Debate - How do you minimize casualties when assaulting? [Archive]

Askthepizzaguy

07-18-2007, 09:11

I have a tactic that works (occasionally)

I assault the gate with the battering ram and make a feint toward the walls with seige towers/ladders. This forces the AI to keep their units on the walls to defend them. Then, when the gate is down, I drop all seige equipment and make a break for the city center.

Having lots of Generals or melee cavalry will help pull this off.

Bum rush the city center, and take care of the two or three units that might be there. Then, let the timer wind down as the idiots on the walls attempt to retake their own city. They will lose morale very quickly this way, and will probably rout, especially if you throw some archers of your own on top of the very walls they just withdrew from and fire some flaming arrows into the mix.

Use heavy infantry to guard your rear as you make your way to the city center, and use heavy spearmen to take out any mounted fools in the city center. Archers and weak infantry should stay away from the fighting. At the most, they can be used to surround the enemy at the town center during the final push, and attack them from behind.

You can usually take out an entire full garrison using this method with minimal casualties.

Doesn't work for fortresses or citadels. Tough luck on those. This is of course, the tactic to use if you have no catapults. If you have those... what are you waiting for? Rain death upon them.

crpcarrot

07-18-2007, 09:57

1:1 casualties when assaulting are too good, one of the reasons i think assoulting is too easy in M2

to answer your question
use artilerry to bring down towers and walls
use ranged units
dont fight on walls or in the square (H2H)
stay out of range of enemy fire

Galapagos

07-18-2007, 11:15

Well just take your time when assaulting and think any move you do.Use pause button often and be aware at all enemy troops.Use artillery and missile troops and you should be fine.But 1:1 casualties isn't so bad.

icek

07-18-2007, 11:30

spies,put one or two so they can open gates for you. artillery, find a place in walls far from gate and make a hole and destroy two towers beside your entry hole. if you have long range missile units use them on enemy that guard the entry hole. when you enter into city walls and have large army stop, wait and see if enemy forces are going into you. try to eliminate them one by one.

sapi

07-18-2007, 12:11

Doesn't work for fortresses or citadels. Tough luck on those. This is of course, the tactic to use if you have no catapults. If you have those... what are you waiting for? Rain death upon them.If you have those, well, repeat as above, but without the ram to tip them off that the gate will collapse until it's too late ~:)

Just sprint for the gate with all siege units aimed at it from the beginning, and get through before they can react and pull men off the walls...

Didz

07-18-2007, 12:23

What are your tips for reducing your own casualties when assaulting castles and cities?
I avoid situations where casualties are likely to be high, and try instead to force the defenders into situations where they have to incur those casualties instead.

That obviously sounds a bit glib and obvious, so I thought I would list a few of the things I try and do to bring this situation about.

1) I avoid attacking choke points. e.g. through gates, breeches, streets etc.

Getting into a defended city is the first challenge, and you can either go at it bald-headed or using a bit of guile. I normally go over the walls, even if the gates are open, rather than try and barge my way in through a gate or breech. However, when going over the walls, remember that seige towers and ladders are by definition choke points in their own right, so either use them en-masse against a defended section of wall, or ideally try to use them against underdefended sections. Frequently, the defenders are unable to man all their defences and so an element of deception can frequently cause them to leave a vital spot unguarded long enough to get troops over the wall. If your really lucky this then causes the defenders to redeploy and actually leave other area's unguarded.

2) Use the walls to your advantage.

Once you have a wall under your control the next priority is to make it work against the defenders. The best way to do this is to rush your archers and missile units onto it as quickly as possible (remember to inhibit skirmish mode). Massing your missile troops on the enemies walls enables you to inflict heavy casualties on defending troops (particularly cavalry) trying to deploy through the streets below or defend other sections of wall. Just be careful not to waste too much ammunition firing at masked targets hidden behind buildings etc.

3) Capture the Gates.

Capture the gates by attacking along the wall, not through the gate, or along the street. And if possible capture more than one gate. The advantage of holding more than one gate is that it gives you multiple access options to the city, which means that you can distract the defenders at one gate whilst you rush the city centre via the other. Always watch the defenders deployment and keep an eye open for an opportunity to rush the city centre.

4) Don't let them regroup.

Having secured the walls, and captured the gates the garrison will usually try to re-group in the city centre. Do everything you can to stop them. This is the moment to block streets with spearmen and heavy infantry so that the garrison is forced to fight its way to the city centre. The most likely result are a series of routs which enable garrison units to be slaughtered on their way to the rally point. Just watch your own back whilst your doing this and avoid getting sandwiched between enemy units.

5) Give them nothing but bad options.

With the walls secured, the gates open and the surviving garrison now cowering in the city centre the next stage is to force them to do the very thing they don't want to do. Which is to attack you.

There are various way to do this but the best method is to use a blocking force of spearmen or heavy infantry backed up by missile troops. Very often in the beginning the garrison is quite willing to attack any infantry force which deploys in the street. So placing a spear unit across the street on 'Hold Formation' will often result in the garrison launching an attack along the street which can be heavily punished by your missile troops on the walls. Let them keep doing this as long as they like as every man you kill is one less to deal with later.

Once the garrison tire of this, its time to up the anti. Begin moving the spear unit forward in small jumps along the street backed up but missile troops behind them until the garrison once more feels compelled to attack. Rinse and repeat until you reach the city centre.

If the garrison refuses to attack your spearmen, then you can force them too simply by moving the missile unit through the spearmen and engaging the defenders directly with missile fire. This will usually trigger the 'Attack Missile Unit' do something trigger which forces the enemy to charge the missile unit. As soon as you see this trigger take effect withdraw your missile troops through the spear unit so that the charging enemy hit them and not their target. Again rinse and repeat.

6) Meanwhile, infiltration and chaos.

Whilst your infantry and archers are wearing down the garrison by forcing them to attack you down the narrow streets. It might be worth using any missile cavalry you have to infiltrate through the city and spread chaos. Use the waypoint system (SHIFT&CLICK) to move any missile cavalry around the city centre through the backstreets. Put them in Skirmish mode which will keep them out of trouble to a certain extent, but generally avoid any direct contact with the enemy and just try and plot a route for them which will have them arrive at the city centre by one of the other roads to the one you are moving your infantry and missile troops along. At worst this will confuse the AI. However, the most likely result is that the garrison finds itself being shot in the back whilst trying to attack your infantry advance, and if you are really lucky you may find that these horse archers are actually able to capture the city centre because the enemy garrison is busy attacking your infantry.

7) The last stand of Sparta.

Having reached the city centre keep goading the garrison to attack you for as long as you can. Once they finally stop, and can't be persuaded to move anymore, bring up you missile troops and like Xerxes, finish the last of them off with concentrated missile fire.

NOTE: Steps 1-6 must be repeated several times for large fortresses.

ARTILLERY: First priority for artillery is to smash in the gate. However, once that is done concentrate on destroying the towers around your planned point of assault. Personally I don't destroy walls, unless there is a chance that this might kill a lot of the defenders on them, and then I never bother making a breach. The main reason being that I need those walls intact for step 2, and that I never assault breeches anyway.

imnothere

07-18-2007, 14:24

1. waste some money on mercenaries or pilgrims/meat shields

2. promote the captain of the mercenaries to Vanguard General.

3. order the vanguards to directly assault the front(gate).

4. at mean time - 2 flanking elite units assault gates from other sides. (AI shouldnt be able to defend everything)

5. meat shield died to a man, saving you from paying them wages.

6. 1 or more of flanking assault push through. either help clearing the gate or bum-rush the city square.

try to use 2 units of pikes, otherwise spearmen are just as well if you can schiltroned them at choke-points for AI to kill its units with.

if AI units managed to rushed back to city square, dont worry. spearwall or schiltron the choke points and use your archers to rain death. let them come to YOU. mop up the stranglers AI units that failed to get back to the city squares as well.

DO: try auto-resolve if it gives u a less painful win.

DONT: bring your expensive cavalry units.

IF: (willing to sieged and wait for enemy to sally) - if enemy have ALOT of archers - built lots of siege tower that you wont be using to block the sky - place the infantry to defend BEHIND the siege towers.

Ditto with battering rams - if YOU have a lot of archers, this way you still get some headroom for your archers to fire on the enemies.

Both siege towers and battering rams present as an obstacle - the enemies wont get full charge with his cavalry and infantry. Any dread spear-walled units will lose their coherency when passing through the obstacles.

If you feel confident, simply massed your infantry units, rush them up to the city gate, block them and slaughter the units as they ran outside. be warn that you will lose a few to the defending structures.

TeutonicKnight

07-18-2007, 14:31

I take a very measured method of attack. I use seige weaponry to break down the towers on the side I intend to attack. Then I break the gate. If I have enough ammo left after that, I put a hole in the walls, but not right next to the gate. Usually a section or two farther away on either side.

Then I send my heaviest footknights forward with ladders or seige towers to the sections of the wall on either side of the gate. That gets the scrum started, but on top of the walls where the knights can't be trounced by cavalry. Once the enemy archers on the walls are occupied, I move up my own archers (except for a pair for reserve) to shoot through the open gate and breaches at whatever I can hit. Usually by the time my footknights have secured the top of the wall, my archers are close to out of ammo.

Now I move the bulk of my infantry and cavalry into the breaches to break the will of the defenders. I move my knights down off the wall, and move the pair of archers I held in reserve up the ladders/seige tower to the sections next to the gatehouse. There, they can launch flaming arrows into the defender's mob, and really create a panic.

Once the mob has broken, I pursue to near the square, and fight in the streets for as long as they keep coming back. I use more archer fire to motivate them to attack, but eventually I'm either out of arrows, or they are no longer willing to come to me. That's when I park whatever is left with ammo near the square and do a Xerxes.

If anything is left after I'm completely out of arrows, well, I send in whatever is the best counter I've got (usually the remaining footknights), and finish the fight.

I never let the two minute warning interfere with my battles, either. Slaughter them to the last man I say.

Using seige weapons to take down the towers really cuts down on the casualties. Yes, the gates are a good target, but they can be bypassed and taken from within if needed. This is where cannon really shine. Plenty of ammo to do it all - kill all the towers, kill the gates, and kill the walls.

TeutonicKnight

07-18-2007, 14:34

Oh, one other thing. If you are assaulting a fortress or citadel, forget it. The only way to 'minimize casualties' is put seige weapons in your stack and auto-calc.

The defending towers are too numerous to kill, and will wreak havoc on your troops.

Ramses II CP

07-18-2007, 15:50

The obvious answer is auto-calc. :(

If you're following the dread path, use spies extensively, three per conquest will almost certainly get you over 100% chance to pop the gates.

Don't fight in the city square. The enemy has effectively infinite morale standing there, so force him out of there before you engage. A single unit of artillery is usually enough to drive him out, or at least reduce him sufficiently that a good charge will clear most of the remaining troops away.

Attack along multiple angles, as others have described very well.

Don't fight in the gates or choke points, also handled well elsewhere in the thread.

Finally, if you have high quality troops or trust your tactical sense, incite the AI to sally out against you by bringing an apparently inferior force to the siege. You should win 99% of the AI's sallies just by charging him immediately and trapping his men in the gates.

:wall:

Doug-Thompson

07-18-2007, 21:35

Askthepizzaguy

07-18-2007, 21:40

1. Destroy towers with catapults, trebuchets, cannons — whatever's available.

2. If possible, take the walls first and then put your archers on them. Have them climb up the siege towers or ladders after your infantry have cleared away the opposition. Then send melee units through the gate. Anything that fights you there will now get rained upon by your missiles.

3. Use well-armored troops or troops with shields. They don't have to be fancy. Saracen Infantry, Armored Sergeants or Pavaise Spearmen do fine. Just something with a good anti-missile defense. Casualties from garrison fire add up.

4. Have some cavalry handy to chase routed enemy units, taking them before they reach the city center or the next ring of defense. Try to lure enemy units toward your archers too.

5. If you can move infantry archers along the walls until they can get a shot at surviving enemy units, do so.

6. Finally, bury survivors in the city square with arrows. Be sure to send them down side streets until you have close-range fire coming from more than one direction. Nothing thins out a city square like close-range crossfire.

Some minor friendly criticism:

Taking the walls themselves is often where I lose the most troops. You can't hit them with arrows, and if you're trying to take the walls you generally don't have artillery. If you can smash through the gate and charge to the city center you can avoid massive wall-taking casualties.

You are also likely to hit your own troops if they are engaged in melee combat with another unit and you're firing arrows down into the fray.

Forgive me, Master Doug Thompson, for I have spoken out of rank.

Askthepizzaguy

07-18-2007, 21:41

Finally, if you have high quality troops or trust your tactical sense, incite the AI to sally out against you by bringing an apparently inferior force to the siege. You should win 99% of the AI's sallies just by charging him immediately and trapping his men in the gates.

:wall:

That is precisely the method I use. Well done, Ramses II Trojan Magnum Shiek.

Quillan

07-18-2007, 22:10

One thing I tend to do after gunpowder, providing the faction I'm playing can build culverins or basilisk, is to try and destroy troops on the walls. I'll split my artillery into two groups, both shooting at a wall with troops on it. One group targets next to the left tower while the other group targets the wall next to the right tower. If both sections get damaged to the point where they crack, any troops still on the wall are killed. I'll normally do this once or perhaps twice, then breach both damaged sections and destroy the towers. If I can get troops into the city behind them, I try and block their route back to the square. Fighting in the square causes the most casualties of anything other than assaulting the walls directly, so I try to avoid both of these when possible. The last stand fight only happens when I'm completely out of ammo or the clock is ticking down (happens frequently on citadels).

Doug-Thompson

07-18-2007, 22:35

@thepizziaguy

There is no rank. May the best points win the debate. I've never learned anything from somebody who agreed with me.

Askthepizzaguy

07-18-2007, 22:57

@thepizziaguy

There is no rank. May the best points win the debate. I've never learned anything from somebody who agreed with me.

Well said. If only more people shared our philosophy.

uanime5

07-18-2007, 23:53

My method is to place mercenaries and weak units at the front of the siege with battering rams (decoy), while my elite units (archers and heavy infantry) are at the sides with ladders.

I start by sending up a battering ram to capture the enemy's attention and to make them move toward this area (by default the enemy's concentration is heaviest at the place where you start in battle mode). Once the enemy is distracted I send my elite units to the walls with ladders (unless the walls are heavily defended). The advantage of ladders are that units can run while holding them, so they can quickly get to the walls and kill the few units defending them.

While the enemy is concentrating on the ram, I've captured the walls gates. Then I send my elite units towards the enemy's forces and get my archers onto the walls. Since the walls have been taken and their soldiers are under attack the enemy ususally pulls back to the center, allowing me to capture the front gate and bring in my mercenaries and weak units (I never let them break the gate because the enemy would just swarm them).

Now that my mercenaries and weak units are in the castle I use them as targets to make the enemy fight me, while I pelt the enemy with arrows. If the enemy has ranged units I just plow my mercenaries and weak units in the enemy so that they have to fight me. If these units fail (they can do against the general's bodyguard) I just use my heavy infantry to mop up the remaining soldiers.

While I may suffer high casulaties most of these are from low cost units are expensive mercenaries.

khaos83_2000

07-19-2007, 01:56

Assaulting any fortified place is confirmed to have heavy casualties unless the quality of troops is in your favour.
A few points i will like to offer:

1) Take out the towers. The tower inflict the most casualties.

2) Take down as much walls a possible and the defending unit on it if possible.
The advantage of the defenders is that the attackers has little entry points. Doing this will remove their advantage.

3) Have a superior quality troops. This is a no brainer.

4) Have a high dread general.

5) Attack from multiple breaches but overwhelm a single breach. So that they cant reinforce your main attacking breach.

phonicsmonkey

07-19-2007, 04:37

thanks everyone for your suggestions

it seems we have two major strategies emerging:

1) FAST - yo, bumrush the square

2) SLOW - use distraction to thin the defences, take out towers, take and arm the walls with missiles, draw the enemy from the square and use artillery, missiles and streetfighting

either way looks like I have to bring some siege engines or cannons to the party...which means I have to wait for them to get there...yawn

I have been using an idiotic strategy of ignoring towers, fighting at the gate and in the city square, which is probably why I've been taking heavy losses...

one thing is - particularly when taking fortresses and citadels - do you have enough time on the clock for the slow approach? or are you playing with no timer?

imnothere

07-19-2007, 05:14

I should make a thread for "How to make siege more fun!" but i am too lazy.

Key is the artillery - remember AI likes to massed infantry on walls? Let them!

Massed your troops ALL in front in contempt of the enemy (well, not entirely without purpose) so that AI will mass in front gate as well.

With timer off, aim your artillery (guns prefer - its quicker and more destructive, but trebuchets might do in a pinch) at TWO area of the section of the wall for those elite defender units so that the whole section of the wall will collasp at the same time. by the time AI realised it, it will be too late. you only need 2-3 units of guns but you will need 6 units of trebuchets at least to work- trebuchets are not accurate and not fast.

then sit back and laugh when the little tin-men felt off.

repeat with all other walls until AI pull them off. demolish the defending towers at the area that you wanted to attack and perhaps a second breach.

ready your troops. if the AI massed troops near the gate/breach, attack them at their strongest point with your cheap spear troops. but BEFORE you attack, move your artilleries for a clear line-of-sight bombardment- use up all the ammo - you wont need it again. light anti-unit artillery like serpentine, rockets, and balista is ideal. then follow on with your archers (if any).

send your forlorn hope (cheap spearmen) to duel with enemy units/cavalry, AI will throw its best troops - nominally their bodyguard, into the fray. then send in your best elite infantry/other units and hit them from the side.

if possible - do send in your cavalry (if any) or general, SUPPORTED by your other spare troops, and bum-rush to the city square from another angle from second breach. AI at this time will be force to either stay at first breach and lost the city, or else run back to city square and lost. use either infantry to pick on infantry or horses to pick on AI's supporting archers in the square. (becareful of those annoying spearmen on your cavalry)

i was guilty of trying to use my artillery in the city to throw stuff into breach#1. but hey, what do i care about the lost of peasants and some untrustworthy mercenaries? feed the dogs to the...umm...bigger dogs, i'd said. less mouth to feed and more florins to split between troops! :beam:

yes, i have had some bad influences. :2thumbsup:

TeutonicKnight

07-19-2007, 15:51

No timers for me.

An assault is a long drawn out process. I hate being forced into action by an artificial mechanic.

Though it can bite you on the ass sometimes too.

Lamprey

07-19-2007, 16:22

The easiest way to minimize casualties while assaulting is autoresolve.

There are other things you can do, but if you're getting 1:1 ratios when playing the battles as the OP does then you're unlikely to be able to execute any complex strategies.

Von Nanega

07-19-2007, 17:27

Starve 'em for a bit. Then set up for the assault on at least two points of entry. Put major pressure on the most lightly defended area. If you have to, assault the heavier area just to keep it busy. Once you have breach, race to the city center and fight them in the streets because the enemy will be racing to it. This puts you on the "defensive and the enemy has to come through you. Hold that city center and win by the timer if you have to.

Ciaran

07-19-2007, 19:26

Doing a proper siege starts with picking the right army. Sure, your cavalry will rule in the open, but for me, they´re the kind of unit that sits back and watches during sieges, doing nothing but taking up slots in the stack. Heavy infantry (Dismounted Knights of any kind) and missile units are usefull. Siege Artillery can make it a lot easier, but will slow your army down. You can do without it against cities. Against multiple-walled castles, however, I strongly recommend it.
Right after army composition comes Equipment and Deployment. I like to overload the enemy. Lots of siege towers (I prefer them over ladders. True, ladder-carrying units can run, but those men climbing up one ofter the other are horribly vulnerable and will be massacred by even the worst of melee troops. A siege tower disgorges a tight, powerfull bunch of men right into the middle of the defenders on the wall.) deployed over the whole accessible area to draw out the defenders. Rams for all the reachable gates (usually three, since in M2TW your deployment zone is always U-shaped). Build two rams per gate, in case one gets torched. All the equipment you need to build means you´ll be besieging the city for a couple of turns. That´s good, since during the time of a siege the garrison slowly dwindles away. Just make sure to intercept any upcoming relief forces which could spoil your glorious assault.

End deployment, start the battle and hit Pause. Order all units with equipment to the walls or gates. Put into this first wave as much of our heavy infantry as you can (read: all of it) and keep your missiles back, but deployed so they can use the siege towers to move onto the walls. Now it´s just a matter of waiting till your units have eached the walls and climbed the siege towers.
With the walls taken your opponent has two choices: try to repel you from the walls or sit in the city square. No matter what he does, now is the time of the missile units, which should be moved onto the walls. If the enemy tries to repel you, deploy your infantry to protect the ways up to the walls, so your missile units are protected. They´ll cut the defenders to pieces as he comes up. If he huddles in the square, engage him with missiles there, but stay well out of the square itself. If you step into it, all the units there will rush onto your unit that has trepassed the square, and while there, the defender´s units can´t be routed.
So far for cities. Castles are trickier to take, but then, that´s the whole point of building a castle in the first place. The basic concept, though, still applies, heavy infantry and attacks from multiple directions. However, you can´t get siege towers through the gates to attack the second (or third) wall, but you can move them through a breach. That´s why you´ll want to take some siege missile equipment. You can move ladders through a gate, though, as well as rams.
Another thing about castles (at least this was the case in 1.1, I haven´t played really long enough in 1.2 to be 100 % sure) is that its walls are connected. That means you can move your men from the top of the first wall level onto the upper ones at certain points. Again, it might very well be that this isn´t the case in 1.2 anymore, a few custom battles might or not have hinted at that. If you can do it still, you´re lucky, since you don´t have to breach any gates or fight through the narrow street up to the next wall.
Remember to take enough missile units for the castle courtyard (same thing as the city square).

Whoa, that was longer than I intended to be :oops:

Grog

07-19-2007, 21:12

In my english games, I would make heavy infantry armies with 3-4 siege units, and a heavy mix of swordsmen/longbows, general and 1 cav unit or holibar.

With siege I would punch out the gates and towers, then punch two holes in the walls a good 3 wall blocks each side of the gates. Then half my longbows would move up max range , and kill any reorganised units in wall breaches.

Then I would 3 point flood each breach with swords, rest of longbows on full ammo behind them. The weakest defended breach I would charge general and cav thru and split them off into the city/castle streets to harry any lone units, good for killing slow enemy siege 1v1.

Doing this I could often rout defenders units successively back to TC, then push up sword wall and longbows behind to pepper reforming units. I could take a city with consistent 15-20% loss.

With my Byzantines, I just throw 3 spies in and use same turn all horse attacks. 2-3 point charge all gates (ai usually scrambles for TC once spies have been at work), then split all my HA to the 4 winds and skirmish all over the city. I'll then run vards near TC for max range weakening. Once the enemy has been beaten back a bit I mass charge the TC from all points in a coordinated 4 way impact for comedy value, then repeatedly counter charge in TC itself till the enemy is defeated. I can often get sub 10% loss with extensive micromangement.

Guyus Germanicus

07-20-2007, 00:21

phonicsmonkey -

It's interesting that this subject has come up because I, too, complained in another thread (M2TW Guides/Hunters All Their Lives, etc) that I thought I was suffering a high rate of casualties in my assaults on settlements.

I'm an RTW player and the rate of casualties I've experienced in M2TW is significantly higher than what I'm used to. Some of it I've chalked up to inexperience, and some to the fact that the units in M2TW move more slowly and ponderously in the combat phase than they do in RTW. Cavalry in M2TW seems to move and respond to commands at a snail's pace by comparison.

From my reading in the Guild I understand that CA has given settlement wall defenders in M2TW an edge that they didn't enjoy in RTW. But, even when I have stormed inside the gates of settlements or through wall breaches I'm realizing similar levels of casualties to my fights with defenders on the walls. Even enemy peasants have whooped up on my much superior troops. It was exasperating! :inquisitive:

In M2TW it seems the defender has a much better time against an attacker when defending a breach if he rushes troops to the breach quickly. The casualties pile up fast. :furious3: (This also seems to be true in bridge fights. One enemy cavalry unit can bottle up several of your cavalry units at the end of a bridge and inflict heavy casualties on you.)

Master Doug-Thompson by virtue of his greater experience seems not to have too much problem with siege towers securing walls. But even here, I have suffered huge casualties. A 1-1 tradeoff in casualties may still secure you a victory, but the replacement costs to rebuild your army are high. And I hate that, especially as I have been cash strapped in alot of my games. Again, some of my problem is inexperience with the game flow of M2TW.

Yes, by all means assault a city or castle with artillery - catapults, etc. And I have made the siege artillery building a priority in construction. But, so far my best solution has been to attack the city from more than one side.

While the AI will assign troops to defend against that, for me, the trick is to punch a couple holes and kick open the gate on the front wall, while also bashing through another gate on another side of the settlement. Then, do whatever you can to slip cavalry insided the city. Try to get at least one infantry unit in behind an already engaged enemy infantry unit somewhere, anywhere. Or, use your cavalry to hit an engaged enemy unit from behind. Once you rout one unit, you free up units to further engage the enemy defenders elsewhere. Eventually a rout cascades. Once the enemy units start panicking back to the town square, hit them hard!! :smash: Use your free cavalry to pounce on them. Don't give them any chance to regroup.

Banging straight ahead through a breach in the wall or through a forced gate is going to be costly if the defender can pin you at the breach. But if you can get any unit through to assist in a flank attack or rear attack on a unit bottling up your breaching unit, you can break free of the impasse and it reduces your casualties.

Attack a city from more than one side seems to be one answer. It spreads the defender's garrison out to more than one wall and gives you a better opportunity to divide and conquer.

It was a painful lesson to learn. I'm sure that there are other methods. And I'm sure as I gain more experience I'll have less problem with settlement assaults. But I've learned not to take my own unit superiority for granted.

Getting your archers on the enemy walls is certainly desireable. But most of my assaults have been too breach bound to give my archers much opportunity even when I do get them on the wall.

Run down fleeing, routing enemy units fast. Don't let him regroup. I haven't tried this myself yet, but there may be some validity to one Guild member's advice about bum-rushing the town square, since the game considers holding the town square a key to victory. The enemy will rush back to the square abandoning its fight at the breaches in the wall giving up his advantage. Then you can piecemeal him to death.

One other point deserves further mention. Sometimes it helps if you can afford to hold an enemy settlement under siege for awhile or until they attempt their final desperate sally. I've seen besieged units lose as much as 50% of their unit strength while under a siege. Taking on enemy units attrited down to half their original strength will surely reduce your casualties.

Good luck, phonics guy! And I hope my counsel serves truly.

Guyus Germanicus

07-20-2007, 22:26

To Gray Beard:

I saw your latest post at the office this afternoon, but for reasons of labor sanctity waited until I got home to write this response. I printed off the thread so I could read at my leisure your updated counsel of my earlier question. (I got off early from work today because they are remodelling our office and we're moving into our new permanent area on Monday.)

I have to admit there is a conspicuous gap in my Middle East library on Byzantium. I have Obolensky's book, The Byzantine Commonwealth, and Romilly Jenkins' Byzantium: The Imperial Centuries, but nothing else. My library tends to focus more on the early Islamic period, the Ottomans and on the ancient period of Anatolia and Persia. I do have sevveral things on the Crusades, but, of course, they cover the crusades and not the Byzantine Empire in depth.

I shall make a note of your references from your previous post. And I do have a book on the Fourth Crusade by Queller and Madden. Your enthusiasm has tweaked my interest a bit.

I am not as familiar with Gibbon as I should be so I can't fully appreciate your feelings there. I do have to give the game designers credit for the research they have done. The way they have woven the various features together in this package amazes me. The religious and economic sideshows in the campaign game are very clever and give this game a depth that RTW doesn't have. The Guilds are also cleverly done.

Thanks for the 'come back.'

Didz

07-20-2007, 22:36

Whose Grey beard?

ForgotMyOldNick

07-21-2007, 00:04

Early in the campaign game before too much artillery, I use cheaper troops with ladders as siege towers tend to catch fire a lot. I run toward the wall and try to get the ladders near the enemies missile troops as they will have a harder time repelling even cheaper troops unlike heavy infantry on the walls. While the missile troops are tied up with the expendables I rush my heavier and more expensive infantry onto the ladders next to stop the enemy's heavy infantry chewing through the rest of my expendables, all the while using missile troops to wilt down the enemies heavy infantry.

In a position of defense and when enemy has artillery, or a lot of missile troops I move my cavalry out a side gate and encircle them, in a far radii of movement so as to not get fired at etc. Just sitting there behind the assaulting army, even there presence affects the morale of the assaulters without attacking so they might rout more easily on the walls. Then when there is an opportunity I use the cavalry to strike artillery from behind and do as much damage as possible (if not too late for the walls) before running for the safety of the frontal gate. Heh, if executed badly expect heavy losses of cavalry; takes a bit of practise.

fenir

07-22-2007, 16:13

Don't need Anything But Ladders.
A trick i picked up in MTW 1.

1. Siege the town.

2. Spend time building lots of ladders, usually two turns instead of one turn.

3. So make sure what ever number of units you have, make sure you have atleast a ladder each, oh and a ram, but don't use the ram.

4. Ok Attack, now this is the trick.

5. 1 unit of orks on the rampart, Send two units with ladders, 1 either side of it. And repeat all at the same time on the others.
you will crush them bwteen and they will route quickly and die gloriously. Once the first is crushed, send the others to back door any other units.
Travel only on the walls till you have cleared them.

6. Once the walls are cleared, the enemy will head into the town Square.

7. Send units around to all access roads leading into the Square.

8. Crush again on a mass scale.

9. If done right, you too will get 10 to 1 kill ratio like me.

Nothing but ladders.

fenir

Ars Moriendi

07-22-2007, 17:22

TeutonicKnight

07-22-2007, 22:33

I'm still trying to remember how to recruit orks in M1TW...

Guyus Germanicus

07-23-2007, 01:07

Fenir,

I guess I'd have to watch you play because frankly I don't see how you're winning on the walls. Why aren't your men being slaughtered by the peasants (seriously) on the walls?

I've watched on E/E excellent units with 7/14 offensive/defensive skill get beaten back by the AI's defending archers or even PEASANTS on the walls. Units coming up the ladders get slaughtered. In fact, I have yet to win a city without getting some units through the gates. In RTW, you had to win the walls in order to secure the city because the gates were defended by boiling oil. If you didn't secure the gates from the walls, your attacking men, horses, elephants, etc., would get a good dousing of boiling oil coming through the gates. Hidden enemy archers in the wall towers would pick off your men in the streets below. You had to take the walls.

In M2TW, you don't have the boiling oil, but the AI is much stronger for defenders in a city/castle. So, . . . I guess I'm a bit incredulous at this point. If your laddermen are set to go up between two defending units on the walls, even if they are able to get completely on the wall before the real fighting starts, they're the meat between two slices of bread. And your effort will be toast shortly. So I guess as I said before, I'd have to see what you're doing, 'cause I'm not getting it.

In my experience with M2TW, you don't know where the defenders are positioned on a city wall until you start the combat. If I have two units with ladders sandwiching a unit without, you still don't know if you're going to have room to put your men up on the walls without fighting off defenders in the process. In a fight for a defended wall, my experience is - you lose regardless of how good your units are. Casualties are heavy, or worse.

When I have gotten units on the walls and am fighting toward a gate, it's like a bottle neck. You make slow or no progress and you take heavy casualties regardless of the poorer quality of the defending units. In RTW, if you had better troops attacking wall defenders, you knew you would win eventually even if the progress was slow. But in M2TW, troop quality is no guarantee that you can beat off even weak units. If you don't get the gate open and/or rush the square, you're assault is cooked. In my, albeit, limited experience the best way to clear the walls is to get the gate open or a breach open and get your troops 'on the ground' inside the city making for the square. That clears the walls.

Fighting on the city streets can be equally precarious. If you don't find a way to flank you opponent's units in the street - from a side or from behind, he can bottle you up and slaughter you piecemeal.

For me, at least, taking a settlement in M2TW is no piece of cake as it was in RTW. If I suffer only half the casualties of the defending army, I've done marvelously. But even so, the recruiting costs for replacements is expensive.

I'll admit, I'm usually not attacking cities with more than four spear/swordsman units teamed with 1-2 archers for the simple reason that I can't afford full stack armies.

Maybe a better question is - how are you able to afford these huge armies you're fielding in city assaults where you can have 3-4 teams of three units (two with ladders, one without?)

If I don't spread the defenders out to two or more sides of the city, I have a tougher time taking the city. If the garrison is large, I'm usually waiting out the siege for them to sally forth on the last turn before mandatory surrender. In truth, that's probably more true to life than mounting a lot of scale the wall assaults. But then, that process takes a lot of time, and M2TW requires a chop-chop campaign schedule. It appears to me that if you don't take a city or castle every other turn at the very least, you won't be able to sustain your economy.

To be frank, I'm having a very tough time with this game. There's nothing easy about the easy settings. I'm always short of money. But perhaps the biggest problem of all - I can't see anything in the combat game. Most of the time it's diffcult to distinguish between your units and the enemy's units even with the banners flying. A bad situation can spiral out of control before you even realize it happened. Distinguiushing between your various infantry units, or various cavalry units, is nearly impossible unless you move the camera down to 'eye' level. And that's problemmatic because you can't fight the battle from eye level.

Sorry for the long screed, but this has been frustrating.

Ars Moriendi

07-23-2007, 10:05

In a fight for a defended wall, my experience is - you lose regardless of how good your units are. Casualties are heavy, or worse.

Not my experience. Usually, a unit of DFK will take a section of the wall against most archers and militia/spear types. They'll suffer heavy casualties (30-50%) but they'll get the job done. Of course, if the enemy has swords or axes on the wall (or some of the tougher archers like scot guard), you'd better prepare 2-3 units for attack, as the first one will surely die. (I play with H battles)

In my, albeit, limited experience the best way to clear the walls is to get the gate open or a breach open and get your troops 'on the ground' inside the city making for the square. That clears the walls.

Breaching the gates/walls to allow several entry points is indeed the best way to go, destroying the towers around the breach at the same time. But many players (myself included) don't like lugging slow artillery on the strat map so we only use it rarely. For me, ladders is the most used siege device. They're better than towers, since units can run with them, and you can get ladders through the gate to climb the inner walls in castles.
Best use I found for rams and towers : use peasants to push them around, they'll attract most of the defensive fire increasing the survival rate for your ladder teams.

Fighting on the city streets can be equally precarious. If you don't find a way to flank you opponent's units in the street - from a side or from behind, he can bottle you up and slaughter you piecemeal.

Flanking is good, but if you can't pull it off, there are other ways to minimize casualties. Like, for example, you "bottling up" the AI instead :
If you took the walls intact, send your archers up on the sections nearest the gate. Clear the resistance around the gate, and when they start routing towards the center and before more reinforcement arrives from the plaza, use a solid spear unit to create a block on the main street - the street that usually runs straight from the gate to the plaza, where most of the enemy units will come from. The road block shouldn't be too far from the gate, just at the street entrance is best. Your archers on the walls have excellent range and line of fire due to the positional advantage, so they'll slaughter hundreds. Any archer unit is good - use fire arrows to break morale, or crossbows for better killing power.
Sending archers up the enemy walls is particularly effective with castles, where the last line of walls is just around the plaza - usually the enemy bodyguard plus any remaining units will just clump there and wait patiently for you to shoot them to pieces.

ReiseReise

07-23-2007, 15:33

3 step process, gunpowder arty works best, ballistas and wood walls will also work.
1) Hope that the front gate area is thrown out from the wall like so
If it is only on one side that is fine.

------- INSIDE -----------
x | eeeee eeeee eeeee eeeee eeee| x
|_________________GATE_______________|

OUTSIDE

2) Destroy towers and any walls with archers on them.
3) Move a cannon to one of the "x"s in the work of art above, and breach those walls. Now hopefully the enemy has 6-7 units lined up like the "eeee"s. (Breaching walls in front of them might get them to stand there) Target the unit farthest from the cannon, and put your waders on because their will be a LOT of blood. This is the part where I wish a had a screenie from the time i did this, because the carnage is unlike anything I have ever seen in the game. The (ideal) shots will rise through the closest units, crest through the middle, descend through the far and land in the farthest, obliterating an entire rank of each unit. The best I could do was 180 casualties from 1 round of fire, there is nothing like seeing a 200 yard path of blood splatters in the air, followed by hundreds of men dropping in unison.

Guyus Germanicus

07-23-2007, 23:11

Thanks Ars M.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness, and I took a few notes from your counsel. :study: It's nice to know, too, that I had the right idea in one strategy - the multiple wall assault. Appreciate the affirmation there.

Frankly, if I don't spread out the defenders, my 'boots on the ground' are going to suffer. I do like to blast breeches and the troopers standing behind the walls as ReiseReise shared about. (It's one of the small pleasures I've enjoyed in assaults.)

A couple of things I'm going to change in my game style: 1) I'm going to get rid of excess castles - go with 1 to 6 ratios (one castle for every six cities) and try to make the castles centrally located to a group of cities. I'm needing more cash, and I figure where I'm really falling down is I'm leaving my faction with too many castles and not enough moneymakers (cities.) 2) I'm going to ramp up the military buildings faster in at least one or two cities so I can get these higher quality infantry for siege assaults. :knight: And, 3) I think I'm going to break down and use a couple of the cheats, AKA., GoodTaxman and GoodAdminstrator.

Frankly, I didn't think I'd have so much trouble with M2TW as I am having. But I'm not an aggressive player and I think I've been enjoying the aesthetics of the game a little too much thus sacrificing opportunities because I'm still turtling. :turtle: Tempus fugit?!

Guess I'm getting too old for these video :stupido: games, eh? :whip: :whip: :whip:

I'm abit in awe of some of our guild experts. This game is just a cake walk for them. Not for me, bub. :)

phonicsmonkey

07-24-2007, 02:12

The best I could do was 180 casualties from 1 round of fire, there is nothing like seeing a 200 yard path of blood splatters in the air, followed by hundreds of men dropping in unison.

that sounds awesome

Gray Beard

07-24-2007, 02:51

I am Gray Beard. His post was moved from another thread. I normally post in the Byzantine and Horse archer threads

I normally worry about winning and then rebuild the troops that survive. I am not a very loss aware general at least in a game.

That said:

The best way to minimize casualties when taking a city is to do it the way the Medieval kings actually did it.

Starve your opponents out. Siege a city with a bigger army and leave it there for 8 or 9 turns. With each turn the force in the city gets weaker. As they run out of food this process speeds up. This cost lots of money but will preserve your troops. At the end of the siege the garrison will sally out and you can kill them in the field instead of on the walls.

A good time to do this is when you are besieging a city with defensive troops like Militia Spearmen and Militia Archers and unarmored horse archers. These troops don't attack well in any situation but are especially bad in dealing with troops behind walls. But, when the besieged city tries to break the siege then your attacking troops become defenders and the militias are in their element and often win the battle.

The obvious problems to this strategy besides the cost are that it gives your opponent an opportunity to bring up reinforcements and slows down the pace of conquest. Both of these can be a real problem.

One, sometimes overlooked, positive about leaving cities under siege is that often if you are sieging a big important place or a city with someones king in it you can obtain a cease fire under favorable terms including having your opponent give you a smaller city for ending the siege.

Another positive is that when you take city this way there is less damage to the buildings and the population is smaller making the city easier to hold and convert to your rule. This kind of mitigates the the cost of the sieging army somewhat though not completely

Guyus Germanicus

07-24-2007, 03:43

Thanks Gray Beard.

Actually I do prefer waiting out the sieges. If the settlement can only hold out for 4-5 turns, the waiting cost is not too high. If, however, the defending garrison is large and my army is not much larger, waiting is almost a necessity to attrition down the garrison. Truly, I experience the least casualties in siege combat when I force the defenders to sally out from behind their walls.

When the enemy sallies I usually box them in with spearmen. No rocket science technique really. It's like they're pouring their 'water' into my 'cup' of spearmen and swordsmen. My archers pelt them from behind my 'cup' and I move my cavalry to one side. The defender's archers are usually in a vulnerable position behind the sallying spearmen. So there is often an opportunity for my cavalry to hit the archers from the side. That starts the rout. Then it's slaughter time :skull: and I'm chasing panicky defenders back to the town square. The AI usually doesn't keep much of a reserve in such cases.

When they sally from the gate, their units are usually much depleted, as you pointed out. They rout even sooner.

You make a good point about negotiated cease fires. I haven't exploited that yet, but often I'm besieging rebels who have nothing to negotiate. And, yes, I don't like to have to repair alot of buildings after I've pulverized a city with artillery. The more holes you punch in the wall and the more towers you take out, the more expensive the repairs. Hundreds of florins. The campaign is proving expensive enough without making it more so needlessly. Ah, tradeoffs, tradeoffs.

I also agree that long sieges were the reality back in Medieval times. Our game, however, puts a veritable thumb in our backs via the campaign economy. If I can solve my money problems, I think I might actually enjoy the game more.

By the way, Gray Beard, I bought Norwich's short history of Byzantium. I book dealer friend of mine has a copy of the three volume set which I will try to pick up later. I met a British subject last weekend at my favorite bookstore who actually met Norwich in a bookstore in England. I guess he has quite the sense of humor. So far, the short history has been a very entertaining read. :book:

Thanks for the follow up.

Gray Beard

07-24-2007, 04:54

Guyus Germanicus,

Try looking at some of the works by Warren Treadgold (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-0700512-4318521?initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=treadgold%2C+warren&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go) He is an academic writer and therefore sometimes a little dry but you'll learn a lot. His book titled Byzantium and its Army was very enlightening as to the way the Byzantine economy worked and revolved around its military.

Ars Moriendi

07-24-2007, 08:31

@ReiseReise : That tactic is effective and extremely fun to watch. I managed to pull it off even against a human player : I sent a serpentine the long way around, counting on the fact that a human can't divide his attention as well as the AI. I kept him busy with my other arty battering his front gate defenses, and some xbows teasing the garrison, firing 1-2 volleys then falling back when some cav tried to charge them out the breaches. I don't think the defender realized what was happening until about the 5th shot or so - he probably thought his soldiers flying in long bloody rows are the work of my front side ballista (place somewhat oblique to the leftmost breach, and intended mainly as bait).

@Guyus Germanicus : I'm glad you find that useful. I've re-read you posts, and I don't think tactical advice is what you need most, you seem to be doing just fine in that regard. You just need more money. It's normal to take heavy casualties when assaulting, if anything I think it's a bit too easy to breach/take walls and I'm slightly disappointed each time when the walls fall to fast (whether I'm defending or assaulting).

@Gray Beard : About the wait-or-assault issue - before making a decision make sure you consider the upkeep cost for the army that's tied up laying siege (as opposed to advancing in enemy territory or battling some army in the field) ; and the fact that the sooner you get the sacking paycheck, the sooner you can invest and multiply the $$$ (say you upgrade mines 5-6 turns earlier, that is 500 to 2000 extra florins, depending on the region).

I made a quick calculation based on a random, typical situation from an older savegame :
I had a stack laying siege, after first turn (built ladders/rams). The countdown says 7 more turns until the city falls. Total value of my army 9230fl, upkeep 2665fl. The enemy has a 4784fl stack inside - if using value as a rough indicator of strength, it means I could take them quite easily right away. So what do I do : wait 7 turns (total upkeep = 18655fl) OR take the city by assault (2260fl losses with autoresolve), take the sacking cash (5546fl) which properly invested could bring thousands more florins over 7 turns, and move my stack to attack that enemy army nearby ?
Which do you think makes more economic sense ? Why do you think blitzing is so powerful ?
Conclusion : if you have a 2:1 advantage or better, assault as soon as possible and use autoresolve (a bit of an exploit, I know, but hey, this thread is about optimizing losses )

Guyus Germanicus

07-24-2007, 12:46

@Gray Beard - I'm familiar with Treadgold, just not with his work on Byzantium. Thanks for the tip.

@Ars M - You got it! moneymoneymoneyMUHnee! (Also, it's nice to know I might not be as bad a 'fighter' as I thought.)

Askthepizzaguy

07-24-2007, 12:52

@Guyus Germanicus. Re: your sig line
___________________
"Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
-- Luke, Episode VI

Guyus Germanicus

07-28-2007, 08:07

Just a follow up. I had complained earlier about always being short of money in my campaign games. I think I know now what my main problem was. I was retaining too many castles. I have launched into a couple games recently and have made my ratios 6-8 cities for every one castle. I actually have some money in the bank now. I'm getting my castles to crank out the good troops too because I have a money cushion from the profits of my cities.

I do want to pass a 'thank you' on to several fellow guilders who have shared advice or encouragement on my difficulties - including Gray Beard, Ars Moriendi, ReiseReise, and 'pizzaguy.' Looking at the progressive photo chronicles at the Pizza War college :beam: helped me to see how someone else handled movement and city management. It's amazing how just watching someone else attack a problem can help you make an adjustment in your own play.

And, of course, Master DougThompson's writings are always enlightening. Hope this thank you gets visibility with the aforementioned.

Now I need to work on my combat phase. :yes:

Gray Beard

07-28-2007, 11:49

I agree that the cost of taking a city by siege is too expensive. However, if you want to take it without casualties that is the only way to do it.

Look at my Byzantine walk-through and you'll see what is effectively a Blitz Campaign to take out the Turks and prepare to roll up the Venetians.

Especially at the lower levels the Byzantine Infantry are so poor you can't really worry about casualties you just have to build more.

TevashSzat

07-28-2007, 12:29

Guyus Germanicus

07-28-2007, 15:46

Well 2 ways to minimize casualties. 1. Autocalc and let the bad calc do all the work. 2. attack an army adjacent to the city. The garrison will come as reinforcements, but you must destroy the garrison completely including almost all of the routers to have the city undefended

Here, Here!
I've discovered that autocalc is saving me some casualties in some battles. Until I learn how to 'combat' bettere, I'm going to us that option more. (Practise practice, on the custom battle secition.)

Also, the adjacent-army-to-city-attack is a good notion. I like forcing a besieged army to sally on the last turn as they're depleted and forfeiting the protection of their walls and towers. If they've got a unit just standing around outside the settlement, they make the sally-forth happen sooner as the AI usually has the settlement garrison backup the unit being attacked. I learned that little trick in RTW.

Excellent thoughts, Xdeathfire.

Guyus Germanicus

07-28-2007, 16:00

Jammer

08-17-2007, 12:49

This thread is a few weeks old, but it's got some good info. Some new ideas to me anyway.

However, I am surprised that only one poster barely mentioned what seems like the #1 way to seige. Don't. Simply take the city or castle.

Spies, spies, and more spies

Sure, arty is fun. I love watching flaming raining death as much as the next general. If a citadel is packed full of troops, killing them from a distance is great.

90% of the time, though, with spies opening the gates I can rush 3 sides of a city with foot soldiers, send cavalry around and in the back door and outmaneuver the surprised defenders.

my 2 cents.

The Stranger

08-17-2007, 16:46

send 2-4 elite infantry on the walls to capture it... when that is done send your archers on the wall and use the infantry to capture all the towers... then use the towers and your archers to shoot the enemy below in the street... when most are killed send in remaining infantry and cav to finish

Atreides

08-17-2007, 16:50

I agree that the cost of taking a city by siege is too expensive. However, if you want to take it without casualties that is the only way to do it..

Personally I disagree with this way of thinking. The better cities make after the sunk cost's still, 1000 - 3000 florins per turn.

On the other hand your (expensive?) Army is sitting around doing nothing. Just siege (also not potential militia bonus).

So why is attack profitable, the 7 turns of earning 1000 or more net is a lot (7000 - 21.000). You could buy 14 units of V-Guard of this. You probably never need that much replacements…..

On the other hand your massive standing army is ready for an other job. Preferably the next city…..

You got four options.
1. Attacking an army nearby the city, the city sallying out. Destroy it completely.
2. Attack right away with spies/siege engines.
3. Sit and wait till you got rams, ladders etc. (1-2 turns).
4. Wait till the are forced to sally/surrender the city (5 – 7 turns).

Option one rely on an better army in quality, quantity or preferable, balance. This is the best option since you face your foe in the open wield.
Option two is also a good one, but the advantage fades in time, the more advanced cities require more build-up.

Option four is only attractive if you can’t do option 1 or if there is an garrison that is very very strong OR there is (probably) an relief army on his way…..

Depending of the quality of the garrison and the possible relief army option 1 is your first choice, two your second etc….