Legions

[mrdun]

When playing as the Romans what units do you use to make up a legion? Early Middle and Late. I believe that one legion is half a stack, I think that has been debated somewhere, If I am wrong please tell. OK, your legions please.

[econ21]

Pre-Marian legion:

1 triari, 2 hastati, 2 principes, 2 velites, 1 Roman archer, 1 equites, 1 general
+ up to half stack of mercs to represent allies

Post-Marian legion:

1 first cohort; 9 cohorts, 1 general + up to half stack of auxiliaries

[mrdun]

The mercs are a really good idea.

[Charge]

Hmm, don't know is it a good idea, but..here's my uber-war-machine from one julii campaign:
1 many-star-general, 4 urban cohorts, 6 late legionary cohorts, 4 archer auxillia, 1 skirmishers, 1 dogs, 3 praetorian cavalry, 1 auxillia cavalry...:D
all except praetorians had 4 exp from start.

If seriously, my earlier army usually has :
2 generals, 6 hastati, 2 principes, 2 triarii, 2 archers, 2 velites, 2 equites, 2 dogs...

late army:
1 general, 1 praetorian(urban) cohort, 8 late cohorts, 4 archers, 1 skirmisher, 1 praetorian cavalry, 2 legion. cavalry, 1 cavalry aux., 1 dog...

always train whole stack, and fight at once as many enemies as possible.

[mrdun]

Nice. My half stacks are normally:

1 general
5 Hastati
2 Velites
2 Equites:yes:

[Celt Centurion]

It really depends upon what is available. I'm rarely able to get much triarii before the Marius event so I usually have about 4 hastati on the front line backed up by 6 principes on two lines behind them. A couple of velites go out from the middle of the formation to engage once the battle starts with a few Roman archers behind. Some equites on the far edge of the field, hopefully to chase away the enemies routing.

Post Marius, I prefer the legionary cohort rather than the early cohort. I like to use about 8-10 of them with four units of archers. Three units of Roman cavalry on each flank provide good cover and to cut down those running away. This also provides me with a full or near full stack.

When going against Egypt, Urban Cohorts are good to have around but they are much more expensive. I find the Praetorian cohorts to not be as tough as they think they are as I've had legionary cohorts kick their butts.

I do not care too much for the other types of cavalry available to the Romans, but if faced with a really tough opponent, I'll bring in Praetorian Cavalry much like the Urban Cohorts.

I used to keep old units and retrain them to full manning to have a sort of continuity, but now I like to discharge the "obsolete" in favor of the stronger, and example being, I will recruit a legionary cohort and discharge an early legionary cohort one for one until I have the army that I want. The drawback to this is that sometimes I'll take a city where I cannot retrain them. Here, I'll drag and drop to bring most to full strength and build the Army Barracks when it becomes available to retrain the rest. If I can get them to a place they can be retrained in one move, I send them that way exchanging one for one.

As said before, I upgrade every man's armor (except peasants) and when there is a valor or experience upgrade to be made, I make those as well. I often trade complete garrisons from one city to another for these upgrades. They do tend to pay off.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

[Mikeus Caesar]

I don't know so much pre-marian, but post marian my legions typically consists of 2 Roman Cavalry, 4 Legionary Cohorts, 2 Archer Auxilia and some form of seige engine, depending what kind of settlement i'm attacking.

When it comes to Roman Civil War, i double those numbers (except for the seige engines) and throw in 2 units of Praetorians or Urbans.

And then i have my small demi-legions for dealing with rebels - 2 legionary cohorts, 1 archer auxilia and a scorpion. Archers take them out from a distance, scorpions scare them so they stay away and cohorts deal with them if they get too close. Just go about the countryside mopping up rebels with one of those, very efficient.

[sjmxru]

obviously there is an advantage of having varied troop types to support each other but is the a particular reason u ask what makes up a legion?

is there a free eagle or reconition or something?:idea2:

[Shieldmaiden]

Its just a pleasing name for a traditionally made up Roman Army (mostly Hvy Inf, supported by Cav, Aux, etc).

It is possible for a "Legion" to have an Eagle.

If you conquer Rome, you'll be able to train First Cohorts (with AOE morale-boosting Eagles) to add to your "Legions".

[mrdun]

wow, the eagles

[Flying Pig]

I do it the good old fashioned way- In RTW use a general of more than 5 Command- use him as a skirmisher to get this- 1 Urban Cohort and 9 either (on a budget) early leigionary cohorts or preferably 9 leigion cohorts. If I've got Rome I have a leigion first cohort, my best under 60 general and as many urbans as I can afford.

These legions tend to be used as armies that are always closely followed by a militia force and hopefully a manager in the stage of development who move into a city which the leigion has taken and enforce order. This leaves the mighty army of which I probably only have two in the empire free to take more cities.

An essential for a mighty infatry-based army is a fort each turn and a spy in the van to ensure they are almost impossible to ambush or attack with overwhelming force.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

in the beggining i use all sort of troops that i can get .. so armys that consist mostly mercenaries is not uncommon for me .. later part of the game i try to build legions in a proper way ..

pre-marian legion for me have a general, 4 hastati, 3 principes, 3 triarii, 2-4 cav units (in eastern armys i use more cav), 3-4 missile units (if i can then mostly cretans), the rest are some local mercenary i tend to use as garrison troops after taken an enemy settlement .. also take a spy with the army ..

after marian reforms i use 2 types of armys:
1.rebel fighting/empire defending
2.conquering armys

1.rebel fighting/empire defending armys - 3-4 early legionary cohorts, 2-3 cav units and local mercenaries .. these armys are differ from each other cause in east can not catch HA rebels with legionary infantry .. do not know why .. my men shold be professional soldiers :dizzy2:
2.conquering army - general, 8 legionary cohorts, 1rst cohort, 2 legionary cavalry units, rest are auxiliaries(mainly archers) and mercenaries .. also i use spy, diplomat and asassin in those armys .. assassino open the gates to kill there generals, spies to open the gates and diplomats to bribe armies .. so it is the whole package :2thumbsup:

preatorians i use only in those armies where my faction leader or heir is and in my capital Rome :)

[Hound of Ulster]

Mercs are great cannon fodder, saving your bona-fide Roman troops for raping, pilliaging and garrison duty in your newly conquered territory.

[rvg]

1 General
6 Plumbatarii
3 Archers/Eastern Archers
1 Carriage Ballista

[TWConqueror]

Pre-Marius?

1 General
2 Velites
5 Hastati
5 Principes
3 Triarii
2 Equites
2 Archers

Post-Marian

1 General (2 If Conquering)
10 Cohorts OR
9 Cohorts + 1st Cohort
1 Praetorian Cohort
2 Archer auxilia
2 Leg Cav

[Quirinus]

It depends on what's avaliable, I guess. For a Julii game, I generally don't get the most advanced troops I can build-- the barbarian lands are a logistical nightmare. So my Roman armies are generally very infantry-centric.

So earlier in the game, I usually have: one general, four or five veteran hastati, two to three greenhorn hastati, one or two barbarian mercs, and maybe a unit of equites.

Later in the game, when both the infrastructure of my cities and those of my enemies are more developed, the hastati are partially replaced with principes, as they are significantly better, and don't cost a sestertius more in upkeep compared to the hastati.

[mrdun]

Wow, thought this thread was finished!

[Punicus]

I'm playing the Brutii so real early on I like to go with a good 4 units of cavalry per half stack, this can include a general. Cavalry are more important when playing the Brutii in my opinion because Hastati head on with Hoplites is a win for Hoplites most of the time. So I always have cavalry support in there - plus I'm a big fan of using cavalry in general.

Anyways, I'll put 4-6 Hastati/Principes in there depending on what I feel my needs are. Whatever free space there is (if any) will be taken up by Velites or Archers if they're available.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

My legions never have a completely identical organization structure and usually adapt to deal with whatever I'm facing.

In Gaul, for example, I may only use a small number of basic cavalry units since the need to flank isn't quite so great. In Greece, on the other hand, my forces will always have at least four (of the better) cavalry units to deal with the annoyance of phalanxes from behind. Likewise, if I see a few units of elephants, I will train some javelin throwers (Velites and Light Auxila) or if I'm fighting Parthia I will attempt to use a combination of long ranged and fast units, with heavily armored units to absorb enemy fire.

Essentially though, all stacks contain mainly infantry combined with a varying number of archers and cavalry.

~:)

[mrdun]

Basically the same as any faction, infantry with what ever is needed against your foe.

[Quirinus]

Except for Parthia, Armenia, Scythia, and, to a lesser extent, Carthage. For the former three, horse archers should be the backbone of the army instead. For Carthage, I like to have a cavalry-centric army with infantry relegated to a support role, but that's just me.

[TruePraetorian]

I do it historical to the T (someone please explain what that means)

I use a full stack for both

Pre-Marian:
-4 hastati
-5 princeps
-4 triarii
-1 velite
-1 generals cavalry
-5 merc units of any type

This is very traditional. I set up the Hastati into the forst line. I put the velites inside the line to re-enact the actual 5 hastati (120 in each maniple and 40 velites, whereas the princeps had 160) and turn skirmish mode off.
The princeps make uo the second line, which is shortened to be like the hastati, and so is the triarii. My general is in the rear with the mercs on the flanks or sometimes in the front to act as a buffer.

Post-Marian:
-5-6 regular cohorts. 5 if i have a first cohort.
-4 early cohorts
-4 infantry auxillia
-1 Generals unit
-1 archer auxillia
-2 units of artillery
-2 units of mercs depending on location (barb mercanarys in gaul, hoplites in greece, spanish in spain, iberians in Carthage, etc)

Again, very traditional. I set up the Cohorts in the original fashion of two lines, alternating between regular and early cohorts (you can google it to see) with the first cohort on the top right side. The infantry auxillia are for the flanks, along with the mercs. I place the artillery and archers infront of my double line. When the enemy closes in, I advance my legionarys so that the archers and artillery are safely in the middle, able to shoot. My general is behind all of this (not far behind though)

The reason for the regulars and earlys is it very hard to train regulars in the outer provinces.

These methods work surprisingly well, in fact I won the game witht this style!

[mrdun]

mercs are good to recruit, have a field battle then disband, no upkeep

[Punicus]

mercs are good to recruit, have a field battle then disband, no upkeepI also like to hire weak and inexpensive mercenaries as temporary garrisons if I have to keep my army on the move fast while at war. For example I'll conquer a city, put some mercenaries in there and move on with as many troops as I can without causing a rebellion.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

mercs are good to recruit, have a field battle then disband, no upkeepI try to avoid that strategy since I consider it a bit of an exploit - it's a house rule I use.
I also like to hire weak and inexpensive mercenaries as temporary garrisons if I have to keep my army on the move fast while at war. For example I'll conquer a city, put some mercenaries in there and move on with as many troops as I can without causing a rebellion.I've never tried using mercenaries for garrisons in that way before - primarily because I never really thought about it. I'll give it a try in the future though. Unfortunately, since merceneries have a higher upkeep cost than units of a similar class and their numbers are limited, I'll probably only use them as a temporary measure until I can draft in my usual batch of rabble.

~:)

[mrdun]

Usual batch of rabble, haha. Do you have an merry band of town militia following?

[Quintus.JC]

The Romans were really big on artellaries. I remember the starting scene in Gladiator (film). fantastic!

[Spartan198]

Pre-Marian
I garrison cities with town watch while building ships and use mercenary armies for needed offensive operations.

Post-Marian Field Armies
1 Praetorian heavy cavalry captain
7 Legionary Cohorts (6 + 1 First Cohort if I control Rome)
4 Legionary Heavy Cavalry
2 Cavalry Auxilia in place of better light cavalry
4 Archer Auxilia
2 Onagers / Heavy Onagers for toppling city walls as well as to frighten enemies

Post-Marian Garrisons
6 Infantry Auxilia
5 Roman Cavalry (includes one to act as captain)
2 Archer Auxilia

[Quirinus]

Usual batch of rabble, haha. Do you have an merry band of town militia following?
Actually, I do! Not following tightly, but generally, once my main army has left their base city and started campaigning, I start to churn out militias from peripheral troop-training centres-- those that have a respectable population, but do not have the infrastructure to be full-fledged troop factories yet.


I try to avoid that strategy since I consider it a bit of an exploit - it's a house rule I use.
Why would you consider it an exploit? This strategy would be extremely costly, wouldn't it? Paying full recruitment price for one-shot use? I do use a variation of this tactic though-- if I think that I am in no danger of losing a battle on the way, I only hire mercs before a big battle or siege. Money conservation is pretty important for the Julii.

[caravel]

Why would you consider it an exploit? This strategy would be extremely costly, wouldn't it? Paying full recruitment price for one-shot use? I do use a variation of this tactic though-- if I think that I am in no danger of losing a battle on the way, I only hire mercs before a big battle or siege. Money conservation is pretty important for the Julii.
Perhaps because the game is easy enough as it is? I tend to hire only the Mercs that I need and no more, those are usually the Rhodian Slingers and Cretan Archers. When playing as factions that are well out of the recruitment areas of the aforementioned my Merc usage is almost nil. If I do hire any in an emergency then I hold on to them and use them as garisson units at least. Hiring them for a one off to push your siege equipment then disbanding is a bit cheesey. :book2:

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Why would you consider it an exploit? This strategy would be extremely costly, wouldn't it? Paying full recruitment price for one-shot use? I do use a variation of this tactic though-- if I think that I am in no danger of losing a battle on the way, I only hire mercs before a big battle or siege. Money conservation is pretty important for the Julii.Its more the lack of any upkeep charge which I consider an exploit more than anything else. I'm a fairly rare user of mercenaries anyhow, considering their ability to be instantly recruited a little too useful against an already disadvantaged AI.

~:)

[Flying Pig]

NEVER EVER EVER keep mercs in a city or you'll end up wondering why yu're on -100000000 To Be Continued income and have only one roman unit

[Punicus]

NEVER EVER EVER keep mercs in a city or you'll end up wondering why yu're on -100000000 To Be Continued income and have only one roman unitMy suggestion to keep them in a city as a garrison and move on was meant as temporary - keep them there to keep order until you have a sufficient amount of your own units to maintain peace, as Omanes said.

[Caius]

I use mercenaries when I need to boost my numbers of soldiers. Or when I need to increase the population, but only if its very need.

[Quirinus]

I never said I disband them afterwards. :) Especially when fighting in barbarian lands, I only disband mercs (who are relatively cheap to maintain and fairly effective, anyway) when their numbers get too low (say, if their numbers fall into the single digits) or when I really need the population to prop up an emptied-out town. I hate it when I enter a barbarian stronghold, only to discover that they have bled the town dry in the process of fighting me. There's really not much you can do with a town with, say 500 people left, except to sit on it for a inordinately long time.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

There are some mercs I hire with out thinking. Like cretan archers, or dare I say...Mercenary War Elephants!! They pose such an advantage in the field, that you never find yourself regreting getting them.

[Quirinus]

Yes, but they are also prohibitively expensive to recruit and maintain, which is a problem if you're strapped for cash.

My mercenary recruitment policy depends on how much money I have, mainly. If I have tons of money and I'm teetering dangerously close to 50000d, I will go on a mercenary recruiting spree. Other than the fact that it's always nice to have an extra unit of super-fast light cavalry or dirt-cheap skirmishers, I sometimes also use them to scour my lands for brigands.

[The Wandering Scholar]

I tend to mass recruit mercs in early gamewith Carthage. Historically that's what they did when war came knocking.

[Quirinus]

Yep, same here. And Carthage has the income to support it, too. My gripe with Carthage is that it doesn't take into account how most soldiers in the Carthagenian armies were mercenaries.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

In a way, the mercenary factor in Carthage's armies is sort of considered by the game through them being forced to draft archers and similar ranged units from mercenary regions. I'm not sure whether its a deliberate feature or simply an unintentional addition though. Probably the latter, since I don't think Carthage historically lacked archers and similar ranged units.

~:)

[Hannibalbarc]

In a way, the mercenary factor in Carthage's armies is sort of considered by the game through them being forced to draft archers and similar ranged units from mercenary regions. I'm not sure whether its a deliberate feature or simply an unintentional addition though. Probably the latter, since I don't think Carthage historically lacked archers and similar ranged units.

~:)
I almost certain Carthage didn't lack archers(historicly speaking), they used a lot of Numidians and Iberians in their armies and the Numidians were made up of cav and light inf(javelinmen and archers), and the reason that archers aren't mentioned often is because the Balearic slingers were far better than any archers at the time.
Also in the game they have archers on top of their eles, why not on foot? and I believe I've said this before, Carthage should be able to recruit more units like Spanish mercs and Numidian cav, because the Romans can recruit their mercs.

[The Wandering Scholar]

because the Romans can recruit their mercs

Can they? (rtw v1.5)

[TruePraetorian]

Speaking of Merc War Ele's and Cretan Archers, does anyone frequent in purchasing Merc Hoplites? I do, as they prove invaluable as a Roman faction to guard gateways and such...

BTW is this topic about Rome's Legions or any faction's "Legions", because it's getting awfully into the despised, un-honourable Carthaginians...:dizzy2:

[Hannibalbarc]

Can they? (rtw v1.5)
auxilia(sp?) archers, auxilia infantry, auxilia cavalry.
Sorry about changing the topic, I seem to be good at that.
If you stop calling the Carthaginians un-honorable I'll do my best to keep on topic, deal? great.~D

[The Wandering Scholar]

Obviously it depends on the location of my rmies and the foes I am facing. Generally against the Gauls I use:
1Gen ----the best can muster. I like the jupiter temples which give 'strategist' traits
5Infantry --the best again, one or two samnites the hold things
2missile -- I lik velites but archers can be useful
2cav--mainly to chase routers who are running from my pila!

Against pikes:
1Gen
7Infantry - -in this there will be merc hoplites to hold their pikes so I can get my romans flanking
1missile - -preferably Cretans
1cav- -basic flanking to weakened units, chase routers

Africa:

1Gen
4Infantry- - up against less infantry
4 missile - -for ellies
1 cav-- numidians

East:

1 Gen
3 Infantry --not needed in the east
1 missile - again not really needed
5 cav -- mainly mercs, missile cav is important. Cav is where the fights going to be won or lost.
3 Infantry

[Quintus.JC]

East:

1 Gen
3 Infantry --not needed in the east
1 missile - again not really needed
5 cav -- mainly mercs, missile cav is important. Cav is where the fights going to be won or lost.
3 Infantry

I personally tries to avoid going to war with Eastern Factions as the Romans, but when it comes to it I find chasing Horse Archers with your cavalry is rather pointless. while the legions can stand their ground and form the Testudo, your cavalry is left vulernable in the open. is their a really effective way to deal with Missile Cavalry? The Greeks often employed Militia cavalry in masses and I couldn't deal with them properly either.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Most missile cavalry are weak in hand to hand. The only problem is you've got to get them there in that situation first without taking a critical level of losses yourself.

A simply method to deal with missile units, is to set your troops into the "Loose Formation" rather than the "Tight Formation" which they are in by default.

Since missile weapons don't have 100% accuracy, there is a fairly high chance that, with loose formation enabled, the projectiles will land in between the troops causing fairly minimal damage.

If you have access to the "Testudo" special ability then you ought to use that rather than simply loose formation against standard (non-siege or large stone wall or above) missile weapons though.

Another method involves using similar missile troops of your own and using them to shoot at the attackers, hopefully causing more damage than they are.

Another tactic is to try and use poor quality peasants and similar men to absorb missiles and encourage the enemy to focus on them rather than your mainlines. This can sometimes be difficult though, since I've noticed the AI usually prefers firing on higher quality troops up to a certain extent.

~:)

[The Wandering Scholar]

The so-called dumb AI

[Quintus.JC]

forgot about using loose formation. they're really effective.
although I never really remembers this in the heat of battle.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Always stay cool in battle, QJC. A panicking general will always make mistakes.

[Good Ship Chuckle]

@QJC
I would reccomend playing the Battle of Cannae in the Historical battles of RTW. It puts you right in that situation of having mostly heavy roman legions and some roman cav to take out a parthian army of Persian Cav and Cataphracts. ~:doh: Play that a couple times, and you should be an expert against eastern tactics with the Romans.

[Quintus.JC]

@QJC
I would reccomend playing the Battle of Cannae in the Historical battles of RTW..........


It's the battle of Carrhae, Cannae is when Hannibal smashed Roman forces in the 2nd Punic War.

[Quirinus]

Sorry to come back to the topic of mercenaries, but I've found that, when fighting horse archers in the East, it does help to hire a few units of eastern mercenaries. These guys are cheap, numerous, and have pretty good defense, considering their cost. They might be prone to routing, though, but they're expendable anyway.

[The Wandering Scholar]

A better solution would be to control Cartahge first, recruit numidian jav cav. They'll eat HA's alive.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

A better solution would be to control Cartahge first, recruit numidian jav cav. They'll eat HA's alive.The problem with them is catching up. They have fairly equal speed and a much lower range, often resulting in them ending up taking a high level of damage while the horse archers keep firing on them from a distance. Their pitiful defence doesn't really help in this matter, and often they flee from the field before they even gain a chance to throw a single projectile at the enemy.

If you can catch up with the horse archers without taking any damage somehow, taking them out with javelin based cavalry can actually work. The problem is ensuring the horse archer unit is sufficently distracted by something else, and that it won't avoid your attacking troops when it runs into them. This usually is much easier when the horse archer is tired, but by then it's probably already caused a level of damage large enough to make killing them a fairly worthless exersise.

~:)

[The Wandering Scholar]

Oh, are jav cav not quicker than HA's? I thought they were. My humble apologies.