Europa Universalis III

[Skullheadhq]

That's one thing that really bugs me about EU III. When I first got the game I really wanted to play as an American Indian civ because I'm fascinated by their history, so the first campaign I tried was a Maya campaign in 1300. That's when I found out that the tech level for all the American factions is 0 and they're basically unplayable. Not to mention the political situation is completely inaccurate, in 1300 the Inca hadn't started building their empire yet and the Maya were never united as a single state, for example.

I think I lot of fun gameplay could be had in the Americas, but instead Paradox chose to represent them as being good for nothing more than getting steamrolled by the Europeans.

Are you implying they should were advanced enough to have above 0 technology, when Western Europe has 3 and the muslims 4?

[Tuuvi]

The earliest game start date is 1399, and yes, most areas outside Europe, even some inside, are underrepresented. Based on the amount of love received from the devs it's western Europe, eastern Europe, Middle East and North Africa, Far East, Americas and sub-saharan Africa, although after DW, Far East might be ahead of Middle East.

It's not always fair, but it would have been impossible to represent everything 100% accurately. American nations are interesting if you want a REAL challenge.

oh, for some reason I thought the grand campaign started on the year 1300. But still, the Maya should have been represented by more than one faction.


Are you implying they should were advanced enough to have above 0 technology, when Western Europe has 3 and the muslims 4?

Yes. I think they should have been given tech level 1, or maybe even 2 in some areas, like the sub-saharan africans. However the eastern Atlantic factions such as the Iroquis are probably correctly represented with tech level 0, I'm mostly talking about the Mesoamerican and Andean Indians.

The reason it bothers me is because due to the fact that they have tech level 0, they are light years away from being able to place merchants, get national ideas, etc. The Indians conducted trade, built empires, and had organized religions, so I don't see why they have to be so far away from being able to reach the tech levels necessary to do these things in the game.

[Greyblades]

Yeah but Trade, organised religion and empire building arent conductive of technological prowess. The mesopotamian empires like Babilon and Assyria could do those things over 2000 years before the game starts and on the EU3 tech scale they probably wouldn't clock in at tech level 1.

[Centurion1]

i have nothing against tech placement i only wish they coule eventually reach equal status. like when i westenrize i dont want it to be for inferior units. if i rule three quarters of the damn world and a land border with europe as japan i deserve to have superior troops than luxembourg. because even when you modernize your men will never be quite as good which is a bit unfair and take away alot of fun from non western factions. ones which border the west are the worst such as russia byzantium ottomans etc.

[Greyblades]

I cant realy answer that beyond the games quirk that single state nations are usualy decades ahead of everyone else anyway but I can reccomend trying to westernize (http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Westernisation)

[tibilicus]

Getting the annoying "Game currently unavailable message" via Steam after trying to verify the local file cache due to a couple of text files missing for provincial decisions and flags appearing as black boxes in game. Anyone know if there is some sort of update coming or have I just messed up my game?

[tibilicus]

Never mind, problem solved. Anyway back on topic, thinking of play a far East nation for my next game. Any suggestions? Kind of want to avoid Ming as they seem overpowered. What is Japan like to play in Divine Wind?

[Tuuvi]

Yeah but Trade, organised religion and empire building arent conductive of technological prowess. The mesopotamian empires like Babilon and Assyria could do those things over 2000 years before the game starts and on the EU3 tech scale they probably wouldn't clock in at tech level 1.

True, but I still think the representation of them is all wrong.

edit:
Decided I should explain. In EU 3, The Mesoamericans and the Inka have tribal governments. I've read that the Aztecs, Inca and Maya were organized societies headed by monarchies.

They should also have higher population. In the game their population is really low compared to Europe. According to modern population estimates of the ancient Americas, their population was actually quite high. Some estimates say that Mesoamerica was one of the most populated places on earth at the time of Columbus.

I think the americans should have been made more powerful, but with a script that triggers massive unrest (or plague, if a mechanism for it exists in the game, I don't think it does) once they make contact with the Europeans. Because that's what happened in real life. The American Indian Empires were fairly powerful, until European diseases crippled their societies and governments, making them easy pickings for the Spaniards.

I'm thinking I'm going to do some more reading and research to make sure I'm right, If I am, I'm going to make a mod.

[Samurai Waki]

@Chuchip: You're pretty much correct-- there was a large technological gap between the Europeans and the Mesoamericans and Incas, Cortez played the mesoamerican tribes/civs against each other brilliantly; but had it not been for disease the Spanish would not have been able to consolidate their gains for long (The same for De Gama and Incas). I have high hopes Magna Mundi will rectify many of these issues.

[Centurion1]

I cant realy answer that beyond the games quirk that single state nations are usualy decades ahead of everyone else anyway but I can reccomend trying to westernize (http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Westernisation)

sigh im not an imbecile i understand the concept of westernizing and do it in my games as easterners of course. where i find a flaw with it is that even after i westernize and control half the damn map some tiny european nation can still field stronger troops, even if we are at the same levels of tech.


also japan is the nation most changed by divine wind you now have to unite the warring factions. its like a game within a game. note however it is bloody hard as hell.

[Tuuvi]

@Chuchip: You're pretty much correct-- there was a large technological gap between the Europeans and the Mesoamericans and Incas, Cortez played the mesoamerican tribes/civs against each other brilliantly; but had it not been for disease the Spanish would not have been able to consolidate their gains for long (The same for De Gama and Incas). I have high hopes Magna Mundi will rectify many of these issues.

Never played the Magna Mundi mod but a while back I read a little bit of their development thread on the Paradox forums and someone asked about the Native Americans, Ubik replied and said that historically they were hopelessly weak and backwards and so they would be barely playable in the game. So unfortunately I don't think it will.

[miotas]

sigh im not an imbecile i understand the concept of westernizing and do it in my games as easterners of course. where i find a flaw with it is that even after i westernize and control half the damn map some tiny european nation can still field stronger troops, even if we are at the same levels of tech.

After you westernise you still need to westernise your troops, it's a separate decision.

[Centurion1]

*rubs forehead* i realize all of this.

but my reformed hill warriors from the Iroquois are not going to be as powerful as some of gustavs guards from sweden even if our tech levels are the same.

[Tuuvi]

*rubs forehead* i realize all of this.

but my reformed hill warriors from the Iroquois are not going to be as powerful as some of gustavs guards from sweden even if our tech levels are the same.

I was doing some thinking today and I finally realized why the game is that way. The Europeans are just a superior people, no matter how you look at it. EU 3 gives the player the opportunity to create their own alternate history, but the game still needs to be plausible.

I feel kinda stupid for the thinking the Aztecs were underpowered. If anything, they're overpowered for the sake of political correctness.

[a completely inoffensive name]

*rubs forehead* i realize all of this.

but my reformed hill warriors from the Iroquois are not going to be as powerful as some of gustavs guards from sweden even if our tech levels are the same.

KEEP MASHING THE WESTERNIZE BUTTON!

[Centurion1]

acin you realize it doesnt work that way right?

[Vladimir]

I quite enjoyed westernizing China but keeping their armies more traditional. It gave me headaches against Russia as tens of thousands died over meaningless tundra but very fun.

[tibilicus]

Is there anyway to break paying tribute to the horde in Divine Wind. As Muscowy I made peace by giving tribute early on as I had my attention focused in Novgorod but I can't see anyway to stop paying the tribute. It seems kind of unfair that the horde can declare war on me at any time and yet I'm stuck giving them money when I'm quite capable of beating them. The only way I can see to break my tribute payments is declaring war without a CB and anyone who;s played Muscowy on the harder difficulties knows what that can do to your nation.

On a wider note Poland and Lithuania seem to be acting oddly. Normally the personal union between the two is over by now but both seem to be willing to continue it. I imagine its pretty rare for them to inheirt but if that happens I can say goodbye to forming Russia and hello to the super pink blob. Also any advice on taking out a powerful Teutonic Order? They have taken Novgorod which I need and have expanded into Finland. The Danes finished Sweden off but with the Danes now being hammered by the Teutons I need to find a way to counter them. If they seize Scandinavia then I'll have super Poland and super Teutonic Order blocking me from Russia, a pretty uphill task.

Things are also made worse by my lack of allies. My only allies are Genoa who are down to one province and Byzantium who is played by my friend as its a MP game. He has Greece and a bit of Asia Minor reconquered and can field about 30k of men, nowhere Poland and Lithuania's numbers though. Is it just a case of being opportunistic, waiting for the righttime then striking?

[Sarmatian]

*rubs forehead* i realize all of this.

but my reformed hill warriors from the Iroquois are not going to be as powerful as some of gustavs guards from sweden even if our tech levels are the same.

So, you build Gustavian infantry, what's the problem?


Is there anyway to break paying tribute to the horde in Divine Wind. As Muscowy I made peace by giving tribute early on as I had my attention focused in Novgorod but I can't see anyway to stop paying the tribute. It seems kind of unfair that the horde can declare war on me at any time and yet I'm stuck giving them money when I'm quite capable of beating them. The only way I can see to break my tribute payments is declaring war without a CB and anyone who;s played Muscowy on the harder difficulties knows what that can do to your nation.

On a wider note Poland and Lithuania seem to be acting oddly. Normally the personal union between the two is over by now but both seem to be willing to continue it. I imagine its pretty rare for them to inheirt but if that happens I can say goodbye to forming Russia and hello to the super pink blob. Also any advice on taking out a powerful Teutonic Order? They have taken Novgorod which I need and have expanded into Finland. The Danes finished Sweden off but with the Danes now being hammered by the Teutons I need to find a way to counter them. If they seize Scandinavia then I'll have super Poland and super Teutonic Order blocking me from Russia, a pretty uphill task.

Things are also made worse by my lack of allies. My only allies are Genoa who are down to one province and Byzantium who is played by my friend as its a MP game. He has Greece and a bit of Asia Minor reconquered and can field about 30k of men, nowhere Poland and Lithuania's numbers though. Is it just a case of being opportunistic, waiting for the righttime then striking?

I would have expected that you can declare war on the horde with a religious CB. Never paid them tribute, so I don't know what happens. Bide your time with the western nations. Teutonic order isn't that big of a problem, all poor provinces with wrong culture. Sooner or later they'll get involved with Austria or Bohemia and it's game over for them. So, yes, just bide your time for now..

[Centurion1]

only if i own a territory where gustavian infantry were being built before hand.

my point is that one shouldnt have to use other nations troops your own troops should be just as good once you go through something called westernization and control the map....

[Sarmatian]

only if i own a territory where gustavian infantry were being built before hand.

my point is that one shouldnt have to use other nations troops your own troops should be just as good once you go through something called westernization and control the map....

Which version are you playing? In HTTT and DW you get military modernization decision to enact after you westernize, which gives you units belonging to the tech group in which you westernized. So when you reach Latin tech group, you enact military modernization and you build latin units in your territories. The fact that you're using a unit called Gustavian infantry is just an abstraction. It doesn't mean that you're using Swedish infantry rather that your native American troops are now organized and trained like Swedish Gustavian infantry...

[Centurion1]

ahhhh i think i have an earlier version def earlier than dw. i think i have complete.

you know when you buy a game called the complete you think your getting all of it..... nope.

[Beskar]

ahhhh i think i have an earlier version def earlier than dw. i think i have complete.

you know when you buy a game called the complete you think your getting all of it..... nope.

There is a "new" complete version called Chronicles which includes Heir to the Throne and Divine Wind.

[Tuuvi]

Well, somehow complaining about EU3 made me want to play the game, so I decided to continue my game as Mali that I started when I first got EU3. I admit it's pretty fun, but the tech advancement thing is really starting to bug me again. I got my government tech up to level 2, which is supposed to give feudal monarchy and empire government types. When I couldn't change my government type from tribal despotism to one of those two, I went onto the EU3 wiki to find out why. It turns out in order to upgrade to a better government from a tribal government, you have to have government tech level 10 and you have to westernize.

My country is 3 times the size of any European kingdom in landmass, and probably has a few million people in it. In this situation wouldn't a country be able to progress from a tribal system naturally by themselves? Why do I have to have European influence in order to do so?

[tibilicus]

Well, somehow complaining about EU3 made me want to play the game, so I decided to continue my game as Mali that I started when I first got EU3. I admit it's pretty fun, but the tech advancement thing is really starting to bug me again. I got my government tech up to level 2, which is supposed to give feudal monarchy and empire government types. When I couldn't change my government type from tribal despotism to one of those two, I went onto the EU3 wiki to find out why. It turns out in order to upgrade to a better government from a tribal government, you have to have government tech level 10 and you have to westernize.

My country is 3 times the size of any European kingdom in landmass, and probably has a few million people in it. In this situation wouldn't a country be able to progress from a tribal system naturally by themselves? Why do I have to have European influence in order to do so?

Im afraid EU3 is a very eurocentric game. It reflects the history most people believe exists which is the idea Europe was some sort of benevolent enlightened continent centuries ahead of the rest of the world. It ignores the fact that China for example was the world super power right up until the 17th century. Part of the reason the quest for the new world and the search for gold in the new world happened was to feed the Europe to China Gold-Silver trade for example.

The title though "Europa Universalis" tells you what you're going to get from the game. Don't expect to ever really compete with the Europeans on a harder difficultly unless you're perhaps Ming or the Ottomans because it isn't going to happen. That's the game I'm afraid. It's one which accurately reflects European supremacy but also fails to understand the events and circumstances which led to the supremacy and the Eastern/ non-European role in this.

Then again, the historical perspective the game represents is the one most people take to be true. I imagine there would be even more outrage if a super Mali started blobbing into Europe or the Aztecs conquered Britain with a colonialism casius belli.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

It reflects the history most people believe exists which is the idea Europe was some sort of benevolent enlightened continent centuries ahead of the rest of the world.
Really? Most of the stuff in EU3 is hardly benevolent or enlightened.

[tibilicus]

Really? Most of the stuff in EU3 is hardly benevolent or enlightened.

Perhaps a poor use of wording, Europe is much more predominant in comparison to everyone else. The fact that even if Mali owns all of Africa the colonialism Casius Belli will still exist because they're "heathen primitives" shows how rigid the superior European EU system is. The other nations essentially exist to feed the European powers who are put on such a huge pedestal of superiority its pretty much impossible to compete with them. Again Ottomans and Ming are the exception but only under the players control. I can't recall a single game where I've ever felt threatened by the Saracens at the gates of Europe. One game as Castille I actually kicked them out of Asia Minor purely because I could. They eventually started expanding into the nomads regions, perhaps where their army stood less of a chance of being completely obliterated.

It's not really a massive problem for me as I accept that's the approach the game goes for, I can see why it annoys some people though.

[tibilicus]

For a continental Switzerland with one port it doesn't currently have a core on with the desire once cored to be a minor colonial power, which is better Reformed or Protestantism? My income is the worlds largest and I dominate trade with either 5 merchants or monopolies on all the major COTs in Europe. Does the Reformed trade efficiency make up for the +10% tax? Production efficiency of Protestantism isn't really a must either as I've never had problems with production efficiency.

I just about have more Reformed provinces but its pretty evenly split 1/3 Reformed, 1/3 Protestant and 1/3 Catholic. Most of the Protestant and remaining Catholic provinces are non cores however.

[Sarmatian]

For a continental Switzerland with one port it doesn't currently have a core on with the desire once cored to be a minor colonial power, which is better Reformed or Protestantism? My income is the worlds largest and I dominate trade with either 5 merchants or monopolies on all the major COTs in Europe. Does the Reformed trade efficiency make up for the +10% tax? Production efficiency of Protestantism isn't really a must either as I've never had problems with production efficiency.

I just about have more Reformed provinces but its pretty evenly split 1/3 Reformed, 1/3 Protestant and 1/3 Catholic. Most of the Protestant and remaining Catholic provinces are non cores however.

Depends on the overall situation. If most of your income comes from trade, then switching to reformed is a must. If you don't plan on heavy colonization, losing 0.5 colonists is nothing. Only thing that you may want to consider is which religion France, Austria and Castille are. Once you change religion, all your alliances, royal marriages and good relations with catholic countries is gone...

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

For a continental Switzerland with one port it doesn't currently have a core on with the desire once cored to be a minor colonial power, which is better Reformed or Protestantism? My income is the worlds largest and I dominate trade with either 5 merchants or monopolies on all the major COTs in Europe. Does the Reformed trade efficiency make up for the +10% tax? Production efficiency of Protestantism isn't really a must either as I've never had problems with production efficiency.

I just about have more Reformed provinces but its pretty evenly split 1/3 Reformed, 1/3 Protestant and 1/3 Catholic. Most of the Protestant and remaining Catholic provinces are non cores however.
Look at your incomes. What is the tax income and what is the trade income? If your trade income is noticeably higher than tax, definitely go Reformed. I've got a Hansa game going where I've colonized most of North and South America (but not the Carribean) and I make like ~50 ducats a month in taxes, 100 in tariffs, and 350 in trade.

[Kagemusha]

In my DW game.I decided to turn my French Blue blob into Gray one. Here is the result.Others better be careful or i will go all EU on them::laugh4:

https://img685.imageshack.us/img685/9463/hrel.jpg

[Beskar]

All that by 1510 ? Did you feed France on miracle grow?

[Kagemusha]

All that by 1510 ? Did you feed France on miracle grow?

Nope i got into HRE early on by bribing Bohemia first so i got my capital into HRE.Then bribing electors to vote me as emperor. Actually most of my emperor days i had to live with being ruled by regency council. Another luck hit me when i got into a marriage alliance with Lithunia and then i basically just kept defending HRE princes from others and releasing new princes from enemy lands. From that i gained authority to press home the imperial reforms. So basically i kind of really played as a dutifull HRE emperor. The last reform was the hardest as princes started to convert to heretic religions and i had to fight my own vassals to keep authority. Very interesting game so far. I kept from infamy by only annexing regions i had core for.

[Sarmatian]

In my DW game.I decided to turn my French Blue blob into Gray one. Here is the result.Others better be careful or i will go all EU on them::laugh4:


The world awaits for your conquest, err... enlightened rule.

[Centurion1]

All that by 1510 ? Did you feed France on miracle grow?

france is terrifyingly easy to win with.