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So, since my only experience of combat with ships comes from Pirates!, I wonder if there are any well known strategies from naval engagements one should know about. Did fleets form lines like in land battles in any way?
Do you have to broadside to fire your cannons and does that in turn leave you open to fire?
Is it best to attack with the wind so to speak?
How significant is boarding other ships in this time period?
Huzzah! I like boats and naval battles, so this thread is excellent.
Naval Tactics 101
Preparing for the battle
It's best if you can manouvre yourself so that the enemy fleet is facing the wind and your own ships have the wind behind them. This is known as having the weather gage.
Having the wind behind you allows your ships to travel faster and turn faster, and allows you to decide how quickly the battle is met.Quote:
From Wikipedia: The weather gage is a nautical term used to describe the advantageous position of a fighting sailing vessel, relative to another. A ship is said to possess the weather gage if it is in any position, at sea, upwind of the other vessel.
Before a major battles the smaller support ships (supply sloops, messenger ships, ammo barges and similar craft) would either be taken aboard the larger ships or would sail away to a safe area.
Beginning the Battle
In the majority of naval battles ships would form a 'line of battle'. Any ship big enough to fight in a line of battle is known as a 'ship of the line.' The line of battle is formed by the ships sailing towards the enemy in a long line, their port and starboard sides facing allied ships. When your line of battle meets the enemy line, turn all of your ships to the left or right so that their broadsides are all now facing the enemy. If the enemy is in range then fire away!
Specific Tactics
Crossing the 'T'
This is where a ship uses the weather gage advantage or superior manouverablilty to sail itself into a position where it can fire a broadside directly at the enemy ships bow (the front bit).This gives you the advantage of being able to fire without recieving significant fire in return. It is so called because the enemy ship is the stalk of the T and your ship is the line across the top.
Doubling Up
This is where you use superior numbers or an advantage gained through skillful positioning to allow two of your ships to fire on the enemy at once. Basically it means getting a ship of yours on either side of one of the enemy ships. This works incredibly well if you manage to pull off a double 'T' crossing thus leading to a shape like a capital I. Fire from both fore and aft will very very quickly devastate a ship.
Boarding
Boarding was not uncommon in battles of the time. Pirates especially fought specifically to board an enemy ship, as did many privateers or warships attacking enemy cargo vessels.
Before boarding be sure to cripple the enemy ship. From a distance shoot out the sails and mast using 'chain shot'. This is shot that is made from two havles of a cannonball linked with a length of chain. It rips sails and cuts masts and rigging. Doing this kills the enemy ships speed and monoeverabilty and prevents them escaping.
Next get into close range and cross the enemy ships T. Fire a full boradside of 'grapeshot'. These are little balls the size of a grape that are loaded into a cannon in large numbers. It acts like a giant shotgun and ise used to kill crew without significantly damaging the enemy vessel. Once the crew has beend epleted the enemy may surender. If they do not then do the following: Pull up alongside her. Throw over grapples and pull your ship in close. Move boarding planks into position and attack! Afterwards you can scuttle the ship, destroying it. You could also take it as a 'prize', the term for a captured vessel.
Hope that helped! :2thumbsup: And feel free to ask more questions about the tactics of the time.
Naval Tactics 101!
Hay! That’s my course and I have tenure! Even if they made you assistant dean…:inquisitive:
:laugh4:
Anyway about battle lines.
You can form a line abreast or a line ahead. The line abreast puts all your ships side by side but also could make them vulnerable to a rake if you don’t turn in time. The advantage is that rather than turning one ship to the enemy when you get into range, you have them all ready to turn.
The line ahead is where they all play follow the leader.
In both you have the trouble of faster and slower ships being separated and as they are wind powered you have to find means to keep them together by adjusting sail etc.
Being down wind, as the French most often chose will allow you to meet the enemy coming into range and will also allow you an avenue of escape if you are out gunned.
Forming a second line of faster ships may also be advantageous, but let your heavy ships engage the enemy before committing the lighter vessels. The enemy likely lacks enough crew to fire both sides of their ships and the faster lighter ship have a chance to do damage without as much risk.
I'll leave the course to you then, professor :bow:. Can I at least still teach Piracy 101? It's my specialty after all. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
You are most welcome to move on to 102 or any others and yes piracy is your specialty so have at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Beane
I’ll stick to 101 and remedials except for Advanced Frigate Employment 428. All others are yours.
I shall especially be looking forward to your course on Heavy Metals Abatement from the Spanish Fleet.
The British in particular were very wary of long range firing and preferred to get up close and personal before firing.
They were in general much more aggressive in action than say the French, whose captains were keener on completing their assigned missions.
In fact the British were so suspicious of captains/admirals that didn't engage they shot/hung (can't remember) at least one during our period, many more were accused of cowardice.
On the campaign map, the British found that they started to dominate the French navy after they became skilled enough to have ships continuously cruising off the western approaches to France.
Even if you missed the ships on the way out from France they had to come back some time to repair, re-supply, refit.
No need to chase them round the world, it also meant if there's going to be any funny business in the channel you can get down there quickly, using the prevailing winds (although I doubt these will be represented in the game).
In fact the British got so good at this they used to have all the naval ports on France's western cost under close blockade in all weathers.
Naval pinch points are also important, places like Gibralter, South Africa The Falklands, Singapore are all in areas where shipping lanes become crowded in to a small area. You can dominate the world from, these places.
You mean Admiral John Byng
That was a sad one!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byng
Admiral Robert Calder was court-martialed for not a big enough win against a larger foe.
There may be others…
It was much more political than military/naval when those actions were taken.
Great input!
Ship on ship stuff like grape shot and chain shot are things that I have mastered in Pirates!. I usually found ships like the Sloop of War to be most suitable to piracy because they could manouver into the eye of the wind better than larger ships, but they had a small crew capacity which necessitated a heavy bombardment with grapeshots, after some with chain shot if necessary, prior to boarding, which sometimes damages the prize. A Brig, I think, was the best of two worlds, fairly easy to manouver and could carry a good number of scurvy non-land-lubbers (and more guns!).
The main points I've made out so far seems to be:
Having the wind at your back will aid you in an engagement, if you win. But if you must withdraw, it may be your doom. Shoot at the fore or aft if you can, no return fire.
As for which mechanichs may be included in the game we can only speculate... I've seen varying heights of waves having impact on the capability of different sizes of ships mentioned in another thread, which I guess might not be included, along with depth of the water.
A defensive measure in Pirates! is to turn right as your enemy fires, so the projectiles misses (overshooting or hitting the water where you would have been). I wonder if that will be in the game, or if it's even very realistic? How much time would you have to avoid a cannon ball?
What do you think the chances are of grape/chain shot being included? How about upgrades a'la Pirates! such as iron scantlings?
In Pirates!, the wind was usually very predictable, blowing from one direstion most of the time. Travel in the opposite direction was substantially slower. Seems like a simple thing to implement, I hope CA did because it would perhaps add a strategic element to the naval campaign map. I guess it's too much to hope for that sailing in certain directions would grant you lesser movement than others.
Do you think seizing enemy vessels will have any role in game?
The best ship in ETW will definitely be the top of the line First Rate Man o' wars. Manouverability is useful, but in Empire you'll never be able to win with with a small ship like a Brig or Sloop. Mostly because you'll be fighting bigger ships in ETW, and more of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Guy
Realisitically, if you were within the standard engagement range I think dodging a full broadside by turning would have involved a either a very fast ship and skilled helmsman, or a great deal of luck. I think a cannonball would be travelling at close to the speed of sound after immediately exiting the cannon. Dodging it would have involved moving before the enemy fired. If they have already fired you haven't got a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Guy
Grape and chain shot are 100% confirmed to be in the game, and a key part of the game at that. More exotic shot hasn't been mentioned (aside from rockets for rocket ships). Personally I would like to see heated shot and explosive bombs being used.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Guy
On the battlemap atleast sailing against the wind will slow you down, it won't stop you completely however (it would in real life). Sailing at a slight angle to the wind behind you will make you go fastest (which is realistic). Tacking (sailing across the wind one way and then back the other way, has been confirmed to make your ship go faster against the wind (again realistic). That's all the just on the battlemap of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Guy
CA haven't said anything about wind on the campaign map, although it seems a sensible idea.
Taking enemy vessels is possible, and you can then add them to your fleet. CA have also said that if you take a ship with technology you don't have you can reverse-engineer that technology and use it for yourself! :2thumbsup:
I know the first thing I'm going to do is start a skirmish battle with two of the largest ships of the line possible, then ram them together. Possibly with a sloop between them.
I'm sure the crew of your fine ships will regard you as a splendid admiral. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheogorath
The strategy shall henceforth be known as Sheogorath's Sloop Sandwich Manouvre. Bonus points if the sloop is an enemy one. :2thumbsup:
Heh. To be completely honest, ramming will be my primary goal in naval battles. It's gonna be awesome!
Remember, the main goal of military conflicts is to have huge casualties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Beane
It's a pleasant bonus if they're enemy casualties :gring:
Man...if CA has accurate ramming modeled...I dunno. I'll die and go to heaven while being alive and well in front of my computer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megas Methuselah
Just the thought of two large ships of the line colliding, accurately modeled on my computer screen...ah...:loveg:
Is there any chance that the weather might change within the battle? Perhaps it may start out a bit rough but maybe a storm could kick up which could make it a fight against nature as well as against each other.
I believe I read in a preview that weather can change during a battle.:sweatdrop: You may think you have the weather gage and life is good, only to have a storm kick up and screw everything up.:furious3: That would be great.:wall:
:dizzy2:You Admirals may want to rethink all the ramming and carnage in other than your first staged battle. It is pretty likely that ship damage will carry over from battle to battle right along with crew size. On top of that the coast of repairs not to mention time might be a factor.
It would be a shame to see you loose a first rate and a couple of 3 rates to an inferior fleet with full crews and less damage.:inquisitive:
Navies do a lousy job of controlling sea lanes if they are in port for repairs. A weaker fleet with an invasion force is just as dangerous or more than the fleet you just beat, so take the long view of what is happening. The AI might just surprise you and there is always the 1 on 1 Campaign.:laugh4:
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As to other special ammunitions; hot shot could only be fired from shore, it was too dangerous for ships to heat shot. I think the French lost a few ships trying. :oops:
Explosive shells were usually high trajectory rounds fired by mortars and howitzers. A bomb ketch would have them but that is a small ship not so handy in ship to ship combat. Rocket ships were also primarily used for shore bombardment, but in the game we will just have to see…:yes:
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Is anyone else hoping you can tech up to a 42lb pivot gun with a 180° arc of fire? “One Hit-One Kill” ARRRG!:captain:
~:cheers:
I definetly want to see versatile carronades, both to wipe the other ships deck clean of mean before boarding with grape shot and to make bloomin' massive holes in the sides of enemy ships with large but low velocity shot!
Imagine the carnage if two full fleets of twenty ships all try and occupy the same patch of sea at the same time. Glorious! :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheogorath
CA have mentioned that ships simply won't fight during a full storm, because historically it would have been very very difficult. A storm is dangerous enough that you wouldn't have any time to consider dealing with an opponent, even in larger ships. Plus the waves and poor visibility would ruin your chances of hitting them with cannon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Invictus
We do know we can fight during rain, snow and at night however, going by screenshots.
I remember the old Akella game POTC, where you could battle another ship during a lightning storm and even whilst giant waterspout tornado as ravaging your ship. Unrealistic but fun. :2thumbsup:
The Russians managed to pull it off. However, everyone knows they don't care how many casualties they suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Did they really?
How did they manage? Or were there many sinkings as a result?
On larger ships I think it was possible to use a small furnace on deck to heat some shot. I know that many ships carried such a furnace in order to repair metal weaponry. It was a time consuming process however, best suited for special operations such as attempting to set a fort on fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherking
Carcass shells were hollow cannonballs with holes, stuffed with incendiary material. The carcass was then set alight, loaded into a cannon stuffed with rag, and fired. This was often untilised by warships attempting to burn a town or fort.
Did they ever get that English General Shrapnel's invention on ships?
Bloody marvellous when it worked on infantry using standard artillery on land.
Could someone tell me what will happen if I use my ship of line and ram the enemy ship with it?? I mean that I ram some ship when their side is in front of me and to prevent them firing it would be more reasonable to ram than try to turn my ship??
Which ship will get more damaged??
