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Ironsword

01-22-2008, 15:52

Upon returning home, weary and defeated, the least those brave men deserved was a bed. Instead they found the Grand Vizier at the castle gates. "Sieze them!" He bellowed. The bewildered men slowly raised their weapons one last time...

I have progressed to hard settings recently and came across civil wars and the like. While it was a fresh experience it was a bit galling too. (I've MTW VI vanilla)

I was playing as the Byz and had a solid Empire (Poland through the Crimea to Turkey and Antioch) I had the most men and was the most advanced. The King's reputation had fallen due to the Khan wars I was having with the golden horde. I'd held off a massive 3,500 army at a pitched bridge crossing and then another 2000 strong army which left my main stacks depleted, I had a smaller scale battle at Odessa, which I lost, and another minor defeat in Antioch. To my utter despair this seemed enough to spur some of my generals to desert and rebel. It destroyed the empire completely. I sided with the rebels and chose to retain my northern Empire as my own. It was fun, and I want to crush all the turncoats, although it is 1326 so may not get the chance... I kind of like an old fading Empire breaking up though!

Any other experiences to share on the topic?? Ways to avoid or turn to advantage?

I of the Storm

01-22-2008, 16:03

Avoid: try not to lose too many battles in a row.

I don't think there are really advantages to this, apart from the fact that you get to fight lots of fun battles, lots of challenging battles and probably lots of tedious battles too.

I'm not such a big fan of civil wars in my own empire. Going through them once or twice is nice and a fun experience, but that's about it. I do however like them happening to other people...:yes:

Innocentius

01-22-2008, 17:52

Recently, I had a nice experience of civil war as the Armenians in Early. I finally managed to take Antioch (after being on the defensive against the Eggies for two decades) and started building it up (I know going south isn't too smart playing as the Armenians, as you end up between both the Eggies and the Seljuks). Anyway, after a few years, the expected counterattack came. I won, but at a high cost. Next year, the Seljuks decided to invade the lightly defended Armenia (I could only afford one army). I retreated to the castle with my king.

Then a civil war breaks out, leaving my king alone in his castle and all three princes (that's 75% of the royal house of Armenia) with a depleted army in an underdeveloped province. I decided to stick with the loyalists, since I realised all was lost anyway, and just a year after that, the Seljuks stormed my castle and the Eggies wiped out the remaining rebels in Antioch.

Jxrc

01-22-2008, 18:57

Martok

01-23-2008, 07:17

Happened to me a few times but nothing huge (usually it was due to the absence of an heir and the "royal general" fighting for the throne).

Worst thing that happened to me was in a Sicilian campaign. Was about 1260 and I had all of Italy, Spain, North Africa and large part of France. Decided to build crusades in Normandy and created several markers. Chapter house was destroyed by and earthquake (lucky me ...) and one marker was destroyed. Enough prestige to avoid rebellion. Next turn, second marker disappear (Why on earth do they no all disappear in one turn ? Perhaps because you can only have one crusade going, and thus failing, at the time ?). Result: civil war. Side with the rebels who retained Normandy so that the following turn another marker was lost !!! Hurray !!! Second civil war in a row. Ended up with a one star king proud owner of Malta, Sicily (with tow units of peasants and a bloody huge stack of rebels in Naples), Provence, Corsica and Genoa ... I have stopped the game after a few more turns ... which was so silly of me since I lost the pre-chapter house destruction auto-save...:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
....And that's precisely why I usually only build Crusade/Jihad markers as I need them. Too risky otherwise. ~;)

Civil wars can be a great way to shake up a game, particularly if your faction has reached the point of "critical mass" (where you're so big and powerful that you know it's only a matter of time before you win the game). They can also be an effective way to get rid of a weak faction leader, or even the whole royal family (if they all stink).

Of course, civil wars also tend to be more fun if you deliberately instigate them, as opposed to having them occur due to unfortunate (and/or unplanned) circumstances. I've purposely started civil wars as the Danes, the Norwegians (in XL), the French, the Eggies, and the Byzantines, usually with pretty good results. Sure, I lose half my territory at first and had to fight to gain it all back -- which isn't always possible, as other factions often will nab some of your provinces that have now become "rebel" -- but I still find it's usually worth it in the end. There's nothing like a few years of constant campaigning against your erstwhile brothers to bring vigor to your (new or existing) royal family. ~D

Martok

01-23-2008, 07:19

By the way, welcome to the Org, Ironsword! Make yourself at home. :medievalcheers:

caravel

01-23-2008, 13:48

Back in the days when I could still play the game (or any D3D game for that matter!) civil wars were always one of my favourite features.

Just at that point where your faction is large and bloated and the game has begun to get dull. An unhinged loon of dubious parentage sits on the throne, you take a look at his stats... and can't see any. It's time for a good old civil war to "refresh" the empire. Back the rebels and take the risk. Then concentrate on taking back the rest of your former provinces before your rivals get their hands on them.

Civil wars can also be orchestrated by you to change the royal family. That is to say that you can shape the outcome to a certain extent. A good method is to choose a leader and ensure that this mans loyalty divebombs. Stripping his title and sending a few 0 valour spies in to try him for treason can help (but don't overdo it!) then launch a few failed invasions or (cheesey method) build some crusade or jihad markers then demolish the chapter house. Be completely ready before you do this however. Ensure that all of the loyal generals are isolated and in a position where they will have to fight the disloyal ones. Any provinces held by only a loyal general will most likely go straight over to the rebels without a fight, this is why your men need to be in there before the war breaks out.

:bow:

Jxrc

01-23-2008, 15:32

....And that's precisely why I usually only build Crusade/Jihad markers as I need them. Too risky otherwise. ~;)

And that is now that you tell me !!!! :beam:

Makes now a lot of sense to me now but that really something I had not seen coming .... :whip: :whip:

The "chapter house being smashed by an earthquake" bit happened to me once a few months ago after many years of playing (was never silly enough to build crusades in a provinces adjacent to another faction or that could be invaded by sea)and building several crusades was something I did quite often (near 1205, wants to get all the crusades GA points, build five crusade and loads of troops, send first crusade, assault castle the next turn and repeat - I am sure you get the drill) .... Probably been a little lucky until then but once you have 20 provinces you need some bad luck to have you chapter house destroyed by an earthquake during the sensitive period (about 25 years including build-up) since you need to have an earthquake that targets the "wrong" province and manages to destroy the "wrong" building ... Even if the odds are favourable, I agree 100% that it sucks big time in the worst case scenario (and in MTW waste matter from the bowels does happen :yes:)

. Civil wars can be a great way to shake up a game, particularly if your faction has reached the point of "critical mass" (where you're so big and powerful that you know it's only a matter of time before you win the game). They can also be an effective way to get rid of a weak faction leader, or even the whole royal family (if they all stink).

If I can understand the first point (basically artificially recreating a challenge), I never saw an opportunity to apply the second. Either you have already reached the "critical mass" and it does not matter if your king is a complete failure since you probably have then enough good generals to do the fighting (so that a civil war can be just started for the challenege of it but is not required) or you have not in which case I cannot see how you could afford a civil war (unless you want your game to be extremely hardcore stuff, something like start with a faction, build crusade ASAP, destroy it and "start" the game with just a few provinces).

Only time I started a civil war on purpose was when I had a 55 year old king with no heir at all and one single royal general that was about to die sooner or later ... Send the king to conquer Ireland and it made the trick (in my first few games sending the king to attack Ireland had caused me a few surprise before I could figure out the problem ....)

Martok

01-23-2008, 18:13

And that is now that you tell me !!!! :beam:

Makes now a lot of sense to me now but that really something I had not seen coming .... :whip: :whip:
If it's any comfort, that was exactly how I suffered my first civil war as well. I was playing a Spanish campaign, and had built five (yes, five!) Crusade markers in Leon -- I'd intended on using them all against the Almohads -- only to have the Chapter House there destroyed by an earthquake. Bam! Instant civil war. Caught completely off-guard and flat-footed, I ended up losing the game because of that. :wall:

Needless to say, I never built that many Crusade/Jihad markers at one time and in one place again.... ~:rolleyes:

If I can understand the first point (basically artificially recreating a challenge), I never saw an opportunity to apply the second. Either you have already reached the "critical mass" and it does not matter if your king is a complete failure since you probably have then enough good generals to do the fighting (so that a civil war can be just started for the challenege of it but is not required) or you have not in which case I cannot see how you could afford a civil war (unless you want your game to be extremely hardcore stuff, something like start with a faction, build crusade ASAP, destroy it and "start" the game with just a few provinces).
To be honest, I'll deliberately start civil wars *any* time I have a weak ruler with no decent heirs, so long as I have 1-2 royal generals floating around. I've even triggered civil wars when I wasn't that big -- I won't hesitate to do it, even if I only have 4 provinces! It obviously makes the game tougher (indeed, sometimes it's caused me to lose a campaign), but I like to roleplay that sort of thing. :yes:

Musket

01-24-2008, 20:48

I had a civil war not long back, when the campaign on my total war actually worked. I was playing as England, I had taken over Wales, Ireland and Scotland, and I was seeking to expand my empire onto the continent. So I amassed about 8,000 men at what would be Dover, sent them across to Calais and after a long and bloody war, I took France, never losing a battle.

But, for the war I had to raise extra soldiers. At the time I had something of a standing army to keep the peace in the British Isles of about 1,500 men, but I had to raise far more men if I were to wage war with France. So, I had to raise taxes. And I had to keep the taxes up, to maintain a navy which blockaded France while the army took over the country. Once I had taken France, I upped the taxes in all of my new provinces and I had to raise troops yet again to dissuade any rebellion in my new province.

Basically, people back home started getting a bit hacked off with all of the taxes, and the empire broke up into a civil war. However, luckily, a lot of my generals were married to my princesses, and so none of them revolted. Instead, my army fought over 20 battles in the civil war, losing only 2 of them. Eager to join the revolt, the French also reappeared with one of their exiled princes leading a small army. However, their lack of discipline and experience caught them off guard, they were fighting an army at home which had fought against the Welsh, Irish and Scots, so had at least 1 years campaigning under their belt. The revolt in France was easily crushed, they were facing an army with almost 20 years of combat experience.

Another civil war I can recall is one that divided the Holy Roman Empire. I raised a huge army to invade the Almohad territory of Spain, but I failed on one critical objective; combat training for my men. The Almohads had been at war with Spain for around 20 years, and they had a very experienced army. I had expected a quick victory, but I was proven abysmally wrong. The army was repulsed from Spain with heavy losses, and we began trading the provinces of Aquitaine and Southern France for years on end. Finally, I came to the decision that I wasn't going to win, so I had to shorten my supply line.

Experienced troops, like Spearmen were coming from the eastern fringes of the Empire, so they weren't getting to the French provinces in time. I gathered up all the men I could, from garrisons and forts and from the army on the front line and planned to evacuate them to my province of the British Isles. There I could produce fearsome Highland clansmen, and the deadly Welsh longbowmen. With a shorter supply line, I could get thousands more troops to the front line faster. I enacted a scorched Earth policy, destroyed all the forts and any buildings in the province's main city then began the evacuation.

While it was taking place however, half of the army defected, including my intended destination of the British Isles. The English and Hungarians reappeared also, siding with the rebels. I came to the conclusion that the campaign was hopeless, so I simply rounded up my men and fought till my empire was brought down. But it took the Almohads a total of 42 years to bring the empire to its knees, and cost them thousands of troops.