View Full Version : A question regarding swastikas
Everyone knows that the Swastika was used by the Nazis and, as a result, most people equate it with the holocaust (among other negative aspects).
However, the Swastika as a symbol had existed for about 3000 years BEFORE the Nazis appropriated it, and was even used in parts of Europe as a symbol for good luck, life, and strength. It has been found emblazoned on an ancient greek helmet and on a Roman mosaic, and given the symbol's prevalence in India and other eastern countries, it seems logical to assume that the native peoples of the Diadochoi (Baktria, the easternmost segments of AS, etc) would have used it before, during, and after Alexander's conquest and the rule of the Diadochoi. It also seems logical that, if it represented good luck, it would have been used by soldiers as a way of 'protecting' themselves and getting through a war alive (even Viking reconstructionists use a stylized Swastika on their shields) When considered in the context of history, it's only been recently that it's come to represent, at least in the western world, pure evil.
So, my question to the EB team is this: Your units are created using archeological and source-based evidence, so as to give the game more authenticity. However, if a certain unit (or units) of the eastern Diadochoi factions widely used the Swastika as a symbol (or even if western european soldiers used it) on their armour/shields, would you stick to historical accuracy and include it on the unit model? Or do you think it would be more prudent to avoid any controversy (because of its negative connotations in the west) and not include it?
And to the people in the EB forum, my question is: If the symbol was used in the above-mentioned example, SHOULD the EB team include it? Or would the risk of controversy be too great?
And before anyone starts with comments like 'Did you learn that version of history in your monthly neo-nazi meeting?' I'm including three links to three different websites (wikipedia, inevitably, is included) which basically say everything I've said about the symbol's history. The links are below, check them out if you don't believe me (The swastika on the greek helmet and on the Roman mosaic can be found in the pics in the wiki article. You have to click on the greek helmet image, though, if you wanna see it clearly):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm
http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml
On a related note, I'm not starting this topic to start any trouble, encourage trolling, arguments, or controversy. I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. Please believe me that I don't want to start a flame war, or accuse anyone of anything, I just want to know if the EB team would include a symbol equated with Nazism (in the western world) in a game set in a period of time in which Nazis, evidently, did not exist. I'm just basically looking for a bluntly honest answer, really. Nothing more.
One last thing. If this topic has already been brought up and solved, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm new to the forum and to the game, see, so I don't know what's been discussed here before.
The_Mark
10-09-2007, 13:36
Ye gods, your post will make many an EBer happy. A textbook example of asking a question! :2thumbsup:
The blunt honest answer to your question is, it was done to avoid controversy, especially in Germany. Others will probably elaborate a bit more on this, at least the should, just for the sake of your post.
Tellos Athenaios
10-09-2007, 13:50
AFAIK: a swastika is a typical symbol of the sun; and the sun has always been compared to everything good/pleasant/happy in this world. Simple as that. However there are more forms of swastika than the one the Nazi's used as their eblem; and they are all fairly common. (Swirls, rounded of; backwards etc. etc. triangonal, etc. etc.) The one symbol we immediately associate the word Swastika with (the Nazi emblem) appears to be illegal (barring some exceptions) in for example Germany.
AFAIK: the people who make the units decided therefore that they would use other equally common symbols as shield motifs:
-You can only use one per unit; and out of accuracy reasons you don't prefer one over another;
-It prevents you from having to explain this to ignorant people who never think past the word Nazism whenever they see a swastika.
-It keeps your mod legal in countries who've forbidden swastika's; among them Germany.
@The_Mark: ye gods! Your forecast of when the next release of EB will be; is bound to make many people out there very, very unhappy when they realise it.
overweightninja
10-09-2007, 14:05
They could always include it as a separate option like the "modesty patch" for the Gesatae. Personally with all the legal/ethical issues swarming around it if an alternative was available I would use it though and just leave the whole damn thing alone :laugh4: .
Oh and as an aside IIRC the Jews actually had a symbol for peace or something that was a Swastika in reverse (although I can't remember where I saw this and how true it is, if someone could confirm for me would be interested!)
Cheers
EDIT oh and btw as The_Mark said, when I first saw this here I thought oh god here we go not in EB too! (Quite into Day of Defeat as well as EB and the amount of hassle I've had with clan recruits grr) but yes a surprisingly good question actually :smash:
Hooahguy
10-09-2007, 14:08
nope. its called a Chamtzah, IIRC.... im not sure- but is definitly not a swastica in reverse. its a hand.
btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....
btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number
The_Mark
10-09-2007, 14:16
Spoilsport :brood:
overweightninja
10-09-2007, 14:18
nope. its called a Chamtzah, IIRC.... im not sure- but is definitly not a swastica in reverse. its a hand.
btw, i dont get The_Marks calculation of the release date....
You changed it's name! :beam:
Any information/links on it?
Hooahguy
10-09-2007, 14:37
b/c i asked my rabbi and he told me what it was called. :beam:
EDIT: cant find any good info on it. sorry- but i know it means s/t good.....
-It keeps your mod legal in countries who've forbidden swastika's; among them Germany.
If that would be correct, EB would already be illegal in Germany because the swastika is shown on Spanish Eleutheroi settlements. But fortunate enough, things are a little more difficult: sawstikas and a lot of other symbols are forbidden when are/might be/considered to be relating to the 'Third Reich', Neo-Nazi organization or anything like that (the term is "verfassungsfeindlich"). In the case of EB there is evidently no such meaning connected with the swastikas shown - neverless you would have problems selling it in shops.
blitzkrieg80
10-09-2007, 16:50
yep- basically ONLY Germans nowadays have to play it safe and not use their own ancient symbols of the Bronze age and earlier (which as commented: represent the SUN, hardly anything inappropriate or evil) for the sake of ignorance all over the world concerning the real symbol, simply because of Nazi stupidity... Hitler did more to destroy German heritage than anything he pretended in helping, since now (post ww2) it's even un-hip among academics nonetheless common people to be interested or discuss anything German... with the inevitable references to uber-men abounding ~;p
I suppose we should figure out a way to cover the Sun up so no one gets offended when they walk outside.
The Celtic Viking
10-09-2007, 16:52
Personally, I don't think they should be included just because they can (I mean, without straying from their path of historical accuracy - obviously the possibility to include them would still be there). But I also don't think that they shouldn't be included just because of controversy - if they existed they existed, and it's not something that should be swiped under the rug. So if it was common enough, it should find a place in the mod IMO. If someone then is offended by it, well, quite frankly I don't care. What a horrible person I am.
Bootsiuv
10-09-2007, 17:54
Wasn't the swastika originally reversed? Didn't the Nazis use a 'mirror image' for their swastika? I thought I heard it somewhere.
macsen rufus
10-09-2007, 18:02
Wasn't the swastika originally reversed?
:yes:
The ancient swatika was intended to represent rotation, and the Nazi version reversed that rotation - probably derived from Himmler's occult obsession.
The original image appears both clockwise and anti-clockwise.
Foot
Bootsiuv
10-09-2007, 18:23
I thought so....thanks for the clarification guys. Who needs the history channel when you have the EB forums instead!?! :2thumbsup:
Mouzafphaerre
10-09-2007, 18:33
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The Swastika on the walls of the ruins of Ani, ancient Armenian-Georgian (Bagrat) city in NE Turkey:
https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8644/img301oj1.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img301oj1.jpg) https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7094/img302uw4.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img302uw4.jpg) https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/259/img005zr4.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img005zr4.jpg)
The photos were taken by me in Aug. 2006; crazily resized down here.
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RTR uses a reversed swastika on the shield of a skirmisher unit...
Andronikos
10-09-2007, 19:03
I agree with Blitz. When nazi liked german culture, should we ban it? Should we ban niebelungenlied, norse sagas or artworks of romantism containing german mythology? No, it would be crazy to ban it. And only because someone ill-minded liked it you cannot like it too without being silly like nazi?
But I also agree that it is better to don't use swastika and not have to solve problems about it.
I Am Herenow
10-09-2007, 19:11
Well, simply put, wouldn't you feel a bit uneasy if you were controlling little soldiers with swastikas on their shields? The game is meant to be fun, after all - hence the modesty patch, as seeing naked men running about can also make people slightly uncomfortable.
Bootsiuv
10-09-2007, 19:16
Not really. I don't relate to things too well that happened 40 years before I was born. I am also aware of it's historical significance prior to the 1930's.
I do understand how it would make some others uncomfortable though.
I Am Herenow
10-09-2007, 19:17
I do understand how it would make some others uncomfortable though.
That's what I mean: it would jump out at you/jarr with the rest of the game, even if you knew better.
That's what I mean: it would jump out at you/jarr with the rest of the game, even if you knew better.
It wouldn't for me. I can safely and reliably differentiate between the swastika as used by neo-nazi groups to remember and relive the fascist ideologies and nationalist politics of the Nazi Part of German, and the ancient symbol found in many indo-european cultures across europa and asia. But maybe thats just me...
Foot
Eventhough I know about said Swastika in ancient times, I must say the first thing I associate it with is the hideous acts carried out by the nazi party, as generally people learn about the nazi use of the swastika before the ancient uses of it. I agree with overweightninja, if it is included for historical reasons which I am in no way, shape or form against, then a patch along the lines of the Gaesatae Modesty Patch should be released as well.
Watchman
10-09-2007, 20:01
IMHO anyone who couldn't make the distinction was playing the wrong game to begin with. And/or should sharpen his or her Wiki-fu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) a bit.
:shame:
But then again I have notoriously little patience with that sort of ignorance.
I Am Herenow
10-09-2007, 20:08
Like I say, looking at it can still make people feel a bit uncomfortable, even if they do know why it's in the game. Best to leave it if there's an alternative shield design/whatever that can be used IMO.
IMHO anyone who couldn't make the distinction was playing the wrong game to begin with. And/or should sharpen his or her Wiki-fu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) a bit.
:shame:
But then again I have notoriously little patience with that sort of ignorance.
I didn't realise it was so widely spread throughout human culture. Very interesting.
Foot
Watchman
10-09-2007, 20:18
I've read it was a popular good-luck charm among soldiers around the end of WW1 actually. But in any case we were using it in official functions long before those poseur Nazis even existed...
