Buckle Up Vol II. U.S. signs $30 billion defense aid pact with Israel

[Odin]

Source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070816/ts_nm/israel_usa_defence_dc)

Excerpt: "Burns said the new aid to Israel, which currently receives $2.4 billion in annual military grants, would not be conditioned on diplomatic progress or concessions though "one of the major priorities for our government ... will be to help push forward a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians."

The United States, Burns said, considers "this $30 billion in assistance to Israel to be an investment in peace, in long-term peace -- peace cannot be made without strength."

Israel overhauled its armed forces since suffering surprise setbacks in last year's war with Lebanese Hezbollah guerrillas."

I nearly laid a golden egg after reading this bit. We are giving them 30billion with no diplomatic conditions or concessions?

I've always been a somewhat angry person, i dont know maybe my mother didnt hold me enough but this is killing me.

We should be selling military equipment to Israel not giving it to them. This is just more and more bad foriegn policy by Bush and his admin. No money, no aid to anyone rebuild New Orleans first then we can send some crumbs to starving children all over the world and sing cumbayya (or however you spell it).

So does this mean we will be sending 30 billion to Abbas? Or is this 30Billion an aid a down payment on the intended results of a Israeli military strike on Iran?

[rory_20_uk]

Israel will use the weapons in ways that the USA wants to be able to do, but can't. Be that assassinations, torture of people or just scaring the oil-rich Arab states.

Due to its position, Israel is always on a far more sensitive hair trigger to its action over a given event. And when disaster strikes there aren't even any body bags coming back to the USA! Put like this, it's a bargain.

~:smoking:

[Don Corleone]

$30 billion over the next decade. If Bush hadn't made any changes, we would have given them $24billion over the next decade. This isn't an extra $30 billion, we've bumped up how much we're giving them.

And truth be told, I think they're doing it just so the Democrats will vote it down. Then the administration turns around to Israel and says "Republican White House wanted to give you $3B a year, Democratic Congress cut the number to $2.4B... are you sure you don't want to encourage Jewish Americans to change parties?"

I mean, Bush had 4 years of a Republican Congress and White House to give Israel $10B a year if he really wanted to.

[Odin]

I dont care how much they would have gotten or why they are getting it now we shouldnt be giving anyone anything.

Let these incompetents run the show for a while, lets see how it turns out. Im all for selling people wares, line em up and to the highest bidder goes.... But this grant business (not to mention the egyptians and saudi's) is ridiculous.

This entire foriegn policy of handouts and intervention on some idealogical princinpal of freedom for all has run its course... I mean enough already, let em find thier own way through the valley. You would think given the level of faith in that part of the world god would have shown up already and sorted it all out.

Instead we have give aways and freebies, its like a freakin game show at this point. "And behind curtain 2 you get 15 F-15 strike eagles ! Oh and for the poor sods that picked curtain 1 you get 2 years of shipments of M-15 assault rifles"

And this is in our strategic intrest how? How the hell is arming these idiot religous freaks going to help the U.S. ? The only positive outcome I can come up with is somewhere some one did a "wink wink nudge nudge" and the sunni states and israel are going to take out the Iranian nuke program for us.

Short of that its a waste of resources, time, money and equipment.

[Don Corleone]

I'm not saying that I agree with the concept of large amounts of foreign aid either. Personally, I'd be a lot thrifty with the State Department and Pentagon giveaways myself. I tried to offer an explanation for this particular outrage d'jour.

As far as 'no aid to anybody' goes, that works just dandy if you're prepared to face a situation where the only friendly face is the one you see in the mirror. If you're prepared to watch the rest of the world disintegrate into chaos or subservience to your enemies, then yes, a 'no-aid ever' policy would benefit us locally. Without aid, Israel will cease to exist, and without aid, Britain in the 40's would have.

[Odin]

I tried to offer an explanation for this particular outrage d'jour.

You did, sorry for barking so loud its my time of the month.


As far as 'no aid to anybody' goes, that works just dandy if you're prepared to face a situation where the only friendly face is the one you see in the mirror. If you're prepared to watch the rest of the world disintegrate into chaos or subservience to your enemies, then yes, a 'no-aid ever' policy would benefit us locally. Without aid, Israel will cease to exist, and without aid, Britain in the 40's would have.

No, im prepared for someone else to pick up the ball and run awhile. What about all these budding super powers like India and China? Cant they be the ones to set up aids relief funds to africa, and financial and military aid for natural disasters?

I mean the chinese are perhaps the most capialist people I have ever met, they ought to have a boon selling arms to the factions in the middle east.

You always seem to bring me back to some centered position with your logic Don and its very frustrating. I rather prefer my nonsensical ranting. That said, okay aid is appropriate at times but we've been in the game far to long. The U.N. Nato, the world bank on and on.... Enough. Lets let someone else have a go, and we can sit back and rebuild this country (as much as I dislike Manhattan it wasnt fun watching the pipe burst last month, or the power grid failures a few years ago).

And here is one last bit of extremism having Israel cease to exsist (although I doubt your outcome) might not be such a bad thing, maybe the Germans will pony up a few million acres in compensation and they can have that as thier new homeland? (Maybe the Iranians were right after all?)

No more money, no more aid, no more foriegn attachements based on ideology. its a big ocean, time for everyone to take of the saftey floats and jump in.

[Don Corleone]

You always seem to bring me back to some centered position with your logic Don and its very frustrating. I rather prefer my nonsensical ranting. That said, okay aid is appropriate at times but we've been in the game far to long. The U.N. Nato, the world bank on and on.... Enough. Lets let someone else have a go, and we can sit back and rebuild this country (as much as I dislike Manhattan it wasnt fun watching the pipe burst last month, or the power grid failures a few years ago).

Well, if it would make you feel any better, I certainly agree that we need to employ some results-oriented planning to our aid bills. Right now, we give money to people and hope that they'll do with it what we want them to do with it. I say give them a small trickle. When they've shown they'll use it wisely, in a way that benefits us as well as them, ramp it up. When they go off the ranch, *cough* Israel *cough* ramp it back down again until they wise up.

As for an Israeli homeland in Southern Germany, forget it, there's no way it would happen. I think my solution to the whole affair... severing Florida at the Peninsula and making it a "New Israel" makes a lot more sense. No cultural/religious/historical sites, but hey, the Israelis can destroy them all on their way out. Then we can wipe our hands of the whole mess and let the muslims over there sort things out for themselves. Put them in quarantine, no military aid, no weapons sales... just transport of refugees out to 3rd party countries that would tend for the women and children. 10 years of that and I bet the Middle East would be more peaceful than a kindergarten.

[Strike For The South]

Why would the Germans give up anything? They tried to earse an entire people and failed. Thats been happening for millions of years. I find it luaghable when people act like Germany should feel bad for what it did. Germans today hadnothing to do with the holocuast.

[Don Corleone]

I believe the rationale behind Germany as a site was prior to the Holocaust, they had one of the largest European Jewish populations. In other words, if you turn the clock back to 1932, where would most Jews be found. I don't think the intention is to punish the Germany of today for the sins of their grandfathers.

[Odin]

Why would the Germans give up anything? They tried to earse an entire people and failed. Thats been happening for millions of years. I find it luaghable when people act like Germany should feel bad for what it did. Germans today hadnothing to do with the holocuast.

Why shouldnt they give something up? Why should the muslims have had to give it up because of some patch work of city states 2500 years ago?

I dont think Germans should feel bad about anything to be honest, I do think the current situation in the middle east isnt getting better its getting worse and as one of the suckers in the U.S. bound by my leaders poor foriegn policy choices I'm willing to entertain any ideas outside of the box at this point.

[Tribesman]

We should be selling military equipment to Israel not giving it to them.
Good point , Israel should get the same aid deal as all the others , the others have to spend all of the money in America , Israel can spend 26.3% of its aid elsewhere .

[Strike For The South]

Why shouldnt they give something up? Why should the muslims have had to give it up because of some patch work of city states 2500 years ago?

I dont think Germans should feel bad about anything to be honest, I do think the current situation in the middle east isnt getting better its getting worse and as one of the suckers in the U.S. bound by my leaders poor foriegn policy choices I'm willing to entertain any ideas outside of the box at this point.

I never said I think the muslims should give up anything. Isreal is a mistake and we are idoits for siding with them. Ive become convinced the middle east is nothing more than hodgpodge of large familes and tribes who cant seem to get over there blood fueds, religon money power are simply tools to fuel hate that all starts becuase of your name. Far be it from me to stop mindless killings on both sides since neither can grow up and talk instaed they both claim gods word and waste countless lives over land. Idoits the lot of em

[Divinus Arma]

Should have been $40 Billion.

[spmetla]

I assumed that something like this was in the works when we got the Israelis to agree to our increased sales to the Saudis and other Arab states. Like hell we'd sell weapons to the enemies of Israel without letting Israel keep an edge over them.

So long as we don't sell Israel anything to do with the F22 Raptor. They went and sold some of our later F16 tech to the Chinese and I fear they'd do the same with our newest toy as well.

[rory_20_uk]

... and without aid, Britain in the 40's would have {ceased to exist}.

We'd've just signed a peace treaty with Germany and got out of the war a lot earlier. We'd not have been bombed, we'd not have been bankrupted and Soviet Russia would probably have fallen.

The UK suffered so much through fighting Nazi Germany that it seems a tenant of faith that it was a good idea to do so. I realise that other countries suffered far more, but we alone had the option of signing peace that kept us out with no strings attached.

~:smoking:

[Divinus Arma]

We'd've just signed a peace treaty with Germany and got out of the war a lot earlier. We'd not have been bombed, we'd not have been bankrupted and Soviet Russia would probably have fallen.

The UK suffered so much through fighting Nazi Germany that it seems a tenant of faith that it was a good idea to do so. I realise that other countries suffered far more, but we alone had the option of signing peace that kept us out with no strings attached.

~:smoking:

And you think the Nazis would have honored that? They didn't honor their non-aggression pact with the Soviets. What on earth makes you think that they wouldn't have eventually invaded British soil with troops rather than simply bombs?

[drone]

If I recall correctly, Hitler had a thing for the British. Almost respect. Whereas, in his mind, the Soviets were a bunch of sub-human commies occupying much desired Lebensraum.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Interesting alternate history.

The conquest and subjugation of the East would have taken some time, so any threat to England would have been long delayed. Could the English have been comfortable with Hitler and his successor as neighbors? Hitler's careful treatment of his Italian ally does not sugest that he would have treated Britain as in equal over the years.

[Odin]

I never said I think the muslims should give up anything.

No I guess you didnt. How about western Texas then ? :2thumbsup:



Isreal is a mistake and we are idoits for siding with them.

i am in a much better mood today albeit still irritated generally. Israel as a concept and nation wasnt a mistake IMHO just the choice of locale. Yes we are making a mistake siding with them in the current methods employed. I have no problem with them, Iran, or anyone else being our buddies but there is no real benefit IMHO to the current approach of arming one side over the other.


Ive become convinced the middle east is nothing more than hodgpodge of large familes and tribes who cant seem to get over there blood fueds, religon money power are simply tools to fuel hate that all starts becuase of your name. Far be it from me to stop mindless killings on both sides since neither can grow up and talk instaed they both claim gods word and waste countless lives over land. Idoits the lot of em

In spirit I agree with your sentiment. I would rather sell them and everyone else the means to conduct the fueds, and simply pull out of any physical involvement. (similar to the russian position).

Giving them grants, aid, payoffs, freebies whatever you want to call it is a continuation of a failed foriegn policy that extends back to the spanish american war. We should have let Cuba conduct thier own independence movement and stayed the hell out.

The 30billion is just another branch of a developed and intricate web of a foriegn policy that isnt based on any constitutional principle, except for perhaps "all men are created equal". We shouldnt be involved in foriegn wars or affairs and its high time someone said enough is enough.

[rory_20_uk]

Germany wanted an Empire to the East, and had no designs on Britain.

Britain might not have liked being next to Nazi Germany, but then wasn't thrilled about its position in the Cold War either. Add to this not being bankrupt and not bombed it seems a price worth paying. Nazi Germany would have likely collapsed given time just as the USSR did.

Slowly giving up the Empire and not a rushed withdrawal would have hopefully meant more New Zealand / Australia / Canada outcomes as opposed to many that have been seen especially in Africa.

~:smoking:

[Marshal Murat]

Isn't this off topic?