What kind of animals are we?

[Don Corleone]

So, There's been a series of 'parents that never should have been' articles in the news lately. A couple in Detroit that killed their toddler and cremated his remains in their barbecue, sticking the unburnt portions up in their ceiling. Then there was one where a woman whipped her child to death with a belt on Thanksgiving Day. And of course, this horror show (http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/national/2007/11/26/Child_s.Remains/?cvqh=itn_baby).

Now I know what people are going to say... that this is a small portion of the population...that I didn't know this child, or any of the others in recent news stories, etcetera. But I really honestly do feel sick inside when I read stories like this. Is there anything we can do? I may have to rethink my position on capital punishment. :shame:

[Fragony]

No such thing as we.

http://static-p-a.comcast.net/api/assets/img/2007/11/24/2402037d46308ce024d591f37854aca8.jpg

[Husar]

She looks soo cute. :no:

I wonder what makes a parent do that? Alcohol? Some sort of mortal curiosity? Are they emotionless? I mean why would someone seriously consider doing that to their own child?

[Lemur]

Geez, Don, didja have to post that? As a parent, I'm sure you know, this is extra-upsetting. I'm going to go have a drink and attempt to forget I ever read that article.

[Don Corleone]

Well, how did you miss the story? It's plastered all over Foxnews and CNN and has been for several days.

I don't like stories like that any more than you do. It really does cause me pain to think about that poor little girl. I really could cry. But whether I read the article or not, stories like this one are happening every day.

We are the absolute worst species on the planet when it comes to caring for our young. And no society that tolerates things like this can make a legitimate claim to 'putting children first'. It's bullshit. We don't. Most Western nations don't. Kids are property, and parents are allowed way too much lattitude to be bad parents.

The more I read stories like this, the more reasonable Singapore looks. :whip:

[Geoffrey S]

The only thing I can ever think of is to know thy neighbour. The only way to prevent these kind of horrors from taking place is to know people in the neighbourhood, to recognize signs. I don't know about exact cases, and I certainly haven't been around as long as most of you guys, but I think it's safe to say that over the years direct contact has become less frequent and in general contact with strangers (in shops, public transport etc.) has become colder. That is something we can work against, and something I'd hope lessens the chances of cases like these going unnoticed.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Ouch, I got to about halfway into that story, then it started to make me physically ill and I stopped.

This is a tough subject, Don. To name but one aspect, do you want a government employee knocking on your door, having full rights to enter your house, and you yourself being questioned about whether you do nasty things with your daughter? :shame:

To what extent privacy and parental rights should be protected, where the balance needs to be, I don't know. I think I might want to have it shifted more in favour of child protection. But I realise this will come at a grievous cost too.

[Lemur]

Well, how did you miss the story? It's plastered all over Foxnews and CNN and has been for several days.
I have to admit, I haven't been subjected to cable news in months. My TV budget is small, time-wise, and I don't devote any of it to news. For that I've got my weekly Economist, a few blogs, Google News for a quickie overview, that sort of thing.

See the fun I miss? And I look forward to going on missing it. Ick. Ugh.

[RoadKill]

We are the most stupid, the most violent, the most ignorant, the most insane kind of animal.

[Don Corleone]

I have to admit, I haven't been subjected to cable news in months. My TV budget is small, time-wise, and I don't devote any of it to news. For that I've got my weekly Economist, a few blogs, Google News for a quickie overview, that sort of thing.

See the fun I miss? And I look forward to going on missing it. Ick. Ugh.

I meant their websites. I don't get much time for televison either. Although you do offer one solution... ignorance is bliss.

[Crazed Rabbit]

There's six billion people across this globe. With such a large sample size, we're bound to have outliers.

At least, that's what I tell myself to not get dismayed by humanity. That the vile depths to which some sink are but a rare occurrence, that the public's revulsion with horrors such as these shows our general goodness.

And I know I can hardly stand to read it. Words cannot express the event.

As for what to do, I haven't got a clue. It's like lightning out of a clear sky, in a way.

CR

[Hepcat]

How horrific! That's even worse than the case of three-year-old Nia who was abused and died here a couple of months back. :shame:

[Odin]

So, There's been a series of 'parents that never should have been' articles in the news lately. A couple in Detroit that killed their toddler and cremated his remains in their barbecue, sticking the unburnt portions up in their ceiling. Then there was one where a woman whipped her child to death with a belt on Thanksgiving Day. And of course, this horror show (http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/national/2007/11/26/Child_s.Remains/?cvqh=itn_baby).

Now I know what people are going to say... that this is a small portion of the population...that I didn't know this child, or any of the others in recent news stories, etcetera. But I really honestly do feel sick inside when I read stories like this. Is there anything we can do? I may have to rethink my position on capital punishment. :shame:

You are a very compassionate person Don, I envy that trait. I've frankly dulled to it all. I was home early the other day about 2pm, turned on the tube and within 5 minutes saw 3 adverts for shows. CSI or some other crap, each one with a dead body, a screaming woman about to meet a horrible fate,a suave criminal.

I dont know man, the kids thing gets to me too. I'm for capital punishment myself, but I dont think thats really going to help the fringe cases. I had a pretty stern upbringing myself, I got the belt a couple of times but whipped to death? WTF :thumbsdown:

[Papewaio]

No bail for starters,
And either the death penalty
OR life in prison and a pair of pricks vasectomy for the guy and the equivalent for the woman. They definitely have lost the right to procreate.

[master of the puppets]

still, no guarentee the neighbors can act. ok guys i'm gonna open up a little so be prepared.

There are many kinds of abuse, this is sickening and cruel but other kinds can be just so. In my jr. year art class there was this girl, extremely shy and as far as everyone could presume a little off. most of the time when she came about and said weird things about helping people and knowing they were in pain people would simply dismiss her (uh... yeah *walks away*)
Unfortunatly my parents taught my compassion, so i listened to her and she became quite dependant on her talks with me and my consolation over her odd feelings. but as she talked and i so foolishly listened it became obvious she was the spawn of a dual psycho relationship. At first she talked about her sister mostly, how her sister had done what i was now doing, listen, support, protect, that is until her sister cut her wrists in attempted suicide, her sister changed then according to her, she became more distant, less protective. I unknowingly began to fill the void.
As her dependance on me became more clear and me more alarmed and i admit worried for her more problems made themselves evident. she was raised as a slave, that is the only way to describe it, she is meek as a feild mouse but without the common sense to flee danger, her parents had raised her till she was like 6 then started to have her do all the chores, cook, clean, when she got older she had to work because her loser father was unemployed. and still she was burdened with all the sorrows, and all the angers of the family. i learned her father pushed her around and her mother screamed at her and never cared for her at all. even the day when her sister, the only one who cared for her, slit her own wrists she came home to an empty house with no message, 6 hours later the hospital called to tell, 6 months in a psychiatric ward changed her sister for in all that time they were never even allowed to speak.
So now this tragic girl, who is some kind of freakin math genius is alone with the distant mother, abusive father, and the newly estranged sister. the parents then divorce she and the sister go with the father (for reasons i do not know) and the sister who used to fight on her behalf fought no longer, the abuse got worse.
I stepped in, i convinced her that it was wrong what was happening to her, for previously she was one of the sad cases where she believed the abuse was her fault and pitied her father rather than hate him. I convinced her to move in with the mother who i believed to be the better of the two. we went to the fathers house and truth be told i was ready to kick his *** if he tried anything. to my utter disgust the pig actually cried as we moved all her stuff out. i was now beginning to grasp the emotional and mental instability of the whole family but somehow i had convinced myself that the mother would surely not be so bad. the father protests and weeps but regardless we move her out and to her mothers, things will get better... right?
Shew is staying with her mother for a time, i don't know where she got my number but now she is calling all the time, she is so dependant, so weak, the pity i feel is honestly mingled with disgust, me being so strong willed and not truly understanding her inability to act.
slowly but surely things go south with the mother who i now know to be as much of a lunatic as the father. the mother harnesses the poor girls weakness of spirit and drives her to do all the house work, all the cooking, all the cleaning and to have a job cleaning others houses which the girl insists on donating to a church (i try to fight this but as with other meek creatures she finds strengh in her god). any deviation from the work, if she does not do her work the punishments are cruel. the mother has taken from her over time, for either not doing work at my insistance (yes ladies and gentalmen i told her to resist) or for no good reason, her computer, tv, blankets, and clothes. now that winter has fallen in ernest the mother has taken to shutting off the girls heat as punishment, or denying the girl food. none of her punishments are enforced to by lock or key though, oh no, she has raised the poor child to not dare go against the word of the mother, she dares not turn on the heat or venture to the fridge, even when the mother is not there.
Her calls to me are coming every night now, i dread them, she always says that they make her feel infinatly better but it is a vampiric effect for she drains any sentiment of happiness from my very bones. i truly begin to hate her for what she is. then the calls come less frequent and stop.
i try to content myself with the silence but my mother investigates, turns out her dear sister, who once loved and defended her like no one else broke her cell phone and so took this poor child's. her life is growing more tragic, her mother refuses to give her any money for a car or even take her for her permit, and worst of all she has asserted that she will not spend a cent to aid the girl through college.
and thats the end, that is how it is today, as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow. Child Protective Services has been notified by a guidance councellor but i am sure they do not know the whole story as i do. i dared not call them before because i realized that the girl being so meek if she was put in a home for girls with the daughters of crack-heads and gang-bangers, inner city children and violent youths, they would utterly destroy her or easily bent her to there will and unchallenged servitude.
I said before that only i have this knowledge so you may ask why i so easily impart it to you strangers. It is because now after all this time, truly in my heart of hearts i despise this wretched pathetic being who insists on feeding off my strengh and happiness, i can't do it any longer, i really can't.

wow, that was a lot harder to write than i thought it would be ...i feel sick, i'm going to bed, srry if i hijacked the thread.

[Husar]

That's an interesting story master.
I think phonecalls aren't enough in that case but they seem to show that she is looking for a way out.
She will need to get a backbone though, one way or the other, hard to say what's best but in your case I'd try to support her still, maybe try another approach, if she has a job, maybe she can live on her own?

On the main topic, I'm inclined to agree with Pape, though the death penalty sounds almost like the easy way out.

[Papewaio]

Have you told your parents?

I know a couple who took in a friends daughter after they found out how horrible they were being to her.

[AntiochusIII]

I refuse to read that link.

No offense intended to Don or anything like that, but I'm as sissy as anyone goes, and I need sleep tonight. Seeing the picture of the girl and, well, guessing the "result" from the tone of thread is enough for me I think.

Also, wow, master, that truly is a tragic story. Don't blame yourself if you've come hate her -- I would in the same position. But I must also admit that you might just as well be her last hope, so I really don't know what to say.

[Hepcat]

Have you told your parents?

I know a couple who took in a friends daughter after they found out how horrible they were being to her.

I know of a similar situation though less extreme. One of my friends lives with his girlfriend's family because his parents were abusive and alcoholics. He told me that once when his father (who is much older than his mother) was about to hit his sister he stood in the way and shoved the old man back so hard he almost flew through the glass sliding door. Also his father abused his mother too and she'd left him once but came back after a while. From what I understand his younger sister generally stays away from home too, she is pretty nice to everyone and she gets on really well with her brother.

Then one of my Maori friends at Intermediate School lived with his auntie along with his brothers and sisters, and his aunt's children. When I asked him why he doesn't live with his parents he said it was because his father was dead and his mother was in prison. I never enquired any further about his parents, though, despite his rough upbringing he was one of the kindest people you could imagine and had a great sense of humour. Though because we went to different high schools we lost contact after the first year.

@master of the puppets: So yeah, I agree with Pape, try find someone else who can help.

hmm... I should really try and write shorter posts. :sweatdrop:

[Viking]

There's six billion people across this globe. With such a large sample size, we're bound to have outliers.


I think that is the best way to explain it..

[Vladimir]

What's with mothers in Texas killing their children? It's been a good place to beat and drown them.

[KukriKhan]

What kind of animals are we?

Mostly: loving, caring, protective, providing ones.

Occasionally: brutal, selfish, pain-inflicting, murderous ones.

Tragically, (larger) group A often doesn't know about (smaller) group B until after-the-fact.

That's just the way it is, unless we revert to punishing sex outside of marriage, and licensing marriage at least as strictly as we license vehicle drivers.

edit: In my personal opinion.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Apes. With better positive qualities and worse negative ones.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Now I know what people are going to say... that this is a small portion of the population...

You're right, that's what I was going to say. Most of us humans aren't like that, and that is at least worth cheering over.



Is there anything we can do? I may have to rethink my position on capital punishment. :shame:
I don't think capital punishment is the way. I think it's important that all people have someone watching them. NOT the state - that's the route to absolutism and despotism. But to make sure that everyone has some relatives and friends around them - some "herd" - where everybody makes sure to visit each others every once in a while and check that everything looks ok. Many of these insane child abuse situations have been going on for a very long time and develop gradually, and so there is a good chance of detecting and stopping it while it's still, well not acceptable, but at least small enough that the child can be saved from permanent damages or death. It will not prevent all cases, but I think we'd have a much better society in other aspects as well if we would be able to ensure this. Globalization and constant movement of people in search of jobs (seems like almost every group of friends and relatives are split up all over the country on a regular basis) is a bad thing. Drugs also seems common among these child abusers. Alcohol is a well-known reason behind beating of children, but perhaps not so common among child murderers. Anyway, in short I think these deeds are signs of a generally ill society. From a psychological perspective, I find these types of abuses the most difficult to understand the causes behind. I'm afraid that apart from reducing general madness-causing worries, isolation, drugs etc. these types of crimes will be some of the crimes we'll have least chance of methodically reducing and/or stopping by clever preventive measures. As for punishment, forced sterilization and lifetime or near lifetime in jail is good enough as it - unlike death penalty - doesn't threaten personal integrity and safety of the citizen from rise of despotism.