New factions? [Archive] - Page 6

oudysseos

01-17-2009, 16:33

I disagree. I think that the Belgae would be an excellent choice for a variety of reasons.
A. They were really there and were a significant regional power, at least according to Caesar.
B. They would not be another Celtic faction like the Averni and Aedui, but a half Germanic half Celtic fusion, which could be really interesting and add to the diversity.
C. They can mix up the Sweboz steamroller and make the interplay in Gaul more complex, especially for the Romans or Carthies trying to swallow up the whole thing.
D. Could possibly also get involved in Britain (scripts? I dunno just talkin off the top of me head).

And on the other side of Averni/Aedui I think that there should be at least one more faction in Iberia: either a Celtiberian faction like the Arevaci, an Aquitanian faction like the Vascones that straddles the Pyrenees, or an East coast pre-Celtic Iberian faction like the Edetani that mixes with the Greeks of Emporion. That way there would be a continuum of Celt-related factions running from the SW corner of Spain to the shores of the North Sea, like it really was.

oudysseos

01-17-2009, 17:39

????

Mediolanicus

01-17-2009, 17:47

Much shitstorm.

That was very constructive...

A Belgae tribe would be great since it would be a buffer for the Sweboz, certainly when they've got a Lugian or a Boii tribe on the other side too. They were an expansive bunch and could be given a stronghold in Britain (or by script). Plus they are indeed a nice mixture of Celtic and Germanic influences.
On the down side. The Belgae were a bunch of very independent tribes, so I don't know if they really deserve a faction as a whole...
It would make Gaul a little bit overcrowded too, but with 10 extra factions trown in I think every part of the map will be a bit crowded. Some faction will be overrun early in the game, so I believe we need a way to make factions reappear to solve that.

antisocialmunky

01-17-2009, 23:04

Well, the not-so-centralized-or-tied-to-the-land factions should be able to horde.

Also, that Hella-Celti-Iberian Emporion faction sounds fun. More Hellenic Celts!

Jolt

01-18-2009, 02:19

...Why not Atlantis?

antisocialmunky

01-18-2009, 03:33

They nuked themselves and their alien overlords well before EB's time frame.

Ludens

01-18-2009, 12:29

Well, the not-so-centralized-or-tied-to-the-land factions should be able to horde.

The TW horde ability is not a proper representation of migration. I mean, the Celts could and did migrate, but they didn't do so when Ceasar conquered Gaul. Migrations occurred due to population pressure and/or displacement, not conquest. R:TW's horde ability is triggered by conquest, however. I don't know how it works in M2:TW, though, so perhaps it can be made to work in EB2.

antisocialmunky

01-18-2009, 15:44

Well, doesn't conquest in the traditional way where people show up, kill people, and do not leave result in displacement of another population? For example, the unit card for the Ligurians talks about how those people were displaced from the Po valley when the Celts showed up. Caesar didn't move people in. He killed everyone who he didn't like. Also, I don't know about any sources that talk about refugee issues, displacement, or emmigration anyways for Caesar's war in Gaul. But usually in protracted wars, you end up having refugees that move someplace else to get away from the fighting.

Besides, horde doesn't really model the wholesale movement of population, just that the center of power has been taken out and the leaders and their followers are moving somewhere elsewhere to continue the fight.

Wholesale migration on the other hand, works better with something like the Jihad thing. If you replaced Imams with 'lesser nobles,' or something and give them a trait that enables a Jihad whenever the population in a certain city gets too high... However, I'm not too sure about how to mess with the populations afterwards(area where Jihad was launched loses people, area that the Jihad conquers gains people).

Subotan

01-18-2009, 23:18

How about only certain factions gaining the ability to horde (E.g. Barbaroi, nomads), and even then only with a 50% chance, and a limit to how many times they can do it?

General Appo

01-18-2009, 23:53

Not sure if you can do that.

lenin96

01-19-2009, 02:07

What about the Saka, on their faction discription it mentions something about some invaders attacking their old land and then having to move away, I haven't read it for a while though. and what about the Sauromatae, the EB team said they were far from settling.

Ludens

01-19-2009, 19:18

Well, doesn't conquest in the traditional way where people show up, kill people, and do not leave result in displacement of another population?

I am not sure what you are saying, but conquest often does not mean that the conquered population is killed or exiled. In general, conquest mostly involves a change in ruling class, and sometimes not even that (for example with Roman protectorates). Caesar made a big dent in Gaul's population, but he didn't leave it a wasteland.

Horde, as it was in BI, definitely models the wholesale displacement of people. It just models it badly. It can't be defeated, individual leaders, because these are generally unable to raise large amounts of troops, and certainly not levies who fight mostly to protect their own homes. Levies'd only want to fight for those leaders if their families were coming with them, i.e. it's a full-blown migration.

Subotan

01-23-2009, 18:49

I predict that Stele #8 will be presented on 4:36 P.M. GMT on January 24.

Give or take a week

I'm holding the EB team to that.

Mediolanicus

01-23-2009, 19:15

I'm just hoping he's good at predicting.

Hax

01-23-2009, 23:31

Congratulations Oudysseos!

Well-deserved, seeing all your work I've seen here!

A. They were really there and were a significant regional power, at least according to Caesar.
B. They would not be another Celtic faction like the Averni and Aedui, but a half Germanic half Celtic fusion, which could be really interesting and add to the diversity.
C. They can mix up the Sweboz steamroller and make the interplay in Gaul more complex, especially for the Romans or Carthies trying to swallow up the whole thing.
D. Could possibly also get involved in Britain (scripts? I dunno just talkin off the top of me head).

Ah yes, I've spoken with k_raso about exactly the same thing. As far as I know, one of the most important tribes of the Belgae were the Menapii, who had a lot of contacts in Britain. I also believe that both the Nervii and Eburones were both Celto-Germanic, which would certainly give them a very, very interesting unit roster, not to mention them halting the Sweboz war machine a bit.

I've written some stuff about them here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2104576&postcount=138)

Subotan

01-25-2009, 00:17

I'm holding the EB team to that.

DAMN IT EB TEAM
Why do you hurt me so?

/jk

desert

01-25-2009, 01:17

Read the disclaimer:
Give or take a week.

There's still hope.

oudysseos

01-25-2009, 12:49

Thanks Hax, nice of you. I just got going on Friday and haven't really done anything for the team yet.

Obviously now I can't comment on the new factions, nor were any of my previous guesses informed by information that I now possess. :batman:

Hax

01-25-2009, 13:05

Obviously now I can't comment on the new factions, nor were any of my previous guesses informed by information that I now possess. :batman:

Hehe, true this.

Connacht

01-25-2009, 17:46

Anyway, every single player of EB is hoping for a super pwning Bartix alien faction which invades Earth on 172 BC (minimum) when a Saka family member with both "Gourmet of Life" and "Dislikes Barbarians" traits enters in Capua and triggers the Oh-My-Spam invasion that spawns a lot of rebel Lugians, Celtiberians and Numidians near Eburonum. If they manage to land in Cyprus and then succesfully conquer Armavir then the Bartix invasion will begin.
But only if in Armavir there is a Latifundiae building and the Lusotannan have been vanquished not after the 201 BC by a Sauromatae family member with a Greek historian in the retinue.

theoldbelgian

01-25-2009, 19:32

:laugh4:
Anyway, every single player of EB is hoping for a super pwning Bartix alien faction which invades Earth on 172 BC (minimum) when a Saka family member with both "Gourmet of Life" and "Dislikes Barbarians" traits enters in Capua and triggers the Oh-My-Spam invasion that spawns a lot of rebel Lugians, Celtiberians and Numidians near Eburonum. If they manage to land in Cyprus and then succesfully conquer Armavir then the Bartix invasion will begin.
But only if in Armavir there is a Latifundiae building and the Lusotannan have been vanquished not after the 201 BC by a Sauromatae family member with a Greek historian in the retinue.

mmh ah well
at least its easier to get then the augustans:laugh4:

Mediolanicus

01-25-2009, 20:04

mmh ah well
at least its easier to get then the augustans:laugh4:

:laugh4::laugh4: Well, there's a lot of truth in that!

Subotan

01-25-2009, 21:23

:laugh4:

mmh ah well
at least its easier to get then the augustans:laugh4:

OH SNAP :yes:

eddy_purpus

01-26-2009, 22:53

oudysseos

01-26-2009, 22:59

It's a new faction, obscured so you can't tell what it is.

Maybe.

Hax

01-26-2009, 23:08

MWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

/spam

EDIT: So I won't be flayed alive;

what is that occultus banner in your sig ?

It's also something of the past, when the Saba faction wasn't revealed yet. The most sadistic of EB members decided it would be a good idea to pain the anxious people even further.

Meneldil

01-26-2009, 23:51

Actually, Occultus was first used for the Yuezhi I think.

ziegenpeter

01-28-2009, 14:48

Actually, Occultus was first used for the Yuezhi I think.
We need a EB-historian (I mean someone with knowledge in EBs history) to research and write an expertise on this!
:2thumbsup:

BozosLiveHere

01-28-2009, 20:29

It was either Epeiros or Arverni, maybe both.

Hax

01-28-2009, 20:39

I think Epeiros, Arverni, Saba or Saka or Yuezhi,

Strategos Alexandros

01-28-2009, 21:08

The first occultus sigs were before the release of 0.7, so it couldn't have been Saba or Saka.

Ludens

01-28-2009, 22:02

I think Epeiros, Arverni, Saba or Saka or Yuezhi,

I can't remember how the first occultus signs looked, but they referred to the secret factions of the open beta (EB 0.7). These were Epeiros, Averni and the Yuezhi. The team had kept quiet on the fact that they had unlocked the Roman faction slots (apart from the senate one, which could only be used after EB ported to R:TW 1.5), so nobody expected that there were three factions in addition to the ones already previewed. The Saba were not added until EB 0.8, and the Yuezhi were replaced by the Saka at that time. IIRC they didn't get occultus signatures: instead the team released their faction symbols while leaving us to guess which faction they might belong to.

Hax

01-28-2009, 23:33

Ah, so it is!

Thanks, Ludens :bow:

Moros

01-29-2009, 22:34

I can't remember how the first occultus signs looked, but they referred to the secret factions of the open beta (EB 0.7). These were Epeiros, Averni and the Yuezhi. The team had kept quiet on the fact that they had unlocked the Roman faction slots (apart from the senate one, which could only be used after EB ported to R:TW 1.5), so nobody expected that there were three factions in addition to the ones already previewed. The Saba were not added until EB 0.8, and the Yuezhi were replaced by the Saka at that time. IIRC they didn't get occultus signatures: instead the team released their faction symbols while leaving us to guess which faction they might belong to.

That's quite correct. One of the banners is still used by Khelvan btw. So if you want to see one, check out his profile. I don't remember Saka or Sab'yn occultus sig's myself either. And as huge occultus fan I'm sure I'd have had one of them as my sig.

eddy_purpus

01-31-2009, 11:35

you have had ?
or...
YOU HAVE ONE RIGHT NOW ?:leo:
LOL
Oh ...
and why was Yuezhi removed from the mod :???

Moros

01-31-2009, 12:02

you have had ?
or...
YOU HAVE ONE RIGHT NOW ?:leo:
LOL
Oh ...
and why was Yuezhi removed from the mod :???

I've had one before 0.7 and I have a new one now.

Yuezhi: furhter investigation showed that they weren't yet west enough at our timeframe to be on our map which didn't go as far east as we previously tought.

Sir Edward

03-07-2010, 18:13

As interesting as this discussion is I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

I'll contribute by trying to get the thread back on topic.

1. Pergamon -- preview already available.
2. Bosphorean Kingdom-- a hellenic faction with a nice variety of native scythians & thracians
3. Belgae-- already has a small entry in the EB website, where they state starting territories, would be in a position to disrupt gaul and sweboz expansions, along with through rebellions giving the casse someone to fight in britain.
4. Boii-- an eastern europe celt faction, in my opinion at this time was better organized politically then the alternative illyrians tribe, keeps rome from heading north east to quickly and Epirus focus on the Balkans. EB addded a unit or 2 specific for the Boii in the last update.
5. Arevaci-- celtiberians, highlights the diversity of peoples in the iberian peninsula, metal working, coin minting, urbanized into oppida, subjugated their neighbors, make & broke alliances, a diversity of weapons and fighting styles, led the resistance along with the Belli against the Romans.
6. Atropatene-- an ancient diadochi kingdom in Azerbaijan, I can't find to many records about them but they were independent of the Seleucids. I admit I don't know much about their fighting style but imagine it to be simiar to the Hai and the Seleucids. Would give armenia someone to compete against for control of Caucasus and another thorn in the side of the gray death or an ally/bufferstate against parthian western expansion.
7. Gandhara--Something needs to be done about India, the current system of reelling to parthian control gives disruptive results, akin to what happen with Arabian Peninsula in pre-Saba EB. To represent the Mauryan empire would be out of the question but it would be nice to have a Mauryan northwestern satrap faction in game, taxilla from what i've read was a provincial capital.
8. Massyli-- Numidians faction, guarantees Carthage will have to fight for dominance in North Africa.
9. Nabataea-- Northern Arabian kingdom, access to red sea and arab trade routes, ramained independent until conquest by Traijan, expanded territory north into jordan at cost of weaken Seleucids.
10. Empty-- this faction slot should remain open for scripting purposes.

REally excited about the news Boii preview this week. Also looking back through old thread I found this. So far I'm hitting 3 for 3 in confirmed predictions (Boii, Bosphorean Kingdom, & Massyli). Cmon EB team lets continue this clairvoyance streak. Keep up the great work EB.

Zarax

03-07-2010, 18:23

Somebody said something about clairvoyance long ago...

Tell to the king that the carven hall is fallen in decay;
Apollo has no chapel left, no prophesying bay,
No talking spring. The stream is dry that had so much to say.

Mulceber

03-07-2010, 23:15

REally excited about the news Boii preview this week. Also looking back through old thread I found this. So far I'm hitting 3 for 3 in confirmed predictions (Boii, Bosphorean Kingdom, & Massyli). Cmon EB team lets continue this clairvoyance streak. Keep up the great work EB.

Nice, but I don't think we're gonna get the Ghandahara kingdom - the EB team has already stated that they don't want to put any factions in India because they wouldn't have access to the whole of India. We'll see how you do for the rest. -M

Ludens

03-08-2010, 19:59

Nice, but I don't think we're gonna get the Ghandahara kingdom - the EB team has already stated that they don't want to put any factions in India because they wouldn't have access to the whole of India. We'll see how you do for the rest. -M

Back in the first stele the team wrote there would be no Maurean Empire, but left open the possibility of a Maurean satrapy as faction. I doubt this will happen, though.

olly

03-09-2010, 14:59

Mulceber

03-09-2010, 15:05

I doubt it - if they were to split up the KH, the only logical way to do it would be to make each city state its own faction, and there just aren't enough slots for that. To my mind, there aren't any problems with the Koinon Hellenon that don't come down to the limitations of the RTW engine. -M

anubis88

03-09-2010, 15:07

There is a dire need to have a faction in Iberia so that is a must and I really hope that they split up KH a bit so I can just take control of one of the leagues or Sparta. Does anyone think KH will be split up.

The team has stated that the KH wont be split up. All the factions from EB I will remain unchanged (perhaps the Casse might get some alterations imho)

caradepato

03-15-2010, 12:40

I for one would like to see the suiones, but i can understand that maybe there are not sufficiant sources in order to make an accurate faction.

B-Wing

03-15-2010, 14:39

I really can't imagine why anyone would want to see the KH divided into separate factions. I must admit that I haven't played them yet, but from what I've read around here, they have an extremely difficult campaign start. Based on that impression, seems like splitting them up would make it impossible for each individual city-state.

Mulceber

03-15-2010, 14:56

The reason is that they're not historical: the Koinon Hellenon is supposed to represent the alliance between Athenai, Sparte and Rhodos that happened during the Chremonidean War of 267-261. That's all well and good, but if they had won the war (they didn't), they would have then split up and likely resumed the internecine civil wars which had characterized Greece from the Archaic period all the way down to the conquest of Greece by Philip II. Thus, the idea of the KH driving out Makedonia and then going on to unite a whole bunch of Greek colonies throughout the Mediterranean into one Greek Empire is ridiculous. The ideal would be if we could have Athenai, Sparte and Rhodos as separate factions and have them just be firm allies, but anyone who's played EB knows that 1. The AI is too stupid for a Greek Alliance to be effective if 2/3 of its members are controlled by the AI and 2. the AI would likely betray the player in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, the Koinon Hellenon faction is the best the EB team can do with the limitations of the RTW engine. -M

Phalanx300

03-15-2010, 16:43

Best way to do it would probably be spawning a lot of rebellions after you "liberated" Greece. But yeah having independant factions would be better but not possible within the faction limits.

Hotseat_User

03-16-2010, 09:34

and there are forced by game alliances in MED II Kingd. as I remember the tripple beast of Russia/Kiev/Byzanz in "Schwert und Speer 4.0" they couldn't cease the alliance - only a player who played one of them.

Mulceber

03-16-2010, 10:50

That is true - and there was the whole Iulii/Bruti/Scipiones (I refuse to say the names Creative Assembly ACTUALLY gave them) alliance in Vanilla RTW which couldn't be ended except by the end of the Republic. So I suppose it would be possible to make a KH that would stick together (at least long enough to get rid of Makedonia), but then you have the issue of the AI being too stupid. Vanilla dealt with that by nerfing everyone but Rome, but I don't see the EB team wanting to do that (for the KH or for anyone else).

I suppose if they had the available faction slots, they could make either the Athenaioi, the Spartiatai or the Rhodioi playable (apologies if that was the incorrect plural for someone from Rhodes - my Greek isn't as good as my Latin), and make a fixed alliance between the three. Then, they could trigger the alliance to end right after the death of the Makedonian Faction and maybe the Epeirote Faction and give the player the task of conquering the other two members of the alliance before going on to conquer the Mediterranean. That would be pretty darn cool, if they had the faction slots, although they'd have to list the difficulty for each member as "nigh impossible," since they'd be having to conquer Makedonia with little help from their AI allies and then defeat said AI allies.

Either that or, instead of making it a "fixed" alliance," they could just use the jihad function from Medieval II so that the Greek factions would work in concert to destroy the Makedonioi, and could theoretically do the same for the Epeirotes or the Romani, or whoever represented a danger to Greek independence. The problem you run into there though is the risk of one member just declaring a jihad on whoever they were at war with, but I suppose you MIGHT be able to find some coding ways around that; for example, you could make jihad only available if certain regions (such as any of the following: Attica, Aitolia, Thessaly, the Peloponnese, and Rhodos) are under siege or held by a non-Greek-or-Eleutheroi faction. But this is all hypothetical, since the EB team has said they are not splitting up the KH. -M

Foot

03-16-2010, 13:47

We have plans for the KH, and you shouldn't expect to play them in the same way as you would play another faction. You will need to balance internal politics between the three major city states in the alliance, and the more territory you gain, the more unstable the alliance becomes. But you will be able to solidify the alliance into something for stable through careful diplomacy between the different cities.

Foot

Horatius Flaccus

03-16-2010, 16:09

Does that mean that you can 'transform' into an empire?

artaxerxes

03-16-2010, 16:15

Mulceber

03-16-2010, 16:16

Cute Wolf

03-16-2010, 16:47

Thanks for the info - I have no doubt that the EBII team will turn out something great for the KH. -M

Maybe Sparta, Athenai and Rhodos are separate factions.... :clown:

Or did the team decide to create a "Pope" factions for KH scripting purpose?

WinsingtonIII

03-16-2010, 18:00

Maybe Sparta, Athenai and Rhodos are separate factions.... :clown:

Or did the team decide to create a "Pope" factions for KH scripting purpose?

They're not going to split them. The team has said already that all EB1 factions will remain in, which means the KH will remain as one entity. Plus, three faction slots is a bit much to use for three city-states whose importance was historically in decline in this period.

I'm also fairly sure that the team has previously said that they will not use a faction slot for a "Pope" faction, although I might be wrong. I do remember that they ruled out the use of "crusades" as a feature (to represent migrations I believe) because they require a separate "Pope" faction, which makes it seem unlikely to me that they will include one. But, who knows?

Mulceber

03-16-2010, 18:08

I don't think you'd actually need the "pope" faction slot - Jihad in M2 doesn't make use of it, even though it functions in a similar manner to crusades. -M

Cute Wolf

03-16-2010, 18:31

Yeah, depending what they decide to use these labels... Catholic, Orthodox, Islam, Pagan, and Heretic.....

bobbin

03-16-2010, 19:18

I don't think you'd actually need the "pope" faction slot - Jihad in M2 doesn't make use of it, even though it functions in a similar manner to crusades. -M

Crusades need a papal faction as you need to ask somone to call one, jihads are done through agents and so don't need to do this.

WinsingtonIII

03-16-2010, 19:27

I don't think you'd actually need the "pope" faction slot - Jihad in M2 doesn't make use of it, even though it functions in a similar manner to crusades. -M

I know, that's why I said they only specifically ruled out crusades as a feature. They have left open the possibility of using jihads.

Mulceber

03-16-2010, 19:45

Oh ok, my bad - I saw that you said that they ruled out crusades, but didn't realize that you were intentionally leaving open jihads. -M

WinsingtonIII

03-17-2010, 00:30

Oh ok, my bad - I saw that you said that they ruled out crusades, but didn't realize that you were intentionally leaving open jihads. -M

It's cool, I guess I should have made that clear

caetrati

04-01-2010, 23:31

IAnd on the other side of Averni/Aedui I think that there should be at least one more faction in Iberia: either a Celtiberian faction like the Arevaci, an Aquitanian faction like the Vascones that straddles the Pyrenees, or an East coast pre-Celtic Iberian faction like the Edetani that mixes with the Greeks of Emporion. That way there would be a continuum of Celt-related factions running from the SW corner of Spain to the shores of the North Sea, like it really was.

Well, I think it's a good idea to add a new faction in Iberia, the Arevaci are the best choice. They were more advanced than the other Celt tribes although they were strong power in cultural terms and in military issues. Archeological researches have shown more data from them and are more representative than the evidences we have about other non-mediterranean tribes from Iberia.

Secondly, as celtic faction in the game they will be a really genuine celtic faction that will add new aspects in the celtic factions, I mean they have a very particular personality that we know deeply, because of the iberic connections.

Edetani are an interesting option, but it doesnt appear so highlighted as the Turdetani or Arevaci in Iberia.

About the Vasconi, I think It is somehow strange to add them at this time period in the game. We only know about them later, and with any role in military actions agaisnt Rome, and absolutely their craftworks and the rest of archeological facts show them with no relevance. The were a ingnote tribe in the pirinean valleys until the Rome's arrival.

Hannibal Khan the Great

04-02-2010, 01:12

Proto-Saxons in Skandza!(April fools!:clown:) But seriously, a new Germanic faction would be epic goodness.

Morte66

04-04-2010, 23:47

I've been playing EB1 as Massalia, by relocating the KH using console codes. I thought I might contribute a few observations in case the team is thinking about them for EB2:

I've recruited mainly from local MICs, getting a mix of Greek/Gallic/Celto-Hellenic units plus the unique Massalian Hoplites. Add the KH bodyguards for stopping power, and Celtic Lesser Kings or Hellenistic Mercenary Generals for a seasoning of elites. I was hurting for cavalry at first, and I made do with mercs until I got the MICs for Gallic horse. I think I've played every faction in EB1 and I find the Massalian troop mix new and interesting, plus it's a different mix of enemies (Gauls, Iberians, Romani, maybe Carthage) from what you'd normally get playing as Greeks. I must confess when Pergamon was announced I yawned a bit -- it's not like we're short of Daidochi armies fighting their Daidochi neighbours. But the Bosporian Kingdom was an antidote to that, offering brand new gameplay, and Massalia could be too.

Strategically Massalia is pretty hard but not silly. The army is nothing fancy, the economy is OK (coastal trade and some mines nearby). There are powerful enemies close by. They remind me somewhat of Baktria -- it takes a little while for the threat to develop, but when it does there's a lot of threat from a lot of directions. I put far more effort into diplomacy than usual, e.g. getting an alliance to stop the war between the Sweboz and the Aedui so the Aedui could pay more attention to the Romani who were knocking on my door,

Do not play Maasalia in EB1 with BI.exe. You'll want to take Tolosa, and people who live more than a year's march away (Rome and Carthage) will want to ship great big armies there for no discernible reason, starting wars with you and ruining all your diplomacy. So my one big caveat about seeing them in EB2 is "would the MTW AI do something equally stupid?"

All told, they are a good challenge and a nice shot of novelty. A fun (potential) faction, IMHO.

B-Wing

04-05-2010, 03:20

Morte66, that's a very interesting post. I've always liked the idea of doing a "migration" campaign. But I must inform you that I've read multiple times on this forum and TWCenter's that Massalia has been ruled out as a playable faction for EB2. Reason being they were not expansionistic enough. I'd encourage you to make a Massalian AAR, though!

bobbin

04-05-2010, 03:50

Correct, Massalia was ruled out way back at the start of EBII development.

Apázlinemjó

04-05-2010, 08:59

I wonder if the Scordisci will be in as they got a lot of attention from the ancient writers (Strabo, T. Livius, Appian and etc.) after the "not happened" sack of Delphoi by the celts. Also they would have a very good position to annoy the west-hellenistic factions, Rome, the Getai and the Boii.

Morte66

04-05-2010, 11:06

But I must inform you that I've read multiple times on this forum and TWCenter's that Massalia has been ruled out as a playable faction for EB2. Reason being they were not expansionistic enough.

Ach, whilst I know in my head that the EB team are historians first and game designers second, I keep forgetting it. ;)

Zradha Pahlavan

04-22-2010, 17:18

What about Meroe? Or did that kingdom just not do enough in EB's timeframe to warrant a faction slot?

Hax

04-22-2010, 17:19

What about Meroe? Or did that kingdom just not do enough in EB's timeframe to warrant a faction slot?

Proper representation of the Kingdom of Meroë would require another culture slot that we simply don't have.

oudysseos

04-22-2010, 19:26

And more provinces than we have. And probably more building complexes than we have. Oh, and likely more units slots than we have.

Hax

04-22-2010, 19:27

Well that pretty much settles it, right?

Brennus

04-22-2010, 20:49

Well now that there are the Boii, Aedui, Averni and a British faction I am happy with whatever is announced from now on. Up the Celts!

oudysseos

04-22-2010, 22:15

Oh, 2 or 3 more Celtic factions to come, depending on who you count as Celts.

B-Wing

04-22-2010, 22:19

Well I'd say that pretty much confirms either Belgae and/or Scordiscii.
(sorry if I butchered the spelling of either of those tribes)

Mediolanicus

04-22-2010, 22:45

Well I'd say that pretty much confirms either Belgae and/or Scordiscii.
(sorry if I butchered the spelling of either of those tribes)

Or Celt-Iberians, or Lugians, or Galatians,...

Hannibal Khan the Great

04-23-2010, 01:26

Or even Germans, considering some people's insane idea that they were a type of Celt:laugh4:

oudysseos

04-23-2010, 02:35

Or maybe I was being misleading?

Or maybe not?

Bloody Sacha

04-23-2010, 06:27

Looking forward to the Belgae and the Galatians.

Or even Germans, considering some people's insane idea that they were a type of Celt:laugh4:

Dont let the archeology fool you, they where actually from Atlantis.

Macilrille

04-23-2010, 12:27

If we make them ;-)

Edit, well... I once read a book by some insane German pseudohistorian claiming that Atlantis was Helgoland, so you never know. Perhaps we will make a German-Atlantoid faction...

B-Wing

04-23-2010, 14:15

I've got serious doubts about Galatia being a faction, but Belgae and Celtiberi seem like perfect candidates.

Brennus

04-23-2010, 17:21

I seem to recall the Belgae being ruled out as the information on them c.272BC was not very good, although I could be wrong. The Belgae would be nice though, would allow players to be Commius and command the Belgae migration to Britain. One thing seems certain it won't be a Goidelic factions (30,000 baloons for the man who can find enough La Tene material in Ireland to fill a garden shed).

Could it possibly be the Bastarnae (I have next to no knowledge of them so please leave my head on my shoulders) there is certainly plenty of space in that part of the map even with the Bosporan Greeks added.

Personally my money is on the Arevaci or the Vaccaei.

Brennus

04-23-2010, 17:24

Sorry, I retract my suggestion of the Bastarnae.

Subotan

04-23-2010, 21:08

Or maybe I was being misleading?

Or maybe not?
WIFOM
:stare:
Vote:oudysseos

Cyclops

04-27-2010, 06:37

Someone noted there were a few factions mentioned in EB1 as unlucky to miss out and IIRC the Belgae were one of them.

Oh, 2 or 3 more Celtic factions to come, depending on who you count as Celts.

I count the Mauryans as Celts, can we have them? :sweatdrop: You know even though there is no archaeological basis, the La Tene Veda is a pretty unambiguous source...:book:

j/k of course I realise the same restrictions on Meroe apply to Indian factions.

Its a shame about the limits but the poor modders working away need some kind of frame to their work or they'll be skinning Late Ch'in and reformed Han units for ther next decade(hey, crossbow chariots! woohoo!).

Pikenier

04-27-2010, 07:58

Oh, 2 or 3 more Celtic factions to come, depending on who you count as Celts.

Let me guess - the two factions needed are:
A Celtiberian tribe in Hispania
and the Scordisci in Illyria.

The possible third (if the team wants that many celts) could be Belgae to rival the Pritanoi

Drunk Clown

04-28-2010, 14:36

Ofcourse not, it's none of those factions which will make it.

One word: Frisii

Horatius Flaccus

04-28-2010, 22:20

No. :inquisitive:

Damn those nationalist Frisians :clown:

Drunk Clown

05-01-2010, 14:54

No. :inquisitive:

Damn those nationalist Frisians :clown:

Face it, we're the greatest (and the largest [in length]) people in the world. A lot of people in denmark and england have frisian roots.... One day we wil rule the world :clown:

Macilrille

05-01-2010, 16:07

Not "a lot" in Denmark mate, only the people of Ditmarsken, which is less than 3% of the population. There were intimate contacts throughout the Iron Age, Viking Age and ... well in fact till at least the 18th century, and in fact still. One of my partners on the Sweboz team for EB II is a Dutchie whose brother has a farm 80-ish Km from where I live in Denmark and a Viking re-enactment friend of mine is Ruud Conijn who married a Danish woman and moved here...
I also find that Danes have as much in common with the Dutch as with Norwegians and Swedes. But much in common does not equal lots of Danes being Frisians.

BTW, notice that the two countries in NW Europe with the lowest average altitudes (Holland and Denmark) are the tallest people in Europe on average; simple survival, when the water comes all the small ones will drown, us tallies can still breathe ;-)

Hax

05-01-2010, 16:39

Face it, we're the greatest (and the largest [in length]) people in the world. A lot of people in denmark and england have frisian roots.... One day we wil rule the world

No. There's a reason why the Dutch hardly ever go into freaky deaky Frisia. No, go back to milking your cows :clown:

oudysseos

05-01-2010, 17:00

Face it, we're the greatest (and the largest [in length]) people in the world. A lot of people in denmark and england have frisian roots.... One day we wil rule the world :clown:

Isn't Dieter Bohlen a Frieser? 'Nuff said, I think.

Drunk Clown

05-01-2010, 18:35

Isn't Dieter Bohlen a Frieser? 'Nuff said, I think.

No.

Now, go back to milking your cows :clown:
Now, you go back suffocating from fine particles. :clown:

Ludens

05-01-2010, 20:09

:focus:

ziegenpeter

05-02-2010, 13:07

Isn't Dieter Bohlen a Frieser? 'Nuff said, I think.

Ach du meine Güte! You know this guy in Ireland? Or have you been to Germany? (You do speak german right?)

:focus:

:sweatdrop: uhhhm yeah right, what's going on with errr... new factions...?

Macilrille

05-03-2010, 17:42

Continue guessing. best if the guesses/arguments are supported by good reasons ;-)

anubis88

05-03-2010, 19:58

What's even the point of guessing at this point? I mean, the team has said that they've decided which factions will be in, and we definetly listed all of them, we just don't know which are the right ones... So quit teasing and give us a hint! :)

Mediolanicus

05-03-2010, 20:10

Well, you've answered your own question. The bastard's just teasing us! :p

We love the erudite Macilrille, don't you throw that away by teasing! give us a hint instead and we'll love you even more!

Hax

05-03-2010, 23:12

You want a hint? Fine.

One of the new factions existed in 272 BC, somewhere between modern Tajikistan and Portugal.

bobbin

05-04-2010, 00:47

Brennus

05-04-2010, 09:04

There is an occultus sig still unguessed you know.

The Klingon Empire.

Apázlinemjó

05-04-2010, 10:19

There is an occultus sig still unguessed you know.

Unguessed occultus sig, who has it?

anubis88

05-04-2010, 11:13

There is an occultus sig still unguessed you know.

That occultus sig is so occultus, that unfortunatly your probably the only one who could've guessed it ( like the Bosporus)

Brennus

05-04-2010, 11:40

Is the Occultus sig Bobbin's sig?

bobbin

05-04-2010, 12:15

No thats just one of the member sigs, the occultus one I'm talking about is this one currently sported by Moros.

https://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5392/logosecret6gi7.jpg

That occultus sig is so occultus, that unfortunatly your probably the only one who could've guessed it ( like the Bosporus)

That was really just a fluke and I was way way off the mark concerning the one above.

Mediolanicus

05-04-2010, 14:55

Horatius Flaccus

05-04-2010, 15:50

Maybe the Minaeans? But that would probably put them to close to the Sabaeans.

MINAEANS

The Minaean kingdom (Maʿīn) lasted from the 4th to the 2nd century bc and was predominantly a trading organization that, for the period, monopolized the trade routes. References to Maʿīn occur earlier in Sabaean texts, where they seem to be loosely associated with the ʿĀmir people to the north of the Minaean capital of Qarnaw (now Maʿīn), which is at the eastern end of the Wadi al-Jawf and on the western border of the Ṣayhad sands. The Minaeans had a second town surrounded by impressive and still extant walls at Yathill, a short distance south of Qarnaw; and they had trading establishments at Dedān and in the Qatabānian and Hadramite capitals. The overwhelming majority of Minaean inscriptions come from Qarnaw, Yathill, and Dedān, and there is virtually no evidence of territorial possessions apart from the immediate vicinities of these three centres, which have more the aspect of typical “caravan cities.” A thin scattering of Minaean inscriptions has been found in places just outside Arabia, such as Egypt and the island of Delos, all manifestly resulting from far-flung trading activities; and texts from Qarnaw refer to a number of important points on the caravan routes, such as Yathrib (Medina) and Gaza, and also to interruption of trade by one of the several phases of warfare between Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria. An explicit mention of caravans is perhaps found in the expression mʿn mṣrn, interpreted by the scholar Mahmud Ali Ghul as “the Minaean caravaneers.”

Minaean social structure differed from that of the other three, predominantly agricultural peoples. The latter were federations of communities (often termed by modern scholars “tribes,” though they were not genealogically based) grouped under a leading community, with the nation as a whole designated by the name of the hegemonial community, followed by the phrase “and the [associated] communities.” The Minaeans, however, were subdivided into groups of varying size and importance, some quite small, with none exercising a dominating role over the others. Among the other three peoples the office of “elder” (kabīr) was normally filled by the head of one of the associated communities in a national federation. Among the Minaeans, however, the kabīr was a biennially appointed magistrate controlling one of the trading settlements or, in some cases, invested with authority in all of them. Legislative functions were exercised by the king acting together with a council and representatives of all the Minaean social classes. Minaean inscriptions make no mention of wars undertaken by the king or the state; this suggests that Maʿīn may have enjoyed covenants of safe-conduct with their neighbours along the trade routes.

And if they include the Nabataeans, the team probably has to revise the Arabian provinces. Because I believe the capital of the Nabatean kingdom was Petra, and I don't know if Bostra was part of their kingdom at the games start. Not that I am an expert of some sorts. Moros could probably give us the answer.

Mediolanicus

05-04-2010, 16:04

Maybe the Minaeans? But that would probaly put them to close to the Sabaeans.

Your article says they didn't conduct war... That kinda rules them out for a Total War game, doesn't it?

bobbin

05-04-2010, 16:13

The overwhelming majority of Minaean inscriptions come from Qarnaw, Yathill, and Dedān, and there is virtually no evidence of territorial possessions apart from the immediate vicinities of these three centres, which have more the aspect of typical “caravan cities.”

I think that pretty much explains their chances of factionhood.

Horatius Flaccus

05-04-2010, 16:14

Your article says they didn't conduct war... That kinda rules them out for a Total War game, doesn't it?

I think that pretty much explains their chances of factionhood.

Very true. :shame:

Ludens

05-04-2010, 17:18

I always supected a second Arabian faction. So that makes sense when you consider Moros is the specialist on that. I have no idea which Arabian tribe would be powerful enough to warrant inclusion in EB II though.

A year or two ago, Teleklos wrote that there would be two new Punic - culture factions. One is going to be the Massylians. My guess is that the second would be another Numidian faction, but that means little. I also predicted that Epiros would not be in EB1.

WinsingtonIII

05-05-2010, 21:40

A year or two ago, Teleklos wrote that there would be two new Punic - culture factions. One is going to be the Massylians. My guess is that the second would be another Numidian faction, but that means little. I also predicted that Epiros would not be in EB1.

Nonetheless, I agree with you. In the Massylian preview the Masaesylians are consistently mentioned as the other strong tribe of Numidia and as major rivals of the Massylians. I get the feeling that it would be difficult to accurately portray the Massylians as a faction without the Massaesylians being a faction as well. Sort of like the Aedui/Arverni situation, where to have one you need the other, otherwise it's a very inaccurate representation of the situation.

anubis88

05-05-2010, 23:36

Nonetheless, I agree with you. In the Massylian preview the Masaesylians are consistently mentioned as the other strong tribe of Numidia and as major rivals of the Massylians. I get the feeling that it would be difficult to accurately portray the Massylians as a faction without the Massaesylians being a faction as well. Sort of like the Aedui/Arverni situation, where to have one you need the other, otherwise it's a very inaccurate representation of the situation.

I on the other hand believe we might get another Arabian faction ( the culture spot is the same right?), probably Nabatea, or a smaller kingdom somwehere around there... There was one post from Moros (master of mischief, i know) on twitter, where he wrote rise swordsmen of the north, and when asked further questions replied in a way that it may have something to do with a new northern arabian faction...

Phalanx300

05-06-2010, 00:20

The Occultus looks like a bit of a Celtic symbol or Germanic. Though might as well be some Slavic symbol as far as I know.

WinsingtonIII

05-06-2010, 00:56

I on the other hand believe we might get another Arabian faction ( the culture spot is the same right?), probably Nabatea, or a smaller kingdom somwehere around there... There was one post from Moros (master of mischief, i know) on twitter, where he wrote rise swordsmen of the north, and when asked further questions replied in a way that it may have something to do with a new northern arabian faction...

The thing is, I remember hearing that we simply don't know enough about the early Nabataean military to be able to include them as a faction, and I don't believe Palmyra was powerful enough at EB's start date to warrant inclusion. Plus, I really don't think Massylia can be effectively represented without Massaeylia. He could have been referring to a regional Northern Arabian unit that represents a faction that didn't make it...

Moros

05-06-2010, 01:50

Arabia was home to a number of different people nomad and settled who differed in quite a lot of ways, including thier military. That's why in EBII there'll be much more regional units in Arabia, representing the different ways people fought, clothed, looked,... Basically there'll be some northern units representing the Nabataean, Lihyans, Qedar, ... Others tha represent the more Urban north Arabians such as the Gazans, Dedanites, Bostrans,... There'll be units representing the very much persian influenced east coasters, the camel nomads living in the ma'in deserts, there'll be units representing Sabaeans and Qatabanites,...

For the north we indeed have little material. As our main source are simple graffiti. We can see a few basic unit in there but we have no remains or clear/detailled depictions of equipment. So we'll have to use what we know or would logically be around.

The ma'in as a faction would not really work. Thier highdays are over, they weren't that centralized and all, rather more a loose federation which primary interest was trade and little military tradition.

Ibrahim

05-06-2010, 03:09

its a bull! :clown:

(Im referring to Moros' sig).

so it will be a faction that reveres giant bulls! :clown:

One of the new factions existed in 272 BC, somewhere between modern Tajikistan and Portugal.

oh, yeah, that's very helpful..:clown:

or is it a camel?! :clown:

Cyclops

05-06-2010, 03:46

[Bangs head on desk] why won't you tell me?

No thats just one of the member sigs, the occultus one I'm talking about is this one currently sported by Moros...

There is something temptingly sanskrit about the curvy bit above the first "c" in occultis. Or is that just the headbanging talking?

Love that member banner too.

Ibrahim

05-06-2010, 04:49

[Bangs head on desk] why won't you tell me?

There is something temptingly sanskrit about the curvy bit above the first "c" in occultis. Or is that just the headbanging talking?

Love that member banner too.

that just the animal's thigh. I suspect that its either a bull or camel atm.

Ludens

05-06-2010, 09:05

The Occultus looks like a bit of a Celtic symbol or Germanic. Though might as well be some Slavic symbol as far as I know.

As far as I know the Slavs aren't identified until well into AD years. So no, we won't get a Slavonic faction.

I on the other hand believe we might get another Arabian faction ( the culture spot is the same right?), probably Nabatea, or a smaller kingdom somwehere around there...

Saba shares the Semitic (not Punic, sorry) culture group with Carthage. I guess this would have applied to most coastal Arabs, but Moros could correct me on this. BTW, I doubt the people of Numidia were in any way Semitic, but their ruling class would have absorbed a great deal of the Carthaginian culture in the same way as the Roman Empire would later influence the aristocracy of neighbouring tribes.

Phalanx300

05-06-2010, 13:28

Wasn't there a Slavic unit in EB though? Description said something about them living in marshes and being cannibals.

Is probably more likely to me a Celtic faction, or partly Celtic. Like Celtiberians or Belgae perhaps.

Perhaps EB goes for RTW style, meaning the sig is a bull and it are Celtiberians. :clown:

Ludens

05-06-2010, 16:19

Yes, the Voinu (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_eleutheroi_units3.html#blacksea). Their name tag is that of Slavic light spearmen. The description amends that into being the proto-Slavs, and then mentions it's only speculation. I also don't get the impression we know much of these people, despite their impressive archaeological record. The Scyths seem to me to have a better chance at inclusion.

anubis88

05-06-2010, 16:27

Weren't the Scythians ruled out?

Mediolanicus

05-06-2010, 17:24

They were in decline (but so was Epeiros by then).

The Sarmatians were thought more appropriate for the faction slot, since they were stronger.
But now that there are more faction slots...

I'm still guessing a Eastern Arabian faction (around Gerrha or Homna) for Moros' sig though.

bobbin

05-06-2010, 18:13

They were in decline (but so was Epeiros by then).

Hardly, Epeiros was in control of large parts of Macedonia and Thessaly at the start date and was a major power in greece for many years afterwards.

Ludens

05-06-2010, 20:09

Weren't the Scythians ruled out?

What I meant to write was that the Scyths, as unlikely candidate, still have a better chance of inclusion. Sorry for being unclear. I am not sure if they have been ruled out officially, but between the Sarmatians and the Bosporeans it seems unlikely.

Apázlinemjó

05-06-2010, 22:19

What I meant to write was that the Scyths, as unlikely candidate, still have a better chance of inclusion. Sorry for being unclear. I am not sure if they have been ruled out officially, but between the Sarmatians and the Bosporeans it seems unlikely.

The symbol parts in the occultus signature don't look like a steppe one, in my opinion. Maybe you know more than we do? :o

WinsingtonIII

05-07-2010, 00:25

What I meant to write was that the Scyths, as unlikely candidate, still have a better chance of inclusion. Sorry for being unclear. I am not sure if they have been ruled out officially, but between the Sarmatians and the Bosporeans it seems unlikely.

Yeah, I really doubt that we'll see the Scythians. After the Scythian king Ateas died and was defeated in battle by Phillip II of Macedon in 339 BC, the Scythian empire pretty much crumbled apart. They pretty much got kicked out of the Balkans and the Sarmatians gradually began overwhelming them in the East. By 272 BC I don't think they were very unified and don't really make a good faction choice.

Badass Buddha

05-07-2010, 00:38

Hannibal Khan the Great

05-07-2010, 04:38

Yeah, but the Scyths would be total game breakers, what with their AP lightsabers and force lightning.

That makes a lot of sense, considering that the Sauros have their Death Star bodyguards:skull:

ComteTallaFerroXIV

05-10-2010, 13:51

Doesn't the occultus simbol look like that ancient indus valley civilization's stamp of an ox?

Mediolanicus

05-10-2010, 14:33

Unlikely, unless they found a way to get another culture slot and add like 50 provinces...

Phalanx300

05-10-2010, 15:57

Maybe a reference to Spain. So Celtiberians :clown:.

gamegeek2

05-11-2010, 04:09

Yeah, but the Scyths would be total game breakers, what with their AP lightsabers and force lightning.

LOL

oudysseos

05-11-2010, 13:43

Scythian fanboys should keep in mind that the Bosphoran Kingdom, though thoroughly Greek, was heavily influenced by Scythian art and military styles.

Mithridates VI Eupator

05-11-2010, 14:42

Unlikely, unless they found a way to get another culture slot and add like 50 provinces...

The Indus civilization, as the name implies, would primarily have been located in the Indus valley, which is on our map, with a slight expansion towards modern Malwa and, possibly, central asia, so they would not need too many new provinces to be included.
What they would need, however, would be a very big, working time machine...

moonburn

05-11-2010, 20:43

in 272bc the kingdom of akosha already rulled over most of india except the tamil regions (wich i´m not sure if it included sri lanka or not)

Berg-i-dum

05-14-2010, 00:21

Still waiting for them (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_Furgf5opw), you know :sweatdrop:

Keep the good work, guys.

Brennus

05-17-2010, 17:26

Its gonna be the Arevaci, my druid told me so.

What's the status of Pergamon? Confirmed or ruled out?

Well I am banking strongly on either the Arevaci, the Marcomanni or the Suessiones, if one of those doesn't make the final cast I will eat my torque.

Horatius Flaccus

05-17-2010, 17:39

What's the status of Pergamon? Confirmed or ruled out?

Confirmed and previewed.

anubis88

05-17-2010, 17:42

Well I am banking strongly on either the Arevaci, the Marcomanni or the Suessiones, if one of those doesn't make the final cast I will eat my torque.

I think the first mention of the Marcomanni was during the very late republic, perhaps even empire.... So i would definetly rule them out

echolot

05-18-2010, 09:31

Occultus Faction are picts

Klearchos

05-18-2010, 09:36

Occultus Faction are picts

Nah, I remember someone ( I think oudysseos) saying that there will be no other factions on Britain. Somewhere in the Pritanoi preview I think.

Mediolanicus

05-18-2010, 11:07

Occultus Faction are picts

Picts in 270 BC...? nah...

Brennus

05-18-2010, 22:54

Occultus Faction are picts

I hope that was a joke that didn't quite come out right.

Yes I agree it does look like a Pictish carving, most likely a Pictish bull, but....

Seneca

05-19-2010, 10:12

Could the occultus be a bear, perhaps signifying a germanic tribe? AFAIK the bear was a warrior symbol for them.

Brennus

05-19-2010, 11:54

That's a good thought, there have been several finds of bear skins from Iron Age Germany where it's thought they were worn as ceremonial robes. The animal was skinned but the claws and paws were retained to allow the skin to be worn, its from the claws that archaeologists know they were being worn.

The front of the symbol certainly has dog like qualities but that "hump" (or it could even be a wing) in the middle and the strange tail don't quite fit with it being a bear. However, it could be a composite of two animals, the other end looks slightly like an elk or a moose (in my opinion).

Lvcretivs

05-19-2010, 21:21

Moros' occultus sig seems to bear a - at least to me - puzzling stylistic affinity to...
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7811/thracoscythiancheekguar.jpg
...this decorated 'Thraco-scythian' cheek-guard, dating to the 4th Century BC (Oguz Kurgan, Cherson).

A complete speculative hypothesis, I know ... but possibly a hint towards the Bastarnae ;)

Ludens

05-20-2010, 09:26

A complete speculative hypothesis, I know ... but possibly a hint towards the Bastarnae ;)

Let's hope :yes: .

Brennus

05-20-2010, 12:33

There is certainly space in that part of the map. Would be an interesting faction, combining Celtic, Germanic and Steppe Iranian qualities. How many slots are left to confirm?

bobbin

05-20-2010, 20:43

Six.

Horatius Flaccus

05-20-2010, 20:55

So that does mean there are going to be 10 extra factions?

bobbin

05-20-2010, 22:54

How many slots are left to confirm?

Slots might not equal factions.

Brennus

05-20-2010, 23:38

Slots might not equal factions.

bobbin are you suggesting that slots might be used for AI factions instead, perhaps with the Cimbri and Teutones emerging and using the crusades feature to amass a very large force at some point in the game if the right conditions are met? Or is that a load of Casse pony poo I am talking?

What could slots be used for then?

anubis88

05-20-2010, 23:49

Cimbri and Teutones won't emerge. Don't even go there :)... There was a long debate about this over at TWC

Brennus

05-21-2010, 00:22

Cimbri and Teutones won't emerge. Don't even go there :)... There was a long debate about this over at TWC

Thanks for the warning :)

J.R.M

05-21-2010, 00:26

Maybe 1 of those slots its the rebel faction?
If not then im pretty much clueless.

Ludens

05-21-2010, 08:11

Maybe 1 of those slots its the rebel faction?
If not then im pretty much clueless.

No, the rebel faction is already included. The team has hinted that it might reserve one of the faction slots for scripting purposes. However, all factions will be playable.

Horatius Flaccus

05-21-2010, 13:40

Well, I think Bobbin's commen pretty much confirms that there are going to be another 6 new factions. What he did afterwards was just damage control. :yes:

Then again, the team likes to be as vague as possible.

Macilrille

05-21-2010, 14:01

We do?
Oh I must remember that ;-)

J.R.M

05-21-2010, 19:50

:dizzy2:

Brennus

05-21-2010, 20:42

How about the Maurya Empire :jester:

On a serious note wasn't there mention that the next faction(s) would be Celtic or Celtic influenced? This would fit with the Arevaci and the Bastarnae (if they are actually being considered). As for the rest of the slots.....

Power2the1

05-25-2010, 11:11

Something to keep in mind is that while faction slots exist, if there are not enough FC's to bring have a faction brought to life, then we may very well leave unused slots open.

zurab

05-25-2010, 15:10

bobbin

05-25-2010, 16:08

8. Spartacus slaves revolt - emerging faction

We not having emerging factions, it wastes a faction slot as you can't play as them.

Mediolanicus

05-25-2010, 16:10

Well If we use the logic... who can be these new mistycal factions and what people they present? I IMO the are:

1. Bithynia (Asia Minor -thrakians and greeks, rival to Pont),
2. Caucasian Iberia ( Georgian tribes-kartvelebi, right name is Kartli - enemy#1 for Hayastan)
3. Caucasian Albania ( dagestan-lezgin tribes and some HUNNU tribes, as a Alban-Arran tribes union)
4. Hispanian state - celtberians
5. A German tribe
6. Palmirena (Palmirena, in Syria, before Zenobia)
7. A celtic tribe
8. Spartacus slaves revolt - emerging faction

1. Nah, ruled out I think officially by the team. Besides, you've got Pergamon there. And you'd have to take the Bythinians together with the Galatians to form a meaningful enemy.
2 and 3. One of them could work. Perhaps the Kartali. Although I doubt their expansionism.
4. "State" is a bit of an anachronism, but I think a tribe in Spain (probably Celt-Iberian) will be in.
5. Historical sources are a bit sketchy at best here. Perhaps the Bastarnae would do.
6. Palmyra lacks sources for this time and expansionism. Perhaps Moros will come up with a better candidate near the Arabian Peninsular.
7. Another pure Celtic tribe is out I think (Pritanoi, Aedui, Arverni, Boii), but Celt-Iberians (Arevaci?) are possible, so are Illyro-Celtics (Scordisci), Germano-Celtics (a Belgae tribe),...
8. A joke is always the best way to close.

We not having emerging factions, it wastes a faction slot as you can't play as them.
So Spartacus will be a starting Italian faction in EB II?

Apázlinemjó

05-25-2010, 16:38

So Spartacus will be a starting Italian faction in EB II?

I can't wait the gladiator units, yeaaahh. :kid:

zurab

05-26-2010, 10:04

So Spartacus will be a starting Italian faction in EB II?

That would be great but I doubt it as Spartacus revolted in 73 BC if I remember right

Mediolanicus

05-26-2010, 11:04

That would be great but I doubt it as Spartacus revolted in 73 BC if I remember right

Somehow I begin to doubt you meant it as a joke... You weren't serious, were you?

Unless you can prove that the situation in Rome in 272 BC automatically leads to a slave called Spartacus leading a revolt in 73 BC they will never be in...

zurab

05-26-2010, 14:41

Somehow I begin to doubt you meant it as a joke... You weren't serious, were you?

Unless you can prove that the situation in Rome in 272 BC automatically leads to a slave called Spartacus leading a revolt in 73 BC they will never be in...

Well actually I meant it as en emerging faction from the begining, then I found out that no emerging factions will be in. In my opinion an emerging Spartacus faction (using Mongol slot) would be great but since devs decided not to use any emerging factions...

Mediolanicus

05-26-2010, 14:46

Well actually I meant it as en emerging faction from the begining, then I found out that no emerging factions will be in. In my opinion an emerging Spartacus faction (using Mongol slot) would be great but since devs decided not to use any emerging factions...

Even if they did use emerging factions there would be no reason whatsoever to include "Spartacus". Unless you make a mod which has historical expansion, all the historical characters at the right time and so on. But that would be history on rails with no choices to be made by the player.

Right now the only things "emerging" are things that are plausible under certain parameters (like the Marian reforms). It would be absolutely absurd to have some dude appearing in Italy in 73 BC, who always is called Spartacus for some reason or the other, whether or not the Italian peninsular is still under Roman control.

Or do you have prove that in 272 BC it was already certain that 200 years later, this would happen; whatever would happen in those 200 ears.

What I would like to see, and I doubt that is possible with the engine, is that the chance of the spawning of rebels increases when you build lots of latifundae or the like.

Hannibal Khan the Great

05-26-2010, 22:21

What I would like to see, and I doubt that is possible with the engine, is that the chance of the spawning of rebels increases when you build lots of latifundae or the like.

I think that law penalties already increase rebel spawn, so the latifundiae could be given those penalties.

Mediolanicus

05-26-2010, 23:08

I think that law penalties already increase rebel spawn, so the latifundiae could be given those penalties.

Don't they just lower public order?

If so then it increases the chance your city revolts. But I believe spawing rebel armies are probably better to represent an army of runaway slaves than a whole city that revolts (that's more of a civil revolt).

Hannibal Khan the Great

05-27-2010, 02:07

Don't they just lower public order?

If so then it increases the chance your city revolts. But I believe spawing rebel armies are probably better to represent an army of runaway slaves than a whole city that revolts (that's more of a civil revolt).

IIRC the law penalties also increase brigands, e.t.c. in the countryside.

Divinephyton

07-05-2010, 13:35

5. Historical sources are a bit sketchy at best here. Perhaps the Bastarnae would do.

The Bastarnae might be a fun idea, considering their strategic location for the game and the mix of cultures usually ascribed to them (as a tribe in writings of authors) and that location (archeologically) and their involvement with Philip of Macedon's war, however I believe their only realistic use in the game would be as an emerging faction à la Mongols, which has been ruled out...
I hope and am quite confident they won't appear as a faction

paullus

07-05-2010, 16:32

actually they're a more reasonable selection than you may think.

athanaric

07-05-2010, 22:15

seienchin

07-05-2010, 23:30

actually they're a more reasonable selection than you may think.

Really?^^ Sounds like a conformation of a new faction to me. :)
Still where do you get any credible informations on them?

Moros

07-06-2010, 01:00

bobbin

07-06-2010, 02:19

Complete lifesaver that was.

Cyclops

07-06-2010, 04:22

Ah the excellent but difficult to find monograph: 'A comprehenisve overview of theoretical history and social structures of the East germans and their historical accurate representations in game mechanics' by Prof. Sharon Aedi.

Was that vol 2 in the series "FAQ TL/DR"? IIRC Vol 1 "Its All Greek To Me: Condensing East and West Greek Cultures to Allow for a Mauryan Slot" was great and Vol 3 is out next month (tentatively titled "Spam Wins: the Return of LS").

anubis88

07-06-2010, 09:22

seienchin

07-06-2010, 10:42

paullus

07-06-2010, 18:11

Quite! With Aedi's invaluable help, producing an accurate and interesting Bastarnae faction isn't all the difficult. Otherwise, we would have faced considerable encumbrances: ethnography, socio-political structure, geographic placement and mobility, and military organization. But thanks to Aedi those foundational questions have been answered in an accessible, well-illustrated manuscript from Phoenix University Press.

Nerva

07-27-2010, 23:24

I've just finished doing a proposal for scordisci if any one wants to take a look is here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=376188
Nerva

Chelovyek

08-10-2010, 11:02

Hullo! New here. I like the idea above!

I was wondering if the Bosporan Kingdom would be a good idea for the Crimea, which was a bit of an empty area in EB. It's an Hellenic culture that (after a quick browse on the internet) was around at 272 BC, and was still going strong for a long time after, becoming involved with Pontus and the Romans later on. Sorry if it's already been discussed, but I'm not going to trawl through all 49 pages to see.

Hax

08-10-2010, 11:06

I was wondering if the Bosporan Kingdom would be a good idea for the Crimea, which was a bit of an empty area in EB. It's an Hellenic culture that (after a quick browse on the internet) was around at 272 BC, and was still going strong for a long time after, becoming involved with Pontus and the Romans later on. Sorry if it's already been discussed, but I'm not going to trawl through all 49 pages to see.

The Bosporan Kingdom was already confirmed.

Morte66

08-10-2010, 15:27

The Occultus faction symbol is nagging at me. I think it's some sort of Ox/Bison/similar, and it's got a hump. AFAIK classical bovines don't have humps; I think they were bred in later for convenient attachment of harness.

If it's actually a realistic depiction, the only suitable critter I can think of is a Yak. I guess that could put it on the eastern edge of the map in the Tarim Basin, between Bactria and the Saka. That's the region Xiyu with the town Sulek, and the faction would be the Tuhara/Tocharians. But it's hard to imagine them being a faction -- they don't seem to have amounted to anything before the Yuezhi rolled over them, and AFAICT the historical record of them is thin.

So that leaves me looking for imaginary or unfamiliar humped bovines.

I suppose there's a bull thing associated with Crete, but all the pottery and so on I've seen had no humps. But I think Crete's main contribution in this timeframe was being conquered.

Bulls are of course big in Spain, and a bull would make a fine faction symbol for a faction around there. ISTM some sort of Iberian/Celtiberian faction is likely for EB2 -- they were powerful, historically quite significant, and they'd fill a glaring hole in the map. But I'm having trouble linking them to that picture. Maybe there's some humped bull from art or legend that would fit the bill? Does anyone have any ideas?

Or maybe my eyes (and contrast manipulation in Photoshop) are deceiving me and it's something else altogether.

Brennus

08-10-2010, 17:30

"Does anyone have any ideas?" Well...... https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?122883-An-Occultus-Faction-possibly-worked-out

With regards to many suggestions for a new faction (I know it's been said many a time and probably won't happen but still) UP THE BELGAE!

Chelovyek

08-10-2010, 18:21

The Bosporan Kingdom was already confirmed.

Oh, yay! Whoops. Ha, well, I did say I hadn't looked through everything. I look foward to playing them!

Mediolanicus

08-10-2010, 20:00

Oh, yay! Whoops. Ha, well, I did say I hadn't looked through everything. I look foward to playing them!

It's in the FAQ and in the previews (all the information is there).

Morte66

08-10-2010, 20:58

UP THE BELGAE!

I remember a scene from a book I read as a teenager, about 30 years ago. It featured two youths, one a Roman and one a Celt, who got in a street fight and yelled "Up Caractacus! Up the Belgae!" or something like that. I have no idea what the book was anymore, maybe Rosemary Sutcliffe or Mary Renault, but the scene sticks with me.

Now I'm trying to remember the book. It's almost as annoying as trying to decode the occultus symbol.

Damn you, Brennus.

Brennus

08-10-2010, 21:07

I remember a scene from a book I read as a teenager, about 30 years ago. It featured two youths, one a Roman and one a Celt, who got in a street fight and yelled "Up Caractacus! Up the Belgae!" or something like that. I have no idea what the book was anymore, maybe Rosemary Sutcliffe or Mary Renault, but the scene sticks with me.

Now I'm trying to remember the book. It's almost as annoying as trying to decode the occultus symbol.

Damn you, Brennus.

lol. If I may be irritating and possibly boring Caractacus unlikely to have been Belgic (sorry to spoil your treasured memories).

Genava

08-10-2010, 22:58

Lvcretivs

08-11-2010, 00:36

Meroitic/Nubian Kingdom? It's seems to me like a dromedary...
IIRC already negated by the EB Team - the hard-coded culture limit (7) effectively prevents inclusion of an Meroitic/Nubian faction, which can't really be adequately represented without an 8th 'meroitic' culture slot (Character portraits, strat map models,...). Furthermore there were apparently issues concerning the very limited unit roster...

Moros

08-11-2010, 01:03

Meroitic/Nubian Kingdom? It's seems to me like a dromedary...
It's not a dromedary. Nor were they used in warfare or much common in these regions...

Kikaz

08-11-2010, 04:41

It's not a dromedary. Nor were they used in warfare or much common in these regions...

I think I see a camel in your sig

bobbin

08-11-2010, 09:48

Its not a camel.

Genava

08-11-2010, 11:17

Then, it's a cow or a horse I think...
Like that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AppolodotusCoin.JPG
Maybe a Indo-Scythian or a Indo-Greek kingdom (not Bactria)... but I don't think because of the limit map, these factions would need of India.
I stay in the area of Ethiopia and Arabia, maybe with a neighbour of Saba Kingdom. It's maybe a humped cow, existing in Africa too.
http://www.fao.org/wairdocs/ilri/x5442e/x5442e04.gif

Edit: Maybe the Arab Kingdom around Gerrha. It's hard to say (for me) if they are a culture similar with the Saba.
http://nabataea.net/hagar.html

anubis88

08-11-2010, 14:16

I think it's a faction symbol of some kind :clown:

athanaric

08-11-2010, 19:03

I remember a scene from a book I read as a teenager, about 30 years ago. It featured two youths, one a Roman and one a Celt, who got in a street fight and yelled "Up Caractacus! Up the Belgae!" or something like that. I have no idea what the book was anymore, maybe Rosemary Sutcliffe or Mary Renault, but the scene sticks with me.

Now I'm trying to remember the book. It's almost as annoying as trying to decode the occultus symbol.
I don't remember a scene like this from a Sutcliff book. Then again, it's been ten years since I read them...

Moros

08-11-2010, 19:25

Edit: Maybe the Arab Kingdom around Gerrha. It's hard to say (for me) if they are a culture similar with the Saba.
http://nabataea.net/hagar.html
We don't even know where Gerrha was...

Genava

08-11-2010, 19:39

We don't even know where Gerrha was...
Ah, okay. Then, the hidden faction is a yemenite kingdom (like Saba)?
Minaeans, Qatabanians or Hadramites...

I think it's a good possibility, the Sabaean culture slot is for only one faction, why is not there a second faction?

Kikaz

08-11-2010, 20:22

That could totally be a camel https://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5392/logosecret6gi7.jpg

Brennus

08-11-2010, 21:03

That could totally be a camel https://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5392/logosecret6gi7.jpg

LOL! I must admit I am still not convinced but that was a wonderful way to argue your point. Bravo!

Rahl

08-11-2010, 21:24

I think it's a good possibility, the Sabaean culture slot is for only one faction, why is not there a second faction?
The Saba use the semitic-culture-slot like the Qarthadastim.
Maybe I'm wrong but didn't a EB-member wrote that there won't be another arabian faction?

Genava

08-11-2010, 21:25

That could totally be a camel
Bobbin said NO!

The Saba use the semitic-culture-slot like the Qarthadastim.
Yes, you're right. It's seems strange, the classification is based on the language class?

Edit: I know the Phoenician are a semitic people, but I thought they are different in the EB-Timeframe with the Sabaeans.

paullus

08-11-2010, 22:00

You have to make a few allowances to get all the culture slots figured out.

Kikaz, that's hilarious btw. Nice tracing.

Ibrahim

08-11-2010, 22:04

That could totally be a camel https://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5392/logosecret6gi7.jpg

you best not pursue a science major :clown:

anubis88

08-11-2010, 22:45

That could totally be a camel https://img571.imageshack.us/img571/5392/logosecret6gi7.jpg

It looks so... REAL! :D

B-Wing

08-12-2010, 00:18

I believe it's a camel now, too. Unless bobbin can provide evidence to the contrary. :smash:

abou

08-12-2010, 00:30

I always thought it was a tapir.

athanaric

08-12-2010, 01:23

It's the beast with two backs...

stratigos vasilios

08-12-2010, 07:23

If you throw it into paint and inverse colours does it make it easier to trace?...

tarchnal

08-12-2010, 11:14

Longtime unregistered lurker here with some faction ideas... Just can't leave it well enough alone.

The Belgae are mentioned often, and I doubt that they would be left out. They could also be some sort of counter to the new Pritanoi faction regarding the British Isles - afaik there were Belgae in modern southern England at the time (or later anyway). The Nervii or the Bellovaci are likely to be in to represent the Belgae, as their territories are already in as named provinces in EB1. More so the Nervii than the Bellovaci as the former would be more isolated from the Arverni/Aedui than the latter.

Ardiaei Illyrians are also mentioned often, and not without reason. They would reach their zenith not long into the game's timeframe, after which they ended up under Roman influence. If an Illyrian tribe doesn't make it in I doubt that the Balkans would be left without a new faction, so I also slam the celts in Tylis in there, those who were lead by Commontorios (?) following the invasion of Macedonia and Greece. Only one or the other however.

Another faction in Iberia is likely I believe, the area is quite empty and a new faction here might stop the Lusotani powerhouse from emerging every game following Carthage's departure. The Vaccaei (Pallantia) or the Arevaci (Numantia) are probably in hte spotlight here; both were prominent tribes during Rome's adventures in the region, probably Arevaci moreso than the Vaccaei. The Cantabri has been on the wall, but what did they do at this time?

The Bastarnae are popular - they might even have been confirmed? - and would just like the Boii contend with the Sweboz for central and eastern Europe.

The Bosporan Greeks (already confirmed?) would end up in a spot that is currently empty and just keeps rebelling to the KH over and over. The Spartocid dynasty were in power already at this time, were they not? Would be a nice competitor with the Sauros aswell.

Some other faction in the Caucasus to fight Hayasdan abit could be useful. Some Ibero tribe (Colchis, Kartli?) or Media Atropatene could perhaps fill the void, but the question is if the region wouldn't become too crowded.

Then I am thinking of an Arabian faction, specifically the Nabateans or Hadramaut. Ma'in would perhaps be a possibility aswell, but their avenues of expansion would be very limited with the Sab'yn blocking them in the south and the Ptollies and SE in the north. Might argue that the Nabateans would be in the same position, but atleast they won't immediately border another one-province faction and having small possibilities to expand. Hadramaut could focus on expansion towards modern Oman, and Saba in the other direction.

As a last one, though this really is an 8th idea, an eastern faction could be necesary for balancing purposes. With 9 new factions spread out across the world, the area running on the other side of the Caspian Sea, the eastern steppe, Iran and India would only be split between 4 factions. Not nearly as crowded as the rest. But I just can't figure out a regional power worth to add beyond some AS or Mauryan satrap, and none of the former rose to prominence and the latter would likely demand a culture slot, plus that I have no clue if any Mauryan governors revolted. The Mauryan Empire itself is also a no-no.

Those are my 2 (8?) cents.

paullus

08-12-2010, 13:36

Hi tarchnal! Welcome to posting, and those are nice 2 cents! We've already confirmed four factions I think: the Bosporans are one, plus Pergamon, Numidia, and the Boii.

Just curious, but on what grounds do you prefer the Tylis kingdom over the Scordisci? And similarly, why the Ardiaei over the Dardanians?

tarchnal

08-12-2010, 14:28

Hi tarchnal! Welcome to posting, and those are nice 2 cents! We've already confirmed four factions I think: the Bosporans are one, plus Pergamon, Numidia, and the Boii.
Thanks!

Just curious, but on what grounds do you prefer the Tylis kingdom over the Scordisci? And similarly, why the Ardiaei over the Dardanians?
On my prefered factions, I should perhaps start by saying that I am no historian. It is a hobby of mine to read whatever I find, but what I find might not be the best sources. On the Scordisci, I believe that with the Getai to their east and the Boii to their west they would be in a very tight position with few directions to expand, so solely from a gameplay purpose I would prefer some other faction in the Balkan area. Tylis would also be in a tight spot, but Thrace is mostly up for grabs still and they would only border Makedonia from the beginning, whereas the Scordisci would border both the Getai and the Boii (with the city of Vindobona). However if the map changes in the area and borders, settlements, amount of provinces etc is tweaked the Scordisci might have a place there. But what do I know? :)

On the Ardiaei, they were to my knowledge the most prominent of the Illyrian tribes. The Dardanians were either on par or atleast a close second, but now that you mention them they could probably fill the spot equally well. Also, wouldn't the inclusion of the Ardiaei demand Scodra as their capital, which should be if not in atleast at the border of the Illyria Hellenike province, which belongs to Epirus? Might become too crowded city-wise with them there, so the Dardanians are probably better.

Brave Brave Sir Robin

08-12-2010, 14:43

Could it be a stylized version of this Nerviian coin?
http://www.livius.org/a/2/romanempire/coin_nervians_s.JPG

Another example of Belgae coinage, this one of the Atuatuci
http://www.tartanplace.com/tartanillus/coins/Atuatuci.gif

Moros

08-12-2010, 15:02

I gues it could. But then again you can see alot in it, if you use some imagination.

Brave Brave Sir Robin

08-12-2010, 15:19

I'll take that as a yes then:smash:

Chelovyek

08-12-2010, 15:36

Not forgetting the Boii.

Regarding Tarchnal, have you thought about the city of Kyrene? Some other people mentioned that it would act as good buffer between the Carthiginians and the Ptolemaioi, and it declared its independence in 276 BC. That said, the newly-declared Massylii would act as that buffer, surely? Good suggestions, though.

Baconpølse

08-12-2010, 16:10

What about Khwarezm? It seems that it was an independent kingdom around 272 BC. It would help fill out the eastern portions of the map nicely, though I dont know if there is enough information on them to recreate them as a faction.

Ludens

08-12-2010, 18:36

Regarding Tarchnal, have you thought about the city of Kyrene? Some other people mentioned that it would act as good buffer between the Carthiginians and the Ptolemaioi, and it declared its independence in 276 BC.

Kyrene is unlikely because it wasn't an empire on it's own: it was ruled by a rebellious Ptolemean. In the unlikely event that Magas conquered Egypt and held of his Seleucid "allies", he would simply have resumed the Ptolemean Empire. Also, faction slots are too valuable to use them for "buffers". Beefing up the rebels can work just as well for that.

tarchnal, welcome to the .Org!

I have a few comments about your faction selection. IIRC the Pritanoi review says there is no evidence for a strong Belgaen presence in southern England until a century or so after the start of the mod. And, again, they are not going to be added just to annoy one faction. The continental Belgae were seriously considered for EB1, so they may be included this time. On the other hand, don't we have enough Celts already?

As for a new Iberian faction, I'd say this is bound to be, probably in the form of the Arevacci. They have already been included in EB1 in the form of Moskon and his zombie army. The Spartocid Kingdom has been confirmed; the Basternae, on the other hand, have been emphatically denied by a team member. I still hope, though... There also have been hints of a new Eastern faction and another Semitic culture faction, although I have no idea were to place these.

Baconpølse, welcome as well. Could you provide some more info about the Chorasian/Khwarezm kingdom? I don't think we have much evidence for that corner of the map.

Baconpølse

08-12-2010, 21:46

Thanks Ludens;)

I dont know too much about the Chorasmian kingdom really. Just came across a reference to it while reading about Alexander the great. Though from a quick search on google it seems like it must have been fairly prosperous at the time of EB. Apparantly archeology shows that a large stretches of canals, as well as a large number of settlements and fortifications, were built before and around the time of EB. Dont know if there is enough info to make a viable faction, but I just wanted to throw out a more unusual guess;)

Here is some info I found on the web (Cant say that I know anything about the quality of the sources though):
http://www.iranica.com/articles/chorasmia-i
This one has some nice pictures of historical sites, though only some of them are from the relevant timeframe:
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/khvarizem/page2.htm
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/khvarizem/page3.htm
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/khvarizem/page4.htm

Cyclops

08-13-2010, 08:07

helpful links

Interesting links, I love that stuff. The main points here seem to be:

The post-Achaemenid interlude and the nomad invasions. In the 4th-3rd centuries b.c.e. Chorasmia experienced a great economic and cultural upsurge, possibly owing to liberation from the tax burden imposed by the Achaemenids...labeled, rather inappropriately, the “Kang-qu” culture

and

the “Chorasmian era” began in the 30s (Livshits, 1984, p. 253) or 40s (Vaĭnberg,1977, p. 79) of the 1st century c.e

I'm guessing at the EB start date there's not a "Chorasmian kingdom". The territory overlaps with Parthia so its probably a part of that polity at game's start.

A Chorasmian kingdom emerges amid the turmoil of the Saka influx that throws down the Parthians and pushes the Baktrians over the Hindu Kush and out of history. I guess there's a case for a Chorasmian kingdom in a "late period" EB mod, but thats a not on offer afaik.

Genava

08-13-2010, 09:05

Arrian mentioned the arrival of Pharasmanes, king of the Chorasmians, with a cavalry force of some fifteen hundred men. Pharasmanes offered to guide Alexander to the Black Sea should he wish to campaign there; though the conqueror declined the offer, he did conclude a “friendly pact” with Pharasmanes. Quintus Curtius gave the name of the Chorasmian king as Phrataphernes, who joined with the Massagetai and Dacians in sending people to assure the king of his submission. From this account it appears that he did not personally travel to Alexander’s headquarters and incidentally that he enjoyed a certain degree of hegemony over his nomadic neighbors. In fact Pharasmanes was Phrataphernes’s son (Pauly-Wissowa XX/1, col. 739, s.v. Phradasmanes), probably designated king by Arrian in order to glorify Alexander.

The entire complex was destroyed by fire in the 2nd century b.c.e., along with many other Chorasmian strongholds and settlements, probably during the mass migration of steppe tribes that is known to have caused the collapse of the Greco-Bactrian state and to have brought Parthia to the brink of destruction.

And here: http://www.livius.org/cg-cm/chorasmia/chorasmia.html

Not much later, the Chorasmian kings started to mint coins, which were inspired by the coins of the Seleucid kings and -after c.240- Bactria, which was ruled by people who claimed Greek descent. The tombs of the kings of this period have been found at Koj-Krylgan-Kala.

Ludens

08-13-2010, 09:52

Interesting links, I love that stuff. The main points here seem to be:

The post-Achaemenid interlude and the nomad invasions. In the 4th-3rd centuries b.c.e. Chorasmia experienced a great economic and cultural upsurge, possibly owing to liberation from the tax burden imposed by the Achaemenids...labeled, rather inappropriately, the “Kang-qu” culture
(...)

A Chorasmian kingdom emerges amid the turmoil of the Saka influx that throws down the Parthians and pushes the Baktrians over the Hindu Kush and out of history. I guess there's a case for a Chorasmian kingdom in a "late period" EB mod, but thats a not on offer afaik.

There is actually an old post by Teleklos over at the TWC mentioning the Kangju (Kang-qu?) as one of the alternatives considered for the faction slot that eventually went to the Saba. The Wikipedia article is very vague, though, so I wasn't sure what to make of it.

Lvcretivs

08-13-2010, 12:20

Concerning Khwarezm/Chorasmia - and ancient Central Asia in general - don't forget the UNESCO-funded History of Civilizations of Central Asia II: The development of sedentary and nomadic civilizations, 700 B.C. to A.D. 250 (online available in it's entirety at http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0010/001057/105703eo.pdf) - especially the interesting and informative chapter about 'States in North-Western Central Asia'.

Genava

08-13-2010, 13:41

BIG THANKS Lvcretivs!

I think Chorasmia would be great, it's a powerful kingdom until ~100 BC. But there is a lack of informations about political and civil structures and warfare.

edit: I find this reference: http://openlibrary.org/works/OL12947136W/The_military_architecture_of_ancient_Chorasmia

MeinPanzer

08-13-2010, 20:06

Chorasmia definitely gets my vote. There's actually quite a bit of info out there concerning the organization and broader history of the kingdom during the EB timeframe (on par with a lot of other pre/proto-historical factions already in EB). We have a few names of kings (one was found inscribed on a silver vessel from a Sargat grave in northern Central Asia which dates to the early 3rd c. BC, for instance), and some interesting writing on ostraka already from the end of the EB timeframe which tells us, for instance, that they had slaves. In addition, we know quite a bit about the army of the Chorasmians thanks to figural representations from pottery and some actual burials (i.e. Chirik Rabat) and stray finds. A number of well-excavated fortified centres and temple complexes have been found, and there is evidence of widespread agriculture with canal systems as already mentioned. They would in essence be a settled Saka faction, with Saka units but fortified centres, and so they could be an interesting faction to play to counter the Parthians or Saka.

olly

08-14-2010, 10:59

Mediolanicus

08-14-2010, 14:05

Moros

08-14-2010, 15:43

Yup Pergamon, Bosphorans, Boii, Numidia and Basternae have already been confirmed.

stratigos vasilios

08-14-2010, 16:06

Yup Pergamon, Bosphorans, Boii, Numidia and Basternae have already been confirmed.

Basternae? :inquisitive:

I don't think they have been confirmed or denied in the thread?

: I would love to see the Bastarnae, but their inclusion has been denied repeatedly.

but...

With Aedi's invaluable help, producing an accurate and interesting Bastarnae faction isn't all the difficult.

Moros you must be playing a mean trick on me?

tarchnal

08-14-2010, 19:17

tarchnal, welcome to the .Org!

I have a few comments about your faction selection. IIRC the Pritanoi review says there is no evidence for a strong Belgaen presence in southern England until a century or so after the start of the mod. And, again, they are not going to be added just to annoy one faction. The continental Belgae were seriously considered for EB1, so they may be included this time. On the other hand, don't we have enough Celts already?

As for a new Iberian faction, I'd say this is bound to be, probably in the form of the Arevacci. They have already been included in EB1 in the form of Moskon and his zombie army. The Spartocid Kingdom has been confirmed; the Basternae, on the other hand, have been emphatically denied by a team member. I still hope, though... There also have been hints of a new Eastern faction and another Semitic culture faction, although I have no idea were to place these.

I knew that there were Belgae in southern Britain during the timeframe, I just wasn't sure exactly when they got there. Still, Britan would be likely expansion route for a Belgae tribe as they went there historically, as part of their victory condition and perhaps as some gov2 (or even gov1?) province. That would inevitably put them at odds with the Pritanoi, something Britain lacks with the current versions.

I agree on the Arevaci, they are the most fitting as a celtiberian tribe, and as you say are already present in the game. I had read somewhere that the Bosporans were already confirmed, which is great due to their interesting position, but it is sad to hear that the Bastarnae might not make it in, as the units they have in EB already are brilliant.

On Chorasmia, they would be based in Khiva wouldn't they, or atleast very close to it? From what I have read about them they lived south of the Aral Sea, which would put them straight in current Pahlavan territory. Perhaps putting two weak factions too close to eachother might be too risky balancewise? If they enter the scene I'm sure that the EB-team would find a way around it (they kinda always do) but it looks like there's a a string of uncertainty somewhere. They'd be interesting for sure, and they would certainly spice things up in the East.

Morte66

08-14-2010, 22:40

Does anyone know what is happening with Syrucuse? Have they been ruled out at all? Just would really like to see them in if possible as I would love that campaign.

Does anyone think any other greek city states could be included apart from Pergamon or the Bosporans? I do like starting off small and am not too keen on the celts, iberians or germans you see. Although I always end playing and having a cracking time.

The Bosporians and Pergammon are in, I think Massalia and Syracuse have been ruled out -- they weren't significant in the timeframe.

I like small starting factions too. I've faked Massalia, Syracuse and the Bosporian Kingdom in EB1 by insta-migrating the KH, and Mauretania using Saba with a change of bodyguards.

Syracuse was too easy and a bit dull -- capture Lilybeo ASAP and you get secure flanks with a single narrow front against Rome, with plenty of mountain passes and rivers to exploit. KH recruiting is very good around there, arguably better than Greece, with the semi-elite Syracusan hoplites from a level 3 MIC in your hometown and Samnite heavies with AP swords in southern Italy.

Massalia is murder, there are too many enemies in too many directions. I can see why they became Roman clients in real history. And there's no heavy cavalry to start. And from a gaming standpoint the obvious people to invade are the Arverni, which feels a terrible waste because they're that rare faction who keep a peace deal.

The Bosporions out of Pantikapaion are a good compromise, strategically challenging but playable. The Helleno-Skythian unit mix is different from everything else, hoplites and horse archers, plus your neigbours (Getae, Mak, Sauro, Hai) have widely varied militaries. It's an extremely refereshing jolt of gameplay. [Contrast Pergamonn, another successor military fighting other successor militaries, sigh.]

Mauretania is fun for a short campaign, with the constant motion skirmishers and cavalry that pretty much dizzy the enemy to death. But I wouldn't want to play a long game with their tech tree and recruiting. I gather they've been ruled out, apparently one non-Carthage faction around there was enough.

I think the city of Emporion could be interesting to play, like Massalia with a Hellenic/Celtic/Iberian mix and without the early strategic claustrophobia. But having them build a Greek empire seems more historically far-fetched than Massalia/Syracuse. I get the impression they were basically some Greek merchants and sailors tacked on the side of an Iberian province, who got lucky when the EB map was drawn.

Phalanx300

08-15-2010, 22:59

Yup Pergamon, Bosphorans, Boii, Numidia and Basternae have already been confirmed.

Bastarnae?

Cyclops

08-15-2010, 23:10

There's a post buried wayyyy back in this thread (or one like it) outlining likely critera for new factions based on what was stated in EB as the "near misses". IIRC generally a good stock of AORs or an iconic unit is a fair indicator, and the ones to come true so far are the Numidians (a bunch of AORs in EB) Bosporus and Boii (outstanding iconic unit for each).

I think the Belgae were mentioned as a near miss so I'd guess they are a lock.

However Syracuse has been ruled out and I think that was one of the near-misses too, and it certainly has an iconic unit (d'oh!)...however I still think Bastarnae are likely.

... I've faked .. Syracuse ... in EB1 by insta-migrating the KH, and Mauretania using Saba ....

Same here, both interesting campaigns. The Mauretanian one is a corker, like you say swirling skirmishers and a bit of grunt from the elephants (I kept the Saba BG because I don't know how to change them :shame: and I needed someone to storm all the Karthis cities) :shame:).

Soooo glad Numidia is in.