(I've heard they only changed the Order of the White Rose's Grand Cross with Chains from the original pattern after a certain Charles de Gaulle had politely turned down the thing during a state visit... something about it not being appropriate for him to wear something with swastikas.)
Like I say, looking at it can still make people feel a bit uncomfortable, even if they do know why it's in the game.
Well, who cares about people unable to see and accept the difference between neo-nazi idiots and adequate representation of ancient indo-european culture?
Bootsiuv
10-09-2007, 20:57
Although, like others have said, is it not illegal in Germany? No matter which direction it is oriented?
Considering how many Germans play EB, it might not be the best idea to get EB banned in Germany (although it would be pretty silly if they did, considering the context it would be used in).
Oleander Ardens
10-09-2007, 21:11
When I was in India my trekking partner from Israel seemed especially keen to make fotos of Swastikas - a strange kind of attraction, a playful way to confront a sign under a part of his family was killed. Said that I would prefer to have a mod with would alllow the inclusion of it, because it was a symbol of great importance for many ancient cultures...
I quite sure that no person will accuse me to spread Nazi propaganda for advocating this policy :idea2:
Cheers
OA
johhny-turbo
10-09-2007, 22:16
If it was prevelant enough among something in the game, then include it.
I think this would be even easier to do in EB2 when different models for the same unit comes along.
Bootsiuv
10-09-2007, 22:33
While I agree that it's inclusion is warranted based solely on historical significance, I think it might create more controversy than it's worth....at least in EB1.
Is it really that important to have that symbol adorn your shields? Like others have said, there are several other symbols which wouldn't require a disclaimer and constant questioning and/or flaming by those less enlightened.
The final decision rests with the team, but I really don't see the need for such things. I would have nothing against it (and would likely enjoy it's inclusion), but I am not everyone, and I have no experience (first hand, anyways) with the symbol in a negative way.
Just my humble opinion. :bow:
If that would be correct, EB would already be illegal in Germany because the swastika is shown on Spanish Eleutheroi settlements.
Actually no. That symbol is set of "whirling tears". The appearance of the swastika is an optical illusion, but even that was probably enough to demote this symbol to second place when the EB Team was voting for the new Lusotannan symbol (replacing "Iberia").
This is an interesting topic, btw, and it mirrors a discussion that recently occurred among the team. Most members feel it's not worth using the swastika, as the resulting controversy would overshadow the 99.9999% that is "good" in EB.
For the curious, the difference between this controversy and that involving naked units is that we KNOW certain warriors of this time period fought nude, and to ignore that would be to blatantly change history. Much of our weapon and armor art is derived from ornamentation displayed elsewhere in the various cultures, but usually not something where we have hard evidence that it appeared on a sword, shield, or breastplate. However. If archaeologists unearthed a well-attested shield from this time period and it CLEARLY had swastikas on it? Well, that would be enough to sway me into recommending it's use in game. Otherwise, it's just gratuitous.
i would prefer it is kept out of the game, or at least is not used in association with germanic units. it certainly brings back unpleasant memories of what the germans inflicted on the world in the 30's and 40's.
artavazd
10-10-2007, 07:06
Stalin inflicted alot during the 30's and 40's as well.
The Swastika is found in ancient indo-european cultures. In Armenia, the Swastika represented the sun and the cycle of life. Even after Armenia became a christian nation, the swatika was a part of life. Here is an image of the medival city of Ani which was the capital of Armenia during the Bagratuni kings. ( a branch of the Armenian Bagratuni's became kings of Georgia lasting until 1801 AD)
http://www.hayary.org/images/star_pictures/ani.jpg
these are cave paintings from Armenia:
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_3840.jpg
artifacts showing the diffrent forms of the life cycle "swastika" :
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_2687.jpg
more images:
http://www.armenianhighland.com/images/nkarner/nkar_3447.jpg
Mouzafphaerre
10-10-2007, 07:29
.
.
The Swastika on the walls of the ruins of Ani, ancient Armenian-Georgian (Bagrat) city in NE Turkey:
https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8644/img301oj1.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img301oj1.jpg) https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7094/img302uw4.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img302uw4.jpg) https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/259/img005zr4.th.jpg (https://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img005zr4.jpg)
The photos were taken by me in Aug. 2006; crazily resized down here.
.
Here is an image of the medival city of Ani which was the capital of Armenia during the Bagratuni kings. ( a branch of the Armenian Bagratuni's became kings of Georgia lasting until 1801 AD)
http://www.hayary.org/images/star_pictures/ani.jpg
~;)
.
Garbarsardar
10-10-2007, 08:07
Living in Taiwan, I'm pretty used in seeing Swastikas around me despite the initial cultural shock. Furthermore in HOI2 I use the Swastika modification since it is rather silly to play as (or against) Germany with that visual element absent; that undermines greatly historical accuracy.
That said, gaming and fora are totally different beasts than the real world. A release with swastikas is bound to be misinterpreted by many and it is really up to the EB team if they would welcome this kind of controversy. There is no such thing as bad publicity, I am aware of that tenant, but I feel that all factors consider the inclusion of an historically accurate but so unfortunately tainted symbol is bound to create unnecessary distraction from the virtues of such an excellent mod.
I would be slightly afraid of any person who confused the EB team with a splinter group from Combat 18.
What I don't get is that people, who have no problem with exterminating the populace of ancient cities will get all uppity with cultural symbols, which for a short period of a very long history was associated with morally outrageous regime, but otherwise had no such connotations. Can't we be ever more slightly enlightened. I can understand why they would be banned as graffiti in much of western europe, but to be outraged for their appearance in a computer game which deals in a time before the use of the swastika as a symbol of brutality and evil is, in my opinion, to be blinded by the same emotion and generalisation that was behind the facist though of the 20th century.
Foot
I would be slightly afraid of any person who confused the EB team with a splinter group from Combat 18.
What I don't get is that people, who have no problem with exterminating the populace of ancient cities will get all uppity with cultural symbols, which for a short period of a very long history was associated with morally outrageous regime, but otherwise had no such connotations. Can't we be ever more slightly enlightened. I can understand why they would be banned as graffiti in much of western europe, but to be outraged for their appearance in a computer game which deals in a time before the use of the swastika as a symbol of brutality and evil is, in my opinion, to be blinded by the same emotion and generalisation that was behind the facist though of the 20th century.
Foot
Well said.
Also, i have to wonder why the hammer and sickle aren't banned... :book:
Watchman
10-10-2007, 12:18
I don't know about you, but I rather prefer hammers to rocks when I need to pound in nails...
'S not like the Soviets trademarked those tools or anything.
Anyway, if there was a historical-accuracy reason to have the symbol in the game somewhere it should IMO then be in; if some *SILLY COW* who hasn't done his homework goes and gets his undies all a-twist over it, his loss. But then I've never had much time for such people anyway.
I don't know about you, but I rather prefer hammers to rocks when I need to pound in nails...
'S not like the Soviets trademarked those tools or anything.
...and the nazis "trademarked" the swastika? :dizzy2:
I was talking about the symbol of hammer and sickle crossed, not the tools themselves :laugh4:
I just can't get over the fact that it's outlawed in some places, as if the symbol itself has caused harm.
blitzkrieg80
10-10-2007, 17:49
next the symbol itself will be considered a "hate" crime, since normal crimes aren't illegal enough. now if only we had a prison designed for pictures and ideas... maybe we should just start destroying all evidence of it and making it manditory to visit Clockword Orange centers to have regular check-ups on our thoughts: it won't reduce hate or violence, but we can feel righteous and moral
maybe Russia should have 'looking like a gnarled gnome' banned, since Stalin gave that image such a horrible reputation :grin: poor gnarled gnome people everywhere get a bad rap because of the coincidence of looking like him... poor Dennis Kucinich ~;)
My attitude is this, and what I shared with the team when I was an active member:
EB is not trying to make a political statement, or thumb its collective nose at the establishment. EB is simply making a mod for our, and everyone's, enjoyment.
Things that are offensive, for whatever reason, will either not be included or be an optional inclusion. It really is that simple. Many different justifications may be used for their inclusion, and many invalid assumptions about what kind of statement we make when we don't include them might be found, but in the end it really is simple.
If people will be greatly offended by it, regardless of why, it either isn't included or is optional.
Any further philosophical or sociological discussion is just that, discussion for the sake of discussion and is outside the scope of what EB is.
artavazd
10-10-2007, 20:30
Mouzafphaerre are you Georgian?
I could just see it. 100 years from now the German people are STILL going to be reminded every day how "bad" their great grand fathers were. Mind you the Germans have paid their depts, and this force of guilt on them should stop.
A nation whose people have faced a genocide such as Israel does not recognize the Armenian genocide, practices a similar one with the Palestinians, and lobbies in Washington DC for her ally Turkey to not get the Armenian genoicde passed in congress. but at the same time it is illigal to debate ANY aspect of the Holocaust. Its intresting on how some people go to jail for their thoughts, and some people get away with murder.
Swastika is older then Hitler and the Third Riech if it is historicaly accurate (which it is) to have this indo-european life cycle in the game then it should be in the game.
Watchman
10-10-2007, 20:38
I've actually gotten the impression the Germans themselves do most of the flagellation on the topic. Can't blame them for having a sort of collective bad conscience about it, but it gets downright embarassing at times. "Lay it off man - that was your grandparents, not you" kind of thing, if you know what I mean.
Then again, we were sort of allied to them at the time.
artavazd
10-10-2007, 20:59
I've actually gotten the impression the Germans themselves do most of the flagellation on the topic. Can't blame them for having a sort of collective bad conscience about it, but it gets downright embarassing at times. "Lay it off man - that was your grandparents, not you" kind of thing, if you know what I mean.
Then again, we were sort of allied to them at the time.
it is the policies, and the education system that breeds guilt in the people. We have a saying in Armenian, I think I've heard it in English as well.
THE FISH STINKS FROM THE HEAD
Anastasios Helios
10-10-2007, 21:49
First of all...the Führer was a git.
The Nazis used the swastika because they believed it to be a long lost link with their supposed 'Aryan' (forgive me for the use of this word) brothers in northern India. The swastika was not only used by Indo-European cultures, evidence of swastikas have been found in the old Meso-American civilizations, East Asia, and G-d knows where. Personally, I am not against the use of the swastika on the game...it is a bad symbol only when people make it bad. I wish that people would stop trying to be politically correct all of the time and don't be afraid of their history. I live in Mississippi and I hardly care if rednecks want to fly Confederate flags in their yard...it doesn't bother me to see people celebrating their heritage. If the old Germanic cultures used it in their art...then I wanna see some german clubmen with swastikas on their shields beating the shit out of Roman legionnaires.
Mouzafphaerre
10-11-2007, 05:34
.
Mouzafphaerre are you Georgian?
Nope, Turkish with no extra ethnic attributes AFAIK, except one of my great-grandmothers being probably Circassian, but with roots in modern day Armenia and Azerbaijan (Karabağ, Erivan, Sofyan) 9 generations back. ~:)
A nation whose people have faced a genocide such as Israel does not recognize the Armenian genocide, practices a similar one with the Palestinians, and lobbies in Washington DC for her ally Turkey to not get the Armenian genoicde passed in congress. but at the same time it is illigal to debate ANY aspect of the Holocaust. Its intresting on how some people go to jail for their thoughts, and some people get away with murder.
Dirty politics all around the world. :shrug: The Holocaust has been used as propaganda material to firmly establish the Jewish state in ME. (Just in case, I'm not a Holocaust denier, and thank God I'm devoid and sick of all kinds of nationalism and counter-nationalism.) Armenian genocide, OTOH, is often used against Turkey as political blackmailing material but never fully recognized just to keep it hot when need be, and easily play with the pseudo-fascist Turkish state.
THE FISH STINKS FROM THE HEAD
It exists in exact translation ("Balık baştan kokar.") and meaning in Turkish.
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artavazd
10-11-2007, 08:33
WOW first time I have talked with a Turk as two decent human beings should. I agree with you on all the points you made. My fathers side is from Karin ( Erzerum) and my mothers side is from Van. Take care friend :2thumbsup:
Kurulham
10-11-2007, 08:53
Personally, I'm glad they weren't included, and if they were and a patch were provided to remove them I'd make use of it. This isn't because I'm unaware of the ancient and noble heritage of the swastika but because of the fact that, despite all the study in the world, my knee-jerk, split-second reaction when I see the symbol, right-handed or left-handed, is "ZOMG NAZIS". It would be very distracting.
Makes it rather interesting being over here in Japan as the right-handed swastika, termed manji, is the universal sign on maps for "Buddhist site of interest", much as the torii gate for a Shinto site or a cross for a church in the West. You go looking for the Kamakura Daibutsu and suddenly your brain goes ZOMG NAZIS at you. Odd.
Mouzafphaerre
10-11-2007, 09:32
WOW first time I have talked with a Turk as two decent human beings should. I agree with you on all the points you made. My fathers side is from Karin ( Erzerum) and my mothers side is from Van. Take care friend :2thumbsup:
.
:bow:
.
Then again, we were sort of allied to them at the time.
And still managed to maintain a moral high ground. Damn we're good.
...well okay, we lost the moral high ground with the alliance for some eyes, but it doesn't matter when switched to kickass gear.
The_Mark
10-11-2007, 11:44
Don't forget, after we beat the Ruskies off we beat the Gerries out of Finland as well. In essence, we fought bought the Allies and the Axis in WW2 and still survived with one of the three unoccupied capitals (the other two being London and Moscow) amongst the war-faring countries of Europe: Helsinki!
Yes, we're that good.
Watchman
10-11-2007, 12:58
I believe the applicable term is "rats abandoning a sinking ship" mind you. :beam:
As far as the swastika, perhaps if we some how show some of the major groups that have serious issues with the swastika, and explain the context to which it would be used; maybe they'll to sign off on it, for example> by doing what the show "Family Guy" did, they have a episode called "Once upon a Wienstien" and showed it to about of Rabbies, the Rabbies were cool with it and it showed on both the 1st season DVD and on TV. So by sitting down with those various groups and kinda show them that this has nothing to do with Nazism, Neo-Nazism or any other "ism" but a symbol used by various other cultures around the world. By doing this, it might defuse any group from seriously freaking out?
:england: :france: :denmark:
the_handsome_viking
10-11-2007, 14:44
Everyone knows that the Swastika was used by the Nazis and, as a result, most people equate it with the holocaust (among other negative aspects).
However, the Swastika as a symbol had existed for about 3000 years BEFORE the Nazis appropriated it, and was even used in parts of Europe as a symbol for good luck, life, and strength. It has been found emblazoned on an ancient greek helmet and on a Roman mosaic, and given the symbol's prevalence in India and other eastern countries, it seems logical to assume that the native peoples of the Diadochoi (Baktria, the easternmost segments of AS, etc) would have used it before, during, and after Alexander's conquest and the rule of the Diadochoi. It also seems logical that, if it represented good luck, it would have been used by soldiers as a way of 'protecting' themselves and getting through a war alive (even Viking reconstructionists use a stylized Swastika on their shields) When considered in the context of history, it's only been recently that it's come to represent, at least in the western world, pure evil.
So, my question to the EB team is this: Your units are created using archeological and source-based evidence, so as to give the game more authenticity. However, if a certain unit (or units) of the eastern Diadochoi factions widely used the Swastika as a symbol (or even if western european soldiers used it) on their armour/shields, would you stick to historical accuracy and include it on the unit model? Or do you think it would be more prudent to avoid any controversy (because of its negative connotations in the west) and not include it?
And to the people in the EB forum, my question is: If the symbol was used in the above-mentioned example, SHOULD the EB team include it? Or would the risk of controversy be too great?
And before anyone starts with comments like 'Did you learn that version of history in your monthly neo-nazi meeting?' I'm including three links to three different websites (wikipedia, inevitably, is included) which basically say everything I've said about the symbol's history. The links are below, check them out if you don't believe me (The swastika on the greek helmet and on the Roman mosaic can be found in the pics in the wiki article. You have to click on the greek helmet image, though, if you wanna see it clearly):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swastika/a/swastikahistory.htm
http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa086.shtml
On a related note, I'm not starting this topic to start any trouble, encourage trolling, arguments, or controversy. I'm asking this out of genuine curiosity. Please believe me that I don't want to start a flame war, or accuse anyone of anything, I just want to know if the EB team would include a symbol equated with Nazism (in the western world) in a game set in a period of time in which Nazis, evidently, did not exist. I'm just basically looking for a bluntly honest answer, really. Nothing more.
One last thing. If this topic has already been brought up and solved, I apologize profusely in advance. I'm new to the forum and to the game, see, so I don't know what's been discussed here before.
Because it would be used for scholarly reasons, the German laws would have nothing against it, infact, I would go as far as to say one would have to be remarkably stupid, uneducated or both to accuse EB of being a stomping ground for national socialists.
That said I do find it somewhat Ironic that manly of the cultures and peoples depicted in EB are by modern standards absolutely worse than the conventional morality that deems the Nazis evil.
But generally speaking theres entirely no reason why the Swastika cant be in the game, National Socialism wasn't around during 300bc.
macsen rufus
10-11-2007, 15:01
Personally, I'd love to rehabilitate the swastika from the taint of Nazism and return it to what it once was, a life-affirming symbol of light. However, I don't see the need for a game to be in the forefront of that fight, and I'd rather know the EB team were doing more of their excellent creative work on the mod than wasting time fighting off law-suits, hate mail or whatever. Maybe with EB37.0 release the world may have moved on enough, but not yet. I support the developers in their decision :bow:
Me -being a German- thinks:
- I would not want to confuse the historically correct with the political incorrect. In my eyes it is 2 kinds of shoes. I think all the EB members understood that...Well, most if i recall some minor intelligent posts by a tiny minority of people in the community.
Back to topic: It may well be, that if some random person checks pictures in the web or a parent looks at the screen of little son's monitor...they may think "What the heck?". On a second look every minor intelligent person should get the idea that a half-naked, tunika-pimping and Javelin throwing freak with long hair was not your average Wehrmachts- or SS Übersoldat...in case any existed.
- Besides that: I just outright hate the people wearing the symbol. In fact it is the only category of people i generalize in a negative way...oh, and people chatting and swimming next to each other in crowded public pools, but that's a different story.
- Plus: I just do not like the design....so I don´t wanna/have to have it in the game....:2cents:
The_Mark
10-11-2007, 16:45
Back to topic: It may well be, that if some random person checks pictures in the web or a parent looks at the screen of little son's monitor...they may think "What the heck?". On a second look every minor intelligent person should get the idea that a half-naked, tunika-pimping and Javelin throwing freak with long hair was not your average Wehrmachts- or SS Übersoldat...in case any existed.
Idiots are more plentiful than those possessing even minor quantities of intelligence, and they're much more loud and annoying.
The scenario Subedei described could really turn in a South-Park-esque scenario with concerned parents boycotting EB.
Watchman
10-11-2007, 19:32
So what's wrong with free publicity ? :sweatdrop:
Mouzafphaerre
10-12-2007, 09:38
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Ban the cross too. It was on the Nazi flag. :gah2:
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Kampfkrebs
10-12-2007, 09:53
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Ban the cross too. It was on the Nazi flag. :gah2:
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It is called balkenkreuz, not a cross <.<
please inform youself before posting about bad nazis :skull:
It is called balkenkreuz, not a cross <.<
please inform youself before posting about bad nazis :skull:
??? He may not be a native German speaker...You may have noticed it, if you informed yourself about the location he comes from. No offence KK, I am a native German speaker and I did not know about the Balken-thingy. AFAIK everbody in Germany calls it "Hakenkreuz"...and Kreuz translates into "cross". Right? So what is your point?
Kampfkrebs
10-12-2007, 10:52
I know he is not a native speaker.
Lets take a look at some crosses:
This is a Balkenkreuz (I use the german word because there is no english word for it afaik)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Balkenkreuz.svg/180px-Balkenkreuz.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Balkenkreuz.svg/180px-Balkenkreuz.svg.png)
This was used by the Wehrmacht (third "reich" army). This is bad.
This is a Tatzenkreuz (again there isnt a english word for it)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg/95px-Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg/95px-Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg.png)
This is used by the modern day german army (Bundeswehr - "Federal defence"). This is good.
And how a Hakenkreuz (Swastika) looks does hopefully everyone know, so no need to post a pic.
So what is your point?
There are so many different kinds of crosses around the world, so you cant say "ban the cross", because there isnt "THE cross". Every cross has it special name, that is what I wanted to say. (Yes I know Mouzafphaerre´s post was meant ironically )
(So, sesamstraße zu ende :clown: )
O.k., I got the point. Who would have expected crosses to be that numerous in specifications.
["Wer nicht fragt, bleibt dumm!" Grüße in den geliebten Pott!]
blitzkrieg80
10-12-2007, 16:29
no, i think the point is that ALL crosses should be banned, which means crucifixes too.
and like i said before, ALL gnomes should be banned, especially gnarled ones (damn you Staaaaaalin!)... your Nisse and garden gnomes are borderline but ok because they're just sooo cute :grin:
Mouzafphaerre
10-12-2007, 16:43
It is called balkenkreuz, not a cross <.<
please inform youself before posting about bad nazis :skull:
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I didn't take this offensive and the <.< is sort of a smiley I believe. But thanks anyway Subudei. :bow:
Kampfkrebs, as there are many types of crosses, there are at least more than one types of swastikas. ~;) But indeed, my post was a gahly one. ~;)
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Kampfkrebs
10-12-2007, 17:23
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I didn't take this offensive and the <.< is sort of a smiley I believe.
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Yes, this wasnt meant to be offensive,just wanted to.....gah forget it, BAN ALL TEH CROSSES PLZ!!!1
Watchman
10-13-2007, 09:29
This is a Tatzenkreuz (again there isnt a english word for it)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg/95px-Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg/95px-Bundeswehr_Kreuz.svg.png)Isn't that form usually called "Maltese cross" in English ?
Random side note: I was looking through a book on WW1 German tanks yesterday. Guess which later rather notorious symbol was in one variation used as a tactical recognition marking by one unit...?
Originality clearly wasn't the Nazis' strong suit.
Clearly, this is the road to runes, or was that Og'hum?
Isn't that form usually called "Maltese cross" in English ?
Random side note: I was looking through a book on WW1 German tanks yesterday. Guess which later rather notorious symbol was in one variation used as a tactical recognition marking by one unit...?
Originality clearly wasn't the Nazis' strong suit.
Nope, a Maltese cross is different (and isn't that name used everywhere?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross
The one pictured is a variant of the iron cross:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross
Which is a form of Cross pattée:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_patt%C3%A9e
This is a Balkenkreuz (I use the german word because there is no english word for it afaik)
This was used by the Wehrmacht (third "reich" army). This is bad.
This is a Tatzenkreuz (again there isnt a english word for it)
This is used by the modern day german army (Bundeswehr - "Federal defence"). This is good.
Actually the Nazis used both types. Beats me why Germans tossed out one of them after the war and kept the other.
The Tatzenkreuz was also referred to as the Eisernes Kreuz in German (when used as a decoration), hence the English name Iron Cross.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisernes_Kreuz
Kampfkrebs
10-13-2007, 11:55
Actually the Nazis used both types. Beats me why Germans tossed out one of them after the war and kept the other.
The Tatzenkreuz was also referred to as the Eisernes Kreuz in German (when used as a decoration), hence the English name Iron Cross.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisernes_Kreuz
The Iron cross form (aka Tatzenkreuz) was only used on german medals, and according to wikipedia a quite long time.
AFAIK the Tatzenkreuz/Iron cross form was never used as a symbol on military materials/gear (like aircrafts, tanks, uniforms), and it was never used as a propaganda thingy by the nazis (unlike the Balkenkreuz). This may be the reason why the Bundeswehr took it as their symbol today, and if they want to be related to some former german military organisation (but officially they are "in tradition" to noone, also "standalone" in history), its the old Reichwehr from the Weimarer republic (first democratic - at least on the paper - governorment germany ever had).
Im not a history prof. and my favourite history scenarios are the diadochi and arround, but what Ive written should be ok like it is.
Legatus Legionis
10-13-2007, 11:59
Actually the Tatzenkreuz was used during the 1st WW by Germany. I have no clue why the Nazis changed it.
http://web2.altmuehlnet.de/luklam/Modellbau/Plaene/Fokker%20Dr1.jpg
Actually the Nazis used both types. Beats me why Germans tossed out one of them after the war and kept the other.
The Tatzenkreuz was also referred to as the Eisernes Kreuz in German (when used as a decoration), hence the English name Iron Cross.
The reason is that the Iron Cross has nothing to do with the Nazi Party. It was, and still is, a symbol of the German (before 1871: Prussian) army since 1813. The only fact that links it to the NS-periode is that it was also used by the army between 1933 and 1945.
Mouzafphaerre
10-13-2007, 15:27
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There are a few Iron Crosses in our family inheritence, dressed to my grandfather's uncle, who was an Ottoman general in the WW1 (as well as before and after, and died as a retired Republican general). He was the second man in Gallipoli, chief of staff to Von Sanders.
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The reason is that the Iron Cross has nothing to do with the Nazi Party. It was, and still is, a symbol of the German (before 1871: Prussian) army since 1813. The only fact that links it to the NS-periode is that it was also used by the army between 1933 and 1945.
Yeah but the balkenkreuz AFAIK didn't have any more association with the nazis than the Iron Cross. It was just used on planes, tanks etc. (and was introduced in late WWI).
Yeah but the balkenkreuz AFAIK didn't have any more association with the nazis than the Iron Cross. It was just used on planes, tanks etc. (and was introduced in late WWI).
It was a variation that was introduced by the navy in 1916, when Hitler was a little private, Goebbels was studing to become a priest, Göring was pilot under Richthofen, Himmler was still at school and no one had an idea what 'Nazi' should be.
And of course, it was used on German planes, tanks etc., it was an military identifying mark.
Kampfkrebs
10-13-2007, 19:26
The balkenkreuz and the Iron cross is the same
Balkenkreuz is the shape of the iron cross :laugh4:
€dit: not balkenkreuz of course, I mean tatzenkreuz
It was a variation that was introduced by the navy in 1916, when Hitler was a little private, Goebbels was studing to become a priest, Göring was pilot under Richthofen, Himmler was still at school and no one had an idea what 'Nazi' should be.
And of course, it was used on German planes, tanks etc., it was an military identifying mark.
Exactly. Both of those crosses were used before the nazi party existed and were used by the armed forces with no special nazi connotations (unlike the swastika). Which is why I find it a little odd if Germany allows one but not the other.
Which is why I find it a little odd if Germany allows one but not the other.
I don't know what actually were the reasons to return to the old style 1955. For sure, distinguishing the new Bundeswehr from the WWII Wehrmacht was an argument. That should probbaly also create a Prussian heritage for the new army.
Intranetusa
10-13-2007, 19:54
^ btw, the swastika is also a symbol for love and peace :) in Buddhism, and is commonly found in Buddhist festivals in PRC-China, ROC-Taiwan, Koreas, and Japan.
Ariovistus
10-14-2007, 00:01
To add an entirely constructive contribution to the cross-discussion...
I'm actually working on a petition to be sent to the German Ministry of Internal affairs, pleading for the internet being searched on any pages containing the symbol x - yeah, x, and blocking access to those pages from german IPs, or alternatively trying to get a trojan and that server and f...ing take it down, woohoo (yes, Mr. Schäuble knows what I am talking about).
I mean, really, I'm not someone who is nitpicking about such things, but look at the X. Actually nobody needs it, and when you take a look at it and imagine some tiny serifs at the edges of the crosses arms, or maybe a little rotation... you know what I mean.
I'm almost entirely sure that these symbol is or will be used as some sort of distinctive mark by neonazis, who think that they will be safe under the cover of the legal X, but ha, they didn't reckon on me. I tend to look suspiciously on people bearing that symbol on their shirts - those people seem to be innumerous, with words on their shirts like Sexmachine or XXL, displaying their ideology in such a shameless manner. I swear, next time I'll see someone like that, I won't hesitate to handle them as they deserve.
I could give uncountable more examples. I've been recently told about XXX pages in the internet that I should not visit - surely to avoid ideological manipulation - or a film named xXx, featuring some sort of Übermensch as protagonist.
So, ban the x, for showing those bastards we won't tolerate the open showing of their ideology.
*Sarcasm off*
Seriously, I am pretty happy that the swastika isn't included in EB. Yes, I know that this symbol has been used for many centuries without any negative meaning, but, you know, it does rise some ungood feeling when seeing it, especially for some idiots keep on using it - and I mean the ones that use it in the meaning it was used 1933-45. This is just not a topic that can be discussed all rational, but one has to keep an eye on the connotations that symbols bring along.
But regarding some of the postings made above, albeit if meant serious or not, it tempted me to just quarry out such a satirical post.
So move along people, there's nothing to see here.
Yours sincerely,
your jocular Ariovistus
Although, like others have said, is it not illegal in Germany? No matter which direction it is oriented?
The answer to that is not entirely clear. There was a guy who had a shop selling Anti-Fa (Anti-Fascist group, mostly punks) stuff like t-shirts with images like a broken swastika in a waste-basket. Or one in a red circle with a red bar across it (like road-signs for things that are forbidden).
He was charged by an over-ambitious state-attorney and sentenced by a low-level court for distributing forbidden nazi-propaganda.
But a higher-level court ruled last year, that yes: he was indeed showing a nazi-symbol. But no: he did not advertise nazi ideas but was trying to fight them.
What complicates the whole issue is, that neo-nazis used many stylized nazi symbols to prevent the ban of the "original" ones.
So now it is up to courts to decide from case to case whether the usage could be promoting nazi ideas or fighting it. That goes for t-shirts, posters, coffee-mugs etc.
In history books, movies about the time etc. it can be used. Unless you try to tell lies or to say that the nazis were actually cool. That would be "Volksverhetzung" and get you in front of a court quickly.
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