EB 1.1 Suggestions 2

[Maksimus]

ONE BIG CALL FOR HUMANITY - PLEASE!

Originally posted by ''Barbarossa82'' in his ''Gold Mod Collection''. The term “extermination” sounds too cruel, and that was not the case in history

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90798

''EXTERMINATION AND PUBLIC ORDER
The problem: In pure vanilla, you have the option to "exterminate" a settlement you conquer, and the game tells you how many people will be killed. Because of squalor, culture penalty and distance to capital, extermination can quickly become the rule rather than the exception as your empire grows. This not only makes it hard to roleplay a faction with any degree of humanity, but is quite unhistorical. Organised mass slaughter of the majority of a settlement's population was historically rare. More likely was a situation where a commander would allow his troops to basically run riot, looting, raping, pillaging and generally brutalising the settlement. The difference here is that a lot of the locals would just flee or be turned out of their homes rather than being rounded up, executed and buried in a mass grave as RTW's text and graphics imply.
The solution: Text, the "exterminator" line of traits and graphics have been changed to make it a bit more ambiguous what exactly is happening in the settlement you decide to exterminate. Instead of the option to "exterminate populace", you are now given the option to "suppress populace". The text descriptions, graphics and sounds are now more consistent with the spontaneous depredations of a victorious army set loose by their commander, rather than the 20th-century-style industrialised genocide implied by the original text. Of course if you're a complete git who loves the idea that your troops go around wiping out entire populations, the new text is ambiguous enough to allow you to believe that.''

https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/7866/suppressionoptionkb4sz7.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5608/suppressiondz7md8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

I really agree on this, can EB team use this feature as on far more real and better solution for the game:shrug:

AND ONE MORE THING!

I have already posted the BALLISTA solution's here - like add to exp_descr_units.txt 2 times more soldier's and an Officer and SBear and 2 times more ballistas in the unit - then lower the ballista attack by 2 times - and you have unit that LOOK's like a unit and make's sence to COST like HELL!:san_angry:

Please.. EB team comment (I know that some EB member's already answerd the Ballista question but I just want to make sure they did not forhet the answer's :san_grin:

[cmacq]

BALLISTA solution?

[Maksimus]

Yes, so that it would look like this..

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;EB Siege;;;;;;;;;;;;;
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

;343
type generic siege 3span
dictionary generic_siege_3span ; Triaspanai Katapeltai
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 48, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine scorpion
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 2, scorpion, 350, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000
ownership romans_brutii, romans_julii, numidia, macedon, saba, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii, parthia, seleucid, slave, pontus, armenia, gauls, britons, scythia, germans, dacia, spain

;344
type generic siege 3cubit
dictionary generic_siege_3cubit ; Triakubitai Katapeltai
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 32, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine catapulta
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, ballista, 280, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 9000, 2500, 30, 40, 9000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;345
type generic siege 30mina
dictionary generic_siege_30mina ; Triakontaiminai Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, boulder, 300, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;346
type generic siege 1talent
dictionary generic_siege_1talent ; Monotalanta Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 38, 2, big_boulder, 240, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;347
type roman artillery scorpio
dictionary roman_artillery_scorpio ; Vitruvian Scorpions
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 48, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine scorpion
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 14, 2, scorpion, 380, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000
ownership seleucid, slave

;348
type roman artillery catapulta
dictionary roman_artillery_catapulta ; Vitruvian catapulta
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine catapulta
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 2, ballista, 303, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 9000, 2500, 30, 40, 9000
ownership seleucid, slave

;349
type roman artillery 30mina
dictionary roman_artillery_30mina ; Vitruvian 30 mina stone thrower
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 32, 2, boulder, 303, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership seleucid, slave

;350
type roman artillery 1talent
dictionary roman_artillery_1talent ; Vitruvian 1 talent stone thrower
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 42, 2, big_boulder, 270, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership seleucid, slave

This is one solution for better look's of siege equipment and for the worth of Money you spend on it, This is one suggestion that add's officer's, more man power and more siege pieces for ballista unit's.. Do, In vice versa method - you are lowering the attack value verses the more amoun't of siege pieces added in EDU. In ancient times, numbers of units very much greater in siege unit's and they had officer's - or you can consider them to be enginerires.. And it would solve prob I have when I have to give 4500 per turn just for couple of peasant's with two siege gun's:gah:

https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2843/34758992fz0.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7307/91093320sy2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img90.imageshack.us/img90/797/77120654zx1.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8231/64222943ao2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

Now, this looks like one siege :D

[Centurion Crastinus]

I agree, I think it would be more realistic to rape and pillage a town as oppossed to massacaring it. I usually just enslave the populace.

[The General]

https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7307/91093320sy2.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
Now that sure is a lot of handlers, most of whom have the perfect opportunity to stand there doing nothing.

[Palasta]

The main problem is, the player is allowed every single time he captured a city, to choose between those three options and of course, most will go for the easy way and send the soldiers in for killing and looting. No severe consequences, a plenty of cash and keeping down the unrest.

The presented "solution", i guess it is only make-up and the effects remain the same. Is the process of capturing a settlement actually moddable or absolutely hardcoded?

EDIT: Sorry for that, i meant "make up", not "make over". :inquisitive:

[Darth Stalin]

Well, as a Roman player in my EB campaign at the beginning I preferred to enslave rather than to exterminate, as half of the populace was moved to my own settlements )those with family members as governors), so I could rather well steer the process of growth when I needed my city to grow faster.
Now, as I'm going to conquer larger settlements (and started from Syrakousai), I think that I'll start to loot, pillage and massacre, as I can get much more cash from that...

[anubis88]

that's really a problem for roleplaying... if you conquer a huge city you can forget about just occupying it since it will revolt very soon and kill half of your soldiers.... Again a stupid vanilla thing

[Maksimus]

Now that sure is a lot of handlers, most of whom have the perfect opportunity to stand there doing nothing.

Do you have one idea how many people is needed to position those stones we are launching in the city? No? - Well I don't know either:curtain:

But it sure is more people than we can add in the EDU (due to the engine)

The point here is that if you loose some soldier's you can still use the equipment, In that way it could be used in battle (as it was used) like in the case in siege's of ancient times.
If you loose some people you have an option tu use just 50% of equipment or 20% - that is closer to nicer look's, historical accuracy, realism and the VALUE of SIEGE that you need to PAY and MAINTAINE :shrug:

[The General]

Do you have one idea how many people is needed to position those stones we are launching in the city? No? - Well I don't know either:curtain:

But it sure is more people than we can add in the EDU (due to the engine)

The point here is that if you loose some soldier's you can still use the equipment, In that way it could be used in battle (as it was used) like in the case in siege's of ancient times.
If you loose some people you have an option tu use just 50% of equipment or 20% - that is closer to nicer look's, historical accuracy, realism and the VALUE of SIEGE that you need to PAY and MAINTAINE :shrug:
While I understand your point, I think the amount of crew was exaggerated.

I doubt there would've been dozens and dozens of people per siege "battery" (~unit) on the campaigns. Some extra members, yes, but doubt that many.

[Pharnakes]

There is a reason why the artiley is so expensive, and that was because they were a logistical nightmare to maitain on campaign, also, the operators were highly skilled individuals, who doutless expected to be shown "appreciation" for their skill.

[Thaatu]

How about changing "enslavement" to something like "mass deportation" that it seems to depict better? I don't know why slaves should be counted amongst the local population... I for one almost never use enslavement, because it doesn't resemble it one bit.

[Maksimus]

The main problem is, the player is allowed every single time he captured a city, to choose between those three options and of course, most will go for the easy way and send the soldiers in for killing and looting. No severe consequences, a plenty of cash and keeping down the unrest.

The presented "solution", i guess it is only a make over and the effects remain the same. Is the process of capturing a settlement actually moddable or absolutely hardcoded?


In RTW vanilla there was a BIG problem in whic you are doomed any way - That no matter how much army and building's (that have positive effect on public order) you have - you will have riot's.. That is very bad for gameplay and even worse for Historic accuracy!

- And yes, if those high level's of riot's per town verses one amount of let as say - 50 years - are so frequent that you are forced to leave the town to rebel's and then take it again by force just to keep it your own - Then yes, you or I just have to Exterminate the population more often and basically all the time in some period's :shrug:

Even bigger problem is that EB managed to Keep that Vanilla Extermination pace very well - and unfortunately for EB player's - in one very genuine vanilla way:san_angry:

Thera are much more simple solution's to unable the human player to exterminate all the time - Just by rising the public order point's to all building's can solve that and adding some law_bonuse's to academic's building's and wall's for example and barrack's too! :san_wink:

[Maksimus]

How about changing "enslavement" to something like "mass deportation" that it seems to depict better? I don't know why slaves should be counted amongst the local population... I for one almost never use enslavement, because it doesn't resemble it one bit.


I agree - we just have to get an EB member here :boxing:

I think it could be done.. I am for that change, even in the line meaning of "mass deportation" - one can conclude that it is manly about "enslavement" or "political deportation" - because in Some region's - like if Gonata's take's Athenai, there is really 0,1% of chances he would have ever exterminate the population of thar famous Hellenic city :shrug:

[NeoSpartan]

Suppress Populance????????? :inquisitive:

nah man... people were plundering (which in turn suppressed the population into submission).

