An idea to factions

Guys, not sure if this has been discussed already, and it's old news, cause I've not read the entire faction thread, but have you seen what the members of the Dominion of the Sword mod intend to do with their faction list?

They have a a preview here that can explain it much better than I can on this thread:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=202600 (it's big,I know.)

Their system will, in a more or so limited way, allow them to circumvent the faction limit.


EDIT: Sorry, just found out you guys decided no to use emerging factions in any way. Saw on the first Stele. My apologies people.

Anyway, the DoS system is a brilliant idea.
I'd like to see something similar in EB.

Can anyone explain what they're trying to do?

I'm guessing the dual-campaign, 5 million faction limit thing that has been continually rejected.

Edit- I did look, but I can't open their 90 minute preview on this computer as it doesn't have MS Office.

In short, they will use one faction slot for multiple factions that can be formed during the game's course should the appropriate conditions be met. For example, Abbasid Caliphate can turn into Fatimid Caliphate in "Egypt" slot. Also, some factions will be emergent, like Serbia. ALL factions can re-emerge.

The presentation is very interesting and it is obvious that much work has been done in many aspects. IMO some ideas can be imported to EBII, with modifications that fit the period, of course. Their tech trees seem superb. Also, the use of Permament Forts is certainly the thing that could work in similar way in EBII with great efficiency and serve as immense addition to gameplay.

BTW, they will modify the walls so that siege engines can be deployed on them. Also, there is something about garrisoning buildings. Now, that could be interesting...

But...since the EB team has stated about 5 trillion times that there will be no emerging factions, what use can this actually be?

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Originally Posted by Cybvep

In short, they will use one faction slot for multiple factions that can be formed during the game's course should the appropriate conditions be met. For example, Abbasid Caliphate can turn into Fatimid Caliphate in "Egypt" slot.

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Do I put it correctly when I say that they use one faction slot to represent a different faction depending on what faction the player chooses? Similar to what the R:TR team is planning for R:TR 7? So you still end up with 30 factions, but one of these is different depending on what faction you play? Because I don't think it is possible to change the faction that is using a slot while a campaign is running, even if that faction is not currently present on the map.

Given how much time the EB team pours into their faction, I don't think they will be enthusiastic about creating 29 additional factions, only one of which will appear in any single campaign.

Indeed, IIRC the EB team has rejected the idea more than once.

Yeah people, as I said, my apologies for bringing an old topic to the the table again.

However, I think some other ideas can come from the same preview, like Cybvep stated before.

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Do I put it correctly when I say that they use one faction slot to represent a different faction depending on what faction the player chooses? Similar to what the R:TR team is planning for R:TR 7? So you still end up with 30 factions, but one of these is different depending on what faction you play? Because I don't think it is possible to change the faction that is using a slot while a campaign is running, even if that faction is not currently present on the map.

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No, they gave factions more generic, universal names and allowed them to "reform" into other entities with consequences in traits (e.g. titles), changes in tech tree and available unit roster, so in fact there is a great change, but name stays the same. It's more like a great reform, but for many factions. It's supposed to represent changes in those factions during the very long period, because the mod allows the player to manage his/her faction from XIth to the beginning of XVIth century (sic). IMO it's a great feature, as sooooo many changes happened to all those factions during that time, that this is the least and at the same time the most, because of the engine limits, modders can do to represent factions' situation appropriately. Playing with Abbasids for five centuries in ALL games would be plain wrong.

To put it simply, you play with your faction and you change it during your time spent with it. Something similar is in place in Europa Universalis series. You can change Aragon/Castille to Spain. You can form Italy. You can form Germany. In the mentioned mod this can also happen, just without the change in name.

That's it.
DoS could be one of the best mods/games ever.
Their preview is incredible, epic, homeric...

So I'd like to see some of their brilliant ideas implemented in EBII, to make it even better than it seems.


I'm only waiting now for three mods like a junkie waiting for his dose, EBII, DoS and the fantastic and nerdy Third Age:TW.
But the waiting is so long.
:whip:

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Originally Posted by Cybvep

To put it simply, you play with your faction and you change it during your time spent with it. Something similar is in place in Europa Universalis series. You can change Aragon/Castille to Spain. You can form Italy. You can form Germany. In the mentioned mod this can also happen, just without the change in name.

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Thanks for the information. It certainly sounds intriguing, although I am not sure how compatible it will be with EB's time-frame and complexity.

Well, there are certainly vast possibilities with KH, as it's probably the most abstract "faction" in the game. Rome has its own reforms, and IIRC team members stated that they would like to properly represent the changes that had taken place between IIIrd and Ist centuries BC. Rome wasn't the same city all the time...

Also, since MTW2's "building" system makes no sense at all, as it is both too specific and too limited at the same time (you build something like "Stables" and at the same time can only build one structure at the time), they will probably expand their ideas from EBI, where players weren't really constructing singular buildings, but whole complexes. We've even seen some laws/ideas/actions as buildings, such as "Grant of Land", "Coastal Clearing" or even government systems. That was both great and refreshing, but the idea can be taken further. Why keep "buildings" at all? Turn the buildings into tech tree, your source of social, economical, cultural and military development! Allow players and AI to customize their governments. Slow down the construction of roads by both increasing the costs and time required and introducing new "Pathway Preparations" (or sth like that), inland equivalent of "Coastal Clearing", but on a much greater scale.

Reforms were cool in EBI. MTW2 will only make introducing them easier, as "events" are moddable. Also, new reforms can, of course, be introduced. Cultural ones are especially inspiring, like the reform available to Pahlava. The more options there are, the better. Some of them are almost essential, like the possibility of hellenization of the Dacians and Thracians.

In terms of traits, we've already seen a great system in EB. I'm sure, however, that MTW2 offers new possibilities, especially with the changes that can be made to events. What immediately comes to my mind is the greater interaction with the locals. DoS will make some regions more "autonomous" than other ones, so that the player won't be allowed to choose what units and structures are "built" in those regions. Also, vassals may rebel against their seniors and decide not to aid them in their wars. What a great possibility for the Socii system (or other "IV" types of government).

All these are of course merely suggestions and speculations. Unfortunately, we don't know what the team plans to do in EBII. While waiting for new information, however, we can discuss things and point fingers at right or simply interesting directions.

It is a nice discovery, though, and certainly has some its uses (albeit not in EBII). :yes:

Just remind me, how to erase those Interlooper traits? if My Family member's army need to be retrained in any allied cities, does it make sense to let the royalty wait outside the city in a chilling winter with just his Bodyguards as friends, and most of his peasant army enjoy hot cofee, sweet pastries, and a lot of cheap women in hotels dormitory army mess? Oh I got the point, how to add a new building called "Royalty's Hotel" so the Interlooper's trait won't occur because that prince was not sit down in any of the governing buildings, just roleplaying that the Prince is sleeping in 5 star Hotel with a lot of virgins booked only for Him... makes sense, huh?:clown:

Recent issue of "The Eagle Standard" from TWC features an interview with the member of DoW team. Anyway, it has a nice and clear explanation of the faction's "transition" feature...

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2) You’ve got many factions listed in your FAQ thread, how do you plan on keeping each one looking and playing differently?

Well, playing and looking different hasn’t been the hard part really- it’s been deciding what to include and what to drop. We received a lot of critique for how long we took to develop our ideas- but if you look at our current list you can see why. We found a solution to excluding certain factions by combining factions into single slots. We call them Transitions, in this way many unit, trait and tech tree options can change for a faction within the game due to either scripted triggers or based on how you play- and these represent dynastic changes or important historical changes. It’s been a headache but we are really proud of our achievements.


3) Transitions, this sounds really cool and a wonderful way to fix an issue that often plagues modders. Could you give an example of how this works, perhaps mention a faction and a transition within that faction?

-A basic one might be the Great Seljuks, if a general with a Khwarezm tribal trait comes to the throne of the faction it will trigger a set of changes to make the faction appear as though it has developed into a Khwarezm faction. Titles, offices, units and buildings will all change to represent a predominant Khwarezm rule. Secondly, when the Mongols enter the eastern map border (probably as rebel stacks) and come into this faction's lands a script will trigger and the player will be asked if he will bow down to Mongol rule or fight. Fighting will not be a good idea, although it will be possible. Accepting Mongol rule will trigger a massive insurge of cash, units and Mongol nobles. The availability of buildings and units will also change to become Mongol rather than Seljuk or Khwarezm. However, since the new Mongol nobles have entered into the faction, some of the old Seljuk nobles are still loyal to the old regime and will rebel. So you will gain a lot of power but at a price, since you may well lose your old faithful men and some control points (PSFs and settlements) along with them.

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I like the look of that second one. And that's just a basic one.
However, EB it about forging history, not recreating it. So we'd have to be quite picky about what we choose to script, and what we choose not to.

The immediate one that comes to mind would be one for the KH that's based on who is in power. You can even adjust loyalty for all the other city states if the Spartans lead the league or if Macedonia is gone. You can hellenize the Thracians. You can sim the Saka invasion of Baktria and India. You could also do it for Parthia. This is really neat.