Ramming wasn't really advantageous to either ship. When two ships of similar size collided, unless they were travelling at high speed, not a lot of damage would occur. However it was possible for masts and rigging to become entangled, locking the two ships together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn-Khaldun
A larger ship could probably 'run over' a smaller ship with minimal damage to itself.
Ramming the side of the enemy ship with the front of yours would probably have resulted in snapping off your figurehead and forward mast, as well as possibly damaging your own keel.
Unless your ship is specifically built to ram others ramming was never a very good idea really. It was usually a last ditch effort by a ship on fire to sink an enemy, or used by ships full of gunpowder to attempt to blow up the enemy.
Ramming is certainly not in vogue at the time the game is being played and more importantly ships are not designed for it.
Plus if you wreck your keel your are royally screwed and you have a good chance of that when ramming.
Canon damage on the other hand can be relatively easily patched up and you can send the ship back out to sea in good working order quite quickly. A damaged keel on the other hand means taking the ship out of water...and that is the real difference when it comes to repairs.
I wasn't suggesting ramming as anything but a last ditch tactic for serious battles :P
It'll be interesting if CA includes fireships, though. One of the few sorts of ships that were actually used for ramming. Plus the idea of a ship loaded with everything flammable and explosive people could get their hands on and then sent sailing off into the enemy fleet appeals to me :gring:
Fire Ships!
That is a good way to break the line of the enemy! I am sure it would be wise to keep a few Sloops at hand if that were a desirable tactic in the situation but best used against a fleet at anchor.
I feel sure it will be an option if you care to sacrifice a ship.
Look at the battle of trafalger and battle of gravelines(grave-leene whatever gravelines sounds better)
from what i understand trafalger did involve some genius, or just luck.
Well, it would be fun in the game, but not a great idea as an actual tactic, even a last-ditch one. As AussieGiant mentioned, it doesn't do you any good if both ships are taking on water from sprung timbers and start sinking after the ram. The Greeks were big into ramming and had ships designed for it, but they were fighting coastal actions, usually in sight of land. Out in the deep ocean you really want to think twice about anything that would risk hull integrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheogorath
The design of a square-rigger's bow is the opposite of what you'd want in a ramship. The bowsprit and its rigging is likely to get caught up in the rigging of the enemy ship or snap off, slowing you down before the two hulls make any contact.
Another problem with ramming for ships of this era (the main one, really) is that you'd be intentionally setting yourself up on the wrong end of a "crossing the T" maneuver. On approach, you'd have an enemy broadside raking the length of your deck and no way to shoot back, except for maybe a dinky bow chaser. In a boarding action, you can come alongside and trade fire. You have the full length of the ship available to get your men onto the other ship.
Yeah, sacrificial fireships are a different case. On the other hand, this being a strategy game as well as fighting tactical battles, I would hope CA is building in some incentives on the strategic side to capture enemy ships as prizes, instead of just sinking and blowing up everything. If the battles are at all realistic, there should be enough sinkings, explosions, unintentional ramming, and other mayhem happening in the chaos of battle anyway!Quote:
It'll be interesting if CA includes fireships, though. One of the few sorts of ships that were actually used for ramming. Plus the idea of a ship loaded with everything flammable and explosive people could get their hands on and then sent sailing off into the enemy fleet appeals to me :gring:
The main concern I have about this game (which I've ranted about before), is the way they're allowing square-rigged ships to sail directly upwind, which is just completely unrealistic and could seriously affect the tactics. They're apparently making ships go faster in the points of sail where they should go faster (square-riggers on a run, sloops on a reach), which might mean both the player and the AI have an incentive to use tacking instead of just telling ships to "go to point X" in a straight line, regardless of wind direction. Maybe it will work... although if they've eliminated the whole concept of "going into irons" as a square-rigged ships tacks across the wind without enough forward momentum, then that removes a big tactical element already. I just hope we don't see completely unrealistic maneuvers like circling tail chases.
I sure hope there's a demo that includes sail combat.
As to ramming;
Has anyone mentioned that the masts and spars tend to come down on deck? So if you don’t spring a leak and flood you are still dismasted and hung up on the other ship and could get pulled under anyway.
When the model the physical effects of shot & shock do you think they may have missed entanglement.
Hay but in a staged battle that you don’t stand to loose a major asset, why not try it just so you can see what a bad idea it really is?