Its Chavez innit [Archive]

Tribesman

08-14-2007, 22:58

I was just wondering if anyone would be able to list a bunch of bad things that the government of Venezuela does that other governments don't do ?

Crazed Rabbit

08-14-2007, 23:12

So 'it's okay because he did it too' has become a legitimate argument? Or is it just the only defense you have for Chavez?

:rolleyes:

Crazed Rabbit

Boyar Son

08-14-2007, 23:21

Everything fresh or we'll pick up where we left off here (such as countering others arguments fromthe other thread here)

Tribesman

08-14-2007, 23:23

So 'it's okay because he did it too' has become a legitimate argument?
Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy .

Bijo

08-14-2007, 23:36

Xiahou

08-14-2007, 23:45

Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy .
If you're trying to show what "bad" a country does compared to other countries yes(conditionally- setting aside any degrees or nuance). But, if someone wants to point out something bad, it can stand on it's own regardless of who else does it.

You're trying to claim that someone can't say anything bad about a place if another country engages in the same behavior. This is not true. It's known as the tu quoque fallacy.

Tribesman

08-15-2007, 00:51

You're trying to claim that someone can't say anything bad about a place if another country engages in the same behavior.
Not at all .
Since there is a widely held recurring opinion on this forum that the present government in Venezuela is really really bad then they must be able to come up with examples of its badness , for its badness to be really really bad then it must be things that other governments don't do .

If they cannot then it isn't a really really bad government is it , its just another government and they have for some unknown reason developed a strange fetish about it .

Its simple isn't it , if the Venezuelan government is so bad then what does it do that other governments don't do that set it apart from the rest ?

But, if someone wants to point out something bad, it can stand on it's own regardless of who else does it.

You see thats the clincher Xiahou , it doesn't stand on its own the way people have tended to present it . It is presented as bad simply because Chavez does it .
Hence the "its Chavez innit":yes:

Boyar Son

08-15-2007, 01:38

So your reasoning is, Chavez is such a horrible person and should be easy to rip apart, but any reason we can come up with has to be something that other governments dont do and if it isnt than Chavez is just another plain government.

Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it, and another migrain to the US. Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries, and now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries and support and better opinions of chavez. Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments ( and yes countArach I know the domino theory). And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil (and we're paying our enemies if you think about it) also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...

Husar

08-15-2007, 01:51

Tribesman is right and I don't really feel threatened by Chavez.
How people from the mighty US can cower in fear when they hear his name is beyond me.

Oh and by the way Cossack, it's not Chavez' fault that you are dependant on oil, you're just being selfish there IMO, you could be happy that he sells you his oil. I'm inclined to find it highly ironic that the US is so dependant on oil, most of which is owned by it's enemies.:juggle2:

And I hate freedom because I don't have a driver's license in case you were wondering.:dizzy2:

Boyar Son

08-15-2007, 01:53

KukriKhan

08-15-2007, 02:05

Well your from Germany..the hell do you know what chavez is doing?

Ya think he hates germany? no, US. ur statement is... pretty much nuts....

This is how it starts. Stop. Now. Show respect, to get respect.

Boyar Son

08-15-2007, 02:21

Tribesman

08-15-2007, 02:21

Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it
Any government is a potential threat .

Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries
So Venezuela is doing what America decided it couldn't afford to do as much anymore .

So your reasoning is, Chavez is such a horrible person and should be easy to rip apart
Yep he is an idiot , he has some stupid policies and very bad implementation of some of his good policies , its easy to rip apart , but then again it does help if you understand the faults of those policies (or perhaps even know what the policies are).

but any reason we can come up with has to be something that other governments dont do and if it isnt than Chavez is just another plain government.

Nope , people contend that the government is worse than other governments , so they should be able to show that it does worse things than other governments .
However if they can only show that it does the same as other governments then it surely is just another government isn't it , and the "worse" bit is baseless .

now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries.
The US has always recieved bad opinions from south and central america , it is to do mainly with its foriegn policies , supplying terrorists , overthrowing governments and backing dictatorships .
So that is venezuelas fault now is it ?

Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments

Leftist governments are elected pretty much worldwide , so are rightist and centrist , its a thing called democratic choice .

And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil
errrrr...thats just business and politics isn't it .

also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...
Ah yes the Bolivarian revolution , thats the thing where the countries go back to their post colonial roots isn't it .
Making their own descicions themselves instead of doing what superpowers tell them to do .

BTW your last post doesn't make much sense at all and is unneccesarily inflammatory .

Ice

08-15-2007, 02:35

Well, to name one, Venezuela will start evicting foreign nationals who criticize their government.

Tribesman

08-15-2007, 02:42

Boyar Son

08-15-2007, 02:42

these argument are in order with yours.

1. I'm talking about chavez being a potential threat (bigger than others).

2.No Chavez is gaining good opinion, support, and influence. He's south americas new "best friend" now.

3.you keep mentioning these policies but do you know what they are? none that were already mentioned I supposed.

4.."Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy " where does it say worse?

5.that..but mostly with no US aid chavez will help them and that will make us the bad guy, its what chavez wants.

6.that answer shows me you dont understand the "domino effect". It seemed like you probably did...

7."thats just business and politics isn't it." well thats a good cover for it huh?

8. yeah instead of chavez convincing his fellow leaders he can just let the money do the talking now right?

KukriKhan

08-15-2007, 02:50

I'm tired of people who dont pretty much pay attention to chavez or dont live somewhere where chavez threatens comin' up to me sayin a miiillliiioonn times

":furious3: well in my opinion (IMO) chavez is not a threat. cant you read chavez isnt the only one to do this.. so he musnt be bad, oh but I think hes bad and easy to rip and your just not doing a good job of it.:furious3: "

Its like everything that I write is garbage, but anyone who gives a crappy come back at me wins the argument automatically..

I hear your anger, man, and understand where you're coming from.

I gotta point out, though, that this is the backroom of the Org. We don't call people, or their views "nuts", or challenge fellow members' ability to have or express opinions on any matter.

We insist that posters here give their fellow posters the respect and consideration that they also desire for themselves and their views.

Nobody "wins" arguments back here. In the 7 years of its existence, not 1 single issue has been definitively decided. Only discussed, examined, twisted every which way to Sunday. There is value in that, for some of us, because we might read some idea that we hadn't come across before, or considered before. And we might learn something from that encounter.

So, my advice: take it easy; listen to the other guys; contribute your own point of view (civilly), then move on to the next topic.

Crazed Rabbit

08-15-2007, 02:53

Husar, I'm certainly not arguing that Chavez is dangerous to the USA. To Columbia, maybe, but I have no fear of what he may do to us.

Why I argue against him is because he's leading his country done a stupid socialistic path being held up by high oil prices. He's also a demagogue who seeks more power for himself.

Yep he is an idiot , he has some stupid policies and very bad implementation of some of his good policies , its easy to rip apart , but then again it does help if you understand the faults of those policies (or perhaps even know what the policies are).

Care to enlighten us as to what those are?

CR

Papewaio

08-15-2007, 03:07

Chavez is a potential threat to simply put it, and another migrain to the US. Bush cut his support in south america and chavez stepped in loaning billions to cash needing countries, and now the US is paying for it with bad opinion from south american countries and support and better opinions of chavez.

The changing of donor nation in of itself cannot make Chavez the 'bad guy'... if it is good enough for the goose its good enough for the gander. You cannot bribe er give economic support then take it away and not expect those who have grown dependent on it not to look for another source. An opportunity that was created by the US that Chaves seized on.

If he is using it for nefarious purposes then those can be judged as bad...

Now leftist leaders are being elected or are leading in south americas governments ( and yes countArach I know the domino theory). And now allying himself with other oil rich countries hostile to the US means trouble as we are very dependant on oil (and we're paying our enemies if you think about it) also supporting his "Bolivarian" revolution around south america to make things worse...

Democracies are allowed to elect leaders from across the political spectrum. An attempt to limit who is elected would be a very bad thing indeed.

Now as for the dependency on oil... just invent a fusion reactor :2thumbsup: that gives more power then it takes :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: , that is economic :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: (thumbs up are proportional to difficulty) and safe to run and then see a reverse domino effect where all the nations that rely on oil and only oil collapse... far fetched... not really as all the smart oil producing nations are trying to use their oil money to invest into other money producing ventures.

Boyar Son

08-15-2007, 03:13

I wasnt expecting anything at all!

didnt call him bad guy..

Seamus Fermanagh

08-15-2007, 03:49

....not really as all the smart oil producing nations are trying to use their oil money to invest into other money producing ventures.

Is Chavez doing so?

Ice

08-15-2007, 03:50

Now then Ice , would you care to elaborate on that ?
Perhaps the actual wording of the legislation and couple that with the relevant residency and visa laws .
Is it not actually a long exising piece of law ?
A law that most other countries have ?

I'm not going to look up what you asked Tribesman because I don't feel its necessary.

I will post a news article I found on the subject, though, with quotes from Chavez himself:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1646554,00.html

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

Chavez, who has turbulent relations with the Bush Administration, has never been one to put up with those who disagree with him. He has had notable falling-outs with former confidants and insulted myriad foreign heads of state and their officials for criticizing his policies. But his newest statements were ironic, considering that what Chavez labeled a punishable offense in Venezuela is something he himself has done in the United States. Many Americans know Chavez best for calling President George W. Bush the devil at the United Nations last year. That remark, as well as similar anti-Bush comments made in Harlem on the same trip, occurred on Bush's soil.

[Chavez has also taken to attacking senior Catholic prelates lately. The Associated Press on Tuesday cited an item on state-run news agency website quoting Venezuela's President assailing Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, who had been critical of Chavez recently. "Another parrot of imperialism appeared, this time dressed as a cardinal. That's to say, another imperialist clown," Chavez reportedly said.]

Critics say that the Chavez government is becoming less and less tolerant of differing opinions. In late May, it forced opposition-aligned television station Radio Caracas Television off the air by refusing to renew its broadcasting license, and promptly opened an investigation against Globovision, the only remaining channel critical of the President. The other major privately owned television network, Venevision, has shifted its coverage from critical to favorable, leaving the broadcast landscape largely bereft of independent voices willing to challenge the government.

Chavez counters that his government encourages critical thought. "Let's read, study, discuss, debate. Ideas, ideas and more ideas!" he said on Monday. Indeed, some within government ranks have been more than willing to denounce fellow Chavez allies in recent months. Pro-Chavez lawmaker Luis Tascon suggested there was corrupt behavior afoot at the state oil company and last week summoned company president and Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez to shed light on the matter in front of the national Assembly. Also last week, outgoing Defense Minister Gen. Raul Isaias Baduel said, in his farewell speech, that Chavez's beloved "socialism of the 21st century" was a vague model that was generating unease.

Vague and undefined as Chavez's model of socialism may be, he wants everyone to sign up. He said on Sunday that 90% of Venezuelans should support his government, even though nearly 40% voted against him in presidential elections in December. His government had been fond of saying that it wishes Venezuela had a respectable opposition, rather than the current mishmash of defeated parties lacking proposals. Even that wishful democratic stance may be gone now. On Monday, Chavez acknowledged that his government wants to ideologize Venezuelan society in order to phase out an "imperialist" way of thinking imposed in the past. "They accuse us of ideologizing and I say yes, of course," Chavez said on Monday. "Who has said the contrary?" The time to differ with Chavez is over for foreign visitors and may soon be up for his domestic opponents as well.

I don't think most other countries, well ones that we respect, have these kind of laws.

Papewaio

08-15-2007, 04:06

"No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

He shoots, he scores.

Chavez gets a goal for irony! Now all he needs to do is sharpen up his wit to boot. :2thumbsup:

Xiahou

08-15-2007, 04:35

He shoots, he scores.

Chavez gets a goal for irony! Now all he needs to do is sharpen up his wit to boot. :2thumbsup:
Priceless isn't it? :laugh4:

Papewaio

08-15-2007, 06:08

Priceless isn't it? :laugh4:

Of course there is no price that would be capitalism old chap :toff:

Tribesman

08-15-2007, 07:29

I'm not going to look up what you asked Tribesman because I don't feel its necessary.

So you don't feel it is necessary to know the law that will be used to deport foriegn nationals found to be actively working to undermine the country?:inquisitive:
Thats certainly an interesting approach . especially when you added.....
I don't think most other countries, well ones that we respect, have these kind of laws.

naut

08-15-2007, 08:46

Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy.
QFT.

CountArach

08-15-2007, 08:50

Excellent thread Tribesman, you've summed up my thoughts on the subject so far. :bow:

Ice

08-15-2007, 09:49

So you don't feel it is necessary to know the law that will be used to deport foriegn nationals found to be actively working to undermine the country?:inquisitive:
Thats certainly an interesting approach . especially when you added.....

No, don't put words in my mouth. I don't think its necessary to try to dig through the Venezuelan government's web page and try to understand Spanish to read the bill. If you have easier access or know how to obtain the legislation, do share it with us.

Beirut

08-15-2007, 11:54

Husar

08-15-2007, 13:13

Many foreigners can travel to Venezuela without a visa. But now there's a new requirement once they get there. President Hugo Chavez announced on Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize his government will be deported. He ordered officials to monitor statements made by international figures visiting the country. The comments came after the President of Mexico's ruling conservative party criticized Chavez for seeking to do away with term limits at a recent pro-democracy conference in Caracas. "No foreigner, whoever it is, can come here to attack us," Chavez said. "How long are we going to allow a person, from any country in the world, to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the President is a tyrant, and no one does anything about it?"

So you don't feel it is necessary to know the law that will be used to deport foriegn nationals found to be actively working to undermine the country?:inquisitive:
Thats certainly an interesting approach . especially when you added.....

Actively working to undermine the country sounds a lot like spies and paramilitary forces. But seriously, if you go to a country and sort of profit from the hospitality of it's people, you shouldn't really run around and call them all idiots. It's a bit like mullahs in Great Britain calling for the destruction of Great Britain. Not only is it stupid, it also shows that you have no sense of decency or when you should be thankful for people tolerating you in their country.:thumbsdown:

Doesn't really matter what you think about the regime, when you are a "guest", you should know how to behave. It's a lso safer to criticize dictators from far away.:clown:

Crazed Rabbit

08-15-2007, 16:40

Chavez is really no worse than anyone else.

Anyone with ten cents worth of historical knowledge could pick and choose from a list of mistakes, illegalities, atrocities, and general horriblenesses committed by North American and European countries that either match or far exceed anything Chavez has done or is even likely to do.

I like him because he drives "the establishment" bonkers. :daisy:

That's funny, you seem to hate Israel though one could say the same thing about them. Or do you base your views of countries on whether they annoy the US or not?

Crazed Rabbit

Tribesman

08-15-2007, 18:30

No, don't put words in my mouth. I don't think its necessary to try to dig through the Venezuelan government's web page and try to understand Spanish to read the bill.
So you were just going on guesswork and a news article mainly based around Hugos usual bluster.

OK then Ice can you guess two examples where the law has been actually used recently or find them in news articles , and then perhaps explain why the deportations were innapropriate (actually one example was very very innapropriate , any decent dictatorship would have put the Columbians up against the wall and shot them :smg: ) .

Care to enlighten us as to what those are?

Well Rabbit where would you like to start ?
Sugar , coffee , agriculture in general , transport , trade , unions , buying massive high risk debts , biofuels , land reform ?
Pick a subject .

Is Chavez doing so?

In the main Seamus yes , the question remains though is he doing it wisely .

didnt call him bad guy..
Wow that has left me stumped Cossack .
I thought that in general if you refer to someone as delusional paranoid dictator who is a threat it tends to imply that you don't think they are good .
If they are not good but somehow have now become not bad then would you describe him as somewhat mediocre?

Boyar Son

08-15-2007, 18:44

Well you thought wrong, didnt call him a bad guy...

But if you want ok chavez is a potential threat to the US so there..bad guy

Ice

08-15-2007, 20:09

So you were just going on guesswork and a news article mainly based around Hugos usual bluster.

OK then Ice can you guess two examples where the law has been actually used recently or find them in news articles , and then perhaps explain why the deportations were innapropriate (actually one example was very very innapropriate , any decent dictatorship would have put the Columbians up against the wall and shot them :smg: ) .

How about this, Tribesman. You seem to know where they are, so why don't you post them. Yes, I'm going to base my opinion off news article. If you have better sources, like I said before, do share them with us.

Crazed Rabbit

08-15-2007, 20:22

Well Rabbit where would you like to start ?
Sugar , coffee , agriculture in general , transport , trade , unions , buying massive high risk debts , biofuels , land reform ?
Pick a subject .

hmmm - why not trade and unions?

CR

Tribesman

08-15-2007, 20:26

How about this, Tribesman. You seem to know where they are, so why don't you post them.
Yes I do know don't I :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Why should I make things easy ?

I find it very handy to have read plenty of relevant material before I form an opinion on a specific issue .
It amazes me that some people don't , its even more amazing when they state they don't think it is necessary to find out details of what the subject they are talking about are before they have given their opinion on it .

Soooooo Ice ....have you changed your opinion on the necessity of relevant information ?:inquisitive:

Ice

08-15-2007, 20:41

Yes I do know don't I :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: Why should I make things easy ?

I find it very handy to have read plenty of relevant material before I form an opinion on a specific issue .
It amazes me that some people don't , its even more amazing when they state they don't think it is necessary to find out details of what the subject they are talking about are before they have given their opinion on it .

Soooooo Ice ....have you changed your opinion on the necessity of relevant information ?:inquisitive:

Not yet, Tribesman. I won't jump through hoops for you. Either post this "information" you have, or stop arguing about something that isn't present.

Tribesman

08-15-2007, 21:05

Good choices Rabbit :2thumbsup:
So trade , he has done a lot of deals hasn't he , lots of reciprocal deals .
How safe do you think the Jamaican investments are ?
It does free up the domestic production for the Brazilian partnership , but that partnership has been downsized due to American involvement (a case of heart ruling the brain on both parties part but America does get the slightly better deal) .
Firstly given the scale of the deal can he afford the downsizing he has imposed on himself after the finances of the Jamaican agreement is already committed to ?
It is a long term investment with massive initial capital outlay can he expect any decent returns ? Especially considering the devestation that the regular tropical storms do to the entire crop that he put his money into in Jamaica ?
Given the massive subsidies the American sector gets in that field (dating back to the wrecking of the world trade to screw Castro) can he complete if the Americans don't drop their subsidies (its very unlikely they will drop them following the Brazilian partnership) ?
OK it does get him brownie point with Jamaica but it is a damn big risk for the sake of increasing popularity( a trait that is consistant with many of his deals , though the China one seems sound but it will not come to fruition for years)

Iran ....well what can you say about that deal ? OK the refineries make sense , but that is about all .
A better bargain could have been got virtually anywhere , and given the volitilty of the situation in the region only a numbskull would be pouring money in there (BTW how much American money is Bush pouring into the region) . His proposed arms deal was pretty much just a pipe dream on his part . OK he will get the deal for the spare parts but the Russians had already sown up the rest of the contract before he even announced his proposal .
So really another example of his heart ruling his brain in business , not a very clever trait is it .

Would you like to digest that , add any comments and then either continue with trade or move onto the trade unions ?

Strike For The South

08-15-2007, 21:51

We give Chavez waaaay to much credit. He is the president of Venuzuela why should we even care? So he wants to lead a thrid world country down a road of poverty meh far be it from me to stop him.

Proletariat

08-15-2007, 23:45

Nail on the head, SFTS. One good thing the Bush administration has done is basically ignore Chavez' idiotic rants about our 'imminent invasion', which is exactly how they should be treated. I don't understand the 'drives the establishment bonkers' reasoning, either. I don't see our government going bonkers over Chavez.

Boyar Son

08-16-2007, 00:00

Papewaio

08-16-2007, 00:03

I come to the Backroom for entertaining dissection of the news around the world. I like the opinions and I like seeing some of the original editorials and media opinions that helped form those in the backroom... so I would love a couple of links to chew on too. :2thumbsup:

That's what's so good about the News of the Weird thread.

Xiahou

08-16-2007, 00:36

We give Chavez waaaay to much credit. He is the president of Venuzuela why should we even care? So he wants to lead a thrid world country down a road of poverty meh far be it from me to stop him.
He's a nuisance. He's ruining his own country, he also runs the risk of destabilizing his neighbors- that's really the worst he could do though and even that's not too likely. Definitely not public enemy #1.

He's a power-hungry egomaniac to be sure, but anyone that thinks we in the US live in fear of Chavez is mistaken. Criticizing him is more of a hobby really. :wink:

Redleg

08-16-2007, 01:19

My biggest issue with Chavez is his land reform policies. But then I don't live there, nor do I buy any argicultural products directly from there, so I don't think his land reform has any major impact on me. I believe however that it will have some very bad effects in the future for the people of Venuzuela.

Venuzuela used to have one of the better argicultural producing economies of all the Americas, to include at per capita ratio one almost equal to the United States and Canada, now however I am not so sure.

Now have other nations done such things - yes. In some of them it had diasterous (SP) effects.

Soulforged

08-16-2007, 02:08

Is strange that everyone has commented on the reforms of the venezuelan Constitution, speaking of the limits removal for mandate, without entering on the other important topics.

First there's the issue of a different judiciary system, apparently only appliable to crimes, in wich the sentence is reached by popular intervention, much like a jury, but apparently faster a la Lynch style.

And second, a much more controversial issue than the other two: he believes that it's ok to get rid of the articles in the Constitution in wich many Human Rights conventions got Constitutional status. This could mean two things, Chavez and company are tired of the opposition's critics about him ignoring those rights and/or the Constitution is going to suffer some changes that make it incompatible with said conventions, therefore forcing him to erase those articles. However that's not very efficient on international law, but at least it will serve him well to get rid of certain contradictions.

This is still a project wich has to be approved by a democratic government, so any reaction against it may very well be hyperbolic at this stage, that said I don't have any links to this in english, sorry, it seems as every newspaper in english has chosen to concentrate in the more irrelevant issue of term limits.

Tribesman

08-16-2007, 17:33

Soulforged

08-16-2007, 20:10

Soulforged , any thoughts about Venezuela buying your countries debts ?
Media articles have been positive , negative or indifferent about the story depending on the viewpoint they went in with in the first place .
It's a really funny story Tribes. Hugo has always been worried about other latinamerican countries and tries to help the situation as best as he cans, he always has been an strong beam on international relationships for South America, important intermediator on the problems between Uruguay and Argentina, for an example. Now he's starting to financiate the debts of many countries with serious international debt problems on the south.

Politically this is a fine move, many people will start to like Chavez even more, but I wonder how many of those people are going to be natives...

Economically however...is a little too generous me thinks, even more considering that my government has already some serious problems with backing up contracted debts. Let's hope that this doesn't sink Venezuela in a generational economic crisis.

There's a nice little quote from Chavez on this subject on an spanish article. Chavez says: "Is an effort from Venezuela, but we do it because we are aware of what this is all about. Argentina is freeing itself from Dracula, is breaking the chains of the International Monetary Fund". That's funny, add another monster to Chavez list of people that he hates: Bush is the devil and apparently the whole IMF is Dracula :devilish: :evilgrin: ...

EDIT: Here's the article (http://www.elcomercio.com/noticiaEC.asp?id_noticia=128715&id_seccion=6) if anyone wants it.

Tribesman

08-16-2007, 20:36

Economically however...is a little too generous me thinks, even more considering that my government has already some serious problems with backing up contracted debts. Let's hope that this doesn't sink Venezuela in a generational economic crisis.

Yep , he is a little bit like the kid who got a whole pile of cash for making his communion and managed to waste it all away on a pile of trash by the next day .

That's funny, add another monster to Chavez list of people that he hates: Bush is the devil and apparently the whole IMF is Dracula
What is it he calls the World Bank ?:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Don Corleone

08-16-2007, 20:48

Nope , but for something to be used as an example of how bad a government is compared to other governments it should be something bad that other governments don't do shouldn't it .
Otherwise its just an example that governments are bad and singling out one while ignoring the others is hypocracy .

The Holocaust was nothing new. Does that mean we just picked on the poor Nazis and were hypocrites?

Anyway, Strike and Prole mirror my views pretty well. Chavez is a boogeyman that we pay way too much attention to. In a way, he's actually good for America. He forces us to actually acknowledge that we have neighbors in Latin America and formulate policies to interact with them. They've been suffering from a lot of 'not-so-benign' neglect since the end of the Cold War.

HoreTore

08-16-2007, 22:30

The Holocaust was nothing new. Does that mean we just picked on the poor Nazis and were hypocrites?

While genocide and mass killings of unwanted people isn't a new thing, the scale and effort used by the nazi's certainly is. The reason the holocaust is so big, is because of the industrial-like scale and method of the killing.

If they had stuck to a few mass graves here and there, it's quite possible that noone would have cared... Like a lot of genocides.

EDIT: oh, and they were defeated, and as such "not one of us", so that changes a few things too.

Tribesman

08-16-2007, 22:42

The Holocaust was nothing new. Does that mean we just picked on the poor Nazis and were hypocrites?

Well they did keep very quiet about Stalin didn't they , they even debunked Katyn and blamed it on the Germans .
BTW , which countries was it that picked on the Nazis ? Poland perhaps ?Norway , Denmark , Holland , Belgium , France , Britain , America ???
Or was it dastardly Luxembourg at it again .
Always singling out regimes to pick on and starting wars them Luxembourgers are .:yes:

Divinus Arma

08-17-2007, 05:55

Do I smell sulfur?

Husar

08-17-2007, 07:32

Do I smell sulfur?
Check your surroundings for Luxembourgers.

Caius

08-19-2007, 05:20

I think Chavez do everything to appear in a gaming forum of Total War games.