Age and Wisdom

[Bijo]

age --> wisdom: true?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Only if you learn from your experiences and take the right lessons from them.

I would say however that most people do get wiser with age. Though the young always think they are wiser.

[Ronin]

not true....

case in point: politicians

considering that most politicians only get to positions of power after they are 40 (cases of prime ministers or presidents of younger age are rare) and considering that these people are complete morons....

if these people got wiser as they grew old.......how stupid would they have to be when they were young? :laugh4: Is such a thing even possible? I mean how would such people survive? they would surelly have forgot to inhale and exhale or something :book:

[Kagemusha]

define wisdom?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

considering that most politicians only get to positions of power after they are 40 (cases of prime ministers or presidents of younger age are rare) and considering that these people are complete morons....

if these people got wiser as they grew old.......how stupid would they have to be when they were young?

Well obviously even stupider so you havent proven a thing :laugh4: They had to work up to being a politician. Or maybe your right its down to being a politician :laugh4:
I stick by my post however. Dont forget the disclaimer


Only if you learn from your experiences and take the right lessons from them.

Politicians certainly do not fall into this category :laugh4:

[Lemur]

age ≠ wisdom

I've known plenty of people who became less wise as they got older. It all depends on how you react to and learn from experience. Or don't, as the case may be.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Not if you get dementia.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Or like me alzheimer's :laugh4:

[Odin]

age --> wisdom: true?

No.

Events that garnish expirence, that in the future, may be drawn upon in reflection and applied to a current circumstance = wisdom (IMHO)

This theory dosent require one to be older, it just requires expirence, however i concede that with age your opportunity to expirence more is greater.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Its like asking do you get smarter with age. Not quite the same thing. If you dont take your lessons to heart no. you wont get any wiser or smarter. This is a no brainer of a question that IMO I said all that needs to be said in my first post. No one has added anything new here.

Now that you have all benefited from my infinite wisdom this thread may be closed:laugh4:

[Andres]

Gaining experience certainly helps. But you must be able to learn from your experiences as well.

And common sense is also a necessary prerequisite imo. If you have a decent amount of common sense, you can see and understand alot of things already without really experiencing them.

Off course, one can argue that common sense = wisdom.

[Stig]

@Ronin, try running a country ~D

I think experience does help, but if you want to call that being wise, I dunno.

[John86]

"Nature is full of freaks, and now puts an old head on young shoulders, and then a young heart beating under fourscore winters." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Bijo]

The responses have gladdened me.

In real life I have / had been arguing with those of old age (about anything) and when I use logic and experience of the things I have learnt and recall the deepness I have had and I know they err (and sometimes they themselves know so too), they usually turn to the argument that with age wisdom comes.

I then inform them they are in error and they -- wanting to be correct -- keep up silly arguments based on (their belief of) 'age --> wisdom'. The fools.

But it taught me another wisdom, a truism actually: it is difficult to change most old peoples' minds.

[Papewaio]

Meme's seem to be territorial. Once an idea has taken hold it takes alot more effort to replace it then it took to originally plant one.

Sometimes part of learning is the ability to unlearn.

[KukriKhan]

The older I grow the more I distrust the familiar doctrine that age brings wisdom.
H.L. Mencken


Perhaps one has to be very old before one learns to be amused rather than shocked.
Pearl S. Buck

I agree with both.

It's not the years, it's the mileage.

[Husar]

Bijo, get a heart that's not made of stone. ~;)

"You're all idiots to think you could learn from your experience, I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others to prevent making mistakes myself." - Otto von Bismarck (translated by your humble Husar because it's only on the german page of wikiquote)

[Ironside]

not true....

case in point: politicians

considering that most politicians only get to positions of power after they are 40 (cases of prime ministers or presidents of younger age are rare) and considering that these people are complete morons....

if these people got wiser as they grew old.......how stupid would they have to be when they were young? :laugh4: Is such a thing even possible? I mean how would such people survive? they would surelly have forgot to inhale and exhale or something :book:

Have you actually seen the youth parties of the main parties? :dizzy2: :wall: :eeeek: :fainting:
Appearently breathing doesn't require much brainpower. :laugh4:

Husar, I've seen that one as a proverb (although it was formulated that the stupid ones learns from thier own mistakes and the wise ones from others).

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ive said this before but wisdom comes when you realise that the more you learn makes you realize just how little you really know. If you are wise when you are young chances are you will get wiser as you age. So in general yes age does equal wisdom. If not you certainly are doing something wrong.

[Bijo]

Bijo, get a heart that's not made of stone. ~;)

Essentially I already have one not made of stone. It is an engine-like apparatus constructed from metal-like tools, iron, electrical wires, and so on, that could be referred to as "heart." But the point is: it is not made of stone.

[Reverend Joe]

Age does not necessarily grant wisdom. It all depends on if you bother to learn.

However, the reverse equation, younger=dumber, does hold up pretty well.

Just look at me in the Beatles thread... getting pissed because I am being told to respect a musical group... that's why I stopped posting there, I was acting an ass. :shame:

[Lemur]

When I use logic and experience of the things I have learnt and recall the deepness I have had and I know they err (and sometimes they themselves know so too), they usually turn to the argument that with age wisdom comes.
This sounds like more of a last refuge sort of thing than a serious argument. But to be frank, I don't know anyone who reacts well to being told they are wrong. There's an art to that sort of discussion.


I then inform them they are in error and they -- wanting to be correct -- keep up silly arguments based on (their belief of) 'age --> wisdom'. The fools.
Yeah, this is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Nobody likes to be "informed they are in error." One has to be a bit delicate when correcting another human being, even when they are obviously wrong. And as often as not, they're not going to change their minds right then. It's much better to ask questions, drop facts, and let their minds chug it over in their own good time. Unless the situation is life-threatening, there's no rush.

One thing that can come with age: patience.


But it taught me another wisdom, a truism actually: it is difficult to change most old peoples' minds.
Why restrict this truism to old people? It's hard to change anyone's mind. Look at how you've posted in the SF/drama thread in the Frontroom. Multiple people came back at you with intelligent, informed critiques of your initial post, and you didn't modify your position in any meaningful way. You aren't old, are you?

A mulish attitude is not the preserve of the aged, and you don't need to be advanced in years to plant your heels in the ground.

[Pannonian]

Ive said this before but wisdom comes when you realise that the more you learn makes you realize just how little you really know.

I like the Oscar Wilde line: "I am not young enough to know everything".

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I then inform them they are in error and they -- wanting to be correct -- keep up silly arguments based on (their belief of) 'age --> wisdom'. The fools.
It works both ways young fella :laugh4: I cant tell you how many times I argue with my son about things and he says your old fashioned . It dont work that way any more. I got news for you both. I said the same exact thing to my dad. And you know what? He was almost always right. Human nature doesnt change. The young think we old people are senile and out of touch and we think you just havent had enough experience to be really wise yet. Nothing as they say beats experience. You usually learn more from your mistakes than you accomplishments. So yes wisdom once more does come with age.

[Bijo]

Why restrict this truism to old people?

I was referring to them in real life situations, thus the truism was applied accordingly. It is no restriction.



EDIT: excluded the unnecessary word 'because'

[Bijo]

This sounds like more of a last refuge sort of thing than a serious argument. But to be frank, I don't know anyone who reacts well to being told they are wrong. There's an art to that sort of discussion.


Yeah, this is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Nobody likes to be "informed they are in error." One has to be a bit delicate when correcting another human being, even when they are obviously wrong. And as often as not, they're not going to change their minds right then. It's much better to ask questions, drop facts, and let their minds chug it over in their own good time. Unless the situation is life-threatening, there's no rush.

Yes, yes indeed. It is quite correct. I must admit there have been times I noticed people after some time (weeks, or months, etc.) and what I told them before suddenly was so obvious to them.

But that is not enough. It shouldn't just be about... "changing minds" as if people are changing (irrelevant) "beliefs or opinions" (for it really appears like it, as if having to get used to another belief which they have to get comfortable with); they should use logic (rationality, reason) in the first place and rid themselves of the irrelevant things that only distract them in false ways -- that only distort their minds.

If they did that, there wouldn't even be a need to... "carefully tweak them" and let them "get used to an idea" to finally after a long time arrive at the obvious truth.

[Husar]

Essentially I already have one not made of stone. It is an engine-like apparatus constructed from metal-like tools, iron, electrical wires, and so on, that could be referred to as "heart." But the point is: it is not made of stone.
I already explained it in the chat, but logic can also be used to spot metaphors. ~;)

There's another quote I'd like to add:

"I don't believe that people choose to be stupid." - N. M. Vonken

[Hosakawa Tito]

Too soon old, too late smart.

[rory_20_uk]

"Generals are always ready to fight the last war"

Age does bring wisdom, but it also brings other things, such as an inability to change, dogmatic views and a belief that one is wiser than is the case. WW1 is a great example of the inability of those in charge to see what modern warfare was - I'd bet not a single man in the trenches had any great store for cavalry.

Innovation is usually the remit of the young, who can see new ways of doing things. They are also better at altering things for new uses.

As the world moves on faster, the pace at which knowledge is eroded increases. My father has less experience with many things today than I do as I use them more and started doing so earlier. Many of the things that we is far more familiar with are not in use.

~:smoking:

[Blodrast]

Age -> experience.
From that, one could derive wisdom, but it's not a given.

However, I tend to agree with rory and disagree with Lemur, mental inflexibility seems to be more a trait of the old, rather than the young. I see that in myself, as well (in the sense that I'm trying to analyze how I used to think/feel about things several years ago, and how I do now - and I've been becoming less and less flexible over time, despite the fact that I've always been aware of it and been trying to avoid it...).

[Gawain of Orkeny]

However, I tend to agree with rory and disagree with Lemur, mental inflexibility seems to be more a trait of the old, rather than the young. I see that in myself, as well.

Because you learn from experience and your experience tells you this. The young have no experience so they are more flexible. Thank god we get set in some of our ways. This can be a very good thing if you have developed good traits and not bad ones. The young are born to learn the old to teach.

[Blodrast]

Sure, I agree with you, but just to clarify, we're talking about (roughly) two categories of things here:
1. First category is things that the old folks (guess I'm including myself here, as well) know as the better way to do some things, and they are actually right about it; the young ones disagree with this mostly because they haven't had the life experiences to prove them that this indeed is the case.
So for this category, I agree with you that it's good to have faith in doing things the true-and-tried way.
However, next comes second category of things.

2. Second category is things that can be done in a different way, and the older generation tends to be reluctant to adopt them, whereas the young people are more willing to try it.
The thing is, the only reason our species survived is because of this one trait: adaptability. We were never bigger, faster, stronger - we were smarter, and that manifested itself in our ability to adapt.
Society is changing these days much, much faster than it used to do a few centuries ago.
In lots of ways - small ways, apparently, but when you put them all together, you get a whole new society.
Sometimes it's good to try to do things in a different way - that's exactly the only way to make progress. Things change (sometimes because of us, sometimes not), and we need to adapt. Society is changing fast, very very fast, and all these changes need to be taken into account when deciding upon one's course of action.
(I'll try to clarify a bit more with an example: look at all the electronic-social stuff, places like myspace and facebook and all that stuff. I'm not saying we should all start using them, I'm not even saying they are a good thing or a bad thing. I'm saying they are happening, a lot of people are using them, and when you make a decision, you need to take that into account, because their appearance and existence has changed things, and our society).

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Well one of the real questions is just when do you become set in your ways. When does old start?

[Blodrast]

No idea. Prolly varies from person to person, too. I've seen old people who were very open-minded (few, though). I've seen young people who are very conservative - too much so for their own good.
For my specific case, I've passed 30, and like I said, I've noticed I've been getting less and less flexible over the last, say, 5 years or so. Significantly so.

But again, I think it depends on what kind of person you are, your background, your education, how much you keep up to date with society, what you do (not necessarily as a job, but as occupation/hobbies), etc.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

. I've seen old people who were very open-minded (few, though).

OK how do I rate :laugh4: :help:

[Caius]

age --> wisdom: true?
Occidental World = No
Oriental World = Yes

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Lets not leave out American Indians yes . In fact its still so in many cultures around the world. Like I said nothing beats experience. You can learn it the hard way on your own or take an old person who has been through it countless times tell you their experiences and learn from that. It never hurts to get us old folks view on something before you act on it . In fact its usually advisable.

[Incongruous]

Considering that most of the people in ths forum are probably under 40, this is just unfair.

[Lemur]

Even scarier than the old vs. young issue is the dreaded Dunning-Kruger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_Syndrome) effect. In short, these researchers proved that those who know the least on a subject will grossly overestimate how much they know, and how competent they are. Likewise, those who know the most will generally underestimate their knowledge and competence.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

When they start hiring kids to teach us old folks in school age will no longer equal wisdom. Does anyone else think the young know more in general or are in general wiser than those older than them or for the most part arent the old wiser from experience?

[rory_20_uk]

Occidental World = No
Oriental World = Yes

And what world was more stultified than the Oriental world? big on everything being done the same, but sadly nothing really happened new.

If the young only learnt what the old taught we'd still be slogging behind wooden ploughs as thats what we'd always done.

~:smoking:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If the young only learnt what the old taught

Notice you had to add only. If the old didnt teach the young the young would be dead :idea2: