Javelinmen - Usage and Deployment

Having just recently got VI and started with a Hungarian campaign, I find myself puzzled by the newly abundant javelin throwers (Jobbagy, Slav Javelinmen). Now, I'm under no illusion that I don't suck horribly, but still I really feel like even if I was a god of micromanagement, these unit types would still have a huge luck factor pretty much inherent to them. Sometimes I don't do absolutely anything fancy with them, and they manage to halve a full stack of Feudal Knights in a matter of seconds. Other times I can put all my skill to the test and still they seem to have extreme difficulties throwing as much as one javelin correctly, instead preferring to sit around looking at the sky until the chance has passed and the enemy is upon them or, worse, willingly charge into (obviously suicidal) hand-to-hand combat rather than use projectiles from afar. Thoughts? I do know to always put them on hold formation.

On another note, is there any place where I could find replays (for VI) of multiplayer matches between good players? Also, if any of you has any single-player battles that you consider particularly spectacular, I would be grateful if you let me take a peek :) Vantek_ at hotmail, if you are so kind. What I would especially like is carefully engineered battles. The problem with me is that I am godawful at micromanagement! I knowingly pass spots to improve my position just because I can't bother myself to do the mousework! At the same time, I simply adore good micromanagement, kind of how you admire the skill of proffessional athletes in action. Of course, I would also enjoy any battles with a surprise or strange twist or epic scale (think Golden Horde nightmares...) or something otherwise unusual to them. MTW battle engine is very fun to observe in action, I just suck at getting that to happen :P

Javelinmen are tricky but can be fun.

The way I started using javelins was to think of them as flankers that need time to set up their charge. At that point I used them against infantry, kind of as cheap anti-spear unit that causes damage before charging at the enemy. Sometimes I put them in front of my spears to catch a few overly bold horse archers that tried to get to the prime units behind the spear wall.

Using them against even engaged cavalry can be trickier, especially in the Early period, because a good cavalry unit can withstand contact even with Feudal spears for some time, and respond to your javelin deployment. There simply isn't quite as much time to set them up. If you're not quick enough, the spears might even break before the javelins finish deploying!

Maybe Javelins aren't quite a surefire unit: I agree with the randomness to some extent. Also, they only carry 4 javelins, after which they're just poor swordsmen (in most cases). After using their javelins they're not too useful against cavalry. They'll still work pretty nicely as Early period flankers, cheap and expendable.

On Early you don't get that many anti-cavalry infantry troops, so while being a bit tricky to use, they'll still cause more casualties than spearmen against knights. in many cases it's also cheaper to use them as anti-cavalry than your own cavalry. And if you lose a few or a few dozen, they're available everywhere.

Complex battles and javelinmen make me wish I had 4 more hands... For me they're trickier to use than Horse Archers. Well worth it in certain battles, though! And I like to use them as garrisons, because they're cheap and have that nice little bit of punch that can be used in a pinch.

Just a few hours ago I put my skills to the test, and sent eight stacks of Jobbagys (which I had used for random spam against the usual AI peasant hordes but just didn't need anymore) on a shore raid straight against the Khan himself, with about as many men of usual Golden Horde composition defending him, hoping to perhaps catch him with a lucky javelin.

I scored a whopping 22 kills, probably something like 3 heavy cavalry, 7 horse archers, and 12 foot soldiers. I'm pretty sure it would've been at least twice as much with autocalc... Probably about half of my soldiers routed, and every SINGLE one was captured, leaving me with an amusing 20:1 loss ratio.

This wasn't the only such attack, for some reason I really get a kick out of these "do your best with this worthless junk" battles. Too bad my frontline Inns are completely empty. In the other ones my Jobbagy were about as successful. Horse Archers, on the other hand, as long as I had a few stacks, usually scored at least one kill per face; admittedly largely due to AI's massive incompetence as all he'd have to do is go full frontal on me, but instead he lets me turn his units into an arrow cushion. Had too much fun with these crazy attacks... I also have about 1000 Armoured Spearmen/Chivalric Sergeants which I'm considering sending on suicide mission, wonder how that will go. Should've teamed them with my Jobbagys! Hope I won't be donating too much valour to my enemy =P

Quote:

---

For me they're trickier to use than Horse Archers.

---

MUUUUUCH trickier. Compared to javelin units, Horse Archers are about as easy to use as defending a bridge with a horde of Arbalesters is compared to Horse Archers. I still can't quite forget how they slaughtered that downhill unit of Feudal Knights caught with a screen, so my recent pathetic failures can't be caused by just them being useless.

Javelins are extremely powerful. The inhibitor of javelins is primarily the small ammo load and secondarily the short range - and this is a good thing. If it weren't for that, they would be very dangerous. A timed salvo from a unit of Murabitin Infantry/Slav Javelinmen/Spanish Javelinmen/etc can wipe out a good part of even the heaviest cavalry unit with one good salvo. The kill rate is quite high so if there is a dangerous armoured unit you need to hit and remove from the battle then javelins are the ideal way if deployed correctly, and protected.

I tend to deploy them just in front of the spear units with the skirmish mode turned off (this stops them moving out of position, making fools of themselves and getting killed). I also turn off the fire at will mode and simply attack the enemy by turning it back on once they're in the desired range. I get them out of danger by quickly deploying the spear ranks forward of them to keep them out of harms way.

Javelins can indeed be very deadly when utilized properly, although I admit the latter part can be tricky. (That's one reason I've always been so fond of Spanish Jinnettes -- they can quick loose a volley and then get the hell out of Dodge before anyone can engage them.)

Caravel's set-up is about the best I've come across thus far: Place them in front of your main formation, and then rush your front line forward (spears, pikes, etc.) once the enemy is close enough to threaten your javelin units. :yes:

How many ranks deep do you deploy them? Three?

I have recently been forced to deploy javelins versus light horse archers (in conjunction with actual archers, natch) & found a variation of Caravel's spearman/jav-man tactics works rather well. Especially if you have hordes of junk javelin men "given" to you via a crusade -- they eat the arrows destined for your good troops, keep the horsies occupied, & if you can sneak into position let loose a volley or two occasionally to decimate those pesky Turkomani! & if they run -- who cares! They're javelin-men!

Forests help a bit as well. I like to use them as flanker-counters in defensive battles. The enemy cavalry unit has to attack a spear unit in the flank, and while they're at it, the javelin unit slips to one of their flanks from a forest. Best not put them behind the cavalry, because they'll get charged by either the engaged unit or some other that the enemy sends to cover their failed flanking move.

I like this especially against Kataphraktoi.

A bit more fiddly way to use them from forests is in combination with a horse archer battle group: Again, in a defensive battle, the javelins (1-2 units) are placed a bit further away from the main battle line in one of my own formation's flanks, placed inside a forest. Usually with a cheap spearman-unit and sometimes with Woodsmen or the like. If the enemy is a bit hesitant in its attack, or has lots of horse archers, I'll try to lure part of the force to this low-tier infantry group.

They'll usually manage to handle a small number of units with the horse archers giving cover, and if the enemy decides to go after the small group, in many cases I can fold my main formation and strike at their formation's flank. If my main line is engaged by the enemy line, I can attack them from the flank/rear with a cheap combo with a high potential kill ratio!

If the javelin gamble fails, no problem - they're cheap and replacable!

So why not just pack the forest with 3 units of Steppe cavalry instead? I do sometimes. But they're not too useful against camels, and anyways not always available. Javelins and Spearmen are nice garrison units and by using them right, they can still turn the tide in a battle if you aren't able to bring your Jedi Tank Force with the elephant-impregnated 8* general.

EDIT:

I'm still new to using foot javelins, so I still fail sometimes. Too hesitant, too eager, etc. I still like them better than Early polearms or cavalry in anti-cav role, and they're faster than Halberdiers so they are maybe more suited for offensive use against cavalry, and to whittle away (after Archers of course) and mob FMAA on Early.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vantek

How many ranks deep do you deploy them? Three?

---

I think that the "line-of-sight" modifier is applied to javelins as well, though I must admit my memory is a bit clouded here. Basically, you want 2 ranks on flat and 3 on high ground to maximize volley potential.

Personally, I find javelin results very random, just like naphtas. They are situational and you can't depend on them too much. But in early they are pretty much the only armour-busting unit, and they do come cheap. :whip:

/KotR

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Knight of the Rose

I think that the "line-of-sight" modifier is applied to javelins as well, though I must admit my memory is a bit clouded here. Basically, you want 2 ranks on flat and 3 on high ground to maximize volley potential.

---

Excuse me, sorry I know this topic is getting dragged about like anything, but what's the "line-of-sight" modifier?

Do units who can't see & still shoot get a penalty, then?

Thanks...

Thread split off. :bow:

Quote:

---

I think that the "line-of-sight" modifier is applied to javelins as well, though I must admit my memory is a bit clouded here. Basically, you want 2 ranks on flat and 3 on high ground to maximize volley potential.

---

: O three ranks shoot on high ground?! I always thought it's 2 everywhere!! The reason I suggested 3 is that your javelinmen REALLY need to move around a lot and in two ranks they're just WAYYY too cumbersome. Is it really 3 on high ground? I've always deployed my arbalesters in 2... sigh...

The best way to deploy javelins is on boths flanks of a pinned enemy Huscarle unit.

:-P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

The best way to deploy javelins is on boths flanks of a pinned enemy Huscarle unit.

:-P

---

:laugh4:

And the best way to learn how to use javelins is to play the Irish VI campaign. :yes: Sink or swim!

I have grow to appreciate the javelin in defensive battles especially in the mountains. A few volleys while the enemy is slowly working uphill is worth bringing them. They are also fast enough to get off the field so you can bring up a decent replacement unit quickly.

Yeah I pack javelins as a standard, especially if I'm Hungary, coz Jobbagy are really good value.

My standard hill defence is a half-hex of spears or polearms, with javelins behind them on Engage-at-will, and my archers behind the javs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turbosatan

I have recently been forced to deploy javelins versus light horse archers (in conjunction with actual archers, natch) & found a variation of Caravel's spearman/jav-man tactics works rather well. Especially if you have hordes of junk javelin men "given" to you via a crusade -- they eat the arrows destined for your good troops, keep the horsies occupied, & if you can sneak into position let loose a volley or two occasionally to decimate those pesky Turkomani! & if they run -- who cares! They're javelin-men!

---

How do you get infantry javelins close enough (to skirmishing horse archers) to throw their missiles????

With proper terrain layout it can be done. All it takes is the HA's think you can't engage them in melee - skirmish doesn't take javelins into account. *Very* situational though, as with all javelin measures.

Try to get on a hill, or on the flank of the HA while it's peppering another unit.

/KotR

HAs can be also be lured to javelins. Give the HAs a juicy target, turn the archer units' fire at will off, and then tease the HAs to getting closer and closer to your line, while still targetting your bait unit. With a bit of luck they'll come to javelin range.

I suppose I've never considered using Javelins against HAs because I've always reserved my Javelins for use against the most dangerous armoured units. I would consider a volley against an HA unit as a waste of ammo when I can use vanilla archers or hybrid units instead.

To be fair, this was one way of actually using javs "when you have too many" from bribes or crusades. In general, I don't build more than one or two jav's per stack, and that is only if I don't have any other armour-buster.

/KotR

There will inevitably be situations where the armoured horses/infantry aren't a problem in a battle, either they have been taken out earlier or not even deployed by the AI. In these situations it's sometimes nice to use Javelins to damage HAs - saves the archer's ammo for another few salvos.

My garrisons are often packed with Javelinmen, so in some battles there are a lot of them waiting in the reinforcements. Might as well get as much as possible out of them - in defensive battles, cycle them before cycling archers! This means a bit more long range firepower for the rest of the battle.

This is all very interesting.

I rarely use Javelins, but will definitely give them a punt in VI. (As the Irish)

The reason I asked my question is that I've always found enemy Horse Archers to be extremely sensitive to proximity.

I just assumed that they'd bolt long before my javelins got into range.

Then again, I've had some decent success luring HAs into arquebus range, so I guess it's possible...

Just yesterday I caught the flank of a (granted, twice the normal size) unit of skirmishing Horse Archers with Halberdiers, out of all infantry. Sometimes they come very, very near, just a seconds' run. Usually they still manage to get away if you charge though. I guess it's a matter of how stupid the AI manages to be this time. I guess I personally wouldn't organise my battle plan around exploiting it, though I just can't help shooting enemy HAs to bits with my Arbalesters on attack. The dumbos call it upon themselves.

I've taken to deploying javelins in front of my archers,in 2 lines,on a hill if I can find one. Then when the enemy attacks,they get blasted by mass javs + archer fire..

I find that if you order a javelin unit to attack HAs they are aware of this and try to keep out of range. If you just march your javelins within missile range (but not too near) and leave them standing there on fire at will then they can attack them without their moving away.

For me to use javelins by luring enemies to them does not actually feel cheesy. More so if the enemy is silly enough to be flanked by spearmen or such. Also, if there are huge numbers of cheap HAs and you're going to win anyway...

Of course, it's all of personal preference. For me, they can shield the spear wall, buffer it and catch anyone coming too close with a few pointy sticks. Against heavy HA they don't need to be helped with someone luring them next to your battle line, they'll have a chance to do some damage anyway. Damn those Boyars and Szekely can sometimes make life difficult for you!

I have a vague recollection that I read somewhere that the Medieval Russian armies did use javelin infantry against horse archers and it was found effective. Of course it would be unfair to say "in the middle of a chaotic battle", because the player is usually completely aware of what's happening on the field, unlike a Medieval Mongol Horse Archer, who might have a limited field of view and a hard time seeing which type of peasant infantry they're getting too close to...

Then again, they were against mongols in many cases. Can't see how anyone who's used lots of javelin infantry against the Mongols could be seen as cheesy cheater :laugh4:

Of course my historical knowledge is limited, so don't take my word for it, though.

I always found it silly how the enemy reacts to which unit you've clicked on, not to what your units are doing otherwise. But that's ok, it's just how the system works.