KotR King of the Romans OOC thread VIII [Archive] - Page 2

View Full Version : KotR King of the Romans OOC thread VIII

Pages : 1 [2] 3

gibsonsg91921

07-02-2007, 03:44

nice report - i like it in categories.

Warluster

07-02-2007, 08:01

It doesn't have lots of info as I didn't see the start of turn messages,etc.

Stig

07-02-2007, 08:56

It doesn't have lots of info as I didn't see the start of turn messages,etc.
Strange, I left them in so that the chancellor could use them

2 diplomats or spies or something died, that's what I recall.

StoneCold

07-02-2007, 09:25

I think it is because the game save is from Igno, after he used it to kill his avatar?

econ21

07-02-2007, 09:46

I am uploading save now.

I can't see any save other than the one Ignoramus posted (1244-2). Please try to upload one by 9pm UK time today.

BTW, I suspect start of turn messages are not saved in savegames. If a player gets them, I recommend they open them and report their contents to the Chancellor. The corollary of this is that they imply a decision - e.g. accept a guild or not, choose an ally etc - do make that decision (but try to choose what you think the Chancellor would choose).

Warluster

07-02-2007, 11:03

WHAT! There was a 1244-2 one! Oh no, oh no.... I used the 1244 one!:bigcry: :bigcry: ~:doh:

What did the -1 and -2 two ones contain?

Right, I have to go out, so I won't be checking/doing stuff on the.Org for at least another 12 hours, what do i do, upload my save, or use the other one tomorrw?

econ21

07-02-2007, 12:01

Right, I have to go out, so I won't be checking/doing stuff on the.Org for at least another 12 hours, what do i do, upload my save, or use the other one tomorrw?

I think the only change in 1244-2 from 1244 was that Hummel Senior had been killed and Hummel Junior was left near the Turks west of Adana.

If you can kill Ulrich Hummel (by attacking the Turks), you should be able to continue with your save.

Stig

07-02-2007, 12:43

Right someone else download the newest 1244-2 and kill Ulrich ... would do it myself but I'm not really into installing MTW2 and downloading a big patch yet.

And Warluster, once Ansehelm can leave Thorn safely can you do so, I want him to get to Magdeburg.

econ21

07-02-2007, 13:21

Right someone else download the newest 1244-2 and kill Ulrich ...

No, that won't help. Warluster never uploaded a save. There is only 1244-2 and that is Ignoramus's.

Warluster needs either to kill Ulrich in his save or backtrack to do his turn again.

TinCow

07-02-2007, 13:46

For the record, I'm holding off on transferring Ulrich to the Mausoleum until I see some kind of official report of his death.

gibsonsg91921

07-02-2007, 16:29

console command kill him. idk how its done but i know it can be

Ituralde

07-02-2007, 16:30

Just drop me a note please, when the savegame gets uploaded so that I can fight against the Hungarians for AussieGiant!

OverKnight

07-02-2007, 17:16

When fighting a battle between turns, it is possible to save after your battle while the computer is moving the AI factions. This means you can save before the start of turns screens and such and leave it for the Chancellor to deal with them.

Once we sort out which save were using, could we clear up what actually has and hasn't happened in game, so I can get the chronology right?

Stig

07-02-2007, 17:52

Once we sort out which save were using, could we clear up what actually has and hasn't happened in game, so I can get the chronology right?
I'll try to remember, but I can tell you that little has happened.
2 characters (be it priests, merchants, spies or diplomats) died.
Buildings finished ofcourse.

And I believe a couple of traits where acquired, but nothing big IIRC.

But there were loads of messages, many to do with the actions of Ansehelm and Peter.

AussieGiant

07-02-2007, 18:14

Just drop me a note please, when the savegame gets uploaded so that I can fight against the Hungarians for AussieGiant!

Thanks Ituralde.

Stuperman

07-02-2007, 18:15

Hey, Hey all Happy CANADA DAY (belated) to all the canucks out there, and happy independence day to all the yanks. I've been busy with the celebrations all weekend, and will get caught up tomorrow. Just wanted to make sure I didn't have a battle waiting for me.

gibsonsg91921

07-02-2007, 18:16

dont forget bastille day's coming up for all u frenchies

Stig

07-02-2007, 18:48

Ah, Quartorze Julliet (or however they write it)

The day that all Frenchies want to win a Tour de France stage and most of them fail, most of the time all of them.

GeneralHankerchief

07-02-2007, 19:13

Warluster, your inbox is full. Attached in the spoiler is what I was going to say:

Mein Kaiser,

I am writing to humbly request a change in the leadership of the force to be sent to Adana. While Wolfgang Hummel was no doubt a worthy fighter in avenging his father's death, he is still not a knight and unable to lead an army into battle.

Instead, I recommend that Karl Zirn (Northnovas) be tabbed to lead the army. I know him from the time we Crusaded and can tell you that he is extremely able and also a bit older. Perhaps you could send Wolfgang along and hopefully he will get knighted in due course.

God be with you.

Conrad Salier

Ignoramus

07-02-2007, 22:57

Please use my save, otherwise Wolfgang won't be knighted.

Warluster

07-02-2007, 23:22

Okay, Igmoramus, what if I make Karl Zirn lead the army, and Wolfgang second in command, then he can be knighted, then when Matthias (OK) arrives, he can goveron Adana?

1244-3.rar (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1244-3.rar)

Theres the save file for Ituralde's Sally Forth, and for any curious people who want to check out the situation.

GeneralHankerchief

07-03-2007, 00:13

I think that would be best for all parties.

OverKnight

07-03-2007, 08:18

Do we still have Zombie Ulrich in the latest save?

Ituralde

07-03-2007, 10:20

I'll fight the battle this afternoon, when I'm back from University.
Expect the new save to be up around 5 to 6 pm GMT.

TinCow

07-03-2007, 12:26

So exactly how long is Lothar going to have to spend in a church to get rid of Hexxed and Wracking Cough? I'm not keen on another religious awakening.

OverKnight

07-03-2007, 13:07

That stupid witch is now four for four when it comes to Steffens, either through direct action or inherited traits.

Can't we nuke Corsica from Orbit? It's the only way to be sure.

Arghh, the Bavarian chambers are beginning to sound like a sanitorium.

McIwoo

07-03-2007, 13:16

Can't we nuke Corsica from Orbit? It's the only way to be sure.

You should try to visit the area, although some of its people are :furious3: it's actually very nice... :laugh4:

If we bring some artillery and take Ajaccio in one turn (without besieging), can that :furious3: witch still get to us once we're in the city? I think the Edict stipulates that we need to do this in 5 turns or so :no:

TinCow

07-03-2007, 13:23

Can't we nuke Corsica from Orbit? It's the only way to be sure.

As long as the witch is taken care of, I will do the rest.

Stuperman

07-03-2007, 14:06

OMG, how hard is it to stomp the witch 1st? I mean honestly our entire GD house is getting :daisy:d by her, and not in a good way.

and why is Jens von Kassel leadiong the Sardinian army, He's unassigned.

TinCow

07-03-2007, 14:29

And he's not a Bavarian.

I don't mind Lothar being Hexxed and having a Wracking Cough, since the whole witch curse on the Steffen family thing makes for interesting RP. However at some point this needs to be dealt with in a competent manner. When Sigismund was assassinated, I went all-out stomping on French agents and was careful about who I put along the French border. When Henry was tried for heresy, I promptly stomped the Inquisitors around him and kept him moving. The curse is fine, just take care of the witch in a nice logical manner.

Stuperman

07-03-2007, 14:35

I believe that Jens Von Kassel Married Gerhard's Daughter.

TinCow

07-03-2007, 14:40

No, I checked. He married one of von Hamburg's old maid daughters and is a Franconian. I think. Maybe it was a Swabian daughter. Regardless, he's way over on the left side of the family tree.

Stuperman

07-03-2007, 14:56

:daisy:?!? Why are unassigned franconian's leading half the BHA?

and who married Gerhard's daughter?

econ21

07-03-2007, 15:09

Bavarians: I recommend giving Warluster some specific instructions either in character or out of character; the Diet is quiet so you could also do it in character/in public (it depends how technical it is). Maybe the Duke should handle the liaison?

The ideal, IMO, is that the Dukes and King of Outremer formulate strategy for their domains and the Chancellor implements it. But that requires good communication (both ways) and frequent checking of savegames etc.

Stig

07-03-2007, 15:28

:daisy:?!? Why are unassigned franconian's leading half the BHA?
He's going to bring it up north and hand it over to me :bounce:
You can have Gerhard to come with him if you still want to ~D

Apart from the fact I made that up it ain't a bad idea ofcourse ~D

Stuperman

07-03-2007, 15:39

Well, If he's going north he's headed in the wrong direction, I'll get in contact with warluster.

Ituralde

07-03-2007, 15:58

Well Jens von Kassel is only leading a small portion of the BHA, the larger part is on a ship, after fleeing from the Sardinian witch. Jens is also accompanied by Gerhard Steffen, who is the nominal leader I guess.

I fought the battle and won. Ulrich Hümmel is still alive though and I don't quite understand why he a) hasn't been killed yet or b) why the other save wasn't used. We're still in the same move and the changes made until now appear rather minor.

Well except for the battle I just fought. I only checked after fighting, whether Hümmel is alive or not.

Either way the Bavarians might want to check out the tax levels of their settlements, or tell the Emperor to do so. Same goes for the House of Austria. Glad that I gave away the post of Count of Budapest, he would be pissed at loosing his town.

Oh and Warluster could you please abandon the fort and let Sigismund join the AHA. Then move them north to meet up with the expelled garrison of Budapest. I'll talk the rest through with AussieGiant and he will let you know what he thinks.

Cheers!

Ituralde

Savegame (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1144-4.rar)

Stuperman

07-03-2007, 16:04

There's a witch on Sardinia too?

I thought there was only a witch on Corsica?

Ituralde

07-03-2007, 16:06

Uh... I meant Corsica then. Sorry, always seem to mix up those two islands! :sweatdrop:

And you should really lower the taxes in Italy. Rome, Florence, Milan, and Marseille are all currently revolting. Would be a shame to loose them all.

Stuperman

07-03-2007, 16:18

Yeah, a couple of time I had to google the Island names to keep them straight, I try and remember that S stands for South and Sardinia, and Sardidnia is the southernmost of the 2.

AussieGiant

07-03-2007, 16:37

Thanks Ituralde.

If you don't mind can you be my eyes and ears for Austrian Duke orders?

As you know I can't see the saved games.

If none of the other Austrian Nobles mind that is what I would prefer.

So I guess Sigismund was not part of the fort fight and is still unknighted.

I guess he will have to consolidate with the expelled garrison and be part of the retaking of Budapest.

Cheers
AG

Ituralde

07-03-2007, 16:49

You'll see about Sigismund once you check the screenshots. He came in as reinforcement, so he was fighting alongside Arnold and should have earned his knighthood.

AussieGiant

07-03-2007, 16:59

You'll see about Sigismund once you check the screenshots. He came in as reinforcement, so he was fighting alongside Arnold and should have earned his knighthood.

You think? :2thumbsup:

I've just told him that he didn't in the Austrian thread.

I need him with me to take Budapest back at the moment so he's the second GB unit plus I need some Cav no?

I'll knight him in that action.

Ituralde

07-03-2007, 17:47

Well, he did quite well, but then I find it a refreshing difference that he doesn't get knighted immediatelly after his first battle.

