Belgian Election thread ! [Archive]

doc_bean

06-06-2007, 18:56

Okay, election time again in the smallest and most confusing federal country in the world !
I'll give a brief explanation on the Flemish parties, since I don't know that much about the Walloons, anyone from that side of the country is invited to add some details.

The big players :

-The 'liberals' : open-VLD

leanings:

Social liberals, economic libertarians, as far as that applies to our country. They don't want to get rid of health care, they want to keep education affordable, but they're the biggest proponents of tax cuts. they're also the ones that legalised gay marriage and euthanasia, together with the socialists.

position:

The main party of the last two governments, used up most of their political credit, probably won't be the biggest party anymore. gave recently adopted some very "left" ideas on climate and immigration.

On the other side of the language border: MR

The big second party over there, they might possibly decrown the socialists this time.

-The socialists : SP A

-leanings

Socialists, of course. Since we're such a socialistic country already even they propose tax cuts and a *realistic* policy. Their most controversial point seems to be about nuclear energy (they want out).

-position:

Have been in the government for the last 18 years, the traditional coalition partner, have a loyal voter base and have a very good chance of keeping their second place.

On the other side of the language border: PS

They 've been the biggest party there since the stone age, much of Wallony's downfall is attributed to them. We really don't like them this side of the border. If they can keep most of their electorate they're probably in the government, as has always been the case.

-The Catholics: CD&V

-leanings

Socially conservative, for the most part. Economically pretty neutral, support tax cuts now. Their main program point seems to be "we'll do the same but better". Which seems a popular enough thought.

-position:

The most likely winner next sunday. They are allied with a small party with separatists leanings which will weaken their position in negotiating a govenrment with the Walloons.

On the other side of the language border: CDH

Small party really, doesn't matter.

-The Nazi's: Vlaams belang

-leanings

Opportunists, fascists, populists, separatists, racists and generally just a bunch of scumbags. Officially the biggest party last election but didn't get to participate in the government since no one wanted to govern with them.

-position:

They have their very loyal voting base, but I feel the general public has gotten tired of them, I think (and hope) they'll lose a few percent compared to last time.

- The small player that might actually matter:

-The Green party: Groen!

-leanings

Environmental extremists and idealists. Most of the party members are vegetarians, most drive hybrid cars, or don't drive at all, several never take an airplane because of the pollution it causes.

-position:

Lost really bad last time, will make a small come back, possibly enough for them to be considered for a coalition, although most of us fear that scenario

On the other side of the language border: Ecolo

Bigger party than their Flemish equivalent I think, don't know too much about them.

-My prognosis:

Catholics will become biggest party, then the Nazi's, then Socialists, then Liberals.

-Most likely coalition

Catholics with socialists, both sides of the border.

-What I want to see as a coalition

Catholics and liberals, at least this side of the border, I don't really care who leads the coalition.

-Worst case scenario

Socialists becoming the major govenrment party, picking up green in the coalition *shudder*.

-What i'm going to vote

Deduce that for yourself, it's pretty obvious.

Louis VI the Fat

06-06-2007, 21:56

-What i'm going to vote

Deduce that for yourselfNo need for the secrecy. There's no shame in being a socialist, seccesionist, environmentalistic Catholic.

Now to wait for the other Belgians to come forth! Remember, we all know which party a Fleming votes when he refuses to comment on his preference...~;)

since I don't know that much about the Walloons, anyone from that side of the country is invited to add some details.
We don't have any around, do we? So I'll speak for my oppressed brethren instead.

Following your scheme, but skipping the spoiler tags that are so exemplary of the Belgian tendency for secrecy and cover-ups concerning all things political:

-The 'liberals' : open-VLD
On the other side of the language border: MR
The big second party over there, they might possibly decrown the socialists this time.
Liberal is centre-right in Belgium. But no, they won't defeat the socialists. Not in a million years. :shame:

-The socialists : SP A
On the other side of the language border: PS
They 've been the biggest party there since the stone age, much of Wallony's downfall is attributed to them. We really don't like them this side of the border.
We really don't like them this side of the border either. ~;)

-The Catholics: CD&V
On the other side of the language border: cdH
Small party really, doesn't matter.
They've been the biggest movement in Flanders since the stone age. Much of Belgiums problems is attributed to them. We really don't like them this side of the linguistic border.
Accordingly, the Christian Democrats are called the Humanist Democrats in the French speaking part.

-The Nazi's: Vlaams belang

Nazism is a Teutonic curse. There is no such thing in Wallonia.
Okay, well there is the Front National Belge, run by convicted criminal Féret. He'll get his usual few percent.

The Green party: Groen!
On the other side of the language border: Ecolo
Bigger party than their Flemish equivalent I think, don't know too much about them.
History is with them. Unfortunately, reason is not.

My prediction for Wallonia:
Socialist PS, Liberal MR, Humanist cdH, Greens, FN.

Louis VI the Fat

06-06-2007, 21:57

The Belgian political system is so maddeningly confusing that no Belgian knows exactly who, what for, or even why they are voting this time. Hence, voting has been made compulsory. All the average Belgian is allowed to know at this stage is that they must get up and vote something this sunday, at the risk of a hefty fine.

This has led to important political experimentations like the one below, for which in the interest of international political intercourse I feel obliged to risk a warning point:

A Belgian senate hopeful is offering voters something a bit more tempting than a one per cent cut in VAT and better rubbish collections - 40,000 free blow jobs to anyone who signs up at her campaign website.

https://img55.imageshack.us/img55/5849/derveauxjj0.jpg

Tania Derveaux represents NEE, an "impartial protest movement running for senate in the Belgian elections of June 10 2007", which "offers voters in Belgium the option to vote 'NEE' if they find that none of the parties deserve their vote".

According to Ms Derveaux, she originally pledged to create 400,000 jobs as a "response to incredible claims that were made by other parties in Belgium". This prompted wags to demand 400,000 blowjobs, which Derveaux has wisely reduced to 40k.

Still, by her reckoning she'll still have to suck like a good 'un for 500 days, servicing 80 hardened NEE supporters a day. We'll save you the trouble: if she puts in a seven-hour shift at the coalface, that means one punter every five-and-a-half minutes - without the benefit of a tea break.

Oh yes, married or shy people can elect to receive their bj in Second Life, so there's little excuse not to get your rocks off.

Edit: click here (http://www.nee-antwerpen.be/index-eng.htm) if you want her to give you a *******.
Free videos too!

drone

06-06-2007, 22:13

:daisy:
That's like voting Gah!, but with benefits! :2thumbsup:

doc_bean

06-06-2007, 22:22

Ah yes, we do have the best protest parties :laugh4:

About Wallony and the PS: I hope they'll lose in a few decades at least. Something i've noticed with 'our' system is that parties always reinvent themselves after a loss, which tends to mean new people with fresh ideas who are not totally jaded (and corrupt) yet. They'll still win this time though, since they have the unquestionable support of the poorest region of the country (and nearly of Europe, if what we're led to believe is true).

The PS represents everything that's wrong with socialism. keep the poor down so they keep voting for you :furious3:

About the Catholics: I believe they were much like the PS now is, an arrogant organization sure of its power, and thus rife with corruption.
It's truly amazing imo how much has changed for our country in the last decade, when they weren't in control anymore, unfortunately, the liberals don't receive too much credit for what they've achieved. Yet our economy seems to be booming, we survived the recession mid-decade with barely a scratch, we've still got our great healthcare system, we have gay marriage and euthanasia now, and better yet, it hasn't destroyed society as some right winger would assume, we've semi-legalized pot (not fully legalizing it was a big mistake though), confidence in the justice system has increased from a mere 18% to nearly 50% (though if it's based on fact is another issue), taxes have generally gone down, or are allocated differently, youth unemployement this year is down 40% compared to last year (according to the figures recently released) and for the first time the same is true for our immigrants' children.
Of course, people focus on the negative, and true their are some issues, but I don't feel they weigh up to what has happened.
The Catholics really know what they are doing now, they barely have a program, they just claim to make better 'ministers' than the current generation of liberals. They're also allied to some idiotic separatist movement who believes we'll all be making much more money if we dump wallony. They might be right, but so effing what ? Are we going to dump all provinces that don't make enough cash to stay in our glorious union ? L'unité fait la force *is* still our national motto. Now, they're not extreme separatists, I expect them to stay reasonable in the coming negotiations, but I still the catholics should have left them to themselves. It would have only cost them a few West Flemish votes (I love a lot of things about the West Flemish, but let's just say they tend to be very focused on their own little village/city/province).

about Vlaams belang: they're allied with LePen in the EU parliament I believe ~;p

Strike For The South

06-06-2007, 22:37

Go Le Pen!

doc_bean

06-06-2007, 22:39

Go Le Pen!

:girlslap:

Strike For The South

06-06-2007, 22:42

Fine I vote for the muscles from Brussles
https://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2081/jcvdok1.th.jpg (https://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jcvdok1.jpg)

Husar

06-06-2007, 23:12

Almost makes me wish I were belgian...no, not the pic that Strike posted...:sweatdrop:

Fragony

06-07-2007, 08:44

Ahhhhhh I love seeing lack of democraty in action, go Vlaams Belang :yes:

nazi's lol, that would make half of belgium nazi's. Decent rightwing party.

doc_bean

06-07-2007, 09:46

Ahhhhhh I love seeing lack of democraty in action, go Vlaams Belang :yes:

nazi's lol, that would make half of belgium nazi's. Decent rightwing party.

Most people here know your views about immigrants, so most of them will realise how right my description really is.

Of course, if it was just about immigration that would be one thing, you should hear them talk about splitting the country up and taking Brussels, that's talk about 'conquest' nad our 'hereditary right to the city', nevermind the people who live there now.

But this isn't really the place to debate Vlaams belang, I've done it before.

EDIT: I didn't mean to imply Fragony was a Nazi.
EDIT2: seriously, just ignore the first sentence...

Fragony

06-07-2007, 09:51

Most people here know your views about immigrants, so most of them will realise how right my description really is.

I think you would do well apoligising for that. Just a friendly suggestion.

doc_bean

06-07-2007, 09:59

I think you would do well apoligising for that. Just a friendly suggestion.

Calling you a nazi was not my intention.

Like I said, if it was just the immigration issue, they probably wouldn't deserve the label.

Fragony

06-07-2007, 10:03

That's not quite it Doc_Bean.

No, you called me a nazi and 'Opportunist, fascist, populist, separatists, racists and generally just a bunch of scumbags.'

edit, well minus seperatist, obviously.

doc_bean

06-07-2007, 10:12

That's not quite it Doc_Bean.

No, you called me a nazi and 'Opportunist, fascist, populist, separatists, racists and generally just a bunch of scumbags.'

edit, well minus seperatist, obviously.

Now opportunist and populist obviously refer to the way a politician or party behaves, so it can't apply to you.
Fascist, don't think that you are one, but they're still a fascist party though, only one with leadership issues at the moment :laugh4:

Racist, okay, I don't think you're technically a racist, you just mind immigrants don't you ? Especially muslims (I should have added islamophobes on that list). They however, are racists, their old party program involved taking away the nationality of anyone who couldn't prove at least one of their grandparents was born Flemish. They also proposed separate busses for immigrants (by which they mean anyone who doesn't belong to our 'race') and 'true Flemish'.

Generally a bunch of scumbags, again, refers to them, not necessarily to their voters.

See Fragony, as controversial as your views on Islam and immigration are here, they're worse. You'd probably vote for them, but in doing so support something that is far worse than you'd bargained for. Just like the germans didn't expect what would happen when they elected the Nazi's.
But really, i mostly refer to them as the nazi-party because they have proven links to nazi and neo-nazi organizations.

Fragony

06-07-2007, 10:20

Gah, learn to count to 10

doc_bean

06-07-2007, 10:26

EDIT: okay, and I'll admit I shouldn't have phrased it quite like I did.

King Henry V

06-07-2007, 10:30

What is the stance of Flemish people on independence? A friend of mine who's Flemish says that 80% of people are for independence.

doc_bean

06-07-2007, 11:41

What is the stance of Flemish people on independence? A friend of mine who's Flemish says that 80% of people are for independence.

Only a minority truly wants independence, most people just don't care too much.

The whole issue of independence is played out by politicians and laced with false promises and unrealistic scenarios. I've said it before, Belgians are very isolationistic, we tend to be focused on ourselves and our immediate environment and not all that aware of what happens 50 miles away.
So the politicians have sold us on the whole independence thing. It's not surprising that the biggest support for this is found in the part of the country furthest away from the language border (support for Vlaams belang is mostly due to immigration issues, they're a bad gauge for support of independence).

The reason most people want independence is simple: taxes. They believe we'll be better off. Sure they can whine about the language conflict and other things, but the real issue is simply: taxes. There is no desire to found the Glorious nation of Flanders, people just want to pay less taxes.

Of course, because gaining independence is a gradual process here, at least according to the politicians, what this really means is that we get more electable positions each year, which means we pay more to the politicians. We are a country of 10 or so million people and have four governments (Federal, Brussels, Flanders and Wallony), which we all have to pay. I'm not sure how the language regions are represented these days, but rest assured that we have at least 4 parliaments too. Yep, they all get payed. all this for a country you can cross by bike in a single day if you put some effort into it.

The independence thing is a scam, and the Flemish are falling for it by the millions.

Conradus

06-07-2007, 18:48

I've got the 'luck' of living in Belgium, but I don't have to vote yet, my birthday's some two weeks after the elections. Have to study for a maths exam though :shocked2:

For the most part I agree with Doc_bean, though my vote would go to the CD&V (Christians). I'm too young to have any memories of their 50+years reign and all the corruption but I've witnessed most of the blunders our current and the previous goverment made. Of course they had their strong points, but many of the great things in our country were already in place when the liberals came to power, or are due to international economy boosts.

It's about time though that PS got a little time as opposition to reflect their actions...

Mikeus Caesar

06-07-2007, 18:52

:embarassed:

The thread title tricked my eyes.

Louis VI the Fat

06-07-2007, 20:17

:embarassed:

The thread title tricked my eyes.Come on, admit it: you thought it said 'Belgian Election Threat', didn't you?

Rodion Romanovich

06-07-2007, 20:38

Moros

06-07-2007, 21:52

I love nonsense threads...

Anyone knows if you can vote for Leterme's goat?

Moros

06-07-2007, 21:58

Of course, because gaining independence is a gradual process here, at least according to the politicians, what this really means is that we get more electable positions each year, which means we pay more to the politicians. We are a country of 10 or so million people and have four governments (Federal, Brussels, Flanders and Wallony), which we all have to pay. I'm not sure how the language regions are represented these days, but rest assured that we have at least 4 parliaments too. Yep, they all get payed. all this for a country you can cross by bike in a single day if you put some effort into it.

It's worse we have six. Sigh.
Flanders.
French community
German Community
Wallony
Brussels
Federal Government

You see nonesense. Belgium poltics= nonsense (most countries are I guess, but we really excel when it comes to this)

Also most indeed want to split because of fake reasons. The real reason, the media. The truth is what the media tells you to be the truth.

doc_bean

06-07-2007, 22:00

It's worse we have six. Sigh.
Flanders.
French community
German Community
Wallony
Brussels
Federal Government

You see nonesense. Belgium poltics= nonsense (most countries are I guess, but we really excel when it comes to this)

Also most indeed want to split because of fake reasons. The real reason, the media. The truth is what the media tells you to be the truth.

I wasn't sure how they treated the language communities these days. They don't have any real power anyway.

Moros

06-07-2007, 22:08

Ahhhhhh I love seeing lack of democraty in action, go Vlaams Belang :yes:

nazi's lol, that would make half of belgium nazi's. Decent rightwing party.
Sorry but , you apparantly don't the VB verry well. My freind.

Also anyone noticed how half of their candidated are over 3 quarter a century old?

Moros

06-07-2007, 22:10

I wasn't sure how they treated the language communities these days. They don't have any real power anyway.
Thou are completly wrong. They control education, a verry important thing. Also part of our social help is done by the communities. Also quite a few other stuff.

Louis VI the Fat

06-07-2007, 23:31

It's worse we have six. Sigh.
Flanders.
French community
German Community
Wallony
Brussels
Federal GovernmentWhy, naturally. How else to rule the vast area of Belgium, 20% larger than Vermont, than through a triple federalised system? And you've got your provincial, local and European elections too. Please tell me voting is obligatory for all of them. :beam:

And then there's the Bruxelles-Hal-Vilvorde arrondissement problem, which, by verdict of the Belgian constitutional court, in fact renders the current election unconstitutional. ~;p

Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde (often abbreviated as BHV) is a contentious Belgian electoral arrondissement in the center of the country that encompasses both the officially bilingual Brussels-Capital Region, which coincides with the administrative arrondissement of Brussels-Capital, as well as the officially unilingual Dutch-speaking area around it, Halle-Vilvoorde, which in turn forms a separate administrative arrondissement. Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde is also a judicial arrondissement, unambiguously better known as the Brussels judicial Arrondissement after the location of its courts.

With the federal elections of 10 June 2007 looming, the problem of the electoral district of Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde reemerged. Because the federal government failed to comply with a ruling of the Court of Arbitration which declared the provincial electoral districts compared to the two remaining arrondisemental ones in the former province of Brabant unconstitutional, several mayor's in the Brussels-Halle-Vilvoorde area have threatened to refuse to compile the lists of electors.

Professor and constitutional expert Paul Van Orshoven from the Katholieke Universiteit Leuven declared that the elections, to be held on June 10, are unconstitutional. According to Van Orshoven there are two problems:

As the previous election was held Sunday May 18, 2003, the final date to hold elections (four years from the previous) is Sunday, May 13, 2007

The Court of Arbitration gave the government the time to fix the B-H-V problem until the next elections should been sheduled, after that election results could be declared void.

Anyone knows if you can vote for Leterme's goat?Yves 'les francophones ne sont pas en état intellectuel d'apprendre le néerlandais' Leterme? What about his goat?
Please tell me he was caught doing you-know-what with his goat!? :beam:

doc_bean

06-08-2007, 06:40

Thou are completly wrong. They control education, a verry important thing. Also part of our social help is done by the communities. Also quite a few other stuff.

Does that mean Brussels has it's own community govenment too ? Because education norms are different in Brussels, Wallony and landers, especially when it comes to languages.

*sigh* see, I don't even understand our system...

Why, naturally. How else to rule the vast area of Belgium, 20% larger than Vermont, than through a triple federalised system? And you've got your provincial, local and European elections too. Please tell me voting is obligatory for all of them.

Of course it is. Though they're normally spread out so we only have to go and vote once every two years.

And then there's the Bruxelles-Hal-Vilvorde arrondissement problem, which, by verdict of the Belgian constitutional court, in fact renders the current election unconstitutional.

It's become more of a non-issue these days, which hows how little backbone us Flemish really have, I guess. At least in france there would have been a nice riot.

Yves 'les francophones ne sont pas en état intellectuel d'apprendre le néerlandais' Leterme? What about his goat?
Please tell me he was caught doing you-know-what with his goat!?

Nope sorry. He is somewhat misquoted I believe, it was in a reaction to something and he started by saying "Apparently..." I believe it was about the situation in Henegouwen where on the french side of the language border there's a huge unemployment problem and on the Dutch side there's a shortage of workers. But I don't remember exactly.

Sardo

06-08-2007, 13:09

Does that mean Brussels has it's own community govenment too ? Because education norms are different in Brussels, Wallony and landers, especially when it comes to languages.
What I've been taught is that the French Community governs francophone affairs in Brussels, and the Flemish Community governs the Dutch ones.

Adding to the fun is the fact that the competencies of the Flemish Community are in fact unified with those of the Flemish Region, which is why there's only (!) one Flemish Parliament (though Flemish parliamentarians from the Brussels-Capital Region cannot vote on competencies of the Flemish Region). As opposed to the rest of the country which has two Regions (Brussels-Capital and Walloon Region) and two Communities (French and German).

See Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_Belgium) for additional information and subsequent mind-warping. I guess we just love having tons of government officials to support with our tax money.

As to the election, I have no clue as to who should get my vote. I really haven't been keeping up to date with the whole politics thing and as such I think the whole compulsory voting thing stinks. If people are clueless about politics (as I so often am), they should not vote. Maybe I'll educate myself some more next time.

doc_bean

06-08-2007, 13:41

What I've been taught is that the French Community governs francophone affairs in Brussels, and the Flemish Community governs the Dutch ones.

Adding to the fun is the fact that the competencies of the Flemish Community are in fact unified with those of the Flemish Region, which is why there's only (!) one Flemish Parliament (though Flemish parliamentarians from the Brussels-Capital Region cannot vote on competencies of the Flemish Region). As opposed to the rest of the country which has two Regions (Brussels-Capital and Walloon Region) and two Communities (French and German).

See Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdivisions_of_Belgium) for additional information and subsequent mind-warping. I guess we just love having tons of government officials to support with our tax money.

As to the election, I have no clue as to who should get my vote. I really haven't been keeping up to date with the whole politics thing and as such I think the whole compulsory voting thing stinks. If people are clueless about politics (as I so often am), they should not vote. Maybe I'll educate myself some more next time.

Don't make it Green, VB, or socialist and I'm happy :2thumbsup:

Moros

06-08-2007, 19:37

No brussels doesn't have it's own community government. there are only 3 communities the French speaking com., the German speaking com and the dutch (but this is a part of the flemish parlemant, they said that one parliamant was enough. Only a few members are different if it's about the Dutch community or about the territorial flanders.)

EDit: gimme: Sp.a-Groen!-Ecolo-VLD-CDH-MR coalition. + CD&V if the previous wasn't enough. No PS and no VB though

doc_bean

06-08-2007, 21:41

No brussels doesn't have it's own community government. there are only 3 communities the French speaking com., the German speaking com and the dutch (but this is a part of the flemish parlemant, they said that one parliamant was enough. Only a few members are different if it's about the Dutch community or about the territorial flanders.)

Yeah, I checked again. It's sad that I actually have to check to know such things.

EDit: gimme: Sp.a-Groen!-Ecolo-VLD-CDH-MR coalition. + CD&V if the previous wasn't enough. No PS and no VB though

Dear lord, "Groen!" ???? Well, you're still young...

Moros

06-09-2007, 10:57

Yeah, I checked again. It's sad that I actually have to check to know such things.

Dear lord, "Groen!" ???? Well, you're still young...
Perhaps I'm young but at least I know how my country works better than you. ~;)

May I ask, if you make your opinion by logical thining or more by listening to the media?

doc_bean

06-09-2007, 11:30

Perhaps I'm young but at least I know how my country works better than you. ~;)

May I ask, if you make your opinion by logical thining or more by listening to the media?

I try to apply logical thinking, but I don't always have the time to really read all of everyone's program, so i have to base myself on comments made by politicians and the debates I can follow.

I don't really pay all that much attention to how the federal system really works since
1) no "ordinary" citizen really knows
2) perhaps with the exception of this election, the parties tend to ignore the federal division of authority when campaigning. They're already talking about having the elections on the same date again so the average citizen will never know what they are voting for where. Our entire Federal system is an absolute mess.

But seriously, since when is "Groen!" been logical ?

Is it about the nuclear thing or about something else ? because as an engineer, surrounded by other engineers, i haven't met anyone with knowledge on the subject who believes it's feasible to close them in 2015 without resorting to:

a) more coal and gas power stations
b) buying our power from France, which is heavily investing in nuclear power, so that wouldn't change a thing for the environment on a European scale.

Seriously, I'm curious.

Moros

06-09-2007, 15:18

I hope one thing doesn't make your complete view of politics.

I'm extraordinary! ~;)

Nah, noone indeed really knows. If they reform the state like they're all bragging about, than just make it comprehensable for god's sake. And don't just only give Flanders more "bevoegdheden", some things are better when federal. (Zaventem for example)

doc_bean

06-09-2007, 16:26

I hope one thing doesn't make your complete view of politics.

Of course not, but part of the problem with our current political system is that parties have a 'program' you have to vote for, usually every platform has at least a few decent points and a few bad ones, but you have to prioritize.

Nuclear energy is a tough one, because you can always claim they can decide to keep 'em open a few years longer in 2015, so voting for or against a party based on that shouldn't be critical. I just find the SP's stand highly 'suspicious', they provide no decent solution or alternative. I can respect Groen! because they tell it like it is "we all need to use far less energy !", they're idealists and extremist, but at least they're honest.

I mostly like the 'liberal' ideology since I don't believ ein the hand-out economy they propose. I prefer tax cuts since they eliminate the overhead costs of the government redistributing the wealth. I also now far too much supposedly poor people getting benefits because they fall into some category and really poor people getting nothing because they don't qualify (and i'm not talking about immigrants here, that's a whole different issue). hand-uots based on criteria create a new class of the poor, those who jusr don't qualify and breed a class of people who depend on hand-outs, who won't get a job because that will cost them money. And I don't blame them.

I really liked Vivant's idea (not the collection of taxes, mind you, but their hand out policy), but they seem to have dissapeared now.

CD&V, I just don't thrust, besides, they don't have anyone besides Leterme who seems like a decent politician.
Groen! means well, but they lack a vision, a plan. You can see waht has happend with the 'night flights', they can't seem to see society as a system.

I'm extraordinary! ~;)

Nah, noone indeed really knows. If they reform the state like they're all bragging about, than just make it comprehensable for god's sake. And don't just only give Flanders more "bevoegdheden", some things are better when federal. (Zaventem for example)

Airspace, environment, energy and public transportation should be federal without question. I'm not sure one of them is (energy is partially split i believe, public transport is a very complex issue with semi-privatized companies and all). Social security should definitely remain federal, I'd say employment too.

Frankly, I have a hard time seeing anything that *has* to be split. It's really besides the issue, the issue is the billions Flanders gives to Wallony each year, something decisive has to be done about that, with or without splitting the country up. Nothing N-VA proposes really helps that afaik...

Conradus

06-09-2007, 18:02

EDit: gimme: Sp.a-Groen!-Ecolo-VLD-CDH-MR coalition. + CD&V if the previous wasn't enough. No PS and no VB though

You'd make a government without the largest French party, and the two largest Flemish?

As for the nuclear energy topic. I find Groen!'s and SPa's positions in this unrealistic. A senator of SPa came to our school for a debate, but she had no clue what they were planning on using in stead of nuclear power plants. In the end she even went far enough to state that we should increase our number of oil, coal and gasplants.

Moros

06-09-2007, 18:45

Most of these guys don't have a clue on most things, so do we! That's why you have specialists in every party. For example, Yves Letermes can hardly really critisize the 'justitie" stuff (except for th obvious) and could not lead it either. That's when in the case of CD&V Tony van Parijs steps in. Just to give an example. And ofcourse you always have some people who are less eloquent and intelligent in every party.

Airspace, environment, energy and public transportation should be federal without question. I'm not sure one of them is (energy is partially split i believe, public transport is a very complex issue with semi-privatized companies and all). Social security should definitely remain federal, I'd say employment too.

exactly!

You'd make a government without the largest French party, and the two largest Flemish?
Yup, won't go but that'd the ideal. But a coalition without PS but with the CD&V is absolutely possible. the PS just really needs to reflect on themselves and hopefully like doc says get a new generation of more realistic party members. The only reason I don't like the CD&V in is mostly the NVA. I don't have this issue this much with Spirit as they seem more realistic and the SPa doesn't seem to listen that much to them as the CD&V does with the NVA.

CD&V, I just don't thrust, besides, they don't have anyone besides Leterme who seems like a decent politician.
Personally I don't think Leterme's that good really. I think there are a few CD&V'ers who are better. Leterme just plays the media to well. Have you seen the debate last saturday (or was it sunday?), he almost never responded to the questions he was asked. He can talk a lot and say some numbers, but real arguments that actually make sense. Only a few. The reasons he stands out is that he's one of the few politicians left who can talk. Only a few others still are good speakers, like the top of the VB. I can't say much good about them but if there's one thing; Filip and Frank and a few others can talk.

Nuclear energy is a tough one, because you can always claim they can decide to keep 'em open a few years longer in 2015, so voting for or against a party based on that shouldn't be critical. I just find the SP's stand highly 'suspicious', they provide no decent solution or alternative. I can respect Groen! because they tell it like it is "we all need to use far less energy !", they're idealists and extremist, but at least they're honest.

I'm for the abolition of Nuclear power (except for future versions that are really clean, nuclear fusion for example (if that ever succeeds))
And I'm for trying to get people to use less energy and stuff.
I mean every day countless of ships and trains transport nuclear waist. In the seas near Russia is already tons and tons of nuclear waist in barrels in the sea. Oilships sink and leak oil regulary, if the same things start to happen with nuclear waist. I don't know how many ships transport waist to Japan.

Think about this how long is it going to take before thos barrels in the sea start leaking, or a few boats sink? Think about this: 1kg of plutonium if spread around enough can make all life on this earth, the way we know it, vanish.
And yearly we transport so many tons of nuclear waist. We can only wait for a new Tsjernobil like thing to happen. You can say about new technology this and that. They said the same 30 years ago.

Also as someone who volunteers in the nature wildlife rescue center in Opglabeek (Sil & co), I hear a lot of things you normally don't hear about, about our nature in Flanders. Groen! should be ruling Belgium and stuff, but it should be something that stays and remains to help us think about it.

Conradus

06-09-2007, 22:21

Yup, won't go but that'd the ideal. But a coalition without PS but with the CD&V is absolutely possible. the PS just really needs to reflect on themselves and hopefully like doc says get a new generation of more realistic party members. The only reason I don't like the CD&V in is mostly the NVA. I don't have this issue this much with Spirit as they seem more realistic and the SPa doesn't seem to listen that much to them as the CD&V does with the NVA.

I agree on the PS-part, they really need an 'opositionbath', but the chance they will is zero. If SPa goes into a goverment, so goes the PS. I don't have the feeling the CD&V listens to NVA. They clearly showed them who's in charge when Dedecker tried to join. It's obviously they don't need NVA, but NVA does need them. And Spirit, again I never saw the use of this party. Van Bellinghen came to debate, but all he could tell us is that they didn't really have a strategy and were more of a 'zweeppartij'.

Personally I don't think Leterme's that good really. I think there are a few CD&V'ers who are better. Leterme just plays the media to well. Have you seen the debate last saturday (or was it sunday?), he almost never responded to the questions he was asked. He can talk a lot and say some numbers, but real arguments that actually make sense. Only a few. The reasons he stands out is that he's one of the few politicians left who can talk. Only a few others still are good speakers, like the top of the VB. I can't say much good about them but if there's one thing; Filip and Frank and a few others can talk.

I consider Leterme and some other CD&V-politicians among the best we have atm. Peeters, De Crem, Van Deurzen en Van Parys are capable politicians imo. As for the other parties, they have some good politicians, but sometimes I wonder how some got their ministerposts?
And VB's lucky they have 3 real politicians (DW, Annemans, Van Hecke)

I'm for the abolition of Nuclear power (except for future versions that are really clean, nuclear fusion for example (if that ever succeeds))
And I'm for trying to get people to use less energy and stuff.
I mean every day countless of ships and trains transport nuclear waist. In the seas near Russia is already tons and tons of nuclear waist in barrels in the sea. Oilships sink and leak oil regulary, if the same things start to happen with nuclear waist. I don't know how many ships transport waist to Japan.

I have no objection to clean nuclear energy, but fusion's going to take quite a while, and we don't have any alternatives at the moment. Everything Groen! or SPa suggest , must end by importing expensive nuclear power from France, or building/using more fossile fuels. And those are more polluting to the world than the small amount of nuclear waste that we can safely store or with new reactors even use.

Groen! should be ruling Belgium and stuff, but it should be something that stays and remains to help us think about it.
I've always found it a bad idea for idealists to run a country. They might have a vision, but lack the capability to make it work.

doc_bean

06-09-2007, 22:38

Note: i typed this out a few hours ago, but had a major system crash before I could post it. Luckily I saved it.

Personally I don't think Leterme's that good really. I think there are a few CD&V'ers who are better. Leterme just plays the media to well. Have you seen the debate last saturday (or was it sunday?), he almost never responded to the questions he was asked. He can talk a lot and say some numbers, but real arguments that actually make sense. Only a few. The reasons he stands out is that he's one of the few politicians left who can talk. Only a few others still are good speakers, like the top of the VB. I can't say much good about them but if there's one thing; Filip and Frank and a few others can talk.

The VRT debate ? I thought he was the weakest one there.

I'm not a big fan of his, but he is the face of CD&V now, luke Dehaene was in his day, I'm sure he'd make a decent prime minister, but I now virtually nothing about the other people in the party (well except Inge Vervotte who i seriously dislike).

I'm for the abolition of Nuclear power (except for future versions that are really clean, nuclear fusion for example (if that ever succeeds))

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-nuclear power. There just is no viable alternative at the moment.

And I'm for trying to get people to use less energy and stuff.

Groen! would have us use about 1/5 of the enegy we are using now by 2015, considering the efficiency the companies are already running at, I don't belief that's possible.
One thing I do have to hand to Groen! is that they also talk about the responsibility of the common man, and not just blame everything on the industry, but even if we halve our energy consumption, we'd still be running short, considering we'd want to cut back on fossile fuels too.

Green power is a wonderful thing, but besides capacity I haven't heard anyone adressing the other big problem: it's not controllable. You can make some when it's sunny, or when the wind blows, or when the tide rises, but you want ot use it all through the day (and a lot at certain times), so you'd need a decent way to store it, even if the production (on year basis) was sufficient.
I haven't heard anyone talking about building another pumping station, which is certainly what we'd need, I don't even know if that's a realistic possibility.

I'd support an end to our nuclear usage if someone gave a decent alternative.

Right now i'm mostly in favour of VLD's position, which is developping cleaner, more efficient power plants. CD&V just wants to use the same old polluting plants until god knows when, and that's exactly what will happen with SPA too, since they'll have no alternative by 2015.

I mean every day countless of ships and trains transport nuclear waist.

Now you're talking about global problems and not about national issues. We dump everything in Mol afaik (I might be wrong though).

Also as someone who volunteers in the nature wildlife rescue center in Opglabeek (Sil & co), I hear a lot of things you normally don't hear about, about our nature in Flanders. Groen! should be ruling Belgium and stuff, but it should be something that stays and remains to help us think about it.

It's a difficult balance in our overcrowed country. A friend of mine works for the farmers union (Boerenbond) and he often has some very depressing stories to tell about farmers forced to quit their jobs without compensation because someone decided to build a nature reserve near them (he represent Limburg farmers). They're forced out of business without any compensation and the government talks about 'the greater good'.

A green party definately has its place in society, a far right party like VB does to, but i want niether of them participating in the government.

Don Corleone

06-10-2007, 01:03

Sorry, I'm afraid I know <0 about Belgian politics, other than the requisite "America is Satan" stance all your parties must take.

But I heard an interesting tidbit on NPR that made me check-in on this thread. What's up with your Crown Prince stealing furniture from your National Archives? (Well, not returning what he had borrowed). It was strongly hinted this was political in motive (embarrassing your royalist-leaning parties?)

doc_bean

06-10-2007, 09:02

Sorry, I'm afraid I know <0 about Belgian politics, other than the requisite "America is Satan" stance all your parties must take.

We're not Iran you know. One party complained about the threat of the use of the English language to our 'culture' and there was a little talk about Iraq and who had wanted us involved (no one really). Otherwise, the US wasn't an issue in our election.

For the record, we're also in Afghanistan, so we don't oppose everything you guys do.

But I heard an interesting tidbit on NPR that made me check-in on this thread. What's up with your Crown Prince stealing furniture from your National Archives? (Well, not returning what he had borrowed). It was strongly hinted this was political in motive

They're supposedly property of the Flemish government since they belonged to a house they were/are responsible for. Now they want to turn the house into a museum and have asked for the furniture back. The court doesn't respond.

There's some debate if they really are property of the Flemish government, but since they're willing to take it to court, I'd say they're probably right.

(embarrassing your royalist-leaning parties?)

From a political view, the royalists are almost always the Walloons, since we can't vote for their parties and they can't vote for ours (the little exceptions I won't go into...) doing this holds no electoral gain imo.

There's a pretty strong anti-royalist movement in Flanders (lead politically by the tiny party N-VA, who will take the fall if things get too complicated). Our royals do suck in a bad way. Our king doesn't do anything anymore, he lets the crown prince handle all the foreign missions while he's sunbathing in the Med. The crown prince is just an idiot who can't even speak Dutch (which is the native language of 60% of his future subjects...) and manages to continuously mess up those trade missions. He also doesn't know his place in politics, he's supposed to remain neutral, but he doesn't. We all fear the day his father dies...

EDIT: just voted, less than half an hour from my door to my door, mandatory elections do have their benefits !

Moros

06-10-2007, 15:40

I agree on the PS-part, they really need an 'opositionbath', but the chance they will is zero. If SPa goes into a goverment, so goes the PS. I don't have the feeling the CD&V listens to NVA. They clearly showed them who's in charge when Dedecker tried to join. It's obviously they don't need NVA, but NVA does need them. And Spirit, again I never saw the use of this party. Van Bellinghen came to debate, but all he could tell us is that they didn't really have a strategy and were more of a 'zweeppartij'.[QUOTE]
Oh please.

[QUOTE]
I consider Leterme and some other CD&V-politicians among the best we have atm. Peeters, De Crem, Van Deurzen en Van Parys are capable politicians imo. As for the other parties, they have some good politicians, but sometimes I wonder how some got their ministerposts?
And VB's lucky they have 3 real politicians (DW, Annemans, Van Hecke)
Leterme just presents himself well, that's it. He can't even awsner a bloody question, he always advoids them or awnsers to a question that even isn't asked. If you constantly have to do this, I'd say there's something wrong, no?

Yeah those 3 are political animals, well they know how to play with the media. Governing however, that I don't know. And I'd like to keep it that way!

How they got ministerposts, they probably needed to be divided poltically correct so some women did get one. ~;)

I have no objection to clean nuclear energy, but fusion's going to take quite a while, and we don't have any alternatives at the moment. Everything Groen! or SPa suggest , must end by importing expensive nuclear power from France, or building/using more fossile fuels. And those are more polluting to the world than the small amount of nuclear waste that we can safely store or with new reactors even use.
Yes, I did say Nuclear fusion, if that's ever goign to happen. My thinking is, we should get rid of nuclear waist, but on a reasonable way. Doesn't have to be 2015 for me, a decent solution is all I want.

I've always found it a bad idea for idealists to run a country. They might have a vision, but lack the capability to make it work.
the first should should have been a schouldn't. The sentence doesn't make sense otherwise either.

doc_bean

06-10-2007, 16:03

Yes, I did say Nuclear fusion, if that's ever goign to happen. My thinking is, we should get rid of nuclear waist, but on a reasonable way. Doesn't have to be 2015 for me, a decent solution is all I want.

You do realize nuclear fusion is not going to rid of nuclear waste do you ? We're pretty much stuck with that. The best we can do to fix it is to improve fission reactors so they can work with low grade uranium and use the waste we have stored, they again will produce waste, but much less.

As for fusion; don't bet on it.

Banquo's Ghost

06-11-2007, 09:40

You do realize nuclear fusion is not going to rid of nuclear waste do you ? We're pretty much stuck with that. The best we can do to fix it is to improve fission reactors so they can work with low grade uranium and use the waste we have stored, they again will produce waste, but much less.

Actually, the best we can do (outside fusion) is work harder on thorium fission (http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html). Much less waste, much less risk of proliferation issues and almost all the major identified deposits (it's anyway more abundant than uranium) are in stable democracies.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.

Fragony

06-11-2007, 10:00

Sorry but , you apparantly don't the VB verry well. My freind.

Also anyone noticed how half of their candidated are over 3 quarter a century old?

Even if it was true I don't care, one of the bigger dutch leftist party's is ex-maoist, nobody seems to mind that. VB has reactionary elements because there is nothing else, their program isn't that radical really. The real radicals are the pro-immigration party's, multiculture muss sein.

leads to things like this (taken from Geenstijl)

Het hoge woord is er eindelijk uit. De moordenaar van Marianne Vaatstra is hoogstwaarschijnlijk toch gewoon wel een asielzoeker. Daags na de brute moord op Marianne op 1 mei 1999 hebben er geheimzinnige acties plaatsgevonden in het asielzoekerscentrum in het Friese Kollum. De Televaag publiceert vandaag een brief van een anonieme tipgever die uit de school klapt. Gezien de inhoud is de brief geschreven door een medewerker van het Asielzoekers Centrum te Kollum, dat op een steenworp is gelegen van de plek waar Marianne Vaatstra werd verkracht en vermoord. "De dader mocht niet worden gepakt want dat zou het draagvlak van de asielopvang aantasten" schrijft de anonymus. Een erkende seriemoordenaar, die in eigen land werd gezocht voor het verkrachten en keeldoorsnijden van jonge meisjes, is vlak na de moord uit het AZC te Kollum gehaald, naar een opvang voor Moeilijk Opvoedbare Gelukszoekers verplaatst en vervolgens het land uitgezet. De dienstdoende ambtenaren kregen een zwijgplicht opgelegd. Methode doofpot. Het leven van een 16-jarige provinciemeisje is nou eenmaal minder waard dan de publieke opinie over het Asielzoekersbeleid. Er is zelfs een malle professor te voorschijn gehaald om iedereen wijs te maken dat het DNA van de dader wijst op een West-Europeaan. En als zelfs Peter R de Vries het zegt dan is het zo. Overigens zijn deze recente feiten geen nieuws voor de inwoners van Kollumerland en omstreken. Iedereen in Kollum kan u levendig vertellen dat de zoektocht met speurhonden destijds meteen werd afgeblazen toen de honden linea recta van Plaats Delict naar het AZC banjerden...

doc_bean

06-11-2007, 11:55

Okay election done, negotiations starting today. It's going to be interesting.

Some observations:

-The PS is no longer the biggest party across the language border, first time ever :medievalcheers:

-Leterme seems the most likely prime minister at this point, considering the opinion of him in Wallony I'm not sure this is a good thing. His program is also focused primarily on Flanders, I'm not sure what he wants to do for the country as a whole.

-I actually think the idea of always having a Flemish minister is kinda perverse, especially with all the complaining going on about the influence of the Walloon politician on Belgian policy. I'd say the best course of action for CD&V-NVA would be to not take the prime minister post and use their political credit to reform the state, since that's what they promised.

-CDH doesn't seem to keen to rule alongside their 'sister' party CD&V.

-The 'liberals' are still the biggest fraction in the federal parliament, I hope to see enough liberal influence on policy. I want those tax cuts !

-The socialists are all but dead in Flanders.

-VB is now the third party in Flanders (narrowly), they barely gained any new voters. :medievalcheers:

Predictions:

-Catholic-Liberal government

-the state reform won't be too radical, won't happen, or will be different from what people expect (those who now something about the federal system in the first place)

-CD&V-NVA needs to pick its fights, they're the biggest in Flanders but have no friends in Wallony. I think we'll some surprising 'concessions' soon.

-MR will be the de facto strongest party in the federal government, since they do have friends. The 'liberal' mark on the government and policy will be clear.

-VB realises it has hit a ceiling, they'll need to compromise (as an opposition party support the CD&V-NVA) and appear more acceptable if they want to grow.

Worst fear:

The tri-partite, socialists (PS) part of the government, it would ruin everything that has been accomplished. Keeping them out *is* worth postponing the state reform.

Actually, the best we can do (outside fusion) is work harder on thorium fission. Much less waste, much less risk of proliferation issues and almost all the major identified deposits (it's anyway more abundant than uranium) are in stable democracies.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.

It's debatable, if we can use are nuclear waste and reduce the amount a hundred fold while getting energy out of it, I think it's worth taking a look at the option.

The real radicals are the pro-immigration party's, multiculture muss sein.

Both sides have extremes, there doesn't seem to be any 'draagvlak' for extreme-left immigration politics here anymore, Groen! is the only party that still believes in those, and it's a secondary issue for them (and possibly why they didn't gain more votes).

Moros

06-11-2007, 17:35

Louis VI the Fat

06-11-2007, 17:48

I'm not feeling much for that state feform. It's more about that they actually are reforming than what good the reform will bring.
Meh!

Worst elections ever. Well except for the VB. Bu then again if you count them up with Jearn Marie. Boekentas!Worst election ever!? Gah! The PS lost, which makes it the greatest election result of all time in my book.
As for state reform, any coalition that manages to exclude the PS for a change would be enough of a reform. :jumping:

doc_bean

06-11-2007, 17:52

I'm not feeling much for that state feform. It's more about that they actually are reforming than what good the reform will bring.
Meh!

I'm against it too, but we can always hope for the best...:embarassed:

Worst elections ever. Well except for the VB. Bu then again if you count them up with Jearn Marie. Boekentas!

Jean Marie doesn't have a racist agenda afaik.

EDIT: also; What Louis said.

Sardo

06-11-2007, 20:37

I, for one, welcome our new Christian Democratic overlords.

(voted blue :embarassed: )

doc_bean

06-11-2007, 20:54

(voted blue :embarassed: )

What's wrong with having voted the way you did ? Or are you just sad they lost ?

Voting is not about picking supporting the winner, it's about influencing the system.

Besides, you voted for the second largest party in Flanders, no shame in that position.

Sardo

06-11-2007, 22:51

It was, in fact, faked sadness at their loss, but really, 'influencing the system' is pretty much what I had in mind when I finally decided - mere minutes before voting, too. I felt the Christian Democrats didn't really deserve a landslide victory, and likewise the Liberals didn't deserve a severe beating. (Couldn't be bothered to explain that to my brother who delighted in mocking me for siding with the losers, though - he's the point-and-laugh type anyway.)

Still, I'm planning to read the papers and watch the news next time around, so I'll be capable of making a truly informed decision and won't have to rely on my gut so much (sorry, Stephen Colbert!). It's why I'm against compulsory voting (which I may have said before in the thread).

doc_bean

06-11-2007, 22:59

It's why I'm against compulsory voting (which I may have said before in the thread).

I've actually warmed up to the idea recently. Mostly because I realized how fast you can vote here, when i hear stories about waiting in line for hours to cast your vote, which seems to be the norm in some countries, I don't think it's too bad.

5 elections a decade and they cost me a total of about two hours, from leaving my door until getting back.

Moros

06-12-2007, 11:22

Jean Marie doesn't have a racist agenda afaik.
.
He doesn't, but I just can't stand him. You know there amways a few persons you just can't stand like Marcel van Thilt (or however you spell his name), Ben Crabé, Sabien Appelmans,... They were just born to irritate me. God told me so!

Kralizec

06-12-2007, 12:53

Worst elections ever.

Well, for you anyway ~:P

Andres

06-15-2007, 23:44

I was on a holiday during these elections. So I had an excuse for not participating.

Everything you ever wanted to know about Belgian politics can be found here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=67801).

After the last few weeks of polls, polls and polls and the reactions of our politicians on these polls, polls and polls + the various tv acts on several stupid and nonsensic televion shows from our politicians, I got utterly disgusted.

But the main reason for my disgust is the nepotism in our Belgian political parties:

SP.A: Freya Vandenbossche, Bruno Tobback, Maya Detiège
CD&V: Tom Dehaene, Marie Declerck
Open VLD: Jean Jacques De Gucht, Matthias De Clercq
Vlaams Belang : Marijke Dillen

Do I need to continue?

I'm not feeling much for that state feform

Read "Compendium van het Belgisch Staatsrecht" from André Alen. After that you'll agree that we need a state reform, but a much bigger one than that which is considered by those nepotist fools that call themselves "politicians" and who only truly want to change pretend that they are going to change what gets enough media attention. In fact, the organisation of our "federal" state should be re-done from scratch. What we have now is, well, sad. Really sad.

One example: the sound produced by an air plane flying over Belgium (a country the size of a handkerchief) has to be conform with three different regulations. I rest my case.

I am past caring about Belgian politics and allthough I am well aware that indifference is the biggest enemy of democracy, I decided for myself to a) be abroad during belgian elections (which is approximately every year :wall: ) b) vote blanco if I cannot escape the country when that awfull period is there. During election time, I will rent/buy massive amounts of DVD's to avoid all political related television programs. As far as I am concerned, they can replace our election by a soccer competition.

Looking forward to see Geert Lambert and Michel Daerden running... And Bert Anciaux crying when he gets tackled by Elio Di Rupo.

doc_bean

06-16-2007, 08:51

But the main reason for my disgust is the nepotism in our Belgian political parties:

Glad I'm not the only one. That said, you can ahrdly blame the politician when JJ De Gucht gets easily elected and gets much more votes to his name than you'd expect from his position on, the list. The electorate is to blame. :furious3:

EDIT: Moros and I are against the state reform partially because it's always done so badly, I believe we'd both favour a complete reform from scratch, if it was actually based on common sense or objective criteria this time.

Moros

06-16-2007, 10:05

Indeed I'm not against a reform if it makes sense and has been tough about and ofcourse is benefitial for the population. Why bother reforming our state if dosn't help a ****, but only is used to be able to say: "we reformed the state, so we have kept our word, so keep voting for us". Cause really that's what most parties are about. NVa might care, but CD&V? Jo Vandeurzen doesn't care a bit, the only thing why the CD&V is talking about the reforms is because they know it'll get them votes. And they were right.
Really I see it to mostly why they won, they were the first not to much right winged party who talked about it. And the first big one who ciould actually get into a governement.

Kralizec

06-16-2007, 20:03

-I actually think the idea of always having a Flemish minister is kinda perverse, especially with all the complaining going on about the influence of the Walloon politician on Belgian policy. I'd say the best course of action for CD&V-NVA would be to not take the prime minister post and use their political credit to reform the state, since that's what they promised.

I thought that you need to be bilingual to be the federal prime minister- how many Walloonish (?) politicians can claim that?

It's normal in parliamentary democracies that the largest party provides the prime minister. I can't even think of a single exception.

doc_bean

06-16-2007, 20:09

I thought that you need to be bilingual to be the federal prime minister- how many Walloonish (?) politicians can claim that?

It's normal in parliamentary democracies that the largest party provides the prime minister. I can't even think of a single exception.

Sorry should have said prime minister, bilinguality is indeed a must, Louis Michel is perfectly bilingual, Reynders is pretty good, Di Rupo's Dutch has improved but is still lacking.

You don't expect the US to always make a Californian or a Texan president do you ?

Kralizec

06-16-2007, 20:41

Sorry should have said prime minister, bilinguality is indeed a must, Louis Michel is perfectly bilingual, Reynders is pretty good, Di Rupo's Dutch has improved but is still lacking.

You don't expect the US to always make a Californian or a Texan president do you ?

Well, as I said it's considered normal that the leader of the largest party becomes the PM. Isn't it logical that the party wich has the most voters behind him gets the most important office?
I suppose that in the coalition negotiations LeTerme could offer to drop the office in favour of some concessions, but those would be so significant that I don't think any Wallish (?) party would agree to it.

I suppose the problem could be adressed by removing the language division in federal elections, so that all Belgians vote for the same parties. Doesn't seem likely to happen...
The other way would be to "deflate" Flemish votes by abandoning the proportional system, and give both Flanders and Wallony an equal amount of seats in parliament to be distributed according to votes. That seems unfair, and even less likely to happen.

:balloon2:

doc_bean

06-16-2007, 21:58

I suppose the problem could be adressed by removing the language division in federal elections, so that all Belgians vote for the same parties. Doesn't seem likely to happen...

The Walloons often ask for this, but it is much protested by the Flemsih because although we are the minority it's our 'culture' that apparently needs protecting (living near the language border, I somewhat agree with the reasoning).

The other way would be to "deflate" Flemish votes by abandoning the proportional system,

We don't have a true proportional system, seats are assigned per 'province' so that the french speaking parts gets 40 and the Dutch speaking part 60 percent of the 'chairs' (not quite sure about the senate, i assume it's equally proportioanl) sometimes this can change a little because of brussels but I think we now have a perfect 60/40 split between Flemish and walloon parties.

and give both Flanders and Wallony an equal amount of seats in parliament to be distributed according to votes.
That seems unfair, and even less likely to happen.

:balloon2:

Yeah, never going to happen, that would give their vote nearly twice as much power as ours.