Apache units dont look like Apache...

[kungfuserge]

This is an Apache Indian

https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9170/apacheindiansmallci7.th.jpg (https://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=apacheindiansmallci7.jpg)
.....I don't understand those units in the American campaign that looks more like Mayan or Aztec ....

[Temujin]

A 19th century Apache most likely.

Do you have any pictures of 16th century Apaches? No?

[kungfuserge]

True I don't have a picture of the appache in the XVI century http://freelog.chez.tiscali.fr/emoticon/@GregLand/ag.gif ; but I though they weren't looking like this (mostly with hairs like Huron). For what I have read they didn't shave their hairs
And not using feather Big Chief hairdo like the Northern tribes

[Fate]

Temujin has a point, compare a 19th century, well i was gonna say englishman, but ANYONE, with a 16th century ... also anyone :P

Theres bound to be a huge difference!

[rebelscum]

16th century apache tribesman .. leather, fur, feathers, peace pipe, tomahawk.
21st century apache tribesman .. leather, jeans, baseball cap, malboro light, rolled up newspaper.

[Ulstan]

We have no photographs of 16th century Apache Indians.

Might as well take a photo of a frenchman in the 1800's and then complain that the french soldiers in game don't look like that :p

[kungfuserge]

Ok ; OK http://freelog.chez.tiscali.fr/emoticon/@GregLand/ag.gif Keep Cool; I might not be accurate in History but I never read Apaches had their hairs like Huron . I red " Burie My heart " from Dee Brown in which I remember reading that Apaches were very prowd of their long Hairs ....I thought it was the same along their history http://www.vangagifs.com/gifs/cartoons/luckyluke/21.gif

Please don't get hot
http://freelog.chez.tiscali.fr/emoticon/@GregLand/ch.gif

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

This is an Apache Indian

https://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9170/apacheindiansmallci7.th.jpg (https://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=apacheindiansmallci7.jpg)
.....I don't understand those units in the American campaign that looks more like Mayan or Aztec ....
nope: This is an Apache Indian (with some friends)
https://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3387/villagepeople1iz3.jpg

[Gorm]

And when you see some of the settlements during a battle, one often sees totem poles. These are characteristic of Pacific Northwest peoples, not anywhere else.

[icek]

What kind of apachean units can use level1 armor that is given by one of their tipi ?

[joe4iz]

I'd have to say that they would have been better calling them the Iroquois. That's what they look like.

[Cadwallon]

I think the point is that the Apacheans don't necessarily represent JUST the Apache that we know from their 19th Century confrontations with the United States, but more the Apachean Confederacy - if you look at the names of your generals, they often refer to sub-tribes within the Confederation. In conquest, they absorb the Comanche, Navajo and other famous Amerindian tribes.

I think its simplistic to just think of them as Apache - and they would have been much more alien looking (that is, to European sensibilities) prior to contact with Europeans. Even genetically, from 300 years of confrontation and mingling with other tribes and even the Spanish, they would have physically looked different.

[joe4iz]

I am just curious though, did any of the Confederation sport mohawks? I have no idea, but that was what I based my answer on. Please correct me as my wife hasn't done that today, and I am due for one.:embarassed:

[Cadwallon]

Got this quote from Wikipedia about the early apache in the 16th Century..

"After seventeen days of travel, I came upon a rancheria of the Indians who follow these cattle (bison). These natives are called Querechos. They do not cultivate the land, but eat raw meat and drink the blood of the cattle they kill. They dress in the skins of the cattle, with which all the people in this land clothe themselves, and they have very well-constructed tents, made with tanned and greased cowhides, in which they live and which they take along as they follow the cattle. They have dogs which they load to carry their tents, poles, and belongings. (ref: Hammond and Rey.) "

So quite a bit different from the 19th century representation! We get deluged with American impressions of the Amerindians/Native Americans. The fact that the Spanish and Mexicans had been dealing with them for 300 years longer is hardly remarked upon.