AussieGiant

07-03-2007, 20:41

Yes I think it's time for some quality assurance with handing out knighthoods. :)

Christ, if I think about my knighthood it was an absolute blood bath in Durazzo.

A walk in the park on your horse is not qualification for me.

TinCow

07-03-2007, 21:18

"When I was your age, I had to kill 147 Armored Sergeants while fighting uphill in the snow just to become a squire!"

econ21

07-03-2007, 21:23

I fought the battle and won. Ulrich Hümmel is still alive though and I don't quite understand why he a) hasn't been killed yet or b) why the other save wasn't used.

I don't understand either, but I guess we have to turn a blind eye to it until Warluster does find a way to kill him. I uploaded the save and can't get the console command "character_reset" to work on him, so I can't move him into danger. Also, with him strangely having been moved to safety in Aleppo province, I don't imagine he will be killable next turn either.

Savegame (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1144-4.rar)

Warluster please play on from Ituralde's save. And remember to give the AI money before you click end turn.

TinCow

07-03-2007, 21:28

How to move characters from a PM I sent:

Third, move all members of the faction that you want to exist over there by using (w/o quotes) "move_character CHARACTERNAME COORDINATES". For instance, if you wanted to move Markus Steffen to 122,333 you would type (w/o quotes) "move_character Markus Steffen 122,333". Capitalization DOES matter for character names. Be aware that this will not only move the character, but also all army units and agents with him. For this reason, I find it useful to combine as much as possible into one stack, so you only have to do it once. Repeat this step until you have multiple stacks to move.

AussieGiant

07-03-2007, 21:33

"When I was your age, I had to kill 147 Armored Sergeants while fighting uphill in the snow just to become a squire!"

Well that just nothin!

back in the day...just to get the chance to be a squire, you had to use a dagger a shield, walk two days, then kill 230 Italian Speamen, at night, with your left hand!!

Warluster

07-03-2007, 22:52

I haven't knocked off Ulrich in the save yet as whenever he verused the Turkish Armies he won. So I've sent him off to fight some Mongols. I'll try that move character thing next turn.

McIwoo

07-03-2007, 23:23

Would it be possible to keep the saves in .zip (as I think it mostly was)? Yes I know there are some good .rar compliant softs out there...but gosh why installing something when you have something already working fine (i talk for the windows users), the gain is meaningless anyway...

I dun mean to offend anyone of course!

GeneralHankerchief

07-03-2007, 23:46

I'd like to request to Warluster that if he gets a marriage proposal for Heidwigis von Saxony, please accept it. Heidwigis is one of the few people still related to Kaiser Heinrich by blood left.

Warluster

07-03-2007, 23:50

Okae Dokey.

Shall be picking up save soon, will do all the House Armie Moves/etc, then shall end turn!

OverKnight

07-04-2007, 05:29

I'd like to request to Warluster that if he gets a marriage proposal for Heidwigis von Saxony, please accept it. Heidwigis is one of the few people still related to Kaiser Heinrich by blood left.

Actually GH, Hans, Elberhard and Arnold are grandsons of Heinrich and Wolfgang Hummel and Jens Hummel are great-grandsons. The blood line is also carried on if Karl Zirn has any kids with Leopold's daughter. All the others are adoptees or children of adoptees.

I know what you mean though, I wish Otto had some kids to carry on your blood line, though who knows what unholy terror a von Kassel/Heinrich hybrid would have been. Now it's just Steffens and a Salier in Bavaria.

FactionHeir

07-04-2007, 06:48

The command you are looking for, econ, for character_reset, is:
character_reset "Ulrich Hummel" note with u instead of ü, as this is the way the name file is set up.

Btw, will be checking forums only once a day most likely for the next two or so months.

TinCow

07-04-2007, 14:38

character_reset kills faction members? Does it also work on agents? (I'm compiling instructions for Gahzette Challenge creation.)

Also, my computer is back up and running just fine. I have no more restrictions on fighting battles.

Ituralde

07-04-2007, 15:25

character_reset resets the movement points for that character. You can then go ahead and try to kill him by engaging in a battle.

TinCow

07-04-2007, 15:46

Ah. FYI, there is one sure-fire way to kill off faction members.

1) Have them attack an army with ranged units.
2) Move them into range of the missiles.
3) Turn them around so they are being hit in the back.
4) Wait and avoid any melee that approaches.

Generals pretty much never rout without melee contact, so they will sit and get hit with missiles until the general dies, even if Wavering. I do this whenever I have someone I really want to kill off. Engaging them in melee risks survival by rout.

gibsonsg91921

07-04-2007, 15:48

i prefer to deathcharge into a column of spearmen and get enveloped, but thats just me.

Stig

07-04-2007, 15:50

No, it's easy,turn your bodyguard so that the first unit the enemy will hit will be the general (90 degrees to the right), guard mode on and let them attack

Dutch_guy

07-04-2007, 17:50

I still prefer the glorious death by stack-of-enemy-ships.

:balloon2:

econ21

07-04-2007, 19:53

Shall be picking up save soon, will do all the House Armie Moves/etc, then shall end turn!

How's it going, Warluster?

Lt. Pinard

07-04-2007, 20:20

Hey guys,
Just discovered this site like a week ago and one of the first things I've noticed is this PBEM. I must say I've never been in one before but this makes me wish I could join.

Yet my computer had been taken over by the comp daemons:smash: (Doing this from a back up computer.) and I cant play M2TW.

Yes it's sad I know you can cry with me if you want. ~:mecry:

But anyways I just really felt the need to tell you guys that this is a great read. Its an amazing story.
I've read the whole Council of Crusaders/Kingdom of Outremer thread, and it read like a great story.
Read the timeline too helped me catch up faster.

I'm in the middle of the story thread and plan on reading the last few Diets just for fun.

So anyways I'm just telling you guys that your doing a great job keep it up.

GeneralHankerchief

07-04-2007, 20:39

Welcome to the .Org, Lt. Pinard! ~:wave:

Always good to know that we have an audience. I hope that you're able to join the PBM sometime soon and in the meantime, keep reading! :yes:

Stuperman

07-04-2007, 20:40

Welcom to the .ORG Lt. Pinard!

Thanks for the praise, I think I speak for everyone when I say it's been a labour of love. You don't have to have the game to join, You can role play an avatar(be it general, priest, merchant, diplomat, ect.) if you want, and contribute to the Diet In character. You could also join as a nameless elector without an assigned avatar, more people are always welcome, I encourage you to.

Lt. Pinard

07-04-2007, 22:41

Thanks for the warm welcome. The Non-general character might be an option but Ill have to think on it.
See If I can do anything useful by being such a character.

Also I have a question I've been wondering about. In some of the stories and the Diet itself characters meet face to face.
Does that translate in game too? Like for Diet do all characters get moved to one city?

OverKnight

07-04-2007, 23:15

Avatars stay where they are on the game map. The face to face Diet Sessions are a conceit that helps in role playing.

So even if Jobst, for example, is located in northern Europe and Conrad Salier is in Damascus, they can still attend the Diet and "talk" to each other. Given that were playing two year turns, it's not too much of a stretch.

The actual location of the Avatars is only important for battles and other game actions.

Stig

07-04-2007, 23:22

Yup, tho when Ansehelm goes on crusade against Russia I will simply have him leaving the Diet till he comes back.
But then, in real people could travel from Rome to Thorn in 3 months or so. Outremer is a different case tho.

Lt. Pinard

07-05-2007, 01:37

Thats what I assumed you did. Justing roleplaying in when the distance was nesscary.

Yup, tho when Ansehelm goes on crusade against Russia I will simply have him leaving the Diet till he comes back.
Like that

TinCow

07-05-2007, 04:36

You certainly do not need to have a general in order to participate. In fact, I kind of miss the WOTS 'backbenchers' who always provided a few extra swing votes in important elections. We've actually got several extra generals at the moment, so you could even take one and just not fight. Either keep the guy in a city or take your chances with autoresolve.

Current Charter Amendments allow for general-less players to become Counts as well, so you can even give build queues and advance in rank. If you would like to join, I would suggest Austria, as they have the fewest players at the moment and could use a few more Diet votes.

Warluster

07-05-2007, 09:53

I have/am uploading the 1244 final save.

Am ending turn now.

StoneCold

07-05-2007, 09:59

warluster, I think sardina was to be gifted to the sicilians anyway. We could just help them siege the city, it would still be IC as they are our oldest allies.

Warluster

07-05-2007, 10:06

Sicily isn't siegeing it though, their just standing nearby. Its the SPanish who are siegeing it.

econ21

07-05-2007, 12:46

I have/am uploading the 1244 final save.

Am ending turn now.

The only save so far is Ituralde's. There's little point uploading a final 1244 save if there are no more battles. A start of 1245 one would be more interesting, but remember to give the AI its cash flow injection.

Stuperman

07-05-2007, 13:38

The invasion of Corsica and Sardniia has turned into a comedy of errors, this is terrible.....

gibsonsg91921

07-05-2007, 14:25

man diet is so quiet... i might start an argument for no reason!

Stig

07-05-2007, 14:27

man diet is so quiet... i might start an argument for no reason!
There's nothing to discuss about, we need to see the next year

gibsonsg91921

07-05-2007, 14:28

yeah, im afraid that im slowly starting to be more respected tho... i wouldnt want to argue about nothing, per se...

econ21

07-05-2007, 16:51

Warluster - it is 48 hours since Ituralde posted his save; what is the hold up?

Stig

07-05-2007, 17:04

The fact that it's night in Australia ~D

Guess some reallife business, we have that, but than you are a mod, we all know you're a bot

:hide:

Warluster

07-05-2007, 22:12

Sorry, I won't say any excuses but this: I will try to get the save up, but I'm going mountain climbing!\

I hit end turn but forgot the cash thing, doing that now. Theres a few exciting things happening in 1246! :P

Warluster

07-05-2007, 22:24

I am/have uploaded the 1246 save.

Stig

07-06-2007, 13:38

Any battles to fight?
Thorn is under siege, can we sally out?

econ21

07-06-2007, 14:23

Any battles to fight?
Thorn is under siege, can we sally out?

Given that Warluster is probably up a mountain somewhere, I think it would be ok to take some initiative and sally out. I have not looked, but suspect there is more than one player controlled general in Thorn - can you liase to sort out who fights the battle?

Stig

07-06-2007, 14:56

Right, it's an all cav army we will have to fight, and we need to fight it as the Ruskies are bringing up another big army, and we need all the retraining we can get now.

Gibson, DG or myself can fight it. Peter will command it, make it a night battle, Peter will have more command then.
If Gibson or DG don't fight it till tomorrow I will fight it.

gibsonsg91921

07-06-2007, 15:13

u can take it stig, im busy

Dutch_guy

07-06-2007, 21:02

u can take it stig, im busy

That's seconded. May have holidays, but that's taking up more time than I expected it to :2thumbsup:

:balloon2:

Warluster

07-06-2007, 23:47

Okae Dokey:

Stig, you can sally out if you want.

Paris is under siege, Xdeathfire you have the SHA nearby, do you wish to attack?

1246-1.zip save (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1246-1.zip)

Theres the save, first to claim is first to play, but say you've got it!

Privateerkev

07-07-2007, 04:44

Hello

I've been reading the posts around here lately and I'm really intrigued by this PBM. I've never done one before but I have a.) played MTW2 since the beginning of the year, b.) played STW and MTW from way back, and c.) LARP'ed so I have a grasp of IC and OOC. I do warn you that I am a little hesitant to make a huge time commitment due to being a grad student and working full time this summer. Also I am hesitant to load mods onto my computer because I have this thing for wanting to stick with vanilla and official patches.

So, thank you for being patient with me and keep up the good work. I applaud you all for making a rich story that is fun to read.

^_^

Warluster

07-07-2007, 05:09

Awesome,

Seeing as you've read over the OOC thread, I am sure you know, this game doesn't HAVE to take up lots of time, if your playing as just a elector,etc. btw, if you can't fight battles then just Auto it or let someone else fight it.

The game CAN take up lots of time if you fill in higher positions (chancellor,Duke,etc) and if you check the threads constantly :P

Ituralde

07-07-2007, 09:18

Also the mod thing is pretty painless. If you follow the quite easy explanations, you will end up with the possibility to play the game modded or to play the game unmodded. I have two shortcuts on my desktop, one leading to the modded game and one to the vanilla version. So your ability to play vanilla will not be hindered.

Privateerkev

07-07-2007, 11:10

hmm, that certainly helps my decision. Well, I'm up for joining if you guys will have me. If you have a general avatar to spare I'll take it. I notice that there are five free but I don't know if any/or all are spoken for. While I feel bad that the houses are a little unbalanced, I would prefer to be in one where there is room for growth. That would seem to preclude Austria or Bavaria for the moment. Franconia has 4 free spots but I read on here that up to three characters have aged to the point where the players will need new characters soon. So, if someone with the authority would let me know what my options are, I'll pick from that.

Thanks,
^_^

econ21

07-07-2007, 11:55

Welcome, Privateerkev! It seems only Franconia has spare avatars at the moment (the spare Swabian is too old to invest in), so you have a free pick of any of the four available in that House. There are a few details here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1383081&postcount=1

There mugshots and traits may be reported on in the library.

TevashSzat

07-07-2007, 13:16

I dled the save and will fight it later today

Stig

07-07-2007, 18:34

Haven't been able to fight today yet, and since Xdeath is going first I'll fight it first thing tomorrow.

TevashSzat

07-08-2007, 01:03

Okay, I just finished fighting the battle and got a heroic victory yet again. I unfortunately, forgot to take a screenshot of the victory screen statistics, but still remember them. I lost 93 men while I killed 280 and captured 503 French after which I executed.

I have something that has been nagging me, the SHA is just incredibly weak with barely any decent units other than some imperial knights. It would be really helpful given that we have like 30k in the treasury atm to get some new units hired. I am using halberd militia to fight dismounted knights and using mounted sergeants to fight noble knights. If it weren’t for my well placed charges and hoping for a mass rout, my infantry line will literally collapse within 30 secs and everyone will rout. The French also have some really big and scary armies just around the Paris province so yet again, get me a SHA to dream for.

gibsonsg91921

07-08-2007, 01:22

u should request that in the diet : P

OverKnight

07-08-2007, 01:43

I have to second what gibsonsg91921 said, it's a legitimate complaint, but it should be taken up in the Diet since it's an IC concern. Also it'll make for a good debate there.

econ21

07-08-2007, 01:44

Just to say that Privateerkev has been assigned Jan von Hamburg.

gibsonsg91921

07-08-2007, 02:22

nice.. more franconians to raise a little heck

Stig

07-08-2007, 12:24

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr-1246-3.rar

Fought and won.
Warluster I filled Thorns recruitement queue, up to you to agree to it, but Thorn really needs good infantry as there's a big Polish army coming and I intend to massacre it.

Also, if you think Ansehelm can leave town safely and head to Magdeburg you have my permission to make him move out.

Ituralde

07-08-2007, 13:18

Welcome to the House of Franconia, privateerkev!

Privateerkev

07-08-2007, 16:13

Thanks Ituralde!

Just have been trying to get caught up. Looks like I picked an....interesting time to join the game. :D

gibsonsg91921

07-08-2007, 17:00

lol u should have been there before the last chancellorship election and gotten fredericus voted in.. : P

Privateerkev

07-08-2007, 17:14

Well hindsight is 20/20. Yeah I was looking over old threads and saw that. It is safe to assume that Jan would have voted for his dad. But I had only just started posting in the guild back then and didn't even know about PBM. I lurked for a year or two but only in the citadel and the faction guides.

TinCow

07-08-2007, 21:48

If Ulrich hadn't been elected, we would've missed out on some good entertainment.

AussieGiant

07-08-2007, 22:14

It was certainly some of the most intense PM'ing and back room dealing I've been involved in since the game started.

I really hope we work out ways to keep this going for awhile.

I'd like to give the Chancellor job a go, but I will not be able to do that until October due to work issues.

gibsonsg91921

07-08-2007, 22:49

lol i accidentally received a letter from iggy to the austrian electors saying if fredericus got elected the franconians would have their way, so vote hummel

Privateerkev

07-08-2007, 22:54

Well, no matter what has happened, a Swabian is Still chancellor. I'm sure that coincidence did not escape them when the wheeling and dealing was being done. ;)

Stig

07-08-2007, 23:02

I'd like to give the Chancellor job a go, but I will not be able to do that until October due to work issues.
Same here, but for me it's September

Warluster

07-08-2007, 23:06

@Privateerkev
Right now? A Swabian isn't chancellor right now, but yes, Ulrich was.

gibsonsg91921

07-08-2007, 23:34

yeah now that hes kaiser, hes not in any house.

TinCow

07-09-2007, 00:05

Theoretically, but he's free to favor whoever he wishes.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 01:51

yeah now that hes kaiser, hes not in any house.

So, kaiser's rule completely unbiased and don't give any favor or extra consideration to other houses? riiiiiight...

I may be new and naive at this game but if you believe the above, I have a bridge I would like to sell you...

:laugh4:

----------------------------------
*edit*

After taking a look at the savegame I have come to the conclusion that this or a past chancellor hates all four houses equally because this game is !@#$%'d with a chainsaw. If this was single player I'd just start over. The good news is that it will make for a very interesting roleplaying game which I suspect is what some have been pushing for behind the scenes when they/them completely sabotaged this game. Just to be clear, I am not complaining. I rather play something with some excitement and drama in it. We didn't sign up to play Medieval Total Pajama Party 2.

gibsonsg91921

07-09-2007, 04:01

i meant technically hes no longer a swabian. obviously hes only human...

GeneralHankerchief

07-09-2007, 04:25

The good news is that it will make for a very interesting roleplaying game which I suspect is what some have been pushing for behind the scenes when they/them completely sabotaged this game.

Sabotaged?

Sabotaged??!!

My friend, if we wanted sabotage then I would just run for Chancellor, win, take control of our neighboring factions by using a script and march every single one of their armies into our territory.

This isn't sabotage. This is just an interesting situation. :laugh4:

Warluster

07-09-2007, 04:44

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 05:23

i meant technically hes no longer a swabian. obviously hes only human...

All I meant was that I suspect that there was some backroom dealing and the fact that an avatar formerly of the Swabian house was going to replace a Swabian avatar as chancellor, had to have factored in. People have replied with the fact that Kaisers officially renounce their house. And I am fully aware of that. I am just saying that I suspect that the Kaisers keep playing politics even after they are houseless. I know it would shock and surprise all of you to even consider that someone in politics could be political but there is my audacious claim. :laugh4:

Sabotaged?

Sabotaged??!!

My friend, if we wanted sabotage then I would just run for Chancellor, win, take control of our neighboring factions by using a script and march every single one of their armies into our territory.

This isn't sabotage. This is just an interesting situation. :laugh4:

Well, since I am assuming that all of you are at least moderately decent TW players, then I can only surmise that we are in the situation we are in because someone or someones decided to "spice things up a bit." And I didn't mean "sabotage" as in blow-up-the-game-next-turn-so-no-one-has-fun. I meant "sabotage" as in throw-the-game-a-little-to-make-it-less-boring.

Lets make a list of general strategic errors about this game:

1.) Many cities are taxed right into revolt. The taxes can be lower and most cities have free upkeep slots that aren't being used. Also damaged buildings aren't being repaired.

2.) The borders are way overextended and there are no natural "walls." In TW games its normal to make the number of borders that border other factions as small as possible. I call these territories "doors". A line of doors, I call a "wall". The best example is in MTW where you have Lithuania and Kiev cutting off Russia from the rest of Europe. This was more important in STW and MTW because it just took one force to guard a territory where now you have to guard multiple ways into a single territory. But the idea still holds. We have way too many doors.

3.) We have almost no navy. Especially for the kinds of movement people want to do with their avatars.

4.) Force distribution is totally out of proportion to the threats we are facing.
We have forces in the middle where they seem to be just sitting when there are dangers on the borders. Even allowing for the fact that some could have been just built, there are still way too many in the middle.

5.) City and castle choices are off too. Any territory that has a port should be a city. Some interior spots and some strategic "doors" should be castles. This way we make money. Too many castles means you just have things you don't have the money to buy.

6.) It seems like we accepted way too many guilds. When you don't have alot of money the guild accepting really sucks up the florins.

7.) It seems like we are planning new offensives when we can't even defend what we have. Ideally, we should give away some of what we have and consolidate the Reich so it is easier to defend.

Conclusion: We are severely economically and strategically hampered and in very real danger of experiencing major setbacks in the near future. If we don't give up territories and consolidate, we will have territories taken from us.

So, I can only come to two possible answers as to why we are in this predicament. Either some of us are completely incompetent(which I do not believe). Or someone or someones are either making things break through poor strategic planning or benign neglect. I know some of you may claim a third reason is the democratic nature of our game but since there is only one person actually playing the game at a time, I have discounted that out of hand.

OverKnight

07-09-2007, 06:19

Welcome aboard Privateerkev. It's always good to get a fresh set of eyes looking at the PBM. Your analysis is insightful, but I don't agree with your conclusion that the current Chancellor is deliberately sabotaging the game.

We've recently had, as you might be aware, an impeachment, and the previous Chancellor was able to leave quite a mark in the few years he was in power. It seems we're still recovering from that. Also, while I'm sure that all the players are good generals, we're all good to great on the battle map, the same might not be said of the campaign map, i.e. not everyone is a great administrator. By that, I mean taking the passed edicts, the build queues, the household army orders and the strategic situation and weaving them into a cohesive whole.

Of course I could be wrong, it's been known to happen.

Take your suspicions into the Diet. Your avatar is a Franconian, he should have no problem speaking out against the current and past regime. It'll make the IC discussion more interesting. You'll also become more familiar with the hinterlands of the Reich as your avatar builds watchtowers for the next 20 years. :laugh4:

Edit: As for Kaiser being outside the Houses and acting as a stabilizing force. . .Henry (econ21) kept to that ideal. Heinrich (GH) never had a house to begin with, but certainly did not shy away from being an "activist" Kaiser. It remains to be seen what approach Jobst (Warluster) will take.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 06:29

Your analysis is insightful, but I don't agree with your conclusion that the current Chancellor is deliberately sabotaging the game.

We've recently had, as you might be aware, an impeachment, and the previous Chancellor was able to leave quite a mark in the few years he was in power. It seems we're still recovering from that. Also, while I'm sure that all the players are good generals, we're all good to great on the battle map, the same might not be said of the campaign map, i.e. not everyone is a great administrator. By that, I mean taking the passed edicts, the build queues, the household army orders and the strategic situation and weaving them into a cohesive whole.

Of course I could be wrong, it's been known to happen.

Take your suspicions into the Diet. Your avatar is a Franconian, he should have no problem speaking out against the current and past regime. It'll make the IC discussion more interesting. You'll also become more familiar with the hinterlands of the Reich as your avatar builds watchtowers for the next 20 years. :laugh4:

I never said for sure that it was the current one. I said, "After taking a look at the savegame I have come to the conclusion that this or a past chancellor hates all four houses equally because this game is !@#$%'d with a chainsaw."

As for IC, my character would not say that right now. IC I am a young naive idealistic crusader who is afraid of offending his betters and dishonoring his father. OOC I am an outspoken and opinionated grad student who is often accused of thinking far too much about things. :beam:

All I have been doing is making observations and positing my theories as to what may have caused what I am observing. I will reiterate, I am not complaining. IC I would be appalled and dismayed at the poor state of affairs in the Reich. OCC I am highly amused and relish the challenge and rich RP'ing opportunities. I only made the list to support my theory that someone has or is throwing a monkey wrench into the game for the purpose of providing us a richer and more exciting game experience. It would be boring if we womped the AI and had the whole world by now...

OverKnight

07-09-2007, 06:41

Well, we are giving gobs of money to the AI factions, and we have taken OOC steps to keep the game challenging that a single player wouldn't normally do, i.e. let Milan hang around or curb our expansion.

Also there tends to weak points at the end of one term and the beginning of another, when the PBM is handed off. I guess the shift in philosophies, playing style and goals of each Chancellor causes this. Also, it depends on the Electors. Our navy has fallen into disrepair because it wasn't a point of emphasis in the past few Diet sessions for edicts.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 06:52

I think those are good points. It could simply be that stuff gets "lost in the handoff". I also have been known to be wrong many times. I still have my suspicions that there is more going on than we know. Its the nature of RP'ing. In most RP's and LARP's there becomes a point where the gm's and veteran players stop trying to win and start trying to come up with ways to keep the game fun and fresh so people will keep coming back every week. If we are playing to win, then we are doing exactly the wrong things. If we are playing to have fun and keep things interesting, then we are doing exactly the right things. If we played to win then the game would have been over by now and we'd just have to start a new one. I think it would also be less fun than it is now. So I definitely would prefer we keep doing what we are doing but I enjoy sitting and theorizing about what is going on behind the scenes. Since so little is going on IC all we can do right now is chat and gossip on the OCC thread.

econ21

07-09-2007, 09:55

Privateerkev, one of the fun things about PBMing is that everyone has their own idea about how to run a kingdom and it is fun as Chancellor to try to impose one's own ideas on top of what earlier players have bequeathed. I think you are right, the previous Chancellor, Ignoramus did try to stir things up but he had only a turn or two to do it (he was impeached for his pains), so he can't be blamed for everything you list. The current Chancellor has had only a turn or so to make his mark.

A few thoughts on your observations:

1.) Many cities are taxed right into revolt. The taxes can be lower and most cities have free upkeep slots that aren't being used. Also damaged buildings aren't being repaired.

The latest savegame is a start of turn situation - hopefully the Chancellor will lower taxes and repair buildings.

2.) The borders are way overextended and there are no natural "walls."

We've expanded in a higgledy-piggledy kind of way - there was an initial burst of expansion, but then there has been a tension between Houses wanting to conquer neighbours and others wanting to curtail expansion. Only Outremer's borders have really been planned and then they were designed without consideration of "walls" - indeed, the whole idea was to make us overextended and vulnerable to Turks, Egyptians and Mongols.

3.) We have almost no navy. Especially for the kinds of movement people want to do with their avatars.

I suspect there is an untold story about our navy. We had a massive fleet that landed Hans near Sofia - it's not visible any more. There was also a large Egyptian fleet that - in some games where I played on from the save - destroyed several of our smaller fleets. I can't see that enemy fleet now. I wonder if there has been some interesting naval action that has not been emphasised in discussion.

4.) Force distribution is totally out of proportion to the threats we are facing.
We have forces in the middle where they seem to be just sitting when there are dangers on the borders. Even allowing for the fact that some could have been just built, there are still way too many in the middle.

We have tended to play with 4 Household Armies + Jobst's armies in Europe. Outremer has been catching its breath from the 1st Mongol wave, but was deliberately kept dispersed by the Hummel.

5.) City and castle choices are off too. Any territory that has a port should be a city. Some interior spots and some strategic "doors" should be castles. This way we make money. Too many castles means you just have things you don't have the money to buy.

Money has not been a constraint, in my experience. In fact, we've been looking for ways to waste it (mandating the construction of religious buildings) to make things more challenging. City-castle decisions are up to the governors and Dukes. Coastal Thorn and Ragusa were too well developed by the AI and too strategic to convert to cities. Ditto Acre and Adana.

6.) It seems like we accepted way too many guilds. When you don't have alot of money the guild accepting really sucks up the florins.

We have a lot of merchant guilds, which are lucrative. I haven't noticed an excess of other types.

7.) It seems like we are planning new offensives when we can't even defend what we have. Ideally, we should give away some of what we have and consolidate the Reich so it is easier to defend.

Try proposing that in character and see how many votes you get!

Stig

07-09-2007, 10:06

4.) Force distribution is totally out of proportion to the threats we are facing.
We have forces in the middle where they seem to be just sitting when there are dangers on the borders. Even allowing for the fact that some could have been just built, there are still way too many in the middle.
The only real force that is is near Magdeburg and that will be led by Ansehelm against Russia.
Which will also deal with your point #7. Currently our biggest enemies are France, Russia and Poland on the European mainland.
The Diet has not allowed Swabia to move against France.
Ansehelm will destroy the Russian threat by moving against Moscow and sacking it. (By the time he gets back there will be a new Diet session, and I intend to let him either sack some Russian cities on the return trip or move into Poland).
And while Ansehelm makes sure the Russian are getting what they deserve the FHA can easely stop the Poles that want to attack Thorn.

FactionHeir

07-09-2007, 11:30

A better way of looking at the state of the empire is by checking out the first save and the last save of each chancellorship. That way you can see what each chancellor has done overall and where there are strengths and weaknesses in administration. Of course that has to then be looked at in context of edicts and CAs.

I believe that we've been doing quite well so far in terms of minding our own business rather than aggressively expanding.

Northnovas

07-09-2007, 12:40

btw all, a while ago I recommeneded the BBB mod, I've tried it out with DLV, its awesome! You can actually become a Count INGAME! PLus a GrandMaster and stuff! THere are things like conqueror of Constaniople, plus being a Count gives you extra traits!

I highly suggest we use it.

I have been playing this mode too. Trying to record it for an AAR with the English. Very interesting for young avatars to develope by keeping them in capitals or cities with religous buildings to build traits.

TinCow

07-09-2007, 13:45

I still have my suspicions that there is more going on than we know. Its the nature of RP'ing. In most RP's and LARP's there becomes a point where the gm's and veteran players stop trying to win and start trying to come up with ways to keep the game fun and fresh so people will keep coming back every week.

Everything is exactly as it appears. There is no man behind the curtain. Ignore the cameras and continue about your business. All is well. http://absolutedreams.net/forums/smiley/ninja.gif

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 14:19

Try proposing that in character and see how many votes you get!

*sigh* It seems again that I have not made myself clear. This is not about proposing things in character. This is about being bored and gossiping on an OOC thread about the game on a pure strategic level as well as trying to divine the back room machinations that go on in all RP style games. I have no intention of talking about this IC anytime in the near future because my character probably wouldn't even know half of this stuff and he certainly wouldn't say anything. Others are more than welcome to take up this cause IC as long as they don't metagame and attribute or infer the quotes and ideas to me.

Money has not been a constraint, in my experience. In fact, we've been looking for ways to waste it (mandating the construction of religious buildings) to make things more challenging. City-castle decisions are up to the governors and Dukes. Coastal Thorn and Ragusa were too well developed by the AI and too strategic to convert to cities. Ditto Acre and Adana.

From my experience, we are making far too little money for the size of Empire we have. And its not just the army's fault because it is relatively small in proportion to our land mass. Its not that our army expenditure is too big for our empire. Its that it is that it is too big for our economy because our economy is too small for our empire. We do not have anywhere the money to do all the things people want to do. I suspect that some thought one way to curtail expansion would be to starve the economy to the point where we can't do what we want with it and are forced to make cuts and concessions.

indeed, the whole idea was to make us overextended and vulnerable to Turks, Egyptians and Mongols.

That, more than anything, proves my point. People here wanted to put us in a precarious situation to make it more interesting, and by extension, more fun. Now I don't mind that at all but I find it interesting that everyone is crawling out of the woodwork to deny it. Lets at least admit to each other OOC about how we conceptualize playing the game. I applaud the works of some to complicate our in game situation. I am just getting slightly annoyed that everyone is trying to deny it and getting defensive when I am pointing out the obvious.

The only real force that is is near Magdeburg and that will be led by Ansehelm against Russia.
Which will also deal with your point #7. Currently our biggest enemies are France, Russia and Poland on the European mainland.
The Diet has not allowed Swabia to move against France.
Ansehelm will destroy the Russian threat by moving against Moscow and sacking it. (By the time he gets back there will be a new Diet session, and I intend to let him either sack some Russian cities on the return trip or move into Poland).
And while Ansehelm makes sure the Russian are getting what they deserve the FHA can easely stop the Poles that want to attack Thorn.

Yes and from a purely strategic standpoint, letting you take a large percentage of our forces, send them against a larger and more superior enemy, deep into enemy land where you are likely to get cut off, and likely suffer flanking attacks that will soon take Thorn itself, is possibly the worse thing we could do as an Empire at the moment. And with the disposition of forces, I don't think we could take France right now or for the near future. The quality and quantity just aren't there and would force us to sacrifice other parts of the Empire for the near future.

I believe that we've been doing quite well so far in terms of minding our own business rather than aggressively expanding.

Were actually in the worst of both world right now. If your going to aggressively expand, then you should do it right and follow askthepizzaguy's model in the citadel. If your not going to expand, then you make an easily defendable empire and make smart calculated moves with your excess forces for obvious and immediate strategic gain. We have done neither. We have expanded like swords deep into territory claimed by other factions and pissed them off. Deep narrow thrusts into enemy territory always bring the risk of having your attack cut off at the base. At the very least it takes a disproportionate amount of resources to maintain and defend the frontier so far from source of supply, reinforcements, and flanking supporting armies. All we have done is made it inevitable that we will be at war on all sides for the duration of the game. And while that will probably make for a much more enjoyable game, I rather not have all of us lapse into denial at our strategic situation. If we are going to basically bound and gag ourselves, shouldn't we be fostering OOC discussion about it so everyone's on the same page and doesn't get disappointed like Stig did during the last chancellor's reign?

In general, I'm kind of surprised at some of the responses I have gotten. I was hoping this line of conversation would spark discussion about the nature of the game we play together. Instead its mainly a list of denials and exasperations at the very idea that people could be political in what is essentially a political simulation. Being new here, I may have mis-understood what the OOC thread was for. Since I have gotten so much negative reaction and so little positive discussion, I will think more carefully about talking about my ideas and theories since so many people seem to be in denial about the nature of the game, defensive about how they play the game, or both.

-----------------------------------
*edit*

Everything is exactly as it appears. There is no man behind the curtain. Ignore the cameras and continue about your business. All is well.

When I read that, the scene in Star Wars flashed in my head when Obi-Wan was convincing the Stormtroopers that there was nothing to see here.:laugh4:

Its funny, your the first one to actually take my comments for how I meant them. Everyone else who has posted seems busy trying to persuade me there are no cameras. At least metaphorically speaking

TinCow

07-09-2007, 14:33

Its funny, your the first one to actually take my comments for how I meant them. Everyone else who has posted seems busy trying to persuade me there are no cameras. At least metaphorically speaking

Are puppets aware of the puppet master? Do they see their strings or do they believe they dance of their own volition?

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 14:43

Are puppets aware of the puppet master? Do they see their own strings or do they believe they dance for their own reasons?

I think some are aware to a point. It is possible to study power relationships, sociology, psychology, and history to the point where you do get somewhat more aware of the ways those in power compel you to do what they want you to do. Whats funny is that there are those on here that are trying to convince me that there is no puppet master when a game like this definitely needs one. If I was in a LARP and I made a comment that the ST's are trying to stir things up, everyone would shrug because its so obvious that that is what a good ST does. But here its treated like some sort of blasphemy. And when the GM of this game himself attempts to infer that there is no puppetmaster, that becomes more problematic because I have to wonder if he a.) really believes it or b.) is trying to discredit what I am saying in order keep the machinations secret. And I am talking about Econ but then he goes and basically admits that there are machinations going on behind the scene. I get the feeling that everyone is kind of admitting that I am right about some things but they would prefer I stop talking about it in public.

*sees a little red lazer dot on his chest and realizes he has said far too much*

x_x

*edited out grammer errors*

TinCow

07-09-2007, 14:50

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 14:53

Well, the nice thing about this kind of game is that there really isn't a specific person in control. econ21 'manages' the game, but he has no more influence in the actual proceedings than what he has earned IC. That means that anyone who manages to gain enough power can do what they will, whether everyone else is aware of it or not. It's already been done twice in a major manner our previous game, which resulted in a MP-style Civil War, and in the early days of this game when Kaiser Heinrich went his own way and attacked the Pope. If you want to throw a wrench into the works or otherwise stir things up, all you have to do is gain sufficient power. Everything else comes from there.

Again its nice to have someone admit that some of those that acquire the power to enact change, choose to do so for the purposes of making the game more interesting. A short and simple point but one that seems to have caused some debate and contention on this thread. I never accused anyone of doing it maliciously. I just claimed that it was being done because others seem to claim that it is not being done. This started with people trying to claim that Kaiser's never ever favor other houses and that no thought at all was given to the fact that the current kaiser/chancellor hails from the same house as the previous chancellor. This basically gave one house the ability to enact a political agenda without suffering major long term losses. The first chancellor was able to go and enact his/others agenda while knowing that if he was brought down, then another chancellor with roots from the same house would step into power. Pretty brilliant if you ask me because in game they seem to have gotten away with it. In fact it seems that even out of game no one has really caught on though I suspect a lot of people are keeping quiet about what they know. And it was me posting this theory that basically started this whole line of discussion and debate.

OverKnight

07-09-2007, 15:05

Stig

07-09-2007, 15:15

PrivateerKev why did you join if you don't agree to what we are doing?
We are playing this game out of fun, to have a good PBM, not to win as fast as possible. It's a game, it should be fun.

Yes and from a purely strategic standpoint, letting you take a large percentage of our forces, send them against a larger and more superior enemy, deep into enemy land where you are likely to get cut off, and likely suffer flanking attacks that will soon take Thorn itself, is possibly the worse thing we could do as an Empire at the moment. And with the disposition of forces, I don't think we could take France right now or for the near future. The quality and quantity just aren't there and would force us to sacrifice other parts of the Empire for the near future.
It won't weaken anything Magdeburg is used to train the army, while Magdeburg, being a small castle would normally not be used.
Sides it's fun, if you don't like it tough luck.
Sides France isn't to be taken, we don't expand without Edicts anymore, because we don't want to win yet.

I repeat, we play this game because it should be great fun, not because we want to win (tho that would be nice to do in 1500).

econ21

07-09-2007, 15:48

*sigh* It seems again that I have not made myself clear. This is not about proposing things in character.

No need to sigh - you were chrystal clear; apparently I was not. My saying "propose giving up provinces in character" was not a suggestion for what you should do. It was said simply to illustrate why this kind of game leads to people planning new offensives instead of giving up provinces to create defensive walls.

That, more than anything, proves my point. People here wanted to put us in a precarious situation to make it more interesting, and by extension, more fun. Now I don't mind that at all but I find it interesting that everyone is crawling out of the woodwork to deny it. Lets at least admit to each other OOC about how we conceptualize playing the game. I applaud the works of some to complicate our in game situation. I am just getting slightly annoyed that everyone is trying to deny it and getting defensive when I am pointing out the obvious.

Well, now you are not the only one getting slightly annoyed. I don't think anyone was being defensive or being in denial; we are discussing your observations in a friendly and open way. The tension between the urge to play your best game and the desire to keep the AI providing a challenge is one that we've openly discussed OOC from the beginning. :shrug:

This started with people trying to claim that Kaiser's never ever favor other houses and that no thought at all was given to the fact that the current kaiser/chancellor hails from the same house as the previous chancellor. This basically gave one house the ability to enact a political agenda without suffering major long term losses. The first chancellor was able to go and enact his/others agenda while knowing that if he was brought down, then another chancellor with roots from the same house would step into power. Pretty brilliant if you ask me because in game they seem to have gotten away with it. In fact it seems that even out of game no one has really caught on though I suspect a lot of people are keeping quiet about what they know. And it was me posting this theory that basically started this whole line of discussion and debate.

It's an interesting theory but I've seen little to suggest that Jobst subscribes to Hummel's agenda. Hummel's agenda - like Colonel Kurtz's methods in Apocalpyse Now - was hard to discern at the best of times. And in neither case can the Chancellor's actions be reduced to the promotion of Swabia's interests given the Swabian Duke is currently bemoaning the state of his Household Army.

gibsonsg91921

07-09-2007, 15:55

and i never said that the kaiser wouldnt stay above sectarian politics, i said technically they're not in any house anymore. but they probably won't alway recant past loyalties.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 16:47

Oh dear, before we go all Foucalt's Pendulum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucalt%27s_Pendulum) here, a review of the OCC threads will show what sorts of self-handicapping we have used and the debate on how much we should do it. It'll take some time to go over Privateerkev, but you'll get a sense of what we've gone through to reach the present balance.

Is it a conspiracy theory to claim that RP'ing games have politics? Thats like saying its a conspiracy to claim that football has coaches. Plus that book seems to have little/nothing to do with Michel Foucault who was one of the premier theorizers of power/knowledge. And despite having discussions about handicapping in the past, people seem loathe to do it now which is curious.

If we have played the PBM using askthepizzaguy's uber-blitzkrieg tactics, it would have been over by now. I prefer a more leisurely pace, others have different views.

I never claimed that we should. Its just that strategywise we are in the murky middle.

The PBM is also the product of committee decision making, and as such is imperfect and at times works at cross purposes. We have expanded and turtled at the whims of the Electors and Chancellors, and the paradigm can change from one Diet Session to another. To expect optimum game play, and that of course depends on how each of us defines it, is to court disappointment.

I never claimed that we could or should attempt to achieve optimum game play. Only that we don't. And that simple statement has led to much defensivness among some of you.

You're correct in that conversations about "house rules" and such belong in the OOC thread, but I think conversations about how we should conduct the business of the Empire, i.e. bring in more revenue or establishing a defensible border, should occur IC in the Diet or PMs.

I brought up the state of the empire as evidence to back up my theory that some players here are throwing a monkey wrench in the works to spice things up. I should be able to discuss the game OOC with you without being subjected to multiple requests to say it IC which I refuse to do at this time. I have only said what we should do if we wished to pursue actual strategy. I do not wish to pursue optimal strategy because I believe it would shorten the game and make it less fun. It was merely to drive home a point that the state of the empire is on such rocky grounds, it almost seems as if it was done on purpose because everyone here seems far too competent to cause it on accident. If we can not talk about the actual game itself OOC then why have an OOC thread? Its basically the equivalent of telling LARP'ers that they can't go out to coffee after the game.

PrivateerKev why did you join if you don't agree to what we are doing? We are playing this game out of fun, to have a good PBM, not to win as fast as possible. It's a game, it should be fun.

I joined because I thought it would be fun. And it is still fun. Its just that some of this discussion is not fun. And I completely agree with how you guys are running/playing this game. I am simply analyzing how all of you play this game and offering my analysis and opinion. I have never once actually complained. If you disagree with my analysis, then lets have a spirited healthy discussion on the mechanics of the game we play.

It won't weaken anything Magdeburg is used to train the army, while Magdeburg, being a small castle would normally not be used.
Sides it's fun, if you don't like it tough luck.

I never said you shouldn't take your character into Russia. I think it will make for a great story. I just hope your character doesn't die in the process. I'm just saying that from a purely strategic point of view it is exactly the wrong thing to do at this time.

-----------------------
*edit to include the comments that were made while I was writing this*

Well, now you are not the only one getting slightly annoyed. I don't think anyone was being defensive or being in denial; we are discussing your observations in a friendly and open way.

Well I will see your slightly annoyed and raise you my good sir to "slightly more than slightly annoyed". Without cutting and pasting what everyone has posted for the past day or two, I will only direct you to look at Stig's post and tell me how he is being friendly and open.

And in neither case can the Chancellor's actions be reduced to the promotion of Swabia's interests given the Swabian Duke is currently bemoaning the state of his Household Army.

Unless it is the player/players themselves that want this due to the increased interest and danger. I never claimed people are doing things in game solely for their character's agenda. I think some people are doing things in game for their own player's agenda. Which is fine by me. I just never expected so many people to disagree.

and i never said that the kaiser wouldnt stay above sectarian politics, i said technically they're not in any house anymore. but they probably won't alway recant past loyalties..

Thats technically true. But the way you dropped the comment as an aside when I made my comment led me to believe you were trying to suggest that the Kaiser was always apolitical.

Stuperman

07-09-2007, 17:05

my god, after FH's chancellorship this feels like the game has ground to a halt. And as for the f'inanacail crisis' we are having, IIRC at the end of FH's chancellorship we had a net income north of 45k.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 17:10

Well we do have money for the moment. But, at the rate of expenditure on military units, lack of a clear economic strategy, and the imminent loss of territory, I predict we will hit the red sometime soon unless we change course. Which is fine with me OOC since it will probably be more fun to experience actual danger in game.

gibsonsg91921

07-09-2007, 17:30

hit the red with 45k net income? i dont think so senor.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 17:33

Hopefully I'm wrong. Isn't the first and won't be the last. Its just my best guess based on our current situation combined with factoring in all the expanding some people want to do.

----------------
*edit*

Also, what exactly is a "senor"?

Stuperman

07-09-2007, 18:16

Also, what exactly is a "senor"?

I believe it is spanish for sir, only it's missing some accents.

gibsonsg91921

07-09-2007, 18:27

yeah, it needs a ~ on the n but i didnt feel like doing that. i like to say senor every now and then for mister. big deal lol

StoneCold

07-09-2007, 18:44

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 19:48

I think you should look at the other side of things. You are offering your opinions on the game's mechanics and state that's been agreed by the other players through consensus, and when others go through the trouble of explaining why the game is at its present stage, you say that is being defensive? From what I read, I find that you are the one being defensive about your opinions. It is like only you can defend you opinions and anyone else countering them is defensive.

I never meant that everyone was being defensive. But, I have percieved some of the replies to be defensive and dismissive. As for me bringing up things other have agreed to, how am I to know they agreed to it? I tried to read up as much as possible but there is a limit because alot happens over the PM system. If they do not want new players asking basic questions about things that aren't posted, then they should not accept new players. As for myself being defensive, I have tried not to be. It started with me offering opinions. I perceived some of those opinions to be dismissed out of hand by some on here so I reiterated in order to be clear. Then I tried to rebut point for point where I disagreed with others. I started getting impatient because I felt that I was having to bring up the same points over and over. Its almost as if some people only read the last post you have posted and not the ones before. There are many on here who have disagreed with me but have been quite nice and polite about it. Others have come off combative, defensive, and dismissive.

What OK is saying about bring stuff out into the IC is that those stuff you are bring out here, like indefensible borders and not enough revenue are IC stuff that can be used to develope the IC storyline and your avatar's character even more.

Again these things were never meant to be brought up IC. They were meant to be evidence to support my point. And I have felt that in some cases, telling me to bring things up IC was a way of dismissing what I was saying. Are we even allowed to talk about the game OOC? Do we always have to be IC?

About the Teutonic Crusade, that is another IC/OOC decision to weaken the human players. It was suggested by Stig and undertaken by his avatar, he has no problem leading his avatar deep into Russian territories without possibility of reinforcement or retreat, the rest of the players agreed to let him do it. Strategically, this is probably similar to a blitz, striking the enemies rear to disorient him and force him to be on the defensive, Karkov operation of WW2 ring a bell? Or the fail attempt at the Battle of the Bulge.

Again I have no problem with the Teutonic Crusade. I was simply using it to support my claim that poor strategic moves were being implemented on purpose. Storywise, I think its a great idea. On a pure strategic level, it has the makings to be a real cluster!@#$%.

AussieGiant

07-09-2007, 19:52

Everything is exactly as it appears. There is no man behind the curtain. Ignore the cameras and continue about your business. All is well. http://absolutedreams.net/forums/smiley/ninja.gif

Move along gentlemen, there's nothing to see here...move along now.:book:

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 19:54

Move along gentlemen, there's nothing to see here...move along now.:book:

"These are not the droids your looking for"

AussieGiant

07-09-2007, 19:58

"These are not the droids your looking for"

"Ahh, these are not the droids we are looking for. Move along now."

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 20:01

"Ahh, these are not the droids we are looking for. Move along now."

"You can go about your business"

AussieGiant

07-09-2007, 20:01

So Privateerkev,

I'm going to call you PK from now on if that's ok.

You've certainly generated some discussion since jumping on board, so welcome and well done for getting the boy's to engage you in debate. :balloon2:

I'd certainly get your points into the IC section rather than hammer them out here.

Roleplaying your point would be an excellent move. Saying you don't want too because of character reasons simply means it would be a greater challenge to do so.

AussieGiant

07-09-2007, 20:02

"You can go about your business"

You certainly pass the Star Wars quote test PK good job fella :balloon2:

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 20:04

You certainly pass the Star Wars quote test PK good job fella :balloon2:

Thank you! :beam:

"credits will be fine..."

AussieGiant

07-09-2007, 20:09

I need some help from anyone out there.

I'm not able to see the saves so a map would be really helpful.

I would like to do a story on Arnold and I realised I don't even know where he is.

Is it possible for someone to take a few screenies and post then up?

As Duke I'm not even able to "sound" like I know what's going on, and there's only some much roleplaying I can to do cover that up until I start looking like a moron :beam:

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 21:06

Sorry I can't help with the screenshots because I am at work. I just realized that I never answered your other post so let me take the oppurtunity to do so.

So Privateerkev,

I'm going to call you PK from now on if that's ok.

You've certainly generated some discussion since jumping on board, so welcome and well done for getting the boy's to engage you in debate. :balloon2:

I'd certainly get your points into the IC section rather than hammer them out here.

Roleplaying your point would be an excellent move. Saying you don't want too because of character reasons simply means it would be a greater challenge to do so.

PK is certainly fine with me. I've already started referring to many of you by abreviations. Well, thanks for the kudos. I love healthy serious debate and I don't have class this summer so its been lacking in my life. All because it would be a challenge to argue these points IC doesn't neccessarily mean that I should make my character do it. Here are my reasons:

1.) I do not see how Jan would even know about most of this stuff.

2.) Even if he did know it, I am not sure that he would even care. For now Jan is quite content to be wandering around the Holy Land doing what he thinks is God's work.

3.) I try not to "metagame". In case anyone doesn't know, metagaming is taking OCC knowledge and applying it IC. If you PM'd me OCC and said you were thinking about trying to impeach the chancellor, it would be wrong of me to IC PM the chancellor and warn him. While a certain amount of metagaming is inevitable, I try to keep mine to a minimum.

4.) I'm still new at this and am trying to feel my way around before I get into the rough and tumble world of the Diet. While I feel quite confident debating OCC on here, I want to get the lay of the land before I debate IC.

5.) IC I need to keep in mind what my father, duke, King, and Kaiser want. It would be politically unwise to start a massive debate IC before I knew where others stood on these issues IC. This goes even more for me since I am new and should develop my character and prove myself before throwing rocks at the hornet nest.

6.) I was only trying to hammer them out here so I could get a better grasp of the game mechanics OCC. Noone told me that we were throwing the game on purpose so I had to find out the hard way. Now that I know, I can better participate. I see no reason at the moment to have Jan hammer these same points out in the Diet.

*edited grammer*

Stig

07-09-2007, 21:08

On a pure strategic level, it has the makings to be a real cluster!@#$%.
Yeah so? It's just a game, sides it will stop the Russians and it will be great fun to see if Ansehelm survives.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 21:12

Yeah so? It's just a game, sides it will stop the Russians and it will be great fun to see if Ansehelm survives.

I know its just a game. I never said not to do it. I am not sure how many times I have to say that. I think it will make a fine story and I wish you luck. Whether it will stop the Russians is doubtful in my opinion.

Stig

07-09-2007, 21:18

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 21:23

Why won't it stop the Russians? The goal is to destroy every Russian it meets. There's only one rout into Russia, so it will destroy every army (or die doing so). And the Russians barracks are located all the way back in Bulgar, so it will meet every army heading for Thorn.

I am not confident that you can make it all the way there and back with the forces you will have. And even if you could, I am not sure if the Reich could spare those forces without making itself weaker elsewhere. Like I said, good luck and I look forward to reading the battle report/storyline thread. No matter what, it should be exciting. :beam:

TinCow

07-09-2007, 21:25

Why won't it stop the Russians?

I can think of a few blokes who asked the exact same question.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/history/explorers_history/Napoleon_Bonapartes_portrait.jpghttp://www.evilscale.com/evilscale/images/hitler.jpg

Stig

07-09-2007, 21:28

I can think of a few blokes who asked the exact same question.
:laugh4:
But they had the winter against them, I won't

@PK, the army will be reinforced by mercenaries, against an AI that will easely do as it doesn't use the tactic a player will use.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 21:36

TinCow: And those two didn't invade Russia until they had all/most of Continental Europe conquered. :laugh4: The Eastern Front is by far more interesting to study in WW2 history than anything the US did in my opinion.

:laugh4:
But they had the winter against them, I won't

@PK, the army will be reinforced by mercenaries, against an AI that will easely do as it doesn't use the tactic a player will use.

Well I've seen the AI use mercs too so I'd hesitate before relying on that. Plus they drain the piggybank extra fast so I try to use em sparingly. Unless they are really really cool like Panzerfaunts! :beam:

AussieGiant

07-09-2007, 21:47

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 21:54

Stig's going on a suicide mission for the Reich PK :balloon2:

He's going to have a great time doing it and go down in a blaze of glory in the end more than likely.

Good luck to him I say and more importantly most of the players here are going to remember it and talk about it long after he's gone.

Just like Ituralde's-Leopold, Econ's-Henry, GH's-Heinrich, Igno's-Sigimund, Kag's-Dietrich, TC's-Mandorf and OK's-Otto.

And I remember them because they roleplayed their characters and did great things. If there's a game where you can live by doing great things and not by playing by the "Numbers", then this is it.

As I mentioned before and this is for everyone;

If you have great idea's and grand roleplaying plans then do them, the game provides the framework for it and that's the whole point for me.

Just make sure your plans don't involve ending the game as soon as possible or the the framework is suddenly gone :yes:

Yeah I figured it was a suicide mission. It will be sad to see the character go but if thats what the player wants to do then he should just have as much fun as possible doing it. I too agree that this game provides the framework to do awesome things. And I also don't want the game to end by playing it more by the numbers. I think what happend was I kept stating things that were very obvious to everyone else but very new to me. Lots of confusion all around. Seems to be straightening itself out now though. :D

Stig

07-09-2007, 21:56

Well I've seen the AI use mercs too so I'd hesitate before relying on that. Plus they drain the piggybank extra fast so I try to use em sparingly. Unless they are really really cool like Panzerfaunts!
Well yeah, maybe the AI uses them, but the AI doesn't use proper tactics. I will let the AI attack me, let him come to me, use tactics against them.
With a bit of luck Ansehelm will make it to Moscow, if not I will always have the option of retreating him unless he gets past Novgorod.

Believe me I won't let the AI beat me that easely

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 22:01

Well yeah, maybe the AI uses them, but the AI doesn't use proper tactics. I will let the AI attack me, let him come to me, use tactics against them.
With a bit of luck Ansehelm will make it to Moscow, if not I will always have the option of retreating him unless he gets past Novgorod.

Believe me I won't let the AI beat me that easely

Well thats certainly true. The AI cant fight its way out of a wet paperbag. And I never thought Ansehelm would die easy. It just seems like he's a cool character and would be a shame to lose him so soon.

Stig

07-09-2007, 22:05

Heh, I've played one proper SP campaign myself (I get bored quickly, hence why I play MP, there you don't have the bad diplomacy). In it I had a crusade army which arrived to late, and me being excommunicated directly after it (I forgot to unblockade a port, bastardy pope) had to send it back 12 turns through hostile land. And it came back, yes I admit, only the general did survive, but he came back. ~D

Ituralde

07-09-2007, 22:37

Stig

07-09-2007, 22:51

The only greater sheme I am aware of at the moment would be TinCows secre society, or rather Lothar von Steffens involvement with it.
Heh, my bet is on it that that's the one that stopped Ansehelm from going to Russia ~D
It does make it more interesting tho, and frustrating.

econ21

07-09-2007, 23:15

my god, after FH's chancellorship this feels like the game has ground to a halt.

And while all this discussion may be entertaining, I believe this Chancellorship is lasting quite long. I know Warluster, that you are currently a little busy in Real Life, but still a little speeding up would be much appreciated.

Warluster, any chance of posting a new save - i.e. playing out 1246 and pressing end turn? Stig posted his save about 35 hours ago - we are aiming for some progress within every 2 days as a minimum.

Privateerkev

07-09-2007, 23:18

Well, well, seems like much has been going on here. I finally worked my way through all of your posts and I must say we seem to be getting quite bored to start an argument about some OOC issues, that really aren't there to begin with.

I understand privateerkev and that his initial observation regarding our current strategic status. We are in a precarious situation, and would I have played, or probably anyone else here, the entire game, it would indeed look quie different. But as econ21 mentioned this is the goal of a PBM, to come in contact with different play styles and see the result.

Where I believe you are wrong though privateerkev is your assumption that in fact one person, or an elite group of person, has actually planned the current development via backroom deals. What you see now, is the result of several random factors and people's personal interests.

Of course there have always been backroom deals but so far they have all ben rather obvious and all the measurements that have led to our current situation have been reached to open plan discussion in this OOC thread. The only greater sheme I am aware of at the moment would be TinCows secre society, or rather Lothar von Steffens involvement with it. It's a rather new thing, I think, and I have decided not to delve to deeply in it, lest it ruin some surprises later on.

So, my take on the subject seems that you are taking some of the things a tad too seriously, and I hope I could clarify some things through my post, instead of just igniting an old debate.

If I have not added anything new to the discussion, I apologize and if there has been some grand OOC conspiracy going on from the beginning, well then shame on me for not noticing it.

And while all this discussion may be entertaining, I believe this Chancellorship is lasting quite long. I know Warluster, that you are currently a little busy in Real Life, but still a little speeding up would be much appreciated.

Cheers!

Ituralde

No problem. What you've said is jiving with alot of what I have been hearing all day. And that is: A general consensus to make the game harder so it goes on longer and is more fun, a democratic structure that makes it difficult and unwieldy for a cohesive strategy, some people's attempts to add spice or whatever to the game by using their power to upset the apple cart, and everyone assumes that everyone else already knew all of this. The only problem was that I did not know it and operated under the assumption that not everyone else knew it too. Everyone else thought I knew it so I can see how my posts would seem extraneous and off topic. I can only imagine what it was like to see my later posts as it seemed like I was beating points home over and over again. But I was only doing that because I thought some people were not actually reading all of what I was posting. I am coming to the conclusion that the game result we have now is a hybrid of all of the factors discussed. Since I have never disagreed with the actual game result or the mechanics we have chosen, I was taken aback at some people's reactions. I simply was trying to understand what was happening. You guys don't exactly have a "new players" handbook hanging around. There's alot of threads and posts but not everything is in those. There is exactly one reference I could find in the rules to making the game harder and that had to do with giving other factions money. If I was taking anything too seriously it was because it gets frustrating to keep hearing people say your wrong only to eventually hear people grudgingly admit that your kinda right. So, hopefully we have all gotten a slightly deeper understanding of how things work around here. I know I've learned alot. So, if I haven't alienated all of you with my long opinionated encyclopedic posts, then game on! :2thumbsup:

Warluster

07-10-2007, 06:43

I was trying to do the Report before the save came up, will upload it soon, maybe do a dual report.

econ21

07-10-2007, 11:23

I was trying to do the Report before the save came up, will upload it soon, maybe do a dual report.

If you have scarce time and it is a choice between reporting and playing, I'd prioritise playing. The savegame can speak for itself to a degree and you will have time to write while waiting for people to fight their battles.

AussieGiant

07-10-2007, 20:02

So...anything going on of any interest here? :book:

Warluster would you like a series of instructions for Arnold and the AHA around Budapest?

Vienna is still red faced even though all Austrian holdings should be yellow or green.

I'm just thinking out loud here.

econ21

07-10-2007, 23:33

I just noticed that the start of 1248 savegame was uploaded this morning:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/1248-1.zip

Warluster has not provided instructions, but Thorn is besieged and Arnold is besieging Budapest. I suggest Stig and Ituralde should play out those battles if they want to.

Warluster

07-11-2007, 07:36

Thanks econ.

Yes, the save is uploaded. I haven't had a good look yet.

Will do a dual report.

If you haven't guessed already, its harder then I expected :P

Stig

07-11-2007, 10:11

Think I will fight some time to day, depending on what the Polish army (I take it they are Polish) is made off. If they are too strong to sally out against I prefer to fight them in the streets and on the citadel.

Warluster

07-11-2007, 10:26

There strong, very strong. Theres a strong Russian one aswell.

Stig

07-11-2007, 12:04

Ok, won, and OOC I urge you to do the following things:
-Move the Imperial Army towards Thorn, the Russians won't be able to siege it next turn, but Thorn is in need of help (same as I asked IC).
-If Kage agrees let Jonas take command of the Crusade army (what it is now) and move it towards Thorn.
-Take some the cav from Breslau, and move it towards Thorn.

Here's the screen:
https://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d121/the_Stig_/Forumite%20Battle%20Result/thorn5.jpg

Will write some nice report tonight, haven't taken screens, the battle took too much time.

And I want to say this:
POLISH NOBLES ARE BLOODY IRRITATING

Stig

07-11-2007, 12:15

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1248-2.rar
The save

Also I intend to let the next army that besieges Thorn attack the city.
That should give time to move in some sort of reinforcement army.

I'll propose all of the things I've said here in the Diet IC some time, but don't have the time for that now.

Dutch_guy

07-11-2007, 12:15

POLISH NOBLES ARE BLOODY IRRITATING

Yeah, I've been saying that much since the first time i had to face them. Definitely my most feared enemy unit, and my main reason I hate to face them in open battle.

:balloon2:

Stig

07-11-2007, 12:18

Yeah, I've been saying as such since the first time i had to face them. Definitely my most feared enemy unit, and my main reason I hate to face them in open battle.

:balloon2:
I just defeated like 9-10 groups of them in open battle, and will never do it again, I know that. It might have been better to let them attack Thorn.
The AI tends to use their artillery first till it's out of ammo, so it would be easy to defend the citadel, sides the nobles wouldn't be able to move in the city.

But I decided to fight on the open field because the many knights we had ourselves.

StoneCold

07-11-2007, 12:22

Stig

07-11-2007, 12:26

Can't you guys build some forts near the bridges and just station a unit of cheap troops to stall for time while Thorn recruits more units instead of letting Thorn besiege and loose the ability to recruit? I am gathering that's what is depleting the troops in Thorn right?
Good idea.

Warluster, can you have one of the faction members in Thorn build a fort more or less in front of it (so it needs to be besieged) and retreat him to Thorn.
The mercs can take control of the fort. It should give us another turn or 2.

Edit: Stig, looks like you lost most of them in the battle
Yup, I had to use the cav to run down the Nobles and drive them into the archers and infantry.

Dutch_guy

07-11-2007, 12:26

I just defeated like 9-10 groups of them in open battle, and will never do it again, I know that. It might have been better to let them attack Thorn.
The AI tends to use their artillery first till it's out of ammo, so it would be easy to defend the citadel, sides the nobles wouldn't be able to move in the city.

But I decided to fight on the open field because the many knights we had ourselves.

yeah, that was my main thought also. I didn't expect my cavalry to get the losses they did when attacking though, as our heavy knights are just too slow and our light cavalry too weak.

The best thing would be to just have your crusade sack and destroy some nearby polish cities as well, and destroying those polish noble producing buildings along the way :wink:

:balloon2:

FactionHeir

07-11-2007, 13:12

I'm surprised you had troubles fighting them in a sally, since the AI tends to be to docile during those and just sit around.
Also, shouldn't gibson have been fighting the battle?

StoneCold

07-11-2007, 14:06

FH, I thought during Han's reign as the chancellor, he was supposed to secure the border with a series of forts? You never build any of them?

Stig

07-11-2007, 14:40

Also, shouldn't gibson have been fighting the battle?
Nope, Gibson, DG or me could have been fighting it ... it was just that Peter had the highest command.

BTW I checked we can't build a fort outside Thorn, so we need to get some armies to Thorn to reinforce it.

Stuperman

07-11-2007, 14:44

any news on the milanese front?

AussieGiant

07-11-2007, 15:25

Was the AHA combined with the ejected garrison of Budpaest?

If not then can you please do that Warluster.

I'd like us to take out the Hungarian's, then the Poles and then attack Budapest.

Ituralde can you get ready to do that?

Cheers
AG

StoneCold

07-11-2007, 15:33

Stig, not even at the bridge to the east of Thorn? Or are those too far off for a noble to reach and return to Thorn?

gibsonsg91921

07-11-2007, 16:24

yeah... idthink i could have won against 10 polish nobles in the open field sallying out with that army..

TinCow

07-11-2007, 16:28

Nope, Gibson, DG or me could have been fighting it ... it was just that Peter had the highest command.

Err... isn't the highest command the actual way we determine who is fighting the battle? The only reason people should be fighting battles when their avatar is not the commander is if the actual commander is out of action for RL reasons and has specifically asked that someone else fight it for him. If you don't like the fact that Peter has a higher command, you should be dealing with that IC, not just ignoring it and playing gibson's avatar for him.

FactionHeir

07-11-2007, 16:39

StoneCold: I did build one near Bran, but the Hungarians started the siege. Wanted to build one outside Thorn too at the border, but the Russians kept us busy every turn and I didn't quite want to let Ansehelm get stuck out there alone.

gibsonsg91921

07-11-2007, 16:53

stig is the same command, last time i checked so it just arbitrarily picks peter. i probably wouldnt have had time yesterday to fight it - i was pretty busy

Privateerkev

07-11-2007, 17:10

stig is the same command, last time i checked so it just arbitrarily picks peter. i probably wouldnt have had time yesterday to fight it - i was pretty busy

Is it truly arbitrary? Or, if two generals have the same command, does the game go by some other factor to break the tie? Like purity of bloodline, age, ect... Didn't MTW have something where it figured out which unit was more "knightly" if the stack was just captains when it figured out who was in charge? If its truly arbitrary, then there is not much we can do to predict it other than have someone sally out to check who the general is but not save it. If it is not arbitrary, then we just have to figure out what the tie-breaking factor is and then with each instance of same command, figure it out by looking at the family tree and character stats.

*edited for grammar*

Ituralde

07-11-2007, 17:28

So, I guess it's okay then, that I take the save, do as many of the battles that AussieGiant has proposed and start the siege of Budapest.

Gonna put up the next savegame then.

AussieGiant

07-11-2007, 17:34

So, I guess it's okay then, that I take the save, do as many of the battles that AussieGiant has proposed and start the siege of Budapest.

Gonna put up the next savegame then.

You go to it Ituralde!!, kill em all!!!

After this though I think we are going to need to have Ragusa pump out some troops for restocking!! Plus the reduced units sent there for retraining.

Sofia is about to be handed back to the Byzantine's so Han's could cover for the AHA while we refit.

Stig

07-11-2007, 17:45

Err... isn't the highest command the actual way we determine who is fighting the battle? The only reason people should be fighting battles when their avatar is not the commander is if the actual commander is out of action for RL reasons and has specifically asked that someone else fight it for him. If you don't like the fact that Peter has a higher command, you should be dealing with that IC, not just ignoring it and playing gibson's avatar for him.
Peter and Ansehelm have the same command, but Ansehelm is better in attacking walls, while Peter is better at this.
Sides we did the same before during FH's chancellorship, so why would it be a problem now.

And I certainly don't like your tone, I was said to fight the battle, I did, so don't you @$#&! blame me.

FactionHeir

07-11-2007, 17:51

The commander of a garrison/army is determined by the general in the stack with the highest command stars. However, this only updates post battle and each time a general joins/leaves an army, but not between turns, when generals can gain/lose traits that give stars. In garrisons on the other hand, it does update then too.

Now, the peculiarity is, that the general shown with the gold star in an army/garrison always commands the battle, even if at the pre-battle screen, he is actually the worse general (i.e. after modifications for attack/defense). So when looking at a situation, the gold star tells all.

TinCow

07-11-2007, 18:09

Peter and Ansehelm have the same command, but Ansehelm is better in attacking walls, while Peter is better at this.
Sides we did the same before during FH's chancellorship, so why would it be a problem now.

Because that's the rule.

1.3 Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved.

Just because the person playing Chancellor lists the wrong commander for the battle doesn't make it any more valid. If gibson wants you to fight his battles for him, then that's fine, but that wasn't posted anywhere at the time.

And I certainly don't like your tone, I was said to fight the battle, I did, so don't you @$#&! blame me.

There's no need to make this personal. :no:

Ituralde

07-11-2007, 19:25

Don't know if I'll manage to fight the battle this evening, something's come up and my time has gotten scarce. I will definitely be able to fight the battle tomorrow though. If you want to play ahead, feel free to do so, the battle can well be delayed one turn.

Cheers!

Ituralde

AussieGiant

07-11-2007, 19:54

Stig

07-11-2007, 19:54

Players whose avatars lead in a battle
that's plural

Privateerkev

07-11-2007, 19:57

that's plural

I'm assuming its plural because it is to apply to everyone. If plural subjects are discussed, then it make sense that each subject's object becomes plural objects as well. Its like saying, "the PBM players drank their sodas." Now, were all assuming each of us only has one soda. But, its discussing plural subjects so there are also plural objects. This is just my take because I am definately not an English major. If someone else knows more then please speak up and let us know.

*edit*

upon further reflection, that might be bad grammar to have both subject and object as plural. when I get home, I can check one of my grammar cheat sheets.

AussieGiant

07-11-2007, 20:32

For Christ sake guy's, can we dispense with the pissing competitions!!

...and yes that's plural!!!

Privateerkev

07-11-2007, 20:35

For Christ sake guy's, can we dispense with the pissing competitions!!

...and yes that's plural!!!

I thought I was being quite polite. I really don't know if a double plural is correct grammar. All because I write lengthy historiographical essays, doesn't mean I automatically know good grammar. I rely on MS Word far too much.

:D

*edited for grammar....oh the irony....*

TinCow

07-11-2007, 20:47

My point is that since Peter commanded, any trait changes resulting from the battle get applied to Peter, not Ansehelm. If the battle is lost, it's Peter's fault. If the prisoners are executed, it's Peter's fault. This is a pretty understanding crowd here and we are pretty generous about bending the rules to ensure that the game flows well, but I just want to make sure that at a minimum players are consulted before things like this are done with their avatars. My request is simply that in a similar situation in the future, the player who's avatar is actually in command of the army gives his approval before the battle is fought in his name.

Stig

07-11-2007, 21:03

AussieGiant

07-11-2007, 21:35

Keep in mind guy's that there are threshold VnV rating occurring in the back ground that are not seen in stat changes necessarily.

FH can confirm this 100%.

The only way to do this is to have the stronger general come in as reinforcements and not be in the main stack. Otherwise you are affecting threshold VnV milestones for the wrong character.

StoneCold

07-11-2007, 21:42

AussieGiant

07-11-2007, 21:47

gibsonsg91921

07-11-2007, 23:42

ive let stiggy play the battles that we're both in and im busy - this is a resolved matter dudes.

econ21

07-12-2007, 01:04

Basically, my POV is that Stig saw Econ's post saying the battles are up for him and Iturade to fight, so he fought it, with the assumption that Econ knows the situation with Thorn's avatars, maybe gibsonsg already gave him a go ahead in PM, etc... I don't think he did that deliberately and also after the event, gibsonsg gives his ok too, so can we just leave it as that?

Yes, sorry for the confusion everyone - I may have been premature asking Stig to fight, but I am very keen to get this PBM moving along. A few days ago, we had the same situation and gibson was busy, but Stig was not. I assumed the same would apply here and did not want to another timeout to confirm it.

Warluster can now either reclaim Stig's save (and give Ituralde his battle a bit later, but still this turn) or he can wait a day for Ituralde to storm Budapest.

Privateerkev

07-12-2007, 05:45

that's plural

Upon further reading, I think Stig is right. I'm only bringing this up because it regards the wording of the rules. The rule in question should read, "The player whose avatar leads in a battle will be expected to fight that battle." Instead of how it reads now, "Players whose avatars lead in a battle will be expected to fight that battle." Maybe the rule wording will lead to further confusion down the road like it did with Stig. Well, I'm assuming the wording confused him since he brought it up in the first place. If this didn't confuse him, and only me, then never mind.

Move along...
Nothing to see here but my madness manifested in text form...

~:wacko:

*edited for various reasons that may or may not have to do with rubber field mice and scissors*

econ21

07-12-2007, 08:24

For what it's worth, I did not mean that sentence "Players whose avatars lead in battle..." to refer to the player with the most command stars. If you notice, the point is very early in the rules and I think it was merely to establish the WotS general principle that battles are delegated to players with generals on the ground rather than being all fought by the Chancellor. If I had intended the rule to solve the issue of who is in command and refer to command stars, I would have mentioned command stars.

Who fights the battle was supposed to have been solved in Section 6 by the "army commander" mechanic - ie appointment by the Chancellor. Army commanders were supposed to be to armies what Counts are to settlements - ie there would be a clear list of who is in charge of what formation - but that mechanic was not very watertight and its implementation has slipped by the way side with the amendment to influence rules (which stripped army commanders of a bonus).

That the player of the general who the computer thinks is commanding the battle (highest command stars) actually fight it makes sense for the reason Tincow gave - that general will get any traits arising. But I would not be dogmatic on that, especially if player generals are to be stacked together for a long time, as with the first unofficial crusade and as may happen with the crusade on Moscow. In such cases, it seems better to alternate or otherwise share command so that one player does not monopolise things. However, where possible it would be good to try to manipulate things to temporarily get rid of the higher command general to avoid the problem of them getting the traits that another player has earned. But I don't think that is possible when the army is besieged.

FactionHeir

07-12-2007, 10:45

Yep, not possible for sallies unless you use move_character, which probably isn't the most elegant solution.

Ituralde

07-12-2007, 13:56

Alright, I'm gonna pick up the save right now and will return it to you in about an hour. Since Warluster has not posted here, I'm assuming that's alright.

Stuperman

07-12-2007, 14:08

Are the spanish still sieging Sardinia?

Ituralde

07-12-2007, 15:04

They sure do, stuperman.

I killed off the Hungarians, slaughtering their prisoners and then returned to siege Budapest, since I found Arnold did not have enough movement points to push the attack on the Poles.

Here's the save:
kotr1148-3 (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1248-3.rar)

econ21

07-12-2007, 15:11

Good work, Ituralde. :2thumbsup:

It's back to you, Warluster. :bow:

Stuperman

07-12-2007, 15:42

They sure do, stuperman.

Damn Spaniards (sp)

AussieGiant

07-12-2007, 19:08

Warluster

07-12-2007, 22:47

Right, shall pick up the save and end turn thi afternoon.

StoneCold

07-12-2007, 23:12

Btw, we should be able to call a crusade soon right? And who did the princess marry?

Warluster

07-13-2007, 06:38

Lyse married no one yet.

Northnovas

07-13-2007, 13:07

I see we have progressed to 1248. Any chance of even a brief Chancellor report?

Stig

07-13-2007, 14:49

Actually Warluster said he would end turn 1248, so we should be in 1250 now

AussieGiant

07-13-2007, 19:08

It's nearly time to hand over Sofia :laugh4:

Do we hand it over before the end of the turn or after it?

Warluster you're going to have to get a diplomat near a Byzantine character now to do this.

gibsonsg91921

07-14-2007, 01:35

dang... we could have used some a those foos in thorn.

econ21

07-14-2007, 18:00

Warluster, it's over 48 hours since Ituralde uploaded his save. Did you end the turn? If so, please upload the new save - ideally with instructions for any battles to be fought.

TinCow

07-15-2007, 04:48

:wall:

FactionHeir

07-15-2007, 07:24

As in the PM I sent Warluster, I think its a bad idea to have Hans wait for Matthias before embarking. By the time Matthias reaches Sofia, it will be 1258, and 1260 by the time they can actually move further. Hans can reach Outremer by 1260 on his own.

Warluster

07-15-2007, 10:55

Sorry all. Had buisness, etc.

PM coming your way econ.

econ21

07-15-2007, 13:50

OK, thanks for the PM, Warluster.

Warluster is too busy with studies and work to finish his reign as Chancellor. I've opened an Emergency Session of the Diet to elect his replacement. I think we've had rather too much talk relative to in-game action since Factionheir's term ended, so I propose we elect a replacement Chancellor in the same way as we agreed for impeached Chancellors ie one who will finish the Chancellor's term and follow through existing Edicts.

We will have a full Diet session and new Chancellor election in 1260, although there is no reason why the replacement one we elect now could not stand again.

Ituralde

07-15-2007, 14:16

I was afraid of that, but hopefully we can now pick up the pace a little and get things moving! :2thumbsup:

TinCow

07-15-2007, 15:04

Is Ulrich Hummel dead yet?

gibsonsg91921

07-15-2007, 15:11

I hope we get a Chancellor who can get the game going again... I want to fight battles! Battles within my skill level, at least.

OverKnight

07-15-2007, 15:38

Is Ulrich Hummel dead yet?

Nope, looking at 1148-3, the latest save available, he's alone on the eastern border of Aleppo. Looks like he's on his way to a death ride though against some Egyptians.

Zombie!

Edit: A summary of the legislation, but I hope we won't need it.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1609942&postcount=10

FactionHeir

07-15-2007, 17:31

Ugh, I wonder how many chancellors we'll end up having for this term!
You guys really shoulda voted for Fredericus or myself during the last full session :grin:

AussieGiant

07-15-2007, 18:13

Ugh, I wonder how many chancellors we'll end up having for this term!
You guys really shoulda voted for Fredericus or myself during the last full session :grin:

The problem with that is your too good FH:balloon2:

econ21

07-15-2007, 18:34

You guys really shoulda voted for Fredericus or myself during the last full session :grin:

:inquisitive: And you really shoulda voted for yourself at the last full session. (Then Fredericus could have won...). :laugh4:

gibsonsg91921

07-15-2007, 19:10

u shouldnt have voted for hummel FH lol.

Comrade Franconia is always right!

AussieGiant

07-15-2007, 19:26

I'm looking forward to some entertaining reports from you Econ...if you get in of course.

:beam:

econ21

07-15-2007, 20:47

I've talked to FLYdude and he is interested in running for Chancellor, so I have withdrawn Elberhard's candidacy. Fredericus von Hamburg is a little old at 57 and so to avoid the risk of having another interrupted Chancellorship, Elberhard is running as Co-Chancellor on his ticket. This means if Fredericus dies before 1260, Elberhard will finish off his term.

AussieGiant

07-15-2007, 21:08

Good idea.

Of course Arnold's gone a little batty with the idea though :laugh4:

FactionHeir

07-16-2007, 05:30

:inquisitive: And you really shoulda voted for yourself at the last full session. (Then Fredericus could have won...). :laugh4:

After the debates going on, it seemed that backroomers had decided on Fredericus or Hümmel. Considering Swabian backroom talk, I felt compelled to vote for Hümmel, even though I was very much considering to break ranks and vote Fredericus.

FactionHeir

07-16-2007, 06:30

That should really be the last update before the next M2TW patch comes out:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/KOTRfix126.zip

This time in .zip format due to popular request.
Please make sure you upgrade and use it (at the very least) while you play in the PBM. Not looking at certain people here :wink2:

econ21

07-16-2007, 12:12

I'll be temporarily away when the Emergency Diet deadline expires (2pm UK time today). It looks like FLYdude will be elected Chancellor unopposed. I'll organise a poll a little later if that is not the case.

gibsonsg91921

07-16-2007, 15:43

where has FLYdude been? is he gonna be able to be chancellor?

Privateerkev

07-16-2007, 15:49

where has FLYdude been? is he gonna be able to be chancellor?

no, were going to call a fourth emergency diet session in a couple days...

j/k

:beam: