View Full Version : Turkish Navy getting whipped by Byzantine!!!
shokaku76
09-14-2002, 22:59
I had rather easy time smacking Byzantines around... not so... with their griggin navy... I upgraded the shipyeard, so I am producing boats with 2 speed and 2 attack and defense, which is completely outclassed by the Byzantines. Any hints??? In smacking their navy? I've ejected them from the Asia minor, and they are stuck in Cyprus, I think.
Annapolis
09-15-2002, 03:16
in history, the Byzantines always did have a better navy then the turks.
------------------
"Onward Chrisitan soldiers, marching as to war,
With the Cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ the royal Master leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see his banners go!"
S. Baring-Goul
Byzants get fire galleys - which I don't think anyone else gets due to their monopoly with Greek fire, sort of a primitive napalm/flamethrower.
Grifman
Italians have fire galley but they don't seem to get any deep water ship.
And to Annapolis: Where was the byzantine fleet when the turks conquered Constantinopol? It is said that the turks managed to cary their ships on land because the water was blocked by chain so the turks got ships. I wander were was the greek fleet maybe they were on business.
In the seige of Constantinople the Turkish navy was constantly outclassed and embarrasses by the Byzantine navy. The ships being moved over land was a suprise move, but in the end it didnt have any real effect on the battle.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-15-2002, 07:50
Xia is right...the Byzantine navy whoopd the turks in several engagments at the Siege of Constantinople.
One reason was that unlike the other navies of the time , the bulk of the Byzantine War fleet where sail powerd and stood much higher then Turkish ships...which gave them a real advantage when boarding the enemy.
The firegalleys were also oar powered. This gave them speed even without wind and allowed them to also travel upwind.
Lets also keep in mind that until effecient steam engines were around the fastest speed in ships was attained through oars.
I still don't understand why the Italians and Sicilians get fireships. The Egyptians used greek fire but not on ships but the italians never ever had access to greek fire. Oh well easy enough to change that.
Theinteresting thing about the siege was that if Constantinople had a few more men, the Turks may have failed at their assault because the Turks were only able to get into the city by climbing through an undefended area.
Also, please explain how you eliminate the ability of the Italians to get fireships?
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5990/byzantine/
This was posted a while back- its a real good read about the fall of Constantinople for those interested.
Thanks for that link. Tears just about came to my eyes considering what happened to those people. What a sad end to a great nation that protected Europe from barbaric invasions for centuries.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-15-2002, 12:29
and how ironic that the two City states that have been trying to destroy the empire for centuries where the only western europeans who fought with thme till the end.
Yes the turks had nearly lost all hope.
shokaku76
09-15-2002, 12:44
I've also been fascinated by the sieges. It was always in constant evolution. Turns out Italians were premier experts in both construction of the fortification as well as Siege warfare! Did you know, Leonardo Da Vinci was quite a fortification engineer?
Absolutely fascinating. Anyways, it is no surprise that Italians played significant role in both Byzantine side and Ottoman side. Ottomans made use of many European experts, such as Bulgarian Artilery experts, and Italian Siege Experts.
In 1922, the Greeks nearly re-established the empire and if not once again for the treachery of the West, they would have captured land all the way to Ankara.
I've lived to see the day that communism collapsed in Russia, now I only want to see one more thing...
"What a sad end to a great nation that protected Europe from barbaric invasions for centuries."
It wasn't like they were "protecting" Europe out of the goodness of their hearts or anything.
And barbaric? YOu do realize that for all of the Middle Ages, the Islamic world was far more civilized in pretty much every way you can think of than Europe?
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-16-2002, 01:13
UHm Islamic Civ yes...meaning Arabs....but Seljuk and Ottoman turks...eh i donmt think so.
ANd to refresh your memory , the Arabs got all their knowlege from the Byzantines (and china)who preserved greek and roman writing in their grand libaries.
And then it Went from Arabs to the Western Europeans.
Byzantium preserved Civ
I respect the Islamic empire of old...but the Turks...
Man a lot of greek suporters here.
They should know that they losed Constantinopol by their own fault. when they will accept this? for centuries greeks defended the city whith money but when they run out of it they faced the fact that did not know how to fight and greeks were destroyed by their own former mercenaries.
But it's not entirely their fault few european nations in that time could resist such a ferocios army.
You greeks must accept that Constantinopol is lost forever you are now a small nation and pray that you don't angry the turks because you could lose as little as you have.
Quote Originally posted by Paladin:
In 1922, the Greeks nearly re-established the empire and if not once again for the treachery of the West, they would have captured land all the way to Ankara.
I've lived to see the day that communism collapsed in Russia, now I only want to see one more thing...[/QUOTE]
And what would have happened to the millions of Turks living in Asia Minor? Outnumbering the Greeks, would the Greeks have made them citizens and given the right to vote? Or would they have expelled them - as was done by both sides in the war. Both sides expelled the other side - over a million Greeks had to leave Turkey and over 400,000 Turks had to leave Greece. Given that a continuing Greek population in Asia Minor only continued to provide an excuse for Greek claims to parts of the area, can't really blame the Turks for wanting them out.
Greeks seems to think Turks were the only ones committing atrocities, but both sides were guilty of attacking and murdering civilians. Both have been slaughtering each other for centuries. It's time to give it up and deal with each other like civilized nations. The past is done.
Grifman
Grifman, absolutely true.
The Arabs got all their knowledge from the Byzantines? I have got to disagree with this. The history of the Arabs, despite what certain scholars will tell you, actually consisted of more than transmitting classical knowledge to Western Europeans.
The Ottoman Empire was an empire like any other at the time: brutal, corrupt, autocratic, oppressive. But it was also more tolerant than many others, including the Byzantine Empire which came before it.
As for Byzantium saving civilization, let's just say that statement presumes that Byzantine and European civilization is the only civilization out there. Frankly, that's just a BIT presumptuous.
Yummy, nationalistic fueled posts, arguing about the superority of two "once great but now small and harmless" countries.
*gets popcorn*
Quote Originally posted by Ckrisz:
Grifman, absolutely true.
As for Byzantium saving civilization, let's just say that statement presumes that Byzantine and European civilization is the only civilization out there. Frankly, that's just a BIT presumptuous.[/QUOTE]
Well, I would disagree with you there. Byzantium did serve to protect the West from Islamic invasion from at least one direction (and the Franks protected the West from the other direction). And unless you think all civilizations are equal - and I don't - I am glad I grew up in the one I did (Western) and not another one. See Hanson's latest book "Carnage and Culture" for the differences between Western and other civilizations (including Islamic) - then see if you think all cultures are equal.
Grifman
Quote I've lived to see the day that communism collapsed in Russia, now I only want to see one more thing...
[/QUOTE]
I too want the Greeks to have Constantiople back. The balkans and asia minor though are too culturally changed to allow the greeks to control them.
And anyhow I think the west learned that they should have supported Byzantium when Budapest fell and the Turks were knocking on the doors of Vienna.
------------------
If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg
Ckrisz:
Quote It wasn't like they were "protecting" Europe out of the goodness of their hearts or anything.[/QUOTE]
So what? The point, which is clearly lost on you, is that they were protecting Europe. And to say that no one in the Empire was doing it for spiritual reasons is tragic on your part.
Quote And barbaric? YOu do realize that for all of the Middle Ages, the Islamic world was far more civilized in pretty much every way you can think of than Europe?[/QUOTE]
Dream on, Islam-boy. Islam was the first religion which was established by conquering people of different faiths. The Europeans learned that crap from them. How's that for "civilized"?
takkran:
Quote Man a lot of greek suporters here.
They should know that they losed Constantinopol by their own fault. when they will accept this? for centuries greeks defended the city whith money but when they run out of it they faced the fact that did not know how to fight and greeks were destroyed by their own former mercenaries.
But it's not entirely their fault few european nations in that time could resist such a ferocios army.[/QUOTE]
How was it their own fault? They had been under constant seige for centuries. No Empire can survive constant warfare. The proof is in MTW. How well do you prosper when you are constantly at war?
Quote You greeks must accept that Constantinopol is lost forever you are now a small nation and pray that you don't angry the turks because you could lose as little as you have.[/QUOTE]
They once said that the communism was an unstoppable force and that in time, all nations would fall to it. How wrong they were. Get a life, Turkey-boy.
Grifman:
Quote And what would have happened to the millions of Turks living in Asia Minor? Outnumbering the Greeks, would the Greeks have made them citizens and given the right to vote? Or would they have expelled them - as was done by both sides in the war. Both sides expelled the other side - over a million Greeks had to leave Turkey and over 400,000 Turks had to leave Greece. Given that a continuing Greek population in Asia Minor only continued to provide an excuse for Greek claims to parts of the area, can't really blame the Turks for wanting them out.[/QUOTE]
That was the end result of WWI. The Ottomans were defeated and the treaty that was signed was that Greece would get the areas in question.
The explusions were not part of the deal and only occurred because of the Turks breaking the treaty and to avoid additional bloodshed.
Quote Greeks seems to think Turks were the only ones committing atrocities, but both sides were guilty of attacking and murdering civilians.[/QUOTE]
Who told you this nonsense? Of course both sides were guilty. Do your homework before you pass judgment on people.
Quote Both have been slaughtering each other for centuries. It's time to give it up and deal with each other like civilized nations. The past is done.[/QUOTE]
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The only atrocities against Turks occurred in the 1920's war. Yes, that was bad but nothing compared to what Turks did to people in their way for hundreds of years.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-17-2002, 00:29
I hear you brother Paladin!!!!
Even today the Turks keep commiting crimes in their war against the Kurds...using western armor no less.
And their trying so bad to get into the EU that they are trying to make Turky look less Islamic.
"And unless you think all civilizations are equal - and I don't - I am glad I grew up in the one I did (Western) and not another one. See Hanson's latest book "Carnage and Culture" for the differences between Western and other civilizations (including Islamic) - then see if you think all cultures are equal."
First off, when did I say that all civilizations were "equal?" Please feel free to quote me.
Also, I have read Hanson. He is a very good and innovative scholar, especially with his research on Greek phalanx warfare, but he also has a political axe to grind. That's fine and all, but CARNAGE AND CULTURE is largely an opinion piece, not a scholarly work. Hanson takes some battles and draws his conclusions from it, which is nice, but anyone else could take several other battles and draw totally different ones.
"And to say that no one in the Empire was doing it for spiritual reasons is tragic on your part."
So the Byzantine Emperors were protecting Western Europe for spiritual reasons? Not realizing this is tragic? Sorry, but that's both historically inaccurate and just plain funny.
"Dream on, Islam-boy. Islam was the first religion which was established by conquering people of different faiths. The Europeans learned that crap from them. How's that for 'civilized'?"
Sorry, but I'm not in the second grade. I'm not going to respond to name-calling.
As for Islam being the first religion to conquer other peoples, or gain power by conquering peoples --- perhaps you should read the Old Testament. You can then contrast Moses' treatment of the Canaanites with Umar's treatment of the Coptic Christians.
As for the whole Greek/Turkish thing --- I'm not even going to touch that. Suffice it to say that there was more than enough atrocities on all sides and that there's a lot more to be gained from cooperation rather than conflict.
Paladin i am no turkish boy. I live in a contry that suffered a lot in the past because of the turks but you should know that many greeks served turks very well and together they oppressed the other people in the balkans. And turks learned a lot of the stuff that made byzantines famos like corruption and all that. Turks may have a lot of defects but at least they are a lot more onest then greeks and they builded their empire by themselves not stealing like the greeks what roman legions conquered in the past. Enough about greeks look how they treat national minorities it makes me sick.
They are the real barbarians.
I will choose the winner (Greece vs. Turkey):
I know there are some pretty hot Turkish women so right now I'm leaning towards Turkey. Post pictures of Greek babes and then I can tell you if Greece or Turkey wins.
moldndecay
09-17-2002, 03:31
Man, what a rat hole. How does any of the above senseless bickering answer the mans question about the GAME? Umm... lets see... it doesnt.
[This message has been edited by moldndecay (edited 09-16-2002).]
moldanddecay
did i ask you something?
mind your own business.
moldndecay
09-17-2002, 03:44
Quote Originally posted by takkran:
moldanddecay
did i ask you something?
mind your own business.[/QUOTE]
takkran, I didnt remove your quote before I hit the submit, my bad. Wasnt directed at you specifically. Ive edited your quote out. Still, the question remains, how to defeat the Byz navy.
I play whith italians and i have the same problem whith the byzantine fleet. I mean that in every sea they have 6 to 8 fleets so all i can do is to attack them on land but i prefer peace for now.
Grifman said:
And what would have happened to the millions of Turks living in Asia Minor? Outnumbering the Greeks, would the Greeks have made them citizens and given the right to vote? Or would they have expelled them - as was done by both sides in the war. Both sides expelled the other side - over a million Greeks had to leave Turkey and over 400,000 Turks had to leave Greece. Given that a continuing Greek population in Asia Minor only continued to provide an excuse for Greek claims to parts of the area, can't really blame the Turks for wanting them out.
You said:
Quote That was the end result of WWI. The Ottomans were defeated and the treaty that was signed was that Greece would get the areas in question.
The explusions were not part of the deal and only occurred because of the Turks breaking the treaty and to avoid additional bloodshed.[/QUOTE]
Sort of true. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty with the Allies - but it no longer existed - the Turkish Republic did not sign the treaty and repudiated it. But none of your response deals with the issues and questions I raised. What were the Greeks going to do with all the Turks now under their rule? And the postwar treaty did not include Ankara or central Anatolia - so what were the Greeks doing invading that region?
Grifman said:
Greeks seems to think Turks were the only ones committing atrocities, but both sides were guilty of attacking and murdering civilians.
You said:
Quote Who told you this nonsense? Of course both sides were guilty. Do your homework before you pass judgment on people.[/QUOTE]
One, I wasn't passing judgement on anyone did I say anyone was wrong or evil? I was merely stating a fact. Two, who told me? Greeks did! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif There are plenty of Hellenic websites that go on and on about Turkish atrocities but never mention anything the Greeks did. Would you like some URLs? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Grifman said:
Both have been slaughtering each other for centuries. It's time to give it up and deal with each other like civilized nations. The past is done.
Quote Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The only atrocities against Turks occurred in the 1920's war. Yes, that was bad but nothing compared to what Turks did to people in their way for hundreds of years.[/QUOTE]
Who doesn't know what they were saying? I suggest you need some more Greek AND Turkish history. There were atrocities on both sides during the Greek war of independence, and further atrocities when during various Cretan rebellions against the Turks.
As to your last comment, evil is evil in God's eyes, whether it is one or a hundred.
Grifman
[This message has been edited by Grifman (edited 09-16-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Ckrisz:
[B]"And unless you think all civilizations are equal - and I don't - I am glad I grew up in the one I did (Western) and not another one. See Hanson's latest book "Carnage and Culture" for the differences between Western and other civilizations (including Islamic) - then see if you think all cultures are equal."
First off, when did I say that all civilizations were "equal?" Please feel free to quote me.[/quote}
Ah, but the implication of your response was that civilizations are equal. Apologies if that was not what you meant.
Also, I have read Hanson. He is a very good and innovative scholar, especially with his research on Greek phalanx warfare, but he also has a political axe to grind.
That looks to be an ad homimen without further explanation on your part. I could just as well state that his opponents have a political agenda also, could I not? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote That's fine and all, but CARNAGE AND CULTURE is largely an opinion piece, not a scholarly work. Hanson takes some battles and draws his conclusions from it, which is nice, but anyone else could take several other battles and draw totally different ones.[/QUOTE]
I suspect one could choose some "exceptions" to his "rule" but I don't think that would overthrow the general rule of his thesis, though I do find some parts overstated a bit. But you assert without any counter examples on our part . . .
Grifman
Nightweb
09-17-2002, 05:19
Heey, my ancestors were bodyguards in Constantinople, and we never received that last paycheck..
Can we file a complaint, or is it too late? =p
(Had a ancestor Viking who was down there.. =))
TexRoadkill
09-17-2002, 07:08
Quote Originally posted by cihset:
Yummy, nationalistic fueled posts, arguing about the superority of two "once great but now small and harmless" countries.
*gets popcorn*[/QUOTE]
It's almost better than picking on the French.
Grifman --- First off, I hope this discussion doesn't become a personal one, as I am not trying to turn it into one. So let's keep this aboveboard.
As for judging civilizations and cultures --- saying one is superior or not is ridiculous. Some civilizations are more advanced in certain ways than others, if you can even define what "European" or "Chinese" or God forbid "Islamic" civilization is in the first place. But saying that civilization DOES NOT EXIST outside of Europe is simply stupid. That is what I was saying.
As for VDH's political axe --- how is this an ad hominem attack? If I said VDH had the Secret Incest Vice, now THAT would be an ad hominem attack. The fact is that he writes for the National Review, an openly political magazine, as well as penning op-eds recently with clear political points in the WALL STREET JOURNAL and the WEEKLY STANDARD (another political journal). Both CARNAGE AND CULTURE and THE SOUL OF BATTLE were overtly political in nature, not to mention his new 9/11 book.
As for his opponents --- um, what opponents?
As for the original question, I've never had a problem with Byzant units of any type.
Naval battles are pretty easy. Just make sure you have more ships of an equal type --- and if you have worse ships, make sure you have at least two more. I've rarely lost any naval battle where I've outnumbered the opponent, and never with the Byzantine Navy (the Italians gave me much bigger naval problems).
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
Quote I hear you brother Paladin!!!!
Even today the Turks keep commiting crimes in their war against the Kurds...using western armor no less.
And their trying so bad to get into the EU that they are trying to make Turky look less Islamic.[/QUOTE]
Dude, excellent point. Check out Amnesty International, they have Turkey down as one of the most brutal abusers of human rights. http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/Index/EUR440402002?OpenDocument&of=COUNTRIES\TURKEY
EU? God help the Europeans.
Ckrisz:
Quote So the Byzantine Emperors were protecting Western Europe for spiritual reasons? Not realizing this is tragic? Sorry, but that's both historically inaccurate and just plain funny.[/QUOTE]
You didn't understand a single word, did you? You simply don't understand the Greek Orthodox philosophy and manifest destiny perspective of the Byzantines, do you? When you learn some more about it, come back and chat with me. In the meantime, I suggest you defer to those of us who have knowledge in this subject, otherwise you just look foolish.
Quote Sorry, but I'm not in the second grade. I'm not going to respond to name-calling.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are and yes you will. I will provoke you into it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Quote As for Islam being the first religion to conquer other peoples, or gain power by conquering peoples --- perhaps you should read the Old Testament. You can then contrast Moses' treatment of the Canaanites with Umar's treatment of the Coptic Christians.[/QUOTE]
Wrong again!! Judiasm was not established by conquering other people. Judiasm originated long before Moses came along and your lack of knowledge in this regard is stunning.
Quote As for the whole Greek/Turkish thing --- I'm not even going to touch that. Suffice it to say that there was more than enough atrocities on all sides and that there's a lot more to be gained from cooperation rather than conflict.[/QUOTE]
OK, fair enough but to say that Greeks somehow committed an equal amount of atrocities is simply incorrect.
takkran:
Quote Paladin i am no turkish boy. I live in a contry that suffered a lot in the past because of the turks but you should know that many greeks served turks very well and together they oppressed the other people in the balkans.[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about the Greeks that were stolen from their parents and forced into military service under the Sultan? You think the Greeks did that willingly? Are you kidding me?
Quote And turks learned a lot of the stuff that made byzantines famos like corruption and all that. Turks may have a lot of defects but at least they are a lot more onest then greeks and they builded their empire by themselves not stealing like the greeks what roman legions conquered in the past.[/QUOTE]
That's what we call, "kooky talk". Not one single thing you've said is correct. Aren't you embarrassed?
Quote Enough about greeks look how they treat national minorities it makes me sick.
They are the real barbarians.[/QUOTE]
You need mental help. Get it, then come back and apologize for your psychotic behavior, Turkey-boy.
I hereby grant you permission to beg my forgiveness.
DantepX:
Quote I will choose the winner (Greece vs. Turkey):
I know there are some pretty hot Turkish women so right now I'm leaning towards Turkey. Post pictures of Greek babes and then I can tell you if Greece or Turkey wins.[/QUOTE]
There are alot of beautiful Greek women but keep in mind that the Turkish girls are all basically descended from Greeks. I hate to say it but it's true.
Grifman:
Quote Sort of true. The Ottoman Empire signed the treaty with the Allies - but it no longer existed - the Turkish Republic did not sign the treaty and repudiated it.[/QUOTE]
That was entirely true on my part. The Sultan spoke for the people and as such the treaty was valid. The Greeks were encouraged by the Allies to takeover their newly granted territories but screwed the Greeks over and left them with no supplies. It's a long story.
Quote But none of your response deals with the issues and questions I raised. What were the Greeks going to do with all the Turks now under their rule?[/QUOTE]
I answered your question. They would continue to live in those lands. Or they could have moved into the interior of Asia Minor where Turkey was to continue to exist. The rest of Asia Minor was given to the Armenians and the Kurds. Sadly, both of those groups have suffered massively at the hands of the Turks. I guess their suffering doesn't interest you, does it?
By the way, what nationality are you and where are you from?
Quote And the postwar treaty did not include Ankara or central Anatolia - so what were the Greeks doing invading that region?[/QUOTE]
It was a war.
Quote One, I wasn't passing judgement on anyone did I say anyone was wrong or evil? I was merely stating a fact. Two, who told me? Greeks did! There are plenty of Hellenic websites that go on and on about Turkish atrocities but never mention anything the Greeks did. Would you like some URLs?[/QUOTE]
And there are plenty of Turkish websites that mention nothing about the atrocities that they committed or the ones they are currently committing so what the hell is your point? Obviously you're just taking shots at Greeks who have continuing issues with the fact that they had suffered greatly at the hands of the Turks. Why is that? What's your agenda here? Confess, Turk-lover!!
Quote Who doesn't know what they were saying? I suggest you need some more Greek AND Turkish history. There were atrocities on both sides during the Greek war of independence, and further atrocities when during various Cretan rebellions against the Turks.[/QUOTE]
Are you totally retarded?!! In a "war of independence", anything goes. The Greeks were trying to liberate themselves from hundreds of years of Turkish oppression and you label that as an "atrocity"?!! WTF is your problem? If someone invaded and occupied the U.S., let me tell you, there's nothing I wouldn't do to the occupying troops. Atrocities? I think not.
Quote As to your last comment, evil is evil in God's eyes, whether it is one or a hundred.[/QUOTE]
There's nothing evil about freedom.
I will pray for you now.
Nightweb:
Quote Heey, my ancestors were bodyguards in Constantinople, and we never received that last paycheck..
Can we file a complaint, or is it too late? =p
(Had a ancestor Viking who was down there.. =))[/QUOTE]
No, it's not too late. I'll tell you what: After we get back into Constantinople, I'll write you the check personally. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
The Emperor requires your services one last time. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. - Marin County newspaper's TV listing for The Wizard of Oz
[This message has been edited by Paladin (edited 09-17-2002).]
*shakes head*
Paladin, you're just a sad, sad case.
I guess my prayers for you went to waste. Would you like me to try again? I'm here for you.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-17-2002, 21:48
Belive it or not but during the Hight of the Ottoman empire , even in aISA minor the actual turks only made up 10% of the population..
The bulk of the people in the empire core were Balkan people raised as turks and deprived of their familys and home.
The bulk of these people where Greeks and Serbians.
There is not a whole lot of Turks in Turky.
Look , you give us Constantinople and all of Asia Minor and we will give you all of Cyprus..deal???? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
u want Istanbul, don't worry it is my city i'll give it to u, I own it seriously, I'll give it to u in one condition though, a trade. I'll give u guys Istanbul back, and u give me either ur mom or ur sister, whichever one is more attractive.
Also u say west stopped u from taking Ankara, come on dude, they ordered you to take ankara and end the new government and execute Mustafa Kemal, but Greeks ran back to Aegean Sea instead of running to Ankara, then they swam back to Athens.
But don't worry i know u guys hate us, bc you were under our occupation for 500 years, don't hate me for that it was my great granddaddy.
Just accept we better in fighting and stuff, and u guys are good at philosophy and all that.
history proves that since Malzikert not one defeat.
Even in our worst condition, after WW2 it took us 1 year, to get back what was ours.
I mean we took half of cyprus in one day.
U know i would have given all our lands to u , but too bad i have nowhere else to go. so to bad no deal.
Don't worry , when I Empereor of the West reclaim my empire I will do a sweeping invasion of the Balkans and Asia Minor and restore the Eastern Empire to it's orignal boundaries and to new found glory.
The Turks just don't seem deserving of Constantiople. It used to be a huge prospering city now it's just another 3nd world city. Same thing like Bagdad.
The Greeks did commit attrocites that were horrible enough for even the volunteer supporters from the west to grow disgusted and leave. But I'm pro Greece so I don't care. I think those 100,000 inhabintats of Constantople alone would cover good reason let's not forget what the turks did to the rest of the Balkans UGH.
But you see the glorious Empire of the West managed to stop the Turkish expansion, our role will soon be expanded to great glory like I said earlier.
------------------
If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg
cor blimey - all this talk of getting Constantinople back for the Greeks sounds like a load of Jews going off and starting a new country based around some ancient holy city just because they want to.
OK, bad example...but seriously, seriously?
do people really think that this could ever happen?
[This message has been edited by Whitey (edited 09-17-2002).]
Murad:
Quote Also u say west stopped u from taking Ankara, come on dude, they ordered you to take ankara and end the new government and execute Mustafa Kemal, but Greeks ran back to Aegean Sea instead of running to Ankara, then they swam back to Athens.[/QUOTE]
OK, that's even more retarded than anything else I've read in this thread. Dude, do your homework and read up on what exactly happened. Stop reading the propaganda that you got off some Turkish website.
The West encouraged the Greeks to go out and take over the territory but after a new Prime Minister got elected in Greece that did not suit the Western Powers, they cut off the Greeks with no supplies deep into Asia Minor. They had no choice but to retreat. That's fact.
Quote But don't worry i know u guys hate us, bc you were under our occupation for 500 years, don't hate me for that it was my great granddaddy.[/QUOTE]
I don't hate you at all. I think you're retarded but I don't hate you. Besides, my neighbors are Turks and they are the nicest people in the whole neighborhood so don't carry on with these ridiculous illusions that Greek people hate Turks. The young Greeks don't get carried away with nonsense like that like the older Greeks so chill out. And as for the older Greeks, you have to keep in mind that Turkish atrocities and land-stealing matters are still fresh in their minds so how can you blame them for being unhappy about what the Turks did?
Quote Just accept we better in fighting and stuff, and u guys are good at philosophy and all that.[/QUOTE]
Is that why the Janissaries were Greeks? Is that why in WWII the under-supplied Greeks kicked the Italians out of Greece into a quarter of the way into Albania? Seriously, dude, stop embarrassing yourself like that.
Quote history proves that since Malzikert not one defeat.[/QUOTE]
Again, you're wrong. The Seljuks collapsed and disappeared so stop with the kooky talk.
Quote Even in our worst condition, after WW2 it took us 1 year, to get back what was ours.[/QUOTE]
Ah, are you that dumb? The Turks didn't fight in WWII. Like cowards, you stayed out of it and let the real men fight the war. Have you no shame?
Quote I mean we took half of cyprus in one day.[/QUOTE]
Right, and with women and children as your only opponents, do you think you would have taken any longer? I guess you must be proud of the atrocities your troops committed in Cyprus, huh? How about raping innocent women and children? Was that something for you to be proud of? Yeah, you're a real man.
Quote U know i would have given all our lands to u , but too bad i have nowhere else to go. so to bad no deal.[/QUOTE]
One word: Turkostan. And I'm sure we can raise enough money to pay for your transportation. When would you like to go?
By the way, I live 45 minutes from you. Can we meet at the local Denny's on 1st street where I can clarify a few things with you?
Quote Originally posted by Ckrisz:
Grifman --- First off, I hope this discussion doesn't become a personal one, as I am not trying to turn it into one. So let's keep this aboveboard.[/QUOTE]
Ok, don't think I have been insulting or called you any names . . .
Quote As for judging civilizations and cultures --- saying one is superior or not is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Really? So if I say that a civilization based upon 1930-1945 Nazi Germany and Hitlerian ideals of racial supremacy and govt oppression is inferior to a culture based upon one of more or less equal opportunity and equality (and yes, they all had their own flaws) such as the US, England, France, Belgium, or Netherlands of the same time, then I would be incorrect? Surely you jest?
Are you saying it wouldn't have really mattered if Germany had won World War 2 and that there would be nothing wrong with a civilization based upon such a social and political ideal in comparison with those it conquered and replaced? I just want you to be perfectly clear about this http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote Some civilizations are more advanced in certain ways than others, if you can even define what "European" or "Chinese" or God forbid "Islamic" civilization is in the first place. But saying that civilization DOES NOT EXIST outside of Europe is simply stupid. That is what I was saying.[/QUOTE]
I would agree. However, I think you took the poster too literally. I suspect if you questioned him further he would agree that other civilizations existed - he was just happy that the Western one "was saved" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote As for VDH's political axe --- how is this an ad hominem attack?[/QUOTE]
You made an argument against his person, rather than his argument - hence the label "ad hominem". I don't think you have to be insulting to use an ad hominem argument - that is just the most common way.
"Ad hominem fallacies take a number of different forms, though all share the fact that they attempt to re-focus attention, away from the argument made and onto the person making it."
You dismissed his argument by saying that VDH had a "political axe to grind" without even providing any specific counter arguments or examples . . .
Quote As for his opponents --- um, what opponents? [/QUOTE]
Um, yourself . . . http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Grifman
[This message has been edited by Grifman (edited 09-17-2002).]
Quote That was entirely true on my part. The Sultan spoke for the people and as such the treaty was valid. The Greeks were encouraged by the Allies to takeover their newly granted territories but screwed the Greeks over and left them with no supplies. It's a long story.[/QUOTE]
No, not "totally true". The Ottoman Empire no longer existed. Hence any treaty signed by such an entity was invalid. In addition, the Sultan was not the legal head of any govt as he was not recognized by the new Turkish Republic. No country, no head of gov't, no treaty. It's that simple - at least for most people . . .
Quote I answered your question. They would continue to live in those lands. Or they could have moved into the interior of Asia Minor where Turkey was to continue to exist.[/QUOTE]
No, this is your first attempt to answer my questions and your responses are rather naive. Do you really believe that the Greek govt was prepared to make millions of Turks citizens and give them the right to vote in areas they conquered from the Turks if they had been successful? Or was ethnic cleansing more likely on the agenda? Please don't be so naive and try to foist such responses upon us.
Quote The rest of Asia Minor was given to the Armenians and the Kurds. Sadly, both of those groups have suffered massively at the hands of the Turks. I guess their suffering doesn't interest you, does it?[/QUOTE]
What part of Asia Minor. The Greeks were invading central Anatolia - didn't leave much room for the Turks after all the subtractions you were talking about. But maybe the Greeks weren't really concerned about that? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
No, not in this debate. The sufferings of the Armenians and Kurds is not the topic. If you wish to discuss that, then start a separate thread. But don't change the subject . . .
Quote By the way, what nationality are you and where are you from?[/QUOTE]
Why, it is irrelevant. Either I have the facts or I don't - my nationality is irrelevant. But so you don't whine anymore and use it as a smokescreen for your own lack of facts, I'm an American, English/German/Scotch-Irish, whose family has been here since the late 1600's. Satisfied?
So what's yours? Or does YOUR BIAS betray you? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote It was a war. [/QUOTE]
Oh, so that justifies everything. Good, just remember that when Turks use that excuse for their atrocities and massacres, "It was war". Will you accept it from them as easily as it rolls off your lips . . . http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote And there are plenty of Turkish websites that mention nothing about the atrocities that they committed or the ones they are currently committing so what the hell is your point? Obviously you're just taking shots at Greeks who have continuing issues with the fact that they had suffered greatly at the hands of the Turks. Why is that? What's your agenda here? Confess, Turk-lover!![/QUOTE]
Time to grow up and get over it, little boy. Yes, I'm taking shots at someone who, silly, boy, still thinks Constantinople should be Greek! That's absurd, it's been Turkish for hundreds of years now. Maybe Germans should be demanding the parts of Germany that went to Poland after WW2, or maybe Spain should reclaim Cuba, or the British should still be claiming all of North America, LOL!
Funny, I don't know any Turkish people personally, so calling me a "Turklover" is a bit silly and immature on your part - but based upon your language, mature debate doesn't seem to be one of your strong points. OOOh, you called me "Turklover"! I think I'll go home and cry! ROFLAMAO!
Quote Are you totally retarded?!! In a "war of independence", anything goes. The Greeks were trying to liberate themselves from hundreds of years of Turkish oppression and you label that as an "atrocity"?!! WTF is your problem? If someone invaded and occupied the U.S., let me tell you, there's nothing I wouldn't do to the occupying troops. Atrocities? I think not.[/QUOTE]
Call me retarded? LOL! Do you realize what you've done here, silly boy. Do you realize that Turks consider the 1920-1922 war against the Greeks as THEIR war of independence? Let me quote you again, "in a war of independence, anything goes . . ." Do you realize you just justified every Turkish atrocity of the 1920-22 war, every expulsion of a Greek family from their home, every massacre, every rape, the burning of Smyrna, the murder and mutilation of the Archbishop? Why - because every Turk can now say "in a war of independence, anything goes" - and a Greek told me so!
How intelligent - by your own words you showed that you are no better than those you condemn. What you used to justify your own atrocities can be used by your opponents to justify theirs. Congratulations for playing the part of the fool. You've made the point I was trying to make the whole time - and it's so nice when my opponent makes my point for me. Again, thanks . . .
Grifman
i'll meet u any time, dude tell me when and where,
by the way i meant WW1, and
i meant defeats by greeks or byzantines
Come you guys cool it.
I'm Austrian and want the Austrians to get back their beautiful empire too. But unfortuanatly that ain't gonna happen. Austria is now a shriveled rement of it's former glory. And this happened less than 100 years ago too.
I love greek culture so I'm baisd for them. I belive that Istanbul/Constantinople should go back to them. Asia minor should remain in Turkish hands now just because they've been so Turkeyed.
I also realize that the Greeks were conquered 500plus years ago but then again the greeks had been there for 1000s years before and have every right to be there. As for Asia Minor though the greeks truly lost that about 1000 years ago and the culture isn't quite like the culture in mainland greece. I know that greek settlements have been on the coast line there for 1000s years (Trogans etc) the Turks and Persians have also had settlements there also. Anyhow what does greece need Asia Minor for. There is no point to have a small foreign ruling class because that would result in the same cultural problems that have been occuring in Hungary for 100s of years.
Well I hope I haven't bored too many people with my rambling.
------------------
If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg
Grifman:
Quote No, not "totally true". The Ottoman Empire no longer existed. Hence any treaty signed by such an entity was invalid. In addition, the Sultan was not the legal head of any govt as he was not recognized by the new Turkish Republic. No country, no head of gov't, no treaty. It's that simple - at least for most people . . .[/QUOTE]
Look, you can make any kind of argument you want here but the fact is that the Sultan and his officers did represent the Turkish people when they signed the treaty. The Turk republic wasn't even established until latter so your argument is baseless.
Quote No, this is your first attempt to answer my questions and your responses are rather naive.[/QUOTE]
No, you didn't pay attention the first time and it's obvious that you simply can't understand the simple explanations I'm laying out for you. Now, try again.
Quote Do you really believe that the Greek govt was prepared to make millions of Turks citizens and give them the right to vote in areas they conquered from the Turks if they had been successful? Or was ethnic cleansing more likely on the agenda? Please don't be so naive and try to foist such responses upon us.[/QUOTE]
Please don't be so full of hate that you would assume that there would be ethnic cleansing when in fact nothing in Greek history suggested any such type of behavior. After Greek independence, Turkish citizens continued to live in Greece and were not killed so your assumption is based on your own crazed ramblings.
Quote What part of Asia Minor. The Greeks were invading central Anatolia - didn't leave much room for the Turks after all the subtractions you were talking about. But maybe the Greeks weren't really concerned about that?[/QUOTE]
Do your homework. The treaty is on the internet. The boundaries are laid out. It compasses areas that we know in MTW as Rum and part of Anatolia.
Quote No, not in this debate. The sufferings of the Armenians and Kurds is not the topic. If you wish to discuss that, then start a separate thread. But don't change the subject . . .[/QUOTE]
That is the subject. The fact that the treaty laid out a homeland for Kurds and Armenians is important. Now what about those Armenians and Kurds? You didn't answer my point. Shouldn't they have had a homeland as well or are you just a hardcore Turk-luster?
Quote Why, it is irrelevant. Either I have the facts or I don't - my nationality is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
True, but I would like more ammo. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Quote But so you don't whine anymore and use it as a smokescreen for your own lack of facts, I'm an American, English/German/Scotch-Irish, whose family has been here since the late 1600's. Satisfied?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, sure but just because you have a pro-Turkish perspective doesn't make history any different. Actually, I'm not even sure what the hell your point is in all this. Can you just make it and stop with the revisionist historical stuff?
Quote So what's yours? Or does YOUR BIAS betray you?[/QUOTE]
American-Eastern Roman. How's that?
Quote Oh, so that justifies everything. Good, just remember that when Turks use that excuse for their atrocities and massacres, "It was war". Will you accept it from them as easily as it rolls off your lips . . .[/QUOTE]
No, it doesn't justify anything. It's an explanation. War sucks (except for MTW). Bad things happen. What else can be said?
Quote Time to grow up and get over it, little boy. Yes, I'm taking shots at someone who, silly, boy, still thinks Constantinople should be Greek! That's absurd, it's been Turkish for hundreds of years now. Maybe Germans should be demanding the parts of Germany that went to Poland after WW2, or maybe Spain should reclaim Cuba, or the British should still be claiming all of North America, LOL![/QUOTE]
Listen doofus, all I said was it would be nice to see something that was Greek for 3,000 years become Greek again. Why is it a problem for you that I lament the loss of land that had been part of Greek heritage? I mean, what is exactly your problem? Seriously, you took a closing remark and went nuts over it. Heck, it wasn't even addressed to you yet you took it as an opportunity to tell us your version of history. Thanks, but no thanks, you're boring us.
Quote Funny, I don't know any Turkish people personally, so calling me a "Turklover" is a bit silly and immature on your part - but based upon your language, mature debate doesn't seem to be one of your strong points. OOOh, you called me "Turklover"! I think I'll go home and cry! ROFLAMAO![/QUOTE]
Who cares if you know one or not? I know several Turks and they are the nicest people in the neighborhood. So don't assume things like that because it just makes you look stupid and frustrated. But if you would take the time to research this issue you would find that the govt. of Turkey has been responsible and continues to be responsible for many atrocities.
Are you not aware of the fact that Amnesty International has them listed as one of the worst offenders of human rights?
Are you one of those people that deny the Armenian genocide ever occurred?
What about the rapes and murderers and land stealing in Cyprus by Turkish troops and the Turkish govt's. continued defiance of the U.N. resolution demanding the withdrawal of Turkish troops?
At least be honest here with us.
Quote Call me retarded? LOL! Do you realize what you've done here, silly boy. Do you realize that Turks consider the 1920-1922 war against the Greeks as THEIR war of independence?[/QUOTE]
OK, stop. Point to one reference where Turks consider that to be their "war of independence". I've never heard that. Besides, anyone can claim a war of independence for anything. The fact is that by treaty Asia Minor was divided and the Greeks were encouraged by Western powers to take that territory. Did the Greeks commit some atrocities while doing so? Yes, and I say that was wrong.
Quote Let me quote you again, "in a war of independence, anything goes . . ." Do you realize you just justified every Turkish atrocity of the 1920-22 war, every expulsion of a Greek family from their home, every massacre, every rape, the burning of Smyrna, the murder and mutilation of the Archbishop? Why - because every Turk can now say "in a war of independence, anything goes" - and a Greek told me so![/QUOTE]
That's plainly stupid. I never said rape or killing civilians was OK. Those are your deranged words. I'm talking about using every tool at your disposal in dislodging an enemy army. That's it. No civilians getting attacked.
Quote How intelligent - by your own words you showed that you are no better than those you condemn. What you used to justify your own atrocities can be used by your opponents to justify theirs. Congratulations for playing the part of the fool. You've made the point I was trying to make the whole time - and it's so nice when my opponent makes my point for me. Again, thanks . . .[/QUOTE]
You're welcome for being a complete idiot. You twisted everything I said and completely misunderstood even the simplest concepts. You're clearly an apologist for Turkish crimes against humanity and you should be ashamed of yourself.
I will now stop and pray for your immortal soul which will doubtless be burning in hell in a very short time. I'm your only chance of salvation so get your head out of your under-region and listen up.
Murad:
Quote i'll meet u any time, dude tell me when and where,[/QUOTE]
OK, what's the best way to reach you? Next time I'm down there, I'll let you know.
spmetla:
Quote Come you guys cool it.[/QUOTE]
Since I have respect for you, I will lay off responding to Grifman in kind with harsh words. If he wants to further this conversation with facts that's fine but I'm not even sure what his agenda is in making an issue of all this. Can you tell me?
All I said was that it would be nice to see Constantinople back in Greek hands and the guy went nuts over it.
Quote I'm Austrian and want the Austrians to get back their beautiful empire too. But unfortuanatly that ain't gonna happen. Austria is now a shriveled rement of it's former glory. And this happened less than 100 years ago too.[/QUOTE]
While Austria is not the land-mass giant it once was, it is a beautiful country with a rich heritage and the Austrians are responsible for stopping the Turks at the gates of Vienna. For that, Europeans should be thankful. Too bad they weren't around alot earlier to help the Byzantines stop the Turks in Asia Minor. That would have been quite nice.
Quote I love greek culture so I'm baisd for them. I belive that Istanbul/Constantinople should go back to them. Asia minor should remain in Turkish hands now just because they've been so Turkeyed.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I would like to see Eastern Thrace, which includes Constantinople back in Greek hands. Sadly, the best chance Greece had was in 1922 and that opportunity was lost.
Quote I also realize that the Greeks were conquered 500plus years ago but then again the greeks had been there for 1000s years before and have every right to be there. As for Asia Minor though the greeks truly lost that about 1000 years ago and the culture isn't quite like the culture in mainland greece. I know that greek settlements have been on the coast line there for 1000s years (Trogans etc) the Turks and Persians have also had settlements there also. Anyhow what does greece need Asia Minor for. There is no point to have a small foreign ruling class because that would result in the same cultural problems that have been occuring in Hungary for 100s of years.[/QUOTE]
True.
Quote Well I hope I haven't bored too many people with my rambling.[/QUOTE]
Not at all. I appreciate your voice of reason. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
obviously this type of post must serve a therapetic use for some nationalistic wounded pride.
It also proves that it's quite worthless to try to convince people that for emotional reasons will not open up to other people point of views (Isreal/Palestine anyone?).
I find this type of rambling disconforting. The main issue really is to have a more stable, democratic Turkey that makes more efforts to acknowledge some of its sins, and not 'giving' Constantinople back to Greeks or whoever.
By the way Grifman, I can only say you are wasting you time trying to educate an emotionnaly retarded teenager. God knows I liked Greece (spent 5 months there working) but this nationalist streak is just too much.
man, telling the whole story one sided:
first of all u guys should have defended cyprus with more troops, if u were gonna murder hundreds of turks, we needed to help them.
Ottoman empire was one of the most tolerant empires of the time. Ask that the jews, who refuged to Istanbul, after entire world rejected them. Ask them how ottoman sultan helped them that they are I mean Israel is one of our best friends.
If we were blood thirsty barbarians, why did we let the center of the orthodox church survived in Istanbul. Why is is still open nand functional. WHy are they free, go there and take a look, better then listening to stories.
Why is ur last names still survive, unlike u guys are changing turks there now, we didn't touch nobody's dignity. And families tried hard to give their sons to Janissary core, bc it was the best place to be in those times.
And all that bs about kurds, dude I am kurdish decent, and nobody hurt me in turkey, and my father became a high office holder. It is just propoganda , like u told about my views. It is all relative I guess.
Look at paletine under Ottoman rule, jews chritians, muslims living in harmony for 300 hundred years, look at that , now it is all messed up.
I am not saying they were angels, but Ottoman Empire wasn't harsh at all like u guys are describing.
I apoligize to all forumers , but these guys are badmouthing my country all post, i had to say something.
Every empire tried to conquer, still does, what makes us different. It is in the past.
One more thing, any part of Turkey, u want to get, u have to pass through 70 million Turks, we stopped you guys once with not much in our worst condition thanks to one great man, Ataturk, who was born in today's Greece ironicly, we can surely do it again.
But i don't think u guys will do such nonesense, some of u guys here don't represent all Greeks i hope for the sake of both our people.
But u guys are welcomed to visit, come on to Istanbul, great city
Great museums, like Hagia Sophia, a museum now, u can drink tea looking at bhosporus, and doo lots of fun things. I own it anyways, nobody will hurt u. But don't say anything bad about their soccer teams Galatasaray, Fenerbahce, Besiktas. Then they might hurt u , I can't even save u then.
I won't post anymore about this, as long as u guys shut up, and there is nothing to answer. If u guys start badmouthing again the i may.
Look at this bc i try to type so fast, some words are missing. Like I meant Palestine.
Funny Greek people cook well, i got this restaurant here on De Anza blvd. It is called Yiasso, it is quite good. GYros, we call it doner, it is hella nice, u guys should try.
Going back to oringinal reason of this post, not badmouthing turkey,
u can kill byzantine navy by having more ships then they have. But be careful bc too many baggalas will slow ur nazy down, so have lots of Dhows weaker but faster.
maroule, since you were unable or unwillingly to read all of my posts, let me summarize for you:
I just made a passing comment that it would have been nice if Constantinople would be back in the same hands that had owned it for 3,000 years. That's it. Then some people jumped all over for me for that because I merely expressed my opinion.
The reality is that I have nothing against Turkish people. I have friends who are Turkish. But I do have a problem with the Turkish govt. and its' continuing human rights violations. And so does Amnesty International.
That's it.
Now, if you disagree and think that Turkey does not torture prisoners and violates their human right, hey, that's your opinion and you have a right to it. But please don't try and pretend as though it's fact.
We need a little more tolerance around here and alot less anger and hatred.
I admit that I lost my temper with Grifman and made some harsh remarks. If Grifman is still reading, I want him to know that I didn't mean to make this personal and hope he can overlook it and move on.
I hope that clarifies my point a bit more.
Murad:
I'm not going to take up time responding to your points because they are so far out of whack with history that I don't think I'll even be able to get you to keep an open mind.
If you think parents in occupied Greece willingly gave up their kids to Janissaries, you really have been reading the wrong history books. Perhaps something written by authors outside of Turkey might do much to open your eyes to what really happened in that instance.
By the way, when I said I wanted to get together with you to clarify a few things, I didn't mean so I could kick your butt. I meant to get some lunch and chat about the game and stuff. Are you open to it? If so, I'll let you know when I get down there.
turken00
09-18-2002, 22:42
Unbelievable.. truly unbelievable. Almost everytime I look at Medieval forums, I see a bunch of Greeks turning it into some kind of anti-Turkish thread. They complain that we are barbarians... we "stole" their lands from them... and so much other stuff I can't keep track anymore. These Greeks just WHINE so much.. its unbearable, I don't even want to visit these forums anymore, if you Greeks want to have a good, healthy political debate, then talk in a civilized manner. Unfortunately, all you guys do is whine, and complain like little girls. Hahaha its also funny how you think Istanbul should be yours, and that it is a "third world city." Maybe after you graduate from elementary school, you can take a trip there. You will see that its much more modern than Athens in almost every possible way. I read another person saying that Greece will trade Cyprus for Istanbul.. hahahahaha... If we want, we can take Cyprus anytime, We don't need Greek permission, our military has outclassed you in every possible way for the past 1000 years. So you guys can complain all you want, but keep in mind, that your nation has always remained secondary in world affairs compared to Turkey, and will continue to do so. You can always whine about history, about our barbaric "atrocities." Let me remind you that every nation in history has made such mistakes in the past, even Greece. If you disagree, then wait until you grow up to a suitable age and study world history or something. I just find it sad that Greeks have been so brainwashed over the years that all they can think of is something anti-Turkish. I have nothing against Greeks, nothing at all, in fact I respect their history, but when a Greek comes and insults my country.. then, there's a problem. I'm very glad that politically our two countries are developing good relationships.. in fact, we even might get to host the 2008 European Championships together, who knows. This is the difference between most Greeks(not all)and Turks. We look at the future... while all you do is dwell on the past.
turken00:
Quote They complain that we are barbarians... we "stole" their lands from them... and so much other stuff I can't keep track anymore.[/QUOTE]
Ahhh, the Ottoman's did and the TR stole Cypriot land from both Greeks and Turks. It's a part of historical fact so trying to cover it up like the Armenian genocide won't fool anyone.
Quote ...if you Greeks want to have a good, healthy political debate, then talk in a civilized manner. Unfortunately, all you guys do is whine, and complain like little girls.[/QUOTE]
How can you expect us to speak "civilized" when you wallow in the gutter with your "hate speech". I know you want to muzzle people like you guys do in Turkey but this is a free speech forum so give up your attempts at stopping open debate.
Quote Hahaha its also funny how you think Istanbul should be yours, and that it is a "third world city."[/QUOTE]
Istanbul is a third world city. That's the opinion of people who have been there and have been shocked by the filth and poverty. I'm sorry you can't face the facts.
Quote Maybe after you graduate from elementary school, you can take a trip there. You will see that its much more modern than Athens in almost every possible way.[/QUOTE]
You're the only person who has ever said anything like that. I know people who did a tour of Athens and Istanbul and they all agreed that Athens is far nicer than Istanbul.
Quote I read another person saying that Greece will trade Cyprus for Istanbul.. hahahahaha... If we want, we can take Cyprus anytime, We don't need Greek permission,..[/QUOTE]
Ah, you already did. Haven't you kept up on the news since 1974? But if Turkey tries to take the rest of Cyprus, it would be a bad scene for them since the Greeks would be ready this time.
Quote ...our military has outclassed you in every possible way for the past 1000 years.[/QUOTE]
Wrong again. You lost the war of independence in the 1800's and you got your butts kicked in the Balkan Wars in 1912. So what are you smoking over there?
Quote So you guys can complain all you want, but keep in mind, that your nation has always remained secondary in world affairs compared to Turkey, and will continue to do so.[/QUOTE]
Another twisted dream of yours apparently? Turkey is hated by so many nations because of the horrible and cruel violations of human rights. Too bad Turkey can't slaughter anymore Armenians, huh?
Quote You can always whine about history, about our barbaric "atrocities." Let me remind you that every nation in history has made such mistakes in the past, even Greece. If you disagree, then wait until you grow up to a suitable age and study world history or something.[/QUOTE]
Greeks were never involved in the genocide of millions of people so again, you're wrong.
Quote I just find it sad that Greeks have been so brainwashed over the years that all they can think of is something anti-Turkish. I have nothing against Greeks, nothing at all, in fact I respect their history, but when a Greek comes and insults my country.. then, there's a problem.[/QUOTE]
Nobody was insulting your country. You're mistaken.
Quote I'm very glad that politically our two countries are developing good relationships.. in fact, we even might get to host the 2008 European Championships together, who knows. This is the difference between most Greeks(not all)and Turks. We look at the future... while all you do is dwell on the past.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with that last comment. I visit a Turkish website and it's filled with anti-Greek stuff and how glorious Turkish history is the way they crushed other nations. So, you need a wake up call to reality, and I hope this is it.
Uhh, this is the only thread I've read on these forums with a Greco-Turkish debate. I don't what magical threads your reading that make you not want to come here.
------------------
"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"
"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg
Yes, this is the first for me as well...
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Paladin you said you are "eastern roman"?
What have you in common whith the romans.
Do you know that in greece today lives the real descendants of the romans?
You like to call them vlachs or cutzo-vlachs although they call themselves aromanians.
Not so long ago one of them was arrested in Athena because he was speacking his own language on the street.
Although they are hundreds of thousands ( we could never find their true number because greeks in the good old byzantine fashion like to fake the things they do not like)
they don't have the right to learn in their own language. but even worst they are afraid speaking in public in the aromanian language. This aromanians are the real eastern romans not
the greeks, and that is a fact. you speak to much for a man who speak only garbage Did i forget to tell you that the aromanians lived a lot better under the turks although aromanians are christians(orthodox).
When i said that greeks stoled their empire i was true. When the roman empire split the eastern part of the empire consisted of roman conquered teritories (you cannot argue whith that, but what i know, you are the father of history, herodot will be proud of you) Greeks treat their own minorities in the same way no mater what they are (bulgarians, macedonians or albanians) I read in some place, don't remember where, that when greece became independent in athens albanians were more than greeks, but that thing soon changed.
Officially they do not recognize any minorities.
so the eastern roman empire, like we see from its name, was roman in time the greeks, who liked to rule, took the power.
the result we know: the empire became weaker until it colapsed.
Correct me if i am wrong: constantin build in the place of Byzantium a new city Constantinopole, Constantin was a roman emperor so the romans build it and not the greeks so if anybody should clame the city it must be the romans or theyr descendants. Even the Hagia Sofia was builded by an emperor of roman origin and not a greek one.
I also said that greeks opressed the other nations inside the ottoman empire. I can tell only for my contry what happen.
In the 18th century turks considered that local princes should not be trusted. After the last two princes and their families was killed in istambul, greeks was placed instead. what happened after this was a disaster that even today we can see its marks. The greeks proceed from an istambul district called fanar ( i think is the place where fenerbahce playes today)
This greeks were not of noble origin they were merchands and money lenders ( allthough some of them used to take names like Cantacuzino) They bought the throne ussually by lending money from others money lender so the first thing to do was to recover their money and to gain some profit ( a greek will sell his own mother for money, at least this is an oppinion about greeks some people have) after all their reign were very short- an year or two before another greek manage to
gather some money to buy the throne or to gather some fake proofs of betrayl although a fanariot( greek prince) never tried to betray his turk master. What did the greek princes while they were in charge:
--they disbanded the local army ( they used for themselves greek mercenaries)
they destroyed the fortresses or in some casses they putted in them turkish troops.
The most rich monasteries ( who used to have many lands) were given in administration to the Athos mountain greek monastiries ( in the athos mountains are a some beautifull monastiries built by kings from my country but "in the good greek democratic way" they are today greek and they even have changed names and now the greeks are proud of them and showing the whole world what grate people are the greeks
the truth about this is that after the fall of constantinople many greek monasteries survived because of the help recived from the princes of my country who was in the 16-17 century the only ortodox country, except for the russians, that was autonomous) . So the greek princes put in other monasteries, of my country, greek monks that were thrown away ( not for their good behavior) by the turks.
What happened to the local monks? Some of them builded new monasterys.
--they bringed whith them other greeks and put them in administration instead of local nobles. ( You must remind that they were backed by the turk army who at that time was still very strong).
--they increased taxes so much that even today when taxes are growing the people say: " It's like in time of the fanariots" They put taxes even for the smoke from the chimney.
--nothing was build during their reign in the country and i mean stuffs like palaces or churches or monasterys they had no time for that the only thing they wanted was plunder
Not only that during 100 year in which greeks ruled was nothing build but what they found when they came, like the royal palace from the capitol city was destroyed i wander where they lived i think in hotels http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif after all they were not staying for long.
But the worst thing was that during that era my country lost provincies that even now are under foreign occupation. this was not enyirely their fault but of another greeks who occupied a great position in the ottoman empire( great dragoman) something like foreign minister because turks in that time do not learned foreign languages and they used greeks in foreign affairs
In 1772 austria annexed a part of my country after bribing the big dragoman Costache Moruzi(greek)
In 1812 after the war between russia and the turks Dumitrache Moruzi( also dragoman, also greek) hided a letter recived from Napoleon in which the sultan was informed not to make peace whith the russians because he intended to attack them, but Moruzi was bribed by the russians so the turks made peace whith the russians and my country losted another part.
Thanks god that in 1821 a revolution put an end to this. The head of the revolution was betrayed and killed by this allies greek army of alexandru ipsilanti ( supported in secret and trained by the russians )who tryed to eliberate greece.
this is the history that my people lived and still live in this land and not some nationalistic bullshit like paladin said. i know greeks are revengefull but you con see that for yourselves from this thread.
In the end you (paladin) still call me a turkey boy although i allready told you i am no turk and have nothing to do whith them but i see that you cannot understand this. in my country we call people like you jackass.
Some greek fanariot famillies that ruled in my country: caragea, sutzu, moruzi, mavrogheni, ipsilanti, hangerli, giani-ruset, mavrocordat.
I bet paladin is getting an orgasm by iust thinking that istambul will belong again to greeks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I need information on something,,
so like Byzantines are Greek,,
I thought they were eastern Roman Empire,,,
It would be nice if somebody enlightens me on this,,
Paladdin, my email is muratgungor6@yahoo.com, so u can contact me there, if u want to come together and all.
I think this is going way off topic maybe we should move it to off topic forum.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-19-2002, 04:58
True Rome conquerd the greeks.
The thing is , only a few latin romans ever lived in the East...The eastern empire was greek from the begining.
The greeks outnumberd latin romans...and eventually LAtin romans started speaking greek and the culture changed.
But if we want to go realy earliin time...all i can say is the would be no Roman empire if the Greeks had not colonised Italy and brought civilisation to the Latin barbarians.
After that the Romans did a great job http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
AS for the Byzantine navy...resistance is futile http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Dear Emperor http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I will belive you whith one condition, if you give me another exemple of empire in who the conquered people "was from the begining" the ruling class. I mean after romans fought they said: what the hell this greeks are more smarter then us and also more beautiful http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif lets give them the whole empire http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The fact is that greeks are very cunning.
I wonder why the turks did not make the same gift to the greeks as the romans did http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif or why whith time the ottoman empire did not turned into a greek empire like the roman empire did?
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-19-2002, 10:34
because by the time of the ottoman empire ,religion has become the fuel of nations.
The young religons where very unlike the old.
And greeks (among others)actually did basicly run the Ottaman empire.
From the Janasseries to Court officals.
Another example of of a people conquering another and the simply let them run themself would me mongols and the chinees.
After the mongol overan china they gradualy started to be absorbed into the chinees culture.
Quote In 1772 austria annexed a part of my country after bribing the big dragoman Costache Moruzi(greek[/QUOTE]
We Austrians don't see anything wrong with that http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
The Byzantine Empire was Eastern Rome. The Emperor Constantine moved the capital of Rome to Byzantium and renamed it Constantiople. When he died he split the empire into two for both his sons which also was to make the empire easier to manage. When the Western Empire collapesed in 476 the Eastern part was still very much in tact. Seeing as Rome was no longer a part of the empire the Eastern Romans were now referred to the capital City Byzantium, they didn't do some crazy name like Constantioplium would just seem stupid(in my opinion, made up fact there too). This is were Byzantium was born, it was the same Eastern Empire but it changed names. THe ruling class of the Romans had for centrues been slowly absolved into the Greek culture that by the time the West fell the Eastern half showed few signs of being Latin. The Eastern Half prospered until the late 600s. During this time and until the fall of Constantiople the Greeks continued the Roman traditions of architechture, war, fleets and such. They greeks certianly didn't steal the empire they sort of already had it when the West fell. During the 600s the Empire had been involved with a series of wars with Persia. One of the wars lasted for 20 years and drained both of the empires of most of their manpower and well equiped troops. Just after the end of the war the arabs emboldened by the prophet Mohammad they set out to conquer. The Arabs were extremely succesful because of the weak state that Persia and Byzantium was in. Soon Persia had been conquered and the majority of the Byzantium mediteraen was lost. During these events the Empire fought the Arabs which continued the loss of their good troops. This continued up until the late 1000s. Then the emgerence of the Turks from the East spelled doom for the already hard pressed Imperial Army. It is at this point that the Empire had to begin relying heavily on unreliable mercenaries. These mercianers formed the backbone of the Imperial Armies. The lack of professional troops is the primary reason that the Byzantines lost the major battle of Manzikurt(I think that's the name, don't wanna do a check right now). This sudden loss of was when the majority Asia Minor had been lost to the Turks. Then the bit with the Crusades starts. What the Empire did manage recover they couldn't use for the purpose of recruiting new troops because of the total devastation that 20 years of Turkish rule along with the Scorched Earth policy of the Turkish retreat. Instead the money was needed to buy more mercaneries to protect the newly acquired land along with trying to rebuild the infrastructure. Then you guys should know the history from there.
MY POINT HERE: The Greeks didn't STEAL the empire from the Romans because they were the Romans in a certain respect. The fact that the Greeks were in charge is most certainly no the reason that the Eastern Empire was in decline. It was the bad timing of foreign invasions along with the gradual wearing down of their proffesional troops, which most certainly couldn't be prevented under the situation that they were in.
Please stop making things up, the fact that you live there doesn't mean that whatever you say is true. And trying to convince a Greek that the Greeks were better off under foreign rule is just plain bull. The minorities were suppressed? Yes they were but the Turks were in no respect at all treating their minorities better. This is true up to the modern day and is why the world considers Turkish humaniterium efforts almost as much of a joke as Chinese humaniterium efforts.
Sorry again for my rambling, and pardon my spelling it's late here. Just I dislike seeing facts being twisted and distorted to suit one's unjustified needs.
------------------
"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"
"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
http://www.boomspeed.com/luftwaffle/NewSig2.jpg
Rosacrux
09-19-2002, 12:56
Good post buddy, I think it gets some of the previous heat off.
In addition, the Turks called the Greeks "Romans" and that has survived right into the modern Greek language as "Romios", another way of saying "Greek" (or "Hellinas").
To those who remember the empires with sentiments of nostalgia: The "pali me chronus me kairous, pali dika mas thanai" (as a rough translation: "In time, those (lands) shall be once again ours") is quite a silly thing to say and should be abolished from our culture.
Yes, those lands have been Greek for nearly 3000 years, but now they ain't. And we have to live with it.
"Ok, don't think I have been insulting or called you any names . . ."
Didn't say that. What I did say was that I didn't want this discussion to degenerate into that, as they often --- see Paladin and the Greek and Turkish nationalists comparing their respective levels of idiocy.
"Really? So if I say that a civilization based upon 1930-1945 Nazi Germany and Hitlerian ideals of racial supremacy and govt oppression is inferior to a culture based upon one of more or less equal opportunity and equality (and yes, they all had their own flaws) such as the US, England, France, Belgium, or Netherlands of the same time, then I would be incorrect? Surely you jest?"
Your definition of civilization is much more narrow than mine. Nazism is a political ideology that springs from a cultural civilization, not a civilization in and of itself. Nazism is a natural outgrowth of certain aspects of European civilization at that stage of its development, as well as Marxism, feudalism, and parliamentary democracy. There are obviously positive and negative aspects of any culture.
"I would agree. However, I think you took the poster too literally. I suspect if you questioned him further he would agree that other civilizations existed - he was just happy that the Western one 'was saved'"
I just go by what he wrote. If this was true, he would correct it.
"You made an argument against his person, rather than his argument - hence the label 'ad hominem'. I don't think you have to be insulting to use an ad hominem argument - that is just the most common way.
You dismissed his argument by saying that VDH had a 'political axe to grind' without even providing any specific counter arguments or examples . . ."
I gave examples of his writings in political journals and in opinion pieces that had obvious political implications. If this doesn't show a political agenda, I don't know what does. As for specific examples from C&C and SOUL OF BATTLE, I took both out of the library quite awhile back, so I don't have exact examples on hand.
If your point is that Western culture is superior to all others --- VDH doesn't say this either in C&C (though he would definitely agree with you). I would certainly disagree because my own definition of culture and civilization (as opposed to political ideology) can't really be categorized this way. Western culture is the result of layers of different cultural influences --- classical Rome and Greece, Persian, Arab, medieval European, Christian ---- and is just as radically influenced by the social structure which supports it.
spmelta
i am sure you do not see anything wrong when stealing others people ancestral home.
this is about education. You see in the world are nations, who for hundreds of years and dozens of generation, fought
for freedom, for the right to be independent, to use their own languages in administration and thet the wealth that resulted from their work to remain to them
and not to go to the capital of the oppressors ( thats how austrians build for example the buildings in Vienna they are so proud of today, whith the blood and sweat of oppressed peoples like
ukrainians, serbs, croats, polish.... the real austrians made few of the population of the austrian empire so such a small nation could never build a great city for themselves) The sons of the subjugate nations
fought and died for the glory of the habsburgs and what they recived in exchange- only humilliation. We all know what happened when the oppressed nations were allowed to choose: the Austrian empire crumblled
whithout any traces or regretes except from the two nation that ruled it. May it rest in peace.
And there are nations that seems to never be content whith their country ( the same things whith the thieves they are never content whith what they have, they want what others have.) they want more. they like to subjugate and to rule other nations they like to be called masters.
Look how different are behaveing the USA, they have the power to conquer any country they want, but they are glad whith what they have. Is another thing whith the european greed. i wander what could happen if some of the europeean nations have this power instead of the americans.
It is kind of a surprise for me to see that the austrian thirst for foreign lands is not dead You spmelta shoul be shamed by your attitude you must read some of your own history to see what dirty metods you used to enlarge your empire.
I see that you did not understanded what i wrote in my previous reply. Where did i said that the greeks were better off under foreign rule?
And you must understand something THE MINORITIES ARE PERSECUTED NOW in greece and not in the past. You could at least search the web for vlachs or other greek minorities if you don't belive me
In the end one great man, don't remember which, said:
WHEN SOMEBODY SAY THAT HE BECOME RICH BY WORKING, YOU SHOULD ASK HIM QUICKLY FROM WHOS WORK.
The same thing you should you ask when a man tell you how great is his nation, you should ask him: on the pain of what nations was this greatness builded.
Sorry for my english i hope that you understand what i wanted to say.
Yeah I know the Austrians were never that good as rulers. I realize the Austrians were beaten and lost their empire due to their own well imcompetence.
I'm sorry for misunderstanding your post then. For all or most of the modern day happenings in Greece or Turkey I'm fairly ignorant of what's been happening so until I do more reasearch of recent events and the current situation I'll be sure to not make comments about the present day. Seeing as the historical context as been more than well established I feel no need to participate until I have done considerable research of the present day. Expect to see my respones in a few days/weeks.
Roger Wilco over and out http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
------------------
"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"
"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
Quote Yes, those lands have been Greek for nearly 3000 years, but now they ain't. And we have to live with it.[/QUOTE]
Right and without addrsssing all the incorrect information from the posts above, the point of my inital comment was that it would be nice to see Constantinople in Greek hands again. That's it. Since when is dreaming a crime?
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-20-2002, 08:25
ahh takkran European greed and American Justice.
Yes america can take any country (exept russia ,india, china and the EU)
but they are content with what they have????
Not watching the news latley eh?
I stand with Paladin on this.
It would be nice , maybe we can make it the requierment to enter the EU...since the Turkish government seems to be willing to do anything to get in http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Quote Look, you can make any kind of argument you want here but the fact is that the Sultan and his officers did represent the Turkish people when they signed the treaty. The Turk republic wasn't even established until latter so your argument is baseless.[/QUOTE]
No, since the Ottoman Empire no longer existed as a legal entity, there was no one to hold to the treaty - they legally represented a govt - not a people - govts are legal entities, not people. The Turkish Republic was not bound by any decision made by the prior non-existent govt. The Turkish Republic effectively seceeded from the Ottoman Empire - it was not the same entity, any more than the Confederate States were bound by a treaty signed by the United States.
Quote Please don't be so full of hate that you would assume that there would be ethnic cleansing when in fact nothing in Greek history suggested any such type of behavior. After Greek independence, Turkish citizens continued to live in Greece and were not killed so your assumption is based on your own crazed ramblings.[/QUOTE]
In their march towards Ankara the Greek army engaged in numerous atrocities, burning Turkish villages, murdering civilians, raping women. Those are documented facts by foreign observers. I can provide names and dates of the the actual reports if you care -and actual quotes from them.
And, yes, there were still Turks living in Greece, as there were Greeks living in Turkey - but both oppressed and discriminated against the other , and over the years there had been massive immigration back to their respective homelands. Both were guilty. And given Greek behavior towards Turks during their occupation of parts of Asia Minor, I don't expect many Turks would still want to be around. And I really doubt Greece was ready or prepared or willing to assimilate millions of Turks living in Asia Minor as citizens. Anyone who believes that is naive.
Quote Do your homework. The treaty is on the internet. The boundaries are laid out. It compasses areas that we know in MTW as Rum and part of Anatolia.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I've seen it - and have done more homework than you have. So what was the Greek army doing invading central Anatolia which was well outside of their zone of occupation? Would they really have withdrawn from Ankara after capturing it?
Quote That is the subject. The fact that the treaty laid out a homeland for Kurds and Armenians is important. Now what about those Armenians and Kurds? You didn't answer my point. Shouldn't they have had a homeland as well or are you just a hardcore Turk-luster?[/QUOTE]
No, that isn't the topic. The topic is how Greeks ignore their own atrocities against the Turks while lamenting the atrocities committed against themselves. Armenian and Kurdish sufferings are not the topic. But to allay your concern, I do think they should have gotten their own homeland - but that is hardly relevant to Greek atrocities against the Turks. One does not justify the other - so why do you keep bringing up Turkish crimes when I bring up Greek ones. Do you think one justifies the other? If not, then why bring it up?
Quote Are you not aware of the fact that Amnesty International has them listed as one of the worst offenders of human rights?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but hardly relevant to Greek atrocities against Turks in 1920-22. Irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
Quote Are you one of those people that deny the Armenian genocide ever occurred?[/QUOTE]
No, I do believe such a wicked crime was commmitted, and the Turkish govt should come forward and admit it, but it doesn't justify Greek atrocities towards the Turks in 1920-22. Irrelevant to the topic being discussed.
Quote What about the rapes and murderers and land stealing in Cyprus by Turkish troops and the Turkish govt's. continued defiance of the U.N. resolution demanding the withdrawal of Turkish troops?[/QUOTE]
Do you not understand? Nothing the Turks did, do, or will do is relevant to the fact that during the Greek invasion of Turkey in 1920-22 Greeks committed atrocities against the Turks. Greek atrocities are NOT excused by Turkish ones. And if you say they don't justify Greek atrocities, then quit bringing them up - they aren't relevant.
You claim to pray for my soul as a Christian (presumably) at the end of this post, but your justifying Greek atrocities by pointing to Turkish ones is hardly a Christian act. Try praying and reflecting on that fact - do you think God is going to accept that excuse from any guilty Greeks when they face him?
Quote OK, stop. Point to one reference where Turks consider that to be their "war of independence". I've never heard that. Besides, anyone can claim a war of independence for anything. The fact is that by treaty Asia Minor was divided and the Greeks were encouraged by Western powers to take that territory. Did the Greeks commit some atrocities while doing so? Yes, and I say that was wrong.[/QUOTE]
Good, some progress here. First off, read some history from a Turkish perspective and not Greek and you'll see what Turks think http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Just because you haven't read it, or don't think it's the right description doesn't mean much - it wasn't your nation fighting for it's existence at the time - that will do something for your perspective http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif And now since you have conceded the point I was making, I guess we are about finished.
Quote That's plainly stupid. I never said rape or killing civilians was OK. Those are your deranged words. I'm talking about using every tool at your disposal in dislodging an enemy army. That's it. No civilians getting attacked.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you did, quit plainly. Maybe you didn't mean it, but when I mentioned Greek atrocities against Turks in the Greek War of Independence your EXACT response was "in a war of independence, anything goes . . ." Therefore I will accept your latest statement as a recanting of this statement. You now appear to be moderating your stance a bit http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Quote You're welcome for being a complete idiot. You twisted everything I said and completely misunderstood even the simplest concepts. You're clearly an apologist for Turkish crimes against humanity and you should be ashamed of yourself.[/QUOTE]
First off, I didn't twist anything. YOU said "anything goes", I didn't. Secondly, I am not an apologist for Turkish crimes, as that is not the topic and as I have clearly indicated above in responses to your specific questions.
Somehow you confuse my attribution of atrocities to the Greeks and my condemnation of them as my being accepting of Turkish crimes. Apparently your logic fails you because one does not logically follow the other. I can and do condemn both sides here - but you are not defending the Turks but the Greeks - so debating Turkish crimes with you wouldn't be much of an issue now, would it? But until your latest change, you appeared to be an apologist for Greek crimes. So who should be ashamed?
Quote I will now stop and pray for your immortal soul which will doubtless be burning in hell in a very short time. I'm your only chance of salvation so get your head out of your under-region and listen up.[/QUOTE]
As a Christian myself, I think you would be wise to abstain from your self righteousness. In the New Testament Jesus rarely condemned anything or anyone more than the Pharisees and their attitude of self righteousness. I also believe that Jesus is my only hope of salvation, not someone as presumptuous as you. Given your attitude and your certainty of my final destination, I really doubt that your prayers will have any impact on where I end up.
Grifman
Dark_Magician
09-20-2002, 15:14
Turks could defeat bizantines attackin en masse, cannons they've managed to buy. But no one sold them ships, so there was not possible to cover unerdevelopment
As for TURKS vs GREEKS, it was WEST who backstabbed Byzantium in the first place, dearly weakening them so they could barely stand against hordes. That foul, primitive half-barbarians who didn't even wash thmselves and ate with hands
Good luck about that time mongols took a toll of their own in the east so keeping the enemies preoccupied for a while. But the fate of Byzantium was decided
Errr ...
With the rise (well, sort of *g*) of the EU and sooner or later including Turkey (human rights problem, even if they are so nice today, they do a lot of bad marketing), this becomes a moot point imho.
I work for a multinational company in Europe. I live in Germany, I work some of my time in Austria and Benelux, and I go to France for trainings. So what is your point ? I could not care less of Italy or Honolulu "owned" Berlin, as long as I can live the way I like in this country, or group of countries.
Well al that said, give me back my bavarian king !!! *g*
Grifman sounds quite wise.
Isn't it weird how in the game the Turks played by the AI usually get wiped out very quickly. It's stupid and historically wrong.
The only way I've seen the Turks fare better is through mods. Still kinda a pisser though that you need to make them historically accurate.
Anyone else notice that we seemed to have scared to starter of this thread off http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"
"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-21-2002, 03:41
Looks like the DEvs are Greek http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Anyhow the past is the past and now we got the EU http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Watch out World
Quote Originally posted by Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
[B]ahh takkran European greed and American Justice.
Yes america can take any country (exept russia ,india, china and the EU)
but they are content with what they have????
Not watching the news latley eh?
[/QUOTE]
If USA will attack irak this has nothing to do whith territorial expansion, you must understand that americans are affraid that a madman whith enought power and deep hate against USA ( it could be the case of sadam) can do things more worst that 11 september.
I think that america is affraid of an atomic attack. A terrorist whith an attomic bomb can destroy the entire NY. And i do think USA at this moment can defeat any country in the world even russia.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-21-2002, 06:58
Aha....First they took NAtive lands , then they took Mexican land , then SPanish colonies and then they started to think that they had the bloody right to stick their nose in other lands (just like imperial europe)
uuhhhh A madman who is a danger to the world.
You know , besids the Americans and Saudi nobility i dont think much of the world gives a shnuck about sadam and his "Weapons of mass destruction"
Its just Bush turning attention away from home (economic and social security issues )and spreading that nonsence of a world tyrant as dangerus as hitler http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Using the Fear of American people after 9/11 for economic and military expansion abroad is just plain sick.
But no more of that...this is about Byzantinum and OttomanTurks here and to go to the roots of this...
In history the Byz navy allways kickd the turks arse as did the Venitian navy and the Spanish and the Maltis navy
Quote Originally posted by Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
Aha....First they took NAtive lands , then they took Mexican land , then SPanish colonies and then they started to think that they had the bloody right to stick their nose in other lands (just like imperial europe)
uuhhhh A madman who is a danger to the world.
You know , besids the Americans and Saudi nobility i dont think much of the world gives a shnuck about sadam and his "Weapons of mass destruction"
Its just Bush turning attention away from home (economic and social security issues )and spreading that nonsence of a world tyrant as dangerus as hitler http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Using the Fear of American people after 9/11 for economic and military expansion abroad is just plain sick.
But no more of that...this is about Byzantinum and OttomanTurks here and to go to the roots of this...
In history the Byz navy allways kickd the turks arse as did the Venitian navy and the Spanish and the Maltis navy[/QUOTE]
Maibe you are right. after all the turks are coming from a mountainous area. The greeks, italians and other old mediterranian nations have thousands of years of seafaring tradition so they must have "kicked the turks arse".
But i still don't know what happened whith the byz fleet on 29 may 1453.
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-21-2002, 07:53
Ah i can tell you http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
During the Siege the Byz navy did manage to keep the upper hand to the end , first because of the Byz ship design which was much superior to most Navies at the time and their long naval history.
Anyhow after the Walls of Constantinople where breeched and the city was about to fall , the Byz navy along with the Italian ships started taking refugies(among them 300 byz soldiers , the resat perished to the last) from the city on board and fought their way out.
This way most of the LAte Byz navy was intact even after Byzantium was vanqiushed.
Some i think remaind with the Venetians as Mercenaris others became Raiders wreacking havoc on Turkish shipping.
Grifman
Quote No, since the Ottoman Empire no longer existed as a legal entity, there was no one to hold to the treaty - they legally represented a govt - not a people - govts are legal entities, not people. The Turkish Republic was not bound by any decision made by the prior non-existent govt. The Turkish Republic effectively seceeded from the Ottoman Empire - it was not the same entity, any more than the Confederate States were bound by a treaty signed by the United States.[/QUOTE]
You're just trying to manuever your own around this without actually understanding what I'm saying. Sure the Turkish Republic wasn't bound by anything the Sultan did but, and read this carefully, the Turkish Republic was not set up until AFTER the "war of liberation". So the war was actually in violation of the agreement that the Turks signed. Why you keep ignoring that is very peculiar considering the historical evidence that you can find on any Turkish website.
Quote In their march towards Ankara the Greek army engaged in numerous atrocities, burning Turkish villages, murdering civilians, raping women. Those are documented facts by foreign observers. I can provide names and dates of the the actual reports if you care -and actual quotes from them.[/QUOTE]
I already knowledged this to be true, As the Turks did for centuries themselves. Sometimes people take bad lessons and then forget what they were fighting for in the first place.
Quote And, yes, there were still Turks living in Greece, as there were Greeks living in Turkey - but both oppressed and discriminated against the other , and over the years there had been massive immigration back to their respective homelands. Both were guilty. And given Greek behavior towards Turks during their occupation of parts of Asia Minor, I don't expect many Turks would still want to be around. And I really doubt Greece was ready or prepared or willing to assimilate millions of Turks living in Asia Minor as citizens.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Quote Yes, I've seen it - and have done more homework than you have.[/QUOTE]
LOL. How do you know how much homework I've done? Let's just say I did more but you're a close second. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Quote So what was the Greek army doing invading central Anatolia which was well outside of their zone of occupation? Would they really have withdrawn from Ankara after capturing it?[/QUOTE]
What was the U.S. Army doing invading Nazi Germany? That's where the war was. What are you doing invading Tyrolia when you didn't even want to be there? You were forced into invading to stop the war, right? Same thing.
Quote No, that isn't the topic. The topic is how Greeks ignore their own atrocities against the Turks while lamenting the atrocities committed against themselves.[/QUOTE]
Who ignores them? I've never met one single Greek that ignored them. Apparently you don't know many Greeks.
Quote Armenian and Kurdish sufferings are not the topic. But to allay your concern, I do think they should have gotten their own homeland - but that is hardly relevant to Greek atrocities against the Turks. One does not justify the other - so why do you keep bringing up Turkish crimes when I bring up Greek ones. Do you think one justifies the other? If not, then why bring it up?[/QUOTE]
I'm bringing it to show you the consequence of having left Turkey intact and that the war in the '20's would have had a more positive impact on the people of Asia Minor if the Greeks had won. Do you doubt that? Do you doubt that Christians winning would have been better than the Muslim's winning?
Quote Yes, but hardly relevant to Greek atrocities against Turks in 1920-22. Irrelevant to the topic being discussed.[/QUOTE]
It's relevant to Turkish atrocities. Sorry but you're not in charge of setting the discussion. You're the one that brought up the Greek atrocities but you're unwilling to discuss Turkish atrocities? How is that being fair and balanced?
Quote You claim to pray for my soul as a Christian (presumably) at the end of this post, but your justifying Greek atrocities by pointing to Turkish ones is hardly a Christian act.[/QUOTE]
I'm not justifying any such thing. Why are you missing this point? I'm explaining to you why things happened the way they did. Can you understand the difference?
Quote Good, some progress here. First off, read some history from a Turkish perspective and not Greek and you'll see what Turks think[/QUOTE]
I told you already that I have, and that I visit a Turkish forum where Turks discuss history and politics all the time. Sadly, these people are living in the past and spend alot of time in anti-Greek, anti-Armenian, anti-Kurd, anti-EU, and sometimes anti-U.S. rhetoric. So stop repeating the same nonsense over and over.
Quote Yes, you did, quit plainly. Maybe you didn't mean it, but when I mentioned Greek atrocities against Turks in the Greek War of Independence your EXACT response was "in a war of independence, anything goes . . ." Therefore I will accept your latest statement as a recanting of this statement. You now appear to be moderating your stance a bit[/QUOTE]
Just because you misunderstood what I said originally doesn't mean I'm moderating what I said. "Anything goes" means that bad things happen on all sides. These things can not be justified. But understanding what happened is not the same thing as agreeing with those things. That's the difference.
Quote First off, I didn't twist anything. YOU said "anything goes", I didn't. Secondly, I am not an apologist for Turkish crimes, as that is not the topic and as I have clearly indicated above in responses to your specific questions.[/QUOTE]
The mere fact that you brought up the whole "Greek atrocities" stuff and you refuse to discuss Turkish atrocities makes me wonder what exactly you're trying to accomplish here. If you're trying to say Greeks committed atrocities in that war, then so what? We already know that. But when I mention to you that the Turks did the same and worse for hundreds of years, including in that war, you seem entirely disinterested. Yes, two wrongs don't make a right but at the same time you have to "understand" why things happened the way they did. In doing so, it doesn't mean that the crimes were OK.
I seriously hope you understand what I'm telling you this time because I'm getting tired of repeating it.
Quote Somehow you confuse my attribution of atrocities to the Greeks and my condemnation of them as my being accepting of Turkish crimes. Apparently your logic fails you because one does not logically follow the other. I can and do condemn both sides here - but you are not defending the Turks but the Greeks - so debating Turkish crimes with you wouldn't be much of an issue now, would it? But until your latest change, you appeared to be an apologist for Greek crimes. So who should be ashamed?[/QUOTE]
That's nuts. I never apologized for Greek crimes. I was trying to explain to you why they happened. That's why I brought up Turkish crimes but you keep insisting that those crimes are "irrelevant".
Quote As a Christian myself, I think you would be wise to abstain from your self righteousness. In the New Testament Jesus rarely condemned anything or anyone more than the Pharisees and their attitude of self righteousness. I also believe that Jesus is my only hope of salvation, not someone as presumptuous as you. Given your attitude and your certainty of my final destination, I really doubt that your prayers will have any impact on where I end up.[/QUOTE]
Jesus also mentioned that you should remove the log from your eye before looking for one in my eye. If you're going to bring up Greek crimes then you should be prepared to deal with Turkish ones as well. Only then can you understand why things happened the way they did.
And the truth is that I believe that if the Greeks had not committed those crimes in that war, God would have given them what once belonged to them. So for having veered from the Faith, they paid the price of losing Constantinople once again.
Quote Originally posted by Emperor Theodoripiklos IV:
Looks like the DEvs are Greek http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif[/QUOTE]
Actually, after Manzikert, the Byzantines were still a very powerful force. But that battle greatly demoralized them and they never used their forces confidently again. I mean, when the Crusaders took over the region of Palestine (not the city), they did so with only a handful of men. Something that the Byzantines could have done with great ease. But at that time, the Byzantines were in a "seige mentality" so they were unable to mentally commit themselves to expanding the empire.
While the Seljuks were strong at first, they quickly lost their cohesive structure and their military was never a truly organized and efficient fighting force. With any real motivation, the Byzantines could have won any conflict with the Seljuks. That's the missing ingredient. And in MTW, you as the player have an over-abundance of that. That's why it's easy to wipe out the Turks.
Quote Anyhow the past is the past and now we got the EU http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Watch out World[/QUOTE]
Yes, so in a sense, the Greeks conquered Europe once again. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Give them a few years and the Greeks will be running the EU, then they can change the name of it to the "Byzantine Empire" and that will make it, mission accomplished. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Emperor Theodoripiklos IV
09-21-2002, 21:49
Agreed Paladin http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
Though it must share power with germany http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
And the mighty Austrians too. So the captial will be ...oh...Vienna? or Innsbruck?. So Europe will be divided into Germany, Austria and Byzantium. I reserve Italy, The northern Balkans, the czech and slavik republics along with hungary for Austrian domination.
Gues Germany can have France and Poland...again. And greece gets the rest of the Balkans and Asia Minor. Now the real problem do the Greeks even want to step into the mess known as Israel...ugh.
You can all guess where my capital city is in the game. InnsBruck!!! My hometown.
Remeber I'm only one Austrian, the rest of the country is a bunch of peace loving hippies now. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
------------------
"samishika wa nai shitte irukara saigo wa itsumo hitori to"
"I'm not lonely Because I know I'll be Alone at the end"
email me at: Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.