Hello, I was just wondering if anyone knew of a place that I could find a list Early Germanic words and rules of pronunciation, from around 100 BCE to CE 1 preferably.
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Hello, I was just wondering if anyone knew of a place that I could find a list Early Germanic words and rules of pronunciation, from around 100 BCE to CE 1 preferably.
In short, there are no documents from this period. Everthing to do with pronunciation is founded on reconstructions supported by a number of theories, which are based on some assumptions, that more often than not, reflect the recent or modern geopolitical leanings, of their academic progenitors and advocates alike. The earliest surviving text in Alemannic is the Bülach fibula; a very short runic script, which dates between the 3rd and 6th centuries AD. The earliest known East Germanic text is the Codex Argenteus (6th century AD) which includes Ulfilas's 4th century AD translation of the Greek Bible into Gothic.
I hope this may help.
CmacQ
Cmacq does a good job answering the question in a short summation (although I would dispute geopoliticalness in concern to linguistic theory and clear Indo-European connection), but were you interested in online resources for Gothic, Old High German, ect., despite their later transcription? Or decent publications at an academic library? I would be happy to provide some stuff I have encountered, but I won't bother if you or anyone else isn't going to be checking back to this thread... sorry, but I am very busy.
PS- what kind of terminology are you looking for? there are significant differences in the lexicon offered by the various dialects, for many reasons, such as with Gothic which is restricted to religious material, although the Bible is not without action (just pale in comparison to lovely Viking saga), but does have a direct influence on how pagan religious terminology is ignored or borrowed for usage to convey the Bible to Christians, and how the Germans viewed various concepts through their various usages.
I was interested in the oldest Germanic recorded, (by either Germans or Latin historians) and I was interested in academic collections, because even though I have an extraordinarily large collection of academic references, almost none of them have anything to say Early Germanic beyond that it was clearly Indo-European. Of coarse that’s because almost all of the books I have are about the Celtic world (because I'm infatuated with my peoples history) and so I was wondering if anyone knew where I could find either the theories of how Early Germanic worked or actual contemporary references.
And I was most interested in the West Germans, the Chatii, Chauci, ect.
And specifically, what peoples might these be that could now be called Celt?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aodhan
Perhaps he's french?
How you guys from the EB team collected all the Sweboz words, where can i find the source too?
French indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominique
Someone? :juggle2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Havok.
Judging by the number of times Blitz has made corrections to the text files concerning the text files, it appears to me to not exactly be a precise science, like the others have said. Here's the log of the last 100 changes to the build in the text files (I removed the content as there are also some internal messages in the log, but all his changes concern Sweboz text). He's constantly finding better ways to write the weird stuff. Have to admire that guy's energy and diligence.
I think blitz has a bunch of books that he references about old germanic. IIRC, they were sent to him by someone else on the EB team when he first joined.
just because of the way you make it sound, Marcus, I want to point out that only 2 books I have are from Shigawire. I acquired the rest separately well before joining EB.
Thanks, Bovi, ~:) while I seriously appreciate the compliment, the multitude of corrections show how OCD i am ~;p but it is true that the Pre-Germanic Indo-European was pretty damn good before but I have reworked it quite a bit for as best a fit as possible.
I don't have a lot of time at the moment so i will copy and paste some info and add more later... this is from one of our voice mod previews:
These are the latest and pretty final Sweboz names I have made for EB1 (notice my choice of x instead of h or ch to correctly portray that phoneme in the context of Germanic language):Quote:
"I’ve used several resources for my work on Proto-Germanic, some of which I am extensively familiar with as I’ve had them since completion of many graduate courses concerning Germanic studies, such as Mitchell and Robinson's A Guide to Old English, Roger Lass' Old English: A historical linguistic companion, F. Holthausen's Altenlishes Etymologishes Worterbuch (one of the best word-hoards published- although only in modern German), DH Green’s Language and History in the Early Germanic World, E.V. Gordon's An Introduction to Old Norse, Joseph Wright's Grammar of the Gothic Language, and William H. Bennett's An Introduction to The Gothic.
Multiple works on Proto-Germanic and Germanic studies, some available for free online by Gerhard Köbler, Winfred P. Lehmann, Elmer Antonsen, and August Fick, Hjalmar Falk, and Alf Torp have been helpful and interesting.
Shigawire, Voice Mod coordinator extraordinaire, generous ring-giver and performer of great deeds, has spent his hard-earned money to forward the pursuit of knowledge and accuracy and acquired recently published texts to help in the reconstruction of Proto-Germanic: Vladimir Orel’s A Handbook of Germanic Etymology (682 page word-hoard of Proto-Germanic & cognates), Joseph B. Voyles’ Early Germanic Grammar, and Anthony Fox’s Linguistic Reconstruction."
This is my relevant pronunciation guide-Quote:
{generic_ship_baitaz} Nagwonez (Transport Boats)
{generic_ship_skipaz} Xorixeulōm Fleudō (Warship Fleet)
{celtic_infantry_lugian} Marslugoi Lugjiskoi (Lugii Heavy Swordsmen)
{celtic_infantry_aljazgae} Gaisolitho Aljod (Celto-Germanic Spearmen)
{celtic_cavalry_celtogermanic} Marxolitho Wolxiskod (Celto-Germanic Cavalry)
{germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz} Reidonez (Germanic Light Cavalry)
{germanic_cavalry_ridoharjoz_mercenary} Dreugulōzez Exworeidondijoi (Germanic Mercenary Light Cavalry)
{germanic_infantry_klumbokarlaz} Sloxonez (Germanic Club Infantry)
{germanic_infantry_swardimannoz} Jugundiz Xathjiskā (Chatti Club Infantry)
{germanic_infantry_bastarnoz_swaiut} Druxtiz Basterniskā (Bastarnae Falx Infantry)
{germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz} Xosenthōzez Xazdādoi (Germanic Bodyguard)
{germanic_infantry_frameharjoz} Dugundiz (Germanic Spearmen)
{germanic_infantry_frankamannoz} Gaisofulxo Frijod (Germanic Levy Spearmen)
{germanic_infantry_gaisaz_harjoz} Speudogordoz (Germanic Pike Infantry)
{germanic_infantry_gastiz} Dreugulōzez Brunjādoi (Germanic Heavy Infantry)
{germanic_infantry_habukoz_swaiut} Druxtiz Xobugiskā (Chauci Spearmen)
{germanic_infantry_sahsnotoz} Xerunoudōzez (Germanic Swordsmen)
{germanic_infantry_skandza_swaiut} Druxtiz Goudiskā (Gaut Spearmen)
{germanic_infantry_swainoz} Jugundiz (Germanic Skirmishers)
{germanic_infantry_wodanawulfaz} Woithiz Wāthā (Germanic Naked Fanatic Spearmen)
{germanic_missile_bugimannoz} Skudjonez (Germanic Archers)
{germanic_cavalry_marhathegnoz} Xosenthōzez Marxoreidondijoi (Germanic Heavy Cavalry)
{germanic_infantry_cheruscii_swordsmen} Druxtiz Xeruskā (Cherusci Swordsmen)
{germanic_infantry_chatti_spearmen} Dugundiz Xathjiskā (Chatti Spearmen)
{germanic_infantry_wargoz} Worgōzez (Wild Mercenary Infantry)
{germanic_infantry_kirslininkas} Kirwīnīkōs (Baltic Axemen)
{germanic_missile_lankininkas} Lonkīnīkōs (Baltic Archers)
{germanic_missile_medininkas} Medjīnīkōs (Baltic Frontiersmen)
{germanic_infantry_karas_viras} Zemjones (Baltic Light Spearmen)
{germanic_infantry_karotovas} Korodrougōs (Oskywie Swordsmen)
{steppe_infantry_voinu_spearmen} Vojīnōs (Slavic Light Spearmen)
{germanic_general_gastiz} Xorjonoz Dreugondijoz (Germanic Mercenary General)
{governors_house_germans} Erleso Gordoz (Nobleman's Manor)
{governors_villa_germans} Frowonez Gordoz (Lord's Manor)
{governors_palace_germans} Gunungeso Gordoz (Chieftain's Manor)
{proconsuls_palace_germans} Sebjai Druxteneso Gordoz (Royal Court)
{wooden_pallisade_germans} Wornoxagō (Wooden Palisade)
{wooden_wall_germans} Burgwojjuz (Fortress Wall)
{blacksmith_germans} Aisosmithjō (Blacksmith)
{trader_germans} Soljonez Būthā (Trader's Shop)
{market_germans} Solōstathiz (Marketplace)
{forum_germans} Solōstathiz Mexiloz (Great Marketplace)
{coast_germans} Strenthilouxoz (Coastal Clearing)
{port_germans} Anosoiwoi Solōbreugjō (Trading Port)
{shipwright_germans} Anosoiwoi Solōbreugjō Mexilizō (Larger Trading Port)
{sanitize_germans} Deigwogodārō (Simple Drainage)
{sewers_germans} Soibōwergō (Soap Maker)
{baths_germans} Bēdi Demro (Bath House)
{roads_germans} Xoriwegōzez (Military Roads)
{farms_germans} Agrōzez Aridoi (Basic Farming)
{mines_germans} Aisogroftuz (Mines)
{game_field_germans} Loigomōdo (Field of Games)
{tavern_germans} Brewwondi Demro (Brewery)
{bardic_circle_germans} Leuthodoiliz (Bardic Circle)
{temple_of_battle_shrine_germans} Froujōni Xarugoz (Holy Stones to Froujō)
{temple_of_battle_temple_germans} Froujōni Barwoz (Sacred Grove to Froujō)
{temple_of_farming_shrine_germans} Engwi Xarugoz (Holy Stones to Enxwoz)
{temple_of_farming_temple_germans} Engwi Barwoz (Sacred Grove to Enxwoz)
{temple_of_farming_large_temple_germans} Engwi Ermenswelā (Heavenly Pillar to Enxwoz)
{temple_of_fertility_shrine_germans} Thunri Xarugoz (Holy Stones to Thunroz)
{temple_of_fertility_temple_germans} Thunri Barwoz (Sacred Grove to Thunroz)
{temple_of_fertility_large_temple_germans} Thunri Ermenswelā (Heavenly Pillar to Thunroz)
{temple_of_forge_shrine_germans} Deiwi Xarugoz (Holy Stones to Deiwoz)
{temple_of_forge_temple_germans} Deiwi Barwoz (Sacred Grove to Deiwoz)
{temple_of_forge_large_temple_germans} Deiwi Ermenswelā (Heavenly Pillar to Deiwoz)
{temple_of_fun_shrine_germans} Nerthu Xarugoz (Holy Stones to Nerthuz)
{temple_of_fun_temple_germans} Nerthu Barwoz (Sacred Grove to Nerthuz)
{temple_of_governors_shrine_germans} Wādoni Xarugoz (Holy Stones to Wāthonoz)
{temple_of_governors_temple_germans} Wādoni Barwoz (Sacred Grove to Wāthonoz)
{temple_of_governors_large_temple_germans} Wādoni Ermenswelā (Heavenly Pillar to Wāthonoz)
{doctor_germans} Lēgijeso Xoimoz (Healer's House)
{granary_germans} Gurnowestei Demro (Granary)
{grain_silo_germans} Gurnowestei Demro Mexilod (Large Granary)
{naval_bay_germans} Nagwoweigā (Naval Bay)
{naval_harbour_germans} Xorixeulōmiz Stathā (Military Port)
{naval_port_germans} Xorixeulōmiz Stathā Mexilā (Large Military Port)
{uniqueroad2_barbarian} Mōristoigāz (Marshland Footbridges)
{uniqueroad4_barbarian} Limios Alsos (The Sacred Grove)
{uniqueroad6_germans} Glēsowegoz (The Amber Route)
{threefive_barbarian} Laxuz Xoilogoz (The Holy Lake)
{foureight_barbarian} Erxnaxmaroz (The Shining Stone)
{river_port_germans} Axwai Breugjō (River Port)
{genericfirst_germans} Thenxoz (Assembly of Freemen)
{muster_field_G_germans} Xorji Xlejā nu Sorwosmithjō (Military Booths & Forge)
{militia_barracks_G1_germans} Xorji Xlejā nu Sorwosmithjōnez tho Grengoz (Military Booths, Forges & Arena)
{city_barracks_G1_germans} Xoribūwā Ajuxā nu Rounagroz (Military Housing & Drill Field)
{army_barracks_G1_germans} Selōzez nu Rounagrōzez tho Exwostollōzez (Halls, Drill Fields & Stables)
{royal_barracks_G1_germans} Selōzez Mexiloi nu Marxostollōzez tho Spurdz (Great Halls, Stables & Battle-course)
{muster_field_U_germans} Xorji Leudeso Xlejā nu Sorwosmithjō (Vassal's Military Booths & Forge)
{militia_barracks_U1_germans} Xorji Leudeso Xlejā nu Sorwosmithjōnez tho Grengoz (Vassal's Military Booths, Forges & Arena)
{city_barracks_U1_germans} Leudeso Xoribūwā Ajuxā nu Rounagroz (Vassal's Military Housing & Drill Field)
{army_barracks_U1_germans} Leudeso Selōzez nu Rounagrōzez tho Exwostollōzez (Vassal's Halls, Drill Fields & Stables)
{royal_barracks_U1_germans} Leudeso Selōzez Mexiloi nu Marxostollōzez tho Spurdz (Vassal's Great Halls, Stables & Battle-course)
{sweboz1} Theuthāz Dīdiz (Time of the Tribe)
{sweboz2} Druxteiz Dīdiz (Time of the Warband)
{gov_feeder_germans} Gauji Frithājondz (Regional Pacification)
{gov1_germans} Frijdōmoz Guniwaldoz Fulxeso Swēbiskeso (Suebic Royal Tribal Dominion)
{gov2_germans} Frijdōmoz Geislowaldoz Leudeso Swēbiskeso (Suebic Allied Vassal State)
{gov3_germans} Frijdōmoz Audwaldoz Leudeso Swēbiskeso (Suebic Semiautonomous Vassal State)
{gov4_germans} Frijdōmoz Unwaldoz Leudeso Swēbiskeso (Suebic Autonomous Vassal State)
{bodyguard_german} Worthoz Swēsoz
{drillmaster_german} Rounagoz
{famous_warrior_german} Rengoz Mērijoz
{galloper_german} Skeujō
{heroic_saviour_german} Nosjondz Dersoxoz
{herald_german} Airoz
{mercenary_captain_german} Frowō Dreugondijoz
{scout_german} Neuxsijō
{Priest_of_Fraujon} Froujōni Guthjō
{Priest_of_Ingwaz} Engwi Guthjō
{Priest_of_Thunaraz} Thunri Guthjō
{Priest_of_Tiwaz} Deiwi Guthjō
{Priest_of_Nerthuz} Nerthu Guthjō
{Priest_of_Wodanaz} Wādoni Guthjō
{skelduberaz} Skelduberondz
{heruberaz} Xeruberondz
{berthingaz} Berxtengoz
{gaizaberaz} Gaisoberondz
{Spehokwenon} Weixō Woluneudondijā
{Skeldumagathiz} Skeldumagodiz
{CelticWife} Gwēniz Wolxiskoz
{Drugulaz} Thexnoz Drugonoz
{Thuliz} Thuliz
{Erilaz} Erloz
{Athalaz} Frowō
{Athalingaz} Athalengoz
{Godingaz} Gunungoz
{GermanicKuningaz} Druxtenoz
{GermanicTheudanaz} Theuthonoz
{Naisamannaz} Ergoz
{Skauldaz} Leuthowebō
{Spehalikaz} Spexāleigoz
{Weisigaz} Weisoz
{Potential_HairaskapizAllaStamnoz} Xalthō Faxroz
{HairaskapizAllaStamnoz} Waldondz Theudōm Alaizōm
{HairaskapizAllaStamnoz_Final} Waldondz Theudōm Alaizōm
{Potential_Segerumiskoz} Rūmāreufondz Faxroz
{Segerumiskoz} Rūmāreufondz
{Segerumiskoz_Final} Rūmāreufondz
{Potential_Segewalahuz} Wregondz Faxroz Wolgōm
{Segewalahuz} Wregondz Wolgōm
{Segewalahuz_Final} Wregondz Wolgōm
{Joined_Sweboz} Frijāndz Swēbōm
{Driven_By_Hunger} Xunxrufrāthoz
{Sweboz_Raider} Roubijō
{Blood_Vengeance} Faixoz
{Covets_Southern_Opulence} Sundē Fexufrexoz
{Rhine_Raider} Roubāndz Rejeneso
{Haimiskaz} Xoimiskoz
{Wild_German} Welthijoz
{Harjanaz} Xorjonoz
{ExHarjanaz} Skomādoz
{Hamarammaz} Xomorommoz
{Blotagernaz} Blādogernoz
{Blotawisistaz} Blādoweisistoz
{Worships_Fraujon_Sweboz} Froujōni Blādijoz
{Worships_Ingwaz_Sweboz} Engwi Blādijoz
{Worships_Thunaraz_Sweboz} Thunri Blādijoz
{Worships_Tiwaz_Sweboz} Deiwi Blādijoz
{Worships_Nerthuz_Sweboz} Nerthu Blādijoz
{Worships_Wodanaz_Sweboz} Wādoni Blādijoz
{Germanic_Spring} Wēso
{Germanic_Summer} Sumroz
{Germanic_Fall} Osniz
{Germanic_Winter} Wendroz
{Sweboz_Samanoningaz} Somnōnōm
{Sweboz_Ermundeuringaz} Ermundurōm
{Sweboz_Markamanningaz} Mergomannōm
{Sweboz_Wenjonilingaz} Wennilōm
{Sweboz_Heruskingaz} Xeruskōm
{Sweboz_Hattingaz} Xadjōm
{Sweboz_Habukingaz} Xobugōm
{Sweboz_Kembringaz} Xeimbrōm
{Sweboz_Gutoningaz} Goudōm
Quote:
Pre-Germanic : Indo-European : Voice-Mod
IMPORTANT NOTES:
/ UPPERCASE+BOLD / = [stressed syllable] using late Indo-European dynamic Stress Rule
/ lowercase / = [unstressed syllable] using late IE Stress Rule
/ blue / = [pronounced syllable]
a = / a , A / as in Spa (English), Bad (Dutch), pâte (French), hat (Norwegan)
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, back, low;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_unrounded_vowel
ā = / ā , Ā / > [a] as above but vocalized long
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, back, low, +tense, +long;
e = / e , E / as in fete (Romania), φαινόμενο (Greek), bebé (Spanish)
Voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-m...nrounded_vowel
ē = / ē , Ē / > [e] as above but vocalized long
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, +tense, +long;
i = / i , I / as in happy (English), insulă (Romanian) is (Norwegan), Ziel (German), biet (Dutch)
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, high;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_f...nrounded_vowel
ī = / ī , Ī / > [i] as above but vocalized long
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, high, +tense, +long;
o = / o , O / as in copil (Romanian), ωκεανός (Greek), todo (Spanish)
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, back, rounded;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-m..._rounded_vowel
ō = / ō , Ō / > [o] as above but vocalized long
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, back, rounded, +tense, +long;
u = / u , U / as in Fuß (German), unu (Romanian), voet (Dutch), mot (Norwegan)
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, high, back, rounded;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_back_rounded_vowel
ū = / ū , Ū / > [u] as above but vocalized long
voiced sonorant : syllabic, continuant, high, back, rounded, +tense, +long;
ai = / ai, AI / [a+i] as above
oi = / oi , OI / [o+i] as above
ou = / ou , OU / [o+u] as above
ei = / ei , EI / [e+i] as above
eu = / eu , EU / [e+u] as above
j = / j , J / as in ja (German), jaar (Dutch) > [i] in the function of a consonant
voiced approximate (palatial): -stressed, -syllabic;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatal...al_approximant
w = / w , W / as in wit (English), oui (French) > [u] in the function of a consonant
voiced approximate (labial-velar) : -stressed, -syllabic;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_...ar_approximant
β = / v , V / as in vreemd (Dutch), vine (English), Wächter (German)
voiced fricative (labiodental) : continuant, +aspirated;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_...ntal_fricative
χ = / kh , Kh / as in nacht (German), acht (Belgian Dutch), loch (Scottish)
voiceless fricative (velar) : continuant, +aspirated;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative
ġ = / gh , Gh / as in gaan (Dutch), sagen (German) but voiced [kh] quality
voiced not fully fricative (velar) : continuant, +aspirated;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative
þ = / th , Th / as in thin, beneath (English), θάλασσα (Greek) but [t] quality
voiceless not fully fricative (dental) : continuant, +aspirated;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative
ð = / dh , Dh / as in this, then (English), δάφνη (Greek) but [d] quality
voiced not fully fricative (dental) : continuant, +aspirated;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_dental_fricative
r = / ŕ , Ŕ / as in rood (Dutch), Robe (S. German) before consonants & when final
voiced trill (alveolar) : continuant;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill
* All other consonants not mentioned are equivalent to those of the English Latin-based alphabet. Please keep in mind that other languages’ Latin-based alphabets differ from that of English and refer to English specifically, as it has remained a true Germanic language.
** Diphthongs will be represented by their metrically equivalent short vowels (joined together as one syllable) - this is because modern diphthongs do not seem to present the original IE sounds correctly (which are already hard to peg) and they can be glided and sped up to produce the same sound in a more helpful and appropriate manner.
If you have any questions about specific terms, I can answer them in time, but obviously I cant account all of it in an easy manner. Some terms are taken from Beowulf and Old English texts like Dugunthiz 'Veteran warriors' and some are taken from Old Norse word formations such as Speutogardaz or Herunautoz. In many cases I have compared various Proto-Germanic reconstructions and back-constructed an appropriate Indo-European based on some theories, similar to the application used by Voyles in his book.
STILL WORKING ON THIS POST to add more goodies
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Gonna browse the internét for this books :yes:
Blitz could you name a few additional names/books too?
can you be more specific, such as what your interests are concerning the recommendation, since grammar/dictionaries and language are quite a bit different from historical commentary and such. DH Green who I referenced is a combination which has some of the best stuff I've encountered since language is one of the only kinds of evidence we have besides the occaisional rare archaeological finds and literature by Roman contemporaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havok.
i'm trying to find books that contains info about the life/family structure/clans/tribes/religion/language of the early germanics, not just language, but i'm out of luck till now :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by blitzkrieg80
Firstly I would like to thank Blitzkrieg80 for his help in my quest to learn what I can about early Germanic, thank you very much, and secondly I would like to say too Cmacq,
Chan'eil mi Fràngaich, Dwi mo 'n Ffrengig, or I am not French.
Gun robh Frangaich tigh'nn nam miltean,
'S cha bhreug huam gur h-i an fhirinn,
'S iomadh fear bhios sint' gun deo.
Gan fanllefau tywysogion,
Llais gelynion, trwst arfogion,
A charlamiad y marchogion,
Craig ar graig a gryn!
CmacQ
:inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by cmacq
So Cmacq are you a fan of Capercaillie?Quote:
Originally Posted by cmacq