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insolent1
10-04-2002, 00:30
The Polish Struggle

I have only managed to finish one campaign so far as the english. I've played the following factions all on expert early period Spainish, Danish, English, French & Italians. I will finish all these games once the patch comes out to sort out the savegame problem. I was the most powerful faction in all of these games by early 1200's. So I decided I would try the high period for a change.

So I had a go at the Polish(they remind me of the a cross between the Shimazu clan no money & the oda clan surrounded but rebel provinces to be got quickly). First off I would like to say that this faction is without a doubt the hardest faction I have played yet. To begin with you get an absoulutely terrible royal line. I have only had 1 heir that I can actually use as a general & he spawned with rank 2, he is now rank 6(I did get a rank 6 heir but he was a coward). No good ship captains(I noticed on expert no matter who you play you get very few good captains but the polish get none). You start off with only 2 provinces Silsea & Poland & you also start off with a lower tech then most others example Russians,italians & hungarians get citadel & you only get a castle. There is also only one special unit for the Polish and they can only be produced in Poland and since they can only be produced in Poland the province should have been given a +1 to valour for Polish Retainers.

Polish Retainers
Without a doubt my favorite medium cav. They have an irrestible charge & have excellent morale & when you get that cathedral built in poland they are almost unstoppable. So far I have found that they out perform feudal knights in most situations and they are cheaper plus the support costs are great compared to knights. They have allowed me to experiment with cav tatics a lot more & I have yet to see them route(they fight to the death). This unit in my opinion is the best asset for the polish.


Starting position
Its a tough one as you are surrounded by bigger/more highly teched factions but you have access to a lot of rebel provinces quickly.


Resources
Virtually none http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Poland will give you about 700 florins a year with 60% agric built & a good governor(So far I have found it extremely difficult to get any good acumen units compared to other factions eg I have 16 provinces & only 3 have governors).

On my first attempt I took pomerania first(big mistake) & was doing OK for about 50 years then everything started going wrong. So after rethinking my first few moves I have come up with a good strategy for the polish. Here are the 4 things that worked best for me:

ALLIANCES are essentially useless and I have played a campaign as the Italians where I only ever had 1 ally(the Papacy) & noticed no real difference between the campaigns when I made tried to make allies. But as Poland I've accpeted all that where offered & only seeked 2 the Hungarians & the Papacy. The Hungarians wether allied or neutral have never attacked me & I have left Poland without a garrison for long periods of time 10+ years.

MORALE is essential as every single battle I have fought as the Polish I have always been heavily outnumbered. So if u get a heir that has a good rank & any bad morale vices use him as cannonfodder. Feudal Sergeants come with 2 morale as standard compared to the chiv's coming with 0 so I have found the feudal sergeants to be indisspensible, these act as the backbone of my army & they have a better attack compared to chiv's.

RELIGION is without a doubt a really great card to play as the polish(even tough you don't get crusades). I build churchs & monasteries in all my troop producing provinces & I also have 2 strategic unit producing provinces. All my generals suffer from extremely low piety & have loads of negative piety vices. So put bishops & cardinals(when u get them) with all your generals as inquisitors will have a field day on your generals. Something I noted from all my other camapigns with other factions is that I trained all my grand inquisitors on Polish & hungarian generals, heirs & kings.

SUBTERFUGE is essential as the Polish as you won't get miltary supremecy till much later in the game compared to other factions(this is due to one factor you will not be able to tech up as you could with other factions). Build a tavern & build some Assassin's quickly. Train them every turn(I have 1 6star, 2 5stars & I need more) only go for 0 valour strategic pieces(& only go for the ones that are in the sitting position as they are really spying & are less likely to move). You will need the high valour assassins for keeping your generals safe from inquisitors. Spys are needed in numbers. Use them with bishops(put the bishops in a few years ahead of the spys) & you get christian revolts that often join your faction & you can get some very good units from these & maybe even a good general. Build border forts everywhere as the place will soon be crawling with assassins.

MISER is the best way to go as the Polish you really have to knuckle down to keep teching up.
With other factions I found that I was able to assign a province for archer, a province for spear, a province for religion and so on and you could get all these started in the first few years. But with the Polish you can't do that as you only start with 2 provinces & have a very low income & once your army swells you start loosing money fast. Use your heirs in battle as these guys suck up money especially when there are a few of them early on in the campaign & they will be crap so they might aswell die with honour fighting hordes of pesants. Don't rush to build ships as trade will only be a small supplement to your income for a long time.


Strategy

The main thing to do at the start is to get lithuania as this is teched up to castle & has spear & archer guilds & you will be able to produce Lithunanian cavalry later on(they are nearly as good as the polish retainers & cheaper than knights). So first move is to take Prussia with all your units from Poland with your king who will become one of the greatest generals in history & will eventually die. You will have to take Lithiania in the first 3 moves before the Russians get it. Max tax in prussia to create a revolt every turn for the next couple of years & crush them with your king till you get a general rank 2 or above to take over make sure he has no bad morale v&v's as he will be facing hordes. The revolts will be made up of approx 1500 pesants & fanatics. Your king and his unit of RK's will chew these for breakfast example
Battle
Line up your very small army, mine consisted of King, 2 PR's, 1 spear & 1 feudal sergeant with your king in centre. Deploy close to enemy spawn make sure there are no forests around or your cav might be in trouble. Charge the general with your king send spear & FS to protect his flanks & send the 2 PR's on the outer enemy flanks. Your king will kill the general really quick & the whole army will fold, get as many kills/captives as possible as this will increase their valour( I have mountains of screenshots from these battles they are hilarious)
Repeat as many times as you want till the catholic precentage goes to about about 40% after that you will face better troops & worst of all spearman which happen to kill your mighty cav

The revolts also supplemented my income for 10-15 years with most earings from confiscated land 2226Florins
Be careful not to get a revolt in lithunania as it will be made up of better troops. I was lucky & took it in 2 turns without a fight as the rebels where attacking Kiev. But its very important that you get Lithunainia & end the seige as you need another troop producing province that is already semi teched quickly. Do not waste money bribing armies as all the surrounding rebel provinces aren't worth it & its much better to keep tryin to save money for when you need it. Arbalests are needed(must have) for beating the Russians as you will face hordes or horse archers. Stay in forests when he has loads & just have your arbalests returning fire. I haven't bothered even teching up for pasive arbalests as I need more mobility & can't afford to waste 8 years for them in Poland.

Prussia for ships & strategic units
Pomerania for trade, ships & strategic units
Poland for nearly everything especially cathredal as its prerequsite for university as i'm playing GA
Lithunania for all troops types(I got it with spear guild & bowyar guild) & trade
Silsea for nothing it comes with an inn so you could use it for mercs if you are at war with the neighbouring province(mercs have twice the support costs of normal troops). But I chose not to build anything apart from border fort(The HRE might swarm it with hordes of men & only Poland & lithunainia are worth holding.
Volhinya well when I finally did take it I only built a border fort & used this as a trap for the Russians/Turks/Scillians example

I had held if for maybe 10 years & it was 97% christian with 200% loyalty on low taxes. I had one of my usless heirs guarding it by himself. When the Russians/Turks/Sciallians decided to take it I would retreat, put about 10+ spys in it & get a loyalist revolt with some very nice troops & would then take it back off them, repeat

You will need a very good general to hold Lithunania(at the moment mine is rank 9 he got the vice often drunk so he lost 1 command but hes got that back already. Lithunania has been attacked every year for the last 16 years by the Russians. always more than 2 to 1 in their favour but after all this I have made a shambles of the Russian royal line & his top generals all now are cowards, hesitant, good runner, doubtful courage etc
My army consisted of 3 arbalests, 4 FS, 1 halberdier, 2 PR(lol they are valour 8 & still climbing) & my general which is a valour 10 Feudal Sergeant(possibbly the toughest unit I have ever seen in MTW he has actually won massive battles by himself) he also has the vice brave beyond belief & he truly lives up to that.
Finally after all those battles i'm now becoming a power to reckon with. I got livdonia to have a religious revolt that joined my faction & with these troops & the troops from the loyalist revolts I have takin Novorgorond & its citadel from the Russians and at the moment i'm seiging Moscow. Now all I have to do is fight off the Almohad horde that has taken the British Isles & has annillated the Spainish & Aragonese & are in the processs of savaging the french.....oh whats this the turkish are marching on Europe aswell(dam no crusades) I think they will have to meet the Polish hordes well maybe hordes is not the right word, I think dozens is more like it so the Polish dozens are gonna have to tend to a little religious matter in western & south eastern parts of Europe led by 2 perverse humanist rank 9 generals & their unstoppable small armies not even full stacks but all valour 6-7-8 & God is on their side http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Heres some other stuff I have noticed

1. When playing high period camapigns I have never got the invention of gunpowder parchment at year end 1159 or after & I have not been able to build bell foundaries & gunsmith's till very late 1200's early 1300's.......maybe its a bug with the high period campaign & I have not seen it mentioned anywhere.

2. Starting on high period so far for me has been a lot harder/enjoyable than the early period as the AI can give you a better fight with more advanced units & more income. (poor Byzantines not getting constantinople in high period)

3. Don't rely on the mongol invasion to keep the Russians busy for long so that you can backstab the Russians. They normally get thrashed same turn as they arrive but sometimes they do manage to hang on for a while(In my first attempt as the Polish they survived for 15 years , then a few years later the faction respawned LOL I have the pic)

I will hopefully be able to give some more tips in afew days unless I encounter the old CTD problem that has plagued all but one of my camapigns

Magraev
10-04-2002, 13:14
Brave battle against overwhelming odds. I hope to hear more about your campaign.

I may be a bit of a purist, but leaving prussia open to earn money off revolts seem like a bit of an exploit to me. I'd rather play at a lower difficulty-rating than have to resort to such tricks.

The same goes for inciting loyalist revolts many years in a row.

[This message has been edited by Magraev (edited 10-04-2002).]

RJV
10-04-2002, 18:36
See my 'Poland campaign' thread for my experiencess as the 'mighty' Poles. I started off using bribery to get Prussia, Pomerania and Lithuania. It cost me half the treasury but I got good-ish units without a fight so I guess you pays yer money and takes yer choice.
Prussia by the way is the most difficult to pacify. Troops and priests a-plenty and still only 130% with High tax. It's pretty developed too, as my ship producer.
Silesia gave me no mercs for years till I upgraded the fort to a keep, now there's no room at the inn... Despite there being no wars within hundreds of miles of the place.
I'm playing on Early so there are no Russkies to deal with, and no-one's really attacked me...yet.

------------------
There are no dumb questions, only dumb answers...

hiver77
10-04-2002, 20:21
Just a note, gunpowder event is 1260 ^_^.

Anyway, about the intentional revolt thing: I've done that too but only to train my troops during one of those annoying peace-time. Rank-up my generals, try out new troops, keep my army sharp.


[This message has been edited by hiver77 (edited 10-04-2002).]

Kalt
10-04-2002, 20:35
STEP1: Invade Hungary, take all their land except for croatia.

STEP2: Conquer the whole of the east, from novgorod to khazar.

STEP3: Build Churches, flood the whole map with priests. Meanwhile, set up for a 2-pronged attack on Byzantium.

STEP4: Attack South to Egypt from Khazar, and southeast from Hungary to capture Constantinople. Dont stop until your combined armies arrive in Egypt.

STEP5: Pick your best general, send him from Egypt to push clear to cordoba.

STEP6: Use your trade income to tech up every single province in your vast empire. Build border forts and town watch, farm and trade improvements, and churches. Keep your king in Constantinople, with ships linking your whole empire. Relax, have fun, build up your empire: you've already won.

STEP7: When you feel ready, unleash your mighty armies and best generals on the unsuspecting AI and overrun them in record time. Keep alot of troops handy to garrison your conquests. You will encounter no serious opposition if you waited long, the challenge is not in victory, but in how quickly you can finish the rest of the map off.

stranger_2
10-05-2002, 03:46
oh Kalt, it seems so nice 'n easy... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif R U kidding or being serious?

let's assume the latter... so seriously, AFAIK, or rather as I can see, optimal strategy for Poland differs very much depending on period and level. hope everybody agrees that what U wrote doesn't seem to be very realistic on high/expert and should work magnificient on early/normal.

so the question is, on which levels did U try it? e/h, e/e, h/n?

insolent1
10-05-2002, 22:54
The Stuggle Never Ends
The Byzantines are stuck in Rhodes with a mountain of princess's & loads of kat's that where once heirs now they are just puttin the faction in debt. The Italians have been slaughtered by the Hungarians & are reduced to islands. The Germans & French have been at each others throats for years but the almohads have forced them to become allies. The Germans wiped out the pathetic swiss revolt. The Russians went to war with the Turkish instead of continuing the fight with me. So I finished off the Russians & attacked the Turkish garrison in Kiev. It was a tough battle but I won with only minimal casualties. With Kiev now in my possession I was able to secure Khazar & the Crimea.
The Turkish attacked Poland & Kiev with massive armies led by good generals. I easily defeated them in Kiev but just barely managed to win in Poland as my king is rank 0, all of my men ran except 1 valour 2 feudal sergeant & my king who was the only man left in his unit. The feudal sergeant won the day & now he is Duke of lesser Poland....he has his head in the clouds now but since he served his country very well I won't assassinate/disband him.
The turkish where then pushed back to Bulgaria. I sent one of my generals to attack Georgia & lay waste to the Turkish lands beyond it, after this he marched up to Constantinople & took it off the infidels. Once Constantinople was in my hands I attacked Bulgaria & beat the best Turkish general in a grueling bridge battle. This forced the Turkish King to retreat to Serbia & some of his forces where in Greece. So I attacked Serbia with my forces from Bulgaria & attacked Greece with some of my troops from Constantinople. I captured the King, 2 of his sons & some nobility & got a 17,000 florin ransom. With this money I was able to get all the black sea provinces up & running & eventually built a small black sea fleet. After this I attacked the Turkish fleet & removed them from the black sea. The Turkish had a civil war & I bribed a 3 star general & used him to take Trebiziond.
So now I have a secure south eastern front held by 3 average generals & i'm starting to make some money from trade with the other catholic factions & the Almohads.

The Almohads have the British Isles apart from Mercia where the brave English King holds out with a rag tag army. The English somehow held off the Almohads for 10 years with a little help from me with spys & bishops. But eventually the almohads beat the English & have the castle under seige. I have a good army(no general) to send to help the English but can't get through because of their fleets. My first Cog is produced & I see this as time for war with the Almohads & that they have virtually wiped out the French(king in cyprus but they still have Champagne) & have crushed the Egyptians. They have also put a ship in the baltic which will give them way to much money from all my ports & when I do go to war I will need the Baltic sea for transoprting troops from Lithunania, Novorgrond & Muscovy
I have been preparing for this war & have at least 2 barques(no good captains) in every seazone in the North western sea area. I launch a premptive strike on the Almohad fleets in every sea zone & use my 1 Cog to blockade off Morocco(& sink some ships). Meanwhile my Eastern Med fleet has wiped out the Turkish fleets & turns it attention to Almohad fleets. I let my assassins go to work & target the Almohad units = slaughter but dam its hard to find them after it.
I ally with the HRE quickly as they are beseiged in Friesland. The seige gets lifted by my army in Saxony & 2 french loyalist revolts with really good troops take place in Flanders & Normandy(without any help from me). I move my Rank 9 general from Serbia to flanders to take on the rank 9 Almohad prince that sits in Wessex surrounded by catholic revolts. I move my first good heir(rank 3 with the v&v fine leader) in 100 years to Serbia & leave Poland protected by my 0 rank heir he is traumatised so he gives 9 morale bonus -3 command so i'm hoping that he won't become king as i'm going to train him.
I'm only about 10 years into the war but I have elimated his Fleets in the Northern area & my fleets are moping up the Med. I'm completly over stretched & have a lot of empty provinces with just spys in them and the Hungarians could decide to attack after all these years if they see how lightly defended a lot of my provinces are. I'm having a lot of trouble stamping out the orthodox religion in Russia even though I have armies of bishops & cardinals moving around. I can't afford to build churchs in every province as none of them have any forts or castles in them & i'm strapped for cash at the moment. I'm allied to all the catholic factions & we are all at war with the almohads except the papacy. The Alomhads are still the richest & they have 20+ full stacks movin between Morocco & Cordoba, thats not includin the stacks they have in Aquitane & middle east but their fleets are in ruins & i'm blockading the Iberian pennisula with 3 fleets all with good captains. The 9 star prince is still in Wessex i'm just waiting for the right moment to attack him. as he has a full stack & a good few AUM's so i'm moving 2 high valour halberdiers up to counter them they need retraining though so another year before I can attack him. The Hungarians have been steadfast allies since the start & now as part of my GA I have to take Hungary, its annoying as they are helping me fight the almohads & all my provinces surrounding them are very weak except Serbia & Poland. I have only 8 generals 1 rank 9, 1 rank 8, 1 rank 6, 2 rank 5, 1 rank 4, 1 rank 3 & 1 rank 2 so i'm really at a big disadvantage fighting the almohads as they have loads of good generals.

Magraev
I had no real choice in the revolts they happen any way as the Polish its impossible to garrison any province you take properly as you only start with 1 troop producing province. I only prolonged the amount of revolts by not garrsoning it & it was not for money it was for training my 2 star general who is now my best general he only has maxed command & loyaltly he has no acumen & no piety. His v&v's are
Famous warrior
often drunk
brave beyond belief
expert attacker
field defence specialist
skilled last stand
skilled risky attacks
he was trained from rank 2 & he is Duke of Prussia so +1 command

RJV
Try the high period on expert its very interesting & bribery wasn't an option for me as I only started with 4000 florins & bribery is not worth it for the provinces I would have got. I did bribe some of the rebels in my first try at the camapign & it didn't work as I ran out of money too fast.

Hiver77
LOL the amount of waffle spilled out in the original post i'm surprised it didn't go off track let alone have a small mistake or 2 in it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
the revolts where not intentional as I could not afford to build any more units & could not afford to support more units.

Kalt
Thats the right tatic for Polish on early period with hard or moderate difficulty but on high period & expert it is completly out of the question as I did try & take Hungary only to face a massive loyalist revolt as I did not have the troop producing facilities to garrison the province & got beaten by the massive high quality revolt guess what...........they invaded Poland next turn. The russians start with 2 fortesses so when they take Lithunania they will come knockin on your door very quickly. If you drive for Khazar you will have to face the mongol invasion without many troops & without a good general.

If only diplomacy worked better as I have an awful lot of provinces I don't want & can't really afford to keep them aswell & would glady hand them over to a catholic faction for a small sum.
anywayz i'm supposed to be playin GA mode so conquest isn't really part of my goals i'm just securing my borders http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

insolent1
10-07-2002, 01:47
The Polish will never end

well I got the old CTD with all my savegames for them so I have given up. I was just starting to enjoy beating the Almohads. I only had 2 big battles with them but managed to reduce the stacks significantly 2000 killed & 1000 captured in first battle & 1400 killed & 1100 captured. They refused to pay the ransoms so I managed to kill nearly 6000 in 2 battles to 260 total losses for me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
DAM U CTD thats 6 camapigns so far & always just as I was starting to enjoy myself

Anywayz i'm gonna try the Almohads next & cover Europe with mosques