I think renaming it to "LOOT and PILLAGE", is better. :yes:

[Maksimus]

Suppress Populance????????? :inquisitive:
nah man... people were plundering (which in turn suppressed the population into submission).
I think renaming it to "LOOT and PILLAGE", is better. :yes:

It really depend's on your personall tought - and what you like :san_wink:

I personally like the word suppression as a noun that is 'more profound' than "LOOT and PILLAGE" - and even that is more true than ''Exterminate'' :wall:. In our use of ''suppression'' I refer to the meanings like:

1. forceful prevention: conscious and forceful action to put an end to something, destroy it, or prevent it from becoming known
2. state of constraint: the state of being forcefully restrained or held back

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.:grin:

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

EB originally planned to change the occupy/enslave/etc, but didn't do it yet. The plan was to make 'enslave' something along the lines of 'displace' or 'exile', as already represented by the 'refugee camps' when you choose 'enslave'. This thread has brought the topic up again internally, though.

Personally, the term 'suppress' seems like turd polish to me since you are eliminating 5/6(?) of the population of the city no matter what it is called.

[Maksimus]

It is polished how ever :shrug:

That is a global trend :san_grin:

So, will this be done for EB 1.1?


note:Do you know how often NATO or US offical's used the ''collateral'' word to express what we now know as the mass killing's of civilian's in areas after their armies took part in - I wont start on oil/gas/coca war's here - but I will add that the first time ''collateral'' word was used in ''wider'' sence is during NATO 'solo' aggression on my country - and during the war campaign ''only'' 5000 people died on all side's. But in term's of peace 1999-2007 there are more than 14000 dead and missing civilian's from South Province of Serbia under UNMIK administration!

Sorry for this note - it was stronger then me:stwshame:

[Blazing141]

I agree with MAA. Call it what it is. As far as it not being what was actually done, I think the Romans did quite a bit of killing when they wanted to. the player should have all options open.

On another note, speaking of 1.1, I know it will be released when its done, but I wanted to ask if 1.1 was close to the "unite preview" video stage (i.e., imminently about to be released) or if there is still discussions about what the changes are going to be.

thanks for any insight.

[Wolfman]

pretty words for a naturally ugly thing. Suppress=Rape, Pillage etc, Displace= remove from homeland possibly strip culture from Displaced peoples. Enslave them, separate their families etc.


P.S. I guess Extermination and Enslavement is the wrong word for what happened to the jews in the 40's. Since they were removed from their homes to concentration camps and killed. Same with the African in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. He was just displaced too huh? Or the Native American, Or the Indian Etc. I must agree with Marcus. Slavery and Extermination are ugly words for an ugly subject and i think its a dishonor to those that experienced such things to try to pretty up what they went through for the modern palate. The Truth is ugly some times.

[Danest]

Weren't the Dacians mass-exterminated? ANd I thought that Caesar exterminated a fair few Gallic towns, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure where I heard this, so... I'll assume it's suspect. If anything, we should just change "exterminate" to "sack" and leave it as is... in large towns, plenty of people seem to survive, and most of the buildings are intact in many cases, so clearly it's not a true extermination.

[Wolfman]

Don't forget what rome did to the city of Carthage during the Third Punic War.

[Centurion Crastinus]

Weren't the Dacians mass-exterminated? ANd I thought that Caesar exterminated a fair few Gallic towns, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure where I heard this, so... I'll assume it's suspect. If anything, we should just change "exterminate" to "sack" and leave it as is... in large towns, plenty of people seem to survive, and most of the buildings are intact in many cases, so clearly it's not a true extermination.


Ceaser did cut the hands off of all the people revolting in the town of Uxellodenum in 51 B.C. at the conclusion of the Gallic War.

[Maksimus]

I really agree with you guys and I can add about 5-10 example's of extermination's in ancient history - Alexander did it as often as he could:gah:

But I must say - extermination's were not really a rule.. If EB team could add + 1 option to this that would be extermination's but I am for those option's to be able to ''flow'' only In cases when different cultures gain possession of diferent cultures settlement's - not in all cases:shrug:

Like - Hellene's did that but not so often in Greece as in Asia, in most cases Hellene's didn't wan't to exterminate Hellene's

[Barbarossa82]

Since we are debating something that was originally included in my mini-mod, I'd like to comment on a few of the things being raised.

The point of the renaming I brought into effect was to make the goings-on within the city ambiguous - in other words, vague enough to suit anything from serious looting up to genuine extermination.

Some of you have cited examples of times in history when genuine extermination did occur. Of course it did - but it was rare compared to the non-genocidal pillaging.

The real problem is that in RTW, one often finds oneself with no practical option but to exterminate, due to extremely low public order. This is historically unrealistic - the Romans did not have to kill 75% of the population of cities they conquered even on the periphery of their empire. The occasions when they did do it (i.e. Carthage) were motivated more by vengeance than by necessity.

If RTW's extermination option were something that the player only had to use through choice, then I'd have no problem keeping it as it is. It's because it needs to be used so often that it ought to have text and graphics corresponding to the tactics that ancient conquerors used routinely (rape and pillage), while still being vague enough to encompass what they did exceptionally (genocide).

And to the guy who brought up "what happened to the jews in the 40s": first of all, I do not appreciate the imputation that by making a modification to a video game, I am somehow trivialising the holocaust. And secondly, the industrialised, mechanised, organised genocide against the Jews perpetrated in German-controlled Europe is precisely the kind of thing that DIDN'T happen in ancient times, because there just wasn't the logistical capacity to do it. The sacking of cities - even where the majority of the population were rounded up and slaughtered - just doesn't compare.

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

"what happened to the jews in the 40s" should not be compared with anything that happened before, it was a genocide for no other reason than racism.

[oudysseos]

Instead of eliminating or sugar-coating the exterminate option, why not make it as unpalatable as possible? I don't know what the game engine limits will allow, but there should be fairly large negatives to go with the cash and easy public order. What if every time you did it your general went catatonic with guilt? Or lost influence? Or something bad.

[The General]

"what happened to the jews in the 40s" should not be compared with anything that happened before, it was a genocide for no other reason than racism.
There had been genocides before and racist-related massacres, but, yes, the Holocaust is a whole another story, because the level of organisation with which it was committed and the scale of it is, and hopefully will remain unparalleled



Instead of eliminating or sugar-coating the exterminate option, why not make it as unpalatable as possible? I don't know what the game engine limits will allow, but there should be fairly large negatives to go with the cash and easy public order. What if every time you did it your general went catatonic with guilt? Or lost influence? Or something bad.
'Restless Sleeper'? ~;p

[Wolfman]

I apologize for the Harshness of my words. I misunderstood. :shame:

[Maksimus]

Since we are debating something that was originally included in my mini-mod, I'd like to comment on a few of the things being raised...

I am glad you saw and commented this, hopefully, EB team will do something about it:square:

[Labrat]

EB originally planned to change the occupy/enslave/etc, but didn't do it yet. The plan was to make 'enslave' something along the lines of 'displace' or 'exile', as already represented by the 'refugee camps' when you choose 'enslave'. This thread has brought the topic up again internally, though.
Sounds good. It's silly that you can enslave a population and dragge them over to another city, and then are able to recruit them as hoplites/legionaries over there.

[MiniMe]

For me term "enslave" is Ok.
However, I dislike different vanilla/EB term - "hillmen".
Now who are these? Some kind of eastern hobbits?
Why everybody, who dwells in the hills is supposed to be dressed in rags, have an axe and a couple of javelins?
Or should we, as we see a badly dressed person with an axe and a javelin immedeatly come to conclusion that this person lives in the hills, in some kind of a tunnel, perhaps?
IMO strange choice of words.

[Foot]

Those people who live amongst the hills were largely pastoral, ie kept livestock, and due to the rocky and uneven landscape a more scattered formation was developed, using javelins, slings and light shields and spears. I don't think we use the term hillmen, except perhaps when we have the english translations (which aren't translations, but descriptive names). I see no problem with it.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

We have the Cappadocian Hillmen, the Hyrkanian Hillmen (or was that Hyrkanian Infantry?) and the Anatolian Hillmen AFAIK.

Notice that the "Hillmen" epiteth does really help distinguishing the various units from the regions. For example both the Caucassus and the Anatolian plateau offer a wide selection of local units that are just a local adaptation of widely spread 'style': axemen, light cavalry, medium cavalry, skirmishers, light spearmen and more ligh spearmen.

The ragged look has all to do with the fact that the Hillmen do not exactly come from the most prosperous parts of the world. It is not uncommon for them to seek a career in the military or as brigands either. So, one would imagine they could not afford to buy a new set of clothing after each battle and therefore would keep their best clothing far from it.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

The extermination-button is already ambiguous. "People of this town were killed or sold into slavery."

Although I would also prefer to have the options changed. My proposal would be

1. Occupy
There should be a reduction of the population by 5%. Even if you "only" occupy the city, you have to keep in mind that there are always individuals who chose to pack their things and leave. Occupation is always forceful (what else?), and the more influential citizens, the former ruling class, is very likely to leave and seek their fortune in another part of "their" original nation, where they obviously expect the best opportunities for themselves.

2. Enslave
I propose a reduction of the populace by 30% and their distribution to the governed cities. This option for me means that a part of the population is enslaved by appointment of the occupier's administration, with the goal to have these people till the fields or work in the mines at home. Alexander did that with Greek mercenaries after River Granicus iirc. Also there should be a bit more cash gained than present, for the fortunes of the enslaved are confiscated of course.

3. Let loose the hounds of war
For this option I'd say 65% population reduction is appropiate. You let your mercenaries go through the city, commit all kinds of crimes like murder, rape, burglary and setting fire. The enslaved are not taken home to till the fields, but to bolster the pay of your soldiers as their private property. For that you should not get more money than with option no. 2.

I hope it isn't hardcoded!

[Thaatu]

2. Enslave
I propose a reduction of the populace by 30% and their distribution to the governed cities. This option for me means that a part of the population is enslaved by appointment of the occupier's administration, with the goal to have these people till the fields or work in the mines at home. Alexander did that with Greek mercenaries after River Granicus iirc. Also there should be a bit more cash gained than present, for the fortunes of the enslaved are confiscated of course.
The problem with this is that you can then recruit those "slaves" as, let's say, Roman legionaries. The effects are probably HC'd, but not the names.

[Cybvep]

Ok, this topic seems to be the most appropriate (why are there no more pinned "suggestions" topics for 1.1?)... I have some suggestions concerning buildings. Firstly, I think that building "times" and costs are too low. It's too easy to change a small town to a great city, as it's both not time-consuming and not costly enough. Therefore, I suggest that you increase building "times" by multiplying them by 2 and greatly increase costs of the high-level buildings (and increase low-level buildings costs too, but not so much). Also, some structures are simply unbalanced - especially ports seem to have an extremely low cost-profit ratio. We also know that cities grow too fast, therefore I suggest that you add population growth penalties to the government buildings (I've done it myself and it helps).

From the smaller things:
1. IMO granaries are rather useless while they should be useful. Personally, I changed the "population growth bonus" to a "public health bonus" and eliminated the happiness bonuses, as phbs already increase public order. Phbs are more useful than pgbs (they help with squalor and increase happiness) and it's only logical that a granary would add such bonuses (food can be stored for a greater amount of time without rotting, it's easier to check it etc.).
2. Stone Walls are definitely too cheap and quickly become too widespreaded, while Larger Stone Walls are just ridiculous and should be eliminated. Also, some law bonuses for walls would be nice.
3. Roads... It's funny to see them everywhere after few years. They should be both more costly and more time-consuming, especially the paved ones. Also, I think that an additional "zero level" of roads should be added - something like "Path Preparations" in places where roads would be difficult to build.

[Maksimus]

I agree with you 100%!

It's just that EB team does not see it that way totaly - still, they support the CityMod - which stll does not solve most of problems:no:

In my older mod for vanilla, I used every single thing you just mentioned -
And If you want to change construction times and cost's for building's (so they go up) - you will have to change much in the ''descr_start.txt'' - and even better! In ''Campaign_script.txt'' - so that the Cites have all they 'HAD' of infrastructure and building's at the start already - those two in combination only make sence! That way, you don't have to build sewer's in settlement's that had them in about 500bc already.. the same goes for all many many building's

note: some EB team members already said that if they were to make 'historically' accurate ''descr_start.txt'' infrastructure for EB - then some of the cities would have only a 'few' more things left to build! But EB team doesn't want to 'break the fantasy' and leaves all player's most options so they can enjoy while developing one (any.) settlement..

Well, they dont have to do it for me..:no: My fantasy was to enjoy as historically accurate 'C_script' as possible.. Now, that is not the case due to the 'gameplay balance' EB team support's - But I understand that most player's like to 'explore' and construct all around the map (that makes you feel powerfull! ,).. even if that should not be the case - so I don't balme EB team - they must work for general public most of the time :grin:

Alexander EB team will tweak that in ''ExtendedAlexanderEBMod'' - EAEM :san_wink:

[Cybvep]

Sounds good. In fact, I can do it myself in my version of the game, but I don't have detailed information about structures in every city in the game :dizzy2: ... Any help?

[Maksimus]

You should look at historic map's or even better if you have one Historic Atlas :yes:

I personaly have alot sources in books - But I don't have much time for detailed research these days..

Anyway's - you can make it quite descent just by looking in Wiki pages :san_wink: