Wedge formation ?

[Kobal2fr]

I never really used that feature in any of the TW games, to tell you the truth. I always understood it to mean "kill more guys on the initial charge, then say Sayonara to your cav if the target unit doesn't rout immediately", and I like to keep my cav alive on long campaigns :)

But after a simple test trying to use a wedge to obliterate a schiltron (in an otherwise straightforward battle : one unit of Chainmail Knights against one unit of renegade Militia Spearmen), I really wonder wether they have any kind of use in M2TW.

Twice I got a solid, couched lance charge on the schiltron, and twice I had the same result : the first three knights hit the spear formation and sent their targets flying, then the entire unit abruptly stops, leaving those 3 lads fighting for their lives. By comparison, a solid square formed charge destroyed half the schiltron and surrounded them.

Now, I assume the whole idea of the wedge charge is to penetrate the defending unit and cleave it right in twain, disorganizing it and allowing almost every knight in it to slash left and right (and get killed left and right as well). But assuming the whole charge halt isn't only related to the schiltron formation, and that wedges will always stop dead in their tracks when the first few knights have hit their marks... what's the frigging point of it ?

[Tambarskjelve]

I'm not too sure if that's the proper application of the formation.
I personally use it quite often, and with great success as a movement formation, as they retain formation and unit cohesion better weaving through the enemy, their ultimate goal being the rear of the enemy. Once they are in a favorable postion, I deploy in a line formation, and let the loose.

This might not be the correct, or intended way, but for me it works out well.

[WhiskeyGhost]

Use it to penetrate shallow lines, works well if you wanna get to those annoying archers, and don't wanna go around just to have those few spearmen units reform to stand in your way again. A schiltrom though is so compact and fixed it, your units cant completely hit it since they are stopped (if they didn't stop it there wouldn't be a point to use schiltrom since a cav unit would dominate your spears)


But thats just my barely informed opinion

[Quilts]

In the manual they describe a wedges as-

'Forms cavalry into a narrow wedge that is ideally suited to moving through enemy lines, rather than stopping to engage'

So, it would appear that the 'wedge' has gone from an 'alleged' offensive formation, to a manouevering formation. That may explain what happened to you.

Cheers,

Quilts

[FactionHeir]

Only time I use wedge is when I'm trying to charge from multiple sides against the same target. That prevents some of my cavalry from stopping short of the target due to being too close to a friendly unit. Imagine as charging a passive AI GB from 4 sides with cav.
You could also use it to merely engage an enemy unit from the front so their defense on their flanks and rear is lower.

[Mithradates]

Ive always wondered if the wedge fromation symbol is bugged. On my game it always appears illuminated at the start of the battle and the horses are never in wedge formation.

[pike master]

mtw 1 gave all units a wedge ability which was ideal so you could get your infantry through a gap in the line and swing around and charge the enemy in the rear.

wedge is best for formation maneuvring but only heavy cav get the option so i assume they intended it to be an offensive shock formation

i have noticed before that a group of 4 to 5 heavy cav in wedge commanded to strike a single infantry unit will wipe it out super quick. but you could probably do that in regular formation as well.

another tactic is to drive it into the enemies line and after impact command the cav unit to move beyond. this penetrates the formation and the widening wedge scores some kills as it passes through.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

I think the last thing you described is the intended purpose. Imagine the following scenario: Knights in wedge formation smash through the enemy's lines and pull out beyond. Your infantry engages the enemy from the front while the knights charge in from the rear, this time in line formation
= victory.
The "smash-through wedge" seems to be the direct way for heavy cav to get in the enemy's rear. Horse archers and light cav are good flankers, but knights are simply too slow for that.

[Sentinel]

I can't try it at the moment, but maybe the wedge will help keep the cavalry in formation when chasing down routers.

edit: just tried chasing two units of routing highlanders with two units of mailed knight. one in wedge and one in default formation. There was no improvement with the wedge unit cohesion. The default formation did much better in the initial charge.

[Kobal2fr]

I think the last thing you described is the intended purpose. Imagine the following scenario: Knights in wedge formation smash through the enemy's lines and pull out beyond. Your infantry engages the enemy from the front while the knights charge in from the rear, this time in line formation
= victory.
The "smash-through wedge" seems to be the direct way for heavy cav to get in the enemy's rear. Horse archers and light cav are good flankers, but knights are simply too slow for that.

That's the way I thought it worked too, but like I said in the OP, the knights just stop in front of the target if told to charge in a wedge. You could always give them a move command afterwards I guess, I'll have to try that.

But thanks all for your replies !

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Good news. The wedge is pretty good for smashing through.

I pierced through DFK four rows deep with a unit of basic feudal knights (no upgrades, no exp). I made them charge in wedge formation and double-clicked beyond the enemy unit instantly on impact.

Doing this five times my losses were 3 times 2 knights and twice 0. The losses all occured on impact. While moving through, my knights killed all enemies in their way and left a nice breach to be exploited.

It seems the enemy simply could not focus on a target, that's why I had no losses.

Quand meme I would prefer a formed standard attack. It's in most cases enough to cause an instant rout.

[WhiskeyGhost]

in other words, wedge is only good if you wanna go straight through the enemy to do something like kill those annoying siege weapons or archers behind those DFK's right?

[Empirate]

Good enough for me, I must say! I'll try out wedge more. Didn't ever use it in Rome or Medieval2, since in MTW it wasn't much use except against the thinnest of lines. Charging, then immediately ordering a push-through movement... great idea!

[Doug-Thompson]

The "smash-through wedge" produced outstanding results for me as well.

I ran a 40-man unit of English Knights into a 40-man unit of French Genedarmes head-to-head in normal formation. Got mutual destruction.

Did the same thing with English Knights in a wedge, using the "smash-through" and not being particularly quick about it. Pushed on through, rode off, reversed and killed all the Genedarms and still had 30 knights left.

This needs a lot more testing, but could be a major find. Also, it might make getting a good charge easier. The knights seemed to keep formation well. (The Genedarmes got a good, lances-down charge also.)

Re: Chasing routers. Line, loose formation works best for me. Go to loose and turn off wedge when the rout begins, but you'll only be fast enough to catch infantry most times.

[Shahed]

This is good. I'm going to use this technique.

Until now the only time I used wedge was to weave through the enemy army, switch to close formation and target the unit I wanted to kill, charge ! How I wish replays worked. Using wedge for weaving is awesome to watch, and it's very effective for going through the battle line.

[Czar Alexsandr]

Well to be honest I have used wedge in battle with some of the principles that have been discused in mind before. But.. to very limited effect. And now I see the error of my ways! Lol. Ah but now I will just need to send some cavalry on a daring mission throught the enemy infantry and to thosse anoying seige engines now. The Polish catapults will burn my horses no more! Lol. But.. it would be pretty impressive to watch cavalry running through the infantry to silence the big guns wouldn't it? And with the Infantry coming to kill the enemy infantry there's hardly a doubt in my mind that it wouldn't be a beatiful battle. I'll be doing some research on this very soon.

[Shahed]

That is precisely what I used wedge for most often, to get to the enemy artillery.

[Czar Alexsandr]

So it works well than Sinan? Hmmm... I still need to try it to make sure I got it right. Well we'll see. So you send you cavalry in wedge through the enemy infantry and to the siege engines? Or do you weave through holes and hit the artillery? Lol. And to think.. I've just discovered another way to whip the AI. Lol. (Running off to test Wedge.)

[Shahed]

Well you can go straight through if there is a gap wide enough in the line.

[pike master]

CA intended it to work this way im sure.

but alexander the great never used the wedge in this way. he used the wedge so he could lead at the front and maneuvre his cavalry through a gap in the enemies line.

im not sure if a wedge used by horsman was ever used by cavalry as a shock formation but perhaps someone has some historical reference to this.

[Czar Alexsandr]

The Teuton's Alexsandr Nevsky fought were famous for their dreaded wedge cavalry formation. I'm relitively certain it was an offensive tactic to.

As for my tests I discovered the wedge formation did a good enough job hitting infantry in standard formation and crushing right on through to the artillery. (Each time I did this I target the artillery behind the soldiers, not the soldiers.) Against the higher level spears. (German Armoured Seargents.) I lost a lot of cavalry on the initial charge but ended up breaking through anyways. However I lost enough cavalry I probably wouldn't do it in campaign game. (might be worth mentioning my cavalry in that test were Milanese Broken Lances and Men at Arms.) Later though with a unit of Qapikula I destroyed the enemy utterly even though he had good spears. So.. I believe it can be assumed that wedge does a good job of breaking through the enemy. I never had a cavalry unit not break through, all of them did do their job although some wern't as successful... Good cavalry will break through any spear unit. However... pikes are nasty...

Lol. I tried to break through some pikes as France. Noble Knights vs. Terico defending a Basiliac. I ordered men in wedge to attack the Basiliac.. the pike men held firm and brought down my French in droves. However.. I pulled the men out the pikes broke formation I killed them all and won the battle anyways. So Wedge is effective against everything but pikes I believe.

[Shahed]

Good post Alex. I just took this screenshot, it's not that clear but inside the enemy lines like this wedge can be useful:

https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/MTW2%20General/wedge1.jpg

[Empirate]

Sinan, do you mean the general situation shown in the screeny is one where wedge would be useful? Or is there cav in wedge formation anywhere in the screeny? If the latter, I can't seem to spot it.

[Shahed]

I mean the Moorish Camels which have broken inside the enemy army right in the middle of the screenshot. I got them in there with close formation, but that would have beeen easier in wedge. I agree it's not that clear, but that's the only shot I got in the "heat" of that moment.