View Full Version : Sweboz feedback
(H/M)
Having played this faction extensively in 0.8 I have to say this update to 1x and the subtle changes to the game mechanics has made things enthralling. Currently suffering from a lack of sleep :).
I am having to conduct campaigns against rebel provinces, and they are no longer the walk over they were before. They are also counter invading!
The Sweboz roster presents its own issues in terms of the unit types you have to use.....but damn its fun to play with. The mercenaries available are also great and all the unit roster seems to 'fit'. In terms of battles, the balance seems to have been improved greatly, with my units holding their own in formation but being cut to ribbons at time when not. I am no stat monkey but nothing so far seems out of kilter. The traits are also working well.
I have reached 230BC and no CTDS as yet and no reforms have triggered.
My overriding feeling is this update has tied lots of loose ends into the final product and made the whole product more interesting, engaging and harder :).
Question, is there an optimum for the game settings?
Finally, the world history.....who ever put that together many, many thanks, I bet it was a bitch to edit.
Ariovistus
10-16-2007, 12:04
I totally agree with that. ~:thumb:
I'm at ~225BC now, and with the larger (and stronger) garrisons surrounding the players territory and the Defender of XY - Armies, it is way more challenging to play the Sweboz compared to previous versions. When I marched to the southeast, in order to overwhelm the Boii, I faced a full stack, filled with better units than those I had, defeated it, lay siege on the city, just to be attacked by another full stack, forcing me to pull back. Needless to say those enemy units had silver and/or golden chevrons... Those battles are as intense and thrilling as rarely before. Needless to say that good tactics are indespensable.
And I like the new unit roster as well. I am really looking forward to the Reforms! :beam:
Great to hear that HFox :2thumbsup:
Maybe you could post a pic of your empire?
Q: Which is the recommend difficult setting for Europa Barbarorum?
A: Europa Barbarorum is best played on Very Hard / Medium. The AI is aggressive (in particular the slave faction) but don’t get stat bonuses on the battlefield. If you want a real challenge try VH/VH but be aware enemy units on the battlefield are getting massive bonuses (afaik: +7 attack, +7 defence, and a huge morale boost), you could have your fullstack army is hacked to pieces by 5 units levies...
Recently we are considering about changing the recommended difficulty for the campaign map to hard - so the AI isn't that stubborn and more willing to diplomatic negotiations.
The Sweboz are by far my favourite faction. And I love all changes that have been made.
Thanks a lot for the response regarding the new defense for the Boii (and Lugians). It might suggest that we didn't overdo it. I was a little bit worried that it might be too tough. The main emphasis of the whole idea, (Kull's brilliant idea), was primarily to stop the AI-controlled factions in the region from unhistorical expansion, and these Übergenerals with their Über-armies was what it took to achieve that. I now just wish that a majority of the Sweboz players agrees with you. Time will tell, but I can say that your answers made my day:2thumbsup:
Edit: A third positive answer, while I was writing this, have to get faster ;-)
blitzkrieg80
10-16-2007, 16:50
me too ~:) thanks guys, it was a tremendous amount of work
what do you guys think of the Argaz (Anti-Noble) trait? My Sweboz game has a lot of Family members getting that, so maybe it's just me?
I think the Jugunthiz/Skirmishers are overpowered, because they cost more than the veteran spearmen, when they should be cheaper ~:confused: I dunno how I will resolve this- they do have one of the best formation densities though- and they're skirmishers
PS- I just love Chatti clubmen... so cool to see a couple take down Solduros /Neitos when they're supposed to be the best troops :grin: Panzerjaeger!
Congratulations Blitz to your work, although i can't find the topic regarding the discussed long flowing hair as i wanted to post something there.
I really miss the mentioned wolf and bear warriors (for the wolf warriors i strongly suggest swords b.t.w. for religious aspects - the bear warriors would do fine with clubs but i think you'll come up with something fine), but Urnamma said we could hope for a inclusion soon.
For your problem with the "Youths". The skirmishers should perhaps be naked - what do you think? As a sign of courage and the will to prove themselves it was not a celtic custom only to go naked into battle - and it would help with the "overpowered" problem.
One last and very minor thing:
Could you please change the portraits of the starting germanic faction members and rebels to something less celtic like (especially the typic moustaches and helmets)
Take care.
I think the Jugunthiz/Skirmishers are overpowered, because they cost more than the veteran spearmen, when they should be cheaper ~:confused: I dunno how I will resolve this- they do have one of the best formation densities though- and they're skirmishers
I have to admit I never use them in skirmish role. Mostly as light infantry or to plug gaps or sometimes just stand in the shieldwall. When I tried to use them in skirmish role they always get pummeled by the enemy skirmishers which always seem to have a range advantage. I do love them in a light infantry role tho.
blitzkrieg80
10-16-2007, 18:20
SaFe, I am always open to feedback (game-wise and ProtoGermanic), and particularly, I would definitely like to expand the hairstyles, which were not planned much beyond those specific with Suebic knots (where we argued to remove helmets- oh and the Chatti Youth ~;) i love the scraggily bastards) so if you have any advice or information to give us, start a new thread or whatever. one problem is logistics and the helmets, should they be braids hanging on the sides or what?
Good points on the portraits, I am not sure how those work but I will note it and take it to the right people... I am not quite sure why some of the portraits have neon red dots on the helms? Am I hallucinating?
there are entirely too few naked Germanics ~:) so I like that idea...
Wolfskin unit which i had Blank make already has an axe(chopping wood) and spear(hunting), to symbolize that they have weapons they use while living in the woods... sword is a good idea, but might lead to further argument against it, despite evidence on trajan's wall... it's a MERC only unit (since they choose to live outside society's bounds) which should be very rare throughout the game and only available in Sweboz forestland- need help defining that though, so far i think Swebolandam and that's it... I plan to name it Wargoz after the term that means wolf and outcast, since they choose to live separate from society, and it's actually the term for werewolf in ON as you probably know, which cannot be a coincidence with the widespread cognates of this alternate term for wolf... it could be said I am doing plain language too much for the Germanics, such as the Slaganz, Ridanz, Wargoz, but i tend to think it would be more natural than totally artificial stuff like I HAD to do for building names... always open to feedback on these things.
The Bearskin unit hasn't been done yet, and is planned on the 2-handed clubman that Urnamma is giving us an extra model slot for, because he wants a 2-handed clubman so much- so cool! the wolfskin used the old merjoz unit slot, fyi
Dezzerx, didn't you mention some problems with the battlemap and German units? they're running all over the place?
Ah yes, it only occurs when I siege an enemy town without a wall. If they then sally forth I can't move my men without them spreading all over the place.
I have not had problems in other battles so far.
You cannot set the starting portraits for family members.
Foot
SaFe, I am always open to feedback (game-wise and ProtoGermanic), and particularly, I would definitely like to expand the hairstyles, which were not planned much beyond those specific with Suebic knots (where we argued to remove helmets- oh and the Chatti Youth ~;) i love the scraggily bastards) so if you have any advice or information to give us, start a new thread or whatever. one problem is logistics and the helmets, should they be braids hanging on the sides or what?
Good points on the portraits, I am not sure how those work but I will note it and take it to the right people... I am not quite sure why some of the portraits have neon red dots on the helms? Am I hallucinating?
there are entirely too few naked Germanics ~:) so I like that idea...
Wolfskin unit which i had Blank make already has an axe(chopping wood) and spear(hunting), to symbolize that they have weapons they use while living in the woods... sword is a good idea, but might lead to further argument against it, despite evidence on trajan's wall... it's a MERC only unit (since they choose to live outside society's bounds) which should be very rare throughout the game and only available in Sweboz forestland- need help defining that though, so far i think Swebolandam and that's it... I plan to name it Wargoz after the term that means wolf and outcast, since they choose to live separate from society, and it's actually the term for werewolf in ON as you probably know, which cannot be a coincidence with the widespread cognates of this alternate term for wolf... it could be said I am doing plain language too much for the Germanics, such as the Slaganz, Ridanz, Wargoz, but i tend to think it would be more natural than totally artificial stuff like I HAD to do for building names... always open to feedback on these things.
The Bearskin unit hasn't been done yet, and is planned on the 2-handed clubman that Urnamma is giving us an extra model slot for, because he wants a 2-handed clubman so much- so cool! the wolfskin used the old merjoz unit slot
I admit the chatti hairstyle looks fantastic.
Well, especially for the "noble units" i would have preferred a special hairstyle and not the helmet.
Germanics were so eager and we could even say vain of their hairstyle that they want to show it regularly.
If you remember the "old" Gaizaharjoz unit with the long spear wielded two handed( i still have the .cas i think) the hair and beardstyle would fit for such a unit perfectly. Definatley no braids i think - this was rather celtic hairstyle.
Especially Speidel mention the custom with long flowing hair - i will give you the references as soon as i find the book.
About the Wargoz, i like the plain and simple name and the meaning of it. As suggestion you could include the word walþuz somehow with the meaning "forest wilderness" they lived in.
The MERC unit is wonderful idea with the background of the "out of community" living warriors, BUT i really suggest the sword instead of the axe. The spear for the reference for hunting aspect is very nice.(wild hunt for example)
Those warriors where no woodcutters or simple woodsmen, so there should definately be no big discussion about sword instead of the axe.
You have at least Trajan's column as reference and also the religious aspect of the "mythical" sword was strong in those wolf-warriors.
I really hope you prevail in this discussion: No axe please - this would make this unit rather a woodmen unit and not the unit it should be - a very special kind of mythical wild men that defintalely used swords and not just for ritual aspects.
The sword problem for germanics - you would go around this by using it purely as a merc unit. (they will be not too numerous on the battlefields of Europe while recruitableonly in Swebolandam) and this is a good choice and should solve the old germanic-swords problem.
The bearskin unit sounds promising:2thumbsup:
Glad you like the idea about the naked youths.
One unit the germanics roster really needs iin my opinion are the famous horse stabbers. It seems it is not possible to inlcude the "double" unit light cavalry+fast warriors on foot modelwise, but a kind of the well known germanic anti-cavalry unit, almost like the Youths but without the skirmish ability is needed.
What do you think?
Thank you for your response.
Watchman
10-17-2007, 19:07
As for that last part, I understand any light infantry mixing into a horse fight tended to have a rather major effect on the outcome; even crappy Medieval peasant levies, in the rare occasion they were at hand and willing to participate in a cavalry battle, achieved that.
That said, wouldn't the "horse-runner" unit likely end up looking rather like those Celtic shortswordmen ? Very lightly equipped for speed and agility, short swords are quite good enough for gutting horses in a swirling melee, small bucklers would be an easily transported and convenient form of useful extra defense, and a couple of javelins never hurt anyone's combat efficiency... Perhaps with a slight bonus fighting cavalry (+1 or so) to represent the specialised training ?
blitzkrieg80
10-17-2007, 19:28
there was a Horse-Runners unit and it was implemented and all that and later scrapped due to performance, AFAIK... before my time, but supposedly it just didn't work, they couldn't be sped up, so the Youth would be the best equivicant of that.
Ah, sad that the horse runners/stabbers could not be implemented in a satisfying way, but perhaps we could pick up watchman's idea...
Blitz, i would suggest to make the youths naked and perhaps get rid of the helmet for the bodyguards or the noble swordsmen. Some kind of spectacular hairstyle and beard like the old mentioned Gaizaharjoz hairstyle would really fit.
I'm eager to see the Wolf-Warriors and hopefully the choice to give them the woodcutters weapon will get the axe:laugh4: O.k. i'm no comedian so i will stop making bad jokes, but i hope the Wargoz will be something special.
As i currently have no time to test the game, have you increased the importance of the Thengaz?
I said it already but i like to repeat myself : I'm very grateful you have taken over the reins for the germanic faction:2thumbsup:
One question, have you read Speidels book about the germanics?
I think he clearly shows the facts of the germanic wolf and bear warriors.
Watchman
10-17-2007, 22:28
I can't vouch for others, but I'd point out I at least have a policy of seeing to it no soldier who traipses around without a helmet has too good an armour value in my EDU. Just doesn't make sense otherwise. And IIRC the 0.8x Ferulharjoz stats (and some of the 1.0 unit stats), the team is on the same lines - so keep that in mind before suggesting too much "style before substance" for the German heavies... :sweatdrop:
Mind you, "long free-flowing hair" oughta spill out from under the helmet nicely enough if it comes down to that (assuming they didn't do the clever trick of bunching it up under the helmet into a bonus cushioning layer that is). Have you read some of the descriptions of some Viking grandees ? Some of those guys had to put their beards and hair into some serious braids just to keep it from getting in the way in battle...
blitzkrieg80
10-18-2007, 00:04
our latest addition to the Germanic research team, Handsome Viking, has the book and others and done quite a bit of work compiling a huge amount of evidence for the specific purpose of a factual basis for the Wolf-skin... I plan to read Speidel's book, but currently have not, yet will hopefully scrounge some bucks together for an early Jule Tide present ~:) It really sounds like my favorite topic, so I am just glad a book out there exists which contains such an interesting collection of information... I get really tired of reading the same generic overview of the Germanic tribes, which tries too hard to not say anything inaccurate and thus says nothing at all <cough cough> "Todd" <cough> ~;)
I appreciate the kind words and on a separate note, your own work on the Germanic faction was quite helpful... some of the great stuff in EB is the result of our brilliant coders, like Bozoslivehere who got the ethnicities and noble system integrated ~:thumb:
Currently, the Bodyguard and Thegnoz need some stat tweaks, I personally have found their game performance very disappointing, and Swabian, one of our researchers, has discovered some stats like the spear-attack is less/equal to the Dugunthiz, which doesn't really sit right.
Great point by Watchman: the leather helmet currently adds a needed 2 points for armor, but despite that, I personally would rather see elaborate hairstyles, but then no one would have helmets either... some variation based on evidence seems best- too bad there isn't much evidence- Arg!
Also, I agree, practically speaking braids would just about be the only way to go, short of the unspeakable (mullet- sorry!)... and I really don't think anybody should have a mullet, even if the Avars are cool otherwise, no-no!
Perhaps when adjusting the stats for the bodyguards and the Thegnoz - the famous morale of those sworn warriors could come into play. Well, we all know that there are many times recorded those warriors choose to fight to the death instead of "loosing" their honour and flee.
The romans and other nations like the jewish kindom of Herodes for example doesn't had germanic elite bodyguards for nothing.
Better to loose the 2 AP on the head and give them better stats.
Also some germanic warriors were known for their ability with the throwing spear, so even perhaps this could for those chosen warriors help too.
I suggest to increase their stats and give them those hairstyle we talked about.
Personally i believe those were the most loyal overall (and best with their fighting abilities in germanic society) warriors during the time we could talk about - their record talk for themselves and this is currently not showing in their battlefield as you have noticed also.
About Speidel: Blitz, very, very interesting topics about warfare of the germanics, good stuff on wolf and bear warriors and even the "long hairs" - the elite of the tribe.
Perhaps i could get the interesting things scanned and get it somehow to you, if you want.
Take care.
blitzkrieg80
10-18-2007, 05:32
actually i just ordered that book (Speidel), but i do appreciate the offer... i just couldn't wait any longer ~;p
you know, Swabian had also discussed this, doing javelines instead of a close-combat spear, similar to the Neitos, and after observing some disappointing performance by the Bodyguard, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea... although it is a sure thing that all Germanic warriors would use the spear first for range, I think the Bodyguard might be more accurately portrayed in effective use of a sword. I don't know about giving any super-high morale for the Bodyguard, because they already perform well in that aspect and the Celtic elite have the same (I wouldn't think they'd be MORE exceptional than other warrior elites with similar honor codes), but I definitely think we can play with the stats.
I have experimented recently and I discovered that a simple 13 defense skill instead of 11 (which is actually what i first begged our stat guy to do and isn't that high compared to other units)- this really seems to make a good difference in peformance... the other thing is the increase of spear attack from 16 to 17 to match other Celtic elites... the mental /morale at 16 does well with these little tweaks, only time will tell if this is what gets implemented, but i'm having fun with it in my game ~;)
Side note: I think this thread should be kept alive, if we want to discuss the Sweboz, mostly because it has a brilliant topic ~:) short and sweet... the Underpowered thread was great and interesting, but I don't think it's necessarily the case or topic we're discussing even if we end up increasing stats from underpowered states
Well blitz, considering the germanics were praised during the ancient times as the most loyal warriors of western and middle europe (we talk about the absolute elite here) i think the bodyguards should have a edge over their celtic counterparts, but i think the team will make the right decission.
But i think it shouldn't be forgotten, that the romans hired not celtic or other nation's elite warriors but germanic ones for the personal protection of their leaders, so i think with this honor code, as you call it, they should have higher morale stats. As we can't display the "loyality" in EB it should perhaps be displayed in Morale.
I also suggest to give them the throwing spear as secondary weapon, after all the exceptional warriors of germanic tribes were known for their ability to throw their frame a very long distance...
Good idea here, i though of the Herthoz(as i called them during planning phase) those long months ago in this manner(throwing spear, long range, very high morale, and sword).
If you think there are too many sword units(still hoping you've got rid of the axe idea for the wolf-warriors), scrap the "normal germanic sword unit(not the cherusic one) Sorry, just can't find the name you've given them. Just a idea.
Take care.
blitzkrieg80
10-20-2007, 16:48
Well, you're not the only one thinking their morale (the Hearth Troop) should be higher, so it's always a possibility.
The Cherusci sword unit (Druhtiz [Troop] Heru-sk-u [Sword-ish/Cherusci-ish]) is supposed to help the fact that there were so many spearmen that all seemed the same, so making it a spearman again would leave the question back: why bother with spearman a, b, or c? currently the Chauci have better defense, and the Skanza spearman has better charge/tiny bit more morale.
With the exception of someone making a good case for keeping the hand-to-hand spears for the Hearth Troop, it really sounds like a good idea to give them a long-range throwing-spear (barbed possibly), Swabian, one of our researches has some great ideas for re-doing the art of the spear-tips and adding barbed spears: but i do not know how possible that sort of thing is in the RTW engine, and it might be something for EB2. It would be something like a shield-destroyer or even anti-personel / an opposite of the pilum AP.
Anyways, the Celtic Neitos really perform well, so it wouldn't be bad to have the Hearth Troop so, especially because there are so many spearmen in the Germanic Roster, no fear of not having anti-cavalry.
I really do like the idea of swords among the Wolfskins, especially with sword-cults and all: which reminds me, Tiw is vastly underrepresented usually considering that Wodan wasn't the all-father for quite a while, I wonder if there's any way to hit that home better for the players... oh well.
Anyways, I'll keep you interested and interesting fans updated on plans for the future Sweboz :)... hopefully I won't get sacrificed for revealing too much... but if so, I'll just come back wiser of the "secret" (runes) ~;)
btw, if you guys come up with anything extra for the temples descriptions, like god's aspects or patronage (as close to the EB timeline as possible), let me know... I feel like i might have missed some good stuff, as usual, Norse mythology is greatly rich, but the whole tales of some of those characters can't fit so well ~:)
on a side note- it seems I made a mistake i rearranged the grove to the 1st level temple before shrine, for logic, but the pictures now are funny so grove looks like a rock arrangement / altar of stone (harugaz- i only changed this word because it's borrowed from Celtic karrika: otherwise a very cool word) and the shrine looks like a grove.
Pharnakes
10-20-2007, 17:00
With the exception of someone making a good case for keeping the hand-to-hand spears for the Hearth Troop, it really sounds like a good idea to give them a long-range throwing-spear (barbed possibly), Swabian, one of our researches has some great ideas for re-doing the art of the spear-tips and adding barbed spears: but i do not know how possible that sort of thing is in the RTW engine, and it might be something for EB2. It would be something like a shield-destroyer or even anti-personel / an opposite of the pilum AP.
So far as I know there should be no problems what so ever with this, you can have lots (if not unlimited) of different missiles, as a placeholder may I recomend that you use the harpoons that the ciclian pirates threw in vannila?
blitzkrieg80
10-22-2007, 00:39
FYI for you guys, this is some of the proposed tweaks we're thinking for the Germanic Bodyguard and Mercenary Thanes:
type germanic infantry general ferulharjoz
dictionary germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz ; Herthaganautoz
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_gastiz, 20, 0, 1.18
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy, general_unit
formation 0.7, 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 12, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 17, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 9, 11, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental 17, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1924, 0, 80, 130, 1924
ownership germans, slave
It's conservative for balance, but it really makes a difference in my own game.
@blitz
Any news about the wolf unit(w. swords) and the bear unit(w. two-handed club)? I think w. Speidel's book(hopefully you have got it already) you could get some more information about this.
I think you have already decided to make the youths naked. Perhaps you should consider the helmets(the style of hair we have talked about) of the nobles, but i really like to see the wolf unit, hopefully in 1.1.
I have now come to play the Sweboz in EB 1.0 for a longer time (now around 225 BC) and I am really impressed: it is even more fun than in EB 0.8! :2thumbsup:
Some issues on the units, that I came across so far:
The Jugunthiz are no real skirmishers. That was allready mentioned. Adding to this the unit costs; no one would use a 356-unit to screen 308-units. I use them as local units and only raise them in Kimbroz; doing the same Dugunthiz in Sweboland and the Herunautoz in Rügen, I have local units for every tribe.
On the unit costs:
Dugunthiz, Druhtiz Skandzikus and Habukisku and Dugunthiz Hattisku are all local variations of the same unit. Nevertheless their costs do differ to up to nearly 1/3 (308 for the Habukisku to 396 for the Hattisku). Shouldn't they all cost about the same?
The Ridnaz seems to be way to expensive compared to similar cavalry units like the Leuce Epos, may be a price between 500 and 600 would be more reasonable?
On the stats:
Gaizoz, Jugunthiz, Skutjanz, Slaganz, Herusku, Jugunthiz Hattisku and Skaduganganz are all units that do not wear any kind of protection, but their armour value is ranging from 0 to 2. I think 2 should be reserved for units that are proper clothed, while those naked or half naked units should have 0 or 1 (I would perefer 1).
------------------------------------------------
Another thing that is only in-direct related to the Sweboz are the Naked Fanatics. I know they are a Holy Cow to the EB world, but I had to reduce their hit points from 2 to 1. Their stats are fine when the AI has one or two of them per army, but in my campaign the Arverni and Aedui had made them their infantry of line, with usualy 6 or 7 per stack. Gaeroas and Bataroas are the exception. Since the Sweboz don't have any units with AP-missle quality, like pila or slingers, winning battles under fair odds becomes a more and more impossibility.
That problem with the Gaesatae is pretty annoying thankfully M2TW will provide us with a much better way of limiting them so they will be the rare elites they should.
theorykid
11-02-2007, 14:52
I'm enjoying my Sweboz campaign as well, although note that the reforms are bugged, and will not trigger.
The fix by Blitzkrieg80 is located:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93820
the_handsome_viking
11-04-2007, 07:24
@blitz
Any news about the wolf unit(w. swords) and the bear unit(w. two-handed club)? I think w. Speidel's book(hopefully you have got it already) you could get some more information about this.
I think you have already decided to make the youths naked. Perhaps you should consider the helmets(the style of hair we have talked about) of the nobles, but i really like to see the wolf unit, hopefully in 1.1.
I've read the book, some people are a bit worried about the wolf unit, however those people are the same people that haven't read any of the evidence for their existance.
The club types of the club warriors need to represent more diversity in types, for example, there were clubs that had iron wrapped around them with little spikes on them, also some fire hardened clubs are well represented on Trajan's column. The bone clubs that seem to be really spread out in Sweboz now really need to be fixed I think, I've not seen much or any evidence for it, just that someone said that someone they know found something similar to that or something.
To be perfectly honest, I'm still not very happy with the Sweboz and I think there is a lot of work to be done.
blitzkrieg80
11-04-2007, 08:10
Just to be clear, I had nothing to do with the bone spike inserts or leather helms... not my baby / research, so I cannot add any helpful info...
Just to be clear, I had nothing to do with the bone spike inserts or leather helms... not my baby / research, so I cannot add any helpful info...
I'm confused....is this some sort of party you went to recently:dizzy2:
what do you guys think of the Argaz (Anti-Noble) trait? My Sweboz game has a lot of Family members getting that, so maybe it's just me?
I have two family members with this trait; I think it had been more when I last checked, so either some had lost it or.... well, living is dangerous on the Roman Front. The problem is, that I can't see how or why this is acquired. The two characters have also traits that call them "Victor"or "Shieldbiter" or other traits that are the exact opposite of what the "argaz" description tells about the character.
Another thing - is it new, can't recall it from previous 0.8 Sweboz games? - are the titles that can be aquired (Earl, First, King etc). A very fine thing for roleplaying, but unfortuantly very rare. May be the lowest level should pop up more frequent.
I've read the book, some people are a bit worried about the wolf unit, however those people are the same people that haven't read any of the evidence for their existance.
The club types of the club warriors need to represent more diversity in types, for example, there were clubs that had iron wrapped around them with little spikes on them, also some fire hardened clubs are well represented on Trajan's column. The bone clubs that seem to be really spread out in Sweboz now really need to be fixed I think, I've not seen much or any evidence for it, just that someone said that someone they know found something similar to that or something.
To be perfectly honest, I'm still not very happy with the Sweboz and I think there is a lot of work to be done.
By mentioning these people who are a bit worried i can't imagine what goes on behind closed doors in the team.
Do you still have to vote for something like including the Wargoz(Wolf-unit w. swords) and members who are experts for the other factions vote for or against it?
This seems to go in the wrong direction.
I think Blitz, Handsome viking and me are agreeing on this, but perhaps those who don't like to listen to Speidel, Goldworthy and others should read their books BEFORE voting.
I agree with blitz that there are too many helmets now for the germanic faction and their morale stats should be boosted instead of giving them more armour.
My suggestions - well a few, but if someone would like to hear all of them feel free to ask.
- the Youths(skirmishers) : make them naked and cheaper to recruit.
- the Ridanz(light cavalry): skip the helmet and make them better than their gallic counterparts(at least we should agree on this after all the conversation about Psycho and Frostwulf)
- the Bodyguards(Hearth Troop) : I'm not so sure why blitz won't go with my researched Herthoz(Herthaz) name, but this isn't so important. Skip the helmets(which look a little over the top although ii know where you have them from), give them good looking hair styles( not the typical suebian knot, but something like the old Gaizaharjoz model), of which they were so proud and make their morale much better, perhaps even their normal stats should be a little better. There is a reason, they were employed by romans, jews and many others as bodyguards for their nobles and elites.
Take care
russia almighty
11-04-2007, 22:29
Am I the only one who didn't think the Sweboz were underpowered in .81 ? Really they had a kickass body guard unit that was nearly unstoppable .
Am I the only one who didn't think the Sweboz were underpowered in .81 ? Really they had a kickass body guard unit that was nearly unstoppable.
no you aren't.
Am I the only one who didn't think the Sweboz were underpowered in .81 ?
Absolutly not.
I am now at war with the Romans and they keep bombarding me with Neitos, Triarii and Pedites Extraordinarii. I don't know what is so special with the Sweboz, but everytime when I think, "ouch, that will not do", my boys are victorious and I see white flaggs of the Romans all around. It is probably the high moral (even more boosted by all the family member that form the core of my battle line), because I hardly have units of mine routing and in every battle I have at least one unit that fought from 200 men down to under 50.
The people with which I always have severe problems playing the Sweboz are the Celts. When they manage to outnumber me I will very likely loose the battle. But under fair odds also here my vote goes to the Sweboz.
I think this thread is not for the question if the germanics are overpowered, just for the feedback of their units appearance or behaviour.
I think this thread is about Sweboz feedback in general. At least until your first post hair cuts and helmets were not the major topic.
Well, there is already a Sweboz underpowered thread, so we should not mix this topics.
any discussion concerning the Sweboz (comments / criticism) non-pertinent to Frostwulf's last argument(s) should be transferred to the Sweboz Feedback (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=93470) thread, if you please ~:) because the Sweboz aren't "underpowered" even if the Bodyguard or another unit needs some stat -tweaks... please respect this
Source (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1718842&postcount=293)
back to topic:
Here are some pics of my current Sweboz campaign in 214 BC. I am at war with Rome and allied with the Aedui.
I had destroyed the Arverni in an 10-years war. Picture #1 shows the last of the Arverni:
https://img119.imageshack.us/img119/841/arvernergi5.jpg
Here are my three armies:
https://img337.imageshack.us/img337/9475/armee1jz3.jpg
This is the King's army. I use the shadow walkers as "royal guard", i.e. they are flanking the King's bodyguard left and right. Usually they do not fight so much, but where ever this trio appears on the battlefield the fight is soon over.
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https://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8795/armee2mo0.jpg
This is the main army against the Romans with all the youngbloods who have to distinguish themsleves in battle before they can be elected for king in their hometribe or be appointed governor in one of the freshly conquered Marks. For roleplaying, I use the experince of their bodyguard and the command stars to define their rank in the Sweboz society.
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https://img461.imageshack.us/img461/6130/armee3an2.jpg
And here is the third one, a reserve force. Those mercs are there for roleplaying reasons too, because I consider myself allied with the Boii and the Baltics. That means in return that I won't attack their free settlements as long as this king is alive. All those Gaizoz were not raised as fighters but as settlers to re-populate the nearly empty Alpine settlements that I conquered from the Romans. As long as those territories are not secured, they fight as protection for the archers or other secondary roles.
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https://img128.imageshack.us/img128/3955/marseillete7.jpg
This can be a Sweboz garrison too. Masilla makes it possible. I had uploaded this pic to show the cumulative effect of a large Celitc tempel (+2 exp.), a Sweboz Field of Games (+1 Exp) and level IV government (+1 exp): these are all fresh recruits!
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And here are some more impressions from playing the Sweboz in EB 1.0, most of them allready published in other threads..
https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2364/todesbuchefa4.jpg
https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9238/frontvz0.jpg
https://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2022/naked2fy7.jpg
https://img101.imageshack.us/img101/3614/knowby9.jpg
The last one is one of my favorite shots from EB 1.0. Not because it is an exceptional picture, but because it looks like a battle between Makedonians and Greeks but shows a battle between Sweboz and Arverni.
Centurio Nixalsverdrus
11-06-2007, 23:33
Playing battles with the Sweboz is a lot different to playing a battle with Makedonia I must say. I had two full stacks cut to pieces so far by the hands of those damn Lugii.
In the moment I am planning to leave the woodcutter nation for a moment (I mean the Lugii not the Sweboz) to conquer Vindelicoppidos instead. I'm really fed up with this ever replenishing full stacks! Why do you kill them anyway when the dead don't stay where they belong? In their muddy pit? Such people we call Wiedergänger in Germany... This is stuff for a horror-movie man!
My next plan for the Lugii would be to send three spies to Carrodunum, so I can enter their territory and take the city in a rush! Otherwise the roaming full stack will come, plus the other near-full stack (remnants of my last encounter), and that'll be too much again for only one army. What do you think?
Also I have a little problems with my Druhtiz. When I put my troops into guard mode, in dense formation, they do not stay in their place when engaged with the enemy. Instead the behave like real barbarians and leave their place - not much but as if they would not be in guard mode you know. This is not actually what I would consider a shield-wall!
Please share your experiences with an experienced Strategos and wannabe-Druhtinaz. Those defeats are not good for the morale you know.
My next plan for the Lugii would be to send three spies to Carrodunum, so I can enter their territory and take the city in a rush! Otherwise the roaming full stack will come, plus the other near-full stack (remnants of my last encounter), and that'll be too much again for only one army. What do you think?
That would be my suggestion too. On what difficulty level are you playing? If it is not VH campaign level, you might be left alone as soon as you have taken the town. I am not sure if they will re-spawn after that (I think not, but have to check the script to be sure). You can use them afterwards for training purpose.
I have now four grey (no, not AS) stacks hanging around Eburonum (or is it Eburanum?), of which I had pushed two over the border myself and had not dared to follow them. I don't plan to go there in they near future. Ahead is the illumination of the Po Vally. Mediolanum, Segesta, Bononia and Patavium will make fine bonfires.
Also I have a little problems with my Druhtiz. When I put my troops into guard mode, in dense formation, they do not stay in their place when engaged with the enemy. Instead the behave like real barbarians and leave their place - not much but as if they would not be in guard mode you know. This is not actually what I would consider a shield-wall!
Yes, I have the same problem. Anytime I had placed them in guard mode they open their ranks in combat and swarm around. I don't do so anymore. They are a barbarian warband and no Greek hoplites.
---------------------------------------------
On general tatics for Sweboz, I would say that archers are your friends: hardly anyone north of the Alps is armoured, so Skutjanz can allready clear a path through the enemy line before the real fighting starts. For the same reason, the varios club fighters do not help you so much. The downside is of course that your men are unarmoured, too. That will always result in severe casualties. That is also the reason why Sweboz units have difficulties in acquiring experince.
Another thing is fighting in woods. Most of the Sweboz units have a combat bonus in woods, the Celts and Baltics not; at least not the units that I have hired from them. It is difficult to get this situation in battle if you are the attacker and the enemy is staying away from the woods, what he is usually doing. So, fighting defensive and placing the main line deep in some woods is a good tactic for the Sweboz.
Unfortuantly ambushes do not work in EB. I had laid so far three and all were normal battles.
A fine addition is the new phalanx (you do not need the reforms to get it!). I use it like a Tercio with a javelin throwing unit attached on each flank. The general with his shadow walkers is placed behind that formation. If the phalanx is not able to fight off the enemy, the general's bodyguard can step foreward to fight between the pikes while the shadow walkers sneak around the flanks. Of course, archers and phalanx are not best used in woods.
The best unit for the Sweboz is still the bodyguard. If possible, I have a complete assault wing of three or four bodyguards that is able to cut through (nearly) any enemy formation. It has his price, because only half of family members reach their 30th birthday and in this campaign I had not more than three or four that died in bed :skull:
Centurio Nixalsverdrus
11-07-2007, 18:27
Thank you for your advice. I play on H/M btw.
P.S.: So far I lost 5 spies in a vain attempt to enter Carrodunum. The next victims are already at hand...
burn_again
11-07-2007, 19:15
Spys didn't work for me, but I noticed that the scripted stacks wander off sometimes. So there is a good chance that you can attack the settlement in the first turn of the siege, before the scripted stacks arrive. You'll have to get rid of them later but they won't respawn. I conquered 3 settlements with this tactic ( and a bit of luck obviously), but it took many casualties and a lot of time.
Frostwulf
11-07-2007, 19:31
I've read the book, some people are a bit worried about the wolf unit, however those people are the same people that haven't read any of the evidence for their existance.
The club types of the club warriors need to represent more diversity in types, for example, there were clubs that had iron wrapped around them with little spikes on them, also some fire hardened clubs are well represented on Trajan's column. The bone clubs that seem to be really spread out in Sweboz now really need to be fixed I think, I've not seen much or any evidence for it, just that someone said that someone they know found something similar to that or something.
To be perfectly honest, I'm still not very happy with the Sweboz and I think there is a lot of work to be done.I agree with you on this, there is plenty of evidence including that from Goldsworthy.
Goldsworthy-"The Roman Army at War 100BC-AD200"-"If there were humbler warriors armed only with clubs, their complete absence from the archaeological record would not be surprising" pg.49
Goldsworthy's quote is in reference to a speech by Germanicus about the rear ranks having to make due with clubs.
I agree with blitz that there are too many helmets now for the germanic faction and their morale stats should be boosted instead of giving them more armour.I whole-heartedly agree with this.
the Ridanz(light cavalry): skip the helmet and make them better than their gallic counterparts(at least we should agree on this after all the conversation about Psycho and Frostwulf)
Goldsworthy-"The Roman Army at War 100BC-AD200"-"The only tactic that German cavalry seem to have employed was the headlong charge. These charges were often successful, despite the lack of saddles noted by Caesar. In the 50s BC the high reputation enjoyed by German warriors in Gaul in part explains the advantage in morale they enjoyed over Gallic horse. Lack of missile weapons and training, probably as well as their military philosophy, ensured that German cavalry made poor skirmishers or scouts." pg.48
Ariovistus horsemen did begin to throw missiles of some sort, but that is the only incident that I'm aware of German horse having missile weapons. I'm not sure that the Ridanz should exist.
Am I the only one who didn't think the Sweboz were underpowered in .81 ? Really they had a kickass body guard unit that was nearly unstoppable
no you aren't.
As far as .81 being underpowered when I first posted that thread my problems were as follows:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86612
It seems to me that the Sweboz units in general are a bit underpowered. Im only comparing the Sweboz units to the Roman units as I feel the Celtic units are way overpowered. I think that the Swaiut(tribal) units in general are well done with the exception of maybe a bump in morale. I also think that the Merjoz (elite axe) should have an increased attack value. I would like to see a few more elite units though none should surpass the stats of the hundaskapiz or the Gastiz. I think these are well done and should be the best Sweboz infantry units.
I also mentioned the need for heavy cavalry.
Would you care to compare the elites of the Celts to the Gastiz of the time of .81? Lets see what comes up:
Gastiz attack 12/13 defense 24 moral 16
carnute cingetos attack 12 defense 27 moral 18
Arjos attack 11/14 defense 26 moral 15
Rycalawre attack 12/13 defense 26 moral 16
Solduros attack 13/11 defense 26 moral 16
Uachtarach attack 13 defense 29 morale 18
This being pointed out there is no need to revisit this as we have moved on to 1.0.
I still think there should be a heavy cavlary similar to the
remi mairepos except they should be more powerful. This would be shown by the only historical accounts available which was during Caesars time the Remi and other Gauls serving Caesar were defeated by the Germans.
I made the mistake of doing some tests between Sweboz and Aedui, I really should have known better. One unit of Brihentin(51) verses the German heavy cavalry(51) had the Brihentin winning every time I was the Brihentin. When I played the German heavy cavalry I won 2 of 6 tries.
I also had the German Chatti club men(81) vs the Solduros(61), the Solduros won every time no matter which side I played. This was probably not a fair battle as the Solduros are an elite and I don't believe the Chatti are.
Blitz and team, you guys have done a wonderful job. I really like the names,troop types and etc. I would like to see some minor changes though as mentioned above. Thanks guys for taking the time to not only make the changes but to also address these issues on the forums.
Well Frostwulf,
about the Ridanz - the most satisfying part would be a non missile unit fighting alongside their companions - the horse-stabbers...but sadly this is not possible as i was told.
So i'm happy with the Ridanz, except their helmet and their stats in compasion to their gallic counterparts.
I hope blitz will do what he can for the Wargoz(Wolf-Warriors) and the Bear-Warriors, although Handsome Viking hinted there are still a few no-sayers about this. I really can't imagine the reason for this except stubborness to accept facts.
I still think which person ever came up with the mass production of helmets for the germanics should perhaps enlighten us. Not want to sound ironic, but i really never heard of so many head protections for the germanic tribes.
Morale and combat stat boost instead of unhistorical helmets for everyone!
Especially the Herthaganautoz(Bodyguards) - i really would like the mentioned special hairsytles for them -Ridanz (Germanic Light Cavalry), Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen)and Speutagardaz (Germanic Pikemen) should not have those helmets.
I agree with helmets for the Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) and the Marhathegnoz (Germanic Heavy Cavalry)though. The former were mercenaries in a noble way and would put on the best armour the could get and the later were very influenced by their celtic enemies.
blitzkrieg80
11-08-2007, 05:50
Thanks for the great comments, guys! I really appreciate it.
Urnamma would be the man to talk to on all accounts, to answer your inquiries on helmets and such. I personally have argued in the public fora that Germanic peoples seem to uniquely accept that head-protection does not save your head from a sword to the head, so it's not as precious as we might think with modern technology. A rich warrior would have everything, but the byrnie/mail-shirt was one of the best types of armor period, because it wasn't very hard to make or very expensive and it would be much more worthwhile along with the sword itself than a crappy helmet which is very much a surplus of metal. We've already argued about it and no one had a good argument other than "I think helmets are the best piece of armor ever" which if you actually fought with someone with a blade, you would not say ~:) "Oh no! woo- my head is ok- too bad my belly is leaking." Also, mail stores very well, folding up and such, thus why Beowulf took 30 with him away from the failed raid in the Netherlands ~;) high value and easily transportable trade is underrated with comparison to the over-indulgent resources of the Romans. Leather decays period, so short of a bog, I have never heard of evidence of leather armor period. It was very much probably used, imo, but I have yet to see an exhibit or scholarly article refering to it.
I don't like how weak the Germanic elite infantry is either- they even have a small number and they don't get any compensation: i've constantly tried to get their stats increased. The Ridanz sucks because of the overhand spear attack lethality factor which is depicted as it should according to history, supposedly.
SaFe, do you happen to know what the original basis was for the gaizaharjoz "lance warriors" when you were FC? I really can't find much info beyond some long spearheads and Trajan's column, maybe a few vague references to Germanic shieldwall/spear warfare (nothing specific for a unit) by Romans. Handsome Viking and I are seriously debating whether it should be taking a unit slot, although I would hate to lose such a unique unit, more cavalry might be better... the Ridanz is sharing its model so we can remove it but not claim the space.
nothing was wrong with the Herthaz except it means "Hearth" and although "of the Hearth or Herd" was used, it was a single development in Old Norse (whose body of work is rich and uniquely Germanic but very late in context), rather than having widespread cognates throughout the different languages developing into that specific meaning, and I felt that a little extra description (in the name) would be helpful for it's identity and it is in Beowulf- I admit I am a little partial to OE which is particularly Germanic in its preservation away from the Roman border near the Alps and has such an early and rich body of work compared to Gothic (just liturgy) and High German [which is pretty is also pretty late (near Middle German) in many instances] (although usually I only use OE for reverse-engineering if it has other cognates- this particular term is different in almost every dialect)... so really, because there were other things to change, I made them all cozy to my sensibility rather than Herthaz being "incorrect"
Thanks for the great comments, guys! I really appreciate it.
Urnamma would be the man to talk to on all accounts, to answer your inquiries on helmets and such. I personally have argued in the public fora that Germanic peoples seem to uniquely accept that head-protection does not save your head from a sword to the head, so it's not as precious as we might think with modern technology. A rich warrior would have everything, but the byrnie/mail-shirt was one of the best types of armor period, because it wasn't very hard to make or very expensive and it would be much more worthwhile along with the sword itself than a crappy helmet which is very much a surplus of metal. We've already argued about it and no one had a good argument other than "I think helmets are the best piece of armor ever" which if you actually fought with someone with a blade, you would not say ~:) "Oh no! woo- my head is ok- too bad my belly is leaking." Also, mail stores very well, folding up and such, thus why Beowulf took 30 with him away from the failed raid in the Netherlands ~;) high value and easily transportable trade is underrated with comparison to the over-indulgent resources of the Romans. Leather decays period, so short of a bog, I have never heard of evidence of leather armor period. It was very much probably used, imo, but I have yet to see an exhibit or scholarly article refering to it.
I don't like how weak the Germanic elite infantry is either- they even have a small number and they don't get any compensation: i've constantly tried to get their stats increased. The Ridanz sucks because of the overhand spear attack lethality factor which is depicted as it should according to history, supposedly.
SaFe, do you happen to know what the original basis was for the gaizaharjoz "lance warriors" when you were FC? I really can't find much info beyond some long spearheads and Trajan's column, maybe a few vague references to Germanic shieldwall/spear warfare (nothing specific for a unit) by Romans. Handsome Viking and I are seriously debating whether it should be taking a unit slot, although I would hate to lose such a unique unit, more cavalry might be better... the Ridanz is sharing its model so we can remove it but not claim the space.
nothing was wrong with the Herthaz except it means "Hearth" and although "of the Hearth or Herd" was used, it was a single development in Old Norse (whose body of work is rich and uniquely Germanic but very late in context), rather than having widespread cognates throughout the different languages developing into that specific meaning, and I felt that a little extra description (in the name) would be helpful for it's identity and it is in Beowulf- I admit I am a little partial to OE which is particularly Germanic in its preservation away from the Roman border near the Alps and has such an early and rich body of work compared to Gothic (just liturgy) and High German [which is pretty is also pretty late (near Middle German) in many instances] (although usually I only use OE for reverse-engineering if it has other cognates- this particular term is different in almost every dialect)... so really, because there were other things to change, I made them all cozy to my sensibility rather than Herthaz being "incorrect"
@blitz
Hailaz:2thumbsup:
Well, considering Urnamma, for all his other skills i never knew he was a expert about germanic head protection...
My question is, as you seem to be the official speaker of the new germanic faction - do you represent the germanics as FC or is it anybody else?
As you know i'm not up to date anymore...
If you are the new FC, what i really hope for your ability to discuss things i would like to hear your thoughts about this thread concerning the Wargoz. And have no fear about the mentioning of Berserkers:-)
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1739580&postcount=19
Concerning your questions about the overlong lances, they are mentioned by Speidel and also by numerous battle descriptions in the wars between Germanicus and Arminius (who i became known of Erminameraz as his germanic name - i think you came to another conclusion about the "translation" of his roman name).
The first battle is called Pontus Longi in latin and also especially the lances were used in the battle at the Angrivarii-wall. I know the last two battles are slightly out of timeframe (nearly 10 years) but i'm sure the use of these lances were not coreated "over night" but developed over many years through constant warfare vs. romans and helvetii.
Thanks for your explaination about the Hearth troops name.
Would be interesting to hear your thoughts about those helmets for the mentiones units and the current status on Wargoz, Bear-unit and the stat boost for the heavy germanic infantry as well as the bodyguards.
Take care
blitzkrieg80
11-09-2007, 18:30
Actually, Urnamma has recently stated that Paullus had found that info on the helms, so hopefully he can shed some light on that, if you're interested.
Shortly after I joined, I became the Sweboz FC since there was no alternative, but I quit as of now (a day or so ago). It's not appropriate for me to get into why here, but the reasons can probably be gleaned.
I will continue to work on the Proto-Germanic Voice Mod.
For the name Arminius, I went with Ermin-az similar to you but without an added second element because I don't really see any extra morphemes on Arminius beyond the word Ermen/Ermun-az for "Great" which is actually pretty interesting... isn't Latin -ius just a nominative/name ending? If not, please correct me.
Thanks for the info on the lances.
I look foward to discussing future topics with you guys, concerning Germanic or other barbarian peoples.
Very, very sad to hear!!!
I thought the Sweboz are on the right track now, but...:no:
Blitz
This is to let you and the team who look after the factions know my sweboz campaign is a blast and it isn't easy....but I want it that way.
The only tweak I can see is the lack of a heavy cavalry unit but that has been discussed.
Currently:
I am slowly grinding down Rome
Have destroyed the Averni and am at war with the Audi :)
Each time I win a battle against Rome I loose a large chunk of man power, this is how I expected it, to almost buy battles with casualties. I don't expect my line troops to stand toe to toe with principes and win. But hold whilst I use greater numbers to flank and slowly grind out the win.
The lance men are great...and coupled with the Alpine pikemen make a great wall to pin the Romans on.
So many thanks...I know people appear frustrated at times because the Mod isn't perfect......but it never will be.....it's close :)......and that's fine with me.
Sorry your stepping back.....I hope there's enough of a team to carry on tweaking and improving this 'beast'....for purely selfish reasons of course.
Blitz....thank you
@Paullus:
I really want to hear your sources for giving the germanic tribes all those leather helmets.
I talked to many people about this including a member of the roman-germanic museum in Cologne and there seems to be absolute no support for this helmet over-flow.
But if you have any sources for this, i really like to hear them and learn more about this.
As it seems Blitz is no longer FC what is a very sad loss for the team, i really like to hear from the man who makes choices about the current status of the Wargoz and Bear-Warriors units, which are historically proofed and the boosting of the stats for the germanic elite (which is necessary, concerning the status those germanic bodyguards had in the ancient world, i want to remember you again about the important role they had as bodyguards not only for germanic chieftains, but also roman emperors, jewish kings and other leaders of the known world in those days).
Frostwulf
11-12-2007, 07:32
Blitz I hate to see you go, I think you did a good job on what you were doing. Hopefully the work you were doing wont go to waste. I do appreciate the time and energy you spent both on the mod and the forums.
Recently we are considering about changing the recommended difficulty for the campaign map to hard - so the AI isn't that stubborn and more willing to diplomatic negotiations.
great to hear, just dont give them more money by the script, or else im going down tp M:laugh4: imo now they get it just right when played on H.
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