New factions?

[Tuuvi]

Not in Gerrha, Petra, Bostra or Axum because....there aren't any available.

Oh ok, yea the only one of those cities I've conquered was Axum and I built a type 1 right from the start, so my bad.

[XSamatan]

off topic:
This issue will be addressed in EB1.3

[Arjos]

1.3!!!! Sweet ^^

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

off topic:
This issue will be addressed in EB1.3

Now....there's a nice little surprise. Wasn't expecting that...

[fomalhaut]

woah was NOT expecting that at all

[Populus Romanus]

So, when will 1.3 be released? Can you give us a date?And will there be Lorica Segementa?:skull:

[XSamatan]

When it is done.
EB1.3 is a side project with minor significance, all manpower goes into EB2, I'm sure you support this cause of action.
Furthermore there won't be new content, it will just combine the fixes for 1.2 and some other stuff we noticed.

Now please back to topic.

XSamatan

[ziegenpeter]

When it is done.
EB1.3 is a side project with minor significance, all manpower goes into EB2, I'm sure you support this cause of action.
Furthermore there won't be new content, it will just combine the fixes for 1.2 and some other stuff we noticed.

Now please back to topic.

XSamatan
Sorry, but you cannot drop such a bomb and then ask us to go back to topic:laugh4:
what would this "other stuff" you mentioned be...?

Unless you are performing trolling at its perfection.

[XSamatan]

Just misspellings in text files, the mentioned added client ruler recruitment, minor bugs.

I should have had my mouth closed.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Just misspellings in text files, the mentioned added client ruler recruitment, minor bugs.

I should have had my mouth closed.

Not at all, I certainly wasn't expecting it to be a great re-write (EB2, as you say, comes first) - its just nice to know that these little things are going to be addressed. No biggie, but cheers all the same.

[moonburn]

Just misspellings in text files, the mentioned added client ruler recruitment, minor bugs.

I should have had my mouth closed.

if this stops crashes it will be wonderfull i quited on my carthaginian campaign because of constant cdtc

[fomalhaut]

i'm sure you guys have compiled a bug list but don't forget the missing torsos of the Syracusans! the missing swords of some generals, the Sabyn pop ups talking about Carthage and feeble romans ummm that's all i can think of right now.

[Populus Romanus]

I have two ideas for the "unguessed faction". Tylis, founded after the invasion of Greece by Brennus and currently at the height of its power. Pokr Hayk, Lesser Armenia, never really heard of much but was apparently actve enough to conquer Trapezous. I will be coming up with a very in depth case for Tylis when I get back from vacation.:sun:

[Foot]

Pokr Hayk, Lesser Armenia, never really heard of much but was apparently actve enough to conquer Trapezous.

Where did you get that information from. That seems to highly doubtful.

Foot

[bobbin]

So sayeth an unsourced wikipedia claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Armenia#Early_history

[Foot]

So sayeth an unsourced wikipedia claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Armenia#Early_history

Wow! That's pretty weak right there. Armenia had been split in two ever since it had been absorbed into the Persian Empire. It was split between the 13th and 18th Satrapies (iirc), but were merged together when the Satrap Yervand I (or II) was granted lordship over Lesser Armenia as well as Greater Armenia. They never held Trapezous (what a load of crap that is) and Lesser Armenia was hardly an independent kingdom for any of our time period.

Foot

[Populus Romanus]

Wow! That's pretty weak right there. Armenia had been split in two ever since it had been absorbed into the Persian Empire. It was split between the 13th and 18th Satrapies (iirc), but were merged together when the Satrap Yervand I (or II) was granted lordship over Lesser Armenia as well as Greater Armenia. They never held Trapezous (what a load of crap that is) and Lesser Armenia was hardly an independent kingdom for any of our time period.

FootIn that case I withdraw Pokr Hayk (I never really got around to looking at them much).

[Brennus]

I have two ideas for the "unguessed faction". Tylis, founded after the invasion of Greece by Brennus and currently at the height of its power.:sun:

Yes I did found that kingdom BUT it was conquered by the Thracians within two generations. Tylis was a robber kingdom, a supplier of mercenaries and a thorn in the side of Thrake and Macedon, nothing more. It certainly is not a suitable candidate for a faction, especially when you consider the longevity of its cousin Galatia.

On another note how is work progressing on the Bellovaci/Suessiones, Foot?

[Populus Romanus]

Yes I did found that kingdom BUT it was conquered by the Thracians within two generations. Tylis was a robber kingdom, a supplier of mercenaries and a thorn in the side of Thrake and Macedon, nothing more. It certainly is not a suitable candidate for a faction, especially when you consider the longevity of its cousin Galatia.


You shall die either tommorrow or the day after tommorrow, depending upon how fast I can research.

Also, I retract my withdrawl of Pokr Hayk. The fact that they survived until Rome came knocking has to stand for something. However, I can't be bothered to research further, as I am devoting myself to Tylis.

[Epimetheus]

Hmm… what about the Dardanians? Mixed Thracian, Illyrian, and Celtic culture, a constant thorn in the side of Makedon, and as I recall responsible for the death of several of the Antigonid dynasty's kings.

[Populus Romanus]

Hmm… what about the Dardanians? Mixed Thracian, Illyrian, and Celtic culture, a constant thorn in the side of Makedon, and as I recall responsible for the death of several of the Antigonid dynasty's kings.I am pretty sure they were ruled out, unfortunately.

[moonburn]

because the balkans aren´t overcrowded already it almost feels like every new faction gives suport for the appearence of another neighbouring faction

[bobbin]

Hmm… what about the Dardanians? Mixed Thracian, Illyrian, and Celtic culture, a constant thorn in the side of Makedon, and as I recall responsible for the death of several of the Antigonid dynasty's kings.

From what I understand information about them is scant at best.

[Brennus]

You shall die either tommorrow or the day after tommorrow, depending upon how fast I can research.

Rabo!

Bon chance monsieur!

[strategos roma]

Media Atropatene would be a nice choice...they were independent in 272BC although they didn't seem 2 be particularly important.
Cappodacia and bithynia would also be an option...they were regional powers and there are plenty of research on them
Galatia will definitely be fun to play as.

I also have a few suggestions regarding the ongoing dispute over the KH. First, I have full confidence in the EB team that they did their research and they were the only logical choice for a Greek faction. Also, Epeiros never became imprtant again after Pyrrhos death and they just hung around until the Romans came so the Greeks definitely aren't the only faction that never came to much in reality. As for the Achaean league, would it be possible to create a new rebel province with strong armies like the Aitolians to represent them? This seemed to have worked pretty well in EB as in my campaigns it was actually quite rare for Thermon to fall to anyone until the 210s.

[bobbin]

No, Greece already has it's fair share of provinces, it certainly doesn't need anymore considering we have the whole map to think about.

And Pyrrhos's son and grandsons was a pretty active ruler of Epeiros, the latter just appear to have been very unlucky.

[moonburn]

No, Greece already has it's fair share of provinces, it certainly doesn't need anymore considering we have the whole map to think about.

And Pyrrhos's son and grandsons was a pretty active ruler of Epeiros, the latter just appear to have been very unlucky.

because luck is not genetic and pyrrhus was extremly lucky in argos right :? i mean if not for argos pyrrho´s would have returned to epeiros defeated he would loose eventually all lands in the pelloponese he was an enemy of rome and the makedonians wanted him dead so he was left without any allies or decent allies while being surrounded by enemies

altough one can argue that had pyrho´s lasted until the messina events he could have allied himself with the carthaginians and with carthaginian gold the war could have went diferently (but then again he was already old what where the chances of him surviving 12 more years?)

[bobbin]

I meant unlucky because the last two male members of the royal line only had brief rules which were cut short by their sudden deaths, after which the state effectively collapsed, rising again in the from of a much smaller republic.

[Populus Romanus]

I am sorry this took so long, Brennus. I am sure you are devastated by my postponement.:wink:

Tylis History

Tylis declined because they failed to consolidate their rule. Initially, Tylis exercised complete dominance in Thrace. This is the period of EB. In 272 BC, the great Gallic invasion of the Balkans was just 5 years past, and everyone was still reeling from the aftermath. The Illyrians were hammered by the Celtic onslaught, the Thracians were mauled and their power completely eradicated for the time being, the Getai tribe was nearly entirely annihilated, Macedonia repeatedly ravaged, and Greece nearly plundered. At this point, the Galatian migration to Asia Minor had not yet begun, though it would in just a few years. Do not make the mistake of underestimating the power of the Celtic Balkan kingdoms by judging them based upon their fall. At this point, the power wielded by Tylis and its sister kingdom of the Scordisci was immense. Don’t make the assumption that Tylis was doomed to fail, for it certainly was not, and the scale could easily have tipped in either direction. The prospects of Tylis were bright.
The first blow to Tylis was the Galatian migration. This migration to Asia Minor not only deprived Tylis of many valuable soldiers, but also relegated it to a halfway house for Celts searching for wealth in the East. Tylis originally had been by far the strongest of the Celtic kingdoms, with for more soldiers than the Scordisci. However, the migration changed that entirely, leaving the Scordisci with the slight edge in numbers. However, the migration also strengthened Tylis in other ways. Galatia proved to be a valuable ally in the East, and the Celtic migrants who traveled through Tylis to get there did provide a slow stream of new soldiers to fill the ranks of the kingdom.
The migration was Tylis’ only major setback for decades. Their position remained the same, with the Greek cities on the coasts providing tribute out of fear and the Thracians still kept in check. However, it was this period of apparent stability that doomed Tylis. The apparent stability that lulled Tylis into a false sense of security was built upon pillars of sand that came crashing down when the first Greeks refused to pay tribute. In 250 BC, Appollonia refused to pay tribute, and when Tylis dispatched soldiers to forcibly extract it, other cities sent soldiers to protect Appollonia. The Celtic soldiers were forced to back down, and this overt show of weakness was catastrophic. Soon, many of the Greek cities were refusing to pay tribute, so many so that Tylis could not possibly retaliate.
For decades during the era of supposed stability in Tylis, the Thracian tribes had gradually been recovering from their crushing defeats at the hands of the Celts. This process had taken so long that it had been almost impossible to perceive their recovery from an onlooker’s perspective. So when in 212 BC, when Tylis’ idiot king Cavaros decided to monumentally raise taxes on the Thracians, they revolted. It was not the revolt that really shocked Tylis, it was that the Thracians were powerful enough to completely wipe out the Celts. It was a revelation that must have taken Tylis completely by surprise. In 193 BC Tylis was sacked and the kingdom ceased to exist.



What Should Have Happened (for Tylis)

What went wrong for Tylis? This can be traced back to the time where their rule was stable. It was in this period that they made their greatest failure. Tylis failed to consolidate its rule over all of Thrace, they paid the price as a result. Tylis did attempt to conquer the remaining Thracians, but their attempts to were always defeated. This was largely because they were often too busy trying to extract tribute from the Greeks to allocate their full resources to Thrace. In the short term, this seemed like the best approach. After all, it was the failure of one Greek city to pay tribute that set off a massive revolt. Tylis naturally was worried of losing its control over these cities, and so did as much as it could to prevent it.
Furthermore, they still managed to hold together many of these cities. It was not until the reign of the idiot Cavaros, who alone should take the blame for Tylis’ demise, that all the cities stopped paying tribute. Polybius relates that many of the cities along the Black Sea coast continued to pay tribute, including Byzantium. The author of The Celts: a history (couldn’t be bothered to type out his name) here claims that this is not true. He says that Polybius is “exaggerating the power of the Thracian Celts”, and that Polybius is “confusing the tribute to the Celts with an unrelated finance effort by the Byzantines”. This is quite simply not true. First of all, Polybius is exactly the kind of historian who does not exaggerate, and here the author is making the mistake of under exaggerating the strength of Tylis. And I would sooner burn my copy of Polybius than believe the Polybius, who not only was alive during this series of events (the tribute stopped in sometime around 220 BC) but also was Greek and would have been personally affected, and also is once again is renowned for not making this kind of mistake, made that mistake.
There were two follies in this approach. First of all, even all they could still was not enough to completely control the Greeks cities. Second, they did not need the Greek cities. However, they did need Thrace in order to survive, and they failed to put enough effort into securing it. If Tylis had truly given their all, they could have secured Thrace in 272 BC, and even into the following decades. Tylis was at the height of its power, and if they had spent their full military might on Thrace it would have been like swatting a fly with a hammer. The Thracian tribes were decimated and disunified, and Tylis was bursting and highly centralized. To sum it up, Tylis could have conquered Thrace with ease in its early history.
It was the mistakes of their rulers that prevented Tylis from doing so. Their rulers prioritized the Greeks to the Thracians and in the end lost both. If they had had even the slightest amount of forward thinking and planning they would have pushed on Thrace and taken it. In the end, Tylis could survive the loss of the tribute paid by the Greeks, but not the loss of the soldiers provided by the Thracians. Eliminating the Thracian tribes certainly would have meant the loss of the Greek cities, but Tylis could survive it, and would have eventually come back and taken them back by force. Then, the question really would have been: who could stop them?




Why Tylis?

Tylis would be an excellent choice for a faction in Europa Barbarorum II. First of all, examine gameplay effects. Tylis would start with one city, Tylis, and control one province, Odrysai. This would put Tylis at a crossroads. Thrace is a region in EB that is completely vacant (Contrary to popular opinion, the Getai do not inhabit Thrace. They are located in Getia, also known as Dacia, and were commonly accepted by ancient writers to be distinct from Thracians and Thrace.), but is located at a very important crossroads. Like how the Getai formed the border between the Steppe and Eastern Europe in EBI, so Tylis would be border between several important regions. Thrace is at the crossroads between Dacia (Getia), Illyria, Greece, and Asia Minor. I am making an unreasable assumption here that the Scordisci will be in. They would keep all the factions inhabiting these regions in check, and give them a great deal to worry about.
Tylis would also have a unit roster different from any other faction’s. They would have a mix of Celtic and Thracian units, a deadly combination. As they are located at a crossroads between cultures, they could recruit units used by their neighbors if they conquer them. They would later be able to recruit Hellenic, Illyrian, Dacian (Getic), Galatian, and others into their militaries.
Second, examine the historical reasons why Tylis should be in. Tylis was a young kingdom at the height of its power. When people look at Tylis, their interpretations are colored by its fall. After all, this is the period of its history that we have the most information about. However, people often forget about the other period of Tylis’ history. These were Tylis’ glory days. Just over hardly more than five years ago, Celts including those who would found Tylis decimated the Dacians (Getai), hammered the Illyrians, subjugated the Thracians, destroyed a Diadochi kingdom, mauled Macedonia, and nearly gutted all of Greece. What went down five years prior is far more representative of the power of Tylis than what went down fifty years later. Tylis was weaker than the original force lead by Brennus, for it had split in two (the Scordisci and Tylis) and would split in three less than a year after EB starts (the Galatians), but the power they held, the force they could wield, and the fear they could inspire was almost equal. Five years would be awfully quick to forget the memories of Brennus’ invasion.
Tylis certainly could have united Thrace. Due to mistakes by their rulers, however, Tylis lost the advantage it held and let the Thracian tribes recover from their defeats. However, in 272 BC, the resistance the Thracians could have put up to Tylis would have been meager at best, and unification could have been achieved. Then, Greece would have to face down another Celtic invasion from the North. It is doubtful they could ever have survived in the weakened state they were in during the aftermath of Pyrrhus and Antigonus’ return to power. Although Antigonus’ political situation was very secure with the pro Macedonian tyrants throughout Greece, his military situation was quite the opposite. Pyrrhus had decimated his armies and Macedonia had been ravaged by repeated wars. If a Gallo-Thracian horde had appeared on the borders of Greece now, who could have stopped it? Certainly not Macedonia or Antigonus. But if not him, then whom? No one else was strong enough to take it on at this time either. It seems inevitable that Greece would have fallen.
How far could Tylis have gone? If Thrace was unified, Tylis had innumerable avenues of expansion. To Greece with its vast wealth to plundered, to the Greek Black Sea colonies who were so anxious to revolt, to Dacia (Getia) where the last remnants of Dacian (Getai) power would have posed a threat, to Illyria where not much seems to have been going on, or to Asia Minor with its wealth that could be plundered as well. Any of these avenues of expansion could have pursued by a Gallo-Thracian kingdom, and it would have been met with success almost anywhere it went. If things had just played out differently in the crucial years after Brennus’ invasion, Tylis could have been a Balkan power to be reckoned with. In 272 BC, Tylis was not condemned to its eventual fate. It still could have taken for itself a future of conquest and glory. EB is about creating your own history, and Tylis would be one of the best ways to do that.



Tylis Unit Roster:

Tylis was a kingdom much like those of the Hellenistic Period in that it could be characterized by its rich mixture of cultures. Thracian, Illyrian, Greek, and Getic/Dacian were all assimilated into Celtic. This cultural fusion extended through civilian life and into the military. Here, the small Celtic ruling class was forced by necessity to absorb Thracians as well as other ethnicies into their military in order to field any sort of fighting force. The Scordisci and Tylis were never as fortunate as the Galatians, who had a steady stream of immigrants from Gaul to settle there, replacing their dwindling population of Celts. Immigrants skipped over these kingdoms, eventually leading to them being assimilated by the natives rather than the other way around (the Scordisci were Illyrianized, Tylis was Thracianized). The flow of immigrants to Galatia was stopped by the fall of Tylis, however. As the game progresses for Tylis, more and more native units become available, and recruitment of Celtic units becomes more and more restricted.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_bataroas.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_sotaroas.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_gaeroas.gif
Bataroas & Sataroas & Gaeroas – of all the Celtic units available to Tylis, these would be the first to go. It had been just five years since the botched invasion of Greece, so these hardened veteran troops left over from the initial invasion force would still be present. But their numbers were dwindling faster than they could be replaced, and many of the next generation of warriors after the original Celtic settlers fought in the style of the Thracians rather than their Gallic forefathers. Certainly Tylis would start with a unit of these, with much experience, but their recruitment slots would be puny and only go down. In fact, I call into question their ability to recruit them at all.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_lugoae.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_iaosatae.gif
Lugoae & Iaosatae – as the basic military unit of every Celtic kingdom, they would be on Tylis’ unit roster for sure. However, Lugoae are citizen levies of people who normally have no experience with warfare. They are craftsmen and farmers, not warriors. This is a problem because there are very few Celts in Thrace. It would have taken very large numbers of Celts to fill the ranks of Tylis army and to rule the kingdom, meaning that there would be few Celts left to be farmers and craftsmen and other peacetime professions. These are vacancies that would be filled with Thracians, Illyrians, Greeks, and Dacians; just another example of how Tylis became Thracianized. Also, due to the scarcity of Celts not involved in war, Lugoae recruitment slots would limited.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_gaesatae.gif
Gaesatae – Naked fanaticism survived in Galatia for almost a millennium, there is no reason to presume that it wouldn’t have also survived in Tylis as well. However, their recruitment slots would be extremely limited.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_teceitos.gif
Teceitos – Celtic axeman, while rare in most areas, were common in Eastern Europe. This does not mean they were common, but their replenishment rate would be steady.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_mist_keltohellenikoi.gif
Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai – In areas where Celts and Greeks mixed, and cultural exchange resulted in each party adapting the best the other had to offer. In warfare, this resulted in the Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai. This phenomenon has been found in Massilia and in Galatia, where Celts had extensive exposure to Greek culture. Historically, Tylis never left its hinterland and its only exposure to Greek culture was by Greek tribute. However, if the kingdom had capitalized on its advantage and conquered Thrace , that would have left in direct contact with the Greek colonies on the Aegean and Black Sea coasts. Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai would be available only in areas traditionally defined as “Greek”.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_thraikioi_doryphoroi.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_peltastaithrakioi.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_rhompharoi_thorakitai.gif
Thraikioi Doryphoroi & Thraikioi Peltastai & Thraikioi Rhompaiaphoroi - Thracian infantry were the mainstay of every army Tylis fielded. They had too few Celts to field a proper army, and relied on native infantry to compose the majority of their field army. This was much the same as the Scordisci, who relied upon Illyrians to compose their military. The replenishment rate of Thracian infantry would be very high.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_prodromoithrakioi.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_thrakioi_hippeis.gif
Thraikioi Hippeis & Thraikioi Prodromoi – Thracian cavalry were the mainstay of every army Tylis fielded. They had too few Celts to field a proper army, and relied on native native to compose the majority of their field army’s cavalry. This was much the same as the Scordisci, who relied upon Illyrians to compose their military. The replenishment rate of Thracian cavalry would be very high.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_gallathraikies.gif
Galathraikes – the core of every army Tylis put in the field, these men are Thracians armed with Celtic equipment. They are set apart from the Illyrioi Thureophoroi because unlike the latter, Galathraikes are also significantly Celticized, as evidenced by their wearing of a torque. Since there was an almost endless reservoir of potential Galathraikes to draw upon, their recruitment slots would be very high.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/illyria/rebel_illyrian_thureophoroi.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/illyria/rebel_illyrioihippeis.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epe_illyrian_levies.gif

Illyrioi Hippeis & Illyrioi Thureophoroi & Illyrioi Phyletichoi – The Celtic kingdoms in the Balkans had very low populations of Celts. This forced them into absorbing natives into their armies. This meant enrolling as many natives as possible from a variety of cultures. Tylis was located in the heart of Thrace, and their armies would be majority Thracian by a large margin. However, Illyrians found their way into the service of Tylis in considerable numbers as well. Particularly, they would have filtered in through the Southwest, the nearest heavily Illyrian influenced area. Their replenishment would be medium, but would not be available in Thrace.



Tylis King List:

Very little historical information is available when it comes to the Kings of Tylis. The names of only two are known. These are known from Polybius.

Comontorius – Was the leader of the Celts who would one day found Tylis in the year 279 BC. As far as I know, this is all that is ever heard from him. Presuming, though, that he did not die between 279 BC and 272 BC, he would be the starting faction leader of Tylis.

Cavaros – The King who killed Tylis with his idiocy and ineptitude (although he shouldn’t take all the blame). Reigned in 220 BC, and died in 212 BC. Tylis died with him.



Tylis symbol:

This was a Thracian depiction of a Galatian, most likely referring to any Celt rather than the Galatians in Asia Minor, because Galatian is a Greek blanked term for Celt, which seems like exactly the type of thing that would be lost in translation on Wikipedia, which is where I got this. This is from the Third Century BC. WARNING: massive picture

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Galatian_head_Thrace_detail.jpg



Source list:

Webber, Chrisopher. "Tylis." Welcome to Thrace and the Thracians!. N.p., 27 Jan. 2002. Web. 12 Apr. 2011. <home.exetel.com.au/thrace/tylis.htm>.

Ó hÓgáin, Dáithí . "Short-lived Celtic power in Thrace." The Celts: a history. Unable to locate on website: Boydell Press, 2003. 69-73. Print.

Kilvert, Ian, and F. W. Walbank. The rise of the Roman Empire . Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1979. Print. à Polybius

Khelvan, and Foot. "Europa Barbarorum." Europa Barbarorum. Europa Barbarorum, n.d. Web. 12 Apr. 2011. <https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions.html

[moonburn]

considering what you say the kelts would be the top layers of society meaning that sataroas wouldn´t be there and the same for most

bataroas are good also you should add in the gaesatae to represent those more pious or a kind of priestly class and maybe the galatians that the egyptians have ? i mean they where the top of the cream meaning that any keltik king going into batle would always equip his most loyal men the best he could since without them he wouldn´t be king for long and ofc his royal loyal guard if you can had a keltik heavy cavalry you got the core of the tylian nobility present or higher echellons however you prefer

also the gallotrakioi where not thracians in keltik equipment they where like liby poenii except the keltic don´t discriminate as much as a "civilized" society so there would be the "bastards" (always reminds me of the basternae and makes me wonder why that name ... ) a few keltik officials and a few thracians with proven loyalty (altough once the game passes a certain time we should assume they where all half breads of keltik and thracian descent)

the amount of thracians at the start should be very limited since they had just been destroyed and didn´t had much of anything in terms of manpower to go to war much more nobiles to use the rhomphaia or make a cavarly squadron (and even if a few still survived they would probably be hunted down by the keltoi wanting to share their wealth amonst deserving kelts) so if rhompahia bearing units and thracian mediums appear they should either be mixbreads or nobles who had proven their loyalty to the king and had been given a keltic noble wife anyway very low numbers being able to be recruitable

as for it being a faction and makedonia being nothing ... kh ptolomaioi still had a decent fleet they could suply the greek city´s and antigonas and phyrrus still lived and they both had massive armies prepared (20.000 each at least ) so tylis if not starting together with the scordisci would be at a big disadvantage

also kallatis was under getic protection and passing the straight meant entering the galatians lands and getting into problems with both the gallatians (i mean it´s their tax payers) and the pontiacs who protected bythinia and several other smaller lands in mikra asia

there´s also pergamon

so you basically wanna put a faction beteween the boii the getic the makedonians the epirotes and the kh on one side and beteween the pergamese pontians ptolomaioi arche seulekeia on the other (and galatians and bythinians altough they aren´t represented) and just 2 regions away from the bosphorans and sauromatae :\ like if the balkan mikra asia axis wasn´t overcrowded already

i advice you to look around the forum and search the presentation papers for syracuse arevaci illergertum and a few others that where presented over 2 years ago and you might wanna brush up and tidy up your presentation (just a friendly advice)

[strategos roma]

Moonburn is absolutely right. Adding Tylis would make the Balkans incredibly crowded and messy and further worsen the stalemate that we already see ther in EB1. That's not to say I disagree with it as a faction though. They would indeed have a fantastic unit roster and would definitely be fun to play as. I'm just concerned tht the AI won't be able to manage it.

[Moros]

I don't see how Tylis would make the balkans so incredibly crowded? Assuming we don't have other factions planned for the region, there's only the Getai there and much much more north we have the Lugii. Also I tought we didn't like Makedon conquering Finland half of the time, either. If you're going to make arguments based on possible factions, than prepare for a silly discussion. And it's not like you guys actually have an idea about most of our unreleased factions anyway.

[stratigos vasilios]

I don't know, I'd be a supporter for the Tylis cause. First of all it's probably worth recognising the effort of PR to put in some research on Tylis and essentially sticking his neck out by posting information into a (somewhat) heavily scrutinised history forum. Now I haven't read all of PRs post (atm quite busy), just a quick skim, but I would be pro Tylis as I wouldn't think it'd congest the area but make for a more fun gaming experience. I'll have to come back to further this post.


And it's not like you guys actually have an idea about most of our unreleased factions anyway.

Ouch! People of Cthulhu ruled out then?

[fightermedic]

there is no way a region can be to crowded
if anything it can be to empty
best thing = as in shogun 2 there are no rebell factions but many many small factions
i sure hope one out of the 3 most prominent eastern celt factions will make it in (as the other two could be simulated well by an migration campaign then)
out of those 3 tylis and the scordisci look best suited for me as those areas could well take another faction

[Brennus]

PR,
:balloon2: for you in recognition of a very thorough and well argued case for Tylis. I must admit the effort you have put into your argument is very impressive, most people simply copy and paste classical authors descriptions of a people and little more. You also make a good case that the area, although currently inhabitted by Makedon, Getai, Sauromatae and others further afield, still has room to allow a faction to flex its muscles and your idea of a Tylis army reforming over time to incorporate increasing numbers of Thracians and fewer Celts has much merit to it and would make for interesting gameplay. You also successfully deal with the issue of Tylis short existence, arguing that the purpose of EB is to make history, and that Tylis short existence was due to unfortunate leadership.

However how do you hope to deal with the lack of La Tene material found in Thrace? With the exception of the Mezek settlement/cemetery there is a major lack of archaeological material to support the creation of a Tylis faction.

Apologies for the lack of substantive response I am very hungover at the time of writing.

[Populus Romanus]

PR,
:balloon2: for you in recognition of a very thorough and well argued case for Tylis. I must admit the effort you have put into your argument is very impressive, most people simply copy and paste classical authors descriptions of a people and little more. You also make a good case that the area, although currently inhabitted by Makedon, Getai, Sauromatae and others further afield, still has room to allow a faction to flex its muscles and your idea of a Tylis army reforming over time to incorporate increasing numbers of Thracians and fewer Celts has much merit to it and would make for interesting gameplay. You also successfully deal with the issue of Tylis short existence, arguing that the purpose of EB is to make history, and that Tylis short existence was due to unfortunate leadership.
Thank you!

However how do you hope to deal with the lack of La Tene material found in Thrace? With the exception of the Mezek settlement/cemetery there is a major lack of archaeological material to support the creation of a Tylis faction. There never were that many Celts in Thrace, and they became rapidly Thracianized during their stay in Thrace.


Apologies for the lack of substantive response I am very hungover at the time of writing.Dunking your head in ice water has been scientifically proven to sober people up!:yes: Although it may be painful.:no:

[war is hell]

Now that the original two gallic factions have been redrawn to their homelands. Will tribes like the Insubres or Sequani get their own factions now? Or has that been ruled out?

[Arjos]

If it wasn't for the faction limit, we would have a faction for each province XD
Pretty sure the team is considering priorities, whether cultural, historical or due to enough evidence for a valid depiction I don't know, but I believe it will be the best work possible within the game engine's limitations, so many people with passion and brain are behind it...

[moonburn]

If it wasn't for the faction limit, we would have a faction for each province XD
Pretty sure the team is considering priorities, whether cultural, historical or due to enough evidence for a valid depiction I don't know, but I believe it will be the best work possible within the game engine's limitations, so many people with passion and brain are behind it...

herm a few provinces would still have eleutheroi in the permanent stone forts since most provinces were not inhabitated by single groups for instance numantia had 7 tribes living in that province and altough all celtiberians only one of them where the arevaci and the rest wheren´t so friendly to each other so what you mean would probably be unlimited provinces and the hability to redraw provinces (would be fun destroying the psf´s to add x region to a province or conquer a psf and he gets to be a sub province of x regions)

[Arjos]

Ok no more hyperboles here ^^

[Brennus]

I'm sure someone has already mentioned them but how about the Volcae?

[Brennus]

Oops, wrong thread.

[Populus Romanus]

I think this is the right thread...?

[Brennus]

I think this is the right thread...?

Yes your right. I thought the Tylis proposal had its own thread for a moment.

[Moros]

Yes your right. I thought the Tylis proposal had its own thread for a moment.

It had.

[geala]

I've not followed the thread for a longer time, I got the feeling they were ruled out at some point (?), but at the moment my most beloved faction would be a Nubian (Kusch), to give more action to Africa. Playing Makuria in BC is really a fun. Maybe it is not so much known of 3rd c. BC Nubia military, but it is also not so much known about 3rd c. BC German military. Were the Nubians ruled out already?

[Arjos]

Were the Nubians ruled out already?

Unfortunately culture limit won't let us have Kush and Maurya...

Btw about the germanic 3rd century, they are mentioned early as the roman campaigns in Cisalpine Gaul, but that will open a much discussed topic of what is Germanic and Celtic...

[Brennus]

With the reduction in the numbers of starting provinces for the Aedui and Arverni does this poen the possibility of new Celtic factions? Unlike the Germanic peoples our knowledge of the Celtic world is substantial enough to enable the reconstruction of other Celtic factions and the fact the Aedui and Arverni only start with Gergovia and Bibracte in EBII would mean there will be plenty of space to accomodate another Gallic faction. I have already said many times about I hope there will be a Belgic faction but what about other big players in Gaul; the Sequani, the Bituriges and the Allobroges?

[Ibrahim]

I'm still wondering about the chances of an Arabian faction, other than Saba'.

beyond that, the late case for Tylis warrants a balloon from me as well :balloon2:

[Populus Romanus]

Yay! I haz my first balloon. (I didn't realize people still did that)

I am holding out for the Nabatu. Though it is pretty doubtful in my mind.

[fomalhaut]

your case is pretty good for tylis frater romanus!
i'd love for the nabatu as well

[Ibrahim]

Yay! I haz my first balloon. (I didn't realize people still did that)

I am holding out for the Nabatu. Though it is pretty doubtful in my mind.

I'm not necessarily indicating Nabatu: what I am wondering about is the fact that the devs never indicated one way or another (publicly) that there would, or would not be, one. this was in spite of being pressed for it (as in other factions' cases).
simply put, I just want public confirmation one way or another (i.e. faction or not).


privately, I already know/suspect the answer. whether it is a yes or no? well, I leave that to you.

damn, I've been reading too many of Moros' posts :dizzy:

[moonburn]

herm arevaci haven´t been confirmed yet wich keeps me doubting i mean if france + northern french get 3 factions as a few defend then iberia will seriously be under represented even if the arevaci come with their full glory

[stratigos vasilios]

I'm not necessarily indicating Nabatu: what I am wondering about is the fact that the devs never indicated one way or another (publicly) that there would, or would not be, one. this was in spite of being pressed for it (as in other factions' cases).
simply put, I just want public confirmation one way or another (i.e. faction or not).

privately, I already know/suspect the answer. whether it is a yes or no? well, I leave that to you.

I think they have been ruled out in this thread, I'm just too lazy to look and find it for you!


damn, I've been reading too many of Moros' posts :dizzy:

Yeah that guy drives everybody nuts...

[paullus]

Geala, a Nubian kingdom and its armies aren't beyond what we can conceive, there are a number of sources that would help us create units and some semblance of institutions, but it would be a rather weak and generic military, and a generally weak faction, politically. You shouldn't anticipate a Nubian faction. If we had 40, it'd have a decent shot.

[Moros]

Yeah that guy drives everybody nuts...
Nuts! Where!?

http://allfunny.net/pics/squirreleatinganut/squirrel-eating-a-nut-1.JPG
http://allfunny.net/pics/squirreleatinganut/squirrel-eating-a-nut-2.JPG
http://allfunny.net/pics/squirreleatinganut/squirrel-eating-a-nut-3.JPG
http://allfunny.net/pics/squirreleatinganut/squirrel-eating-a-nut-5.JPG
http://allfunny.net/pics/squirreleatinganut/squirrel-eating-a-nut-6.JPG

[MaxMazi]

Ha Ha Ha Ha! Great one buddy!

[fomalhaut]

Geala, a Nubian kingdom and its armies aren't beyond what we can conceive, there are a number of sources that would help us create units and some semblance of institutions, but it would be a rather weak and generic military, and a generally weak faction, politically. You shouldn't anticipate a Nubian faction. If we had 40, it'd have a decent shot.

i think the politically weak factions are the absolute most fun to play, and are the best for what EB is replicating. Everyone can take over 'the world' as SPQR, or Asia Minor as Pontus, or Greece as Makedonia, but to break out with Saby'n, Casse, Koinon Hellenon or even post Pyrrhus and Alexandros Epirus is very fun.

[stratigos vasilios]

Nuts! Where!?

*Deep exhale, rubs eyes, shakes head*

[Cyclops]

Geala, a Nubian kingdom and its armies aren't beyond what we can conceive, there are a number of sources that would help us create units and some semblance of institutions, but it would be a rather weak and generic military, and a generally weak faction, politically. You shouldn't anticipate a Nubian faction. If we had 40, it'd have a decent shot.

Or if we had more than 7 culture slots we'd have Nubians and Mauryans!

Have the team announced if they are altering the assigned cultures? I'm guessing its a huge ask as there musty be a ton of work involved, but i have always wondered if there's a case for condensing east and west Greek cultures.

[Ibrahim]

I think they have been ruled out in this thread, I'm just too lazy to look and find it for you!

looking, I don't see them ruled out per se. however, the souther Arabian and Eastern Arabian ones were-which I am not surprised about.

[stratigos vasilios]

looking, I don't see them ruled out per se. however, the souther Arabian and Eastern Arabian ones were-which I am not surprised about.

Hmmm...in that case, I really hope I'm wrong. Be very interesting if they were a faction.

[oudysseos]

By the pricking of my thumbs....

[Hotseat_User]

huhh? do we smell a non-EB1-included culture? or whats the case you're reffering to odysseos?

[fightermedic]

surly he's referring to moros' cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute pictures

[oudysseos]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha.



I just wish I could see the expression on your faces when.........

[Arjos]

That squirrel is just lovely :D
Anyway by reading twitter something huge is on its way...
Could it be roasted nuts? XD

[stratigos vasilios]

By the pricking of my thumbs....

Something wicked this way comes?

[Moros]

Something wicked this way comes?
Quite indeed.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Quite indeed.

They'll never know what hit them...

[Hotseat_User]

prepare for the worst & hope for the best
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLef_K00Z48

anyway, I'm happy for Moros as he found partner(s) in crime! :inquisitive:

[Brennus]

Hmmm...in that case, I really hope I'm wrong. Be very interesting if they were a faction.

Well if its an Arabian faction my money is on Ma'in, Qataban or Hadhramaut.


herm arevaci haven´t been confirmed yet wich keeps me doubting i mean if france + northern french get 3 factions as a few defend then iberia will seriously be under represented even if the arevaci come with their full glory

3? The only factions in Gaul are the Arverni and Aedui at the moment. Boii are central Europe. Don't forget Iberia will also have the Carthaginians and Lusotanians as well with the likelyhood that scripting will result in at least one Greek settlement going over to the side of the KH (or their replacement).


They'll never know what hit them...

Belgians!
I know it wont be but a man can dream... a man can dream.

[Moros]

Well if its an Arabian faction my money is on Ma'in, Qataban or Hadhramaut.
Qatabân would be a Saba clone but with two or so of the most interesting units less. Hadramawt would perhaps be the best and most interesting of the three. Ma'in was to loose a federation with more economic power than military. Military wise it was more dependant of the Hadramawt. Perhaps the both of them could be made into a faction, with ma'in as an allied province of Hadramawt. Hmm that could work.

Edit: damn it, now I need a new signature.

[Populus Romanus]

Looks like we will have to revise our lists. Now I kinda doubt that Tylis or Nabatu is in. :sadface:
Qatabân would be a Saba clone but with two or so of the most interesting units less. Hadramawt would perhaps be the best and most interesting of the three. Ma'in was to loose a federation with more economic power than military. Military wise it was more dependant of the Hadramawt. Perhaps the both of them could be made into a faction, with ma'in as an allied province of Hadramawt. Hmm that could work.LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES You can fool them but you'll never get me!

[Kival]

What gives you the impression that the existence of Takashila has any impact on the propability of Tylis or Nabatu as a faction?


You can fool them but you'll never get me!

Actually, it's quite possible that this is exactly, what they are doing and moros hopes for reverse psychology here ;-)

[Populus Romanus]

What gives you the impression that the existence of Takashila has any impact on the propability of Tylis or Nabatu as a faction?Not enough slots left, more deserving choices that Nabatu or in particular Tylis.

[Moros]

As I said 'perhaps' and 'could', I can't have told any lies. Unless you don't believe me when I tell you the Qatabân would be a Saba clone or that the Ma'in weren't much military wise.

@Kival: That's the fun part. I've revealed quite a few EB II secrets in the past that were just dismissed as being lies or mind games.

[Lvcretivs]

(...) I've revealed quite a few EB II secrets in the past that were just dismissed as being lies or mind games.

My god, aren't you in the least concerned about the frantic 'quote-mining' rampage this confession will certainly unleash among the fanatically dedicated EB fandom?! :grin2:

[Lysimachos]

My god, aren't you in the least concerned about the frantic 'quote-mining' rampage this confession will certainly unleash among the fanatically dedicated EB fandom?! :grin2:

Must ... read ... each and every one ... of Moros' 9,947 posts ... now ...

[Ibrahim]

Must ... read ... each and every one ... of Moros' 9,947 posts ... now ...

9,955 posts now.

[Populus Romanus]

Or we could all join the EBII team and never have to bother with Moros again!:wink:

[Morte66]

With the news that the map will be extended east for for the new Mauryan faction, this of course opens possibilites further north. E.g perhaps the Yuezhi will fit into the map within the timeframe now...

*pokes ant nest with a stick*

[stratigos vasilios]

Hmm, were they in the map at the start of the EB timeframe? Interesting point you've suggested.

[fightermedic]

With the news that the map will be extended east for for the new Mauryan faction, this of course opens possibilites further north. E.g perhaps the Yuezhi will fit into the map within the timeframe now...

*pokes ant nest with a stick*
quite possible
however, didn't they allready state that they are to far east?
but then, haven't they told us there wont be a mauryan faction?^^

[Populus Romanus]

With the news that the map will be extended east for for the new Mauryan faction, this of course opens possibilites further north. E.g perhaps the Yuezhi will fit into the map within the timeframe now...

*pokes ant nest with a stick* Brilliant.:thumbsup:

[Lysimachos]

I doubt we'll see the Yuezhi as a faction. Despite extending the map, it would be a rather crowded region, considering there isn't much to subsist on economically. I believe when they were still in EB I, the Saka were not yet, right?

[Populus Romanus]

I doubt we'll see the Yuezhi as a faction. Despite extending the map, it would be a rather crowded region, considering there isn't much to subsist on economically. I believe when they were still in EB I, the Saka were not yet, right?Correct. But the fact that they were originally chosen over the Saka means that the EB team considered them worthy before they discovered there wasn't enough room.

[bobbin]

From the TWC


Its been extended east by three tiles. Thats not enough to include the Yuezhi.

Foot

[Sir Edward]

First off I want to thank the EB II team for the awesome preview, and all the hard work they have been doing. Can't put in words how much I am anticipating the release.

Second, to all those who claim nobody expected an Indian faction, take a look at this post from a couple years back.

So far 1,2,4,7, and 8 have all been confirmed.
The only revealed faction not predicted was the Legiones.

Now back to my regularly scheduled lurking.


As interesting as this discussion is I'm not sure this is the right thread for it.

I'll contribute by trying to get the thread back on topic.
1. Pergamon -- preview already available.
2. Bosphorean Kingdom-- a hellenic faction with a nice variety of native scythians & thracians
3. Belgae-- already has a small entry in the EB website, where they state starting territories, would be in a position to disrupt gaul and sweboz expansions, along with through rebellions giving the casse someone to fight in britain.
4. Boii-- an eastern europe celt faction, in my opinion at this time was better organized politically then the alternative illyrians tribe, keeps rome from heading north east to quickly and Epirus focus on the Balkans. EB addded a unit or 2 specific for the Boii in the last update.
5. Arevaci-- celtiberians, highlights the diversity of peoples in the iberian peninsula, metal working, coin minting, urbanized into oppida, subjugated their neighbors, make & broke alliances, a diversity of weapons and fighting styles, led the resistance along with the Belli against the Romans.
6. Atropatene-- an ancient diadochi kingdom in Azerbaijan, I can't find to many records about them but they were independent of the Seleucids. I admit I don't know much about their fighting style but imagine it to be simiar to the Hai and the Seleucids. Would give armenia someone to compete against for control of Caucasus and another thorn in the side of the gray death or an ally/bufferstate against parthian western expansion.
7. Gandhara--Something needs to be done about India, the current system of reelling to parthian control gives disruptive results, akin to what happen with Arabian Peninsula in pre-Saba EB. To represent the Mauryan empire would be out of the question but it would be nice to have a Mauryan northwestern satrap faction in game, taxilla from what i've read was a provincial capital.
8. Massyli-- Numidians faction, guarantees Carthage will have to fight for dominance in North Africa.
9. Nabataea-- Northern Arabian kingdom, access to red sea and arab trade routes, ramained independent until conquest by Traijan, expanded territory north into jordan at cost of weaken Seleucids.
10. Empty-- this faction slot should remain open for scripting purposes.

[Populus Romanus]

Thats some pretty accurate stuff there, Sir Edward. I dunno about Gandhara or Atropatene, though. Gandhara would be sandwhiched by the Arche Seleukeia and the Takshahila, and Atropatene was a pawn in the struggles of Armenia and Parthia.

[ziegenpeter]

Thats some pretty accurate stuff there, Sir Edward. I dunno about Gandhara or Atropatene, though. Gandhara would be sandwhiched by the Arche Seleukeia and the Takshahila, and Atropatene was a pawn in the struggles of Armenia and Parthia.
I think by Gandhara he means Taxashila

And I believe the extension to the east is only for the indian regions. You can somewhat figure it out from the map screen shots

[bobbin]

Taksashila and Gandhara are basically the same thing.

[Populus Romanus]

He mentioned "a Mauryan satrapy" and Gandhara as two seperate entities on his list.

[Arjos]

Taksashila is in Gandhara :P

[ziegenpeter]

He mentioned "a Mauryan satrapy" and Gandhara as two seperate entities on his list.
No.

Taksashila is in Gandhara :P As everybody can already see on the EBI map... Its no rocket science

[Arjos]

As everybody can already see on the EBI map... Its no rocket science

Eh eh eh ^^

Anyway Sir Edward's list is pretty much what I'd like to see, hope Meroe and Illyria make it in aswell though :)

[Ca Putt]

the post is rather old - before bosphorans, Massi... Numidians, Takshila and Boii were revealed.

So he basically suggests: north-indians
with the sidenote:

To represent the Mauryan empire would be out of the question but it would be nice to have a Mauryan northwestern satrap faction in game, taxilla from what i've read was a provincial capital.

with what he's hit the nail on the head, props for that one!

[ziegenpeter]

I figure Sir Edward could be right except for Atropatene, who's place is taken by the Lugiones.
I could live with that list

[fomalhaut]

Media Atropetene sounds so interesting though!

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The more I look over this history of the time frame, the more I feel that Cyrene warrants inclusion as a faction. I can't remember where I read this, but to the Mauryans, there were 5 great Hellenistic Kings of the time. The kings of Macedon, Epeiros, Syria, Egypt, and Cyrene. Also, Maga's unsuccessful attempt at invading Egypt proper was very worrisome for the Ptolemies, he reached at least as far as Paraitonion. Cyrene would provide the necessary counterweight to the Ptolemies while also not needing an additional culture slot like Meroe would. It would also stop that silly eastern Carthaginian expansion.

[LusitanianWolf]

Good point!

From the most wisest of the sourses (wiki XD)

In 276 BC Magas crowned himself king and declared de facto independence, marrying the daughter of the Seleucid king and forming with him an alliance in order to invade Egypt. The invasion was unsuccessful and in 250 BC, after Magas' death, the city was reabsorbed into Ptolemaic Egypt. Cyrenaica became part of the Ptolemaic empire controlled from Alexandria, and became Roman territory in 96 BC when Ptolemy Apion bequeathed Cyrenaica to Rome. In 74 BC the territory was formally transformed into a Roman province.
Independence in 276, 3 years before game start! I can already imagine the faction intro =D
How would be their armies, like ptolies but fielding lybian-like regionals?

[Arjos]

Good call, still if they manage something like Taksashila for Meroe, I'd be happier :D

[LusitanianWolf]

Good call, still if they manage something like Taksashila for Meroe, I'd be happier :D
x2 :yes:
Cyrene would have the advantage of also disrupting unhistorical eastern cathaginian expansion but the team already noted that they could make that less probable by other means, and that we cant judge how AI factions will act by EB1.

[Pikenier]

The more I look over this history of the time frame, the more I feel that Cyrene warrants inclusion as a faction. I can't remember where I read this, but to the Mauryans, there were 5 great Hellenistic Kings of the time. The kings of Macedon, Epeiros, Syria, Egypt, and Cyrene. Also, Maga's unsuccessful attempt at invading Egypt proper was very worrisome for the Ptolemies, he reached at least as far as Paraitonion. Cyrene would provide the necessary counterweight to the Ptolemies while also not needing an additional culture slot like Meroe would. It would also stop that silly eastern Carthaginian expansion.

Sure Cyrene was important at the games start and you are right about the Mauryans considering Magas as one of the most important hellenistic kings. But the faction was already defeated in 250 bc as it was merely a civil war situation there and the troops would not be any different to the Ptolies. The Kushites reigning from Meroe would be a much more exotic and fresh choice for eastern north africa. I would be much happier when they include them. What I can remember the "only" reason against them is that due to culture slot limits the family members portraits would feature white men. Is this such a great problem, or just nitpicking?

Either way there has to be a faction in this area to rival the heartlands of the Ptolemaic Empire (same as Numidia helping Carthage not to feel so lonely). And Africa has only three factions so far, there has to be more attention to this continent. Ideal case on near the Ptolies and a 2nd faction near Carthage. :-)
And Meroe would have an even better position on the map than Cyrene from a gameplay point of view. It could expand either against Egypt or to Arabia and rival the Sab'yn. Same in the other direction. When playing Seleucids or other factions invading Egypt they would have something extra to the south. Cyrene on the other hand would not feature the same it would only be an earlier "Carthagian" Invasion that would anyway occur when they have defeated Cyrene. When playing Egypt (or invading Seleucids) you would even without Cyrene face a strong enemy on your western border. Meroe on the other hand offers a unique position on the map. ;-)

[Arjos]

Totally agree to the need of factions near Egypt, the Ptoleis have a far too rich power base otherwise...
Nabatu and Meroe would be very cool, only con for Kyrene is yet another hellenistic state :P

[bobbin]

Neither Kyrene or Meroe will be a faction for reasons that have been stated many times before.

[Arjos]

Given how Meroe absorbed the egyptian culture and had extensive contact with the Greeks and Arabia, couldn't be acceptable to have them as "eastern" culture?
Only problem would be the language I guess...

[bobbin]

No it wouldn't, they were black Africans, Egyptian depictions always show them as being considerably darker than the Egyptians, it would be wrong to represent them as being anything other than that.

[Arjos]

Ohhhh right I forgot about the FM pics :D
That's a shame, still thanks for the quick responses :)

[Hax]

I think the point that bobbin is also trying to make is that while Meroe retained their African heritage, while Taksashila (and Gandhara as a whole) had known a lot of Persian influence. If I recall correctly, Gandhara was conquered by Darius the Great and paid tribute afterwards to the Persian King.

[Arjos]

I know very little about Meroe, but I read that they did absorb the egyptian pantheon, customs and later on had contacts with Greeks...
They never were conquered yes, but seems pretty similar to the Romans integrating the greek culture...

[moonburn]

as i said if the east and western greeks merge into a single culture and since takashila as the persian culture meroe as a decent chance at it but the fact that i´m sure is that the arevaci or a keltiberian federation is going to appear in eb2

altough i´m not sure if the pritanoi are keltik

[Arjos]

altough i´m not sure if the pritanoi are keltik

If the urnfield culture connection with the Keltoi is accepted, then yes; otherwise they share common close ancestors and shared the same material culture by the 4th century BC...

[fomalhaut]

There does need to be another African faction besides Massylia, i mean damn! look at how much space it takes up on the map and the fact that the two most wealthy factions are all alone dominating it

[B-Wing]

I personally expect a Western Numidian faction, but that doesn't really affect east Africa...

I like the idea of merging West Greek and East Greek, but the team has clearly made up their mind at this point. If anyone wanted to make a sub-mod after EB2's release with a Meroe faction, that would be awesome.

Also, as far as the game is concerned, it doesn't really matter whether Pritonai are Celtic or something else, since they're just going to be part of the Barbarian culture.

[stratigos vasilios]

Hey I'm sure most of you have stumbled on these maps, but here's two maps to hopefully promote more discussion of what could potentially be a new faction in EBII.

Ancient East Hemisphere 300BC (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_300bc.jpg)

Ancient East Hemisphere 200BC (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200bc.jpg)

Here's the original site (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/maps.html), I found it very interesting and enjoyable to cycle through all the maps.

[Arjos]

Nice!

Here (http://geacron.com/home-en/?sid=GeaCron875942)'s another one with an interactive map going from 3000 BC to 2011, it's quite good for a general idea, but isn't too "researched"...

And yes, wondering which factions will be in, is getting painfully funny XD

[-Praetor-]

Hey I'm sure most of you have stumbled on these maps, but here's two maps to hopefully promote more discussion of what could potentially be a new faction in EBII.

Ancient East Hemisphere 300BC (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_300bc.jpg)

Ancient East Hemisphere 200BC (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200bc.jpg)

Here's the original site (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/maps.html), I found it very interesting and enjoyable to cycle through all the maps.

Quite enjoyable, but if my calculations are right, I believe Saba is misplaced, too much to the west. Same I think with the scordisci, too far up north. Marcomanni were never that far south, that area was occupied by the Boii at that time.

Fun maps though :2thumbsup: It´s nice to have a panoptic view over so many peoples.

[B-Wing]

Sorry if I'm retreading a dead horse, but has Tylis been officially ruled out? I can't remember much discussion of them, but they seem like a really good option.

[Arjos]

Sorry if I'm retreading a dead horse, but has Tylis been officially ruled out? I can't remember much discussion of them, but they seem like a really good option.

No one knows, Mauryans were ruled out and "hey presto" here is Taksashila :P
But that's the beauty of it for me :)

[fomalhaut]

I want the Koishi people of the southern tip of Afrika! or the Chinese wearing Lorica Segmentata

HUGE QUESTION; Will the 'Kingdom of the East' be alluded to? Obviously no direct communications (?) but when Taxashila or Greco-Baktrians are so far east, they can't be ignorant of the biggest trade partner and huge Kingdom not far away

[stratigos vasilios]

Here (http://geacron.com/home-en/?sid=GeaCron875942)'s another one with an interactive map going from 3000 BC to 2011, it's quite good for a general idea, but isn't too "researched"...

I like this, I've been playing with it. Pretty interesting.

How many faction slots are left for the unknown factions, four? Two? I can't remember.

[Populus Romanus]

I would like to see Axum under Semetic culture slot. YES, I know it would look stupid with Ethiopians looking like Arabs. I DON'T CARE, Axum for the win.

[Arjos]

How many faction slots are left for the unknown factions, four? Two? I can't remember.

Four, some might be used for scripting purposes though...

[Pikenier]

I hope not - some areas are still missing factions. Or are looking empty atleast.
Don´t know whether there will be factions filling these parts, but Arabia and Africa are vast landmasses with too few local peoples. Even when considering the great deserts there, they have enough space to implent a second numidian/mauretanian/garamantes faction in the northwest, as well as Nubians in the Southeast, next to a Southern- or Northern Arab tribe.

Or when looking on the europeans there is enough room in Iberia to implent a second Iberian state and a scythian/eastern germanic tribe in todays Ukraine.
Other candidates as Belgae, Scordisci/Illyrians or Thracians/Galatians have much fewer space on the map and would make their areas very crowded.

Aside from them I don´t think any of the four remaining factions will be placed in Asia (except Arabia) as this continent seems well deployed with factions already. Mostly thanks to the large realm of the Seleucid kings leaving not much space for any other factions. Media Atropatene or a nomad faction between Sauromatae, Parthians and Saka would not survive long under AI control.

[Arjos]

I hope not - some areas are still missing factions. Or are looking empty atleast.

I know, but engine's limits are what they are :S

[B-Wing]

I'm almost certain the team has stated that they intend to make all 30 faction slots playable... but not necessarily in the first release. So I don't think any will be reserved for scripting.


I hope not - some areas are still missing factions. Or are looking empty atleast.
Don´t know whether there will be factions filling these parts, but Arabia and Africa are vast landmasses with too few local peoples. Even when considering the great deserts there, they have enough space to implent a second numidian/mauretanian/garamantes faction in the northwest, as well as Nubians in the Southeast, next to a Southern- or Northern Arab tribe.

I agree with your sentiments. The team has stated that they have been working on northern Arabian units and reshaping the north Arabian provinces, so I think it's almost a lock that there will be a new faction in that region.

Nubians are highly unlikely due to the need for a new culture slot to represent their ethnicity. But I think they would be an awesome addition, regardless.

I seem to remember a team member stating that having a west Numidian faction would be too redundant. And I understand that sentiment from a gameplay perspective. But in that same sentiment, I'd prefer the west Numidians be chosen to represent the faction rather than the east, since they're right up against Carthage's heartland. I don't know anything about the Mauretanians during EB's period. Were they united enough to constitute a faction?


Aside from them I don´t think any of the four remaining factions will be placed in Asia (except Arabia) as this continent seems well deployed with factions already. Mostly thanks to the large realm of the Seleucid kings leaving not much space for any other factions. Media Atropatene or a nomad faction between Sauromatae, Parthians and Saka would not survive long under AI control.

I agree with you here, too. But if popular opinion counts for anything, a lot of fans think that Media Atropatene would be a great faction addition.

[Arjos]

I'm really rooting for the Arevaci, Ardiaei, Nabatu and Media or Belgae...
All representing "new" cultures ^^
Losing Nubia is a real pitty though :(

[d'Arthez]

For some reason I would not be surprised if there will be an additional steppe faction. Probably not in the first release. It was stated that the first release probably would not have all 30 faction slots used.

[Populus Romanus]

Kartli would be superior to Atropatene while still adding to the region. Atropatene was a pawn of greater powers (Armenia and Parthia) whereas Kartli survived the ages and did things.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Was going through my old computer and I found this old pic that Aemilius Paulus sent me once. He claimed that he had an account that was allowed in the EB private forums, but he was so full of it like 60% of the time. This pic is dated 2009, I can't believe it has been that long already.
https://i.imgur.com/jM5eo.jpg

[Montmorency]

Isn't that from Mount & Blade? He did like the Hegemonia mod for it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Isn't that from Mount & Blade? He did like the Hegemonia mod for it.

Probably. I knew it wasn't from the EB forums, because like I said, he talked a lot of bluff from time to time.

[stratigos vasilios]

he talked a lot of bluff from time to time.

Probably related to Moros... Ha! I kid, I kid! :clown:

[fomalhaut]

Kartli would be superior to Atropatene while still adding to the region. Atropatene was a pawn of greater powers (Armenia and Parthia) whereas Kartli survived the ages and did things.

hahaha i really love this part, i'll forward this to EB central and they will be immediately moved by its poignancy ;P

[LusitanianWolf]

Isn't that from Mount & Blade? He did like the Hegemonia mod for it.
Yes, it is from the Hegemony mod, I've played it :yes:

[Arjos]

We all know that the team is laughing as we speak of Kartli or Atropatene, since they'll add Kappadokia XD

[fomalhaut]

i want another eastern faction! *slams utensils on table*

[stratigos vasilios]

We all know that the team is laughing as we speak of Kartli or Atropatene, since they'll add Kappadokia XD

Haha I can only imagine how silly we look guessing when we're completely off!

[Moros]

Probably related to Moros... Ha! I kid, I kid! :clown:
I have a pretty mama.

[Brennus]

Hey I'm sure most of you have stumbled on these maps, but here's two maps to hopefully promote more discussion of what could potentially be a new faction in EBII.

Ancient East Hemisphere 300BC (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_300bc.jpg)

Ancient East Hemisphere 200BC (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_200bc.jpg)

Here's the original site (http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/maps.html), I found it very interesting and enjoyable to cycle through all the maps.

Great post as usual stratigos. Ive seen these maps a few times on Wikipedia but only just noticed it lists the Yuezhi as Tocharians rather than Aryans... controversial.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

There is a lot of academic debate about whether the Yuezhi are to be considered Indo-Iranian or Tocharian, or even turcic (although the arguments for the latter claim are rather weak). Given how many historians make the connection between the Yuezhi and Tocharians, I would perhaps not call it controversial. In fact, there has been some arguments made that the name Yuezhi, which in old chinese sounds something like "Ngwatieg" may actually be a chinese attmpt at rendering the word "tokhar". Further, greaco-roman sources mention the in the invasion of Baktria by nomads a number of tribes, among them one called Tocharii, and this invasion is in chinese sources ascribed to the Yuezhi. This too seems to link the Yuezhi to the Tocharians. That the Kushanas, whom the chinese still called Yuezhi, used Tocharian in some official texts also points this way, and Baktria later bacame known as Tokharistan.

However, one of the more plausible explanations is that the Yuezhi contained a large contingent of Tocharian speakers, but were not exclusively Tocharian, much like the Xiongnu is often described as an altaic people, altough some chinese sources describe them as red haired, which seems to imply the inclusion of Indo-european peoples within their ranks. Genreally, steppe tribal names often do not refer to a specific ethnic group, but is more of a collective name for all the tribes within a larger federation, much like the Huns were probably made up both of Turkic, Iranian and Scythian/Sarmatian people, and the Mongols that invaded Europe in the 13th century in fact contained pepole of various ethnic and linguistic origin. The Yuezhi most likely contained several diverse ethnic and linguistic groups, but it does not seem implausible that a subtsantial part of them were Tocharian, and the Tocahrian theory seems to be the most prevalent veiw among scholars today.

[Apollon_BE]

Hi everybody,

I also have some suggestions and I know that shurely most of them already were called :) So have a look:
-->
Barbarian Culture:
- Caledonians/Picts (Scotland)
- Brigantes (Northern England + Part of Ireland)
- Iceni (Eastern England)
- Belgae (Belgium & Southern England)
- Aedui (between Loire & Saone)
- Arverni (middle east of France)
- Boii (Northern Italy + Bohemia)
- Sweboz/Suebi (Germany)
- Lugii (South Poland)
- Gothones (Baltic Sea)
- Lusitanians (Portugal)
- Callaeci/Astures (Northern Spain)
- Celtiberians (Central Spain)
- Dacians (Rumania)
- Illyrian Tribes (Croatia/Bosnia)

Nomadic Culture:
- Scythians (Blach Sea Coast of Rumania/Ucraine)
- Sarmatians/Roxolani/Aorsi (Ucraine/South Russia)
- Alani (Caspian Sea)
- Saka (Southern Kazakhstan/Kyrgistan)
- Yuezhi/Kushana (Central Asia/ Eastern China)
- Xiongnu/Huns? (Mongolia/Eastern China)

Eastern-Persian Culture:
- Parthia
- Greco-Bactrian (Afghanistan)
- Armenia/Hayastan (Eastern Turkey)
- Atropatene/Media (North-West Iran)

Indian or Eastern Culture:
- Gandhara (North Pakistan)
- Magadha/Maurya (North India)

Greek Culture:
- Seleucids (Lebanon, Syia, Iraq, Iran)
- Ptolemaics (Egypt, Cyprus, Southern Turkey)
- Macedons (Northern Greece, Macedonia, Boeotia)
- Sparta (Southern Peloponnes)
- Pontic (North-Eastern Turkey)
- Pergamon (West-Turkey)
- Syracuse (East Sicily)
- Bosporians (Crimea)
- Epeiros + Magna Graecia (Albania, Southern Italy)
- Aetolian League (Lokris)
- Independent Greek Cities (Athen, Massilia, Cyrene, Rhodes, Creta, Elis, Byzantion, Bythnia)

Roman Culture:
- Romans (Central Italy)

Semitic Culture:
- Carthage (Tunisia, Andalusia, Baleares, Sardina, Corse, West Sicily, West Lybia)
- Numidians (Algeria)
- Garamantes (Sahara, Lybia)
- Nabataeans (Jordan, Red Sea Coast)
- Sabaeans (Yemen)

African or Semitic Culture:
- Meroe/Nubians (Sudan)
- Aksum (Eritrea, Ethiopia)
- Mauri/Moors (Morocco)

So that's it, I know there are a lot of factions, but not all of them have to be included as playable factions.
And of course it depends on which date the game will start and how big the map is.

[bobbin]

All the factions in EB will be in EBII (with the exception of the Casse who became the Pritanoi) so you don't need to list them. Apart from that quite a few of those suggestions don't fit with our time frame (272BC-14AD) or map, i.e. Mauryans, Xiongnu, Kushans, Picts and Gothones (probably around in our time frame but way too little is known about them and they would not be organised enough to merit being a faction)

Welcome to the forums btw!

[TheLastDays]

All the factions in EB will be in EBII (with the exception of the Casse who became the Pritanoi) so you don't need to list them. Apart from that quite a few of those suggestions don't fit with our time frame (272BC-14AD) or map, i.e. Mauryans, Xiongnu, Kushans, Picts and Gothones (probably around in our time frame but way too little is known about them and they would not be organised enough to merit being a faction)

Welcome to the forums btw!

It is veeeeeery interesting that you did not list the Yuezhi among those not on the map :yes:

Welcome to the forum, Apollon! ~:wave:

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

It is veeeeeery interesting that you did not list the Yuezhi among those not on the map :yes:


You think?

[TheLastDays]

Sometimes I do, yes :yes:

[fightermedic]

Sometimes I do, yes :yes:
but sir.. this is the internet! you just can't do it
:stop: thinking right there!

awesome comment ;) have some balloon :balloon2:

[bobbin]

It is veeeeeery interesting that you did not list the Yuezhi among those not on the map :yes:

I just forget them, the Yeuzhi will not be a faction.

[TheLastDays]

I just forget them, the Yeuzhi will not be a faction.

More conspiracy and diversion tactics!
The Yeuzhi won't, but what about the Yuezhi?! :clown:

[stratigos vasilios]

Haha well done OTLD! :laugh:

[bobbin]

Rats, you found me out!

[Brennus]

Hi everybody,

I also have some suggestions and I know that shurely most of them already were called :) So have a look:
-->
Barbarian Culture:
- Caledonians/Picts (Scotland)
- Brigantes (Northern England + Part of Ireland)
- Iceni (Eastern England)
- Belgae (Belgium & Southern England)
- Aedui (between Loire & Saone)
- Arverni (middle east of France)
- Boii (Northern Italy + Bohemia)
- Sweboz/Suebi (Germany)
- Lugii (South Poland)
- Gothones (Baltic Sea)
- Lusitanians (Portugal)
- Callaeci/Astures (Northern Spain)
- Celtiberians (Central Spain)
- Dacians (Rumania)
- Illyrian Tribes (Croatia/Bosnia)

Nomadic Culture:
- Scythians (Blach Sea Coast of Rumania/Ucraine)
- Sarmatians/Roxolani/Aorsi (Ucraine/South Russia)
- Alani (Caspian Sea)
- Saka (Southern Kazakhstan/Kyrgistan)
- Yuezhi/Kushana (Central Asia/ Eastern China)
- Xiongnu/Huns? (Mongolia/Eastern China)

Eastern-Persian Culture:
- Parthia
- Greco-Bactrian (Afghanistan)
- Armenia/Hayastan (Eastern Turkey)
- Atropatene/Media (North-West Iran)

Indian or Eastern Culture:
- Gandhara (North Pakistan)
- Magadha/Maurya (North India)

Greek Culture:
- Seleucids (Lebanon, Syia, Iraq, Iran)
- Ptolemaics (Egypt, Cyprus, Southern Turkey)
- Macedons (Northern Greece, Macedonia, Boeotia)
- Sparta (Southern Peloponnes)
- Pontic (North-Eastern Turkey)
- Pergamon (West-Turkey)
- Syracuse (East Sicily)
- Bosporians (Crimea)
- Epeiros + Magna Graecia (Albania, Southern Italy)
- Aetolian League (Lokris)
- Independent Greek Cities (Athen, Massilia, Cyrene, Rhodes, Creta, Elis, Byzantion, Bythnia)

Roman Culture:
- Romans (Central Italy)

Semitic Culture:
- Carthage (Tunisia, Andalusia, Baleares, Sardina, Corse, West Sicily, West Lybia)
- Numidians (Algeria)
- Garamantes (Sahara, Lybia)
- Nabataeans (Jordan, Red Sea Coast)
- Sabaeans (Yemen)

African or Semitic Culture:
- Meroe/Nubians (Sudan)
- Aksum (Eritrea, Ethiopia)
- Mauri/Moors (Morocco)

So that's it, I know there are a lot of factions, but not all of them have to be included as playable factions.
And of course it depends on which date the game will start and how big the map is.

Welcome to the forum! For a first post i think it sets a record for size. With regards to the factions listed I hope you wont mind a constructive critique of the list you have provided?

Firstly the three Brythonic tribes you have listed. In addition to the team already ruling out any other British tribes the problem is we cannot be certain when these tribal groups formed. Although ceramic evidence from Britain does show continuity from the 5th century BC until the Roman invasion this would only work for the Catuvellauni/Trinobantes (Casse) and Atrebates (Belgae). The ceramic evidence is lacking for Northern Britain and much of Scotland, thus we wannot be sure when the Brigantes and Caledonii came into eixstence. If our experience of Native American nations is any guids then it is likely these tribal groups only emerged as a result of the Claudian invasion of 43AD.

The Belgae may or may not be a faction, there are some strong arguments in their favour and as yet they have not been ruled out (there is a thread kicking around here which i started which discusses the Belgae more throroughly if you want a more in depth analysis).

The Aedui, Arverni, Sweboz, Lugii and Lusitanians are all confirmed factions and will appear in EBII.

The Dacians (in the form of the Getae) are likewise a confirmed faction.

The Celtiberians are a strong possiblity of a faction, the Arevaci in particular were an expansive, dominant force in the region who would be suitable as an EBII faction.

The Callaeci and Astures were not unified enough, nor developed enough to warrant being an EBII faction. This lack of unity enabled them to remain outside of Roman control until Octavians campaigns however there are far more suitable nations to include.

The Illyrians would make a suitable faction although by this point in history they were second rate powers behind Celtic tribes like the Scordisci. Furthermore the EBII has, as far as I know, ruled them out.

I cannot comment on the Gothones as I know too little about them.

The Scythians were in terminal decline by 272BC, in the processs of being absorbed or driven out by the Sarmatians.

The Sarmatians and Saka are EBII factions.

The Alani are represented by the Sarmatians, we cannot be sure if they were a seperate tribal group by this point.

The Yuezhi and Xiongu were not present on the EBII map in 272BC. The Yuezhi do not appear in this area until c.190BC and the Xiongu/Huns not until the 4th century AD.

The Parthians, Baktrians and Hayasadan are all EBII factions whilst there are theories that Atropatene may also be a faction, as yet the team has not commented.

The Indians are likewise represented by the satrapy of Takashilla (spelling is likely wrong).

Seleucids, Ptolemies, Bosporans, Pergamon, Pontus and Epeiros are all confirmed EBII factions.

Sparta and the minor Greeks are currently represented in EB by the Koinon Hellenon but the EBII team has said that this arrangement may be altered.

As yet no word on the Aetolians, although another Greek faction is extremely unlikely.

Syracuse, although a favourite of many was in a slow decline by 272BC. Although earlier tyrants like Dionysus I had proven to be very international rulers, and although a thorn in the side of Carthage for centuries, Syracuse was increasingly a Roman satellite during the EBII timeframe (with one disastrous exception being the second Punic war). Furthermore Syracuse has been rules out by the team.

Romans are confirmed, much to the horror of everyone who fights them.

Carthage and Sabeans are likewise confirmed as are the Numidians. The remaining factions will either not be included as they were not sufficiently unified (Garamantines) or due to limitations with culture slots (Meroe, Askum).

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

The Yuezhi and Xiongu were not present on the EBII map in 272BC. The Yuezhi do not appear in this area until c.190BC and the Xiongu/Huns not until the 4th century AD.


Just a short note on this: We do actually have the Xiongnu taking control of the Tarim Basin already in 175 BC under the Shan-yü Modun, and possibly even making forays into the Ferghana valley. This was part of their conquest of the Yuezhi and other minor states in the southern Tarim, which forced the Da Yuezhi out of the Tarim and into the Ily river valley and Issyk-köl area, and eventually Central Asia, where they formed the Kushan Empire. Hence, the Xiongnu were present on our map long before the AD era, however, they were too far east in 272 BC.

[bobbin]

The Alani are represented by the Sarmatians, we cannot be sure if they were a seperate tribal group by this point.

Just another quick note, the Alani are not part of the Sarmatians in EB, they are found in one of the rebel regions north of the Parthians. They were most likely around by EB's start date, although they only appear in written records around 100BC, where they are called the Yancai.

[Brennus]

Gentlemen, I am richer for your knowledge. Thank you.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Just another quick note, the Alani are not part of the Sarmatians in EB, they are found in one of the rebel regions north of the Parthians. They were most likely around by EB's start date, although they only appear in written records around 100BC, where they are called the Yancai.

As a matter of fact, there exist a few differing theories about the origins of the Alani. One of the most intriguing identify them, through their name, with the Wusun of the Ily Valley, themselves often identified with the Issedones of Herodotos (the name Wusun is pronounced something like Oo-sun). This would fit with them moving wsetwards from their homelands, pushed by the Xiongnu, in the mid 2nd century BC (they defeated the remaining Yuezhi in the 130's BC), eventually arriving in the area where we find them showing up as Yancai some 30 years later.

Another theory connects them with the Asii of Pompeius Trogus, however, and thus the leading tribe in the nomadic onslaught that destroyed the Graeco-Bactrian kingdom, and flung Parthia into its dark ages. This is particularly interesting, as it mentions them as dominating the Tocharii, usually identified as the Yuezhi, which seeems consistent with the Wusun defeating the latter in the Ily area, but could have some interesting implictaions on the settling of the Yuezhi in Baktria, and the foundation of the Kushan Empire.

This is all based on a lot of conjecture however, and properly identifying the different political units in the steppes is always difficult, as ethnic and linguistic boundaries are often fleeting, and the names of tribal entities change as various groups gain or lose contol over the fragile steppe federations.

[Brennus]

I just noticed bobbins occultus symbol has a bird of some kind in it. I have highlighted it for people:

3095

If you can't see it too well check out bobbins homepage, its much clearer there.

Does anyone know much apology ornithology? From what I can see it looks like some kind of raptor, and what little I do know leads me to suggest its from warmer climes.

[TheLastDays]

If it's a bird and I see what you see I'd tend towards an eagle not a vulture like someone suggested in the other thread...

[Arjos]

I will accept that image only as horse's front legs, ie celtiberians! :D
Btw lately I've read how Atropatene was just a mountain kingdom, impregnable, but able only to switch allegiances; so not so sure about them anymore...

[Brennus]

I will accept that image only as horse's front legs, ie celtiberians! :D
Btw lately I've read how Atropatene was just a mountain kingdom, impregnable, but able only to switch allegiances; so not so sure about them anymore...

Until people began suggesting Atropatene I had never heard of them. I would still say, from what I know at least, that they would be a power, after all Takashila (most likely incorrectly spelled) and Kimerrios Bosporos are included and neither of them amounted to much in terms of expansion (certainly the Mauryan Empire itself did but it took until Demetrios of Baktria to form another powerful expansive sate in Northern India, at least as far as I know).

With you 110% of the way in asking for the Celtiberians.