[Mr Frost]

...Theres bound to be a huge difference!
No there is not .
Aside from the fact that many tribal societies maintain the same tastes and fashions in dress for thousands of years , your assumption doesn't consider when in the 19th Century that picture was made , whether it was from a live model or composed from descriptions and/or older paintings and the Apaches were among the last native nation to be subdued in the United States so they may likely have still clung to traditional modes of dress {typical of peoples in war} up to the time that picture was made .


...compare a 19th century, well i was gonna say englishman, but ANYONE, with a 16th century ...
A 19th Century Australian Aborigonal in the Heart of the country looked , as best as archeology can ascertain , the largely same as a 16th century B.C. member of the same tribe and status .








You don't know , you assume .

[Cadwallon]

Yes but, a 19th Century Koori or Murri (Aboriginal) had had no, or little contact with Europeans.

Apache had had ongoing contact with Spanish and Mexicans for over 300 years - during which they adopted guns, horses and regularly traded cloth and foodstuffs with and intermarried with Europeans and other tribes.

[Gorm]

I believe CA chose "apache" as a very broad, generic word to describe many different tribes of the region. "Apache" also came to mean fierce, which is why the French used it to describe anyone who show the same characteristics. They even named a dance after the word, a very rough and aggressive dance.

[joe4iz]

I think the point is that the Apacheans don't necessarily represent JUST the Apache that we know from their 19th Century confrontations with the United States, but more the Apachean Confederacy - if you look at the names of your generals, they often refer to sub-tribes within the Confederation. In conquest, they absorb the Comanche, Navajo and other famous Amerindian tribes.

I think its simplistic to just think of them as Apache - and they would have been much more alien looking (that is, to European sensibilities) prior to contact with Europeans. Even genetically, from 300 years of confrontation and mingling with other tribes and even the Spanish, they would have physically looked different.



Yes, but some of the early Spanish encounters with the indians of the American Southwest were written by clergy who had returned from a rather unsuccessful attempt to find El Dorado. They also tried to "convert" the "savages" which did not end well.

The clothing probably would not have changed that much due to the available resources necessary to make clothing and or the climate etc etc. I am just throwing that out there. I did like playing as the Apachean Nation in the game. NO MERCHANTS! no real economy... At first, I was not pumping out enough units as I was afraid I would go broke. Then I found they could go on the warpath and that was almost all I did every chance I could.:2thumbsup:

[icek]

Why no one mention that in this campaign we hear a fallout 2 music in strategic map :2thumbsup:

[kungfuserge]

A little History ............

The word Apache is believed to be derived from a Zuni word meaning "enemy".
The Apache Indians are divided into six sub-tribes
Bedonkohe....Be-don-ko-he
Chieahen....Chi-e-a-hen
Chihenne....Chi-hen-ne, (Ojo Caliente), (Hot Springs) Apaches
Chokonen....Cho-kon-en, Chiricahua Apache
Nedni....Nendi
White Mountain Apache

The Apache people (including the Navajo) came from the Far North to settle the Plains and Southwest around A.D. 850.
They settled in three desert regions, the Great Basin, the Sonoran, and the Chihuachuan.
The Navajo are not part of the Apache nation. They are their own honored nation. They only share the Athabscan language with the Apache.
The Apache speak the Athabscan language,
which originated in their former homeland of
northwestern Canada.


These distinct groups can be organized by dialects:
The Western Apache (Coyotero) traditionally occupied most of eastern Arizona and included the White Mountain, Cibuecue, San Carlos, and Northern and Southern Tonto bands. San Carlos, Aravaipa, White Mountain, Northern Tonto, Southern Tonto, and Cibecue in Arizona, Chiricahua and Mimbreno in Arizona and New Mexico, Mescalero (Faraon) in New Mexico and Mexico, Jicarilla (Tinde) in New Mexico and Colorado, Kiowa-Apache (Gataka) in Oklahoma, and Lipan in Texas and Mexico. Western Apache (Coyotero), Eastern Arizona.


They exchanged buffalo hides, tallow and meat, bones that could be worked into needles and scrapers for hides, and salt from the desert with the Pueblos for pottery, cotton, blankets, turquoise, corn and other goods. But at times they simply saw what they wanted and took it. They became known among the Pueblo villages by another name, Apachu, "the enemy".

The Apache's guerrilla war tactics came naturally and were unsurpassed. The name Apache struck fear into the hearts of Pueblo tribes, and in later years the Spanish, Mexican, and Anglo-American settlers, which they raided for food, and livestock.
The Apache and the Pueblos managed to maintain generally peaceful relations. But the arrival of the Spaniards changed everything. A source of friction was the activity of Spanish slave traders, who hunted down captives to serve as labor in the silver mines of Chihuahua in northern Mexico. The Apache, in turn, raided Spanish settlements to seize cattle, horses, firearms, and captives of their own.
The prowess of the Apache in battle became legend. It was said that an Apache warrior could run 50 miles without stopping and travel more swiftly than a troop of mounted soldiers.

The Apache saw themselves differently, they faced constant struggle to survive. When they raided a village, they did so from pure necessity, to provide corn for their families when game was scarce. Most of the time they went their own way, moving from camp to camp in pursuit of deer and buffalo, collecting roots and berries, sometimes planting seeds that they later returned to harvest.
They set up their camps on the outskirts of the pueblos. They dressed in animal skins, used dogs as pack animals, and pitched tent like dwellings made of brush or hide, called wikiups. The wickiup was the most common shelter of the Apache. The dome shaped lodge was constructed of wood poles covered with brush, grass, or reed mats. It contained a fire pit and a smoke hole for a chimney. The Jicarillas and Kiowa-Apaches, which roamed the Plains, used buffalo hide tepees. The basic shelter of the Chiricahua was the domeshaped wickiup made of brush.

The Apache regarded coyotes, insects, and birds as having been human beings. The human race, then, but following in the tracks of those who have gone before.
The Apache lived in extended family groups, all loosely related through the female line. (Matriarcial).... Each group operated independently under a respected family leader....settling its own disputes, answering to no higher human authority.
The main exception to this occurred during wartime, when neighboring groups banded together to fight a common enemy. Unlike ordinary raiding, where the main object was to acquire food and possessions,war meant lethal business. An act of vengeance for the deaths of band members in earlier raids or battles.
Leaders of the local family groups would meet in council to elect a war chief, who led the campaign. But if any one group preferred to follow its own war chief, it was free to do so.
Apache bands that roamed the same area admitted to a loose cultural kinship. The Jicarilla of northeastern New Mexico hunted buffalo in the plains, planted corn in the mountains. The Mescalero to the south were hunter-gatherers who developed an appetite for the roasted heads of wild mescal plants. The Chiricahua, fiercest of all tribal groups, raided along the Mexican border. The more peaceble Western Apache of Arizona spent part of each year farming. Two other tribal divisions, the Lipan and Kiowa-Apache, lived as plainsmen in western Kansas and Texas.
A strict code of conduct governed Apache life, based on strong family loyalties. Each Apache group was composed of extended families or clans. Basic social, economic, and political units based on female inherited leadership. The most important bond led from an Apache mother to her children and on to her children. Marriage within one's own clan is forbidden. When the son married his obligations from then on were to his mother-in-law's family.

Beyond this code of propriety and family obligations, the Apache shared a rich oral history of myths and legends and a legacy of intense religious devotion that touched virtually every aspect of their lives.
Medicine Men presided over religious ceremonies. They believed in many spirit beings. Usen, the Giver of Life, the most powerful of them all. The Gans, or Mountain Spirits, were especially important in Apache ceremonies. Males garbed themselves in elaborate costumes to impersonate the Gans in ritual dance, wearing kilts, black masks, tall wooden-slat head-dresses, and body paint carrying wooden swords.
The Mescalero band consisted of followers and a headman. They had no formal leader such as a tribal chief, or council, nor a decision making process. The core of the band was a "relative group", predominantly, but not necessarily, kinsmen. Named by the Spanish for the mescal cactus the Apaches used for food, drink, and fiber.
One author's characterization of the Mescalero Apache people of the past is as follows: They moved freely, wintering on the Rio Grande or farther south, ranging the buffalo plains in the summer, always following the sun and the food supply. They owned nothing and everything. They did as they pleased and bowed to no man. Their women were chaste. Their leaders kept their promises. They were mighty warriors who depended on success in raiding for wealth and honor. To their families they were kind and gentle, but they could be unbelievably cruel to their enemies--fierce and revengeful when they felt that they had been betrayed. (Sonnichsen 1958:4)
The Apaches were nomadic hunter-gatherers. They chased any wild game located within their territory, especially deer and rabbits. When necessary, they lived off the land by gathering wild berries, roots, cactus fruit and seeds of the mesquite tree. They planted some corn, beans, and squash as crops. They were extremely hardy prior to the arrival of European diseases, and could live practically naked in zero temperature.
Many Apache bands were so influenced by the tribes they came into contact that they took on many of their customs and practices. Western Apaches living near the Pueblo Indians became farmers. Jicarilla Apaches pursued the great buffalo herds like other Plains Indians, mounted on horses they acquired through raids on the Spanish and Pueblos in the late 1600's. Kiowa-Apaches became more like the Kiowa, a Plains tribe, than their own Apache kin. The Lopans raised dogs for meat as many Mexican tribes to their south.
In 1871 , the original White Mountain Reservation was established. It contained today's Fort Apache and San Carlos reservations. In 1897, the land was divided into two independent reservations.

Unfortunately I didn't find any Pics of drawings showing Apaches in the XVI century

[joe4iz]

Wow, thanks for the post.
Now I'm probably going to have to go to the library and check out some books about them.

Just reading your post makes me draw some parrellels between their society and that of the 9th century Vikings. :idea2:

They just were looking for some friends:inquisitive: .

[rebelscum]

http://powhatan.wm.edu/, some info on early native american settlements

[Guru]

This appears to be a nice site regarding native americans: http://www.crystalinks.com/nativeamer.html
Apache nation: http://www.crystalinks.com/apache.html
:book2:
I find the native american culture fascinating. Don't you? They don't cry when you move the mouse over "execute" after a victorious battle.

- Gurunimo

[kungfuserge]

Still no Painting or description of Apaches in the XVI's .....seems almost impossible to find a description; but I'm positive regarding their hairs : They were Long !!!

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

A little History ............

The word Apache is believed to be derived from a Zuni word meaning "enemy".
The Apache Indians are divided into six sub-tribes
Bedonkohe....Be-don-ko-he
Chieahen....Chi-e-a-hen
Chihenne....Chi-hen-ne, (Ojo Caliente), (Hot Springs) Apaches
Chokonen....Cho-kon-en, Chiricahua Apache
Nedni....Nendi
White Mountain Apache

The Apache people (including the Navajo) came from the Far North to settle the Plains and Southwest around A.D. 850.
They settled in three desert regions, the Great Basin, the Sonoran, and the Chihuachuan.
The Navajo are not part of the Apache nation. They are their own honored nation. They only share the Athabscan language with the Apache.
The Apache speak the Athabscan language,
which originated in their former homeland of
northwestern Canada.


These distinct groups can be organized by dialects:
The Western Apache (Coyotero) traditionally occupied most of eastern Arizona and included the White Mountain, Cibuecue, San Carlos, and Northern and Southern Tonto bands. San Carlos, Aravaipa, White Mountain, Northern Tonto, Southern Tonto, and Cibecue in Arizona, Chiricahua and Mimbreno in Arizona and New Mexico, Mescalero (Faraon) in New Mexico and Mexico, Jicarilla (Tinde) in New Mexico and Colorado, Kiowa-Apache (Gataka) in Oklahoma, and Lipan in Texas and Mexico. Western Apache (Coyotero), Eastern Arizona.


They exchanged buffalo hides, tallow and meat, bones that could be worked into needles and scrapers for hides, and salt from the desert with the Pueblos for pottery, cotton, blankets, turquoise, corn and other goods. But at times they simply saw what they wanted and took it. They became known among the Pueblo villages by another name, Apachu, "the enemy".

The Apache's guerrilla war tactics came naturally and were unsurpassed. The name Apache struck fear into the hearts of Pueblo tribes, and in later years the Spanish, Mexican, and Anglo-American settlers, which they raided for food, and livestock.
The Apache and the Pueblos managed to maintain generally peaceful relations. But the arrival of the Spaniards changed everything. A source of friction was the activity of Spanish slave traders, who hunted down captives to serve as labor in the silver mines of Chihuahua in northern Mexico. The Apache, in turn, raided Spanish settlements to seize cattle, horses, firearms, and captives of their own.
The prowess of the Apache in battle became legend. It was said that an Apache warrior could run 50 miles without stopping and travel more swiftly than a troop of mounted soldiers.

The Apache saw themselves differently, they faced constant struggle to survive. When they raided a village, they did so from pure necessity, to provide corn for their families when game was scarce. Most of the time they went their own way, moving from camp to camp in pursuit of deer and buffalo, collecting roots and berries, sometimes planting seeds that they later returned to harvest.
They set up their camps on the outskirts of the pueblos. They dressed in animal skins, used dogs as pack animals, and pitched tent like dwellings made of brush or hide, called wikiups. The wickiup was the most common shelter of the Apache. The dome shaped lodge was constructed of wood poles covered with brush, grass, or reed mats. It contained a fire pit and a smoke hole for a chimney. The Jicarillas and Kiowa-Apaches, which roamed the Plains, used buffalo hide tepees. The basic shelter of the Chiricahua was the domeshaped wickiup made of brush.

The Apache regarded coyotes, insects, and birds as having been human beings. The human race, then, but following in the tracks of those who have gone before.
The Apache lived in extended family groups, all loosely related through the female line. (Matriarcial).... Each group operated independently under a respected family leader....settling its own disputes, answering to no higher human authority.
The main exception to this occurred during wartime, when neighboring groups banded together to fight a common enemy. Unlike ordinary raiding, where the main object was to acquire food and possessions,war meant lethal business. An act of vengeance for the deaths of band members in earlier raids or battles.
Leaders of the local family groups would meet in council to elect a war chief, who led the campaign. But if any one group preferred to follow its own war chief, it was free to do so.
Apache bands that roamed the same area admitted to a loose cultural kinship. The Jicarilla of northeastern New Mexico hunted buffalo in the plains, planted corn in the mountains. The Mescalero to the south were hunter-gatherers who developed an appetite for the roasted heads of wild mescal plants. The Chiricahua, fiercest of all tribal groups, raided along the Mexican border. The more peaceble Western Apache of Arizona spent part of each year farming. Two other tribal divisions, the Lipan and Kiowa-Apache, lived as plainsmen in western Kansas and Texas.
A strict code of conduct governed Apache life, based on strong family loyalties. Each Apache group was composed of extended families or clans. Basic social, economic, and political units based on female inherited leadership. The most important bond led from an Apache mother to her children and on to her children. Marriage within one's own clan is forbidden. When the son married his obligations from then on were to his mother-in-law's family.

Beyond this code of propriety and family obligations, the Apache shared a rich oral history of myths and legends and a legacy of intense religious devotion that touched virtually every aspect of their lives.
Medicine Men presided over religious ceremonies. They believed in many spirit beings. Usen, the Giver of Life, the most powerful of them all. The Gans, or Mountain Spirits, were especially important in Apache ceremonies. Males garbed themselves in elaborate costumes to impersonate the Gans in ritual dance, wearing kilts, black masks, tall wooden-slat head-dresses, and body paint carrying wooden swords.
The Mescalero band consisted of followers and a headman. They had no formal leader such as a tribal chief, or council, nor a decision making process. The core of the band was a "relative group", predominantly, but not necessarily, kinsmen. Named by the Spanish for the mescal cactus the Apaches used for food, drink, and fiber.
One author's characterization of the Mescalero Apache people of the past is as follows: They moved freely, wintering on the Rio Grande or farther south, ranging the buffalo plains in the summer, always following the sun and the food supply. They owned nothing and everything. They did as they pleased and bowed to no man. Their women were chaste. Their leaders kept their promises. They were mighty warriors who depended on success in raiding for wealth and honor. To their families they were kind and gentle, but they could be unbelievably cruel to their enemies--fierce and revengeful when they felt that they had been betrayed. (Sonnichsen 1958:4)
The Apaches were nomadic hunter-gatherers. They chased any wild game located within their territory, especially deer and rabbits. When necessary, they lived off the land by gathering wild berries, roots, cactus fruit and seeds of the mesquite tree. They planted some corn, beans, and squash as crops. They were extremely hardy prior to the arrival of European diseases, and could live practically naked in zero temperature.
Many Apache bands were so influenced by the tribes they came into contact that they took on many of their customs and practices. Western Apaches living near the Pueblo Indians became farmers. Jicarilla Apaches pursued the great buffalo herds like other Plains Indians, mounted on horses they acquired through raids on the Spanish and Pueblos in the late 1600's. Kiowa-Apaches became more like the Kiowa, a Plains tribe, than their own Apache kin. The Lopans raised dogs for meat as many Mexican tribes to their south.
In 1871 , the original White Mountain Reservation was established. It contained today's Fort Apache and San Carlos reservations. In 1897, the land was divided into two independent reservations.

Unfortunately I didn't find any Pics of drawings showing Apaches in the XVI century
Ahem http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/8494/apache.html

[Guyus Germanicus]

Hi guys -

Beware of taking information from wikipedia too seriously. It is a freeform entry site and some of the information can be misleading or politically manipulated. From what I saw on the apache, it looked OK. But just beware.

If you're really interested in some decent reading on the subject, there are two authors that you might find interesting and highly readable, as in not too technical. For the plains apache, I can recommend George Hyde. :book: He's a former student and colleague of George Bird Grinnell who wrote so much on the Cheyenne Indians. One book of particular interest is Indians of the High Plains: From the Prehistoric Period to the Coming of the Europeans. Again, it's not stressful reading material. For the southeastern US and De Soto's 16th century trek, I recommend anything by Charles Hudson. From what Hudson and his colleagues have discovered in their digs and research, the tribes that De Soto encountered were much more sophisticated in their culture, governance and social organization than what the english settlers found in these areas 150 years later,which we learned to identify as Creeks and Cherokee. Hudson believes that the De Soto encounters and the battles he waged against these tribal settlements to gain their corn stores may have devastated their culture. Between disease and war, the tribal groups reverted to a more primitive organization. It's really quite interesting reading. Also, something that you won't see reflected in the spanish faction in the game - De Soto had war dogs with his army.

I found some articles on the Internet of a scholarly source that talk about Onde's men - the aristocratic warrior society of the Kiowa-Apache. And also found something on Koinsenko's. The Dog Soldier society was so named because of the tribesman's having had a dream vision of a dog.

Nevertheless, don't take the historicity of the America's campaign too seriously. Geographically, there are some ahistorical things on the game map, if you haven't already noticed this. The Mississippi River as depicted on the game map empties into Lake Ponchartrain. This never happened. You'll also notice that while the Rio Grande seems to be reasonably accurate in it's defining the Texas-Mexico border, as you move upstream, the river loses all resemblence with the actual course of the river. The real Rio Grande begins in the San Juan Mtns. in Colorado. Also, one more blatant 'error' - you notice that the east coast of North America looks familiar as the northeast corner of the map obviously represents what later would be known as the state of North Carolina. But when you move along that latitude due west to the west coast, the Baja peninsula still is not shown connecting to southern California. So the game map is not perfect.

Also, I've had Robert De Salle show up in Texas in the mid-16th century of the game. But De Salle didn't make his famous sortie into Texas until late in the 17th century, about 1682. I typically am having a huge French army show up in Florida in the early 16th centruy of the game. The French settlement of Fort Caroline was in the location of present day Jacksonville, Florida, not south central Florida where the Calusa tribal settlement was located. And the number of French in that expedition was small. So historical accuracy in the game is also very loose.

Interesting thing about the plains apache - in their original range they seemed to extend from just north of the Black Hills to north central Mexico. According to Hyde, it was the Shoshonean migrations of the comanche and the westward movement of more easterly tribes that forced the plains apache out of much of the original great plains homeland area. The French in New Orleans in the early 18th century trafficked in Indian slaves that were captured by other Indians in war raids. Some of the plains apache ended up victims of the Indian slave trade. Interesting that that is not a feature of the game.

One more interesting factoid: In Hudson's research of the De Soto expedition and the southeastern US, they have found no evidence of a 16th century presence of the buffalo either in the Spanish accounts of the early regional exploreres or the archeology of the older Indian sites. So it appears that the buffalo did not make it east of the Mississippi River in numbers until the 17th century.

I'm not too put out with the artistic depiction of the apache warriors in the game. Indians were actually very adaptable to fashion and new technologies up to a point. A living history lecturer at Bent's Old Fort along the Arkansas River shared with us that the most popular trade item at the fort (1830's) was the iron pot. It allowed the Indians to be able to cook over an open fire rather than bury their food underneath hot coals. Also, the Indians liked the red dye vermillion for their war paints and cosmetics. The vermillion came from the China/orient trade and made it to Bent's Fort via New Orleans.

I'm grown very fond of the apache faction in the game.

[Shahed]

Wooohaaa ! This has developed into a GREAT thread.

Apache is a broad generalisation in Kingdoms like Turk or Egy is in MTW:VI & M2:TW.
We've already established that of course, just wanted to drop my perspective.

[Guyus Germanicus]

Wooohaaa ! This has developed into a GREAT thread.

Apache is a broad generalisation in Kingdoms like Turk or Egy is in MTW:VI & M2:TW.
We've already established that of course, just wanted to drop my perspective.

Point well made.

Here's my :2cents: The M2TW campaign game starts in 1080. That's just a few years after the Seljuk Turks defeated the Byzantine Army at Manzikert. The time period overlaps a huge historical era. The Ottomans didn't show up until the mid-14th century. The first Mamluk sultan didn't reign until 1250.

I found a real neat book today entitled The Knights of Islam: The Wars of the Mamluks by James Waterson. There are a couple of great lists showing the line of Mamluk sultans and the khans of Persian and the Golden Horde. There are several maps and a chronology of the period that corresponds to the time period of M2TW and beyond. The book just came out this year, London: Greenhill publishers. The author appears to go into some detail on the campaigns as well as their code of war and their training. The slave soldiers of Islam. It looks interesting.

[Shahed]

Excellent. Thanks for the tip Germanicus, I will look it up.

Varro that is an excellent sig. Can you make me one if you have time please ? 10kb max, whatever image manipulation you choose, Thunder Braves. Would appreciate it greatly, but only if you have free time.

Salute !

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

guess I got lucky on mine

http://ww2.beffo.se/upload/pic~/kt02y1ujpetk.JPG

add own text

http://ww2.beffo.se/upload/pic~/8shm99r1gmzn.JPG

[Shahed]

Awesome! THANKS! Only I forgot to write Mounted Thunder Braves. Think you can ? I'm going to use those two anyway though.