Which faction is best when encountering mongols

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Encountering the Mongol Golden Horde is a critical point of a Medieval II Total War Campaign. It might bring to the downfall of your faction or to the confirmation of your empire as one of the greatest powers ever to march on earth. In the poll below you may express your opinion on which faction is best when it comes to encountering the Mongols.

[RickooClan]

I think the most effective unit against mongol will be those pavise crossbowman from Milan. However, i dont think Milan will have much chance to fight with the mongol in the campaign map.

[Viking]

I found HRE reiters to be particularly good against horse archers, though they will suffer heavy casualties.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

However, i dont think Milan will have much chance to fight with the mongol in the campaign map.

I included all factions because one (if playing on easy or medium) might have already expanded a lot by then an might have to fight with the Mongols to defend his land.

Once, after many campaigns on "difficult" or "very difficult2, I played an easy-easy game with the Danish. By the time the Mongols came in, my southern boarders were at the Alps, my Western boarders were in Northern Spain, my Eastern boarders were next to Novgorod (in Russia):smash:

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

I, myself believe the Byzantines are the best in encountering the Mongols.

This might look strange to many members since the Byzantines have very "bad" units compared to other factions. However:

1. Vardariotai and other horse archers that are available to the Byzantines are the only units which resemble the terrible Mongol horse archers. If one masters these units they will be very efficient in the struggle against the golden horn.

2. When it comes to cities, the varangian guard is great in keeping hoards of cavalry from reaching center squares by blocking them and encircling them in narrow streets. These units can efficiently carry out this task only if helped by some infantry (militia might also do), since axes ar not so good against horsemen. If the horsemen's charge is stopped and the horsemen are fighting man-to-man the Varangian guard is deadly.

3. The Byzantines combine elements of Western and Eastern units and therefore if carefully mixed an army can access the advantages of both, including the Western powerful and solid dismounted knights (see Dismounted Lantinkon), the Northern Skillful archers (see Trebzond Archers) and the Eastern horse-archers (Vardariotai)

4. Finally, I believe that the key in defeating the Mongols is wealth. The Byzantines often become the richest faction on the map and therefore they have an advantage.

5. The Byzantines have a favorable Geographical position, with many mountains and passages where one can place a fort and bridges.

:rifle:

[Iavorios]

For me Milan is the ultimate faction for just about anything in the campaign. First of all it does not matter what nation you are playing for the wealth and territories after 70- 80 turns, even with Scotland or Denmark. The AI is an idiot so you can conquer the middle east with any faction. But the Venetians, Milanese and HRE have banks, therefore they could be the richest if you play them right. And i'm absolutely certain that in order to fight the mongols you need a lot of money. As for the army you need a lot of spears, archers and some heavy infantry and some cav to chase routers. Using vardariotes is not effective. Yes they are the best, but are expensive and the mongols are to many. If you want to fight single combat they are perfect but for the war out attrition they are not. And biz spearmen are wartless. The milanese, on the other hand have perfect italian spear militia, genoise crossbowmen and mounted dismounted broken lances in the cites. And the standard catholic army in fortress. So it is very simple to create hordes of cheap, but effective militia units. Just what you need. It aint pretty, but it works.

[ReiseReise]

I say Milan because you only need 2 units: Genoese XBows will annihilate enemy ranged units and can fight melee, while ISM take down Hvy Cav. By this time (rather earlier I hope) Milan controls all of Italy and therefore has a killer homeland economy.

[_Tristan_]

Having defeated them with the Hungarians, I voted for them.

Hungarian nobles can stand their own in a fight, Heavy cav is of a same quality of better than the Mongols', the infantry is a bit lacking in quality but the Cav easily makes up for it.

To me, Hungary is the almost ideal deal between western style armies (Heavy Cav) and eastern syle armies (Horse archers), thus making it my favorite in dealing with the Hordes.

[Jason X]

interesting that noone has chosen a stake-archer faction yet...

turks are good for a balanced army to take them on: jan. archer stakes funnelling the horde through narrow gaps, dis. sipahis holding them and the armour piercing qupulukus for taking out the heavy lancers/khan's guards. (see this post on twcenter (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1545257&postcount=7)for how sick this tactic can be).

egypt is the best faction for the attrition approach, and you also get the option of fielding full cav armies of mamluk archers/royal mamluks.

in my current rus campaign i haven't fought them (they went south and i'm turtling for the timurids) - but i would probably go all cav

i haven't tried fighting them with england for the full-on "outshoot them" approach (next campaign prob)

i voted turks cos that was the most effective approach for me - a word here for naffatuns as helpful in a mixed anti-mongol (or timurid) army

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Using vardariotes is not effective. Yes they are the best, but are expensive and the mongols are to many. If you want to fight single combat they are perfect but for the war out attrition they are not.

I believe Vardariotai are not so expensive, if compared to other cavalry units.

Recruitment Cost: 800
Upkeep: 250 :charge:

[Odin]

Having defeated them with the Hungarians, I voted for them.

Hungarian nobles can stand their own in a fight, Heavy cav is of a same quality of better than the Mongols', the infantry is a bit lacking in quality but the Cav easily makes up for it.

To me, Hungary is the almost ideal deal between western style armies (Heavy Cav) and eastern syle armies (Horse archers), thus making it my favorite in dealing with the Hordes.

Hungary is my favorite faction to play. I have defeated the mongols with hungary too, but I dont think its the best. Those hungarian nobles are a fine unit, but arent cheap, and the lack of heavy infantry is a pain as well.

You can out general the Mongols with the HA's of the hungarians, ive done it with a little help from the mongols expending some men on turkish walls. that said Milan is the best faction IMHO.

Hats off to another hungarian noble fan :medievalcheers:

[Ramses II CP]

There's little doubt in my mind that England is the best faction. Retinue Longbowmen are the only soldiers you really need. Their stakes completely neutralize the enemy melee cavalry, they will outnumber the Mongol horse archers and foot archers, and their melee stats are superior to those of all Mongol infantry. If you use an army of RLs to construct a stake fort with a protected line of retreat you can defeat any quantity of Mongols in field battles with only RL in the army. With respect to the rockets, you just have to ignore them and absorb a few losses or bring a little sacrificial cavalry to wipe them out.

The Turks also have excellent stake using archers, but their position as a nation makes them more vulnerable to the Mongols by denying them the time to prepare properly.

Those things being said, I found the Danish roster excellently capable of smashing the Mongols in the field as well, but a good general and mixed cavalry armies are required where they are not for the English.

To reiterate:

1. Stakes break the backbone of the Mongols, especially if you construct mini-forts out of them. No heavy cavalry and no dread from the General takes all the bite out of the Mongols. With no dread to worry about you don't even need an English general to lead the the longbowmen.

2. Having the preponderance of ranged units on your side allows you to force the enemy to come to you, and your stakes can ward your line of retreat to allow you to engage, bleed, and retreat over and over again against any number of Mongols, even if they stay in 'horde' mode.

3. Your Retinue Longbowmen have a shield, the advantage of position, numbers, and better attack stats than the Mongol infantry. If they stay at range you bleed them at many times the rate they bleed you, if they come to melee you massacre them.

In the end you might retreat thirty times, but the Mongols will leave a streak of blood and broken bodies across your realm until they are exterminated.

:egypt:

[anders]

I found HRE reiters to be particularly good against horse archers, though they will suffer heavy casualties.

i thought the reiters had lower range than the mongol HAs, how do you cope with that, doesnt the AI try to keep the HAs out of reiter range? Thought it would be hard to stay in range with lower speed and stamina than the HAs?

[anders]

I think Milan is probably the best, pavise crossbows and it. spear militia do a good job and are plentiful and relatively cheap.

For a different approach than standing your ground with infantry and pretty much not moving in battles, Poland is quite good at playing the mongols own "mobile cavalry" game with the streczly( who has a very nice AP ranged and [U]melee bonus), and very good heavy cav. havent tried, but guess much the same goes for hungary.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

You need something to neutralize their heavy cavalry and to counter their archers. This can be done with a combination of spearmen and bows (archers or crossbows) or archers with stakes. England has the best archers and its archers can plant those stakes. The danger with spearmen is that the will crumble before the dread of the Mongols. Stakes don't route and are excellent in killing Mongol heavy cavalry. I voted for England.

[Zenicetus]

I agree with Ramses II about English archers, if we're just comparing units and ignoring geographic position.

For strategic placement, I think Hungary is one of the best factions to take advantage of the Mongols, since you have the Turks and Byzantines as a buffer (assuming they don't sweep around to the north). You can let the Mongols bleed out on the Turks and/or the Byzantines, which softens up your neighbors for a Hungarian invasion.

So I'd say England on the battlefield, and Hungary on the strategic map.

[TevashSzat]

My vote goes to the turks simply because they will be well established in the region once the mongols come. Secondly, they get so much HAs that it is quite easy to get all cav armies which are more than a match for the more well balanced mongolian armies since you gain the mobility advantage and can easily mob the mongol cav early in the battle.

[Budwise]

Nothing but various forms of Longbowmen using stakes. Plus, Billmen do pull their own if used right.

[Skott]

In my Turk campaign (TLR Mod) I find a stack of Saiphis (sp?) works very well against the Mongols. You'll take alot of casualties but you'll also decimate a Mongol stack.

When it comes to western factions bowmen (like Longbow men) works better against Mongols than crossbow men. Crossbow men usually have better armor but they are slower to shoot and have shorter range. Also if your bowmen can plant stakes its especially helpful against mongol mounted troops.

I find mounted archers like Siaphis to be the best so far but not the only way to defeat Mongols. So I'd say Turks and England are the two best. I havent tried using Moors or Egyptians against Mongols yet. Camel Gunners might do some sweet damage to them although their ammo doesnt last long.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Plus, Billmen do pull their own if used right.


Why Billmen?

[imnothere]

by slapping the mongols with heavy fines for illegal entry and parking of horses, and then hitting them with heavy str 13-15 attack if they don't pay.

i do agree that it is tricky to use billmen. but parking behind the stakes makes it alot easier. plus with the two-hander bugs, i don't really use them by themselves and more of a suppliments with mercenary spears and levy spears. maybe 1 unit of bills to 4 units of spears.

plus any mongol infantry units that want to wade into combat while my other spears are engaged will get slap very hard with heavy bills.

welcome back Budwise.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

If that is the case with Billmen, you could also use viking axemen (powerful enough) by playing with the Danes. They are as good as billmen, not to say that they might also be better.

The problem here with the English is that if you created a "fort" with stakes from Longbowmen the Mongol Horse Archers with circle around the fort and shoot your soldiers down!

In my experience, I have not been able to avoid this.

Returning to what I said about the Danes, they are inferior to the the English since they lack stake-placing archers. However, in my Danish campaign on Difficult/Difficult, I stopped the Mongol Horde, thanks to a line of forts and cities resembling the Maginot Line (Second World War).

[I really need to find that screenshot!:wall: )

I had constructed a line of forts from Denmark to Venice and supported it with loads of Huscarls. (I believe this cannot be included as an example since by then I had achieved an incredible expansion and wealthy which I have never matched in any other campaign I played)

[Jason X]

The problem here with the English is that if you created a "fort" with stakes from Longbowmen the Mongol Horse Archers with circle around the fort and shoot your soldiers down!

In my experience, I have not been able to avoid this.


but the point is that longbowmen completely outrange mongol HA - massed foot archers are exactly the counter you need to HA heavy armies. the stakes just make them uber! the only issue is getting them to attack you and dealing with any artillery

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

but the point is that longbowmen completely outrange mongol HA - massed foot archers are exactly the counter you need to HA heavy armies. the stakes just make them uber! the only issue is getting them to attack you and dealing with any artillery

Aren't the HA difficult to hit if moving?

[RickooClan]

It will be no doubt the most effective way to kill HA is using shooting unit. And in any shooting duel pavise unit simply own as they can minimize the damage from range attack.

I cant really see why a longbow unit can do a better job than, lets say pavise crossbowman in terms of killing the mongols HA.

Other than the HA, the mongols army does not give much trouble, any factions with decent spearman and moderate infantry can get the job done. You dont really need the stakes to preventing the HA or calvary hitting you.

Also for the stakes....how about the mongols camping at a defensive position and waiting your army to come? As the mongol army consist a majority of shooters actually they tend to play defensively rather than offensively.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

For me it is important that one stack can do a lot of damage and stay alive. This means that the stack must be able to win a battle and be able to fight an other one during the same turn.

The usual battle against the Mongols is one of your stacks against two of theirs. This means that they have more than enough heavy cavalry to destroy a line of spearmen. Together with their high dreaded generals your infantry is likely to route. Genoese crossbow militia have a 3 morale and Italian spear militia have 5 morale. This means that when they get tired they will route. You can win but it also can go horribly wrong. Fighting two battles during the enemies turn with a militia army probably won't work.

English yeomen have also 5 morale but their stakes don't route. If you deploy your units at a defensive position and back the Yeomens up by some armored swords and some heavy cavalry you can win with relative low losses. Your army van fight an other day and still be successful.

250th post

[Ramses II CP]

Regarding the Mongols not attacking, if you have missile superiority (And you will with the English plan) the AI will come to you. The only cases where they will not are second stacks that suffer from the passive AI bug, but your arrows will not likely suffice for a second stack anyway, so withdraw and attack the reinforcement stack this time. Quite frankly in my experience the Mongols are never defensive unless they're suffering the passive reinforcement bug or they're across a bridge/ford with overwhelming ranged superiority.

With regard to hitting moving horse archers, your men have shields and the HA's movement reduces their own accuracy while running them the risk of smacking your stakes. If the HA are constantly moving, target the other enemy units or use one of your longbow contingents to bait them into a charge against the stakes. If all else fails, shoot out your arrows and withdraw to hope for better terrain in the next engagement. Ideally your position wouldn't allow the HA to take higher ground than you and if your line of retreat is staked out they can't get fully behind you. Remember, you can train more Longbowmen, the Mongols can't retrain anything, so all you have to do is keep them bleeding faster than you.

:egypt:

[Daveybaby]

Another vote here for the english.


Also for the stakes....how about the mongols camping at a defensive position and waiting your army to come? As the mongol army consist a majority of shooters actually they tend to play defensively rather than offensively
Yeah, but the mongols will very rarely do that in practice. And even if they do, you can usually goad them into attacking by sending a sacrificial unit in their direction.

English retinues with stakes are actually so effective against the mongols that its almost an exploit IMO. Pavise xbows might be more effective in a pure archery shoot out, but theyre going to be mincemeat when the mongol heavy cav come calling. The whole point of the english archers is that you have one unit type which simultaneously out-performs all of the mongol unit types.

FWIW: most <i>fun</I> i've had against the mongols is with the Russians. 50% Boyar sons to attack the heavy cav (javelins) and foot archers (melee), and 50% kazaks for HA vs HA dueling.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Yeah, but the mongols will very rarely do that in practice. And even if they do, you can usually goad them into attacking by sending a sacrificial unit in their direction.

Not true, most times after more or less 20 turns, they start settling down and being offensive. At that point you will attempt, to come to terms with them or take your lost territories back. If you chose the second you will have attack them!!! :charge:

[Henry707]

Hi All

I agree with Alexander - has to be the Byzantines - fantastic anti-mongol armies particularly with those guard archers & brilliant horse archers. You can defeat the Mongols simply by copying their armies.

Henry

[Daveybaby]

Well okay, but by the time theyve settled down youre generally not dealing with a dozen full stacks all in the same place any more. The biggest problem with the mongols is dealing with their initial incursion, and the best thing for that is to use archers & stakes.

[Ramses II CP]

Err, even if they settle down and you are technically the 'attacker' in the battle just sit behind your stakes and they'll still come running. The AI seems to look at missiles superiority first and foremost when deciding whether to wait or to attack. If you have superior missiles they will attack. If they somehow don't attack then retreat the battle and they will attack in the next one.

I suppose it's better than them sitting there waiting while you peck them apart, but it does make longbowmen a bit of an exploit against the Mongols. ;)

:egypt:

[Sentinel]

original quote by Alexander: The hellenic empire
The problem here with the English is that if you created a "fort" with stakes from Longbowmen the Mongol Horse Archers with circle around the fort and shoot your soldiers down!
In my experience, I have not been able to avoid this.




During deployment, you create a long line or shallow V of stakes as close to the moguls as possible. Then immediately after starting the battle have your archers run back to near the edge of the battle map where the rest of your force is. The Mongol usually can’t resist shooting at the backs of your retreating archers, so charge to attack. If you stop your archers retreat at the right place your can have the mongul HA’s doing a shooting circle with a line of stakes running right through the middle.
They often route before the English archers have fired their first shot.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

Hi All

has to be the Byzantines - fantastic anti-mongol armies particularly with those guard archers & brilliant horse archers. You can defeat the Mongols simply by copying their armies.

Henry

Happy to find another Byzantine supporter! :2thumbsup:

[Viking]

i thought the reiters had lower range than the mongol HAs, how do you cope with that, doesnt the AI try to keep the HAs out of reiter range? Thought it would be hard to stay in range with lower speed and stamina than the HAs?


I had no problems with coming within range; and the moral penalty that gunpowder inflicts made the mongol horse archers flee after some skirmish; not to mention that reiters got 20 as missile attack. Since reiters are fairly fast cavalry, you should be able to chase the mongol horse archers off the map.

[Fisherking]

I don’t often fight the Mongols but the Timurids are a different story. I seem to always find my self fighting elephants with those archers.

I have killed them off with the English, Polish, & Spanish. The most interesting was the Spanish and they seemed more effective than the other two. Pikes and crossbows did in the archers and javelin troops the elephants. I don‘t want to make it sound easy but in the end it did the trick. In the end I had to track them down as they were running for the hills. The Poles did a better job in my opinion than the English. Their stake archers are not nearly as potent in stats but the mounted units did most of the work anyway.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

I have killed them off with the English, Polish, & Spanish.

How did the Timurids get to Spain?:jawdrop:

[Monsieur Alphonse]

How did the Timurids get to Spain?:jawdrop:


I think Spain got to the Timurids. :laugh4:

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

I think Spain got to the Timurids. :laugh4:


:2thumbsup:

[imnothere]

hmm, bonus is that once laid, stakes never go away. while it is true that units of spearmen could do the same job, the fact is that once they got wipe out, your prized archers look suddenly very lonely.

but yeah, while it is true that HA *should* be marching past your stake fort and continue pumping arrows while the rest of the army attack, the problem is that AI doesn't and often end up in a shooting duel - something that your 60+ archers v 40 HA can win by range, speed and number of attacks. of course, the idea is to spread the units so that they don't cluster altogether. so the "fort will just be mere "U" shape emplacement. i also use mounted units to "distract" the Mongol units that are not doing the "dread-mongol-shuffle" to lure them away somewhere.

also. with the spear-walling and schiltroning(?) units acting as buffer, the poor sods then to suffer more casualties than in their natural formation. that is why stakes can buy me time until i can schiltron it in a fight.

i have problem with using the spearwall units in middle-east, so i don't even bother anymore. seems like every lads with a bow just loves to pick on them.

ya, i guess there is more than one way to skin cats. but the truth is...i am in love with the longbowmen...

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

An interesting thing has happened in the poll. Nobody voted for the Muslim North African factions:

- Egypt :egypt:
- The Moors :charge:

they have formidable units, so what motivates this total lack of trust in them?

[Jason X]

egypt is good against the mongols as you have the option of going all HA against them, or spamming militia armies or fielding a balanced army (with extra naffatuns). turks shaded it for me because of stake archers (egypt has no elite archer).

against the timurids, you need a jav cav faction, so i prefer egypt to turks in this case.

i haven't played them, but poland looks good against the hordes - polish nobles for taking out elephants/heavy cav, plus a stake archer!

[TevashSzat]

against the timurids, you need a jav cav faction, so i prefer egypt to turks in this case.

This is very important, projectile missles have an innate chance of missing even if it could hit an unit which means that your arrows may not always be taking off a hitpoint from the Timurid elephants while javelins always take out a hitpoint and hence seems to work better against them

[Abokasee]

I say hungary, having defeated mongols AND timurids with them why?

A great mixture of the Cavalry archers of eastern europe, and the heavies of western europe, they are only weak in early game, were they must rush to survive, in cities, they can easily defend with good quality archers and heavy infantry, plus if things get desperate, you can always build loads pathetic peasent troops and throw them at the enemy :beam:

[Atreides]

Happy to find another Byzantine supporter! :2thumbsup:

I agree on this one.

Imo, the tactics of the English should be regard as an exploit of the AL. Any human player would defeat English archers. Any human player facing the Byzzies would suffer or more likely will face defeat.

[Daveybaby]

Abokasee, please change your signature, it's making me hungry.

[Alexander: The hellenic empire]

I agree on this one.

Imo, the tactics of the English should be regard as an exploit of the AL. Any human player would defeat English archers. Any human player facing the Byzzies would suffer or more likely will face defeat.

This is very true. defeating such an army is easy for a human but tricks the AI. Have we conducted our whole analysis incorrectly??

:smash:

[Viking]

Abokasee, please change your signature, it's making me hungry.

:gah:


~D

[phonicsmonkey]

I voted for Venice.

(I acknowledge the longbow-stake thing and I'd imagine it is very effective, but for me it would take the fun out of it a little...)

I fought them in field battles, drawing them into shootouts with my pavises and avoiding the charge by giving ground whenever they used the "about to charge" body language and dissuading them with a couple of catapult rounds from either end of the line.

eventually the charge comes, which you should take with a line of upgraded spearmen on guard mode, with carrocio standard and a high chivalry general behind to offset the high-dread effect of their generals

then you can envelop the khan with spears from the sides and cavalry from behind, and make sure you take him out

usually there will be another army waiting atop a nearby hill, but by now you'll be out of bolts and it's time to withdraw and fight another day with replenished ammo.

highly effective attritional warfare, so long as you think like the mongol and don't provoke the charge until they are whittled down by xbow fire...

Milan are probably equivalently good at this, but I choose Venice because they are marginally closer which gives you a headstart at getting over there and building some infrastructure before they arrive.

timurids are a different matter altogether - pavises are next to useless against elephants and I resorted to trapping them with my patented elephant fence...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=88889

[Gray Beard]

Any faction can beat the Mongols if you are ready for them.

By the time the arrive I am normally sitting on an Empire that stretches from Zagreb, Ragusa and Sophia on the west, includes all of Asia Minor and then wraps around the Eastern Mediterranean coast to Alexandra and Cairo. There are no Turks, Egyptians or Venetians and the Pope is seriously thinking about learning Greek.

Here is my idea of an Anti-Mongol army

Infantry Army
1 X General

3 X Heavy Infantry - Byzantine Infantry/Dismounted Latinkons/Varangians

8 X Spear units - Normally spear militia with armour upgrades (I really wish that Byzantines could build an armored Spearman)

8 X Archer Units preferably Trebizond Archers or Guard archers but Archer Militia are OK in a pinch

This is a fairly inexpensive army to raise and maintain. Its only weakness is that it doesn't attack well but in this case it is defending or waiting to be attacked. It is also a good siege army.

Cavalry Army
1 X General
2 X Latinkons/Kataphraxtoi
3 X Spear Units
3 X Elite Archers
3 X Heavy Infantry
4 X Horse Archers
4 X Vards

The Infantry army works better especially if you can make the Mongols come to you and catch trying to cross a river or bridge. This one works better if you are actually trying to a attack a Mongol stack


As a side note and dig at the Anglophiles:

I would put the Byzantine Guard Archers up against a group of longbow men any day. The Guard Archers have the same range and amour piercing arrows plus better amour good melee stats. They are one of the few archer units that you can have shoot until they run out of arrows and then use as competent melee troops

[S.Selim_1]

i think all factions are capable of beating the mongols except for the turks beacause of their geographical location....the mongols just come right against the turks the same trail the mongols had followed historically(the seljuk empire lasted coz of the mongols attacks). and the next hardest faction to stop the mongols are the egyptians but any way..the turks have to hurry up advancing their castles and cities before the mongols arrive which is pretty challenging. any other faction will find the mongols pretty easy havin the time advancing and recruiting good units to hold the mongols

[Viking]

With the Turks it is better to go Jannisarrys and saracen infantry and let the Mongols dry up outside your walls, rather than facing them in the open with horse archers, IMO.

[Privateerkev]

Have to agree with the English as being the best anti-Mongol faction. I've absorbed a whole Mongol wave on one of their turns because they tried to force a river crossing guarded by one of my English stacks. I had to fight 8 or 9 defensive battles that turn at the one spot but I was able to soak up the whole wave.

Stakes are awesome for causing "horsey-kabobs". :beam:

[TheLastPrivate]

If Kingdoms units are available (either Crusades campaign or mods) Egyptian Kasshakis and Sybiaan Al-kayys can fight the mongol cavalry toe-to-toe and come out victorious provided that they are placed with a capable general with some +morale and chivalry.

I love fully mounted armies too much.

[Grog]

I voted Byzantine in the end, simply because I prefer fighting the mongols with all horse armies.

The English are great until you have to leave your stake fort/wall and hunt the mongols down. Byzantine horse can attack the mongols anytime anyplace anywhere and win with great efficiency.

Also, the mobility of Byzantine all-horse armies on campaign map is far superior for hunting/splitting the mongol horde than clunking about with swords and bows, especially if you like to encircle and destroy the horde before they settle down.

:charge:

[anders]

anybody using moorish camel gunners against the mongols?

how does that work? I imagine the "fear of camels" would hold the charging mongols at bay and the long range jezhails would reap a grim harvest.

Anyone have any experience fighting the mongols with the danes? I`m getting my heavy inf. armies shot to pieces by the horse archers, clerics and heavy inf kill the lancers and khans pretty good, but i still lose to the HAs.

[PseRamesses]

Byzantines.

Most has been said why. The Byz semi manouverable and semi stationary troop line up just suit my personality. Turks came second.

[Slug For A Butt]

I've got to go with the English and their RL and stakes. Add a few cav and garnish with a touch of heavy infantry, season with just a little exp and serve with a high ground defense.
I've always found it quite appetising.

[Askthepizzaguy]

England.

First of all, think defense. The Mongols will never, ever touch your main holdings (barring a migration game). You can effectively wage war on them forever. Maintain good relations with the pope, and you can retake any catholic city with unlimited legions of crusader units.

Now, think offense. Heavy mounted knights attacking the wings, stake longbowmen in the middle, and heavy infantry Pikemen and so on are BRUTAL versus the Mongols.

Horse archers? You can pin them against the side of the map with any light mercenary mounts and melee them to death with your slow mounted knights. Also, you can keep them away from your main infantry force by spreading out your infantry formations and firing endless arrows at their horse archers with your superior English bows. They have better range. If they do the spread/circle formation with their horse archers, you can ram them with your mounts and melee them to death.

You will suffer some casualties. However, you can completely annihilate their armies, man to man, without reinforcements. Just keep a high dread or chivalry general and GUARD HIM with your life, surrounded by your heavy pikes.

Alternate plan: Endless crusaders. Send your feeble-minded but brave faithful in swarms, armed with whatever may be their weapon, and take them down with a greater horde. Out-horde the horde.

England simply cannot lose to the Mongols. There is zero chance they will advance all the way to your capital, and other nations will be at war with them. Send ships filled with stacks and surround their cities, starve them to death, surround and pound them as the spread their initial stacks into rival territories. They are strong at the beginning, but like in chess, every move creates some kind of weakness.

When they are spread out and vulnerable, you can surround them on the campaign map. Assassins and spies can be of use, but with such overwhelming odds in your favor... you cannot lose.

If you want my opinion on Eastern half of the board factions, go with the Italian factions. Nothing says "I love you" like endless stacks of pavise crossbowmen and cheapo italian militia spear infantry.

Poke and shoot! Poke and shoot! Poke and shoot!

Die! Die! Die!

:elephant: Now dance, pink elephant, 'tis your day of triumph!

[phonicsmonkey]

pizzaguy is back! run for the hills!

[Slug For A Butt]

Glad to see you back Pizzaguy. I'll have a deep pan pepperoni, peppers, garlic mushroom and pineapple with a few jalapenos sprinkled on top please. How long till you can deliver?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Hey Pizza nice to see you again. Apart from the fact that England doesn't have pikes you are absolutely correct.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Glad to see you back Pizzaguy. I'll have a deep pan pepperoni, peppers, garlic mushroom and pineapple with a few jalapenos sprinkled on top please. How long till you can deliver?

Well let's see... there's no extra charge for the floor dust on the crust, the week-old pepperoni from underneath the oven jammed between the good ones, the saliva on the green peppers to give it an extra glistening shine, the moldy mushroom from underneath the dish sink, the pineapples soaked in jalapeno juice, and the jalapenos soaked in mop water.

I took the liberty of adding just a touch of dandruff to the parmesean cheese, and that juicy pool in the middle of the pizza that makes it look so delicious is actually something I can't describe in public, but you can use your imagination to figure out.

I seem to recall there was no tip last time, so I'm sure you wouldn't mind if I left in in the oven while I went on a delivery, and then put it on the bottom of my next two deliveries, right? I promise not to shake the box or drop it on your lawn... repeatedly.

Those aren't bugs, those are red peppers. Crunchy, aren't they?

Should be about 2 and a half hours for delivery. Oh, by the way, we now charge 5 dollars for each delivery. Have a nice night.

:knight:

Oh yes, and uh... Medieval 2 Total war rules.

[Slug For A Butt]

Great Pizzaguy, just the way I remember them. I'll take two.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hey Pizza nice to see you again. Apart from the fact that England doesn't have pikes you are absolutely correct.

Pikes? No pikes?

You can't get pikes?

Seriously?

Maybe I remember incorrectly. Been a while since I've played England. Got the Danes rocking at the moment.

Oh well. Any uber-spears work in place of pikes for the most part. And I'm almost certain you can get pikes.

But then again, haven't played in a while.

[Ramses II CP]

Pfft, what would you want with pikes when you can have stakes? Stakes don't require any fiddly clicking nonsense just to make them work, and when the men behind them draw their swords... Allah help the Mongols.

:egypt:

[Slug For A Butt]

Pfft, what would you want with pikes when you can have stakes? Stakes don't require any fiddly clicking nonsense just to make them work, and when the men behind them draw their swords... Allah help the Mongols.

:egypt:

Quite right, and those RL with decent melee stats and AP do a fine job on the Mongols that get through the stakes.

[Fisherking]

The Mongols are not that tough except they come in mass. I like the Polish best when fighting these guys.

In cities or castles I use Lithuanian Archers, Spear, & Axmen or Dks on the walls with an artillery piece or two.

On the open ground I leave the infantry at home and go for better mobility with all horse archers. I use one Polish Nobles for each two Shooters. The stack with or without a general can easily handle a full stack of Mongols.

If you plan on fighting at the bridges or fords then you can take along a couple of stake archers just to thin out their ranks but it may impede you if you are chasing routers.

I tend to place the Pns behind the shooters and save them for generals or Mongol lancers. I will divide the Pns into two groups of three and the shooters likewise in groups of three or four. During deployment I put all on wide spacing because you are obviously facing archers.

Array your two wings into rough Ls and wait for the Mongols to send up their first wave of horse archers. The crossfire with 6 units firing will decimate them before the foot even get in range. The Pns handle any pursuers and are a match for most any units in single combat. Once they are out of javelins they can chase the foot archers.

I destroyed the Mongol invasion each wave at a time in this manor…good luck and happy hunting.

As to the English, they are good but take a lot more advanced units to do the job and they require a lot more work to get the job done...:beam:

[Ramses II CP]

Bah, the English require no work at all FK. Set your stakes, turn off skirmish, and watch your longbowmen slaughter the Mongols. You don't even need a general or any different unit types. It's kinda boring actually.

:egypt:

[Fisherking]

Well, I don’t think that you are talking about just Longbowmen. It is Yeoman Archers at the very least and more likely longbow retainers. You can not run down the routers and a sizeable amount of the enemy escape to fight again. Once your men are out of ammunition they are of questionable value while mine can still stand up to the Mongol units left on the field.

The casualty rates are roughly even between the two styles however, but mine can face them in open field where yours do their best at the fords.

Both work, and work well but mine are also good against the Mongols big brothers with the addition of a couple more Polish Nobles where you need a different mix with cannon that are going to slow your force even more.

I like the English too but you know that the English have to go searching for the Mongols…they come to you if you are on the Russian Steppes…

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, I don’t think that you are talking about just Longbowmen. It is Yeoman Archers at the very least and more likely longbow retainers. You can not run down the routers and a sizeable amount of the enemy escape to fight again. Once your men are out of ammunition they are of questionable value while mine can still stand up to the Mongol units left on the field.

The casualty rates are roughly even between the two styles however, but mine can face them in open field where yours do their best at the fords.

Both work, and work well but mine are also good against the Mongols big brothers with the addition of a couple more Polish Nobles where you need a different mix with cannon that are going to slow your force even more.

I like the English too but you know that the English have to go searching for the Mongols…they come to you if you are on the Russian Steppes…

Not to interject, but I've expanded with England as far as Baghdad (with everything in between conquered, both north and south) by the time the Mongols arrive, so yes, indeed, you don't need to wait for them to come to you if you're a mad, mad, mad (dangerously mad) blitzer like me.

[Bravedude]

I personally love attacking both Mongols and Timurids as the Rus. I'll usually take over all of eastern Russia about to invade Poland and HUngary when the Mongols come. I prepare myself for them by making stacks of all fully upgraded Dvor. I can pretty much wipe out the Mongols armies and use the remaining Dvors to resupply my weakened armies in Hungary and Poland 30 turns and three less competitors.

[Yoyoma1910]

I say the French.

Maybe you disagree, but that's because you have never faced a wheel of French Munster Cheese, the supper secret weapon of the Franks.

No man, nation, nor dog, save those who have spent the entirety of their lives building an immunity to this substance, can come face to face with the overwhelming odor (similar to a well fermented sheep's bottom) much less flavor (more similar to a well fermented sheep's bottom) and survive.:dizzy2:

[Cheetah]

I say the French.
No man, nation, nor dog, save those who have spent the entirety of their lives building an immunity to this substance, can come face to face with the overwhelming odor (similar to a well fermented sheep's bottom) much less flavor (more similar to a well fermented sheep's bottom) and survive.:dizzy2:

ROFL! :laugh4:

Actually the French can be quite good: aventuriers, pikes, noble knights and horse archers even!!! Good combo.

[imnothere]

yeah, french are actually aint bad in LATE period, even if alot more expensive... - a decent French army against Mongols will easily set you back over 10000 florins even without the upgrades.

Armoured sergeants (not sure about pikemen, i am against pikewall units working under the hot middle-east sun where they can get skin-cancer and catch arrows) in front, Scots Guards (longbow) at the back. and one of the heavily-armoured units - Dismounted French Knights for example, to cover the broken line or to flank. Aventurier(maybe) are ok too. Knights are ok, although i tend to forgo the Noble Knights in favour of Templars and Hospitallers. Strong artillery units - basilisk/Culverin/Serpentine will force the Mongols to close the range with you. Unless supported by other mounted units, I will forgo those expensive Mounted Archers as well.

I thought that the French uses the trebuchets to throw their dirty laundry at the enemies?

[Ramses II CP]

Err, sorry, missed your reply there FK. Longbowmen don't need a ford or even a hill to bleed the Mongols. You can build forts out of your stakes that protect your line of retreat and neutralize the Mongol cavalry completely. Obviously you have more power at range, so you cause casualties much faster than you take them, and since there's no need for a general to collect bad traits you can retreat any time. My single stack army can face any number of Mongol stacks and inflict heavy losses before retreating to do it again.

I'd fight the Mongols on any terrain and take longbows with stakes over any other force every single time. The only way I don't massacre them is if they get the reinforcements bug and won't attack.

...but it's not as much fun as taking a HA heavy force against them, I'll grant you that. :beam:

:egypt:

[Fisherking]

@ Ramses II

Any idea what your casualty figures are like when you do that.

I would not take on multiple stacks with mine. When it is time to retreat I often find that they want to exit in some weird place that puts them at risk…

I know longbows have lots going for them…at least Yeoman Archers and better vs. Mongols. I just wish they could take on the elephants.

Mine can stand up to the big Ts also but the casualties are about 30 to 40 % when they do.

[Ramses II CP]

Casualties against a Mongol stack are usually light, the Mongols are unwilling to just duel their HA against your longbows, so the HA often wander around doing very little damage while their regular archers just get torn up. The Mongol infantry is extremely inferior to Retinue longbowmen at close range, so if they attack through the stakes they get massacred.

Yeah, the Byzantines and Turks are much better against the Timurids. An all longbow stack against the Timurids is going to get pounded about 80% of the time because you just can't get both companies of elephants to rout, even if you're shooting them exclusively.

The biggest disadvantage of the longbow strategy is that I can't chase. Even if the Mongols rout the rest of their army gets away, so I have to fight them again, so you end up fighting more battles (And 'losing' a good number of them by retreating even if you inflict 10-20x the casualties you take). Mutliple Mongol stacks don't significantly increase relative casualties because of the passive AI bug and the fact that the Mongol stacks stay so close together; i.e. where you normally had 5-8 companies of enemy archers they now pack 10-16 into the same space and just soak up more arrows.

People who say it's an exploit are pretty close to the truth, it's AI abuse, no question, but I think if you put a player in control of the Mongol armies (including their experience bonus) they'd be, stack for stack, almost unstoppable.

:egypt: