super naked gauls

Hi there, haven't posted in a while, then again, haven't played in a while.
Downloaded 1.1, playing as Romani, things are going fine, but seems like fighting the Gauls is a LOT tougher then going against Epiros, Carthage, etc.
That doesn't make sense to me, what gives in making them tougher then others?
the Gaesatae are especially (ridiculously?) tough, I mean, they can mow down a whole unit of principe while only suffering 10-20 casualty, they can regularly make my units rout, and even as NAKEd as they are they seem impervious to Javelins (only 1-2 deaths after a volley)
Europa Barbarorum indeed, but making them superhuman dosen't seem realistic.

Other than that, great game so far, no CTDs so far (crossing fingers)

playing in Hard/Hard, btw

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Originally Posted by zemaniak

playing in Hard/Hard, btw

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That's the reason why it's so hard for you to kill gaesatae. When you play any battles with lvls higher than medium, the AI get bonuses to their troops' stats.

Yeah, it's recommended that you play battle difficulties on medium, and campaign difficulties from medium to very hard. Harder battle difficulties severely disrupt the gameplay balance the EB strove so hard to attain, while not helping the make the AI "smarter" at all. RTW hardcode.

On a sidenote, the Naked Fanatics are big crazy dudes with 2 hp's who are on drugs, literally. I hear that you should just get them with a bunch of slingshots and javelins before the melee, than repeatedly flank them with your cavalry. Ibrahim made a guide in the gameplay section about how to properly utilise cavalry to their full effect.

:2thumbsup:

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On a sidenote, the Naked Fanatics are big crazy dudes with 2 hp's who are on drugs, literally. I hear that you should just get them with a bunch of slingshots and javelins before the melee, than repeatedly flank them with your cavalry. Ibrahim made a guide in the gameplay section about how to properly utilise cavalry to their full effect.

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Yes. Try and pin them with something heavy, like Principes or Triarii [haven't played Romani in a while, so my ideas of heavy might be off, heh]. Circle around with Velites/Rorarii/Hastati, and throw some javelins in their back. Then charge with heavy cavalry [Equites Romani/Equites Consulares/Equites Extraordinarii]

I realize I shoud have read the FAQ first, but snce I had played before....

I don't suppose there is a way to switch back to Hard/medium or Very Hard/ medium without having to start over....I'm at 246 BC w/ 13 regions

The Gaesatae are indeed powerful. IMHO (as I've stated before), giving them two hitpoints because they consume drugs before battle is to misunderstand just how powerful additional hitpoints make a unit. Polybius describes the Gaesatae at Telemann as having been dealt with by the Velites--imagine that happening in EB! I'm sure if it was possible to reduce the power of additional hitpoints it would have been done, but for now the Gaesatae are ahistorically resistant to missiles. The best way to counter this hardcoded shortcoming is to reduce their armor by a few points. You will then be able to deal with them more easily through the use of Velites and other missile-armed troops.

Those dudes intimidate all other infantry, making them harder to kill. But cavalry are not intimidated, so tend to kill them a little easier.

I'll leave it to the imagination to figure out why Roman men might be intimidated, but horses aren't...

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Originally Posted by TWFanatic

...because they consume drugs before battle...

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Really?

How many units of Gaesatae do you normally encounter when you are playing against the Arverni/Aedui? I usually begin the war with the faction that becomes stronger than the other, just so it won't get too powerful and I usually begin the war around 250 BC. None of the two factions are significantly strong by that time. Plus, I have not noticed any Gaesatae spamming by the AI. One or two units in a stack is the most I get and normally I don't encounter them at all. I also use assassins to sabotage MICs. Most of the armies of Gaul are made up of Lugoae, Bataroas, Botroas, Iaosatae, Leuce Epos, and the Brihentin bodyguards. Except for the bodyguard, the units resemble levies more than professional soldiers. They are numerous but generally rout easily, that is when you're not playing VH/H or VH/VH difficulty. EB units already have very high morale compared to RTW. In my first battles in this mod, almost all of the engagements resulted in a big blob of my and my enemies' units, it was simple slugging match because their units would simply refuse to rout. You don't have to play EB on the Hard battle map difficulty, its already reasonably challenging. Just wait 'till you get far away from your homeland!

Also, when you're playing against Quadrastim and Eperios, you will find out that most units that can be recruited by the first are elites while the latter have phalanxes and elephants. Solduros and Gaesatae are pretty much the only elite units in Gaul. Not only that, but Solduros are just not that hard to defeat, while even a full-strength levy phalanx will chew up 75% of the principes in front of it even if it is surrounded by four units of either principes or triarii from all sides (provided it doesn't rout, which it does not usually in a fair battle.

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Originally Posted by lobf

Really?

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Yeah, these guys actually do it. We're not joking here, as this is the secret to their success. Too bad it isn't as good in today's society as back then...

Anyways, keep in mind that only the Gaesatae are elite, crazy dudes on drugs. The other naked guys, the wanna-be fanatics, are not on drugs, and are merely younger men trying to prove themselves in insane ways. Despite that, they still frighten other units well enough.
:yes:

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Originally Posted by TWFanatic

The Gaesatae are indeed powerful. IMHO (as I've stated before), giving them two hitpoints because they consume drugs before battle is to misunderstand just how powerful additional hitpoints make a unit. Polybius describes the Gaesatae at Telemann as having been dealt with by the Velites--imagine that happening in EB! I'm sure if it was possible to reduce the power of additional hitpoints it would have been done, but for now the Gaesatae are ahistorically resistant to missiles. The best way to counter this hardcoded shortcoming is to reduce their armor by a few points. You will then be able to deal with them more easily through the use of Velites and other missile-armed troops.

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The Gaesatae Polybius describes are mostly regular gaesatae, warriors from the same tribe. The gaesatae depicted in the EB gaesatae are the elites of the tribe. The other warriors from the gaesatae, who formed the biggest part, could be represented by the celtic naked spearmen. And if the velited outnumber the gaesatae decently they are dead meat. And the 2HP are not overpowering as these guys pulled javelins out their bodies and threw them back. I'd say that warrants a 2HP.
But like I said the EB gaesatae are the crème de la crème from the gaesatae tribe.

I have no probs with them to, hell, I regularly rout THEM as Romani :D

Some Triarii in the front blocking/slowing their main attacks while some principes/Samniti move to the flanks and charge there after their 2 volleys.

Finally, a heavy cavalry or my mounted general go around and make a full charge in the rear.
Voila, gesatae took heavy losses and go routing/fighting to death soon. Sometimes it takesd multiple cav charges, but that's it...

Of course, if you manage to pick off the enemy general first you can start doing the banana dance right away as this is always a HUGE morale impact.

Usually, when I kill the general the same moment some of the poor troops start routing, mostly the levies of course.

Gaesatae kick ass, but they are only few and once dealt with you are done ;)

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Originally Posted by Moros

The Gaesatae Polybius describes are mostly regular gaesatae, warriors from the same tribe. The gaesatae depicted in the EB gaesatae are the elites of the tribe. The other warriors from the gaesatae, who formed the biggest part, could be represented by the celtic naked spearmen. And if the velited outnumber the gaesatae decently they are dead meat. And the 2HP are not overpowering as these guys pulled javelins out their bodies and threw them back. I'd say that warrants a 2HP.
But like I said the EB gaesatae are the crème de la crème from the gaesatae tribe.

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Is this EB information or is there a source where I can verify this? If "these guys pulled javelins out their bodies" is from what happened in Greece, there is no mention of the gaesatae, just other tribes. As far as the gaesate represented in EB being the elite, where can I read on this?

The gasatae unit EB has represent the elite warriors of the gaesatae tribe. Were exact words from the unit conceptor.
The exact text about the javelins is indeed what happened from greece, and though the Gaesatae may or may not be mentioned in the text. The warriors depicted in the text at least fought in a similar fashion. If I had more time I might take a look at the text, but frankly I don't have that time now. Not that I'm in the mood to start this discussion either.

Also Frostwulf long time since I your last post (at least one I saw), though I'm not surprised you had to post in this thread.

Drugs = pcp....I think I remember from reading of earlier discussion along these lines....the drug the gestetae used was similar to this modern drug, I think nick named 'cop killer' in the US.....in EB...think of it as centurion killer :skull:

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Originally Posted by HFox

Drugs = pcp....I think I remember from reading of earlier discussion along these lines....the drug the gestetae used was similar to this modern drug, I think nick named 'cop killer' in the US.....in EB...think of it as centurion killer :skull:

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Yeah it indeed appeared to be something similar. Then again the celts weren't the only ones in history which used such things. Certain zulu tribes als used such a drug IIRC.

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Originally Posted by Methuselah

Yeah, these guys actually do it. We're not joking here, as this is the secret to their success. Too bad it isn't as good in today's society as back then...

Anyways, keep in mind that only the Gaesatae are elite, crazy dudes on drugs. The other naked guys, the wanna-be fanatics, are not on drugs, and are merely younger men trying to prove themselves in insane ways. Despite that, they still frighten other units well enough.
:yes:

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No, I understand this is the common conception, but I thought we had established that there was no reason to believe that.

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Originally Posted by Frostwulf

Is this EB information or is there a source where I can verify this? If "these guys pulled javelins out their bodies" is from what happened in Greece, there is no mention of the gaesatae, just other tribes. As far as the gaesate represented in EB being the elite, where can I read on this?

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You can't.

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Originally Posted by lobf

No, I understand this is the common conception, but I thought we had established that there was no reason to believe that.

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No my dear sir, you did. But if it's your word against that of a specialist. Surely yours is the more credible. :laugh4:

well, the 2 hp are perfect or crazy fanatics-that said, I was able to rout them using rorarii (don't ask). true, only 43 rorarii were left, but they broke the gaesatae, not visa-versa. and no they only had 1 chevron bronze. the trick is to shoot, run away, the turn and shoot. they almost failed, unitl a maniple of hastati joined in and fired whenever the rorarii ran/ fought.

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Originally Posted by Moros

No my dear sir, you did. But if it's your word against that of a specialist. Surely yours is the more credible. :laugh4:

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You have to be kidding me. Why don't you look into it yourself instead of trusting what you remember of the word of some "specialist." If you actually do, you will certainly change your tune. I made a topic a while back about this specific issue, and there was not a single available source for this information besides the word of said "specialist."

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Originally Posted by Moros

The warriors depicted in the text at least fought in a similar fashion. If I had more time I might take a look at the text, but frankly I don't have that time now. Not that I'm in the mood to start this discussion either.

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Moros where do you get that they fought in a similar fashion? Outside of EB do you have any written evidence to support this? What is the source of the EB material? I really hope you do make the time to look into this, any input based on reading the given material is good.

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Originally Posted by Moros

Also Frostwulf long time since I your last post (at least one I saw), though I'm not surprised you had to post in this thread.

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It has been awhile since I posted last which was about Dun da nFerg. I wasn't really going to post here but for three reasons I did. I ended up sending a pm to someone about some of the subjects discussed here, the guy who started this thread asked the question and I didn't want him thinking that the gaesatae represented here are factual, and I keep finding faults with the information being presented such as Dun da nFerg(very doubtful existence).

God I'm sick of these threads. Yes Lobf, and yes Frostwulf, we realise that you have issues with certain units in the celtic line-up. We have been treated to several threads on nearly every single one of these things. We've answered you. We realise that we haven't answered you to your satisfaction, but we have answered you all the same. The Historians who worked on the units (insulting them won't help btw) are no longer with us so they cannot answer you. In EBII we are making a better attempt at documenting all evidence for each unit so as to satisfy you and your brethren. Until then, why do you insist on kicking a dead horse.

Thread closed out of sheer exasperation and over-abundance of a topic.

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