impossible to meet them. Still, I hope....

OK, bear with me here a second.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

I definitely, absolutely think it's possible to make a worthy sequel to this game, giving it a "modern" spin AND staying true to what Fallout represents.

That said...

I wonder if Bethseda got into this "with a bone to pick", so to speak. Let's examine some ideas here, keep in mind that much of this is my conjecture backed up with a few facts.

First, look at what Bethesda has done over the years with their TES games. One could argue, very successfully IMO, that they're moving distinctly away from being RPGs to action games.

Second, I propose that with the 3 most recent iterations of the TES games, Beth has lost a very decent sized chunk of their original fanbase. I've done enough reading to realize that there was a decent backlash in the move from Daggerfall to Morrowind. In doing this move, they arguably alienated a number of their older fans, some of whom we can assume stopped buying games at that point. If we look at the transition from Morrowind to Oblivion, it's much more obvious due to the fact that this is a relatively recent event, that there was an even greater backlash from the then-existing fanbase. One only needs to browse the forums now and dig up old threads to see that there is a very sizeable group of disenchanted people.

Third, following in the above, Oblivion sold very well, all things considered. As of Jan 2007, apparently 3 million total sales including the console. Morrowind has sold apparently 4 million units (both console and PC) as of right now, BUT we have to take into account that MW is also almost 5 years old, and Oblivion isn't even 1 year old yet. Oblivion also sold 1.7 million units by April of '06, which is insane. Clearly Oblivion is pacing itself to outsell Morrowind by a good margin.

Fourth, one could further argue that Oblivion's runaway sales is due to them tailoring the game to a much wider audience than their original existing Daggerfall/Morrowind base. I have absolutely no data to back this up, I don't know what Morrowind's sales looked like around launch, nor could I find how well Daggerfall sold.

Here's my idea. If you can accept the above as reasonable, I propose that Bethesda picked up the Fallout franchise and plan to do the exact same thing with it that they did with Oblivion, and when it sells like hotcakes, that will "prove" to themselves and the world that one doesn't need existing fans (hence, they can ignore the old guard) and still be very commercially viable. This, coupled with I am willing to bet they are still kind of annoyed at a lot of the bad press and complaints (much from their existing fanbase) they've been getting since launch. So in short, this will be a major "in your face!" if they succeed.

So this is a giant stretch, and arguably not a business decision, but I can see something of one in there. It's more of a "proof of concept" that if you market to the larger audience, those sales will more than make up for losing existing customers. Hence why I think they knowingly bought this franchise, NMA and all, as there's some real possible value in demonstrating a development tactic with an old/existing franchise, one with an ANGRY fanbase at that.

OK this is a giant stretch, probably untrue (mostly). You can take off your tinfoil hats now. :grin:

:balloon2:

AntiochusIII

04-26-2007, 08:27

- SPECIAL. Morrowind/Oblivion style stats and skill increasing will absolutely not do here whatsoever.

- I do NOT want "Oblivion with guns". I do not want first person perspective at all. Don't really want behind locked 3rd person camera at all either. Isometric isn't required, in fact I could do away with this, as long as it's some kind of top down/non fixed camera. This ties in with turn-based.Two stupid questions:

What was special about S.P.E.C.I.A.L.? I never played the game, so I'm curious.

And, about the cameras, would you accept something like, say, NWN2's camera?

econ21

04-26-2007, 09:16

What was special about S.P.E.C.I.A.L.? I never played the game, so I'm curious.

SPECIAL had four elements:
- attributes (fixed at start, you allocated points across 7 stats - strength, intelligence, charisma, toughness, agility, perception, luck)
- traits (pick two at start - they have upsides and downsides)
- skills (put points in as you level, with more points if intelligent - eg. small guns, speech, lockpicking etc)
- perks (get one every 3 levels - e.g. night vision, sniper, rapid rate of fire etc)

One nice thing about the system was that it provided a lot of variety and potential for customisation.

Another nice thing was its balance - for example, of each of the six attributes, the manual says "of course, this is the most important" and it's almost true: all the stats matter (unlike DnD where a class cares about only 3 stats).

Together the variety and balance meant character design and levelling up involved interesting and rewarding choices. The fact that you could solve some quests with a variety of different skills (and not just whacking everything) added to this.

The perks were also very juicy - I guess they correspond to "feats" in DnD.

To be honest, I think the Morrowind/Oblivion system also has many of the above virtues and in many ways reminds me of SPECIAL. Both SPECIAL and the TES system beat D20/DnD for a sole protagonist (as opposed to party-based) game. The one thing I dislike about the Morrowind/Oblivion system is the way it encourages artificial play styles (switching weapons/armour, letting yourself getting whacked by mudcrabs etc) to get the 5x attribute bonus on level up.

Husar

04-26-2007, 10:48

What is this SPECIAL you're talking about?
Entering "SPECIAL", even with other words like game or RPG doesn't seem to give me any results, it sounds like a mix of JA2, Lionheart and Silent Storm so I'm curious.

And btw, I never played any Fallout and never bought or played Oblivion, mainly because of the level scaling.

econ21

04-26-2007, 11:31

What is this SPECIAL you're talking about?

It's just the system for character creation and levelling in the Fallout games. I am not sure I can explain it any more than I have done in my previous post. You can read some of the guides on gamefaqs if you want to know more. Better still, follow froggy and buy the Fallout games - SPECIAL is one of one of their standout features.

[QUOTE], it sounds like a mix of JA2, Lionheart and Silent Storm so I'm curious.

I have a vague memory that Lionheart used a variant of the SPECIAL system, but I never played the game.

Ser Clegane

04-26-2007, 12:18

Hmm ... I still have Fallout 1+2 around somewhere - both where part of a game compilation I bought a couple of years ago - but I somehow never found the time to go beyond installing them and having a quick look.

Perhaps I should finally take the time and actually go a bit deeper :thinking:

TinCow

04-26-2007, 12:22

So this is a giant stretch, and arguably not a business decision, but I can see something of one in there. It's more of a "proof of concept" that if you market to the larger audience, those sales will more than make up for losing existing customers. Hence why I think they knowingly bought this franchise, NMA and all, as there's some real possible value in demonstrating a development tactic with an old/existing franchise, one with an ANGRY fanbase at that.

I think you're right and wrong. Bethesda doesn't pay any attention at all to what goes on at NMA, RPG Codex, and similar places. Nothing constructive ever comes out of those sites, so there's little point in trying to address their complaints. Furthermore, they know there's no way they can please those people, so they're not trying. I don't think Bethesda is trying to prove anything to anyone. When it comes down to it, no matter how many complaints there may be about Oblivion, they're a really successful game developer at the moment. They don't need to prove anything, because they already have.

That said, I definitely agree that they're just doing their own thing with the Fallout franchise. They bought it, so it's their IP now and they can do whatever they want. They're definitely putting a lot of effort into creating a world that has the same style as the original games, but I don't think they're trying to recreate those games in actual play style. I personally have no problems with this and I'm interested to see what they come up with. The NMA people will probably say that there's no way to do a Fallout game without an isometric view and turn-based combat. I think that type of thinking is narrow minded, at best, and disastrous for the entire game industry, at worst. Games need to move and develop. People rarely want the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again. I have faith that Bethesda will move Fallout in a new and interesting direction. I could well be wrong, but I think those people that condemn them because they're not making a clone of the first two games are a bit selfish.

LeftEyeNine

04-26-2007, 14:20

econ21

04-26-2007, 14:26

Perhaps I should finally take the time and actually go a bit deeper.

Like a lot of classic RPGs, they are rather slow burners. FO2, for example, is possibly my favorite CRPG of all time, but I have to repetitively slaughter a lot of rats, scorpions and geckos before it really takes off. However, I find the atmosphere and world very immersive, and it does become very rewarding due to the epic scale - when the ending comes, and you see how your actions changed the fate of the places you have visited, it is strangely moving.

Spino

04-26-2007, 16:51

I would like to bring up another point and say that since the same people who made Oblivion will be working on FO3 there is a good chance it may be as moddable as Morrowind and Oblivion. There are some seriously cool and powerful mods for MW and OB, some of which dramatically improve gameplay. So even if FO3 is released and isn't quite as great as people expect I have faith modders will set things right.

But did that change between Morrowind and Oblivion? I thought that series had always been a bit "action" oriented, so that the player's manual dexterity mattered unlike the Kotor/NWN type game where it was just the character's stats. I think the particular dislike expressed for Oblivion comes from disaffected Morrowind fans who have a number of grievances, notably the scaling of monsters and loot to your level. (I disagree with them on that, but then I was never a Morrowind fan).

I am definitely an RPG fan and am pretty useless at FPS games, but I thought Oblivion pulled off the combat really well. To me, it does look and feel 'real'. It is less hectic and feels more authentic than the comparable combat in Morrowind and, dare I say it, Mount and Blade. (Mount & Blade does some things very well - the archery and the riding - but suffers when you melee more than one enemy at a time and their frenzied attacks mean you are almost inevitably overpowered, being constantly knocked back.)

Good points but per my previous paragraph, monster level scaling issues were quickly and easily resolved in MW and OB thanks to the incredibly powerful editors that shipped with the games and the efforts of countless ambitious modders. Of course modding means little to console gamers but screw 'em!

I love RPG and FPS games equally but am always wary when developers attempt to combine the two. Often the result is gameplay that is skewed heavily in favor of FPS skills, tactics and AI/gameplay exploits with stats and attributes having minimal effect on the outcome.

Realistic melee combat is very hard to model correctly in any game, let alone one that factors in stats and skills into the equation. Severance: Blade of Darkness and Rune are some of the most realistic FPS melee oriented games ever made but they were devoid of any RPG element. Even Mount and Blade fails to deliver the RPG element effectively. Melee combat is hard enough but when incorporated into a RPG it can be a bit much. If FO3 has as much depth as its predecessors then I'd much rather have combat resolved using round based combat like in KOTOR.

Whacker

04-26-2007, 17:06

What is this SPECIAL you're talking about?

Econ gave a great summary in his post. Here's a link to the wiki article on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECIAL_System

Perhaps I should finally take the time and actually go a bit deeper

The only thing I'll offer is that you should be in the proper frame of mind when you do so. These games are OLD, FO1 was considered graphically dated when it was first released in '97. It's not very pretty, but if you stick with it and keep a OPEN positive mindset, you'll start to get into the depth of story, the gritty and often hilarious settings, campy humor, outstanding turn based gameplay. Definitely RTFM to start with, and go through the walkthrough at the start to learn how the game works, I made that mistake and thrashed around for about half an hour trying to figure out the interface. If you stick with it though, you'll be rewarded with one of the best cRPG experiences you can ever have. Also, start with Fallout 1 before you do 2, not only because of story, but so you can see how the game itself progresses and eventually appreciate some of the improvements made with Fallout 2. Don't forget killap's fan-made patch for FO2 when you do get to it, it makes it playable, stock patched v1.02d (which was the last patch) was unplayable in my opinion due to scripting bugs.

Nothing constructive ever comes out of those sites, so there's little point in trying to address their complaints. Furthermore, they know there's no way they can please those people, so they're not trying.

Both of these statements are patently false. NMA is often poorly represented by a few very loud, rude, vocal individuals with severe bones to pick, if you read their forums you'll find that there are a good deal of well spoken, polite, yet dedicated individuals. Codex is similar but also very different as it's not dedicated or focused on anything in particular. It's entirely possible to "please" the old Fallout crowd in my view, it's just going to take some real work to do so and certain tenants must be adhered to.

I don't think Bethesda is trying to prove anything to anyone. When it comes down to it, no matter how many complaints there may be about Oblivion, they're a really successful game developer at the moment. They don't need to prove anything, because they already have.

Perhaps this is my fault for not elaborating enough. They certainly are successful if you use the definition of sales as the measuring stick. The issue is, is that their current product is not an RPG, which is mainly how they portrayed and marketed it as. If Beth wants to continue down the road they are with their games, that's certainly their perogative and they'll probably be highly successful, the issue that the RPG crowd has is that they aren't going to be making RPGs anymore and as such should stop trying to push them as such. I subscribe completely to this view.

but I don't think they're trying to recreate those games in actual play style. I personally have no problems with this and I'm interested to see what they come up with.

I both agree and disagre here. I agree in that I'd like to see a "fresh" look at the whole Fallout gameplay style. For example, doing away with the old hexes for positioning would open up a bunch of new possibilities as I see it. The problem is that certain tenants of what the series is about, stuff like what I said in earlier posts, must be adhered to in order to stay with the intent of what the series is. Of course it's possible to make a FPS or an RTS set in the Fallout universe, it would *not* be Fallout.

The NMA people will probably say that there's no way to do a Fallout game without an isometric view and turn-based combat.

Many of them do say isometric view is, but I could do without it. Any type of overhead cam, esp. an adjusable one, would be outstanding in my view. Turn-based combat is indeed absolutely integral.

I think that type of thinking is narrow minded, at best, and disastrous for the entire game industry, at worst. Games need to move and develop.

Sorry, but this is crap. "Real-time" does not equal better. "Twitch-based" does not equal better. "Developing" does not mean switching away from a proven, tried and true workable turn-based system that represents the core of whatever it is that's being worked on. There's something to be said for "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", and not making changes just for the sake of making changes, which given Beth's statements and arrogance is exactly what I fear they will do. This really annoys me when people equate "real-time" with new hotness and "turn-based" with old and busted.

People rarely want the same thing over, and over, and over, and over again.

So taking what I think the intent of your statement is here here, what exactly do you think you've been playing over the past umpteen years? Please don't tell me that "the TW games aren't the same thing over and over and over" because they are. Quake? Doom? Heh. Counter-strike 1 and Source? If anything those games prove that people DO play the same stuff over and over again and they lap it up like nectar.

I have faith that Bethesda will move Fallout in a new and interesting direction.

Sadly I agree that they'll take it in whatever direction they want. I think we both differ on what the definition of "interesting" is in this case.

I could well be wrong, but I think those people that condemn them because they're not making a clone of the first two games are a bit selfish.

I wouldn't call it selfish, but I agree it's uncalled for, nor do I think that the old guard is demanding a "clone". The thing that they want is to keep the few core tenants of what Fallout is and represents untarnished. That is, we want a real cRPG that plays like one, not an action oriented FPS.

TinCow

04-26-2007, 18:37

Perhaps this is my fault for not elaborating enough. They certainly are successful if you use the definition of sales as the measuring stick. The issue is, is that their current product is not an RPG, which is mainly how they portrayed and marketed it as. If Beth wants to continue down the road they are with their games, that's certainly their perogative and they'll probably be highly successful, the issue that the RPG crowd has is that they aren't going to be making RPGs anymore and as such should stop trying to push them as such. I subscribe completely to this view.

This is one of these fallacies put forward by people at RPG Codex: the notion that an RPG must give you the options to do whatever you want in a free universe. CRPGs are not pen and paper gaming. They probably never will be. You can scream to the heavens all you want that Diablo is not an RPG, but the majority of gamers won't agree with you on that. For whatever reason, the very definition of RPG has changed to mean a game where you can develop the stats/skills of the character over time. Anything that meets that requirement is deemed an RPG by the majority of gamers and by the industry. When it comes to definitions like this, majority rules. Bethesda properly promoted Oblivion as an RPG because by current standards, it is an RPG.

Sorry, but this is crap. "Real-time" does not equal better. "Twitch-based" does not equal better. "Developing" does not mean switching away from a proven, tried and true workable turn-based system that represents the core of whatever it is that's being worked on. There's something to be said for "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", and not making changes just for the sake of making changes, which given Beth's statements and arrogance is exactly what I fear they will do. This really annoys me when people equate "real-time" with new hotness and "turn-based" with old and busted.

I never said real-time was better. I've always been a huge turn-based strategy fan and I'm currently spending all my free time playing a classic style hex game. I don't understand how you got the idea that I dislike turn-based games. Sounds to me like you don't like my opinion and are seeing demons in my words.

So taking what I think the intent of your statement is here here, what exactly do you think you've been playing over the past umpteen years? Please don't tell me that "the TW games aren't the same thing over and over and over" because they are. Quake? Doom? Heh. Counter-strike 1 and Source? If anything those games prove that people DO play the same stuff over and over again and they lap it up like nectar.

I'm not saying things have to change every single year, no matter what. Change for the sake of being different isn't the point. It's about innovation and thinking of new ways of doing things that no one has done before. To a certain extent there are broad genres that encompass everything, but that doesn't mean that it's always been the same thing over and over again. Are all FPS shooters the same as Wolfenstein 3D? If you define them in a very broad sense, sure, but if you compare their actual entertainment and artistic value, most are very different from one another.

The Fallout engine (dunno the name of it) evolved into the Infinity engine, which most people would probably agree was better in every aspect. The Infinity engine itself evolved into the Aurora engine, which has turned out to be good for certain games, and bad for others (IMO). Does that mean that Jade Empire is the same game as Fallout? Not even close, but one is a direct descendant of the other. Change, be it big or small, keeps life interesting. It's rare for an entire genre to die (even Adventure gaming is still hanging on) and it's rare for a new genre to be born (RTS and MMO are the most recent additions I can think of, and even they are very old now). That doesn't mean that advancements can't be made within a genre though.

If a change is bad, the market will generally reject it and it will die. If a change is good, the market will generally embrace it and it will grow. It is a shame that sometimes the market won't like the same things we do as individuals, but that's not the fault of the companies that make the games.

LeftEyeNine

04-26-2007, 20:08

I read in the forums that F3 will be released for consoles as well.

Let me know please, if there are any games which didn't screw up after having console versions additionally. :embarassed:

I take console gaming industry more of action-packed, due to both controller limitations and the sole idea of consoles "easy & quick entertainment". So deciding to release a game's console versions thoroughly changes the production process of a game. And I fear such change may...Uuhh..I really don't want to imagine that. :toilet:

P.S. FM 2007 has been a disaster. Guess what, it's the first time the series was planned for consoles as well from the start.

Master_Thief

04-26-2007, 20:20

I can see why RPG fans would find the FPS gameplay of Oblivion not to their liking, however I would agree with Econ that the TES games have always been that style. For me they were perfect as I had played NWN and become gradually bored with watching the characters jump around and jab each other, whilst all I could do was cast the occasional spell. TES allowed me to really become immersed in an RPG for the first time (though NWN was stiil a good game), and Oblivion took that further with more satisfying combat, especially archery, better conversations and more varied quests. The addition of some truly original mods such as Cats and rats, natural environments and dwemer specatcles topped it all off. I seriously hope similar plugins are available for fallout 3.

Back on topic... Despite my love for FPS RPGs I still have the urge to check out the first two fallouts. Since i don't want to spend any money yet, I thought I would check out the demos. Does anybody know whether they are compatible with XP (n.b. I know froggy's queries have already been answered, but the demos are unlikely to have been upgraded, unlike the latest retail version)?

Edit: For some rersason I dodn't notice the numerous posts below Econ's when I posted this so its a bit of an out of date response. The question above still stands though. Also I do know of a pc/console game that is good: Thief Deadly Shadows. Despised by much of the Thief hardcore yet its what got me into the series in the frst place, and its still a damn fine game.

Ser Clegane

04-26-2007, 20:31

Hehe - you really made me dig out these CD-ROMs again, guys ~:) (thanks also for the tips, Whacker.

It seems that FO2 is running properly under XP however I do not have any sound for FO1 - apparently I have to manually configure my "soundcard" ... tried a lot of combinations without satisfying results ~:(
Any recommendations?

:bow:

TinCow

04-26-2007, 20:33

Let me know please, if there are any games which didn't screw up after having console versions additionally. :embarassed:[/SIZE]

Morrowind. It was released for PC and Xbox at the same time and didn't suffer (IMO) from the process. That said, Morrowind was clearly designed for the PC first and then ported to the console. Oblivion was designed for both console and PC at the same time, and I was very much annoyed with the size of the fonts and other such things which were clearly due to console compatibility.

PC games which get ported to consoles aren't really impacted at all but, like you, I definitely grit my teeth when I hear that a game I am looking forward to will be designed for both at the same time. Fortunately in Oblivion there were mods out within days that addressed the main problems I had with the residual 'consoleness' of the game. I would expect the same from Fallout 3.

Whacker

04-26-2007, 20:49

This is one of these fallacies put forward by people at RPG Codex: the notion that an RPG must give you the options to do whatever you want in a free universe. CRPGs are not pen and paper gaming. They probably never will be. You can scream to the heavens all you want that Diablo is not an RPG, but the majority of gamers won't agree with you on that. For whatever reason, the very definition of RPG has changed to mean a game where you can develop the stats/skills of the character over time. Anything that meets that requirement is deemed an RPG by the majority of gamers and by the industry. When it comes to definitions like this, majority rules. Bethesda properly promoted Oblivion as an RPG because by current standards, it is an RPG.

Again, this is where I submit that the term "RPG" is one of the most misused, bastardized, thrown-around terms in the game industry today. Stat/skill development does NOT define an RPG, it's much more than that, and that's the problem that we have. Pen and paper doesn't define an RPG either. In the same vein, 1 million angry twitch-style gamers who've never experienced a real RPG before screaming that Oblivion is an RPG, doesn't make it one. I suspect that this issue really boils down to being an impasse at some point.

I never said real-time was better. I've always been a huge turn-based strategy fan and I'm currently spending all my free time playing a classic style hex game. I don't understand how you got the idea that I dislike turn-based games. Sounds to me like you don't like my opinion and are seeing demons in my words.

Then that's simply my misinterpretation. I'm trying to read your statements, take them at their meaning and not try to assume too much based on the entirity of your post. I read thost particular statements to mean what I said earlier, that real-time = better, hence the "demons in your words."

For the record I wouldn't be opposed to something like the NWN/KOTOR "real time turn" system, but it'd need to have some significant changes to fully implement the SPECIAL system and combat mechanics. Honestly I think that'd be pretty awesome, BUT it would also be very easy to screw up completely.

I'm not saying things have to change every single year, no matter what. Change for the sake of being different isn't the point. It's about innovation and thinking of new ways of doing things that no one has done before. To a certain extent there are broad genres that encompass everything, but that doesn't mean that it's always been the same thing over and over again. Are all FPS shooters the same as Wolfenstein 3D? If you define them in a very broad sense, sure, but if you compare their actual entertainment and artistic value, most are very different from one another.

The Fallout engine (dunno the name of it) evolved into the Infinity engine, which most people would probably agree was better in every aspect. The Infinity engine itself evolved into the Aurora engine, which has turned out to be good for certain games, and bad for others (IMO). Does that mean that Jade Empire is the same game as Fallout? Not even close, but one is a direct descendant of the other. Change, be it big or small, keeps life interesting. It's rare for an entire genre to die (even Adventure gaming is still hanging on) and it's rare for a new genre to be born (RTS and MMO are the most recent additions I can think of, and even they are very old now). That doesn't mean that advancements can't be made within a genre though.

If a change is bad, the market will generally reject it and it will die. If a change is good, the market will generally embrace it and it will grow. It is a shame that sometimes the market won't like the same things we do as individuals, but that's not the fault of the companies that make the games.

OK, if I take THOSE statements you just made, I wholeheartedly agree. Change in the way of real innovation is always good, and needed for the industry and gaming to advance. The problem that I had, and how I was reading your previous statements and intent, was something along the lines of "huge/radical changes are needed for this to be successful and enjoyable", hence my disagreement. I'd LOVE to see this in gorgeous 3D, gritty atmosphere and all, with lifelike surround sound and another soundtrack that stays on my ipod forever.

My problem is again that I do not want to see this holiest of holies butchered by ignoring/removing the core elements of what it represents. A perfect example of what I fear is another Deus Ex. The original was and still is one of the best PC games that many of us have experienced, and is consistently in the top of the top-x game lists whenever another rag or site coughes them up. Compare that to it's sequel, which by all accounts failed miserably, which I submit was due to the developers losing sight of and failing to account for the core elements of what Deus Ex was and represented. That and I blame the Xbox... but that's another argument.

@ LEN

KOTOR1 stands out as an example of a game that was very well done on both PC and console. The console version played well, and the PC version had an excellent, tailored interface that worked exceptionally well, and the graphics scaled. The gameplay was done in such a way that it just felt right when I played it on the PC, and again when I tried it on my friends xbrick. In the same vein as above, Deus Ex 2, Thief 3, and Oblivion stand out as games that in my view (and in their dev's views in some cases) utterly failed at having effective controls and interfaces between the platforms, where it was clear to me that the console was heavily favored. Simple does not = better.

LeftEyeNine

04-26-2007, 21:28

Well F2 rarely causes any problems on XP however I have come across with black screen problems several times with F1. Just never leave for a game without your patches. For F1 (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=12) and F2 (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=category&cat_id=16) there. (Since I don't know which language version you have, I gave the category link. Download the ones saying "offical")

Ser Clegane

04-26-2007, 21:55

It seems that running the 1.1 patch in compability modus did the trick :beam:

Thanks a lot!

:bow:

frogbeastegg

04-26-2007, 22:04

Lionheart
Apologies for wandering off topic, but I've not seem anyone mention this game here before and it doesn't seem worth starting a new topic on it.

Did anyone play it? If so, how was it? Back when it was released I couldn't afford it and I had other games to play between exams. I have vague recollections of liking the demo. Much the same situation as Arcanum: of steamworks and magick obscura ended up in ~:(

Husar

04-26-2007, 22:27

Apologies for wandering off topic, but I've not seem anyone mention this game here before and it doesn't seem worth starting a new topic on it.

Did anyone play it? If so, how was it? Back when it was released I couldn't afford it and I had other games to play between exams. I have vague recollections of liking the demo. Much the same situation as Arcanum: of steamworks and magick obscura ended up in ~:(
I played it, most of it that is, I wasn't really overwhelmed though and stopped in the end because that part(don't want to spoil it) seemed almost impossible to do with my melee character.
Well, I got it with a gaming magazine and I actually wouldn't have paid a lot more for it, it felt a bit old and the gameplay, AI etc weren't really great either IMO.

econ21

04-26-2007, 22:55

I have vague recollections of liking the demo. Much the same situation as Arcanum: of steamworks and magick obscura ended up in ~:(

Not wanting to sound contrary, but I disliked the Lionheart demo so much I never got the game; the word of mouth was also abysmal. It was clearly repetitive hack n slash and not very good hack n slash. Arcanum, however, I still consider a flawed classic - the mournful music, unique atmosphere and wonderful courtly dialogue made up for its many flaws. I don't think Lionheart had any such virtues.

I've just realised: a lot of the Fallout team went to form Troika, who made Arcanum and Vampire Bloodlines. Vampire Bloodlines is pretty much exactly what I'd hope a first person real time Fallout 3 would be. Based on Morrowind/Oblivion, I can see Bethesda - on a good day - matching Bloodlines for atmosphere and combat (great and not so great respectively). But I don't see much sign of them being able to match the dialogue, sidequests and characters. However, I won't write them off as Morrowind/Oblivion are in many ways extraordinarily impressive games.

TinCow

04-26-2007, 23:18

I've just realised: a lot of the Fallout team went to form Troika, who made Arcanum and Vampire Bloodlines. Vampire Bloodlines is pretty much exactly what I'd hope a first person real time Fallout 3 would be. Based on Morrowind/Oblivion, I can see Bethesda - on a good day - matching Bloodlines for atmosphere and combat (great and not so great respectively). But I don't see much sign of them being able to match the dialogue, sidequests and characters. However, I won't write them off as Morrowind/Oblivion are in many ways extraordinarily impressive games.

Yeah, I was pretty bummed when Troika was dismantled. I was very impressed with the TOEE engine and was hoping to see a new wave of epic D&D games (ala Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Tormet) using the new engine. Ah well, at least those games make the Total War games look totally bug-free, by comparison! :laugh4:

frogbeastegg

04-27-2007, 17:19

I disliked the Lionheart demo so much I never got the game; the word of mouth was also abysmal. It was clearly repetitive hack n slash and not very good hack n slash. Arcanum, however, I still consider a flawed classic - the mournful music, unique atmosphere and wonderful courtly dialogue made up for its many flaws. I don't think Lionheart had any such virtues.
~:eek: We have very similar taste in RPGs, so I'm inclinded to doubt my memory here, especially with Hussar's comments thrown in. I must have been thinking about a different game demo. I've started a new topic (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1521329#post1521329) so I can stop hijacking this one.

hrvojej

04-29-2007, 01:24

I am also very skeptical about the FO3, for much of the reasons Whacker mentioned in that I do not like the direction that Bethesda is taking. I loved Daggerfall and Morrowind, but I quit playing Oblivion in less than two weeks and never looked back. Morrowind had less exploration and quests than Daggerfall, but there was an incentive to keep on playing so that you can improve your character and tackle the things that used to squish you earlier in the game. With monster scaling in Oblivion, that was gone too, and coupled with some other design decisions it all felt incredibly shallow. Why would I want to keep playing and leveling up if a) I could do whatever I want right from the beginning without much worry that I'll be involved in something I cannot handle, and b) if the same goblin cave feels just the same and takes just as much effort to go through on level 1 as it does on level 10? IMO, that's just saps all motivation and that feeling-good-about-myself feeling from the game, as there is basically no progress. The monsters and gear may look different, but there is no tangible difference to them whatsoever.

That said, I wouldn't mind if FO3 is a first-person game in a Fallout setting (though I cannot fathom why the turn-based tactical genre is all but dead these days). A good first-person post-apocalyptic RPG could be great fun if done right. I just don't have high hopes that it will have the depth and the RPG system to make it an immersive and enjoyable experience given the Bethesda's recent track record.

Also, sorry for sidetracking the thread a bit:
From some of the posts in this thread, I take it that somebody has made a mod to remove the level scaling of monsters/environment in Oblivion? If so, would somebody be so kind to direct me to it? I might give Oblivion another go if this was in fact fixed.

Whacker

04-29-2007, 07:54

I'll clarify one point. If they give us the ability to do stuff first person, I don't think I'd care one whit, features = good. BUT, combat should be turn-based, top-down.

hrvojej, I do agree, in that my concern for this comes mainly from it being developed by Bethesda. There are a lot of people who keep saying debate and speculation is pointless, I think much of that is coming from them announcing the game and not giving any details or information to go on whatsoever, probably part of the hype machine at work. As for some saying the comparison between Oblivion and FO3 isn't fair, it's completely fair. After all, Oblivion is Beth's cash cow, and the style of gameplay is arguably what sucked in a much larger fanbase than the last game, which is precisely what scares me. Further, other say that "complaining" or "whining" now before we have details is pointless, as someone else pointed out in their own forums, "Would you rather we wait until they're much farther along in the design phase and have decided on certain aspects of the game (mistakes, as they put it), or that we make some noise now in hopes that it is heard and taken into account, before the 'mistakes' have taken too much root and would be impossible to change at that point?", or something along those lines. That's essentially my view.

Slightly but not exactly offtopic, saw this link over at NMA earlier, thought it was pretty sweet. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-596257484400160571&q=Doom+3+Ground+Zero&hl=en

In many ways, that would be what I'd like to see FO3 evolve. Chunky gooey 3D goodness, pretty slick camera design, non-hex based pathing system... Combat seemed pretty rough but not too bad at all. Deformable/destructable environments = :2thumbsup:

Cheers
:balloon2:

frogbeastegg

05-01-2007, 19:50

My Fallout pack has arrived, and I've installed and tested Fallout 1. It works.

I have the Virgin White label Fallout collection; it's all on one DVD, and has no hint of whether it's already patched or not. Is there any way I can tell if I need the official patches?

So, anyone got any tips for a frog? Character creation, things to do, things not to do, easily missible quests/places/goodies ... anything?

econ21

05-01-2007, 20:59

Is there any way I can tell if I need the official patches?

I suspect you are fine. I got the white label CD collection and I think it had the patches on, but I did not need to install them or something strange like that (it's been a while).

So, anyone got any tips for a frog? Character creation, things to do, things not to do, easily missible quests/places/goodies ... anything?

The Fallouts are like the BGs in that there are lots of things that are potentially missable. The problem is that if you use an external reference to find them, you end up losing the wonder of discovery while exploring the game world. With these games, I'd be inclined to try to play them blind and indeed "role-play" them - act as if you were stuck in the wasteland, rather than try to max your stats/power etc. They are one of the few CRPGs where actually role-playing would not be ludicrous.

As with most RPGs, save often. You can hit a random encounter that can get you killed in one shot; you can get stuck for eternity behind an immovable NPC (one thing FO2 fixed); your computer can crash or hit some weird glitch. Be forgiving - it's worth persevering.

In terms of character creation, it is worth planning your perks like you would your feats in DnD or KOTOR. The really good stuff comes late but often has formiddable prerequisites you have to plan for.

With stats, arguably the two most important are intelligence - as it gives you skill points on each level up - and agility - as it gives you action points in the turn-based combat. Going for 9 or 10 in those stats would not be excessive and indeed may be the norm (for me anyway). The DnD standbys - strength and toughness - are actually lesser stats here, although a strength of 6 would help you carry stuff and maybe necessary for the good armour. Perception helps shooting - a 6 or 8 would be good. It's probably good not to go below 4 in any stat. Taking the gifted trait makes the point-buy system so much more forgiving and is the no brainer choice in character creation.

With skills, small guns is the dominant combat skill so probably should be tagged (the second no brainer). Speech is useful too - there's a lot of talking in Fallout and you will encounter situations where fighting is not really feasible.

You should keep an eye out for recruitable NPCs. Ian (a chap in black leather jacket and blue jeans) and Dogmeat (a mottley grey dog) tend to be the favorites. Don't expect them to live forever, though: like you, they can die with one shot, but unlike you, they are controlled by a rather basic AI.

hrvojej

05-01-2007, 21:04

... they are controlled by a rather basic AI.
Which is another thing that you'll likely have to be forgiving about. ~:) You cannot directly control your party members, so keep in mind that sometimes, especially in battles, they'll be more trouble than help. If you just accept it as a part of the game, it's fine, but don't expect to have the support of a well synched party of BG kind.

Bob the Insane

05-01-2007, 21:14

You should keep an eye out for recruitable NPCs. Ian (a chap in black leather jacket and blue jeans) and Dogmeat (a mottley grey dog) tend to be the favorites. Don't expect them to live forever, though: like you, they can die with one shot, but unlike you, they are controlled by a rather basic AI.

You can give them some instructions (talk to them when they are part of you party) such as weapon prefences, how close to stay to use and agression levels and such...

As I recall if you did a good job of equiping them things where not so bad...

Early battles with bandits can be a nightmare... always remember, running away is an option!! :2thumbsup:

Whacker

05-01-2007, 21:29

My Fallout pack has arrived, and I've installed and tested Fallout 1. It works.

Yay!!!

I have the Virgin White label Fallout collection; it's all on one DVD, and has no hint of whether it's already patched or not. Is there any way I can tell if I need the official patches?

When you fire it up and are at the main menu, check the rightmost bottom. Should faintly say "1.2".

So, anyone got any tips for a frog?

Always keep water handy so that the skin will avoid drying out and dehydration. A good diet of insects should keep it happy, and keep the water fresh.

Character creation, things to do, things not to do, easily missible quests/places/goodies ... anything?

If your game isn't v1.2, I'd get the v1.2 patch first and install:

http://www.teamx.ru/cgi-bin/load.cgi?files/mods/fallup12w.rar

Next, get the "unofficial" fan patch that fixes a few more bugs, mainly script/map stuff.

http://www.teamx.ru/cgi-bin/load.cgi?files/mods/fallup13.rar

Install both in that order (if the first one's needed, second one def. will be) and you should be ready to rock.

Here's where this game shines. What do you want to do? Smooth talker? Long range death? Mindless brawler? The game is pretty straightforward on what the attributes do. The only thing in skills that had me confused for awhile was energy weapons vs. big guns, as there are some "big energy weapons", but it turns out these are governed only by the energy weapon skill. As for the two optional traits you can pick to start with, all I can really say is "gifted + skilled" is regarded as extremely cheap, as it makes your character a bit of a god.

Unless you want spoilers, here's some initial recommendations for your first game that I think most of us would agree to.

- Do NOT try your first game with a low INT char. It's hilarious if you eventually do try to do so (Wubba!), but don't try it first game. In fact I would not put any skill under 4 or 5 if you can help it. You sound like the type who knows how d20 RPGs work, SPECIAL really isn't all that much different so you should get the hang.

- Don't try to be a HtH brawler, tag small guns as one of your 3 primary skills. Small guns are the most common until late game, and getting this up there with a good gun like the sniper rifle will help you immensely.

- Skills that I personally do NOT recommend tagging: sneak, first aid, doctor, steal. Skills I wouldn't recommend datting unless they are directly relevant to your combat style: big guns, throwing, melee weapons. Reason is they are all useless/uncommon items, mostly unused in the game, or work decently even at low values. I say Big Guns, but one should always tag at least one type of weapon/combat IMO.

- With a high enough barter (110+), you can technically get stuff for free, in that the same item you are trading for, say a stimpack vs stimpack, your price will always be $100, the other persons can get as low as $50, so you can "clean them out". Some people don't like this, I think it's semi-legit.

- Talk to everyone.

- You WILL sometimes be forced into combat situations, even if you try playing a total pacifist. It's sorta possible to complete the game without killing anyone/anything, but I wouldn't recommend it first go.

- Follow the initial tutorial in the manual. You'll create a disposable char. Use that to get the hang of the interface. Shift runs, I didn't figure that out for about 2 hours. :wall:

- Remember, if you are out on the world map and click on your position triangle in the middle of nowhere, you'll come up in some randomly picked map. If you drop stuff here and leave, it will be gone forever.

- There's random stuff on the floors in many maps, and it can be REALLY hard to see some of them. I'll give you one spoiler up front to show you how big of a pain it is. When you finally do get to vault 15, on the 2nd sublevel, absolute bottom-left room, in the bathroom on the floor is a rifle. Good luck finding it. :yes:

My personal suggestions (my play style), some may disagree:

- Conserve ammo in the start. It'll become plentiful later on though. It's fun to box with the rats. :viking:Don't be shy about using it though, if the situation and the critters warrant.

- Steal everything that's not bolted down. Only reason not to do it is if you want to self-impose some kind of limitations or really "roleplay". Seriously this game should be named "Kleptomania" for me.

- Stash stuff you think you might need later in bookcases or other areas, nobody will take it and it won't disappear. There's a specific area/map in the game that I use as my own personal storage space where I keep literally just about everything.

There's also a few.......... "exploits" that you may end up figuring out. There's only one instance that I purposefully use them in normal gameplay, it's really up to you if you choose to use them or not. /shrug

Enjoy the game above all else. These truly are the best of the best, you'll see why we put them on the pedastels as examples for yourself now.

:balloon2:

Master_Thief

05-01-2007, 22:38

I got round to playing the FO1 demo last weekend. Overall i'm impressed by how well the graphics have held up over the years, and the atmosphere is spot on despite the lack of music in XP. However, what I was dissappointed with was the size of the area, which was called a city but consisted of two buildings each housing rival gangs that were barely 3 feet away, and the amount of combat. I tried to go about things relatively peacefuly but the result was always lots of guns firing, and me either being wasted straight away or, if I was lucky, hiding in a corner and taking out everyone else. I thought there was supposed to be more to the game than striding around with a chaingun blowing people to pieces. Please tell me thats the case!

Husar

05-01-2007, 22:48

As with most RPGs, save often. You can hit a random encounter that can get you killed in one shot; you can get stuck for eternity behind an immovable NPC (one thing FO2 fixed); your computer can crash or hit some weird glitch. Be forgiving - it's worth persevering.
And people say that games have more bugs today.:laugh4:

Nothing against Fallout, just something I was reminded of.~;)

econ21

05-01-2007, 23:47

I got round to playing the FO1 demo last weekend. ...I thought there was supposed to be more to the game than striding around with a chaingun blowing people to pieces. Please tell me thats the case!

It's a demo - IIRC you did not see a city. The full game is no Daggerfall or even Morrowind in scale, but it is big enough. FO2 is maybe twice as big. The demo is combat heavy and basically gives you a taste of what FO combat is like. I rather like it, in a Sin City over-the top kind of way. But for CRPGs, the full games are relatively combat light (especially FO1) - even compared to Baldur's Gate, let alone the hack n slash IWD type games. Indeed, I often wanted more combat. You can play for hours just talking to people and doing non-combat quests. But on balance, I think the balance of combat and other stuff is one of the game's main strengths - it really adds to the credibility and immersion of the world.

Master_Thief

05-02-2007, 13:01

Phew!!! That's a relief. I'm more thna happy to play a game with that kind of combat. In fact I think its probably the best system for top-down/isometric RPGs. But the level of violence in the demo really was overwhelming at times. Now all I need to do is wait until my exams are over, then crawl out of my vault of Fallout ignorance into an apocolyptic paradise. Thanks for introducing me to these games everyone.:2thumbsup:

TB666

05-02-2007, 20:09

Started playing FO2 for the first time.
Having huge trouble with money and staying alive.
Any tips for a newbie ??

Vladimir

05-02-2007, 20:24

Try to sell some deaders or steal some jink to get a few coppers.

TB666

05-02-2007, 20:42

well I haven't found much stuff to be quite frank.
All I have found is a few scorpion tails and a pair of claws, all which is already sold and I spent the money on healing powder.
After that I haven't found anything and nothing is dropping.
And I keep getting killed when I'm in the toxic caves looking for that chick's bf.
The spear isn't the best weapon around lol.

econ21

05-02-2007, 22:13

well I haven't found much stuff to be quite frank.
All I have found is a few scorpion tails and a pair of claws, all which is already sold and I spent the money on healing powder.

Weapons are scarce at this very early stage of the game. I would not spend money on healing powder - you know you can use the first aid and doctor skills to heal yourself? And you get XP for doing so. Not much good in combat, it's true but still - most combat areas you can flee from or pace yourself in. Stims, however, are worth hoarding - weigh nothing and very useful in tough fights.

And I keep getting killed when I'm in the toxic caves looking for that chick's bf.

If the problem is the radiation, avoid stepping in the green slime. Make sure you wear those rubber boots. Take Rad-X if you can find it to prevent radiation sickness.

The spear isn't the best weapon around lol.

The spear has a range 2, so it is not that bad early on. If the problem is the critters, be careful you exploit the turnbased system - especially in melee. For example, it's often best to let the critters come to you when they will be out of action points and so you get a few free hits. If you have a few APs left, it can be best to use them to run away, then the critter will follow you and may not have enough APs left to hit you.

You may have gone to the toxic caves too soon. If you do the quest to deal with the rats in the west part of Klamath, you will find a pistol which helps a lot dealing with the golden geckos in the toxic caves. Equally important - it will give you the XP to level up a few times, allowing you to put skill points in your combat skills. There's also a quest in Klamath where you are rewarded with the ability to skin geckos, giving you a little earner.

Having high combat skill helps accuracy a lot - once you get high enough, you can start going for the eyes and that makes things much easier. It's not hard to raise a combat skill or two to 100% early on in the game if you have tagged it and have high INT. Other skills can wait. There are diminishing returns to investing points in a given skill anyway, so often you can get one to 80 or 100 quickly, then pace yourself (you normally don't need more than 120 in anything).

TB666

05-02-2007, 22:42

It's the geckos that are the problem.
A single gecko is no problem but it's when they are 2 the real problem begins.
And no I haven't done the rat quest, haven't even seen it.
Only quest that I did in that town was guarding this guy's cattle.
But I will look for the rat quest.

econ21

05-02-2007, 23:10

There's a newstand outside the bar (Annie's bar?) that you first arrive at in Klamath. On it, you will find notices about half a dozen different quests. The toxic caves is the hardest. I'm not sure if the rat one is on it, but you can find it by wondering onto the map west of that one and asking around.

You are making me want to fire up that game again.

discovery1

05-02-2007, 23:42

There's also a quest in Klamath where you are rewarded with the ability to skin geckos, giving you a little earner.

that's the reward for rescueing the guy trapped in the gecko caves. Oh, and when you are a much higher level you want to go back to that cave.

And in fallout 2 doctor is a MUST. The perks you get from it are just too good to pass up, even for combat.

Leet Eriksson

05-02-2007, 23:57

Guys apparently NMA released the tech demo for Fallout 3 Van Buren, don't be too excited though, its a buggy peice of :furious3:

Though it works kinda, not much in it however :|

Eugh, i forgot the link, here it is:

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php?action=file&file_id=892

frogbeastegg

05-03-2007, 10:06

Loads of tips!
Thanks, exactly what I wanted.

The game is pre-patched. Which is nice. Possibly this edition has been slightly tweaked for modern computers, explaining why I have music and others here don't.

I must say the interface reeks. Too much clicking, and the result is not always what I wished for. I got killed by a mob in that first town because I looked at a bookcase instead of walking past it.

Unfortunately for me, Fallout is not as playable as it appeared; it's stuffed chock full of graphical glitches. My interface keeps disappearing for one, text is unreadable half the time for another. It's mildly unplayable. Any ideas?

Always keep water handy so that the skin will avoid drying out and dehydration. A good diet of insects should keep it happy, and keep the water fresh.
Lol! :gring:

EDIT: 150 days?! I rested to heal after one fight with a scorpion I found in a random encounter, and it took 9 days! There had better not be much to do before that timelimit is removed; I like to take my time in these games.

Crandaeolon

05-03-2007, 13:36

Unfortunately for me, Fallout is not as playable as it appeared; it's stuffed chock full of graphical glitches. My interface keeps disappearing for one, text is unreadable half the time for another. It's mildly unplayable. Any ideas?

Hmm. Works fine for me - did you try Win98 compatibility mode? It sometimes helps with older games.

150 days?! I rested to heal after one fight with a scorpion I found in a random encounter, and it took 9 days! There had better not be much to do before that timelimit is removed; I like to take my time in these games.

Without spoiling much, you can extend the time limit quite easily by 100 days. The time limit can be removed completely as well, but that is near endgame anyways.

Character creation tips:

Gifted is a must-have Trait. Drugs are great in tough spots, so Chem Resistant is another good one to pick - halved effect time is no biggie but avoiding addiction is very useful. Small Frame is so-and-so. Other Traits do generally more harm than good, with maybe the exception of Fast Shot, and whatever you do, don't pick Skilled.

Bonus Rate of Fire @ level 9: 7 Agi, 6 Int, 4 Per. Hitting requirements should be no problem.

Toughness is another good perk. 6 Str, 6 Lck. Harder to hit reqs with traditional agi-int characters, but damage resistance on top of armour is nothing to sneer at.

Going for Sniper is probably not smart in Fallout 1; it's 8 Per, 8 Agi @ level 18. Should be rather easy to attain in Fallout 2 though.

XP and skill-boosting perks are generally rubbish.

Drugs can be used prior to leveling to reach Perk requirements.

TinCow

05-03-2007, 13:50

You are making me want to fire up that game again.

Yeah, no kidding. Ever since this thread started I've been resisting the urge to reinstall FO2.

econ21

05-03-2007, 14:19

Other Traits do generally more harm than good...

I liked Good natured - you gain a lot of pluses that you will use and whereas most of the minuses will be in combat skills you won't use. Tagging your preferred combat skill(s) makes it very easy to offset the one or two minuses you do care about.

frogbeastegg

05-03-2007, 14:43

:confused: It grows weirder. If I alt-tab it will bring back my vanished interface, so I've managed to get a bit further. However I think some of the quest resolutions are not saving/registering correctly. For example
I took down Gizmo. I had the tape recorder in my inventory while I talked him into hiring me to be his new assassin. I then took the evidence to the guard near the gate. He asked me to join the raid on Gizmo. I did, and killed the fat lardy lump with the aid of the guards. I got XP and stuff, and the guard congratulated me on some good work. Next time I talked to him the guard had changed his tune. Now I'm a murderer because I took Gizmo down without evidence and in an illegal way, and had better leave town.
Gah! The quest has now reappeared in my quest log as incomplete.

Other quests are refusing to advance at all. The "take down the Skullz" quest won't budge; I think I've done what I should, and checked a walkthrough in my desperation to get an idea of whether all is working correctly or not. According to the two guides I checked I have done the right things for the quest to advance. I'm not being offered the necessary dialogue options.

I've got a nice level 4 character and I was beginning to enjoy myself. :wall:

TinCow

05-03-2007, 14:45

Sounds like you've got a very bugged game. Did you install any player-made patches or did you just stick with what was on the install disc? IIRC, FO2 was borderline unplayable until fans fixed a lot of the bugs 'unofficially.'

frogbeastegg

05-03-2007, 14:52

The game installs itself as version 1.2. I haven't added anything to it, no player patches and no attempt at installing a seperate official patch.

The absolute worst thing here is that I was beginning to like the game!

(Mind you, I do like being able to alt+tab in and out of it without load times, game glitches, or my PC slowing down a bit because of the game occupying a large memory footprint. Less keen on needing to alt+tab out of it every other minute though.)

discovery1

05-03-2007, 19:17

Yeah, Fallout is very buggy. Its worth it though. For the kill Gizmo quest, as far as I know you always take the evidence to the guy who owns the store(Killwater?). He then sends you to the guard.

The break up the skullz is as I recall tricky(they are the gang at the back of the hotel right?). You have to choose the right dialogue paths and even the slighest misstep screws you over. And you probably need the right stats to get them, since as I recall you have to talk your way into their gang.

Crandaeolon

05-03-2007, 20:41

Quests, particularly dialog-oriented ones, sometimes require right attributes to complete. Mentats can help with these.

Occasionally the quests are also time-dependant, meaning that you have to wait a specific time (day, night etc.) or simply enough time to pass for something to happen.

I liked Good natured - you gain a lot of pluses that you will use and whereas most of the minuses will be in combat skills you won't use. Tagging your preferred combat skill(s) makes it very easy to offset the one or two minuses you do care about.

Yeah, Good Natured is okay. Still, you'll benefit a lot from high combat skills and yet can get by with around 70% for most other skills.

econ21

05-03-2007, 21:00

According to the two guides I checked I have done the right things for the quest to advance.

Were these the two you checked?

Per Jorner's nearly ultimate guide to Fallout:

http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout.html

and Steve's Guide to Fallout:

http://www.the-spoiler.com/RPG/Interplay/fallout.6/stevefo1.htm

I think they are the best two walkthroughs, IIRC. (I know I advised you not to let yourself get spoiled, but I confess I used walkthroughs a lot - I fear your experience is reminding me why).

Whacker

05-03-2007, 22:26

Frogness, you did the right things to advance/complete that question in particular, as the Galvanized Bovine suggested I also think your game is severely bugged. Best thing I can suggest is to uninstall the game, reinstall fresh, then install these two patches:

v1.2 http://www.teamx.ru/cgi-bin/load.cgi.../fallup12w.rar (http://www.teamx.ru/cgi-bin/load.cgi?files/mods/fallup12w.rar)

v1.3 "unofficial" http://www.teamx.ru/cgi-bin/load.cgi...s/fallup13.rar (http://www.teamx.ru/cgi-bin/load.cgi?files/mods/fallup13.rar)

I know your game says v1.2, but I found that when I installed FO2 from my DVD (I think we have the same thing, white label), it said it was patched but it really wasn't, so I suggest you manually install both of the above no matter what.

As to your graphics issues, that's hit and miss as far as I can tell. I have an AMD/Nvidia 6800/XP Pro SP2 machine and it's always worked fine for me, no matter what. People with ATI cards have reported problems. Give this a read here, might help you out: http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5061

Good luck!

frogbeastegg

05-03-2007, 22:28

Gah! Shortly after that last post the game made my money vanish. All of it. With no warning. ~:mecry I had a save game 15 minutes before that (I'm saving in multiple slots obsessively) but now I'm paranoid about it happening again.

I'd done the Gizmo quest in the right order, and had it completed. There didn't seem to be any time or stat requirements, or if there were then my character passed them. For some reason it reactivated with a bad ending when I spoke to the guard again to see if I could get anything about the Skullz gang.

I checked some guides on gamefaqs. There's quite a few fallout guides there.

I'm getting on better with some of the interface (more a case of getting used to the pain than liking it) but buying expensive items is enough to make me want to quit! Surely the developers included an easier way to pay for very expensive stuff?! Clicking on your money, selecting "all" and clicking "done" over and over to add 999 caps to the table is not at all fun.

How do you do these focused shots I keep seeing people talking about? The PDF manual is not easy to find specific subtopics in.

I stopped playing earlier this afternoon with a strong level 4 character in the Hub area. None (I forgot to enter a name; the game didn't prompt for one) has combat armour and a sniper rifle, and skill book pumped small gun and healing skills (hehe, I discovered how easy it is to gain massive piles of money at gambling, though my skill is only 57%). He has a dog and Ian following him. So far he's (I was going to play female; I forgot to make the switch. D'oh!) succeeded in every quest he's tried, having passed through Vault 15, Sandsomething, Junktown and part of the Hub, collecting every quest he can along the way. None is finding life easy, perhaps too easy, and he isn't an uber build character.

Um, I do wonder if I'll go back to it. :hides behind the ramparts of Castle Froggy, pulls up the drawbridge and releases the sharks into the moat: While it became enjoyable between bugs, it isn't anything special. I know it is old and later RPGs took lessons from it, but that doesn't help the fact I've done this kind of thing many times before, and with better interfaces, less bugs, better graphics and atmosphere, and more gameplay possiblities (proper parties!).

Is there something worth slogging on through all the blackscreening and vanishing interfaces, bugs, that interface for? If not I might skip to the second game.

EDIT in light of Whacker's post: Question transformed into, is it worth the hassle of reinstalling the game and fiddling about with windows settings I'd rather leave as they are since I'll inevitably forget I need to put them back. I'd probably do best to start a new character as well, losing an entire day's play ~:(

I've got a Nvidia card :cough: BFG geforce 8800GTS 640MB :cough: with an intel Core2Duo E6600 and 2GB DDR2 corsair XMS2 RAM. For a game like Fallout it's so far past overkill that a new term is needed. (EDIT again to remove the embarrassed smiley. Why am I embarrased!? I built it myself and I'm damned proud of the shiny black frog machine of 1337 mad speed :tongueg:)

Crandaeolon

05-03-2007, 22:49

I agree that the abundant equipment and resources in Fallout(s) is something of a flaw; the post-apocalyptic survival feeling is quite not there. There aren't many alternatives in the RPG genre however.

Stalker has plentiful equipment too, but at least the weight limit and deteriorating weapons & armour are restrictive enough to force some hard choices. Still, it's more of an FPS game with no real character development.

econ21

05-03-2007, 23:08

How do you do these focused shots I keep seeing people talking about?

IIRC, on the bottom of your screen, on the central panel with the picture of your current weapon on it, there should be a small dot on lower right corner. Click that and it will increase the AP requirement to fire the gun by one. When you try to fire, you should get a green on black diagram of the target's anatomy and be able to choose which part to target. There is one trait (fast shot?) that prevents you making any such targeted shots - you won't get the option to click the dot on the weapon panel.

Is there something worth slogging on through all the blackscreening and vanishing interfaces, bugs, that interface for? If not I might skip to the second game.

Given your tech problems, I'd be tempted to see if you can play FO2 without those hassles. But then I came to FO after FO2 and always preferred the sequel.

I fear you may not like either game much - you've experienced a fair amount of the game (the second is really just more of the same) and if it has not hooked you yet, it may never do.

TinCow

05-04-2007, 14:27

I gave in and reinstalled. There are few things in RPGs more pleasurable than blowing away a rat after you finally get your hands on a gun.

Bob the Insane

05-04-2007, 19:55

oh... now you have all done it... First I started checking to see if I still have the disks... I can't find them... Next thing I know I am on Amazon!!! Well I caught myself in time and went back to newer shiny games... Don't know how much longer I can hold out though! :dizzy2:

Big King Sanctaphrax

05-04-2007, 23:31

After reading this thread I went and ordered the same triple pack that Froggy got of Amazon. I've only watched the intro as of yet-alt-tabbed back to the .Org to look at the character creation tips-but if the rest of the game is as well done as this intro it's going to be pretty bloody good.

Bob the Insane

05-04-2007, 23:40

Fine, went to Amazon and ordered it... :help:

Yes I am weak, but it is still your fault... All of you!! :laugh4:

Whacker

05-05-2007, 02:32

Fair warning guys. I have that white label myself, and my DVD has some bad spots on it. My critter.dat and master.dat files for FO2 are on bad/unreadable spots on the disc, and I was never able to return the DVD from the place I bought it from or the white label place. I was able to make myself a copy of my dvd by copying over some old good copies of those two files so it's not a total loss. Just beware.

Phatose

05-05-2007, 04:14

General FO2 tips:

Tag small guns, invest heavily in it. As in 160% minimum, 200% even better - unlike in the first one, small guns can reliably make you a killing machine through the entire game. Higher stats make precision shots easier, and you should be shooting for the eyes. All the time.

Take the gifted attribute. The skill point loss is more then offset by 6 extra stat points.

It might be a good idea to get 10 agility. 10 AP is an excellent thing to have early on, simply because it lets you make 2 aimed shots with a fast weapon (the .44 revolver -> P90c -> Gauss pistol.

Eventually take the faster ROF perk and switch to a gauss rifle.

Better crits is a definite 'must have' perk for a sharpshooter.

As for FO3....well, considering the wildly innappropriate music on the teaser page for the teaser, and my overall disillussionment with Oblivion and downright disgust with Morrowind, I'm expecting them to butcher it. Could be wrong, sure, but as of now, I'd bet on butchery.

frogbeastegg

05-06-2007, 18:07

I'll be trying Fallout 2 tonight.

econ21

05-06-2007, 20:35

I gave in and reinstalled. There are few things in RPGs more pleasurable than blowing away a rat after you finally get your hands on a gun.

I'll be trying Fallout 2 tonight.

I've weakened and started playing FO2 again. Just got to level one.

What kind of character are people playing?

Mine is:

St: 5
Pe: 8
En: 4
In: 10
Ag: 10
Ch: 6
Lk: 4

Gifted, good natured.
Tagged small guns, speech and lockpick.

[Heavily influenced by Per Jorner's FAQ, I confess.]

Getting through the Temple of Trials with 22% to hit was painful, but I was pleased to find I could talk my way out of the last stage.

TinCow

05-07-2007, 12:14

Getting through the Temple of Trials with 22% to hit was painful, but I was pleased to find I could talk my way out of the last stage.

With high action points (which you have) you can do it almost without getting hurt. Simply do not attack more than once per turn and then use the left over action points to move away. The ants and scorpions will use up all their action points following you, so they won't be able to attack. Then whack them again and move away. Repeat until they're all done. Using this method, I was able to complete it and only got hit twice.

econ21

05-07-2007, 13:42

With high action points (which you have) you can do it almost without getting hurt. Simply do not attack more than once per turn and then use the left over action points to move away.

I know: that's why it was painful, it takes so long! (And is such boring, cheesy gameplay).

Fixing the still early was even more agonising. At one stage, I had 10 simultaneously geckos on my tail and 9HPs. I don't know what was worse, watching my 16% to hit a golden gecko attacks fail or waiting for the 10 geckos to move. In the end, I invested all my accumulated skill points into unarmed to get it to 99%, as I could not bear it anymore.

I'm starting to think, like froggy, may be this was great in its day, but times have moved on. If I want a blast of a familiar immersive CRPG, I may be better off with System Shock 2 or Vampire Bloodlines.

Bob the Insane

05-07-2007, 17:39

I'm starting to think, like froggy, may be this was great in its day, but times have moved on. If I want a blast of a familiar immersive CRPG, I may be better off with System Shock 2 or Vampire Bloodlines.

It is the reason I am not getting over excited by the concept of Fallout 3 being "different" from the first to outings... So much new stuff has come along in game design that I would't expect it...

Look at Jagged Alliance 2, great game... But when trying to build new 3d versions of the same thing "Brigade E5" it just does not come out right...

Then look at the success moves to 3D, GTA being a glowing example...

I could absolutely live with a game not unlike Stalker but of a large scale and with the whole Fallout mood and theme...

Whacker

05-07-2007, 18:07

I'm starting to think, like froggy, may be this was great in its day, but times have moved on. If I want a blast of a familiar immersive CRPG, I may be better off with System Shock 2 or Vampire Bloodlines.

Urg. You've got a great point, sometimes it can be... well, painful to go back and play some of the ancient games, in all their cheesy 320x200 software mode goodness. There's something to be said for if you go back to play an old favorite, and it is more of a burden or pain to play it, then let it go and remember it for being as fun as it was.

On a side note econ, it's possible to get a near full attrib char in FO2. There's a good read on Gamefaqs about this, but my current FO2 char's stats are all 10, except for endurance which is 4 (useless skill).

I could absolutely live with a game not unlike Stalker but of a large scale and with the whole Fallout mood and theme...

Ugh, not first person. I could absolutely live with something like what was implemented in that tech demo for that Doom3 mod I posted earlier, that includes the ability to perhaps do something first-person-ish, but NOT a full first or behind 3rd-person game.

frogbeastegg

05-07-2007, 20:20

What kind of character are people playing?
ST 4
PE 6
EN 6
CH 7
IN 9
AG 10
LLK 5

Gifted, Small Guns, Speech, and something else.

I started the game up, got to the first bit where you can control your character, stared at the screen a bit, then cleared off to do some reading. When I finished that book I toyed with the idea of playing, and picked up a second book instead. On completing that book I went to sleep. Maybe tomorrow.

Spino

05-07-2007, 22:43

ST 4
PE 6
EN 6
CH 7
IN 9
AG 10
LLK 5

Gifted, Small Guns, Speech, and something else.

I started the game up, got to the first bit where you can control your character, stared at the screen a bit, then cleared off to do some reading. When I finished that book I toyed with the idea of playing, and picked up a second book instead. On completing that book I went to sleep. Maybe tomorrow.

Ooooh, you really should get the Bloody Mess trait. The visual rewards are mind splatteringly good!

Phatose

05-07-2007, 23:17

You guys are cranking the combat animation speed to max, yes?

discovery1

05-07-2007, 23:20

Ooooh, you really should get the Bloody Mess trait. The visual rewards are mind splatteringly good!

Total waste. You get the messy kills with high enough skills in weapons the appropriate weapons anyway.

frogbeastegg

05-07-2007, 23:28

Ooooh, you really should get the Bloody Mess trait. The visual rewards are mind splatteringly good!
I took it in my aborted Fallout 1 game out of curiosity. Its main effect seemed to be scattering dead enemies' inventories all over the landscape so it was hard to find all my loot.

Truth be told, I'm completely apathetic about gore. As long as I can tell when damage is being done that's all I want.

TinCow

05-07-2007, 23:58

Despite Fallout's age, I still think it has some of the goriest death animations in any game I've ever played. The sounds that accompany them are also suitably visceral.

Whacker

05-08-2007, 00:53

Despite Fallout's age, I still think it has some of the goriest death animations in any game I've ever played. The sounds that accompany them are also suitably visceral.

The Lieutenant's death in FO1 was the best.

Spino

05-08-2007, 19:40

Total waste. You get the messy kills with high enough skills in weapons the appropriate weapons anyway.

Meh. The increased likelihood of seeing splattery goodness throughout the entire game makes it worth it. I rather enjoyed the chunky goodness a lowly 9mm SMG on burst mode could bring in the early game. It never failed to make me cackle like a fiend when chunkage occured, especially when the bad guys would talk trash during combat. Anyway taking Bloody Mess should not affect your ability to maximize damage & APs or take/avoid hits. By the end of both FO games my Sniper characters were cranking out 3 (or was it 4?) aimed shots per round into the eyeballs of enemies at long range with spectacular results. The great thing about FO1 & FO2 is that the developers allow for a great deal of wiggle room when it comes to tweaking your character's attributes, skills & traits.

By going the Sniper route and jacking up Perception & Dexterity, pouring skill points into rifles and energy weapons and taking any and all traits that increase Action Points (i.e. Action Boy) the second half or final third of FO1 and FO2 becomes a cakewalk, especially once you've gotten an uber sniper rifle or the souped up plasma rifle (Turbo Plasma rifle?) and some nice power armor. At the end of FO1 I was able to place aimed shots so effectively I left my 'get out of the way you pain in the a$$!' party behind on the top floor of the Master's bunker and was able to solo the rest of the complex with ease. Just make sure to open combat with max AP points whilst standing in a doorway and snipe away until the room is clear. Wash, rinse, repeat. Occasionally a well placed grenade or rocket directed into a crowded mob makes things interesting but most of the time aimed shots and the insane critical hits that followed did the job. Even if you miss there are always mutants who are more than willing to help your cause by becoming bullet sponges. In any given group of enemies there's always two or three who immediately rush your position to engage you in melee. These guys usually wind up getting chunked by their buddies who think firing a mini-gun at an enemy surrounded by allies is a wise tactical move.

discovery1

05-09-2007, 04:34

nyway taking Bloody Mess should not affect your ability to maximize damage & APs or take/avoid hits. By the end of both FO games my Sniper characters were cranking out 3 (or was it 4?) aimed shots per round into the eyeballs of enemies at long range with spectacular results.

And it keeps you from choosing a perk that has more concrete results, and that will happen late game anyway provided you put the xp into the weapon of choice.

Hmm, this is more condensending then I intended. Sorry

Whacker

05-09-2007, 04:56

By the end of both FO games my Sniper characters were cranking out 3 (or was it 4?) aimed shots per round into the eyeballs of enemies at long range with spectacular results.

With 10 AGL and 2 in Action Boy, plus Bonus Rate of Fire, you should have been cranking out 3 aimed shots with the Turbo Plasma Rifle each round, or 4 normal shots.

Hardened Power Armor + Turbo Plasma Rifle + Sniper + 10 AGL + 2 Action Boy + Bonus Rate of Fire + deathclaws = lol.

The great thing about FO1 & FO2 is that the developers allow for a great deal of wiggle room when it comes to tweaking your character's attributes, skills & traits.

Agree 100%, this is why I loved the SPECIAL system.

@ Frogness - Did you remember to install both patches for Fallout 2? The 1.02d patch and Killap's patch? If you didn't, be prepared for extremely rude bugs. I know guys like econ said they could enjoy the game at 1.02 alone, but I ended up running into so many script bugs that it aggravated me to the point where I just uninstalled the game, hence my FO1 >>>> FO2 stance for the longest time. YMMV, IANAL, etc etc.

Sir Moody

05-09-2007, 15:07

Ahhhh fallout oh how ive missed it. I still remmeber completeing fallout 2 for the first time without ever using a gun :laugh4: unarmed combat was great fun - there was nothing like charging up to a Power Armoured maniac with a chain gun with nothing but your fists and punching a hole in his ribs :devilish:

Spino

05-09-2007, 17:52

And it keeps you from choosing a perk that has more concrete results, and that will happen late game anyway provided you put the xp into the weapon of choice.

Hmm, this is more condensending then I intended. Sorry

No problem. The Bloody Messy trait is a bit like leather bucket seats... for some it's an expensive luxury, for others it's a necessity... :wink:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino
By the end of both FO games my Sniper characters were cranking out 3 (or was it 4?) aimed shots per round into the eyeballs of enemies at long range with spectacular results.

With 10 AGL and 2 in Action Boy, plus Bonus Rate of Fire, you should have been cranking out 3 aimed shots with the Turbo Plasma Rifle each round, or 4 normal shots.

Hardened Power Armor + Turbo Plasma Rifle + Sniper + 10 AGL + 2 Action Boy + Bonus Rate of Fire + deathclaws = lol.

Quote:
The great thing about FO1 & FO2 is that the developers allow for a great deal of wiggle room when it comes to tweaking your character's attributes, skills & traits.

Agree 100%, this is why I loved the SPECIAL system.

Now there's a man who knows his FO! That's pretty much spot on what I had for my characters. Those aimed shots to the eyes and groin were soooo much fun. Thanks for the refresher course! :thumbsup:

discovery1

05-09-2007, 18:16

Oooo, the offical site changed it's backround (http://fallout.bethsoft.com/). Looks like DC got off with relatively little damage, the capital being standing and all.

Husar

05-09-2007, 19:40

Yeah, you just need to place a tent and it's a really nice place to live.:idea2:

I'm a bit curious now, maybe I'll have a go at the fallout series with Fallout 3, but that depends entirely on what we will be presented of course.

Crandaeolon

05-09-2007, 20:34

Oooo, the offical site changed it's backround (http://fallout.bethsoft.com/). Looks like DC got off with relatively little damage, the capital being standing and all.

The music is not Fallout. :no: IMO Bethesda should ditch Soule and hire Morgan for FO3...

TinCow

05-09-2007, 20:49

The music is not Fallout. :no: IMO Bethesda should ditch Soule and hire Morgan for FO3...

IMO the Fallout games never had any great stand-out music outside of the intros. The 50s jazz was fabulous and atmospheric, but it was never in-game. The in-game music was ho-hum background music that sounded like they put it in because the game had to have music. By comparison, the Bethesda soundtracks are often sweeping and filled with emotion. They really enhance the atmosphere of the games, while the Fallout music simply 'was.' I'm not saying the Fallout music was bad, since I suspect that was entirely the point of it, it just didn't make an impression on me at all.

I would love if they took the jazz theme of the Fallout intros and put it throughout the game, or at least interspersed for appropriate moments, like in cities and towns. My main concern with Bethesda music is that it's pretty repetitive. When you make 'impact' music, like Bethsoft does, it becomes very apparent when you start hearing it over and over again.

econ21

05-09-2007, 21:16

I'm starting to think, like froggy, may be this was great in its day, but times have moved on.

I just want to recant this heresy. I'm now level 12, having taken out the raiders and the game is as satisfying as ever. Varied quests, good dialogue, satisfying combat, great levelling/looting character progression - it's still got it.

The start is rather slow and you do have to save often, but it is rewarding.

Whacker

05-09-2007, 21:28

IMO the Fallout games never had any great stand-out music outside of the intros. The 50s jazz was fabulous and atmospheric, but it was never in-game. The in-game music was ho-hum background music that sounded like they put it in because the game had to have music. By comparison, the Bethesda soundtracks are often sweeping and filled with emotion. They really enhance the atmosphere of the games, while the Fallout music simply 'was.' I'm not saying the Fallout music was bad, since I suspect that was entirely the point of it, it just didn't make an impression on me at all.

I would love if they took the jazz theme of the Fallout intros and put it throughout the game, or at least interspersed for appropriate moments, like in cities and towns. My main concern with Bethesda music is that it's pretty repetitive. When you make 'impact' music, like Bethsoft does, it becomes very apparent when you start hearing it over and over again.

Mate, I gotta disagree with you here. The Fallout 1 & 2 OST is one of my favorites, along with Deus Ex's, both have permanant places on my iPod. Sometimes I will loop the Brotherhood of Steel bgm while I am working on something and not on conf. calls. I felt that overall the FO music was very relevant to the scenes that it was attached to; creepiness at the Necropolis, tribal/almost eastern for Shady Sands, haunting and 'technical' for the Brotherhood, 'urban' for the Hub, etc etc... FO2 wasn't as good as FO1 in terms of music placement in my view, but both were still great. Bethesda's soundtracks have been hit or miss for me, please note that I've only played Morrowind and Oblivion. Morrowind's soundtrack was good, but not great. Oblivion's was decidedly bleh, it got old rather quickly and was forgettable in my view.

discovery1

05-09-2007, 23:07

The music is not Fallout. :no: IMO Bethesda should ditch Soule and hire Morgan for FO3...

Relax. I'm pretty sure that this piece at least would be limited to the main menu and maybe the credits. That and I agree that the music wasn't that great, at least not as anything more then support for the game.

TinCow

05-09-2007, 23:33

One thing I will say: Bethesda better do the opening video right. To this day, the FO2 opening is the best I have ever seen. It puts you more in the mood for the 'world' you are about to enter than any other game I have played. I still sit and watch it almost every time I start the game. By comparison, most other games I play I never watch the intro a second time, let alone 20, 30, or 50 times.

Whacker

05-09-2007, 23:48

Speaking of "War never changes", anyone else see the announcement that Liam Neeson has been signed up to do some significant voice work? My thoughts are mixed on this. He's a great actor and think he could lend a lot to the game, BUT still have a bit of a soft spot for Ron Perlman's narration in the first two.

TinCow

05-09-2007, 23:56

From what I read, Liam Neeson is signed on as one of the characters, so there's still hope that they can get Ron Perlman to do the narration.

Crandaeolon

05-10-2007, 03:40

IMO the Fallout games never had any great stand-out music outside of the intros. The 50s jazz was fabulous and atmospheric, but it was never in-game. The in-game music was ho-hum background music that sounded like they put it in because the game had to have music. By comparison, the Bethesda soundtracks are often sweeping and filled with emotion. They really enhance the atmosphere of the games, while the Fallout music simply 'was.' I'm not saying the Fallout music was bad, since I suspect that was entirely the point of it, it just didn't make an impression on me at all.

I would love if they took the jazz theme of the Fallout intros and put it throughout the game, or at least interspersed for appropriate moments, like in cities and towns. My main concern with Bethesda music is that it's pretty repetitive. When you make 'impact' music, like Bethsoft does, it becomes very apparent when you start hearing it over and over again.

Bethesda's music is repetitive because it's all Soule. ~;p

Soule's definitely not a bad composer, quite the contrary, but so far he's not been very convincing at doing stuff outside of his usual epic, hollywood-soundtracky style.

Post-apocalypse is all about showing the audience that something familiar and homely has ceased to exist. Fallout soundtracks reflect that by starting with 50s style songs in the introduction and switching to a relatively minimalist ambient soundtrack in game. It probably wouldn't be fitting to use 50s(ish) music during the game itself. Epic, sweeping soundtracks don't fit post-apocalypse - a shattered world isn't glorious or uplifting. Creepy ambient soundscapes are more appropriate.

Relax. I'm pretty sure that this piece at least would be limited to the main menu and maybe the credits.

All I'm saying is that it's quite an odd move to introduce Fallout 3 with a piece of music that simply doesn't fit the genre.

Spino

05-10-2007, 18:34

TinCow

05-10-2007, 18:44

Moody, comdark and eerie with a tinge of classic 50s & 60s sci-fi soundtracks is a perfect match to FO's post-war apocalyptic setting.

YES! FO3 needs more theremin music!

Bob the Insane

05-13-2007, 20:54

Well it did it to me again after all these years... I finished Fallout (1) last night, well this morning... Well 4am this morning!!

Such a good story, but man it would have been short if th combat did'nt have it's little quirks (namely the friendly AI)...

Off to give Fallout 2 a go (though I have to say I remember this one much better than the orginal)...

econ21

05-13-2007, 23:26

discovery1

05-15-2007, 20:03

I've got up to New Reno in my latest re-run of FO2, but am getting bogged down by inventory issues. (This so often bogs down good games like the BGs, MWs etc). Having taken out the Morinho and Salvatore gangs, there's a mass of stuff I could loot but collecting it is painful, given the carry constraints on my party. And even if I get it in the car boot, I don't know where I could sell it. (Largest cash holding of a buyer so far is 2000 at Redding casino). I can't help feeling I've seen the best part of the game.

In frustration, I started up Vampires instead for the umpteenth time. The dialogue and quests in Santa Monica are just sublime.

One day I'll summon the strength to go back to NWN2, instead of wasting time replaying old CRPGs.

Yeah, that's a problem, the vendors not having enough cash to pay you. I suggest you barter directly for goods(you can buy power armor in san fran), or just leave the weapons lying on the ground, its not like they go anywhere. Sure its a pain to retrieve them later

Edit: Or just take what you can get. YOu will still be awash in cash.

Whacker

05-15-2007, 20:11

TinCow

05-15-2007, 20:37

There's a new concept art up. It's the best yet IMO.

econ21

05-15-2007, 21:05

There's a new concept art up.

OK, it's official: this is my new "most anticipated computer game". Bioshock lost that title when the producers described it as a shooter. This thread has rekindled my interest in Fallout and strengthened my faith in Bethesda to do it justice.

discovery1

05-16-2007, 03:20

Meh, this is one area that FO2 does force you to make a choice in. If you can get your Gambling above 125%, you can win constantly at the tables in New Reno. Just weigh down the 4 or 5 (or 1, 2, 3, pick one) keys and then come back later. Cheap? I personally don't think so. Barter in FO2 was so nerfed that even with like 500k in cash, I can go through that pretty quick buying supplies , meds, and ammo. That, and even collecting gear off of dead raiders and mutants doesn't really make much of a living, plus you spend all that time running around trying to get a random encounter.

YMMV.

No way. Barter and gambling or wasted slots in FO2. There is so much loot lying around that that alone can sustain you.
Edit: That and barter doesn't do ANYTHING as you observed

How on Earth did that carrier survive? Must have already been a museum piece...

LeftEyeNine

05-16-2007, 13:02

Absolute art.

New concept art drives me insane so that I'd liek to blow the earth up to end up somewhere like that ruin.

Wow.

Whacker

05-16-2007, 13:14

No way. Barter and gambling or wasted slots in FO2.

Disagree.

There is so much loot lying around that that alone can sustain you.

Disagree.

Edit: That and barter doesn't do ANYTHING as you observed

What exactly did I say that it did that was incorrect? I know how barter works kiddo. I get the feeling you really didn't read my post at all.

Spino

05-16-2007, 17:28

OK, it's official: this is my new "most anticipated computer game". Bioshock lost that title when the producers described it as a shooter. This thread has rekindled my interest in Fallout and strengthened my faith in Bethesda to do it justice.

Don't give up on Bioshock just yet. The developers usage of the term 'shooter' may be at the behest of Take Two's marketing suits. The term shooter will probably help sell Bioshock far better than 'first person character role playing game'.

econ21

05-16-2007, 17:35

Don't give up on Bioshock just yet. The developers usage of the term 'shooter' may be at the behest of Take Two's marketing suits. The term shooter will probably help sell Bioshock far better than 'first person character role playing game'.

I take that point, but I did read an interview with a developer where they said Bioshock would be more of a shooter than System Shock. I don't think they were saying that to boost sales, more to adjust expectations from System Shock fans (similar to what apparently happened with Stalker).

I'll still snap it up, but it may be Max Payne/Stalker "good" as opposed to Deus Ex/System Shock "brilliant". I can't help but find shooters one of the dullest genres, rivalling only Command n Conquer type RTSs for popularity and inanity. (Come to think about it what I dislike about FPS and RTSs is virtually the same - they make you feel like a frenetic hamster running on some narrow little wheel).

LeftEyeNine

05-30-2007, 16:35

Beep beep!

New artwork arrrrrrrrived !

Over there ! (http://fallout.bethsoft.com)

Bob the Insane

06-05-2007, 12:13

The trailer countdown is over and replaced by a standby page is more traditional Fallout style...

The teaser trailer should be up today...

Whacker

06-05-2007, 17:34

http://files.filefront.com/Fallout3+TeaserTrailer/;7699970;/fileinfo.html

10% done downloading... 0_o

Edit - Alternative at main site: http://fallout.bethsoft.com/

Edit 2 - Hrmmm... I shall wait until others have had a chance to view in order to discuss. I guess my overall reaction can be described as... 'OK.'

discovery1

06-05-2007, 18:08

Ooo, power armor. 2008?:thumbsdown:

econ21

06-05-2007, 19:57

Spino

06-05-2007, 20:08

I downloaded the trailer .mov file, but Windows Media Player could not play it and my Quick Time said it lacked the necessary components to play it (even after running the updater). Any hints on how to view it?

Works fine on my rig. When in doubt use VLC, it's a great freeware media player that comes packed with codecs and can play just about anything, .mov files included.

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

Lemur

06-06-2007, 15:07

I'm glad they're using the Inkspots again. Louis Armstrong was great, but he wasn't intimately linked in my head with Fallout, the way "Maybe" came to be.

Looks like they included just about everything in the trailer except an isometric turn-based system to reassure Fallout fans. I like it. I'm cheap like that. Butter me up some more, Bethesda. Flattery will get you everywhere.

Whacker

06-06-2007, 15:36

One of my friends said it best; it feels like they had a checklist that they just ran down to make it.

- 50's retro-ish style hardware: check

- 50's music: check

- Reference to vault boy: check

- Multiple item references to FO1 and 2: check

- Post-apocalyptic city setting: check

Anyone else a bit curious about BoS guy and how he got there, seeing how this is supposed to be east coast? I gather from Tactics that some BoS people made it to the Midwest, but it's unknown if that game is considered canon or not. Disco and I had a convo on IRC about this, I think he had the best idea in that someone captured/took a vertibird from the Enclave based from FO2, presuming the Chosen One destroyed it.

TinCow

06-06-2007, 15:42

Abokasee

06-06-2007, 16:41

They havnt touched on any other parts of the world yet, we've only seen how the survivors are getting on in the USA, Wonder how there getting on in russia, would there be things like chernobyl only worse all over the country, is there Cannablism in china, has Britain went into a mass migration over europe raiding and pillaging all things in there way, I've seen the thing on IGN

Here (http://uk.media.pc.ign.com/media/568/568806/vid_2012297.html)

It remains true to the orginal them, although the person with the big gas mask in power armour is more bulkey and rigid, but not as large

Whacker

06-06-2007, 17:11

I personally think the teaser indicates a top down (not isometric) view more than a first person view. It's made with the in-game engine, which means that's what things will look like in-game, even if the perspective and stuff is off. The textures and detail in the bus look way too low to me for a first person game. They're good, but they're definitely well below the standards set by Oblivion. Lower resolution to me means that people will not see things really close up that often and/or that there will be a lot of stuff visible on-screen at once, requiring lower detail to be playable. All in all, that seems to me to be entirely in-line with a top-down perspective game.

At this point, I'm going to place my money on a top-down view with close-up zoom ability, like in Dawn of War and Company of Heroes. Perhaps it's wishful thinking (I think that view would be perfect for the game, better than isometric) but that's what I'm going to go with until I see otherwise.

Showing off my ignorance here, but I thought for the longest time that the Gamebryo engine was an original Beth product. Nope, turns out it's used for quite a few games, including amongst others, Civ4. That gave me some real honest hope, which I had been lacking lately given Beth's track record and the lack of info for the longest time.

Also, regarding the top down. I really want to believe that, but I've seen enough arguments based on that video that could go either way. Also, we do know that it's not real time right? Per Pete Hines, in it's rendered by the engine as a cinematic, not as one would experience in-game.

econ21

06-06-2007, 17:39

When in doubt use VLC, it's a great freeware media player that comes packed with codecs and can play just about anything, .mov files included.

Thanks - worked great. :2thumbsup:

As for the trailer: A+ for keeping true to the Fallout traditions. But I think it tells us absolutely nothing about the gameplay, e.g. whether it is first person view or whatever.

TinCow

06-06-2007, 17:45

Also, we do know that it's not real time right? Per Pete Hines, in it's rendered by the engine as a cinematic, not as one would experience in-game.

Nothing I have read indicates real time or turn based at all. You're right about the teaser being rendered in-game as a cinematic and nothing more, so that means nothing, but I haven't seen any info to shed light on that aspect. Personally, I think it would be best to use an Infinity Engine style hybrid, where it's turn based, but runs in real time and you can pause to give commands.

Whacker

06-06-2007, 17:52

Personally, I think it would be best to use an Infinity Engine style hybrid, where it's turn based, but runs in real time and you can pause to give commands.

There have been a few good debates about this. My two cents, I wouldn't be opposed to it at all, IF it's done and implemented right. The issue is that it tends to break parts of the SPECIAL combat system, sequence being one of these things off the top of my head.

TinCow

06-06-2007, 18:33

The Infinity Engine took sequence into account in a roundabout way by giving weapon speeds, casting times, etc. It wouldn't be that hard to change the SPECIAL sequence perks/traits to shave off some time on the actions in that manner. Not the same as FO1/2, but the end result is largely the same.

I definitely hope they keep the SPECIAL system intact, but I really really want new and revised perks/traits. The FO2 system had so many uber ones and so many totally useless ones that it made the characters pretty bland. I would like to see them balance out the effects a lot more, so that there's not just one or two single character development tracks that dominate them all. Gifted in particular has simply got to go.

Spino

06-06-2007, 19:07

Thanks - worked great. :2thumbsup:

As for the trailer: A+ for keeping true to the Fallout traditions. But I think it tells us absolutely nothing about the gameplay, e.g. whether it is first person view or whatever.

You're welcome!

I think the trailer is great! It totally gets me in a FO state of mind and I loved hearing Ron Perlman's voice at the end. Fall 2008 is such a long time to wait... :sad:

I'm hoping FO3 is first person, or in the very least 3rd person with an option for 1st person viewing like KOTOR. I'd hate to have the camera limited to the traditional FO perspective, I want to see ceilings and the sky dammit!

Whacker

06-06-2007, 22:53

You're welcome!

I think the trailer is great! It totally gets me in a FO state of mind and I loved hearing Ron Perlman's voice at the end. Fall 2008 is such a long time to wait... :sad:

I'm hoping FO3 is first person, or in the very least 3rd person with an option for 1st person viewing like KOTOR. I'd hate to have the camera limited to the traditional FO perspective, I want to see ceilings and the sky dammit!

I challenge thee to a duel. To the death, sir! To the death!

Lemur

06-07-2007, 01:30

I'm hoping FO3 is first person, or in the very least 3rd person with an option for 1st person viewing like KOTOR. I'd hate to have the camera limited to the traditional FO perspective, I want to see ceilings and the sky dammit!
As unpopular as this notion is, I kinda agree. I loved the first two Fallouts, but I'm ready for a different play dynamic. Stalker showed me the light.

If I said any such thing over at No Mutants Allowed, I would be hung, drawn and quartered.

russia almighty

06-07-2007, 02:39

As long as there is no level scaling I'll be happy. That was oblivions only major problem.

econ21

06-07-2007, 08:59

If I said any such thing over at No Mutants Allowed, I would be hung, drawn and quartered.

Don't worry - Whacker will get to you soon enough after he is done with Spino. :laugh4:

Personally, I think lots of styles could work. They emphasise different things. The old Fallout isometric style can make things more tactical (although IMO FO1 and FO2 were never that tactical, unlike say Baldur's Gate 2 which was pretty much a squad level tactics game at one level.) The Stalker style can make things more immersive. Perhaps the KOTOR style is a happy compromise between the two.

But the key things I liked about FO - story, character, quests, freedom to roam a vast world, dialogue and writing, the atmosphere & premise, SPECIAL, the combat vs non-combat options etc - could work with any of these styles. And if these things are fluffed, FO3 won't regardless of the perspective. The teaser gives me hope they won't be fluffed.

TB666

06-07-2007, 09:57

I'm hoping FO3 is first person, or in the very least 3rd person with an option for 1st person viewing like KOTOR. I'd hate to have the camera limited to the traditional FO perspective, I want to see ceilings and the sky dammit!
I agree.
After seeing the concept art 1st/3rd person view would be the best.
With the old fallout style view you couldn't really see that much of the world.

Whacker

06-08-2007, 00:27

Ugh. I'm still firmly middle-ground-ish here on the perspective.

First, I do NOT want another Oblivion FPS or Third Person Shooter fest. I do NOT want Oblivion with guns. Oblivion was/is a great fantasy FPS but it failed miserably in the RPG department, and Fallout is all about RPG.

Second, I do NOT want a purely fixed perspective isometric-only game. The NMA people who keep harping on this ("IF ITS NOT 2D PIXELATED ISOMETRIX ITS NOT FALLOUT GRALHALH!!!", those types) really are the wierdos, in my view.

My personal perference is still something roughly like the Ground Zero mod/tech demo for Doom 3: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-596257484400160571 . It's designed mainly around a free moving non-fixed external camera, yet in a pinch it can work in the 1st or 3rd person perspective. The combat was very, very rough, but something along those lines would be OK in my book. It worked best in the free-floating camera mode, but those few instances where the char was in the building shooting outward, it made sense to switch to the 1st/3rd person fixed views. Really this would be a win-win in my view. If one wanted to play through in an entirely 1st person, they could, but they'd (hopefully) miss some things that would only be seen with use of an external isometric-ish freefloating camera. Conversely, it'd be cool to maybe hide some things in some hard to see spots that can only be seen when it 1st person perspective. This way, it forces the player to periodically rotate and use different angles to fully explore.

I guess the key thing for me is the combat, I want this to be an RPG, something worthy of the glory days of yore. There should be absolutely nothing in combat that's twitch based, a la Oblivion. Fallout is about RPG. Fallout is about SPECIAL. Fallout is about nerdness and stats and figuring out how many points I need to dump into energy weapons so I can still get a decent hit percentile at night yet not 'waste' any more so I can put that in another critical skill.

:balloon2:

Add following heretics to hit list:

spino
Lemur
TB666

Keep an eye on the following for potential thoughtcrimes:

econ

Phatose

06-08-2007, 03:37

Played Silent Storm? That's the perspective I want.

As for the trailer...very nice. But does nothing to put my mind at ease, since the cinematic sweeping drama portions of fallout are not what I doubt Beth's ability to do.

TinCow

06-08-2007, 14:13

Tycho from Penny Arcade put in his 2 cents on the matter as well:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/06/06

I have seen opinions running the rage on the Fallout 3 Teaser, but I brave those forums daily - I'm well over the DRI for franchise-related anguish. The clip is not designed to shock or startle people, it has only one purpose - to deliver a high-pressure jet of fan service. Of course, many of the hardcore fans are actually irritated by such brazen attempts to placate them. And thus we see the heavy stone, and also the steep hill, and look! There's Sisyphus, waving madly. Is he greeting us, or warning us?

I consider myself a fan of Fallout, at any rate I did before, and I was grieved to see it ransacked at the hands of an increasingly desperate Interplay. But it's become clear that what makes it Fallout to me is very different than it is for other fans. We ran into the same issue with Tribal War over Tribes 2, culminating in a brutal conflict that pitted gamer against gamer. As it relates to Fallout, I am distinguished from what you might call the Orthodox fan of the series. One is that I simply believe that elements like Turn-Based and Isometric were artifacts of their time. There is nothing wrong with them mechanically, they do not want for elegance, and the genre is still going strong in Japanese titles that I play and enjoy. But I'm not going to create a religion out of it because tiled environments happened to be expedient a million ******* years ago.

Fallout is not - for me - defined by its perspective. It's defined by the unique setting, and the meaningful, satisfying choices I can make to affect that setting. I don't care where the camera is. If those things are intact, they can put the camera in geosynchronous Goddamn orbit.

Spino

06-08-2007, 18:15

Orb

06-12-2007, 12:10

Just got into Fallout 1. It's truly amazing.

Found the water chip, my eighth level character's going great. I've murdered the entire population of the Necropolis (including the glowing ghouls). They just creep me out. I was also forced to defend myself from the 'law' in Junktown after I nailed the doctor for cutting up human bodies... Well, I didn't really have to shoot the guard at the gate in the eyes at point blank range after he just told me to get out, but it left me feeling far more complete about the whole experience.

Anyway, the story's going well, the world's immersive, the violence is actually pretty shocking (not storybook clean killing, so I like it). The ambiguity and options are great. Team members are annoying and get in the way of burst, but you can 'accidentally' head shot them with a Desert Eagle if they do.

Currently I'm just cruising and exploring for a while.

I cannot recommend this game highly enough. The dirt-cheap amazon package is well worth getting.

Orb

06-12-2007, 17:25

This goes under the highly official and prestigious 'Orb's 6 Greatest Games' awards as third.

1 - Baldur's Gate II
2 - Europa Barbarorum
3 - Fallout
4 - KOTOR II
5 - Prince of Persia - Two Thrones/Sands of Time
6 - Shadow of the Colossus

I just may have caused the entire population of Adytown, to kill each other. I didn't actually mean to... I just wanted to take out the guards. Anyway, this game has made me empathise, and feel guilty about the twenty-odd innocent townies who got nailed by the guards because I started a firefight with the latter.

econ21

06-12-2007, 19:51

This goes under the highly official and prestigious 'Orb's 6 Greatest Games' awards as third.

1 - Baldur's Gate II
2 - Europa Barbarorum
3 - Fallout
4 - KOTOR II.

A man of impeccable taste, sir. :bow: (I confess I have not played 5 & 6 on your list.)

Bob the Insane

06-12-2007, 20:17

Personally I always prefered the original Prince of Persia (DOS version) :2thumbsup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PrinceOfPersia_computer_game.png

I wonder how long before we can expect any more info or news sneaking out about FO3. Probably best to put those thoughts into hybernation for a while...

TinCow

06-12-2007, 20:54

I wonder how long before we can expect any more info or news sneaking out about FO3. Probably best to put those thoughts into hybernation for a while...

Game Informer has got an article/preview/super-hype-promo-thing about FO3 in their next issue (July?). My friends at Bethesda indicated that there wouldn't be any other info out until then. They did suggest that the Game Informer article would answer the isometric/third person/first person/brahmin lower colon view question, so I have hope. Then again, their statements made me think the same thing about the teaser clip, so who knows. (They're really careful about the NDA and I try to avoid asking them questions about the game. Needling guys about game details they aren't allowed to talk about is not really something friends do.)

Whacker

06-15-2007, 02:47

http://fallout3.wordpress.com/

*sigh*

:shame:

TB666

06-15-2007, 02:52

http://fallout3.wordpress.com/

If it's true then I'm really interested :2thumbsup:

Whacker

06-15-2007, 02:57

Indeed, IF that is true, then it's Oblivion with Guns pretty much. Oh well, it still never hurt to dream. I shall light a memorial candle tonight in memory of it's passing.

TB666

06-15-2007, 03:02

Well almost like Oblivion except with a different leveling and combat system.
Just thinking about how the world will look with a updated oblivion engine makes my mouth drool.

TinCow

06-15-2007, 03:45

Indeed, IF that is true, then it's Oblivion with Guns pretty much.

Er... third person, turn-based combat using the SPECIAL system, without leveled creatures is Oblivion with Guns? Why? Because it runs on a modified Oblivion engine?

Whacker

06-15-2007, 04:07

Er... third person, turn-based combat using the SPECIAL system, without leveled creatures is Oblivion with Guns? Why? Because it runs on a modified Oblivion engine?

Third person aye, but what kind? Floating camera or fixed perspective behind? I'm thinking the latter taking the whole post in context. Further, I read the statements about VATS to mean that combat was designed primarily for first person.

Action points... I don't really see how this works well with first person as they described it. My pessimism read that to be something like "action points are going to be some esoteric meaningless value and combat is for all intents and purposes essentially going to be twitch based". Whatever, I said I would be cool with something turn based roughly like what was in that D3 tech demo, this doesn't sound like that at all. This sounds like counterstrike with a stopwatch each "round".

SPECIAL? They went Beth-style on it and chopped it down to 14 skills. Honestly I don't see how they did that, I thought there were too few skills TBQH. /shrug Guess it's that whole "simplification" thing which I abhor. Witness the removal of quite a few types of weapons from Morrowind to Oblivion, and the overall slimming down of skills.

Level scaling gone is good.

TinCow

06-15-2007, 12:12

Third person aye, but what kind? Floating camera or fixed perspective behind? I'm thinking the latter taking the whole post in context. Further, I read the statements about VATS to mean that combat was designed primarily for first person.

Action points... I don't really see how this works well with first person as they described it. My pessimism read that to be something like "action points are going to be some esoteric meaningless value and combat is for all intents and purposes essentially going to be twitch based". Whatever, I said I would be cool with something turn based roughly like what was in that D3 tech demo, this doesn't sound like that at all. This sounds like counterstrike with a stopwatch each "round".

SPECIAL? They went Beth-style on it and chopped it down to 14 skills. Honestly I don't see how they did that, I thought there were too few skills TBQH. /shrug Guess it's that whole "simplification" thing which I abhor. Witness the removal of quite a few types of weapons from Morrowind to Oblivion, and the overall slimming down of skills.

Level scaling gone is good.

It's the Oblivion engine, so I'm almost positive it's a fixed rear camera, which I agree is not great.

Regarding combat, I'm just going by what I read, which includes this:

It seems that outside of the VATS system everything is real time. The only time the game pauses is when you enter the VATS system and start using AP and issuing commands. The article doesn’t really say much more than that, but they do say that the game is geared more towards a role-playing turn based style as opposed to a twitch gaming style of play.

As for the skills... well, I gotta be honest, it entirely depends on the skills that were removed. There were so many totally useless skills and perks in the Fallout games. I personally NEVER used more than 14 skills. Not even close to that number. Sorry, but Gambling simply doesn't do it for me. First Aid AND Doctor? Why both? Totally redundant, the only reason to use First Aid was when you ran out of daily uses of Doctor and wanted extra healing. Even then, easier to simply use Stimpaks. Outdoorsman? I wouldn't expect that to work well in a game without the world map anyway. If you want to avoid a random encounter... walk around it. Throwing? Who ever specialized in Thrown Weapons?

Subtract Gambling, First Aid, Outdoorsman, and Throwing. There ya go, 14 skills left. Not so painful, was it?

econ21

06-15-2007, 14:34

http://fallout3.wordpress.com/

*sigh*

I don't want to parade in your rain, Whacker, but there is a lot of hope for me in that link. The SPECIAL system is largely in tact and the combat has some action point element and is not purely twitch based - FO3 is looking up. :2thumbsup:

Whacker

06-15-2007, 19:33

I don't want to parade in your rain, Whacker, but there is a lot of hope for me in that link. The SPECIAL system is largely in tact and the combat has some action point element and is not purely twitch based - FO3 is looking up. :2thumbsup:

More power to you then sir. There shouldn't be absolutely anything twitch based in the game, hence my disappointment. This really isn't surprising, given one of the Beth dev's posts in the forum a week or so ago. In it, he all but stated that he thinks turn-based is old and busted, and real-time is the new hotness.

Whacker

06-15-2007, 19:44

As for the skills... well, I gotta be honest, it entirely depends on the skills that were removed. There were so many totally useless skills and perks in the Fallout games. I personally NEVER used more than 14 skills. Not even close to that number. Sorry, but Gambling simply doesn't do it for me. First Aid AND Doctor? Why both? Totally redundant, the only reason to use First Aid was when you ran out of daily uses of Doctor and wanted extra healing. Even then, easier to simply use Stimpaks. Outdoorsman? I wouldn't expect that to work well in a game without the world map anyway. If you want to avoid a random encounter... walk around it. Throwing? Who ever specialized in Thrown Weapons?

Subtract Gambling, First Aid, Outdoorsman, and Throwing. There ya go, 14 skills left. Not so painful, was it?

That's entirely your opinion mate.

- I used gambling excessively in FO2. Contrary to what ya'll may think, it does have quite a bit of use, and there were more than a few skill checks on events that looked for high gamble. Further, I don't like wasting time running around looking for random encounters to kill stuff to loot $500 worth of gear that isn't going to make a dent in getting more fusion cell ammo that I need which is $1000+ a whack. This is esp. true when running against the clock attempting to complete tasks/the game within a timeframe as a challenge.

- First Aid was a bit frivolous, but not for people short on stimpacks playing for time. Doctor did heal a bit more but took an hour or two off your timer, as opposed to the 15 in FA.

- Outdoorsman. Again playing for time. And the thought of FO3 being like Oblivion in terms of the world makes me a sad panda. And being able to get around the map without being stopped every 1 cm was far less frustrating.

- Sticking a few points in throwing weapons was incredibly useful for lobing grenades around when playing a shooter char. That saved my hide more than a few times when up against a number of super 'mutes or floaters that bunch up. Also there are people who do like to specialize in throwing and/or melee based characters. Just because you may have not, doesn't mean that others haven't or don't want to. This is the exact same as the lack of weapon diversity in Morrowind vs Oblivion.

TB666

06-16-2007, 12:44

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36877&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
^Some screens of gameplay.
I must say that it looks amazing.
Fall 2008 is so far away.

frogbeastegg

06-17-2007, 18:42

Orb

06-17-2007, 19:13

Well, I finished the first one recently (completely stunning :bow:) and am starting up on the second as an unarmed-steal-big guns character (my FO1 character, Sophia, was a pure combatant who wasted some skill points on first aid).

The third probably won't function on my PC, so I'm not worried ;)

Kekvit Irae

06-17-2007, 19:29

I just saw a Fallout thread on 4chan /b/, and now I want to cry my eyes out. Bethesda just tore out all that was good and decent with Fallout and made it into Oblivion... With Guns.

RIP Fallout (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kekvitirae/fallout.jpg)

Oblivion With Gunz! (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kekvitirae/fallout2.jpg)

Pipboy (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kekvitirae/fallout3.jpg)

Bethesda (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kekvitirae/fallout4.jpg)

More Oblivion (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kekvitirae/fallout5.jpg)

100% Hit Rate (https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kekvitirae/fallout6.jpg)

May you burn for all eternity, Bethesda.

Whacker

06-18-2007, 03:08

Nooooo! It has weapon degredation! That's one of my most hated 'features' in an RPG! Gah! Where's the point in hunting down a great weapon only to have it break or to be afraid of using it because it might!? It's just as bad if the weapons are easy to repair repeatedly; at that point it becomes a tedious and pointless chore.

There'd better be a toggle or some way to mod it out.
Probably not, seeing how Oblivion is honestly not that moddable at all.

Look on the bright side, you'll be able to 'fix' your weapons with your repair kits, and as you use the skill to increase it you'll eventually be able to 'fix' your weapons to 125% repaired and it'll improve all weapon hits to automatic criticals with a bonus chance to automatically kill whatever it is in one hit.

Well, I finished the first one recently (completely stunning :bow:) and am starting up on the second as an unarmed-steal-big guns character (my FO1 character, Sophia, was a pure combatant who wasted some skill points on first aid).

The third probably won't function on my PC, so I'm not worried ;)
Seriously glad to see you are enjoying the originals mate. It's simultaneously amusing and sad to see your comments about the game, esp. the ones in a previous post where you were mentioning your reactions to certain consequences based on how you played. Things like that really are a rarity these days in games that are becoming all too shallow.

@ Kek

LOL!! I'd seen the 3rd pic before, but not the other ones. Here's one of my favorites: http://www.fanmadefallout.com/IMG/news/fallout_3_by_bethesda_admiral_jimbob_rpgcodex.gif

Bob the Insane

06-18-2007, 12:05

My perspective is that while this might not be the Fallout we all waited for, it may not in and of itself be a bad game (heck it would be nice to have something like Stalker only with a coherent plot and which did not crash every 5 minutes)...

Oblivion is not a bad game, a bit repetative maybe with some odd design decisions (I wonder if any RPG will every try leveling the world in line with your character again, plus being head the of goody-two-shoes guild and the dark master at the same time) but it was basically a fully functionaly RPG and fun in parts.

The old console thing is always a worry of course, even as a 360 owner I understand the effect it can have on a previously detailed and deliciously complex PC game...

I am willing to wait an see if they can learn from their mistakes (in Oblivion) and produce something worthy of the Fallout name. It really is in there best interests as a success would guarantee sales for a Fallout 4...

I am having a go at Fallout Tactics finally, fun so far... The improvements to the old engine are nice and I quite like the realtime combat (with some pausing)... I would love to have seen a Fallout RPG made with it... Fallout Episodes perhapes... Kind of like Plup Fallout... :2thumbsup:

TB666

06-18-2007, 13:04

Personally I never understood the term "Oblivion with guns" and it's usage as a insult.
First of all, it will be different then oblivion. It will have different leveling system, new combat system, different setting etc. Only thing that is the same is the engine which is improved and that the weapons degrade and even there they are trying something new. So really the only thing oblivion about fallout is the engine and come on, did you really think they would go 1990's and go for the top-down view to please some fans that are determined to bash them whatever they do ??
And 2nd, that term only makes me like the game more.
Oblivion was great if you ignore the leveling and skills system but luckily that won't be in Fallout.

After reading the comments on among other the fallout forum that I posted the link, I must say that I'm not surprised that Bethesda choose to ignore them. Even if Bethesda would have made Fallout 3 to be just like Fallout 2(which I'm really happy that they aren't) they would still get bashed.
Constructive critism is always good but what they are doing isn't.
They think they are doing something good but really they are doing more damage.
So if Bethesda is reading this(you never know, they might be TW fans) then I saw that keep up ignoring them and keep on making a fallout game that is fun and captures world of Fallout perfectly.

TinCow

06-18-2007, 14:42

Probably not, seeing how Oblivion is honestly not that moddable at all.

Ok, now that comment you have to substantiate.

Whacker

06-18-2007, 15:19

Ok, now that comment you have to substantiate.

Certainly sir. What all can you change in that game?

- You can make new textures and models.

- You can script things given a fair number of variables.

- You can also fiddle somewhat with the interface, thank the gods, so that the PC version doesn't have the absolutely deplorable console interface.

What can't you do?

- Add new skills and attributes

- Add/fix existing/new magicka effects (levitation for example)

- Add/fix game mechanics. This is really the biggie in my view. Things such as removing the obnoxious influence game, changing the money/barter system to the previous Morrowind style, giving the magicka/alchemy systems the depth they had in Morrowind, change how combat mechanics work, etc etc etc. All the stuff that's hardcoded and we don't have access to.

- Add new/removed weapon classes like spears, crossbows (yes I know about the admirable but mostly failed attempt), polearms; separation of bladed weapons back to short vs long, axes vs blunt, etc

- Reasonably add new content to existing or new NPCs without doing one's own voiceovers, seeing how the entire game is already VO'd (which is incredibly limiting IMO)

These are largely the same reasons I've repeatedly said M2TW isn't that moddable, even though they claim it to be "modder's heaven." As much as it pains me to admit this, Valve set the bar with their Source engine and the outstanding support they provide to their modding community. The fact that there are thousands of mod projects listed on moddb should tell us something here. Of course ID and Epic have also done bangup jobs, but not on the same scale as Valve. Being able to make a game prettier with new textures and models, and fiddling with a few numeric variables does not remotely qualify as "extensively moddable". Real modding is being able to change core gameplay mechanics to suit an individual's vision on how they want the game to change.

TinCow

06-18-2007, 17:01

What can't you do?

- Add new skills and attributes

True, shame that.

- Add/fix existing/new magicka effects (levitation for example)

I've seen plenty of new spell mods, so I don't quite understand. The levitation thing was due to engine limitations caused by making the cities their own cells outside the larger world. If you were able to levitate, you could go over the city walls and would find yourself in the middle of a city that didn't work. Levitiation was cheesy and easy to exploit in Morrowind anyway, so I don't consider it a big loss.

Add/fix game mechanics. This is really the biggie in my view. Things such as removing the obnoxious influence game, changing the money/barter system to the previous Morrowind style, giving the magicka/alchemy systems the depth they had in Morrowind, change how combat mechanics work, etc etc etc. All the stuff that's hardcoded and we don't have access to.

The money/barter system can most certainly be modded. You should check out the Living Economy mod which is 10x better than even Morrowind was. Alchemy has been similarly improved by modding as well and I don't see any deficiencies in comparison to Morrowind. I'm not sure what you mean by combat mechanics. If it is the style of swinging and so on, you are correct.

- Add new/removed weapon classes like spears, crossbows (yes I know about the admirable but mostly failed attempt), polearms; separation of bladed weapons back to short vs long, axes vs blunt, etc

This is the same thing as the skills/attributes problem, which I agree with.

- Reasonably add new content to existing or new NPCs without doing one's own voiceovers, seeing how the entire game is already VO'd (which is incredibly limiting IMO)

NPCs don't have to have voiceovers to work. I've seen plenty of mods with only text and no voice. The majority of them actually (which is a good thing, because most amateur voice acting is horrid). I don't see how this is a limitation at all.

These are largely the same reasons I've repeatedly said M2TW isn't that moddable, even though they claim it to be "modder's heaven." As much as it pains me to admit this, Valve set the bar with their Source engine and the outstanding support they provide to their modding community. The fact that there are thousands of mod projects listed on moddb should tell us something here. Of course ID and Epic have also done bangup jobs, but not on the same scale as Valve. Being able to make a game prettier with new textures and models, and fiddling with a few numeric variables does not remotely qualify as "extensively moddable". Real modding is being able to change core gameplay mechanics to suit an individual's vision on how they want the game to change.

True, it basically amounts to changing the content of the game and having to live with the engine it runs on. However, I don't consider that a minor thing, especially with Bethesda games which have the modding tools available from the very day of release. There is far more to Fallout than action points and isometric views. It's the storyline, the atmosphere, and the open-ended questing that are the real gem. That's exactly what can be changed/fixed with the tools Bethesda provides. I very much look forward to the wonderful story and art mods that the dedicated old school Fallout community will surely come up with. I suspect they will make Beth's F3 into a longterm classic.

Spino

06-18-2007, 18:37

Whacker

06-18-2007, 18:37

I've seen plenty of new spell mods, so I don't quite understand. The levitation thing was due to engine limitations caused by making the cities their own cells outside the larger world. If you were able to levitate, you could go over the city walls and would find yourself in the middle of a city that didn't work. Levitiation was cheesy and easy to exploit in Morrowind anyway, so I don't consider it a big loss.
These spell mods are all completely based on existing magicka effects. Show me one that isn't. And I'll just say this once, because it seems to be a pretty common theme in your responses to me. Just because YOU don't like it or want it, doesn't mean there aren't a very large number of others who do. That's an extremely arrogant attitude to take. You will note that in almost all of my previous posts regarding modding in games is to make it so that everyone can find an acceptable solution. That pointless "Take it out because I don't like it" or "I don't care if it's not moddable because it's fine to me" is both selfish and not constructive.

The money/barter system can most certainly be modded. You should check out the Living Economy mod which is 10x better than even Morrowind was.
Scripting a few events around the core mechanics is one thing. Changing them back to Morrowind-style "Merchant runs out of cash", "barter skill can eventually cause you to buy items for less than the merchant will pay for them" etc is another thing entirely. If you know of something like this, please point it out.

Alchemy has been similarly improved by modding as well and I don't see any deficiencies in comparison to Morrowind.
I am certainly not aware of any along the lines that you mentioned, by all means please educate me if you know of some.

I'm not sure what you mean by combat mechanics. If it is the style of swinging and so on, you are correct.
It's far more than just "style of swinging", but yes.

NPCs don't have to have voiceovers to work. I've seen plenty of mods with only text and no voice.
I already said this, did you read my post? I said it's very noticable and also pretty lame since they won't jive with the rest of the game. You are talking with an NPC who has a number of things to say, then you go into extended dialogue branches that were added by fans, and he's got nothing to say at all. (non-specific example)

The majority of them actually (which is a good thing, because most amateur voice acting is horrid).
That's pretty much what I said earlier, the amatuer stuff can and quite often is a very admirable attempt, but it doesn't come close to the quality of what the studio can produce.

I don't see how this is a limitation at all.
It very much is in terms of adding new content, for many reasons including the ones I've mentioned.

True, it basically amounts to changing the content of the game and having to live with the engine it runs on. However, I don't consider that a minor thing, especially with Bethesda games which have the modding tools available from the very day of release.
To their credit, Bethesda has done far more than CA has done in terms of 'support'. The Construction Kit certainly has far more functionality than the few 'tools' that CA has given their community, and CA also has an extensive Wiki set up that's contributed to heavily by the devs. This still utterly pales in comparison to what Valve, ID, and Epic have done though.

There is far more to Fallout than action points and isometric views.
Nice jab. I've made a point to focus on the issue at hand and not take underhanded digs at you, I expect the same courtesy, esp. from a mod.

It's the storyline, the atmosphere, and the open-ended questing that are the real gem.
Wrong, it's far more than that. People don't seem to understand that a game is more than just "story", it's the sum of it's parts, which is precisely why good gameplay mechanics are integral to having a good game. This is incidentally why I've written off FO3, because the original outstanding mechanics have been changed drastically according to that article in the gaming rag. Gameplay isn't just an afterthought, it's a key part to what makes a game and moreso a series successful. Look at the X-com games and how they went downhill after the first two.

That's exactly what can be changed/fixed with the tools Bethesda provides. I very much look forward to the wonderful story and art mods that the dedicated old school Fallout community will surely come up with. I suspect they will make Beth's F3 into a longterm classic.
Perhaps, but to the Oblivion FPS crowd, not to the Fallout RPG playing crowd.

Csargo

06-18-2007, 18:43

These spell mods are all completely based on existing magicka effects. Show me one that isn't. And I'll just say this once, because it seems to be a pretty common theme in your responses to me. Just because YOU don't like it or want it, doesn't mean there aren't a very large number of others who do. That's an extremely arrogant attitude to take. You will note that in almost all of my previous posts regarding modding in games is to make it so that everyone can find an acceptable solution. That pointless "Take it out because I don't like it" or "I don't care if it's not moddable because it's fine to me" is both selfish and not constructive.

Scripting a few events around the core mechanics is one thing. Changing them back to Morrowind-style "Merchant runs out of cash", "barter skill can eventually cause you to buy items for less than the merchant will pay for them" etc is another thing entirely. If you know of something like this, please point it out.

I am certainly not aware of any along the lines that you mentioned, by all means please educate me if you know of some.

It's far more than just "style of swinging", but yes.

I already said this, did you read my post? I said it's very noticable and also pretty lame since they won't jive with the rest of the game. You are talking with an NPC who has a number of things to say, then you go into extended dialogue branches that were added by fans, and he's got nothing to say at all. (non-specific example)

That's pretty much what I said earlier, the amatuer stuff can and quite often is a very admirable attempt, but it doesn't come close to the quality of what the studio can produce.

It very much is in terms of adding new content, for many reasons including the ones I've mentioned.

To their credit, Bethesda has done far more than CA has done in terms of 'support'. The Construction Kit certainly has far more functionality than the few 'tools' that CA has given their community, and CA also has an extensive Wiki set up that's contributed to heavily by the devs. This still utterly pales in comparison to what Valve, ID, and Epic have done though.

Nice jab. I've made a point to focus on the issue at hand and not take underhanded digs at you, I expect the same courtesy, esp. from a mod.

Wrong, it's far more than that. People don't seem to understand that a game is more than just "story", it's the sum of it's parts, which is precisely why good gameplay mechanics are integral to having a good game. This is incidentally why I've written off FO3, because the original outstanding mechanics have been changed drastically according to that article in the gaming rag. Gameplay isn't just an afterthought, it's a key part to what makes a game and moreso a series successful. Look at the X-com games and how they went downhill after the first two.

Perhaps, but to the Oblivion FPS crowd, not to the Fallout RPG playing crowd.

OH NO HE DIDANT!

Whacker

06-18-2007, 18:51

OH NO HE DIDANT!

I still fully expect you to fulfill your role in the chat and defend me against Fizzil and Disco's vicious FO3 attacks when I am not around. :whip:

Csargo

06-18-2007, 19:18

I still fully expect you to fulfill your role in the chat and defend me against Fizzil and Disco's vicious FO3 attacks when I am not around. :whip:

Bah humbug

TinCow

06-18-2007, 19:23

I'll just say this once, because it seems to be a pretty common theme in your responses to me. Just because YOU don't like it or want it, doesn't mean there aren't a very large number of others who do. That's an extremely arrogant attitude to take. You will note that in almost all of my previous posts regarding modding in games is to make it so that everyone can find an acceptable solution. That pointless "Take it out because I don't like it" or "I don't care if it's not moddable because it's fine to me" is both selfish and not constructive.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I have tried to make it very clear in every single one of my posts that I am talking about my personal opinion. I am not you, so I cannot see the world the way you do. I know what I like so I speak about that and I try to constantly say "in my opinion" or "personally" to make that clear. I am sorry if that comes across as selfish or non-constructive to you. That is not my intention, I simply and expressing my opinion about what I like and don't like about the games I play.

Scripting a few events around the core mechanics is one thing. Changing them back to Morrowind-style "Merchant runs out of cash", "barter skill can eventually cause you to buy items for less than the merchant will pay for them" etc is another thing entirely. If you know of something like this, please point it out.

I just did. It's called the Living Economy mod. Merchants have fixed amounts of cash and the run out. The more of an item a merchant has, the less money he will buy it for and vice versa (supply and demand). I don't have a link for it because I'm at work, but it should be very easy to find at any Oblivion modding website. It's even built-in to OOO.

I am certainly not aware of any along the lines that you mentioned, by all means please educate me if you know of some.

I don't know the name of them off the top of my head, but there are several built-in to OOO as well. Flora and Fauna something or other? There's a ton of alchemy stuff out there that will mimic any and all game effects.

I already said this, did you read my post? I said it's very noticable and also pretty lame since they won't jive with the rest of the game. You are talking with an NPC who has a number of things to say, then you go into extended dialogue branches that were added by fans, and he's got nothing to say at all. (non-specific example)

So what's the alternative, removing all voicing from the game? While I certainly wish there was a great deal more text and speech options, I personally think that the text sounds good when it is spoken. I really, really, really want them to add far more text than they did in Oblivion, but why does that mean they have to take out the voiced parts to make it mesh? For many years now, games have included a mix of text and voice, I think that works just as well with Oblivion as it did with FO1.

Nice jab. I've made a point to focus on the issue at hand and not take underhanded digs at you, I expect the same courtesy, esp. from a mod.

This is out of line. My comment was not an attack on you by any means. it was make a differentiation between the content of the game and the game engine. Please re-read my words.

I swear that nothing I am writing is a personal attack on you. Please do not take it that way. If you feel attacked by anything I have written, then I fervently apologize for it. I like responding to your posts because you have a lot of interesting things to say about Fallout and I enjoy discussing them. Your posts have made this a far more interesting thread than simply links to new screenshots.

I doubt we will agree on many aspects of FO3, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy an exchange of ideas in a civil manner. If you don't like discussing this stuff, just say so and I will stop responding to your posts.

Wrong, it's far more than that. People don't seem to understand that a game is more than just "story", it's the sum of it's parts, which is precisely why good gameplay mechanics are integral to having a good game. This is incidentally why I've written off FO3, because the original outstanding mechanics have been changed drastically according to that article in the gaming rag. Gameplay isn't just an afterthought, it's a key part to what makes a game and moreso a series successful. Look at the X-com games and how they went downhill after the first two.

In my personal opinion (this whole paragraph is personal opinion), some of the original FO gameplay mechanics were good, but some were not so good. SPECIAL was excellent. Action points were decent, though I thought the Infinity Engine did a better job with combat. FO NPC control was horrible. Inventory control was very poor. The dithering effect when behind obscuring structures was inadequate. The wasteland travel and random encounter systems were primitive and unimaginative. All of these negative things can be improved on radically (in my opinion) and so I think that all of them could be abandoned for completely new gameplay mechanics and actively improve the game. Just because one system worked well doesn't mean another system won't work even better.

Whacker

06-18-2007, 20:12

I just did. It's called the Living Economy mod. Merchants have fixed amounts of cash and the run out. The more of an item a merchant has, the less money he will buy it for and vice versa (supply and demand). I don't have a link for it because I'm at work, but it should be very easy to find at any Oblivion modding website. It's even built-in to OOO.

That's a new one to me, duly noted.

I don't know the name of them off the top of my head, but there are several built-in to OOO as well. Flora and Fauna something or other? There's a ton of alchemy stuff out there that will mimic any and all game effects.

Mimicing game effects is one thing, sure. I guess my point is that I'd like to see the alchemy system changed entirely back to the way it worked in Morrowind, save perhaps a few interface improvements. I am not aware of anything that does this, and as I said before, if YOU do, please let me know as I would very much like to take a look.

So what's the alternative, removing all voicing from the game?

Happy medium always. Having SOME speech is good and even to be expected. Major cutscenes, major plot events, etc, sure all those definitely I could see having voiceovers. Morrowind did a decent, but by not means perfect, job at this. The key is to make the major points interesting yet not make it so that fan-made content is not going to clash noticably with the original content, and so that new major content can be added in such a manner that it also blends in smoothly. This is where Oblivion falls flat on it's face because of that inherent limitation.

While I certainly wish there was a great deal more text and speech options, I personally think that the text sounds good when it is spoken. I really, really, really want them to add far more text than they did in Oblivion

We are of one mind here, absolutely no disagreement.

, but why does that mean they have to take out the voiced parts to make it mesh?

They don't have to remove it all, just make it far more balanced. See my response to your earlier point above.

This is out of line. My comment was not an attack on you by any means. it was make a differentiation between the content of the game and the game engine. Please re-read my words.

I swear that nothing I am writing is a personal attack on you. Please do not take it that way. If you feel attacked by anything I have written, then I fervently apologize for it. I like responding to your posts because you have a lot of interesting things to say about Fallout and I enjoy discussing them. Your posts have made this a far more interesting thread than simply links to new screenshots.

I doubt we will agree on many aspects of FO3, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy an exchange of ideas in a civil manner. If you don't like discussing this stuff, just say so and I will stop responding to your posts.

Freely given, freely accepted. My apologies for my harsh reaction, but I couldn't think of any other way to take it as such. Perhaps I need to stop spending time in the backroom, there are a lot of very angry people back there. :dizzy2:

In my personal opinion (this whole paragraph is personal opinion), some of the original FO gameplay mechanics were good, but some were not so good. SPECIAL was excellent.

Singing the same song we are.

Action points were decent, though I thought the Infinity Engine did a better job with combat.

Meh, Bioware did a good job with making their engines work smoothly in their games. Real turn-based still has it's appeal and place. This is perhaps where we diverge in that I don't think anything other than REAL turn-based works or meshes well with the FO setting.

FO NPC control was horrible. Inventory control was very poor. The dithering effect when behind obscuring structures was inadequate.

Preaching to the choir my friend. In fact you are dead wrong, inventory control was/is mind-numbingly aggravating. And I swear I almost had an aneurism trying to keep Dogmeat alive in the Military base.

The wasteland travel and random encounter systems were primitive and unimaginative.

Partially disagree here. Primitive... meh, by today's standards sure. Unimaginative? Are you nuts?? The Monty Python skits in FO2 had me laughing so hard my wife came in to see what I was making a racket about. The random encounter system worked fine, and in such a manner that it seriously discouraged exploring certain areas unless you'd worked getting better gear and stats. I still got my tookiss handed to me at lvl 21 with HPA near the military base, when I was jumped every 1cm by a full band of super mutes, all carrying chainguns and rocket launchers.

All of these negative things can be improved on radically (in my opinion) and so I think that all of them could be abandoned for completely new gameplay mechanics and actively improve the game. Just because one system worked well doesn't mean another system won't work even better.

Well said, but the other side of the coin is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think this is largely one of my major problems with Bethesda in general, in that they now seem to have a very arrogant mindset that everything they touch will be gold after their Oblivion success, and they can ignore canon and precedent completely because "that previous stuff is old and busted". The sad thing is, they have enough of a fanbase at this point that the game probably will sell just fine if not well, and they'll be sure to buy absolutely glowing reviews from the major sites to "validate" this. I guess the other bit to that is they keep seeming to think they can redefine certain aspects of established genres because their sales successes 'gave them the right to'. I admittedly have not played any of their previous games except Morrowind and Oblivion, but it seems to me and others that they've firmly decided to go down the route of making action games and "deep" FPS's, and abandoning their roots of making more traditional RPG's. This in of itself doesn't bother me at all, as I said it's the fact that they have the arrogance to say "Oh it's definitely an RPG because we say it is" re: whatever product they are making, when in reality it couldn't be further from that. /shrug Take all that as you will and with a requisite amount of salt. :grin:

TinCow

06-18-2007, 21:13

In the interests of candor, I will state again something I have said before: I am good friends with two Bethsoft employees. I would be lying if I said this didn't influence me. In fact, I'm actually pretty biased in their favor and everything I say needs to be taken with that in mind. To be fair, I had been a big fan of Bethsoft games before I even met them, but knowing people behind the product has had an impact. Perhaps I defend them more than I should as a result.

Happy medium always. Having SOME speech is good and even to be expected. Major cutscenes, major plot events, etc, sure all those definitely I could see having voiceovers. Morrowind did a decent, but by not means perfect, job at this. The key is to make the major points interesting yet not make it so that fan-made content is not going to clash noticably with the original content, and so that new major content can be added in such a manner that it also blends in smoothly. This is where Oblivion falls flat on it's face because of that inherent limitation.

This was actually the first thing I said to the first of the Bethsoft guys I met. "Why did you cut down on the text?!" I was disappointed in the answer: upper level managed decided that voice sells, especially on consoles, and thus everything has to be voiced. I was very disappointed with the drastic cutback in text from ES3 to ES 4. Last week one of the Bethsoft guys asked me my opinion on the Game Insider preview. It was a mixed and hopeful response, but I really ranted about my fears about putting Oblivion's limited dialog into FO3. FO were dialog based games for me and I am seriously concerned that the voice-only policy will really limit FO3. I'm hoping that they will realize this and instead pay a lot more money to the actors to voice several times the quantity of dialog that they did in Oblivion.

Meh, Bioware did a good job with making their engines work smoothly in their games. Real turn-based still has it's appeal and place. This is perhaps where we diverge in that I don't think anything other than REAL turn-based works or meshes well with the FO setting.

Yeah, definitely a difference of opinion here. For RPGs, I separate the combat from the storyline. It's odd, but many CRPGs end up more as strategy games than true RPGs. That's probably one of the reasons I like them so much. That said, I find an engrossing story just as compelling as a good strategy game. Morrowind is the perfect example. The combat was pretty boring, especially when you hit high levels. I played that game for more hours than I can count, but it was never for the combat. I felt the same way about Vampire: Bloodlines. By comparison, I also loved Icewind Dale 1 & 2, which were not really RPGs at all. They were dungeon hacking tactical games and I enjoyed them at that level.

The way I feel about Fallout can be explained by my feelings about Fallout Tactics (which I'm currently replaying). Ignoring the storyline and violations of canon, the actual game itself is interesting and entertaining right up to the point where it moves off into robot-o-doom. At that point it quickly becomes boring for me because it leaves the wrecked towns, the inhabited wasteland, the struggle for normalcy in a post-apocalyptic world, and it simply becomes Fallout style combat in a different setting. I lose interest because I miss the atmosphere which I associate with Fallout. I've never seen a Fallout game with the atmosphere but without the combat, so I don't know for sure if I would like that, but I suspect that what I really enjoy most is simply the wasteland existence.

I liked Morrowind and Oblivion because I liked living in the world they created. They're definitely not the most entertaining games if you're looking for specific objectives or goals, but I realized that early on and stopped trying to find them. In contrast, I also enjoyed Doom 3 a great deal, far more than most other people did it seems. I knew from the start what it was good at and played it with those strengths in mind. I only played at night, turned off all the lights, pumped up my sound, and sat really close to the monitor. I then enjoyed what was essentially the computer game equivalent of a haunted house. I will probably never play the game a second time, but I loved it for what it was: an experience.

Partially disagree here. Primitive... meh, by today's standards sure. Unimaginative? Are you nuts?? The Monty Python skits in FO2 had me laughing so hard my wife came in to see what I was making a racket about. The random encounter system worked fine, and in such a manner that it seriously discouraged exploring certain areas unless you'd worked getting better gear and stats. I still got my tookiss handed to me at lvl 21 with HPA near the military base, when I was jumped every 1cm by a full band of super mutes, all carrying chainguns and rocket launchers.

LOL, I wasn't criticizing the actual special encounters, just the general ones and the manner in which they occurred (running around on the world map and clicking yes or no depending on your outdoorsman skill). I love the pop culture references in all their ridiculous glory. When I said unimaginative, I'm talking about your 37th encounter with bootleggers fighting slavers.

Well said, but the other side of the coin is that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." I think this is largely one of my major problems with Bethesda in general, in that they now seem to have a very arrogant mindset that everything they touch will be gold after their Oblivion success, and they can ignore canon and precedent completely because "that previous stuff is old and busted". The sad thing is, they have enough of a fanbase at this point that the game probably will sell just fine if not well, and they'll be sure to buy absolutely glowing reviews from the major sites to "validate" this. I guess the other bit to that is they keep seeming to think they can redefine certain aspects of established genres because their sales successes 'gave them the right to'. I admittedly have not played any of their previous games except Morrowind and Oblivion, but it seems to me and others that they've firmly decided to go down the route of making action games and "deep" FPS's, and abandoning their roots of making more traditional RPG's. This in of itself doesn't bother me at all, as I said it's the fact that they have the arrogance to say "Oh it's definitely an RPG because we say it is" re: whatever product they are making, when in reality it couldn't be further from that. /shrug Take all that as you will and with a requisite amount of salt. :grin:

What I take from this is that you think they're guilty of false advertising. I have to agree with you on this because it's true. Their marketing department does one heck of a job. It would definitely be nice if they just straight out said what they where making. The secrecy is designed to focus more and more attention on the game. While that works wonders in driving up publicity, it inevitably disappoints people who interpreted their ambiguous words wrongly. I think there would be far fewer hostile feelings towards them if they would simply say "We're making a first person game in the Fallout universe. We're making a storyline that we think is fun but which doesn't mesh 100% with canon. We're abandoning most of the Fallout combat system because it doesn't mesh with our engine." If they did that, then people who didn't like the sound of the game would go away and ignore it and those who did would stick around. Everyone wins, but the sales are probably a bit lower. :thumbsdown:

Xiahou

06-18-2007, 21:50

Things such as removing the obnoxious influence gameActually, that was one of the first mods I got. That mini-game was very anti-immersion imo, so I was glad to see a mod replace it.

Whacker

06-19-2007, 00:13

In the interests of candor, I will state again something I have said before: I am good friends with two Bethsoft employees. I would be lying if I said this didn't influence me. In fact, I'm actually pretty biased in their favor and everything I say needs to be taken with that in mind. To be fair, I had been a big fan of Bethsoft games before I even met them, but knowing people behind the product has had an impact. Perhaps I defend them more than I should as a result.
Hah, we're very much alike, I also have several friends "in the biz." What's even funnier is they've worked exclusively on games that I hate. One of them worked on Ghost Recon, and we already had the time-honored "Why Operation Flashpoint was a bazillion times better than Ghost Recon" argument a few times. I guess the sticking point is, can you criticize your friend's company and games (heavily even) from a more "professional" standpoint, aka as the gamer/customer, without them getting offended personally as a friend?

This was actually the first thing I said to the first of the Bethsoft guys I met. "Why did you cut down on the text?!" I was disappointed in the answer: upper level managed decided that voice sells, especially on consoles, and thus everything has to be voiced.
Bah, "Upper management" and the Marketing types are squarely to blame for the mind numbing lack of originality in terms of gaming today. Don't even get me started on the whole "Why consoles are partially to blame for the dumbing down of gaming"...

In contrast, I also enjoyed Doom 3 a great deal, far more than most other people did it seems. I knew from the start what it was good at and played it with those strengths in mind. I only played at night, turned off all the lights, pumped up my sound, and sat really close to the monitor. I then enjoyed what was essentially the computer game equivalent of a haunted house. I will probably never play the game a second time, but I loved it for what it was: an experience.
I also enjoyed the :daisy: out of Doom 3, whereas a good deal of my friends thought it was mindless trash (go figure....). The key, as you so well pointed out, was to LET yourself be immersed. It was kinda hard to play it at night w/my headphones on, and my poor dog almost gave me a heart attack at one point when she came into my room unseen and nosed my leg. Also I was... erm... "inebriated" and on Teamspeak with a few friends when I finally got to Hell, that was almost a religious experience in of itself. They told me the next morning all I kept saying was "Oh... my... gawd...." and making various quotes from Event Horizon.

As for Morrowind and Oblivion, my view is that Morrowind offered a much deeper game to immerse oneself in. There were levels of complexity and enough storyline and diverse tasks to provide for a feeling of just how big the overall world was and how much there was to do. Oblivion didn't give me that whatsoever, it was basically a pretty setting to run around and kill stuff with fire. The "wow this looks great" factor tends to wear off with me very quickly with games, usually within an hour or two, at which point I start to concentrate on the story and mechanics, esp. in RPGs. This was when I started down the dark path of indifference leading up to rejection.

When I said unimaginative, I'm talking about your 37th encounter with bootleggers fighting slavers.
Putting it that way, I'd have to agree wholehearted with you there. There wasn't a heck of a lot of variety in that area, esp. in FO1. FO2 helped that a bit, but not much.

What I take from this is that you think they're guilty of false advertising. I have to agree with you on this because it's true.
I guess to simplify it, in principle yes that's a fair way to paraphrase it. It's not really that they do it, it's that they are doing it with a very neglected, dying genre that I am having withdrawl from. Sadly that's now what I tend to expect from the PR types at publishers and studios; nothing but pure BS and hype as opposed to real, well thought-out, and meaningful attempts to portray their products. Pretty much all you need these days is a large chested female brandishing a gun and a sword, making a messy headshot on critter A while simultaneously decapitating critter B in some action-packed setting, swearing up a storm while doing so, with huge explosions in the background.

Their marketing department does one heck of a job. It would definitely be nice if they just straight out said what they where making.
I'd have to disagree with you here, I think their marketing department is one of the worst in the business today. I share the general opinion with quite a few others that Todd and Pete are egotistical morons, and the gaming industry is suffering indirectly from the PR nonsense they are pulling now with FO3 and with Oblivion. Seriously, "Soil erosion"? There was(is?) a large compilation of quotes and sales bits made from the time leading up to Oblivion, and comparing them against what the actual product had. While many of them are indeed subjective, it's not hard to see overall that almost every single one of them was one of 1. blatant lie, 2. extremely inaccurate, or 3. gross exaggeration. Stunts and regular behavior like this means it's not hard to realize why so few of us take these people seriously anymore. If I can find the link to that bit, I'll PM it to you, it's at least good for a laugh even if you may not agree. :beam:

The secrecy is designed to focus more and more attention on the game. While that works wonders in driving up publicity, it inevitably disappoints people who interpreted their ambiguous words wrongly. I think there would be far fewer hostile feelings towards them if they would simply say "We're making a first person game in the Fallout universe. We're making a storyline that we think is fun but which doesn't mesh 100% with canon. We're abandoning most of the Fallout combat system because it doesn't mesh with our engine." If they did that, then people who didn't like the sound of the game would go away and ignore it and those who did would stick around. Everyone wins, but the sales are probably a bit lower. :thumbsdown:
Exactly, dead on. The all encompassing absolute bottom line, profit. There was an editorial bit written not too long ago about the general state of gaming today, and how publishers will generally strive to maximize sales, and will 'dumb down'/simplify/whatever you want to call it to their games in order to try to reach the largest number of buyers. It made complete sense to me, I mean look at the market for REAL simulation games and even RPGs right now, it's pretty thin to almost non-existent. Heck look at what CA is doing with the TW series... The gist of the article was that despite this overall trend, there are still good numbers of gamers in all respective genres that would make putting together a 'niche' game a very viable prospect financially. The obvious problem is that while it would sell, it wouldn't sell say as good as Madden 2k8 or whatever, and hence why the Execs/Marketing types would do their utmost to force the product back into that generic Let's Try To Please Everyone role. Again it all makes sense to me, it'd be real nice to see someone take that to heart and take the plunge. Perhaps it's just me being obstinate and refusing to believe/accept that real RPG players and flight sim fanatics are a dying breed. :embarassed:

Whacker

06-19-2007, 00:14

Actually, that was one of the first mods I got. That mini-game was very anti-immersion imo, so I was glad to see a mod replace it.

I would love to have a link to such a critter if you could provide one good sir.

Xiahou

06-19-2007, 00:54

I would love to have a link to such a critter if you could provide one good sir.
I think this (http://www.tessource.net/files/file.php?id=5403) is the one I DL'ed.

Here's the summary:

This mod gets rid of the persuasion mini-game in Oblivion and replaces it with a system that is more realistic and better balanced. I feel that the current system is deficient in a number of ways:
- It's relatively easy to raise someone's disposition at or near 100 with only an average speechcraft skill, making it nearly pointless to raise this skill to its highest level.
- While the security mini-game simulates picking a lock, the persuasion game is a completely abstract exercise in lining up rotating wedges. You must say the same things to every character, and your success is only dependent on the order in which you say them. R-i-i-i-ight.
- Persuasion as implemented leaves little room for role playing. You must coerce, boast, admire and joke with every person you meet, regardless of your character's personality and values, or the type of person you are talking to.

Instead, this mod implements persuasion through regular dialogue. You are free to pick any option you want, and either try the same one over and over or alternate between many. Each time you pick an option, you have a base chance of success based on your speechcraft skill. Then, your chances are modified based on the current disposition of the NPC. The higher their disposition, the harder it is to raise it further. Finally, each option has an individual modifier based on a number of factors (see the Modifiers section below), making it easier or harder to use that option with a particular NPC. For instance, you will have a much easier time coercing a farmer than you will the Arena Grand Champion, and the burly Nord in the local tavern will be more impressed by your boasting than will the Countess of Chorrol, etc. In this way, there is some amount of player skill and role playing required for successful persuasion rather than randomly clicking options.:2thumbsup:

TinCow

06-19-2007, 19:20

...

I shall respond to that post in a new thread, since I don't want to pull the FO3 thread off-topic.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=87427

Bob the Insane

06-19-2007, 22:53

The way I feel about Fallout can be explained by my feelings about Fallout Tactics (which I'm currently replaying). Ignoring the storyline and violations of canon, the actual game itself is interesting and entertaining right up to the point where it moves off into robot-o-doom. At that point it quickly becomes boring for me because it leaves the wrecked towns, the inhabited wasteland, the struggle for normalcy in a post-apocalyptic world, and it simply becomes Fallout style combat in a different setting. I lose interest because I miss the atmosphere which I associate with Fallout. I've never seen a Fallout game with the atmosphere but without the combat, so I don't know for sure if I would like that, but I suspect that what I really enjoy most is simply the wasteland existence.

I really have to agree with you there, it a flavour/atmosphere thing to me more than a mechanics thing (though the dialog system will be of huge importance)... I want to revisit that world and I am not too concerned about the perspective I am viewing it from when I get there...

To be honest I got the first tingling of the "Where has the Wateland gone" right at the end of FO2 (though the RPG elements persisted of course, it did not totally devolve into a big tech fight)... And now in Tactics it is fine while you are out and about on missions, but it feels too sterile back at the bunker and by the sound of it that will only get worse...

Lemur

06-24-2007, 03:55

Who are we kidding? Unless the reviews are gawd-awful, we all know we're going to buy and play it. Stop pretending you won't, you're only hurting yourself.

Whacker

06-24-2007, 06:45

Who are we kidding? Unless the reviews are gawd-awful, we all know we're going to buy and play it. Stop pretending you won't, you're only hurting yourself.

Honestly I can't tell if you were kidding or not mate, but in all seriousness I am most definitely not going to be getting/playing this game based on the current information we have. Disco has already been telling me the exact same thing in the chat for a week or more now, and it's not working as I think he'd like it to. :grin:

discovery1

06-24-2007, 07:02

Honestly I can't tell if you were kidding or not mate, but in all seriousness I am most definitely not going to be getting/playing this game based on the current information we have. Disco has already been telling me the exact same thing in the chat for a week or more now, and it's not working as I think he'd like it to. :grin:

The first stage is denial.

Lehesu

06-24-2007, 14:12

I probably won't buy it, and I don't have any huge expectations for the game. I loved Morrowind to death and Bethesda lost a lot of rep with me over Oblivion. I fear that they, much like Creative Assembly, have sold out to the lowest common denominator of customers.

Lemur

07-02-2007, 06:06

Something's in the air, and that means that Fallout 3 previews are popping up like zits on a teenaged face. Here's a sampling:

Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pages/gamespace/updates.php?pid=918428&sid=6173397&tag=topslot%3Btitle%3B1&om_act=convert&om_clk=topslot&page=1)

Shacknews (http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=411)

Games Radar (http://www.gamesradar.com/us/pc/game/previews/article.jsp?releaseId=20070327151320531089&articleId=2007062916501630017&sectionId=1001&pageId=20070629165212818036)

Destructoid (http://www.destructoid.com/pew-pew-preview-fallout-3-34063.phtml#ext)

Critical Hits (http://www.critical-hits.com/?p=898)

Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/01/joystiq-first-look-fallout-3/)

Next-Gen (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6215&Itemid=2)

There's more, but I'm getting tired of typing them. Stop pretending you won't play this game. You're only hurting yourself.

Orb

07-02-2007, 21:29

Lemur-san, you are mistaken.

Whether or not I (certainly) would buy this game, my computer doubtless won't run it, thus inuring me to disappointment.

Bob the Insane

07-03-2007, 13:42

From the Gamespot preview - Weapons and armor will deteriorate with use, but you'll be able to restore them by using your character's repair skill along with duplicate versions of whatever you're repairing. In other words, you can cannibalize parts from one item to fix another, as long as they're identical. You can't strip parts from a pistol to repair an assault rifle; you have to have the same version of assault rifle. As weapons break down, their capabilities worsen. For example, the weapon's rate of fire will slow, its accuracy will decrease, and so on. Having a fully restored weapon versus one that's falling apart is like the difference between night and day. Or, you can create your own weapons from various parts.

Sounds like the deteriorating and reparing of weapons will be a little more involved and logical than the "bang it with a hammer" approach of Oblivion...

Lemur

07-14-2007, 07:07

There's so much news coming out so fast, I was getting a little dizzy trying to track it all down and decipher the meanings. And the longstanding Fallout boards are just, well, mean. They're lovers who've been spurned so often that all of their affection has metastasized into hate.

So I found a neat little Fallout blog (http://fallout3.wordpress.com/) that's doing a good job of posting the relevant new info as it emerges. Thought I'd share.

Phatose

07-19-2007, 04:50

Well, with all due fairness, the meanness of the fallout boards lately is as much because of the number of people who've decided to come in and start flaming. They're certainly opinionated on a normal basis, but as of late they're also the bear people can't seem to poke enough with the stick.

As for the game itself, most of what they've shown so far has potential. Unfortunately, it's pretty much universally potential to be great, but also potential to stink to high holy heaven.

After being burned twice with Morrowind and Oblivion, I'm expecting it to be an 'eventually pick it up when it hits the $19.99 mark'. I'd rather hope for a used game, since at least that way I'm not putting any cash into Bethesda's coffers before I know if it's gonna suck or not, but used PC games are very hard to find anymore.

If the duck and cover and NMA guys give it raving reviews, then I'd probably buy full price. But they won't. And the rest of the gaming media and community...well, they talked me into Oblivion, so I don't trust them much.

TinCow

07-19-2007, 14:04

They're certainly opinionated on a normal basis, but as of late they're also the bear people can't seem to poke enough with the stick.

This is very true. I still find myself reading NMA a couple times a week for the 'gawk-factor.' Why is that? What is so compelling about that group that draws people to watch it even when they don't really care about what the people are arguing about?

Whacker

07-20-2007, 19:06

This is very true. I still find myself reading NMA a couple times a week for the 'gawk-factor.' Why is that? What is so compelling about that group that draws people to watch it even when they don't really care about what the people are arguing about?
Because some of us actually agree with some or all of what they are saying. The hard truth and reality of it is that the Fallout franchise and games have survived only because of the hardcore fans like them, not through other developer's attempts at actively destroying the game. Witness FOB(P)OS.

The problem is twofold as I see it, and neither trumps the other.

First, you have the 'hardcore' Fallout types, of which a few vocal minority ruin it for the rest of us. These few are extremely rude, condescending, and do nothing but flame and complain loudly and the most extravagant manner possible. You want to see a real jerk? Look up some posts by a guy named "Roshambo" on the NMA and RPGcodex forums. He epitomizes everything that is wrong with us self-identified 'old school' types.

Second, you have the hideous amounts of incredibly ignorant and equally as obnoxious and loud Bethesda Fanboys©. If anything these guys annoy me more, because Fanboyism in any shape or form is the bane of my gaming existence. The deal is there seems to be far more of these people, and when you get these guys going with a good head of steam, it can often tend to draw the FPS crowd types that Beth has hooked with Oblivion right along with them, thus creating this hellish synergy. Combine this with the NMA rude types, and you've got a seething mass of sheer hatred and angst that can really destroy braincells of people who suffer through reading those posts. "Bethesda can do no wrong, You guys need to get with the times, Turn-based is old and busted, These are definitely RPGs and you guys have no clue even though you've been playing real RPGs since before quite a few of us were born", etc etc etc. It's all just one big mass of :rolleyes:.

My opinion hasn't changed one bit on this game since we finally started getting info. I was hopefully skeptical, then disgusted when my fears were realized. No turn-based combat, SPECIAL appears to have been gutted contrary to what many say, just like what Beth did with Arena to Daggerfall to Morrowind to Oblivion, and instead of super mutants we have something that resembles The Hulk Meets A Cave Troll, coupled with the super mega awesome Nukuler Warhead Launcher. As I still say, more power to the folks who look forward to this game and can possibly enjoy it. It's definitely off my radar though.

Lemur

07-20-2007, 21:40

Well, with all due fairness, the meanness of the fallout boards lately is as much because of the number of people who've decided to come in and start flaming.

Second, you have the hideous amounts of incredibly ignorant and equally as obnoxious and loud Bethesda Fanboys©.
I'm sure the Bethesda fanbois are a pain, but please, I gotta call both of you on this. The Fallout fan boards were brimming with hate long, long before Bethesda was even rumored to be purchasing the rights to Fallout. If some clueless Oblivion-loving fellows have made themselves convenient targets, well, that's too bad for them, isn't it?

But the hate and anger go a lot deeper, and are much older than what you're implying. Heck, I remember how ugly things were getting on the Interplay boards around the time of Fallout Tactics. This is an old anger, a deep, entrenched grudge. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if, upon their deaths, some of the haters from NMA begin coming back to hate from the dead. It will all be very J-horror, you know, "Play this web game and ten days later you die."

Bob the Insane

07-20-2007, 21:52

All this talk has made me dig out the old Oblivion for the PC and get some of those mods in... With something to kill the leveling system it works much better... And with a better system that prevented you being the holiest holy and the evilest evil at the same time and better definied NPCs it would have been a way better RPG experience IMO...

As they have basically promised these items for Fallout 3 I don't think it is all doom and gloom as long as you can deal with the whole FPS nature of the gameplay...

Phatose

07-21-2007, 05:27

I'm sure the Bethesda fanbois are a pain, but please, I gotta call both of you on this. The Fallout fan boards were brimming with hate long, long before Bethesda was even rumored to be purchasing the rights to Fallout. If some clueless Oblivion-loving fellows have made themselves convenient targets, well, that's too bad for them, isn't it?

But the hate and anger go a lot deeper, and are much older than what you're implying. Heck, I remember how ugly things were getting on the Interplay boards around the time of Fallout Tactics. This is an old anger, a deep, entrenched grudge. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if, upon their deaths, some of the haters from NMA begin coming back to hate from the dead. It will all be very J-horror, you know, "Play this web game and ten days later you die."

There are definitely some very pissed off, nearly insane fallout fanboys out there, who have been for a long time. And, well, if FO2 wasn't FO enough to please these guys, then between FOT, BoS, and FO3, they're gonna be nuts.

Find me a community without a psycho or two and I'll show you a very small community.

It's just these days, even the more mild of the Fallout Fans are being aggravated for sport. It's more then just the extremists. It's the entire community. And while there are certainly Bethesda fanboys who are there just to preach, there are also plenty of people there who really have no stake in the matter whatsoever who are just there because they heard fallout fans were all nuts and want to throw the rock at the hornets nests.

Repeat this everywhere on the net, and the entire community is gonna be on edge.

@Bob:

Well, they haven't actually promised to kill the leveling system. It's been altered so at to not be so far reaching, but "fit zone to player level" is still in there.

TB666

07-21-2007, 10:11

Well, they haven't actually promised to kill the leveling system. It's been altered so at to not be so far reaching, but "fit zone to player level" is still in there.
And where have you read that ??
I know that they said that level scaling is gone and just like in Fallout there are areas that you can't enter if you are too low-level.

TinCow

07-21-2007, 14:59

Because some of us actually agree with some or all of what they are saying. The hard truth and reality of it is that the Fallout franchise and games have survived only because of the hardcore fans like them, not through other developer's attempts at actively destroying the game. Witness FOB(P)OS.

That doesn't explain it at all. How can the reason behind my interest be "some of us actually agree" when I don't agree? It seems to me to be more of a Jerry Springeresque episode in text form. It's not actually interesting, but it's too mesmerizing to turn away.

And sorry, but I most certainly do not agree that the Fallout franchise has survived because of hardcore fans like them. If anything, I would say it has survived in spite of them. If the franchise had truly survived because of them, it would have survived in the original FO1/FO2 format. We are now three games and a decade past that, with nothing even approaching a return to the original format at all. The only attempt at doing it (Van Buren) was canceled.

No, Fallout has survived simply because the underlying concept was so damned good that it is consistently appealing, in whatever form it takes. Fallout is still alive today because of the stylish post-apoc setting that it embodies, not because of action points.

Bob the Insane

07-21-2007, 21:56

And where have you read that ??
I know that they said that level scaling is gone and just like in Fallout there are areas that you can't enter if you are too low-level.

He is right, it is referenced in the blog linked above...

Areas of the world that you have not entered yet level up with the player as a whole within limited parameters (minimum and maximum levels I guess) until you enter that area at which point it's overall level is locked and will not change should you return later with your now higher level character...

Kind of maintain the challenge, but still having initially dangerous places and preventing bandits appearing in the best gear... Sort of have your cake and eat it... Will have to see if it works...

Finally, I totally agree with TinCow's summary on the popularity of the setting of Fallout rather than the mechanics...

Phatose

07-22-2007, 06:01

And where have you read that ??
I know that they said that level scaling is gone and just like in Fallout there are areas that you can't enter if you are too low-level.

http://fallout3.wordpress.com/2007/07/14/desslock-explains-level-scaling-on-fallout-3/

As for why fallout's alive, it's not mechanics or setting.
It's just that using somebodies existing world was cheaper then making up a new one. It's not the special romance of fallout, or the dedication of fans to SPECIAL, or the setting or the ambiance or anything.

They could've bought a road warrior license, or made up their own post-apoc setting. This was cheaper. They're obviously not gunning for the existing fanbase, so it's not like they're trying to cash in on the warm and fuzzy feeling people get from the name.

It's that Interplay was having a fire sale, and Bethesda felt like diversifying. Nothing more then that.

Lemur

07-22-2007, 06:18

They could've bought a road warrior license, or made up their own post-apoc setting. This was cheaper.
What a strange thing to say. They paid a good deal of money for the license, and they could have gotten rights to Wasteland for much less. There are tons of post-apocalypse books they could have plundered for less money. And how do you figure that doing their own take on the genre would be more expensive than paying a few million for an existing property?

I mean, hey, dump on Bethesda all you like, but try to make sense when you do so.

Phatose

07-22-2007, 18:04

How much do you think a skilled designer or team of designers to fully develop a brand new IP, that has to be marketable and usable in a game, is going to cost?

They've got to create the entire world, smooth out incosistencies, create a style and theme, populate it in a way that won't have lawyers for other post apoc IP looking for a lawsuit, while at the same time ensuring it's going to be usable in a game and marketable?

Developing a new IP ain't cheap. Even getting an underdeveloped one up to snuff is going to cost quite a bit. This is the root of why people buy IP to begin with, or license other peoples.

Bob the Insane

07-24-2007, 13:11

I think we may be forgeting the geek factor... I mean the accounts at Bethsoft may not be geeks but the project management surely is and many of the programmers and there is plently of Kudos in the gaming world associated with a name like Fallout...

Lemur

07-24-2007, 22:02

Developing a new IP ain't cheap. Even getting an underdeveloped one up to snuff is going to cost quite a bit. This is the root of why people buy IP to begin with, or license other peoples.
Well, this is all a bit meaningless without some real data to back up your claims. Who says they have to have skilled designers? Why can't they hire hacks? If they're as cost-conscious as you assert, I can't see why they wouldn't. There are plenty of ways to cut corners and lower costs. BMX-XXX (http://www.mobygames.com/game/bmx-xxx) is a prime example. No expensive design involved.

Your assertion that paying several million dollars for a ten-year-old IP was done for cost savings is kinda out there, and unless you can find some data to support it, I'm gonna have to walk away whistling.

Whacker

07-24-2007, 22:45

Not only that, they purchased an IP with a large fanbase that is openly hostile to them. And there's not "only a few of them" (us, since Beth isn't on my good side lately?) either, despite what some may think.

AntiochusIII

07-25-2007, 00:35

Oi, people! Let the game come out first before setting it on fire will ya?

I'm not keeping high hopes because high hopes always disappoint me :P Will be waiting 'round here for word of mouth from fellow Org members before jumping the gun, but if it's not going to be world-shattering stellar then at least it probably won't be too bad...unless you go in with an attitude of "this is gonna sucks no matter what" which I suspect some of you already take.

As a never-played-Fallout-in-my-life outsider I have to agree with TB666 however, I don't think Bethesda was trying to "save" money by buying a game franchise at a seven digits price; after all, they seem to do just fine with their Elder Scrolls franchise even though the latest installment, Oblivion, is really just Generic Fantasy Storyline 101 at its core. Rather, I think it's because Fallout sounds so cool. Post Apocalyptic world RPG's -- set in California no less, and with the 50's atmosphere -- aren't very common this side of the Pacific. You've got to be pretty good to make it work in a Western RPG really.

TB666

07-25-2007, 15:04

Post Apocalyptic world RPG's -- set in California no less, and with the 50's atmosphere -- aren't very common this side of the Pacific. You've got to be pretty good to make it work in a Western RPG really.
Well Fallout 3 will be set on the east coast if I remember correctly.
However saying that the are saving money by buying the rights to fallout 3 is a bit strange.
They spent alot of money getting the license and it would have been cheaper for them to make their own post-apocalyptic world.
Of course it would be alot more work for them to create the background story, design, animals and other critters etc which they get with the fallout license.

But agree, let's wait until the game comes out before bashing it.
It may turn out to be a good sequel or may turn out bad.
I guess that's what makes it interesting and I will try to keep an open mind about things.

Lemur

08-29-2007, 06:46

NMA snuck two reporters into a walkthrough Bethesda held in Germany. Sweet! Full article here (http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=38620).

NMA's staff covering this consists of Brother None (referred to as "I" in the preview) and SuAside, both of whom applied for the demo showing in name of another media company: Brother None thanks to GamerNode, SuAside thanks to MadShrimps.be. Silencer, who applied in the name of NMA, was turned down with no reason given (though it is worth noting he applied last, a day after Brother None's appointment was finalized). SuAside saw the demo Friday at 12:00, Brother None at 14:00, so details vary and it will be noted in the walkthrough when they do significantly. At no point in the demo or Q&A did NMA's staff identify themselves as from NMA.

Those sneaky fellas. Kudos!

TinCow

08-29-2007, 19:19

Those two NMA guys did a remarkably good job of being objective and I salute them for reporting things exactly as they saw it. I really do not see much bias at all in their recounting of events... it's simply what they saw. The summary is far more biased, but it's an expression of how they feel, so that's to be expected. Even so, I agree with much of what they said.

Fallout 3 looks like a well-produced, very pretty, very fun game that'll provide quite a few people with a lot of hours of enjoyment. However, I don't think it's anything more than a very pretty and fun game.

...

But what does that mean? Pretty much that we're looking at a pretty bland, uninspired game here, and that people expecting the next big break-through in RPGs or gaming in general to come from here should probably look the other way. And who knows how it'll hold up against competing RPG or RPG-like games in late 2008? Only time will tell. But suffice it to say that despite flashes of brilliances, I'm not overly impressed by this game, and hate to see a franchise tag that once stood for being so different now applied to something that is so humdrum and potentially dull.

I think this is spot on (except for the potentially dull comment). The more I read about it, the less I think it will really be a true 'Fallout' game. That said, I don't really see that as a negative. Sure, another isometric Fallout clone would be interesting, but I won't die without one. As long as it is a fun ride, it will be worth the ticket price.

Crazed Rabbit

08-30-2007, 00:27

Apparently, in the demo, a super mutant got his leg blown off with a .22 caliber bullet.

This is the size of a pistol that fires a .22:
http://www.conjay.com/_borders/NAA_LR_002.jpg

So I guess one must hope they still going to work on that, or maybe they're just exploding limb happy.

CR

econ21

08-30-2007, 00:35

Xiahou

08-30-2007, 00:55

Crazed Rabbit

08-30-2007, 06:16

I don't get these calibres. IIRC, in the original Fallouts, there was a hulking pistol called the .223 which did a lot of damage. A google search suggests that calibre is roughly equivalent to the 5.56mm NATO round. I'm not sure why an extra 0.003 should make a big difference. :shrug:

It's not the size so much as the power, in gunpowder, behind the bullet. The .223 is a bit longer, not just wider.

That gives the .223 much more kinetic energy than the .22.

The .223 is a rifle cartridge, but there are a few unique pistols that can fire it, and it would have much more power than a normal pistol round.

Here's a size comparison:
The .22 is on the left (well, a air gun pellet is on the extreme left), the .223 is in the middle (I'm not quite sure on the one on the right):
http://www.basc.org.uk/media/rifle_ammo.jpg

CR

TB666

08-30-2007, 14:54

Fallout 3 looks like a well-produced, very pretty, very fun game that'll provide quite a few people with a lot of hours of enjoyment. However, I don't think it's anything more than a very pretty and fun game.

And having a very pretty and fun game is bad ??:inquisitive:
All I look for in a game is a pretty and fun game.
I really don't know what the NMA people want and the more I read from them the more I get confirmed that they want something that has and never will happened.
Fallout series was suppose to be a fun game and that's all it is, a fun game.
Maybe one day they will realise this and stop looking for the messiah of gaming, stop worshipping their Fallout 2 cds and start enjoying the things that are here.
They might be surprised that there is alot of fun games out there, some that are even better then Fallout.

NMA: Is there more to supermutants than meets the eyes or are they just the evil enemy?

Pete Hines: There's definitely a backstory. Actually, people have been discussing this a lot, "what are supermutants doing on the East Coast," while the reason is a pretty good and simple one. We're kind of surprised nobody has figured it out yet.
So maybe my theory is true.
Someone on the east coast is copying the dude from Fallout 1.

doc_bean

08-30-2007, 15:03

And having a very pretty and fun game is bad ??:inquisitive:

I don't get it either.

You can't design the next big thing, if you try you just get Daikatana or (if you are a little more lucky) a Lionhead game. I'm glad they are focussing on making a good game instead of trying to make 'the next big thing'.

It's ironic that people hoping for 'the next big thing' are still worshipping a game made over a decade ago though. Something tells me they don't really want anything revolutionary.

TB666

08-30-2007, 15:15

Something tells me they don't really want anything revolutionary.
Thinks so too.
Slap a fallout 3 sticker on a Fallout 2 cd and they will be shouting over the roof-tops and praisng Beth's name.
Seriously, sometimes I wonder if they actually know what they want in the first place.
Kinda like those people afraid to do anything because the universe might implode.

Beth: Ok, let's change this
NMA: No no no no no no no don't touch it, for raptor-jesus's sake don't touch it.
Beth: Why not ??
NMA: I don't know just don't touch it
Beth: Well we gotta do something, can't just leave it like this.
NMA: yes we can
Beth: No we can't, let's atleast remove some of these bugs that makes the game crash every 30 minutes or so.
NMA: no no no no no, it's one of the main pillar of the game's gameplay.
Beth: What, getting booted to windows often ??
NMA: Yes, gives you a chance to admire your desktop wallpaper.
Beth: Ok, let's atleast add auto-save.
NMA: NO !!
Beth: *knocks NMA out*
Beth: Now, let's make us a sequel.

econ21

09-01-2007, 09:56

Just copying and pasting something from the Bioshock gameplay thread:

I love the iconography in both the city and the game menus... reminds me of Fallout 2... in fact this feels like an FPS version of it.

On reflection, I agree with Papewaio. Bioshock shows you could make a compelling Fallout style game in first person real time style. Bioshock is also a good example of keeping the essence of a title (from System Shock 2), but modernising it and improving it in some ways (the camera; the mini-map and quest directions; weapon balance).

I'm not sure Bethesda can pull something similar off with Fallout 3, but that's more to do with the content (e.g. I'm not keen on the sound of those mini-nuke explosions) than the game style.

Phatose

09-03-2007, 23:24

With all due respect, Bioshock has gotten a pretty big bye from the System Shock fans on account of being a spiritual successor, not a direct sequel. If it had been system shock 3, they'd be ripping into the core gameplay mercilessly. It has some steps forward, but also some leaps backward.

econ21

09-04-2007, 00:51

With all due respect, Bioshock has gotten a pretty big bye from the System Shock fans on account of being a spiritual successor, not a direct sequel.

Well, as with Fallout, "the fans" are not a monolithic bloc. But as it happens, you are right about one fan at least - I did write off Bioshock at first. The premise just did not sound nearly as engaging as that of System Shock. And I was worried it would be too much of a shooter, not a genuine spiritual successor. However, the info that came out over the last year raised my expectations - e.g. the video of the big daddy/little sisters, arguably the best aspect of the game - and I was pleasantly surprised to see them met by the full game.

It has some steps forward, but also some leaps backward.

Indeed. I think it is not as stellar as System Shock 2 (the logs don't grip me as much and the gameplay is not so scarey). But it is much closer to being a successor than I would have imagined prior to first playing it a week ago. If Fallout 3 stands in relation to Fallout 2 as Bioshock does in relation to System Shock 2, I think most reasonable fans would be happy. But I doubt it will (given that FO3 team is new to the series, whereas Bioshock was made by some of the SS2 team).

Slyspy

09-05-2007, 14:06

Too many Fallout fans posting at NMA believe that the things which make a Fallout came are the mechanics eg the isometric viewpoint, action points etc. I believe they are wrong. I believe that it is the setting which makes a Fallout game. If Bethseda can capture that then IMO they have made a Fallout game.

Mind you I enjoyed Fallout Tactics, a fact which would have NMA's most rabid, offensive trolls all over me in seconds. And that is just the moderating staff.

Phatose

09-06-2007, 02:45

Meh. I'd call it shortsighted to say it was just the setting or just the mechanics. It was both.

Sensei Warrior

09-06-2007, 06:41

I'd like to say I read all of this thread, which would not be true, but I had to say something. I am one of those CD worshipping Fallout Junkies. I've been waiting eons for another game in the saga. With that said, I guess I am also one of those nasty modernists who would be kicked under the bus at NMA for my radical tradition be damned ways.

What made Fallout so cool? Well let's take a trip back, back, back in time. <visualize swirliness here>

Let's see part of it was the mechanics, even though large parts of the mechanics were pretty generic. The Fallout System was largely based on G.U.R.P.S. If any of you old duffers remember when RPGs were actually played using Pencil and Paper (yes folks the Stone Age, and we walked uphill both ways to school ~;) ) and crawled away from D&D long enough to experience other RPG-ness then you might remember the system. The letters stand for Generic Universal RolePlaying System, just incase you youngins were curious. IIRC, (although much of it is muddled from the toxic fumes from acne medication I was forced to inhale from the throngs of geeky brethren I played with) Action Points, Perks and Traits and the like were (or could be) part of that system. Although a commonly used system in non D&D RPGs, Fallout was particularly adept at integrating it into the Fallout series and might have been the first computer RPG to use that system.

The story, sub-stories, and endings all lent to Fallout's overall feel. Add it to the post nuclear holocaust theme, which seemed to be uncommon for RPGs at that time, and the adult themes that were sprinkled in, gave Fallout a gritty feel. This wasn't your namby pamby elf dancing, mystical quest to save the world, and it sure wasn't your questionably male Japanimae RPG i'm a loner out to save the world even though I dont want to. Nope this was undoubtably grr, in your face, I'm goin out to find some spare parts, get friendly with another digitized character, drinking, shooting, stealin, blowin the bad guys to bit with my howitzer type game, and if I saved the world in the process ... well I promise it was purely by accident, heck I'm not even one of the good guys.

The was the cool little easter egg type things they did. Like boxing "The Masticator" who looked disturbingly alot like Mike 'I'll bite your ear off' Tyson, which incidentally happened in the game. There were all sorts of pop references like the card game 'Tragic the Gathering', and well tons more.

There was the 50s theme to it. The weirdly odd and old music, the clunky buttons, and dont forget your Pip-Boy 2000 (or whatever it was called). And who could forget Action Boy the little icon guy.

It was how all of it was wrapped up together which made the series so great. Now as for the 3rd being a FPS? Well, why not. There are certainly not to many turn based combat sequenced RPGs any more. There are also a staggeringly large amount of RPG-like action games out there. If any thing the FPS view will give the newest Fallout an even grittier feel.

As long as they capture some of the points that are uniquely Fallout, like the Action Boy, your Pip Screen, and the pop references, and a little adult mayhem, wrap it together with a solidly entertaining story plots, and reduce some of the previous Fallouts quirkiness, (dude where's the front of my car?) they'll probably have gone a good long way to updating, and preserving the Fallout series. We'll see.

Anyways, rant over. Did I have a point? No, I dont think so, I really just wanted to post on this thread (and admit to the fact that I once played Pen and Paper RPGS, and not always the standard ones either). I do hope it ends up being a fun, entertaining game.