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Hi everyone,
I have been reading about the seclued empire and how it collapsed and I've decided to play as AS. Only problem is I don't know how to use the phalanx correctly. It seems to me that I suffer to many casualties with it. How deep should a phalanx formation be? Should it be on gaurd mode? What are good strategies for seiges, both attacking and defending. What is a 'pike push'. Thanks in advace for any info ill be getting!
Long live EB!
I find that in open ground the best option for a phalanx is to make a line with all of your phalanx units and then have your phalangitais guard mode, this means that they take almost no casualties while steadily depleting the enemy - and also holding them in front of their pikes, and tiring them out. Historically this is when a heavy cavalry charge (or any kind of charge) would come from behind and rout the enemy army, which is what I do by and large most of the time.
As for attacking cities I tend to shy away from phalanxs just because they have such bad path finding in cities. If I'm planning on a campaign where I'll actually take a few cities I tend to bring along a designated core of assault troops which can be anything from factional heavy infantry like the Hypasists or whatever mecercenaries happen to be availiable - Galatians and Thracians are particular favorites.
Also, on how 'deep' the phalanx show be, I'd say always *at least* five rows, because that way you have all four lines of pikes that can point forward pointing forward, plus an extra row, but in general I stick with the default breadth unless I know I'm outnumbered, necessitating a wider line. It is in situations like those that I fall back on usually six, sometimes five ranks deep.
Hmmm, odd. I always thought the phalanx was overrated in EB. I do not know why you seem to be suffering many casualties with it. Yes, you should have the phalanx on the guard mode. A good phalanx depth would be four lines. In a pinch, you could make it three. Phalanxes are very tough in EB. It is practically impossible for enemy infantry to get through the front row of pikes in EB. RTW phalanxes were much easier. Even the Pantodapoi Phalangitai (Hellenic Native Phalanx) is devastating. The best formation for non-city battles would be a long line. For defensive battles it should be the box. Cavalry is a must for a phalanx army, but be careful, as I have noticed that sometimes your own cavalry gets skewered on your own sarissas when they are charging an enemy unit from the back when the enemy is already engaged with a phalanx. What kind of problems are you having with the phalanx anyway?
A good strategy for using the phalanx would be to put two and only two phalanxes in the exact same rectangular area, doubling the density of the pikes and making it even more difficult to break through. This strategy works the best in cities, where narrow streets eliminate flanking maneuvers and especially when you are either defending or attacking and using missiles to draw the enemy into your double phalanx. It is also useful in bridge battles and phalanx boxes. Just do not put more than two phalanxes in the same spot. Three phalanxes will be too much and the formation will become disorderly. Be sure to press "Backspace" when you see some of the phalangites switch to spears.
The phalanxes greatest weakness is ironically, the cavalry. Heavy cavalry is pretty much the only thing in EB that can break through the front of the phalanx. It will still be probably slaughtered, but your phalangites will take a huge beating. When engaging cavalry, it is best to put a phalanx and a spear unit right on top of each other. The sarissas will keep most of the cavalry out and the spearmen will slay the ones that manage to break through. What I have notices is that normal spearmen are actually better at killing cavalry.
I'm quite the opposite. Phalanxes operate the best in cities. I don't know what manner of pathfinding problems you are talking about, as I have experienced none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenic
P.S. I was still typing my first reply as you posted your comment. That should account for some redundancies in my reply, if there are any.
Eh...I'm pretty sure it can't.Quote:
Cavalry is a must for a phalanx army, but be careful, as I have noticed that sometimes your own cavalry gets skewered on your own sarissas when they are charging an enemy unit from the back when the enemy is already engaged with a phalanx. What kind of problems are you having with the phalanx anyway?
Yes, it can. I know it is hard to prove, but it has happened to me about four times during my RTW/EB experience. When one time my cavalry charged a unit that was already routing, right near the sarissas. They lost 5 horsemen and my general. A routing unit that is not fighting to death could not have done that. That was my pikes. I also had that happened when my cavalry was running away and it passes my phalanx. That unit lost 4 men. Not only this, bu I actually observed an enemy general losing 14 men to his own phalanx. It is very rare, but it happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
EDIT: If anyone who is reading this post had the aforementioned happen to them, please say so! This paranormal happening needs to be validated!!!
As far as killing your own cavalry with Sarissas, I think its just a very rare bug because I have had it happen to me once, but only once.
And while I agree that Aemilius' tactics are certainly effective (boxing multiple units atop one another for example), I tend to shy away from that because that's not plausible historically. Indeed, no offense to Aemilius, but I'd consider it an exploit really.
Aaand on the last note, the poor pathfinding I'm talking about with phalanxs mostly involves trying to actually get through a gate, though half of the time my phalanx will just do something stupid while I'm marching through the streets or engaging an enemy in urban combat. Bah...much easier to use the infantry designed for it!
it does happen. just like your archer units killing your own troops with friendly fire.
:laugh4: Yeah, I'm kinda big on the exploits! (reloading when losing battles, FMs dying of old age, failed agent mission, shooting in the backs of the units, using the battlefield borders as flanking guards - that me allright!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenic
I think anyone who's played as Saba or Hai well think phalanxs are like the supermen of EB. Once, I played as the Saba(it was my first try on something other then the Romani....) and it was all well and good won 22 or so battles till, the Gray death come from Babylon with a full stack of phalanxs :thumbsdown: and crush me in 5 or 6 major battles. The problem?:book: They had a invisable shield wall that makes it impossible to use any kind of projectile from the front.....and as the Saba you use mostly light skirmishers, hardly any match for something like a phalanx.:skull:(my first EB loss too....:shame:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
In this particular instance, it's actually historical. Phalangites could form a impenetrable pike-block called synaspis (locked shields) where individual soldiers stood at half the distance for their neighbours. However, this formation was immobile. And I agree that the R:TW engine is far too lax when it comes to stacking-penalties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenic
Incidentally, I have little problems with pathfinding in cities as long as I remember that the units should be less wide than the road (the pavement). That way they will generally stay in formation. And the A.I. often won't deviate from the road to attack my phalanx' flanks.
In battles against phalanx armies with your own lighter troops, you need to fight the battle at first as if the phalanx was not there, ie you go against the lighter troops first, constantly outmaneuvering the slowe rphalanx with your own light troops and cavalry. So you need superiority in heavy cavalry and missile troops. When the enemy troops supporting the phalanx are neutralized, you start to engage it. There it is advisble to have some heavy infantry yourself who can pin it, heavy infantry that waited for this moment.
If you are phalanx heavy on your own, you have to avoid the above scenario. Your light troops need to be protected by the phalanx and your own heavy infantry, and other devices like spreading out and heaving higher range, or better armored missile troops.
The phalanx is only a part in the clockwork that is your army.
Thank you all for the incite, but here are some more questions that came up. When facing a phalanx army, should my phalanx be on gaurd mode? Can a phalanx-based army be an offensive army effectevly? How do u lure the enemy into your line instead of your flanks? Thanks in advace.
Seen it, done it, myth confirmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus
Unless I am mistaken, having the guard mode off makes the soldiers making up the phalanx wander of in different directions. The phalanx army is pretty effective in offense. You simply have the whole line of phalanxes approach the enemy line and as so as one of the phalanx becomes engaged with an enemy units, you just stop the entire army and the enemy will come to you. The enemy usually goes for your front, but you can have a semi-box if you are worrying about flank attacks. In rtw.exe, the AI doesn't usually go wild with flanking maneuvers. Normally, having your missile units cause some casualties among the enemy will cause them to come to you, but not always.
When the enemy is on the defensive, they sometimes prefer to stay in the same place and just absorb the missile fire. In this case you can just do what I formerly said. Also, when the enemy is in such a defensive mode, it is nice if you have some heavy cavalry to charge them into the back. The AI is so dumb that it will actually allow your cavalry to go in its rear and will not respond unit the charge actually impacts one of their units. Even so, it rarely sends more than that charge-affected unit to pursue your horsemen.
That's funny, never ever happened to me in my entire RTW life (which spans about since the release now).Quote:
Seen it, done it, myth confirmed.
Maybe it happened during moments when you were busy with another unit/maneuver and simply didn't notice the casualties, perhaps dismissing them as normal losses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
actually, I agree with Aemilius here. your cavalry can be impaled by your sarissas. I've had more than a few cases of this happening-though casualties are lower than you'd expect (maybe one or 2 on average)
as long as the preference part is set on friendly fire, I believe that keeps it that way.
It happens a lot on XGM, but I've never had it in EB.
you must be darn lucky, statage.:yes: